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View Full Version : Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers


Texanmike02
01-15-2013, 09:13 AM
OK. There are a bunch of complaints about Schaub, some of them are legitimate others are just nit picking. He isn't mobile, we know that. He might not have the best arm in the league, we know that too but I don't think there is anyone here that can deny that he has demonstrated in the past that he is capable of being a top 10 QB in this league. So what is the difference?

I went back and rewatched our game. Painful. But I was specifically looking for something. I'm submitting the idea that we ask Schaub to fit throws into too tight of a window too often. Go back and look at his completions. If you have access to the tape go look at third downs. Repeatedly we don't have good separation. Schaub is having to fit the ball into tight windows over and over. Then go look at Brady. 3rd and 5? He is throwing the ball to a receiver that doesn't have anyone within 10 feet of him. Does Brady make the small window throws? Sure he does. He made 4 that I saw. He also missed a few. Sometimes the receiver makes a great catch and sometimes the throw is perfect but we ask Schaub to make that kind of throw 20 times a game. Go watch his incompletions. Other than one throw to AJ (endzone 2nd pass of the game), one to Walter and one to Graham I didn't see him miss a lot of throws. (There was the WR screen on the left side but that play was just busted. That isn't a read that is just a matter of hike and throw.) Outside of those throws I saw a total of 4 throws that were to an open receiver. We all talk about NFL open vs College open but it sure looked like Brady was throwing to a College open receiver the majority of the time. Schaub threw the ball 51 times. I rewatched every throw. Of those 51 throws a full 19 of them were covered throws. I'm talking blanketed. Did he make the wrong read? Maybe. I don't have the all22 film available to go look but our receivers don't get separation.

Think about how you have to try to defend NE, GB, NYG, NO or ATL. NE has Wes Welker, Brandon Lloyd, Gronk, and Hernandez. Sure AJ is better than any one of them individually but combined nobody has the DBs to dover them. GB is more of the same.

Our receivers just flat out don't get open. Not at the rate that other teams do. Other elite teams have 3 or 4 receivers that are better than most nickel/dime db's, we have one. You can't tell me that between the throw to Daniels and the TD to Posey that Schaub isn't making elite throws, he is just being asked to make elite throws too often.

Mike

TexanSam
01-15-2013, 09:19 AM
I agree. We have Arian Foster, Andre Johnson, and a couple of average tight ends. After that it's basically a pile of turd. I hope Posey or Martin can step up but combined they had 16 catches this year. That's pathetic.

Playoffs
01-15-2013, 09:22 AM
I agree that our WRs, those we trust to catch & hold the ball, lack separation ability. I thought Schaub had some pretty impressive small window throws early on.

WolverineFan
01-15-2013, 09:24 AM
Johnson is the only guy we have that can get separation. He's lost some speed but still runs great routes to create room. Same with Daniels. He's never been the fastest guy but runs great routes to get open. Problem is, because they lack the ability to separate, good coverage accounts for them.

Our faster guys (Posey and Martin) aren't as developed in their craft yet and rely on their speed. Problem is this is the NFL and the other guys are fast too. I think Martin was criminally underused this year btw because he did get open. He's further ahead in his development than Posey or Jean at this point.

Surreal McCoy
01-15-2013, 09:26 AM
Aside from AJ, the only time our receivers get open is when they're schemed open. Those long passes to KW early in the season sure seemed to dry up quickly!

Dutchrudder
01-15-2013, 09:38 AM
Wait wait wait wait... You think we should value speed and ability to get separation over run blocking on the outside? HERESY!!!

WolverineFan
01-15-2013, 09:47 AM
Wait wait wait wait... You think we should value speed and ability to get separation over run blocking on the outside? HERESY!!!

Well the run blocking is important because, let's be honest, we are a run first team. When he's gone we are going to miss Kevin Walter because of that. When we throw the ball though we won't be missing him too much because he's limited. It's a trade off. It's rare to find a guy like AJ who excels in both.

2012Champs
01-15-2013, 09:54 AM
When we were a pass first team it wasnt our offense that kept us from winning most of the time it was the D

Rey
01-15-2013, 10:02 AM
I disagree with everyone in this thread. In fact it's an awfully silly notion to think receivers are going to get some kind of great separation more often than not. This is the NFL.

If a team has wr's who are open all the time they'd be unstoppable. If you're running a route you might get separation on your corner but there might be another player sliding over the top or in front. Qb's need to expect to have to make tight throws on a regular basis. It's the NFL. This isn't college. In the NFL sometimes you gotta throw guys open. You have to put balls in spots where your guys have the best shot at it.

