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IDEXAN
01-16-2013, 11:11 AM
“The hurry-up, again we weren’t fully prepared for some reason,” said outside linebacker Brooks Reed, who didn’t play in the first matchup because of a groin injury. “It’s extremely hard to get the call in and line up when they are going hurry-up. They’re not going to wait for you. They’ve got plays planned out and one audible and they’ve got their play ready. Whereas we’ve got to get the call from the sideline, get lined up, recognize the formation.

“It takes us a lot more time to get lined up than they do. That’s the challenge and again that’s what kind of got us today. And making plays too, it’s them making plays not just them hurrying up. I think we could have been a little bit more prepared. We knew that was going to happen. We saw it on film, them lining up quick and defenses not being ready. We didn’t think it was going to be us and in some cases today it was.”
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/tag/_/name/brooks-reed
******
That's a pretty candid remark by Reed, but it tells us something - Wade Phillips is not perfect.

Mr teX
01-16-2013, 11:15 AM
“The hurry-up, again we weren’t fully prepared for some reason,” said outside linebacker Brooks Reed, who didn’t play in the first matchup because of a groin injury. “It’s extremely hard to get the call in and line up when they are going hurry-up. They’re not going to wait for you. They’ve got plays planned out and one audible and they’ve got their play ready. Whereas we’ve got to get the call from the sideline, get lined up, recognize the formation.

“It takes us a lot more time to get lined up than they do. That’s the challenge and again that’s what kind of got us today. And making plays too, it’s them making plays not just them hurrying up. I think we could have been a little bit more prepared. We knew that was going to happen. We saw it on film, them lining up quick and defenses not being ready. We didn’t think it was going to be us and in some cases today it was.”
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/tag/_/name/brooks-reed

Yep, Wade got exposed in both of the Pats games...no excuse for all the confusion and guys walking into the end zone untouched. Part of that is the element of surprise, the other part of it is substituting guys. Playing against veteran teams and qbs who do that, you've got to pick and choose when you sub.

Playoffs
01-16-2013, 11:19 AM
Yep, we were out coached on that. I think Wade even admitted that. Other players said it was chaos out there at times.

Double Barrel
01-16-2013, 11:25 AM
It appears that neither the Texans defense nor Texans offense have any hurry up abilities this season.

I blame coaching for this lack of preparedness. Wade saw it a few weeks ago, but the defense did not adjust to it.

And Gary should have had the offense ready to take advantage of the opposing defense and mismatches, as well as be prepared to play catch up as most of us already knew that the Texans would most likely be playing from behind.

Are our coaches that stubborn? I do not believe they are incompetent, so the only thing I can think of is that they are too stubborn to adapt.

Vinny
01-16-2013, 11:28 AM
It appears that neither the Texans defense nor Texans offense have any hurry up abilities this season.

I blame coaching for this lack of preparedness. Wade saw it a few weeks ago, but the defense did not adjust to it.

And Gary should have had the offense ready to take advantage of the opposing defense and mismatches, as well as be prepared to play catch up as most of us already knew that the Texans would most likely be playing from behind.

Are our coaches that stubborn? I do not believe they are incompetent, so the only thing I can think of is that they are too stubborn to adapt.
Sometimes it feels like we are what amounts to the kids who have to ride in their Father's Amish buggies all the while yearning to be in one of those exotic sports cars that casually pass you by on the road into town. I have mentioned in he past that the NFL moves fast, but this franchise seems to be a step behind and a little slower moving much of the time.

Dread-Head
01-16-2013, 11:32 AM
Clock management...and when in doubt on a quick snap, give Wes Welker (or that other insufferable dwarf receiver) a helmet to the face. They have to stop the clock for the referee conference to discuss the penalty assessment which is PLENTLY of time to get lined up and if you hit the muff-hugga HARD enough you've assured he's not going to be involved in the next play. Sometimes you TAKE the penalty.

Double Barrel
01-16-2013, 11:40 AM
Sometimes it feels like we are what amounts to the kids who have to ride in their Father's Amish buggies all the while yearning to be in one of those exotic sports cars that casually pass you by on the road into town. I have mentioned in he past that the NFL moves fast, but this franchise seems to be a step behind and a little slower moving much of the time.

It does make you wonder if McNair is looking in the NFL's rear-view mirror to emulate previous successful dynasties too much. He might be lacking the vision to see big picture evolution in the NFL, much to the detriment of required deviation that continuous success demands.

"Old school" coaches like Belichick see the evolution and adapt accordingly. His team is winning games today in a much different way than they were winning games in 2002. Rule changes and player evolution is changing the game. Young head coaches like Jim Harbaugh are dynamic because they understand the on-going evolution. Adapt or go extinct.

Reminds me of that documentary about Tom Landry. Dude was a genius innovator, and so much of the league at the time was stuck in the 1950's power run game that his schemes seemed exotic and unrealistic to his peers. In hindsight, however, we see him for the true genius that made the NFL a better overall game. Now his perspectives and innovations are considered fundamentals in football. By the same way, today's innovations and evolution will be perceived the same way decades from now.

The NFL is clearly morphing into a very offense-friendly league. Hopefully the Texans can keep up.

Luv_ya_blue
01-16-2013, 11:42 AM
Offensive Coaching + Defensive Coaching + Special Teams Coaching = :faildetector:

Dread-Head
01-16-2013, 11:43 AM
It does make you wonder if McNair is looking in the NFL's rear-view mirror to emulate previous successful dynasties too much. He might be lacking the vision to see big picture evolution in the NFL, much to the detriment of required deviation that continuous success demands.

"Old school" coaches like Belichick see the evolution and adapt accordingly. His team is winning games today in a much different way than they were winning games in 2002. Rule changes and player evolution is changing the game. Young head coaches like Jim Harbaugh are dynamic because they understand the on-going evolution. Adapt or go extinct.

Reminds me of that documentary about Tom Landry. Dude was a genius innovator, and so much of the league at the time was stuck in the 1950's power run game that his schemes seemed exotic and unrealistic to his peers. In hindsight, however, we see him for the true genius that made the NFL a better overall game. Now his perspectives and innovations are fundamentals.

(cough) StoletheflexdefensefromVinceLombardi...(cough) I'll give Landry his due, but Knoll was his superior.

Double Barrel
01-16-2013, 11:44 AM
(cough) StoletheflexdefensefromVinceLombardi...

You, my friend, are about to have a serious conversation with infantrycak in your near future. :fortune:

p.s. Vince might have invented it, but Tom perfected it.

Runner
01-16-2013, 11:57 AM
"We weren't prepared". When has that NOT been one of the excuses after a loss?

Too bad the team isn't prepared to find coaches who will prepare the team for the big games.

Mr teX
01-16-2013, 12:01 PM
yeah, its just ironic that the team we lost to constantly has players saying "we were prepared" in regards to their coach after big wins.

Honoring Earl 34
01-16-2013, 12:03 PM
(cough) StoletheflexdefensefromVinceLombardi...(cough) I'll give Landry his due, but Knoll was his superior.

Landry was the DC with the Giants and Lombardi was the OC with the Giants . Landry had the defensive background . I thought Lombardi was not so much the innovator as he was the the guy who made sured you were prepared for anything on a given play .

I kinda think Wade's wishy washy I wanna be a head coach again wore then with the troops . I don't believe that Cushing's injury was the reason the defense regressed that much . :pinned:

Mr. White
01-16-2013, 12:06 PM
Honest question:

Is any defense ever really ready for the hurry-up offense? If so, how does a DC prepare for it?

Luv_ya_blue
01-16-2013, 12:09 PM
Honest question:

Is any defense ever really ready for the hurry-up offense? If so, how does a DC prepare for it?

Waaay before you get to the field, that's how. Prepare in the film room and coaching what to do in a given situation. The problem was preparation meets execution.

They neither knew situationally that the hurry-up was coming nor did they know how to execute a defense once it was in front of them.

Wade is being groomed under the Kubiak Denny's Menu school of football play calling. The primary breakdown was with Wade...not with the players. JMO

Dread-Head
01-16-2013, 12:10 PM
Honest question:

Is any defense ever really ready for the hurry-up offense? If so, how does a DC prepare for it?

The Buffalo Bills were renoun for their hurry up offense in the 80s as were the Broncos. Q: How many Superbowls did the Bills and Broncos win in the 80s? Each had four trips, but how many did they win?

A: ZER0

dream_team
01-16-2013, 12:15 PM
Honest question:

Is any defense ever really ready for the hurry-up offense? If so, how does a DC prepare for it?

One way is for the defense to call a timeout.

But like the other poster said, it's all about preparation in practice and the film room. They should have had a base defense ready to go whenever in that situation, especially if in the red zone.

dream_team
01-16-2013, 12:17 PM
The Buffalo Bills were renoun for their hurry up offense in the 80s as were the Broncos. Q: How many Superbowls did the Bills and Broncos win in the 80s? Each had four trips, but how many did they win?

A: ZER0

The difference is the Bills ran it ALL the time. Doing it once or twice a game to catch the defense off guard is quite effective.

Vinny
01-16-2013, 12:18 PM
It does make you wonder if McNair is looking in the NFL's rear-view mirror to emulate previous successful dynasties too much. He might be lacking the vision to see big picture evolution in the NFL, much to the detriment of required deviation that continuous success demands.

"Old school" coaches like Belichick see the evolution and adapt accordingly. His team is winning games today in a much different way than they were winning games in 2002. Rule changes and player evolution is changing the game. Young head coaches like Jim Harbaugh are dynamic because they understand the on-going evolution. Adapt or go extinct.



The NFL is clearly morphing into a very offense-friendly league. Hopefully the Texans can keep up.You mention Jim Harbaugh and Bill Belichick...nothing in those teams seem stuck in "systems". We seem a slave to our system while other teams build systems around their talent. Hell, for an offensive guru, Kubiak can't even run a hurry up offense. While we patiently wait for things to come our way via patience, guys like Andre Johnson are at the end of their careers.

The Buffalo Bills were renoun for their hurry up offense in the 80s as were the Broncos. Q: How many Superbowls did the Bills and Broncos win in the 80s? Each had four trips, but how many did they win?

A: ZER0 30 other teams didn't make the Championship games in those 8 years. Sure, zero SB wins but 8 years times 30 teams = there were 240 other missed opportunities for the other NFL teams. Tons of innovation from those Bills teams are still used today. Broncos couldn't win a SB without Elway. Didn't before, haven't since.

Playoffs
01-16-2013, 12:21 PM
Honest question:

Is any defense ever really ready for the hurry-up offense? If so, how does a DC prepare for it?

Typically add a DB or two & drop LBs because you can't change personnel, then get the freaking play calls immeadiately, and make sure your conditioning is top notch because your guys are going to get gassed.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2013, 12:22 PM
Landry was the DC with the Giants and Lombardi was the OC with the Giants . Landry had the defensive background . I thought Lombardi was not so much the innovator as he was the the guy who made sured you were prepared for anything on a given play .

I kinda think Wade's wishy washy I wanna be a head coach again wore then with the troops . I don't believe that Cushing's injury was the reason the defense regressed that much . :pinned:

You are right

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Landry

He invented the now popular 4–3 defense, and the "flex defense" system made famous by the "Doomsday Defense" squads he created during his 29 year tenure with the Dallas Cowboys.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/07/guide-to-n-f-l-defenses-part-2-evolution-of-4-3-front/

But it wasn’t Owen who taught the scheme to his teammates. It was his talented young defensive back Tom Landry.

What made the Umbrella special, however, was Owen’s plan (as taught by Landry) to flex his defensive ends into standup linebackers at the snap and drop them into the short passing lanes.

The Eagle and the Umbrella were the earliest versions of today’s 4-3 fronts, but they resemble today’s 4-3 fronts in name only. Not surprisingly, it was Landry who developed some of the first innovations in the process, many of which still shape 4-3 fronts five decades later.

Rey
01-16-2013, 12:23 PM
"We weren't prepared". When has that NOT been one of the excuses after a loss?

Too bad the team isn't prepared to find coaches who will prepare the team for the big games.

Exactly.

Thats a running theme for kubiak coached teams.

Wade did a bad job in that game. No excuses for that.

But it's kind of hard to practice up tempo stuff when the offense you're going against in practice doesn't do much of it.

That's on kubiak. He's the head coach and he should make sure the entire team is prepared. Wade should have simulated some of that hurry up stuff though. Just an all around failure.

steelbtexan
01-16-2013, 12:25 PM
yeah, its just ironic that the team we lost to constantly has players saying "we were prepared" in regards to their coach after big wins.

Maybe only now youare begining to see that the Texans are suffering from coaching/leadership problems. Gary has had long enough to grow on the job. (He did his best this yr since he's been here and his best still isn't good enough.)

Dont expect any changes though. That's not the way Bob operates. I mean they aren't even will to fire the ineptness that is Coach Joe.

Double Barrel
01-16-2013, 12:31 PM
You mention Jim Harbaugh and Bill Belichick...nothing in those teams seem stuck in "systems". We seem a slave to our system while other teams build systems around their talent. Hell, for an offensive guru, Kubiak can't even run a hurry up offense. While we patiently wait for things to come our way via patience, guys like Andre Johnson are at the end of their careers.

It blows my mind that this offense seems to lack some of the basic functions of many other NFL offenses. Most noticeable is the lack of a true hurry up and the very limited pre-snap audible abilities at the line of scrimmage.

Kubiak has a bit of that old school "this is what we do and we do it well" attitude to him. He seems to believe that as long as we can do one-dimension really well, then that's all we need to do. But other teams are figuring out how to dismantle that one-dimension, and we are seeing an inability to adapt to that on-going evolutionary process.

And Wade seems to be from the same mold with his defensive schemes.

badboy
01-16-2013, 12:32 PM
Having a play caller on the field eliminates this problem. I watched Phillips on TV after first NE game IIRC saying he was getting the call sent in too late.

Vinny
01-16-2013, 12:35 PM
It blows my mind that this offense seems to lack some of the basic functions of many other NFL offenses. Most noticeable is the lack of a true hurry up and the very limited pre-snap audible abilities at the line of scrimmage.

Kubiak has a bit of that old school "this is what we do and we do it well" attitude to him. He seems to believe that as long as we can do one-dimension really well, then that's all we need to do. But other teams are figuring out how to dismantle that one-dimension, and we are seeing an inability to adapt to that on-going evolutionary process.

And Wade seems to be from the same mold with his defensive schemes.Patriots lose a player (they lost both Woodhead and Gronk in the first quarter) and then they alter what they do based on the talent of the guy replacing them. The guys replacing those guys didn't run identical stuff...they did what they were good at. We on the other hand (just one example of many), swing Old man ILB Ruud outside to man cover players obviously faster than he is.

Rey
01-16-2013, 12:44 PM
Patriots lose a player (they lost both Woodhead and Gronk in the first quarter) and then they alter what they do based on the talent of the guy replacing them. The guys replacing those guys didn't run identical stuff...they did what they were good at. We on the other hand (just one example of many), swing Old man ILB Ruud outside to man cover players obviously faster than he is.

I heard an interview after the game with Brady and he talked about how they had worked all week on a specific game plan that largely revolved around gronk being in the line up.

He said that once he went out they pretty much had to scrap everything they worked on. So yeah...

dream_team
01-16-2013, 12:53 PM
But it's kind of hard to practice up tempo stuff when the offense you're going against in practice doesn't do much of it.

It's the responsibility of the scout team to simulate the Patriots offense. So the defense does practice against a team that is supposed to be playing like the Pats.

So how did a thread about the defense turn into another Kubiak bashing thread? When the defense does good, Wade gets ALL the credit. When the defense does bad, somehow Kubiak gets the blame still?

GP
01-16-2013, 12:59 PM
It does make you wonder if McNair is looking in the NFL's rear-view mirror to emulate previous successful dynasties too much. He might be lacking the vision to see big picture evolution in the NFL, much to the detriment of required deviation that continuous success demands.

"Old school" coaches like Belichick see the evolution and adapt accordingly. His team is winning games today in a much different way than they were winning games in 2002. Rule changes and player evolution is changing the game. Young head coaches like Jim Harbaugh are dynamic because they understand the on-going evolution. Adapt or go extinct.

Reminds me of that documentary about Tom Landry. Dude was a genius innovator, and so much of the league at the time was stuck in the 1950's power run game that his schemes seemed exotic and unrealistic to his peers. In hindsight, however, we see him for the true genius that made the NFL a better overall game. Now his perspectives and innovations are considered fundamentals in football. By the same way, today's innovations and evolution will be perceived the same way decades from now.

The NFL is clearly morphing into a very offense-friendly league. Hopefully the Texans can keep up.

You and I are on the same page.

I've been saying that same thing, entirely, for about 4 days now. But I think a lot of us (including you & I, and others) have been FEELING that way for more than that, it's just that we're now openly SAYING it.

And this season, especially the two losses to the Patriots (with the playoff loss seeing us make the same dumb errors as before), has made us realize that it's not just a theory any longer. It's fact.

Luv_ya_blue
01-16-2013, 01:00 PM
It's the responsibility of the scout team to simulate the Patriots offense. So the defense does practice against a team that is supposed to be playing like the Pats.

So how did a thread about the defense turn into another Kubiak bashing thread? When the defense does good, Wade gets ALL the credit. When the defense does bad, somehow Kubiak gets the blame still?

There are plenty that are willing to tell it like it is about Wade and his ineptitude--myself being one of them.

As far as Kubes goes, it's because there is so much deep-seated animosity for Kubiak and the way he "manages" the game and the personnel. And truthfully, the buck stops with him.

Rey
01-16-2013, 01:02 PM
It's the responsibility of the scout team to simulate the Patriots offense. So the defense does practice against a team that is supposed to be playing like the Pats.

So how did a thread about the defense turn into another Kubiak bashing thread? When the defense does good, Wade gets ALL the credit. When the defense does bad, somehow Kubiak gets the blame still?

The scout team? Do you know how many players are on an NFL scout team?

Do you even know how a scout team works?

You sound ridiculous.

Scout team is not a full set of offensive players. It consist of the practice squad players and your bottom of the roster back ups.

There is no offensive coach running the scout team for the defense. You think case Keenum is going to go out there with roc Carmichael at wr and simulate the patriots offense?

The only work the texans defense could have possibly gotten throughout the year against a real offense would have been during team sessions when the offense went up against the defense.

dream_team
01-16-2013, 01:10 PM
The scout team? Do you know how many players are on an NFL scout team?

Do you even know how a scout team works?

You sound ridiculous.

Scout team is not a full set of offensive players. It consist of the practice squad players and your bottom of the roster back ups.

There is no offensive coach running the scout team for the defense. You think case Keenum is going to go out there with roc Carmichael at wr and simulate the patriots offense?

The only work the texans defense could have possibly gotten throughout the year against a real offense would have been during team sessions when the offense went up against the defense.

First of all, thank you for the kind words.

The purpose of the scout team is to simulate your opponent... and our opponent is known to do that quick snap. So a prepared defense should have practiced this against the scout team.

And yes, I expect Case & Roc to be simulating the Patriots offense. Of course they are not going to be exactly the same, but they can at least simulate a quick snap.

Rey
01-16-2013, 01:11 PM
There are plenty that are willing to tell it like it is about Wade and his ineptitude--myself being one of them.

As far as Kubes goes, it's because there is so much deep-seated animosity for Kubiak and the way he "manages" the game and the personnel. And truthfully, the buck stops with him.

This mostly.

Kubiak is the head coach. Why should we be the only team that doesn't look at the head coach when one of it's players comes out and says we weren't prepared?

This isn't new. It's just one of the few times that a player comes out and says this.

Fire wade. I don't really care. LoL...that make anyone feel better about going into next season? Kubiak and any other available defensive coordinator of your choice?

Double Barrel
01-16-2013, 01:17 PM
It's the responsibility of the scout team to simulate the Patriots offense. So the defense does practice against a team that is supposed to be playing like the Pats.

So how did a thread about the defense turn into another Kubiak bashing thread? When the defense does good, Wade gets ALL the credit. When the defense does bad, somehow Kubiak gets the blame still?

I do not perceive any "Kubiak bashing" in this thread. I do see critical analysis. Feel free to agree or disagree, but conversation is what a forum is all about.

As far as Kubiak being mentioned in a defensive thread, he's still the head coach of this football team. Wade answers to Gary, so any and all failure of any given aspect of this team ultimately lands on Gary as the head coach.

There is an attitude that permeates this organization. Like just about every football team, the head coach's perspectives and philosophy resonate throughout all aspects of the team. The attitude of this head coach appears to be more reactive than proactive. There should not be a problem in talking about this stuff as fans. Nobody is advocating that McNair fire Kubiak. It's just conversation.

dream_team
01-16-2013, 01:20 PM
I do not perceive any "Kubiak bashing" in this thread. I do see critical analysis. Feel free to agree or disagree, but conversation is what a forum is all about.

As far as Kubiak being mentioned in a defensive thread, he's still the head coach of this football team. Wade answers to Gary, so any and all failure of any given aspect of this team ultimately lands on Gary as the head coach.

There is an attitude that permeates this organization. Like just about every football team, the head coach's perspectives and philosophy resonate throughout all aspects of the team. The attitude of this head coach appears to be more reactive than proactive. There should not be a problem in talking about this stuff as fans. Nobody is advocating that McNair fire Kubiak. It's just conversation.

BTW, I do agree Kubiak deserves some blame as he is the head coach. At the same time, though, he deserves some credit for the defense's turnaround from 3 seasons ago. That's my point.

Vinny
01-16-2013, 01:20 PM
BTW, I do agree Kubiak deserves some blame as he is the head coach. At the same time, though, he deserves some credit for the defense's turnaround from 3 seasons ago. That's my point.
why? Because Wade was forced on him?

Luv_ya_blue
01-16-2013, 01:34 PM
BTW, I do agree Kubiak deserves some blame as he is the head coach. At the same time, though, he deserves some credit for the defense's turnaround from 3 seasons ago. That's my point.

why? Because Wade was forced on him?

My thoughts too, Vinny.
I think that we all know if Gary wasn't backed into a corner we would still be the subpar team we were.

Kaiser Toro
01-16-2013, 01:40 PM
Kubiak's playoff plan:

1. Collect Gametape
2. ?
3. Profit

dream_team
01-16-2013, 01:41 PM
I don't care if Wade was forced on him or not... just that we need to be consistent. If he deserves some blame for the defense's failures, he deserves some credit for their success.

Vinny
01-16-2013, 01:45 PM
I don't care if Wade was forced on him or not... just that we need to be consistent. If he deserves some blame for the defense's failures, he deserves some credit for their success.
Kubiak takes the blame for the entire team....he isn't the Offensive Coordinator - he is the Head Coach. He often acts like he is the OC though. I found it interesting that Mike McCoy (Bronco's OC that was just named new Chargers' Head Coach) said in his presser that he wanted a OC who would call plays on game day because there was too much to do and he felt obligated to oversee everything...and not just stay wrapped in the offense. Personally, I think Kubiak should distance himself from the offense and start cracking the whip on the other units more and not just be an extension of Shaub.

Rey
01-16-2013, 01:47 PM
I don't care if Wade was forced on him or not... just that we need to be consistent. If he deserves some blame for the defense's failures, he deserves some credit for their success.

Yeah he deserves credit for staying the hell out of the way when it was going well, and blame for not doing enough when it was going bad.

Rey
01-16-2013, 01:52 PM
Kubiak takes the blame for the entire team....he isn't the Offensive Coordinator - he is the Head Coach. He often acts like he is the OC though. I found it interesting that Mike McCoy (Bronco's OC that was just named new Chargers' Head Coach) said in his presser that he wanted a OC who would call plays on game day because there was too much to do and he felt obligated to oversee everything...and not just stay wrapped in the offense. Personally, I think Kubiak should distance himself from the offense and start cracking the whip on the other units more and not just be an extension of Shaub.

I agree with that, but the problem IMO is that he's not shown to be that kind of coach. His greatest contributions to the team seem to be from an offensive standpoint.

If he's distancing himself from that specific area if the team, what is he going to bring to the table?