Schaub does this sometimes, but not often enough. I font know if that's on him or on kubiak, because we we are trailing teams and go into chuck mode he makes those throws more often.

The two point conversion to Aj was a good example. He extended the play Talib was all over Aj. Schaub threw it in a good spot where Aj had the best shot at it and he made the play.

Why don't we do that more often? Why don't we take advantage of mismatches? Why don't we take advantage of guys strengths?

Why don't we use Walter in the slot as a hands guy more often? Let him bang against lb's...catch short passes by using his size to box out defenders? Posey and Lestar would be much better as outside wr's.

Yeah Casey had one drop. But the guy has good hands mostly and he's a mismatch nightmare for some lb's. Ditto arian.

Welker was a nobody until he went to the pats. And he still drops a bunch of passes. All these rb's Brady throws to, are they better than Arian?


Also, there have been plenty times where schaub has forced balls when guys have been open for better looks.

Lots of qb's have to extend plays to give wr's more time. Lots of qb's don't find wr's running wide open and throw balls away, run for yards and take sacks.

If we need receiving targets that are getting wide open all the time then we could stick anybody back there at qb. How hard is it to throw to a bunch of wide open receivers all the time?

How about giving Matt more freedom to attack mismatches and change tempo and Matt just making more plays?

eriadoc
01-15-2013, 10:04 AM
I find it curious that some teams with other QBs always manage to have good #2 and #3 WRs. Do they just hit the jackpot with every guy they draft? These teams almost always have a clear #1 guy, but then they have guys in line that look good in their role.

Hell, a rookie in Indy made TY Hilton look awesome this year. The two TEs for Indy looked awesome. We already knew that Reggie Wayne is. Eli Manning seems to have a revolving door of good backup WRs. Brady is Brady, of course, but he makes guys look great in any given game. Drew Brees has a cast of WRs that all look better than anything the Texans have. Manning has three WRs that look better than anything the Texans have, and it's only since he got there. Stokley hasn't done jack since the last time he had Manning throwing to him and now he looks like a perfect slot receiver, even at his age. Even teams that don't have one WR that takes most of the catches spread the ball around.

I'm not putting it all on Schaub, but I'm looking at him sideways, that's for sure.

Rey
01-15-2013, 10:05 AM
Wait wait wait wait... You think we should value speed and ability to get separation over run blocking on the outside? HERESY!!!

That too...

Seems like a lot of the same people using this as an excuse for schaub are the sane folks who stood up for kw...

Would need to do a cross reference.

Texanmike02
01-15-2013, 10:10 AM
I disagree with everyone in this thread. In fact it's an awfully silly notion to think receivers are going to get some kind of great separation more often than not. This is the NFL.

If a team has wr's who are open all the time they'd be unstoppable. If you're running a route you might get separation on your corner but there might be another player sliding over the top or in front. Qb's need to expect to have to make tight throws on a regular basis. It's the NFL. This isn't college. In the NFL sometimes you gotta throw guys open. You have to put balls in spots where your guys have the best shot at it.

Schaub does this sometimes, but not often enough. I font know if that's on him or on kubiak, because we we are trailing teams and go into chuck mode he makes those throws more often.

The two point conversion to Aj was a good example. He extended the play Talib was all over Aj. Schaub threw it in a good spot where Aj had the best shot at it and he made the play.

Why don't we do that more often? Why don't we take advantage of mismatches? Why don't we take advantage of guys strengths?

Why don't we use Walter in the slot as a hands guy more often? Let him bang against lb's...catch short passes by using his size to box out defenders? Posey and Lestar would be much better as outside wr's.

Yeah Casey had one drop. But the guy has good hands mostly and he's a mismatch nightmare for some lb's. Ditto arian.

Welker was a nobody until he went to the pats. And he still drops a bunch of passes. All these rb's Brady throws to, are they better than Arian?


Also, there have been plenty times where schaub has forced balls when guys have been open for better looks.

Lots of qb's have to extend plays to give wr's more time. Lots of qb's don't find wr's running wide open and throw balls away, run for yards and take sacks.

If we need receiving targets that are getting wide open all the time then we could stick anybody back there at qb. How hard is it to throw to a bunch of wide open receivers all the time?

How about giving Matt more freedom to attack mismatches and change tempo and Matt just making more plays?