Would be interesting to see if he could adapt and how the offense would look without him babysitting it...

76Texan
01-16-2013, 01:55 PM
I heard an interview after the game with Brady and he talked about how they had worked all week on a specific game plan that largely revolved around gronk being in the line up.

He said that once he went out they pretty much had to scrap everything they worked on. So yeah...

I don't believe it.
Gronkowski has been favoring his other arm ever since he came back.

If Belichik prepared a game plan that basically features him, he would a a stupid coach.

The fact of the matter is they have adapted to not having him for a while, and with an absolute pro like Brady at the helm, they can run whatever the heck they want, IMO.

Rey
01-16-2013, 02:01 PM
I don't believe it.
Gronkowski has been favoring his other arm ever since he came back.

If Belichik prepared a game plan that basically features him, he would a a stupid coach.

The fact of the matter is they have adapted to not having him for a while, and with an absolute pro like Brady at the helm, they can run whatever the heck they want, IMO.



I think it was the first play, they went right to gronk. Stupid patriots engraving in the defenses mind that they are going to have to cover him.

And I didn't say feature. Neither did Brady. Revolves around means just that.

There's probably a reason they went to gronk so early. So the texans knew he wasn't just out there as a decoy. That they were going to have to cover him which would like open things up for other players. Also, instead of using two their two te's heavily they were just down to Hernandez as a playmaker at that position.

That changes formations you planned on using and everything else.

I have no idea why brady would lie out of nowhere when asked about gronk and say they had to change up their game plan.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 02:02 PM
I think it was the first play, they went right to gronk. Stupid patriots engraving in the defenses mind that they are going to have to cover him.

And I didn't say feature. Neither did Brady. Revolves around means just that.

There's probably a reason they went to gronk so early. So the texans knew he wasn't just out there as a decoy. That they were going to have to cover him which would like open things up for other players.

I have no idea why brady would lie out of nowhere when asked about gronk and say they had to change up their game plan.

Half truths are never lies.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2013, 02:06 PM
I don't believe it.
Gronkowski has been favoring his other arm ever since he came back.

If Belichik prepared a game plan that basically features him, he would a a stupid coach.

The fact of the matter is they have adapted to not having him for a while, and with an absolute pro like Brady at the helm, they can run whatever the heck they want, IMO.

I believe it. You game plan your opponent based on the players you have. Gronk didn't even get any time really until Week 17 but had been practicing and walking through since before that. His only game back he had 2 catches and 42 yards with a TD in a blowout. You don't think they would use him? So he was part of the plan. You script plays usually or at least try and have a plan to feel out your opponent. You don't just lose that guy right away and think.."just hit switch to plan B." You already had game planned for what switch the D might make and Gronk and Woodhead were part of it. They switched on the fly, Starting using packages with Vareen out wide and playing more and went with it.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 02:11 PM
I believe it. You game plan your opponent based on the players you have. Gronk didn't even get any time really until Week 17 but had been practicing and walking through since before that. His only game back he had 2 catches and 42 yards with a TD in a blowout. You don't think they would use him? So he was part of the plan. You script plays usually or at least try and have a plan to feel out your opponent. You don't just lose that guy right away and think.."just hit switch to plan B." You already had game planned for what switch the D might make and Gronk and Woodhead were part of it. They switched on the fly, Starting using packages with Vareen out wide and playing more and went with it.

Have you ever heard of Belichik the Fox being unprepared for any situation?

76Texan
01-16-2013, 02:15 PM
I'm Belichik. I know my guy Gronk could go back to the sideline anytime, but I still build a game plan around him.

Whatever happens, we'll just swing it.

Yeah, sounds just like him. :kitten:

Vinny
01-16-2013, 02:17 PM
I'm Belichik. I know my guy Gronk could go back to the sideline anytime, but I still build a game plan around him.

Whatever happens, we'll just swing it.

Yeah, sounds just like him. :kitten:Some people have the ability to go to plan b. You go with Andre Johnson if he can go...then you go to plan b. Why make fun of Belichick when he beats you like a drum with his back ups?

HoustonFrog
01-16-2013, 02:18 PM
Have you ever heard of Belichik the Fox being unprepared for any situation?

It doesn't matter how smart he is, it is how much time you have in a day. They found out they were playing the Texans on a Saturday and have a week to game plan. Mind you, game planning an opponent that you beat recently...so you are adding wrinkles...and you have Gronkowski back..someone they didn't see in the first game. That is what you work on all week. You don't waste your team running a second team offensive scheme in case something goes wrong. You maybe have a few of those plays in your groupings but your packages involve having Gronk...decoy or not..and having Hernandez in different formations off of that. Same with Woodhead. When that plan is scrapped from the word go, you lose scripting and any other package you planned on using all week. Its not like pulling out another card and switching gears because they are running different defenses than you saw the first time too. Harder than you make it seem and completely unexpected.

Wolf
01-16-2013, 02:21 PM
I did have a scream at the TV moment when Brady hurried to the line and the Texan defense was stsggering around. How in the hell could the Texan defense not know this was coming. The pats did it to them the first game too

Rey
01-16-2013, 02:23 PM
I'm Belichik. I know my guy Gronk could go back to the sideline anytime, but I still build a game plan around him.

Whatever happens, we'll just swing it.

Yeah, sounds just like him. :kitten:

Oh I get it...

Belichick is so good he can manipulate time.

He can create multiple game plans during the week for his offense (one with gronk and woodhead, one without gronk with woodhead, one with wood head no gronk, one without both....and let's not get into the possibilities of other people being hurt)

Yeah, that makes sense. Rather than believing he's capable of making on the fly adjustments lets believe he prepares for every single infinite possibility.

Dude is a master at preparing his team, but part of preparing is being ready to make adjustments for the unexpected.

And another hole in your theory is if Belichick knows gronk is in a fragile state he's going to send him out on a long route like that and put him in harms way and risk losing him for even more time when they are in the middle of a play off run?

Yeah....I guess when you think about it all of that is more likely than him just making an on the fly adjustment.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 02:28 PM
It doesn't matter how smart he is, it is how much time you have in a day. They found out they were playing the Texans on a Saturday and have a week to game plan. Mind you, game planning an opponent that you beat recently...so you are adding wrinkles...and you have Gronkowski back..someone they didn't see in the first game. That is what you work on all week. You don't waste your team running a second team offensive scheme in case something goes wrong. You maybe have a few of those plays in your groupings but your packages involve having Gronk...decoy or not..and having Hernandez in different formations off of that. Same with Woodhead. When that plan is scrapped from the word go, you lose scripting and any other package you planned on using all week. Its not like pulling out another card and switching gears because they are running different defenses than you saw the first time too. Harder than you make it seem and completely unexpected.
Shoot they can run the same play they ran last time and can still beat the Texans.

If you can't get the D call in, how the heck are you going to stop anybody.

Sarcasm aside, their offense is a well-oiled machine, with an old pro running it. It's not hard for them to go from plan A to B to C.

GP
01-16-2013, 02:29 PM
I don't believe it.
Gronkowski has been favoring his other arm ever since he came back.

If Belichik prepared a game plan that basically features him, he would a a stupid coach.

The fact of the matter is they have adapted to not having him for a while, and with an absolute pro like Brady at the helm, they can run whatever the heck they want, IMO.

Exactly. THIS ^^^.

Having Gronk was an added bonus, a BLOWOUT BONUS if you will.

And without him, they still beat us easily. I am sure that they wanted him to be very involved, just like we would prefer Owen Daniels to be very involved in our offense on game days. But us without our best TE is much worse than the Patriots without their best TE. For obvious reasons.

They were going to use Gronk, but even without him...they weren't like completely unaware of how they would function the rest of the game. They even lost Danny Woodhead early, too. And not much changed. For obvious reasons.

Vinny
01-16-2013, 02:31 PM
Good article on the Patriots system and the ways it always changes based on the players

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8849439/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots
It's late in the first quarter. A play ends, and seconds later Tom Brady has his team back at the line. He gives a hand signal to his receiver, a tap to his offensive linemen. "Alabama! Alabama!" The ball is snapped. An outlet pass goes to Stevan Ridley, who rumbles to the Houston 40-yard line, another first down. Subs run in. Soon, the Patriots are back at the line. Except now, running back Shane Vereen is lined up out wide. The Texans are scrambling. Brady takes the snap and hits Vereen on a quick hitch. Vereen dips around linebacker Bradie James and then spins back inside, gaining 25 yards before he's done.

The next play is the same play, with the same personnel, with zero time for the defense to recover. The three receivers to Brady's left crisscross around defenders while Aaron Hernandez, who was lined up as a back to Brady's left, dashes to the flat. He makes the catch and takes it to Houston's 1-yard line. The same 11 Patriots sprint to the line, but Vereen is now in the backfield. The play is a run to the left, and he's into the end zone untouched. Touchdown, New England.

Since Tom Brady became the starting quarterback in New England 12 years ago, the Patriots have finished in the top 10 in scoring 11 times, but the way they've gotten there hasn't been nearly as consistent. In Brady's early years, Bill Belichick built his offense not around his quarterback, but rather to support him, with a steady supply of dependable receivers and a physical running game. It was when Brady moved from trusted game manager to outright star that he became the offense's centerpiece, and the need for reliable bolstering was replaced with the pursuit of a cast that could push him even further.

First it was with Wes Welker, Randy Moss, and a pass-happy shotgun spread offense. More recently, with Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez, the offense became a two–tight end–based attack. With Gronkowski set to miss the rest of the playoffs, and Ridley and Vereen continuing to improve, the Patriots appear to be evolving again, this time relying on two running backs. Throw in three different offensive coordinators — Charlie Weis, Josh McDaniels, and Bill O'Brien — and it seems that the only constant in New England, other than Belichick and Brady, has been change.

But what's allowed New England to maintain its success among the shifts is that its quarterback and coach aren't the only things that have remained the same. The core of the Patriots' offensive system has been threaded through its various stages, both stabilizing the transitions and allowing the next evolution. The design and organization of New England's system is better suited than any other to adapt to an NFL game in which change — of personnel, of trends, of schemes — is the only certainty.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 02:32 PM
Oh I get it...

Belichick is so good he can manipulate time.

He can create multiple game plans during the week for his offense (one with gronk and woodhead, one without gronk with woodhead, one with wood head no gronk, one without both....and let's not get into the possibilities of other people being hurt)

Yeah, that makes sense. Rather than believing he's capable of making on the fly adjustments lets believe he prepares for every single infinite possibility.

Dude is a master at preparing his team, but part of preparing is being ready to make adjustments for the unexpected.

And another hole in your theory is if Belichick knows gronk is in a fragile state he's going to send him out on a long route like that and put him in harms way and risk losing him for even more time when they are in the middle of a play off run?

Yeah....I guess when you think about it all of that is more likely than him just making an on the fly adjustment.
You just need to go on the Pats MB to know that Gronk was still very iffy.

The part about him favoring his other arm was not my pulling it out of thin air.

It was a worse situation than Brooks Reed.

Rey
01-16-2013, 02:33 PM
Shoot they can run the same play they ran last time and can still beat the Texans.

If you can't get the D call in, how the heck are you going to stop anybody.

Sarcasm aside, their offense is a well-oiled machine, with an old pro running it. It's not hard for them to go from plan A to B to C.

Now you're saying something completely different.

I first posted that Brady said they had to scrap the plan they went into the game with and you said you didn't believe it.

Now you're saying it wasn't hard to switch gears.

I dint think it was Gary kubiak Matt schaub hard, but I have no reason to think Brady is lying when he says the game plan changed.

Best analogy I can come up with is like those ncis or secret agent type shows where you have two partners working together...they go to make a bust and bam! Something crazy happens...they look at each other and say "remember Korea" or something like that and they both know what to do...

I didn't say it was hard for them. All I said is what Brady himself said which is they had to "make adjustments".

Vinny
01-16-2013, 02:35 PM
Now you're saying something completely different.

I first posted that Brady said they had to scrap the plan they went into the game with and you said you didn't believe it.

Now you're saying it wasn't hard to switch gears.

I dint think it was Gary kubiak Matt schaub hard, but I have no reason to think Brady is lying when he says the game plan changed.
that's why I try not to engage him...it frustrates me to quickly and I'm too old to fight it.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 02:35 PM
Good article on the Patriots system and the ways it always changes based on the players

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8849439/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots

I rest my case.

SheTexan
01-16-2013, 02:36 PM
AMAZING!! Brooks Reed nailed everything most of the members of this MB have been preaching all year!! SAD, very sad, that the top dogs in this franchise refuse to recognize something so basic that even a football novice can see it! Why is that? Why is it so difficult to fix something like making in-game adjustments? My "female" assessment is pretty simple! We're dealing with MEN who's ego's are so huge they refuse to back down, even when a better solution is staring them in the face!!

Maybe we need WOMEN in the coaching ranks of the NFL!!:hurrah:

Ok guys!! Have fun blasting that last comment to hell and back! :)

76Texan
01-16-2013, 02:38 PM
Now you're saying something completely different.

I first posted that Brady said they had to scrap the plan they went into the game with and you said you didn't believe it.

Now you're saying it wasn't hard to switch gears.

I dint think it was Gary kubiak Matt schaub hard, but I have no reason to think Brady is lying when he says the game plan changed.

that's why I try not to engage him...it frustrates me to quickly and I'm too old to fight it.

Vinny, can't you see from the piece that you post a link to, that the game plan evolves around the QB, Brady.

Everything else is secondary.

Double Barrel
01-16-2013, 02:43 PM
BTW, I do agree Kubiak deserves some blame as he is the head coach. At the same time, though, he deserves some credit for the defense's turnaround from 3 seasons ago. That's my point.

Okay, give him credit. But, this thread is about a Texans player admitting that they were not fully prepared, which is a less than positive light being shed. I'm not sure why praise is expected in a thread that is critical by nature.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2013, 02:50 PM
I rest my case.

No, you don't. The article is about how the Patriots offense has evolved over the YEARS with Hoodie and Brady being there and how their language is still similar and intertwined with the different personnel they have had there. It isn't about game planning for a game for a week and being able to practice every scenario available for a week. They had to switch gears. Plain and simple. The packages run with Gronk and Hernandez together and the splits, etc are all different. You have to scrap that and go to another plan. You are game planning a team here, not running a skeleton drill where you just go to different plays and run them.

Vinny
01-16-2013, 02:50 PM
Vinny, can't you see from the piece that you post a link to, that the game plan evolves around the QB, Brady.

Everything else is secondary.if you read the entire piece it is about systems and concepts that go beyond Brady being the QB.
Erhardt-Perkins system. The offense was named after the two men, Ron Erhardt and Ray Perkins, who developed it while working for the Patriots under head coach Chuck Fairbanks in the 1970s. According to Perkins, it was assembled in the same way most such systems are developed. "I don't look at it as us inventing it," he explained. "I look at it as a bunch of coaches sitting in rooms late at night organizing and getting things together to help players be successful."

The backbone of the Erhardt-Perkins system is that plays — pass plays in particular — are not organized by a route tree or by calling a single receiver's route, but by what coaches refer to as "concepts." Each play has a name, and that name conjures up an image for both the quarterback and the other players on offense. And, most importantly, the concept can be called from almost any formation or set. Who does what changes, but the theory and tactics driving the play do not. "In essence, you're running the same play," said Perkins. "You're just giving them some window-dressing to make it look different."

The biggest advantage of the concept-based system is that it operates from the perspective of the most critical player on offense: the quarterback. In other systems, even if the underlying principles are the exact same, the play and its name might be very different. Rather than juggling all this information in real time, an Erhardt-Perkins quarterback only has to read a given arrangement of receivers. "You can cut down on the plays and get different looks from your formations and who's in them. It's easier for the players to learn. It's easier for the quarterback to learn," former Patriots offensive coordinator Charlie Weis said back in 2000. "You get different looks without changing his reads. You don't need an open-ended number of plays."
The most recent innovation to fall into New England's Erhardt-Perkins framework is a commitment to the no-huddle. In 2012, the Patriots were the league leaders in total plays, first downs, points, and yards — all by a significant margin. Other teams have dabbled in the no-huddle, but they can't commit to it like the Patriots can, for one simple reason: terminology. No team that uses the Coryell or true West Coast systems can adapt easily to a fully functional up-tempo no-huddle because, simply, they can't communicate that efficiently. The Patriots are built to communicate in one- or two-word designations, and so, with judicious use of code words, it's simply a matter of translating what they already do into a no-huddle pace.

This marriage of terminology and technique, of efficiency and elegance, is what makes the Patriots so mesmerizing. Like NFL offenses, in recent years NFL defenses have also become too wordy, relying on long-winded calls designating scheme and technique and impractical checks. With the speed at which New England operates, the message for defenses has become clear: fix your terminology or perish. For opposing offenses, the mandate is less direct but just as imperative. The Patriots have set the standard for modern offense, and if teams are going to keep up, they'll need to change not how they play, but how they talk. http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8849439/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots

76Texan
01-16-2013, 03:01 PM
if you read the entire piece it is about systems and concepts that go beyond Brady being the QB.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8849439/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots

You read the article and then first quote you just presented.

In each case, the third paragraph is the key: QB.

Vinny
01-16-2013, 03:03 PM
You read the article and then first quote you just presented.

In each case, the third paragraph is the key: QB.
The article is about language and concepts but you are too dense to see that.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 03:05 PM
In the third paragraph of the article, it says Brady became the centerpiece.

In the third paragraph of your first quote, it elaborates that the system is built from the perspective of the QB.

Vinny
01-16-2013, 03:06 PM
In the third paragraph of the article, it says Brady became the centerpiece.

In the third paragraph of your first quote, it elaborates that the system is built from the perspective of the QB.Sure it mentions Brady...he's their QUARTERBACK. Hell the article is titled SPEAK MY LANGUAGE - the damn thing is about how the Patriot language and lack of a route tree and conventional systems is why they succeed. But you would have to friggin' read the piece to the end to get that.

Speak My Language

As the players and schemes have changed, it's the way the Patriots talk that's continued their offensive dominance.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 03:07 PM
The article is about language and concepts but you are too dense to see that.

And because the Gronk is not in there that there's nobody to interpret the language and concept?

Vinny
01-16-2013, 03:08 PM
And because the Gronk is not in there that there's nobody to interpret the language and concept?
dude, you annoy me. talk to someone else and I'll avoid engaging you please.

Jules Winnfield
01-16-2013, 03:09 PM
“The hurry-up, again we weren’t fully prepared for some reason,” said outside linebacker Brooks Reed, who didn’t play in the first matchup because of a groin injury. “It’s extremely hard to get the call in and line up when they are going hurry-up. They’re not going to wait for you. They’ve got plays planned out and one audible and they’ve got their play ready. Whereas we’ve got to get the call from the sideline, get lined up, recognize the formation.

“It takes us a lot more time to get lined up than they do. That’s the challenge and again that’s what kind of got us today. And making plays too, it’s them making plays not just them hurrying up. I think we could have been a little bit more prepared. We knew that was going to happen. We saw it on film, them lining up quick and defenses not being ready. We didn’t think it was going to be us and in some cases today it was.”
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/tag/_/name/brooks-reed
******
That's a pretty candid remark by Reed, but it tells us something - Wade Phillips is not perfect.


anybody who believes this generic superficial response is an idiot.

you just got beat by a better team with a better quarterback and better
head coach.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 03:11 PM
Sure it mentions Brady...he's their QUARTERBACK. Hell the article is titled SPEAK MY LANGUAGE - the damn thing is about how the Patriot language and lack of a route tree and conventional systems is why they succeed. But you would have to friggin' read the piece to the end to get that.

Again, what does it have to do with losing a TE on game day?

Without the route tree and the conventional system, you can plug any offensive threat in there to run the same pattern.

The guy that replaces Gronk may not be as good, but they can still run their offense just the same; there is no on-the-fly adjustment.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2013, 03:14 PM
And because the Gronk is not in there that there's nobody to interpret the language and concept?

Read what I put above. It isn't like putting your car from Neutral to park. You go into a game with a script or whatever game plan you have. That script or game plan has packages involved that match up with the other teams defensive packages. No team is going to just run the same thing they did the last game and expect that the other team didn't adjust. Despite the scores the Texans didn't use the same game plan as Game 1 and the Pats didn't either. So the Pats come out and lets say they worked all week on using Gronk in the slot while Hernandez is on the slot on the other side to spread the field or they have Gronk lined up tight while Welker is in the slot. This is all game planned through film, etc. Once that game plan is blown you can go to something else but you didn't prepare or practice and say, "well Woodhead will be the RB for 60% of those packages, but if he goes down we need to use Vareen as a WR on the boundry." No matter if Brady is the QB or not, their GAME PLAN had to change.

Again, what does it have to do with losing a TE on game day?

Without the route tree and the conventional system, you can plug any offensive threat in there to run the same pattern.

The guy that replaces Gronk may not be as good, but they can still run their offense just the same; there is no on-the-fly adjustment.

Really? So instead of exploiting weaknesses in the D you'd rather plug an inferior guy in and hope the D still respects that person? That isn't how it works. If they don't respect the sub, they then lay off the guy and add help elsewhere. That is how you outscheme teams.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 03:19 PM
Look at the description of the 3-man route and then read the text.

The keyword is simplicity.

Then read the quote.
it says " Concepts benefit you because you can plug DIFFERENT guys into..."

That tells you that any offensive weapon can be plugged in at any spot on the field on any given play.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 03:25 PM
Then go to the Ghost/Tosser concept.
Look at the diagram and the read the text.

It says "this conceptual approach is how the Patriots are able to run the same basic plays, whether spreading the field with four or five receivers or using multiple TEs and RBs".

What it really ways is that you can put a receiver in place of the Gronk and you can still run the same play.

THERE IS NO adjustment on the fly.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2013, 03:27 PM
Look a the description of the 3-man route and then read the text.

The keyword is simplicity.

Then read the quote.
it says " Concepts benefit you because you can plug DIFFERENT guys into..."

That tells you that any offensive weapon can be plugged in at any spots on the field and any given play.

You are completely whiffing on this!

Re-read what I wrote just above this. We aren't talking about their "system" overall. We are talking about "schemes" for individual games. Being able to plug an inferior WR into Wes Welker's spot doesn't make the gameplan foolproof because the defense will then not respect that WR and will adjust accordingly. It is how you exploit match ups. This isn't a video game where you only have so many set plays and players. When Gronk goes out and Woodhead goes out, you don't run the same packages because Vareen does things better than Woodhead and vice versa. The defense can't sit on Hernandez when Gronk is on the other side. Plugging different guys in makes it an easy system to be in but doesn't mean the game plan is the same. Defenses adjust and you have to adjust too.

It is like Chess. Just running the same plays with lesser guys won't work when the defense adjusts. It is the same as a defenses top DB going down. You can't say "its the 3-4 and the backup can just be plugged in to cover WRs." Offenses know this and attack the lesser DB. The counter to that is safety help which opens up other things for the offense. It is adjusting on the fly.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 03:37 PM
You are completely whiffing on this!

Re-read what I wrote just above this. We aren't talking about their "system" overall. We are talking about "schemes" for individual games. Being able to plug an inferior WR into Wes Welker's spot doesn't make the gameplan foolproof because the defense will then not respect that WR and will adjust accordingly. It is how you exploit match ups. This isn't a video game where you only have so many set plays and players. When Gronk goes out and Woodhead goes out, you don't run the same packages because Vareen does things better than Woodhead and vice versa. The defense can't sit on Hernandez when Gronk is on the other side. Plugging different guys in makes it an easy system to be in but doesn't mean the game plan is the same. Defenses adjust and you have to adjust too.

It is like Chess. Just running the same plays with lesser guys won't work when the defense adjusts. It is the same as a defenses top DB going down. You can't say "its the 3-4 and the backup can just be plugged in to cover WRs." Offenses know this and attack the lesser DB. The counter to that is safety help which opens up other things for the offense. It is adjusting on the fly.

The Article talks about concept.
It's like you you design a shelf, now you can either use a flat head or a Phillips screw to secure the shelf.