Go watch the throws Brady made against us on 3rd down. Several of them were WIDE open. I'm not saying you need people wide open every play but it sure seems like other teams have players running wide open a lot more often. You can go to the "we need you to throw a strike on the money" well a few times but you can't do it on 60% of your passes.

Mike

Kaiser Toro
01-15-2013, 10:21 AM
We have players that are a perfect fit for the playbook, but the playbook does not evolve with the half, game, season or speed of the league.

Kubiak has us right where he wants us.

The question should be posed to Rick Smith - what is the impact to rip and replace the Kubiak system? My fear is that we have invested in a dying offense, and will continue to make roster decisions that make little impact on the overall results, but puts us in cap hell for when the change occurs.

Rey
01-15-2013, 10:23 AM
Go watch the throws Brady made against us on 3rd down. Several of them were WIDE open. I'm not saying you need people wide open every play but it sure seems like other teams have players running wide open a lot more often. You can go to the "we need you to throw a strike on the money" well a few times but you can't do it on 60% of your passes.

Mike

Go back and look at the last pats game in the reg season and plenty other games.

The play schaub threw the pick to Mccourty Arian was wide open. Probably could have scored.

What makes you think schaub just isn't missing some guys?

And a lot of those wide open pass plays are due to Brady controlling tempo and not allowing defense time to think and settle in.

I clearly made note of that in my post and several times. When you don't give your immobile qb more freedom and give him cookie cutter reads and audibles this is what happens. When you ingrain in him to take the ultra safe route when things break down you get a guy that rolls out and has time to make a play, but throws the ball away with no one around him.

This stuff sounds eerily similar to the Carr stuff before he left. Supporters unable to separate his failings from his cohorts.

Our wr's aren't perfect. They could be upgraded sure. But they are not making schaub look bad. If anything he's the one who actually has the ability to make them look a little better.

This is a schaub and kubiak offense. Kubiak can help by adjusting and schaub can help by playing better. The wr's can be upgraded as well, but they aren't making schaub look bad.

WolverineFan
01-15-2013, 10:27 AM
Our wr's aren't perfect. They could be upgraded sure. But they are not making schaub look bad. If anything he's the one who actually has the ability to make them look a little better.

Completely agree. Look what Brady has done with Welker. He was a nobody in Miami and now he's a perennial All-Pro in New England. Moss had his best season ever with Brady. Deion Branch won a Super Bowl MVP with Brady and then did nothing in Seattle after leaving in FA.

It would be nice to add some more weapons for the offense but the problems start with Schaub.

Double Barrel
01-15-2013, 10:30 AM
Put Brady in this offense with the exact same players and coaches and we have a team in the AFC championship game next weekend.

We have to face the reality that Schaub is not elite, or even top 10, but rather a pedestrian QB who can put up some nice regular season numbers. But he's not, and never will be, in the same breadth as Brady, Rodgers, Manning, or Brees. No amount of analysis or fairy dust kisses will change this simple fact.

BTW, I'm not anti-Schaub, but I'm also a realist and refuse to ignore his obvious shortcomings. We can win with the guy at QB if we have enough playmakers around him and a defense that can consistently bend instead of break.

Texanmike02
01-15-2013, 10:58 AM
Go back and look at the last pats game in the reg season and plenty other games.

The play schaub threw the pick to Mccourty Arian was wide open. Probably could have scored.

No question he has made some boneheaded throws. His int% (2.2) is not quite on par with elite QBs. Brady is 1.3, Manning 1.9, Ryan 2.4%, Rodgers 1.4% but was better than some pretty good QBs (Eli) Manning 2.9%, Dalton 3.0%.


What makes you think schaub just isn't missing some guys?

I'm going to look at that when I get a chance. TV shots do you no good, you need all 22 film. Another thing is the passing lane has to be there. Its easy for us to say "he missed this guy" but a lot of times there is no passing lane to get the ball there.


And a lot of those wide open pass plays are due to Brady controlling tempo and not allowing defense time to think and settle in.

Some of that may be the case, not denynig that but it doesn't change the fact that he is being asked to throw to receivers that are not open. If the simple answer is "get to the line and run plays quicker" that is a much easier solution than "find a QB that is better than Schaub".

I clearly made note of that in my post and several times. When you don't give your immobile qb more freedom and give him cookie cutter reads and audibles this is what happens. When you ingrain in him to take the ultra safe route when things break down you get a guy that rolls out and has time to make a play, but throws the ball away with no one around him.