On game day, you don't need to go find a particular screw to use.
Now the flat head may not be as strong for a certain place, but you don't need to go redesigning a new shelf and spending time to build it.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2013, 03:47 PM
The Article talks about concept.
It's like you you design a shelf, now you can either use a flat head or a Phillips screw to secure the shelf.

On game day, you don't need to go find a particular screw to use.
Now the flat head may not be as strong for a certain place, but you don't need to go redesigning a new shelf and spending time to build it.

I give up!I explained in detailed how they work on game weeks and in games.

You are explaining their offense in basic generalities. The article is how it evolved over the years and how the concepts you are discussing work. Like when Moss left, they could adjust the system without breaking it completely. It doesn't mean on game day you can add in inferior players and it will keep working the same. Again, defenses adjust.

dream_team
01-16-2013, 03:55 PM
I give up!I explained in detailed how they work on game weeks and in games.

You are explaining their offense in basic generalities. The article is how it evolved over the years and how the concepts you are discussing work. Like when Moss left, they could adjust the system without breaking it completely. It doesn't mean on game day you can add in inferior players and it will keep working the same. Again, defenses adjust.

Just stop it... I think you guys are talking about two different things and the argument is going no where.

So this begs the question, you think we could have done better against a "Gronk & Woodhead" featured offense? I think we do better covering tight-ends than backs coming out of the backfield. And Vereen is faster than Woodhead.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2013, 04:00 PM
Just stop it... I think you guys are talking about two different things and the argument is going no where.

So this begs the question, you think we could have done better against a "Gronk & Woodhead" featured offense? I think we do better covering tight-ends than backs coming out of the backfield. And Vereen is faster than Woodhead.

It's not an argument. It's a discussion on how team play offense and game plan.

I think with Gronk, the game might have been worse. Vareen is faster but Woodhead also is effective in his role. I wouldn't be able to tell you on what their plan was though.

Textan
01-16-2013, 04:10 PM
Texans weren't prepared or their preparation wasn't adequate.
Can't even recall how many times the Texans came out flat these last two years?
Kubiak will be back. Wade will be back. Schaub will be back. So unless one of those three reach an epiphany of some type, should we expect anything different next season?
Much more excited about the teams future after the Yates play off run Vs. this years.

Mr teX
01-16-2013, 04:15 PM
Belichick is known for drafting guys who can do multiple things and i think this is what 76Texan is trying to get at. The adjustments they made are probably less of an issue and were relatively minor b/c of this.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 04:39 PM
Let me see if I can bring in an analogy here.

Perhaps basketball, as it involves fewer players.

The Pats is like a fast break team; it doesn't need a great center to go downfield in a hurry.

The key is the point guard who can press the ball down court.
You don't need a dominant Center or PFW to do this; you need a dominant point guard. You don't even need a great shooting guard.

But those guys need to be able to run all day long to keep up with your incredible creative point guard.

The key to your success is the point guard, everything else is secondary.

If your basketball team is center-driven, it's different.
If your team relies on the 3, it's also different.

I hope I brought a decent analogy. !??

76Texan
01-16-2013, 04:50 PM
If you look at the Lakers of old with Magic Johnson in there.

It doesn't really matter if one other guy goes down.
They still ran the same plays; the guy that pulled the trigger was Magic.

Kaiser Toro
01-16-2013, 05:00 PM
The basketball analogy was as bad as the football analogies - they make no sense.

thunderkyss
01-16-2013, 05:35 PM
It appears that neither the Texans defense nor Texans offense have any hurry up abilities this season.

I blame coaching for this lack of preparedness. Wade saw it a few weeks ago, but the defense did not adjust to it.

And Gary should have had the offense ready to take advantage of the opposing defense and mismatches, as well as be prepared to play catch up as most of us already knew that the Texans would most likely be playing from behind.

Are our coaches that stubborn? I do not believe they are incompetent, so the only thing I can think of is that they are too stubborn to adapt.


How would you adjust to New England's hurry up?

76Texan
01-16-2013, 05:47 PM
The basketball analogy was as bad as the football analogies - they make no sense.

It's easy to state an opinion, it's much harder to explain why you think this and that.

boom boom
01-16-2013, 05:50 PM
Yep, we were out coached on that. I think Wade even admitted that. Other players said it was chaos out there at times.

hello, i am a huge patriots fan but you guys have nothing to be ashamed of. the texans are a damn good football team and you will be taken seriously and tough to beat for years to come. you guys have established an identity and as a pats fan i like it. i just hope the pats can dominate the ravens like the texans did. dont worry the texans will be back next year, will learn from this experience and be ready for big games. good luck texans fans and congrats on a great year. there are 28 other teams that would love to be in your shoes, dont ever forget that. GOOD LUCK

76Texan
01-16-2013, 05:56 PM
hello, i am a huge patriots fan but you guys have nothing to be ashamed of. the texans are a damn good football team and you will be taken seriously and tough to beat for years to come. you guys have established an identity and as a pats fan i like it. i just hope the pats can dominate the ravens like the texans did. dont worry the texans will be back next year, will learn from this experience and be ready for big games. good luck texans fans and congrats on a great year. there are 28 other teams that would love to be in your shoes, dont ever forget that. GOOD LUCK

Thank you, for I know you don't need to be coming here this late to give kudos.

I do like the takes on your MB; there are a lot of good people there.

I don't think I need to wish you or your team luck, even though it always help.

Kaiser Toro
01-16-2013, 06:14 PM
It's easy to state an opinion, it's much harder to explain why you think this and that.

As a former college basketball player, college coach, international scout, and agent I can tell you that your basketball analogy was on par with many of your football takes.

boom boom
01-16-2013, 06:18 PM
It appears that neither the Texans defense nor Texans offense have any hurry up abilities this season.

I blame coaching for this lack of preparedness. Wade saw it a few weeks ago, but the defense did not adjust to it.

And Gary should have had the offense ready to take advantage of the opposing defense and mismatches, as well as be prepared to play catch up as most of us already knew that the Texans would most likely be playing from behind.

Are our coaches that stubborn? I do not believe they are incompetent, so the only thing I can think of is that they are too stubborn to adapt.

hey, as a huge patriots fan i just wanted to say you guys have a tremendous team and had a tremendous year. the texans are a team that will be reckoned with for years to come with an identity now. ive enjoyed watching your team play and jj watt and arian foster are tremendous. good luck next year and again even though im a pats fan i enjoy watching the texans play. there tough, physical, and have alot of skilled players. if you guys get another top receiver to help andre johnson out, you guys will be in the super bowl. good luck brother

boom boom
01-16-2013, 06:22 PM
Thank you, for I know you don't need to be coming here this late to give kudos.

I do like the takes on your MB; there are a lot of good people there.

I don't think I need to wish you or your team luck, even though it always help.

thanks, i just hope we can dominate the ravens like you guys did. you guys destroyed the ravens. thats one of the best games the texans played all year. after watching that game i was nervous of you guys and quite frankly will be next year as well

Texcore
01-16-2013, 06:22 PM
Landry was the DC with the Giants and Lombardi was the OC with the Giants . Landry had the defensive background . I thought Lombardi was not so much the innovator as he was the the guy who made sured you were prepared for anything on a given play .

I kinda think Wade's wishy washy I wanna be a head coach again wore then with the troops . I don't believe that Cushing's injury was the reason the defense regressed that much . :pinned:

Very true. Landry was DC for the Giants AND was a player at the same time. Which is crazy. Even though Landry had a defensive background, his genius was as an offensive innovator....but I digress.

I fear this defense will begin regressing under Wade. I just have a sick feeling in my stomach...Just like it did in Dallas and in his other stops. He cannot or will not adjust, I don't know which it is.

Texcore
01-16-2013, 06:25 PM
hey, as a huge patriots fan i just wanted to say you guys have a tremendous team and had a tremendous year. the texans are a team that will be reckoned with for years to come with an identity now. ive enjoyed watching your team play and jj watt and arian foster are tremendous. good luck next year and again even though im a pats fan i enjoy watching the texans play. there tough, physical, and have alot of skilled players. if you guys get another top receiver to help andre johnson out, you guys will be in the super bowl. good luck brother

Thanks dude, but it will take a bit more than having another WR to get the ball to in order to get where we want to go! Namely a better QB and a HC with cojones. Look at the Pats, they are always in attack mode, that and you have a HOF QB, lol. But thanks...

boom boom
01-16-2013, 06:27 PM
Very true. Landry was DC for the Giants AND was a player at the same time. Which is crazy. Even though Landry had a defensive background, his genius was as an offensive innovator....but I digress.

I fear this defense will begin regressing under Wade. I just have a sick feeling in my stomach...Just like it did in Dallas and in his other stops. He cannot or will not adjust, I don't know which it is.

hey tex, this is just my opionion but if the texans get another receiver that can spread the field your offense would be dominant, you agree

boom boom
01-16-2013, 06:31 PM
Thanks dude, but it will take a bit more than having another WR to get the ball to in order to get where we want to go! Namely a better QB and a HC with cojones. Look at the Pats, they are always in attack mode, that and you have a HOF QB, lol. But thanks...

thanks tex, im surprised by kubiak being conservative, because he knows it takes cojones to win the big one like he did with john elway and mike shanahan two years in a row.

Maddict5
01-16-2013, 07:17 PM
Honest question:

Is any defense ever really ready for the hurry-up offense? If so, how does a DC prepare for it?

you see them lining up and know you're not gonna be ready on D, jump offside and tackle brady/running back and take the 5 yd pen. well worth it to stop em and get the subs in and set up plus you get a hit on brady too.

if they wanna be cheap on offence, match it with cheap on defence. lets see if they start lining up quickly if its gonna mean a hit on brady

thunderkyss
01-16-2013, 07:23 PM
Okay, give him credit. But, this thread is about a Texans player admitting that they were not fully prepared, which is a less than positive light being shed. I'm not sure why praise is expected in a thread that is critical by nature.

Still, I don't read it as Brooks saying the coaches didn't prepare them, I think it's more of a "you don't know until you know" kind of thing.

Like Jj Watt, I'm sure everybody he's gone up against since week 6 knew he was strong & prepared to work against a bull. But then Jj punches them in the mouth & they realize they had no idea how strong he was & thus unprepared.

Of course, the fact that we played New England less than a month earlier & they beat us doing the same thing, it's hard to understand how they weren't "prepared"

Maybe Brooks is saying he wasn't prepared since he wasn't there last time.. I think it's obvious they weren't prepared, but I don't think Brooks would throw anyone under the bus. Which this statement pretty much does.

thunderkyss
01-16-2013, 07:49 PM
Good article on the Patriots system and the ways it always changes based on the players

But what's allowed New England to maintain its success among the shifts is that its quarterback and coach aren't the only things that have remained the same. The core of the Patriots' offensive system has been threaded through its various stages, both stabilizing the transitions and allowing the next evolution. The design and organization of New England's system is better suited than any other to adapt to an NFL game in which change — of personnel, of trends, of schemes — is the only certainty.
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8849439/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots

Truthfully, that's just the author's opinion. He may have provided some subjective reasoning to defend his claim & at the present time (or even for some time) you happen to agree with this guy.

But I've heard similar things about several different systems. I've heard this about the spread offense, "that's why so many colleges run it." I've heard this about the airraid offense, I've heard this about the WCO, I've heard this about the ZBS...

It just depends on what's popular & who's winning.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 09:17 PM
As a former college basketball player, college coach, international scout, and agent I can tell you that your basketball analogy was on par with many of your football takes.

We've met in person, but that's besides the point.

Credentials and all, it should be easy for you to prove a point.

It's not good, I don't think, to try to prove a point by saying nothing on the matter.

We're discussing a matter here, and you don't add or subtract anything from it, except interjecting a comment that has nothing to do with the discussion.

Should we take your take?
Welll, we don't even know what your take is on this matter!

76Texan
01-16-2013, 09:25 PM
BTW, I've been reminded over and time again that my take makes no sense.

How hard is it for so many people who "has sense" that can't debate with me on a matter.

I've heard sport agent, lawyer, and on and on (as claimed through PM), well, these guys should be able to bring a convincing case, so let's hear it.

dalemurphy
01-16-2013, 09:25 PM
Sometimes it feels like we are what amounts to the kids who have to ride in their Father's Amish buggies all the while yearning to be in one of those exotic sports cars that casually pass you by on the road into town. I have mentioned in he past that the NFL moves fast, but this franchise seems to be a step behind and a little slower moving much of the time.

Vinny, I'm an infamous Kubiak apologist. While I may (depending on my mood) take exception with the harshness of your analogy, it is certainly true. Even at my most blissful, I lknow that Kubiak's learning curve is not a sharp one. I comfort that truth with another: he does learn. He will, eventually, see the problems and begin to modify and adapt... So, I feel good about the lessons learned this year and think the organization will be better for it next season. Do I wish Kubiak were quicker to adjust? Heck yeah!

Kubiak's greatest strength, I believe, is that he will never lose the players. I believe he has rare integrity that most players are moved by. He's a guy (sorry to scare some of you) that, if the team has some playoff success, could remain in position for 20 years or more... He's not a guy with antics that players tire of nor a guy whose message runs its course.

It appears that the organization's current strength and bright future are primarily the result of the following, though:

1. McNair's determination and commitment for stability (agree or not, the decision to keep Smithiak in place after 2010 was a gutsy decision that has paid dividends)

2. Rick Smith- I think Rick Smith has become one heck of a GM. Given that at least some power shifted away from Kubiak and to Smith after the 2010 debacle, I think we can count on consistently good personnel decisions between March and August.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 09:33 PM
And let me be clear, this has nothing to do with over time adaptation to the game, it's about the system that allows a team not to have to make dramatic adjustment comes game day.

BullBlitz
01-16-2013, 10:05 PM
“The hurry-up, again we weren’t fully prepared for some reason,” said outside linebacker Brooks Reed, who didn’t play in the first matchup because of a groin injury. “It’s extremely hard to get the call in and line up when they are going hurry-up. They’re not going to wait for you. They’ve got plays planned out and one audible and they’ve got their play ready. Whereas we’ve got to get the call from the sideline, get lined up, recognize the formation.

“It takes us a lot more time to get lined up than they do. That’s the challenge and again that’s what kind of got us today. And making plays too, it’s them making plays not just them hurrying up. I think we could have been a little bit more prepared. We knew that was going to happen. We saw it on film, them lining up quick and defenses not being ready. We didn’t think it was going to be us and in some cases today it was.”
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/tag/_/name/brooks-reed
******
That's a pretty candid remark by Reed, but it tells us something - Wade Phillips is not perfect.

Wow. So all opposing offenses have to do is run a hurry up and the Texans defense folds up. Why am I not surprised?

Vinny
01-16-2013, 10:17 PM
Vinny, I'm an infamous Kubiak apologist. While I may (depending on my mood) take exception with the harshness of your analogy, it is certainly true. Even at my most blissful, I lknow that Kubiak's learning curve is not a sharp one. I comfort that truth with another: he does learn. He will, eventually, see the problems and begin to modify and adapt... So, I feel good about the lessons learned this year and think the organization will be better for it next season. Do I wish Kubiak were quicker to adjust? Heck yeah!

Kubiak's greatest strength, I believe, is that he will never lose the players. I believe he has rare integrity that most players are moved by. He's a guy (sorry to scare some of you) that, if the team has some playoff success, could remain in position for 20 years or more... He's not a guy with antics that players tire of nor a guy whose message runs its course.

It appears that the organization's current strength and bright future are primarily the result of the following, though:

1. McNair's determination and commitment for stability (agree or not, the decision to keep Smithiak in place after 2010 was a gutsy decision that has paid dividends)

2. Rick Smith- I think Rick Smith has become one heck of a GM. Given that at least some power shifted away from Kubiak and to Smith after the 2010 debacle, I think we can count on consistently good personnel decisions between March and August.
how about learning he hurry up offense, or the sugar huddle when down by 18 with nearly a quarter left? My quandary is that Kubiak isn't a defensive coach so he should be at least be able to diversify the offense enough to function like everybody else does when they get behind vs good teams. We've all seen the other playoffs teams ramp it up when needed. I don't doubt this franchise will not be awful, but it wouldn't shock me to discover that the last 6 weeks of this season are what we are looking forward to next season (underachieving moreso than record) if we can't step away from this slow, plodding offense we are running today. It won't do us much good to have a nice balanced stat line if the game is over every time a good team jumps out ahead. You weren't at least a little bit troubled about the tempo and pace of our "comeback"? Walking back to the huddle, calling running plays, keeping the clock going and you gotta love those quarterback sneaks. They reminded me of those famous Pastorini bootlegs.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 10:38 PM
And let me be clear, this has nothing to do with over time adaptation to the game, it's about the system that allows a team not to have to make dramatic adjustment comes game day.

And all this started out with Gronkskowki reinjured himself.

People are saying that Belichik adjusted and moved away from his original game plan.

Man, I've never heard more Belichik homer than that!

And Brady: Yah, wee were game planning for Gronk all this time, but we just had to swing it you know, and still beat the sh...z out of the Texans. :pinned:

76Texan
01-16-2013, 10:44 PM
Yah, we've been gamee planning for Gronskowki all week long, unfortunately he went down, so we have to think of something on the fly to beat the heck out of them, you know, it's what we do.

Kaiser Toro
01-16-2013, 11:01 PM
Let me see if I can bring in an analogy here.

Perhaps basketball, as it involves fewer players.

The Pats is like a fast break team; it doesn't need a great center to go downfield in a hurry.

The key is the point guard who can press the ball down court.
You don't need a dominant Center or PFW to do this; you need a dominant point guard. You don't even need a great shooting guard.

But those guys need to be able to run all day long to keep up with your incredible creative point guard.

The key to your success is the point guard, everything else is secondary.

If your basketball team is center-driven, it's different.
If your team relies on the 3, it's also different.

I hope I brought a decent analogy. !??

We've met in person, but that's besides the point.

Credentials and all, it should be easy for you to prove a point.

It's not good, I don't think, to try to prove a point by saying nothing on the matter.

We're discussing a matter here, and you don't add or subtract anything from it, except interjecting a comment that has nothing to do with the discussion.

Should we take your take?
Welll, we don't even know what your take is on this matter!

1. In basketball players play offense and defense - this alone makes the analogy poor. I think you meant pass, rather than press. In basketball, press is short for pressure, a defensive term.
2. A fast break most often does not begin with the ball in the PG's hands. The better fast break teams will have a Center or PF that will rebound or block a shot and make an outlet pass up the court, usually to the PG; and then must fill the open lanes for spacing, and someone must bust their ass to get to the paint in order to make the defense react. A fast break to the fan is the artistic dunk at the end, to a team a fast break is an opportunity, but also to set itself up on the secondary break, for a an open shot on the swing, low post or weakside. If not, then through the spacing the team should be able to seamlessly go into it's motion or set out of the secondary break.
3. PG's are most often an extension of the coach, and the better teams will have PGs that do not have the ball in their hands for too long. In a fast break, the PG should take one dribble, two at tops, and get rid of it. If not queue up the secondary break. The PG for me, is a player that must be able to dictate tempo on both sides of the floor, specifically on defense. The last thing you look for from a PG in a break is creativity, as a coach. The break is drilled at grade school and derivatives of those grade school drills are still used in the pros.
4. Lakers - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in my opinion is the most underrated player ever. 6 Championships, 6 MVPs and the all-time leading scorer. James Worthy was a 7 time all-star and one of the best finishers in the open court. What made them showtime was Magic's smile and personality, what made them great was playing D, controlling the boards, finding the outlet man, filling their lanes, keeping the ball off the floor, and finishing whether it is the fast or secondary break. In short, execution.
5. Great PGs do not equate to Championships, unless you are talking HS or College
6. Basketball must advance the ball due to a 24 second clock
7. In closing, Rugby and Basketball, IMO, may be more analogous for your train of thought.

In regards to proving a counterpoint by saying nothing - this is a message board. You, Fiddler, Thunderkyss, Norg, I, etc, are not always understood - depending upon the take, experience on the subject, presentation, etc., whether it comes from the publisher or the consumer of the post. Moreover, it is my opinion that attempting to prove a point or insinuate fact, via a post that makes no sense, should be called out or qualified for the betterment of the poster, community and the inquisitor.

dalemurphy
01-16-2013, 11:02 PM
how about learning he hurry up offense, or the sugar huddle when down by 18 with nearly a quarter left? My quandary is that Kubiak isn't a defensive coach so he should be at least be able to diversify the offense enough to function like everybody else does when they get behind vs good teams. We've all seen the other playoffs teams ramp it up when needed. I don't doubt this franchise will not be awful, but it wouldn't shock me to discover that the last 6 weeks of this season are what we are looking forward to next season (underachieving moreso than record) if we can't step away from this slow, plodding offense we are running today. It won't do us much good to have a nice balanced stat line if the game is over every time a good team jumps out ahead. You weren't at least a little bit troubled about the tempo and pace of our "comeback"? Walking back to the huddle, calling running plays, keeping the clock going and you gotta love those quarterback sneaks. They reminded me of those famous Pastorini bootlegs.

I was alternating yelling and mocking the players, and coaches. It was infuriating!

We have successfully run hurry-up offenses in previous years. In 2009 and 2010, we did it quite a bit. But, that is a strong theme this year. Offensively, there was significant regression in the passing game from those seasons. Some of it can be attributed to Oline issues, etc... However, I think a lot of it has to do with team identity. As soon as Cushing was injured, I told Barrett that the key to our success in the playoffs would be whether the offense could re-establish itself (the next two months) as an aggressive unit that was primarily responsible for scoring enough points to win, instead of clock-sucking, methodical, and calculated- which it became (and it worked when the defense was dominant, and was necessary when Yates took over). Well, that transition clearly never took place.

Befuddling and frustrating for sure! Fortunately, I was resigned to losing the game before it was played. Otherwise, I may have had a stroke.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 11:05 PM
Do you know, for example, that they had lined up the RB Vereen out wide the last game just the same?

We had Barwin on him the last time.

If you want to say adjusting, then, this time we had a different guy on him.

The Texans chose to have a different guy on him (an ILB vs an OLB.)

Nothing new from the Pats there.

You should sing Wade for his "adjusting", yeah?

:mariopalm:

Vinny
01-16-2013, 11:09 PM
I was alternating yelling and mocking the players, and coaches. It was infuriating!

We have successfully run hurry-up offenses in previous years. In 2009 and 2010, we did it quite a bit. But, that is a strong theme this year. Offensively, there was significant regression in the passing game from those seasons. Some of it can be attributed to Oline issues, etc... However, I think a lot of it has to do with team identity. As soon as Cushing was injured, I told Barrett that the key to our success in the playoffs would be whether the offense could re-establish itself (the next two months) as an aggressive unit that was primarily responsible for scoring enough points to win, instead of clock-sucking, methodical, and calculated- which it became (and it worked when the defense was dominant, and was necessary when Yates took over). Well, that transition clearly never took place.

Befuddling and frustrating for sure! Fortunately, I was resigned to losing the game before it was played. Otherwise, I may have had a stroke.
Losing guys who could give you what David Anderson gave us and Andre Davis gave us kept us married to our slower moving tight end sets....between Posey, Jean and Martin they gave us a combined 22 catches from the wr3. Perhaps they will give us some more help next season.

steelbtexan
01-16-2013, 11:11 PM
BTW, I do agree Kubiak deserves some blame as he is the head coach. At the same time, though, he deserves some credit for the defense's turnaround from 3 seasons ago. That's my point.

Whoever hired Wade deserves the credit for the turn around.

Facts are this is an offensive league. King God'ell has turned the NFL into a version of the AFL with a bigger field and different rules. All of the teams that won scored 30 pts or more. (That doesn't includes garbage time pts/stats.)

Gary needs to fix the offense if the team is going to take the next step. He needs to find Schaub/AJ's heir apparents and fix the OL in 1 offseason. As well as get more speed at LB and add a S.

Is that alot to ask? Yep, but it can be done if Rick/Gary/Wade are willing to work hard enough. Hopefully there wont be any sleep apnea surgeries during this yrs combine.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 11:13 PM
1. In basketball players play offense and defense - this alone makes the analogy poor. I think you meant pass, rather than press. In basketball, press is short for pressure, a defensive term.
2. A fast break most often does not begin with the ball in the PG's hands. The better fast break teams will have a Center or PF that will rebound or block a shot and make an outlet pass up the court, usually to the PG; and then must fill the open lanes for spacing, and someone must bust their ass to get to the paint in order to make the defense react. A fast break to the fan is the artistic dunk at the end, to a team a fast break is an opportunity, but also to set itself up on the secondary break, for a an open shot on the swing, low post or weakside. If not, then through the spacing the team should be able to seamlessly go into it's motion or set out of the secondary break.
3. PG's are most often an extension of the coach, and the better teams will have PGs that do not have the ball in their hands for too long. In a fast break, the PG should take one dribble, two at tops, and get rid of it. If not queue up the secondary break. The PG for me, is a player that must be able to dictate tempo on both sides of the floor, specifically on defense. The last thing you look for from a PG in a break is creativity, as a coach. The break is drilled at grade school and derivatives of those grade school drills are still used in the pros.
4. Lakers - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in my opinion is the most underrated player ever. 6 Championships, 6 MVPs and the all-time leading scorer. James Worthy was a 7 time all-star and one of the best finishers in the open court. What made them showtime was Magic's smile and personality, what made them great was playing D, controlling the boards, finding the outlet man, filling their lanes, keeping the ball off the floor, and finishing whether it is the fast or secondary break. In short, execution.
5. Great PGs do not equate to Championships, unless you are talking HS or College
6. Basketball must advance the ball due to a 24 second clock
7. In closing, Rugby and Basketball, IMO, may be more analogous for your train of thought.

In regards to proving a counterpoint by saying nothing - this is a message board. You, Fiddler, Thunderkyss, Norg, I, etc, are not always understood - depending upon the take, experience on the subject, presentation, etc., whether it comes from the publisher or the consumer of the post. Moreover, it is my opinion that attempting to prove a point or insinuate fact, via a post that makes no sense, should be called out or qualified for the betterment of the poster, community and the inquisitor.

The PG for me, is a player that must be able to dictate tempo on both sides of the floor,

Right here is the key for you coach, you said it yourself.

And we are not talking about ONE play; we are talking about the whole philosophy of your team.

If you are a fastbreaking team, let's say the Nuggets back then, who's the most important guy on your team.

You know the Nuggets that ran a lot, with a PG from the Houston area?

steelbtexan
01-16-2013, 11:17 PM
I agree with that, but the problem IMO is that he's not shown to be that kind of coach. His greatest contributions to the team seem to be from an offensive standpoint.

If he's distancing himself from that specific area if the team, what is he going to bring to the table?

Would be interesting to see if he could adapt and how the offense would look without him babysitting it...

It would look alot like Baby Shannys last yr here. Except when Gary is calling the plays in the RZ.

Vinny
01-16-2013, 11:18 PM
Whoever hired Wade deserves the credit for the turn around.

Facts are this is an offensive league. King God'ell has turned the NFL into a version of the AFL with a bigger field and different rules. All of the teams that won scored 30 pts or more. (That doesn't includes garbage time pts/stats.)

Gary needs to fix the offense if the team is going to take the next step. He needs to find Schaub/AJ's heir apparents and fix the OL in 1 offseason. As well as get more speed at LB and add a S.

Is that alot to ask? Yep, but it can be done if Rick/Gary/Wade are willing to work hard enough. Hopefully there wont be any sleep apnea surgeries during this yrs combine.Either fix the offense or create a time machine so he can use this offense back before some of the recent rule changes.

dalemurphy
01-16-2013, 11:19 PM
Do you know, for example, that they had lined up the RB Vereen out wide the last game just the same?

We had Barwin on him the last time.

If you want to say adjusting, then, this time we had a different guy on him.

The Texans chose to have a different guy on him (an ILB vs an OLB.)

Nothing new from the Pats there.

You should sing Wade for his "adjusting", yeah?

:mariopalm:


76, I fall somewhere in the middle in this larger argument. However, I must make a couple points here:

Given that our linebackers are all either DE converts or 30+ year old has-beens, don't you think the Texan coaching staff had already signed their death warrant by exposing those guys to man coverage almost every snap of the game?

And, not only that, but Tom Brady and the entire New England staff went into the game (and the previous game) knowing that they could count on almost exclusively man coverage- and therefore game plan and call plays to consistently exploit very favorable matchups.

** How about hiding those guys in a zone sometimes. Heck, even if the zone is not particular effective, at least it can potentially create doubt or uncertainty in Brady's head, the receiver's head (possibly effecting his route), and/or the playcaller's head, making man coverage more effective and/or blitzes less telegraphed when the defense is spread out.

From my perspective, this is why the game was over before it started.

dalemurphy
01-16-2013, 11:26 PM
Either fix the offense or create a time machine so he can use this offense back before some of the recent rule changes.

Kubiak can't get much credit for the defensive turn around, other than his responsibility for that unmitigated disaster in 2010 which led to him losing his authority to hire the D.C.

Except for one caveat (which is significant, I think)- He has allowed/supported Rick Smith spending the bulk of the financial and draft resources on defensive talent, taking it upon himself to develop lesser talent and scheme the offense towards success. And, he has been (for the most part) very successful at that.

Looking ahead, I am hopeful that he will recognize the need for an infusion of talent offensively or this thing is going to bog down again and again... Vinny, I agree.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 11:30 PM
76, I fall somewhere in the middle in this larger argument. However, I must make a couple points here:

Given that our linebackers are all either DE converts or 30+ year old has-beens, don't you think the Texan coaching staff had already signed their death warrant by exposing those guys to man coverage almost every snap of the game?

And, not only that, but Tom Brady and the entire New England staff went into the game (and the previous game) knowing that they could count on almost exclusively man coverage- and therefore game plan and call plays to consistently exploit very favorable matchups.

** How about hiding those guys in a zone sometimes. Heck, even if the zone is not particular effective, at least it can potentially create doubt or uncertainty in Brady's head, the receiver's head (possibly effecting his route), and/or the playcaller's head, making man coverage more effective and/or blitzes less telegraphed when the defense is spread out.

From my perspective, this is why the game was over before it started.

We simply Failed, there was no denying that!

Kaiser Toro
01-16-2013, 11:37 PM
The PG for me, is a player that must be able to dictate tempo on both sides of the floor,

Right here is the key for you coach, you said it yourself.

And we are not talking about ONE play; we are talking about the whole philosophy of your team.

If you are a fastbreaking team, let's say the Nuggets back then, who's the most important guy on your team.

You know the Nuggets that ran a lot, with a PG from the Houston area?

Honestly, I have no clue what you are talking about, and I am not saying that in a condescending manner.

Which Denver team? I don't recall the record breaking Moe teams having a PG from Houston. His passing game philosophy did not need a PG.

Kaiser Toro
01-16-2013, 11:45 PM
Except for one caveat (which is significant, I think)- He has allowed/supported Rick Smith spending the bulk of the financial and draft resources on defensive talent, taking it upon himself to develop lesser talent and scheme the offense towards success. And, he has been (for the most part) very successful at that.

When Kubiak came aboard we all bought into the plug and play model based on his success in Denver with low or undrafted RBs, WRs, OL. I have not seen anything to suggest that Smith was the catalyst for this since taking on the GM duties. In fact, 2012 was the first draft where we were weighted at the top towards the offensive side of the ball.

Am I missing something here?

76Texan
01-17-2013, 12:12 AM
Honestly, I have no clue what you are talking about, and I am not saying that in a condescending manner.

Which Denver team? I don't recall the record breaking Moe teams having a PG from Houston. His passing game philosophy did not need a PG.

Based on ur stats, you're eleven years younger than I.

I was talking about Robert Williams, who was a couple of class behind me at Milby HS and then at UH.

He would have given Michael Jordan a run for his money, except drugs did him in early.

This is the guy who played on the same team with Clyde Drexler and Hakeem Olajuwon at UH.

steelbtexan
01-17-2013, 12:20 AM
I give up!I explained in detailed how they work on game weeks and in games.

You are explaining their offense in basic generalities. The article is how it evolved over the years and how the concepts you are discussing work. Like when Moss left, they could adjust the system without breaking it completely. It doesn't mean on game day you can add in inferior players and it will keep working the same. Again, defenses adjust.

Dont you and Vinny realize that you aren't ever going to win an argument with a guy who has never been wrong/master of the screenshot?

People are just now starting to catch on to his schtick. He frames, both ltterally and figuratively things to fit whatever agenda he sees fit. SMH

76Texan
01-17-2013, 12:32 AM
Dont you and Vinny realize that you aren't ever going to win an argument with a guy who has never been wrong/master of the screenshot?

People are just now starting to catch on to his schtick. He frames, both ltterally and figuratively things to fit whatever agenda he sees fit. SMH

Hey, bring on the debate.

While I'm happy (which is somewhat often), I can tell a story, can't I?

As a Jr in HS, we were in a speech/debate class, back in 1975, we were having a marketing thing we needed to do.

And the guys managed to roll out a coffin to "advertise" for the funeral home.

Complete with a body inside that rose up to say something like "I'm very satisfied with all the services and all"; it was hillarious.

So yeah, bring it on. :goodluck:

steelbtexan
01-17-2013, 12:45 AM
Hey, bring on the debate.

While I'm happy (which is somewhat often), I can tell a story, can't I?

As a Jr in HS, we were in a speech/debate class, back in 1975, we were having a marketing thing we needed to do.

And the guys managed to roll out a coffin to "advertise" for the funeral home.

Complete with a body inside that rose up to say something like "I'm very satisfied with all the services and all"; it was hillarious.

So yeah, bring it on. :goodluck:

Repped

Funny story

Life is all about selling ones self. This explains how I met my wife. It sure wasn't my good looks. LOL

76Texan
01-17-2013, 01:17 AM
Repped

Funny story

Life is all about selling ones self. This explains how I met my wife. It sure wasn't my good looks. LOL

I don't know how it explains such and such, whether your story is you know... but I'm sure it's special to each of us.

But, man, it was so crazy over the top when the guy rose up and said something like "come to ABC Funeral Service, they will make you happy, I know I am."

I will never forget that!

steelbtexan
01-17-2013, 01:58 AM
I've got funeral home stories too

thunderkyss
01-17-2013, 05:15 AM
Kubiak can't get much credit for the defensive turn around, other than his responsibility for that unmitigated disaster in 2010 which led to him losing his authority to hire the D.C.


Except we see a completely different defense when we've got a lead, or when the running game is working & we're controlling the game.

Kaiser Toro
01-17-2013, 06:59 AM
Based on ur stats, you're eleven years younger than I.

I was talking about Robert Williams, who was a couple of class behind me at Milby HS and then at UH.

He would have given Michael Jordan a run for his money, except drugs did him in early.

This is the guy who played on the same team with Clyde Drexler and Hakeem Olajuwon at UH.

Actually, very familiar with the team. Rob Williams was more of a footnote on Phi Slamma, and surprised you brought him up after I mentioned Doug Moe's name. Williams played with the Nuggets after their record breaking year, and got to serve the two premier NBA scorers of that time - Vandeweghe and Alex English.

Denver Nuggets worst NBA draft picks: A top 10 topped by two? (http://blogs.denverpost.com/nuggets/2012/07/03/denver-nuggets-worst-nba-draft-picks-top-10-topped/6831/)
7. Rob Williams
19th overall pick in 1982 draft

College: Houston
Stats: 153 games played (all with the Nuggets); 5.3 points per game.

Verdict: The very talented guard may be remembered for being called a “fat little hog” by former coach Doug Moe.

Seeing that list brought up my own memories. I drove Tskitishvili, Pachulia and another Georgian from Ljubljana, Slovenia to Poprad, Slovak Republic as a favor to the Georgian Basketball Federation. I drove through two checkpoints that late night, the second one was real. No one in my car spoke Slovak, and the cops did not know our languages. Cash money, talking with your feet and hands, and a smile will most often get you to your destination - known or unknown.

Good kid, that got bad advice.

Rey
01-17-2013, 07:52 AM
Dr furst was on the radio this morning 76 and he said gronk fractured his arm in a different spot. Said it could have happened next year or two years from now just as easily.

Double Barrel
01-17-2013, 10:19 AM
How would you adjust to New England's hurry up?

Keep them off the field with long offensive drives. ;)

As for the defense, I think losing Cushing was huge in this regard. We lost our defensive QB for all intents and purposes. Beyond his physical presence, which is major in this defense, we lost his leadership and brain.

I have not seen much hurry up with our offense this season. Like Dale mentioned, they used to be pretty good with it back in 2009 and 2010. That alone would have helped our defense. Just practicing against a no huddle would have helped our D.

They also have lots of film on NE, which I assume they spent many hours analyzing. Wade gets paid the big bucks for his defensive acumen, so he should have been able to come up with some kind of plan to at least appear somewhat prepared. They knew going into the game that NE was going to bring it, but often Texans players looked confused and out of place. They have to fix that if they want to compete. Heck, the Texans offense should learn from it and adapt some of that technique, as well!

hey, as a huge patriots fan i just wanted to say you guys have a tremendous team and had a tremendous year. the texans are a team that will be reckoned with for years to come with an identity now. ive enjoyed watching your team play and jj watt and arian foster are tremendous. good luck next year and again even though im a pats fan i enjoy watching the texans play. there tough, physical, and have alot of skilled players. if you guys get another top receiver to help andre johnson out, you guys will be in the super bowl. good luck brother

Thanks, man. I've always liked Brady since he arrived as a starter and had much respect for the Patriots.

When the Texans were going through 2-14 years, an NFL fan needs to have another team to follow just to keep sane. So my son and I have always watched the Patriots from afar and appreciated what the franchise has done. This was the first year that we had to come face to face with NE, so it was really tough for my 10 yo son. He went outside and played instead of watching his two favorite teams duke it out.

But yeah, the Texans are still learning how to handle success and I think the 2012 was another stepping stone in that process. I do think they will learn from the NE losses and improve because of it. Incremental improvements is still progress. Our fan base is not as patient as our owner, but it is what it is.

Good luck this weekend! I'd like to see Brady get a 4th ring. :howdy:

Still, I don't read it as Brooks saying the coaches didn't prepare them, I think it's more of a "you don't know until you know" kind of thing.

Like Jj Watt, I'm sure everybody he's gone up against since week 6 knew he was strong & prepared to work against a bull. But then Jj punches them in the mouth & they realize they had no idea how strong he was & thus unprepared.

Of course, the fact that we played New England less than a month earlier & they beat us doing the same thing, it's hard to understand how they weren't "prepared"

Maybe Brooks is saying he wasn't prepared since he wasn't there last time.. I think it's obvious they weren't prepared, but I don't think Brooks would throw anyone under the bus. Which this statement pretty much does.

You could be right, or partially right. I think we could perceive the term "prepared" in a number of ways. Obvious is the practices and study prior to the game type of preparation that involves coaches and game plans and the like. The other is mentally prepared, where you think you come into a situation fully prepared but once you are actually experiencing it, you realize that there were some deficiencies in your preparation and/or you just weren't ready for the high level required to beat a team like the Pats in post-season.

CloakNNNdagger
01-17-2013, 10:30 AM
It does make you wonder if McNair is looking in the NFL's rear-view mirror to emulate previous successful dynasties too much. He might be lacking the vision to see big picture evolution in the NFL, much to the detriment of required deviation that continuous success demands.

"Old school" coaches like Belichick see the evolution and adapt accordingly. His team is winning games today in a much different way than they were winning games in 2002. Rule changes and player evolution is changing the game. Young head coaches like Jim Harbaugh are dynamic because they understand the on-going evolution. Adapt or go extinct.

Reminds me of that documentary about Tom Landry. Dude was a genius innovator, and so much of the league at the time was stuck in the 1950's power run game that his schemes seemed exotic and unrealistic to his peers. In hindsight, however, we see him for the true genius that made the NFL a better overall game. Now his perspectives and innovations are considered fundamentals in football. By the same way, today's innovations and evolution will be perceived the same way decades from now.

The NFL is clearly morphing into a very offense-friendly league. Hopefully the Texans can keep up.

Rep your way.

As an NFL team these days, it is probably safe to say that if you spend too much time watching your rear view mirror, you are bound to miss the most important things that lie up ahead.......something that does not bid well for a "healthy" future.

Hervoyel
01-17-2013, 10:59 AM
I've been eyeballing this thread since it first appeared and every time I read that first quote from Reed I ask myself again "How is this even possible?". Honestly, how can someone go to play the Patriots and not be "prepared" for their quick-snap, hurry up offense. For Reed to say this there must be something very wrong with the way the Texans defense is coached or something very wrong with these players. Ok, possibly if it's just an excuse he's throwing out there and not true at all then maybe there's just something wrong with Brooks Reed but it doesn't look that way to me.

How many times do you have to play the Patriots to figure out how to deal with this?

76Texan
01-17-2013, 11:05 AM
Actually, very familiar with the team. Rob Williams was more of a footnote on Phi Slamma, and surprised you brought him up after I mentioned Doug Moe's name. Williams played with the Nuggets after their record breaking year, and got to serve the two premier NBA scorers of that time - Vandeweghe and Alex English.

Denver Nuggets worst NBA draft picks: A top 10 topped by two? (http://blogs.denverpost.com/nuggets/2012/07/03/denver-nuggets-worst-nba-draft-picks-top-10-topped/6831/)


Seeing that list brought up my own memories. I drove Tskitishvili, Pachulia and another Georgian from Ljubljana, Slovenia to Poprad, Slovak Republic as a favor to the Georgian Basketball Federation. I drove through two checkpoints that late night, the second one was real. No one in my car spoke Slovak, and the cops did not know our languages. Cash money, talking with your feet and hands, and a smile will most often get you to your destination - known or unknown.

Good kid, that got bad advice.KT, I went to Milby, I watched him play, KT.

And then he "followed" me to UH, with Drexler joining a year later.

There's still a story out there on the net about Rob, written by Michael Murphy of the Chronicle in 2005.
(In that story, it was disclosed that drug left him with a blind eye and a partially paralyzed left side.)

His legs seem to be made out of rubber, the guy can break a lot of ankles with his crossover dribble.

He was the most exciting player on the Phi Slama team because he can do it all, from defense to offense.

But he was doing weed early and then graduated to coke.
Why do you think the Nuggets would cut their first round draft pick just after two years?

The stats line don't show it, but he got that Nuggets team to run faster than ever.

Many people, myself included, think that he's the best player from the city of Houston (not Drexler) (Elvin Hayes is from Louisiana so he doesn't count.)

BTW, how do you talk with your feet?

eriadoc
01-17-2013, 11:14 AM
You know, seven pages into this, and I'm going to take Brooks Reed at his word. He said, "“The hurry-up, again WE weren’t fully prepared for some reason”. I know that's uncomfortable for some of you, but if you ask the question and you get the answer, take the answer.

Rey
01-17-2013, 11:16 AM
You know, seven pages into this, and I'm going to take Brooks Reed at his word. He said, "“The hurry-up, again WE weren’t fully prepared for some reason”. I know that's uncomfortable for some of you, but if you ask the question and you get the answer, take the answer.

This.

He's talking about the entire defense. They weren't prepared.

thunderkyss
01-17-2013, 04:33 PM
Keep them off the field with long offensive drives. ;)

As for the defense, I think losing Cushing was huge in this regard. We lost our defensive QB for all intents and purposes. Beyond his physical presence, which is major in this defense, we lost his leadership and brain.


I think defenses are going to have to change fundamentally. They're going to have to be concept oriented, like the Patriots offense, & follow roles as opposed to rules. They line up according to what they want to do as opposed to answering what the Patriots offense is trying to dictate.

I know it's easier said than done, but bottom line, defenses are simply going to have to change. I know people will say other defenses were able to deal with the Patriots in the past, but that was some time ago. They've almost perfected what they are doing now & when he goes into that hurry up...

bckey
01-17-2013, 07:04 PM
I think defenses are going to have to change fundamentally. They're going to have to be concept oriented, like the Patriots offense, & follow roles as opposed to rules. They line up according to what they want to do as opposed to answering what the Patriots offense is trying to dictate.

I know it's easier said than done, but bottom line, defenses are simply going to have to change. I know people will say other defenses were able to deal with the Patriots in the past, but that was some time ago. They've almost perfected what they are doing now & when he goes into that hurry up...

Question is can Wade adapt or is he too set in his ways. I like Wade. But I wonder if some of his schemes are dated for todays offenses and new rules that favor those offenses. The Texans have really been exposed when playing his man to man against elite qbs and even made some not so elite qbs look like probowlers. Not complaining because I do like our defence but just making some observations.

Luv_ya_blue
01-18-2013, 07:42 AM
Question is can Wade adapt or is he too set in his ways. I like Wade. But I wonder if some of his schemes are dated for todays offenses and new rules that favor those offenses. The Texans have really been exposed when playing his man to man against elite qbs and even made some not so elite qbs look like probowlers. Not complaining because I do like our defence but just making some observations.

Evidently he cannot adapt. He got blown out by NE in week 14 and blown out AGAIN just a few weeks later. Great coaches can make changes in that timeframe--ELITE coaches can make the changes needed on the sideline during the game.

We're not supposed to be just trying to "win games" here, we're supposed to be on a mission of superiority. Have there been great improvements on our D? Without question. Can Gary & Wade carry us to the promised land? Well, as of yet their efforts have been ineffective against the cream of the NFL crop that we will be contested by in the playoffs.

boom boom
01-19-2013, 08:12 AM
Keep them off the field with long offensive drives. ;)

As for the defense, I think losing Cushing was huge in this regard. We lost our defensive QB for all intents and purposes. Beyond his physical presence, which is major in this defense, we lost his leadership and brain.

I have not seen much hurry up with our offense this season. Like Dale mentioned, they used to be pretty good with it back in 2009 and 2010. That alone would have helped our defense. Just practicing against a no huddle would have helped our D.

They also have lots of film on NE, which I assume they spent many hours analyzing. Wade gets paid the big bucks for his defensive acumen, so he should have been able to come up with some kind of plan to at least appear somewhat prepared. They knew going into the game that NE was going to bring it, but often Texans players looked confused and out of place. They have to fix that if they want to compete. Heck, the Texans offense should learn from it and adapt some of that technique, as well!



Thanks, man. I've always liked Brady since he arrived as a starter and had much respect for the Patriots.

When the Texans were going through 2-14 years, an NFL fan needs to have another team to follow just to keep sane. So my son and I have always watched the Patriots from afar and appreciated what the franchise has done. This was the first year that we had to come face to face with NE, so it was really tough for my 10 yo son. He went outside and played instead of watching his two favorite teams duke it out.

But yeah, the Texans are still learning how to handle success and I think the 2012 was another stepping stone in that process. I do think they will learn from the NE losses and improve because of it. Incremental improvements is still progress. Our fan base is not as patient as our owner, but it is what it is.

Good luck this weekend! I'd like to see Brady get a 4th ring. :howdy:



You could be right, or partially right. I think we could perceive the term "prepared" in a number of ways. Obvious is the practices and study prior to the game type of preparation that involves coaches and game plans and the like. The other is mentally prepared, where you think you come into a situation fully prepared but once you are actually experiencing it, you realize that there were some deficiencies in your preparation and/or you just weren't ready for the high level required to beat a team like the Pats in post-season.

DOUBLE BARRELL, you are a gentleman. thank you for the support and i hope your son gets to watch brady get his 4th as well as myself. any patriot fan that comes to this forum and talks smack is classless. thats not who we are. we always respect our opponent. and any pats fan who says they are not nervous about jj watt, arian foster, or andre johnson would be lying. like i said the texans are a tremendous, taleneted football team, and get ready to enjoy success because the texans are a team to be reckoned with for years to come. besides the patriots of course, i always root for the texans. i just love the physical style and the way they get after it. good luck next year buddy and thanks for adding me to this forum