I wonder how many QBs don't have cookie cutter reads. Its easy for us to say "when the play breaks down" but we have no idea what the progression of reads are. "Cookie cutter reads" could also be defined as "running a play". The QB doesn't have the overhead view and ability to see what everyone is doing at once, they must look directionally. Its a wide field. You have to know what you expect to happen on the field in what order and make reads accordingly. If the safety provides help in one place then you know there should be a hole in another place on "that play".

This stuff sounds eerily similar to the Carr stuff before he left. Supporters unable to separate his failings from his cohorts.

No. This is nothing like Carr. Schaub has thrown twice as many TDs as Ints over the last four years and almost 250 ypg. Carr never did anything close to that. If you get rid of Schaub 15 teams would line up to sign him as their starting QB.


Our wr's aren't perfect. They could be upgraded sure. But they are not making schaub look bad. If anything he's the one who actually has the ability to make them look a little better.

I certainly don't think you can say that at this point. It is pretty obvious that we don't have a receiver that can get open on most teams #3 corner (other than AJ) while the top tier QBs all have 5 guys on their roster that can beat most teams #2 corner.

Mike

Texanmike02
01-15-2013, 11:04 AM
duplicate post

Texanmike02
01-15-2013, 11:11 AM
Put Brady in this offense with the exact same players and coaches and we have a team in the AFC championship game next weekend.

We have to face the reality that Schaub is not elite, or even top 10, but rather a pedestrian QB who can put up some nice regular season numbers. But he's not, and never will be, in the same breadth as Brady, Rodgers, Manning, or Brees. No amount of analysis or fairy dust kisses will change this simple fact.

BTW, I'm not anti-Schaub, but I'm also a realist and refuse to ignore his obvious shortcomings. We can win with the guy at QB if we have enough playmakers around him and a defense that can consistently bend instead of break.

I'm not saying he's in the Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Brees class. I do think he is in that next tier of QBs though. He falls between 6-10 for me. I guarantee you if we released him today at least 2/3 of the league would consider him an upgrade over their QB.

Mike

Kaiser Toro
01-15-2013, 11:17 AM
I'm not saying he's in the Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Brees class. I do think he is in that next tier of QBs though. He falls between 6-10 for me. I guarantee you if we released him today at least 2/3 of the league would consider him an upgrade over their QB.

Mike

2/3 of the league does not make the playoffs. Why wouldn't they want a starting QB from a playoff team, if priced right? Heck I would keep Schaub if his cap hit was half of what it is the next three years. We are over invested in this QB, and we are over invested in this legacy offensive game plan, IMO.

silvrhand
01-15-2013, 11:25 AM
It's simple..

Matt simply checked down way too much this year, now the question we don't know is why..

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SchaMa00.htm

Playoffs
01-15-2013, 11:31 AM
Reads bottom to top, from a guy who has been inside the Texans and still has a few friends in there...

Seth Payne ‏@PayneNFL
Schaub is bright enough to do so much more before the snap, but has no authority to do it.

Brady takes 15 seconds and a hard count to identify the mike. Texans just line up and go. Brady wins.

Need to take the training wheels off Schaub when it comes to pre-snap invol

Texanmike02
01-15-2013, 11:54 AM
Completely agree. Look what Brady has done with Welker. He was a nobody in Miami and now he's a perennial All-Pro in New England. Moss had his best season ever with Brady. Deion Branch won a Super Bowl MVP with Brady and then did nothing in Seattle after leaving in FA.

It would be nice to add some more weapons for the offense but the problems start with Schaub.

But its not as simple as "what he's done with Welker". Name the receivers Welker played with in MIA or SD. Since he's been in NE?

2007
Moss
Stallworth
2008
Moss
2009
Moss
Edleman
2010
Branch (40 rec 15 ypc)
Gronk
Hernandez
(worth noting that pre-injury his ypc was down about 2 yards, his r/g was about half of the rest of the years and his y/g was about half of the rest of the years in NE the year moss left)

2011
Gronk
Hernandez
Branch

2012
Lloyd
Hernandez
Sometimes Gronk
Branch

His least productive year (by far) even if you carry the numbers forward for 16 games was 2010. While Brady had a high QB rating, that year it is the only non injury year in which he didn't reach 4000 yards.

Interestingly enough, that year the Pats asked a lot less of Brady. Instead of throwing 600 passes he only threw 490. Schaub routinely gets asked to throw the ball 550-600 times a year and doesn't have anyone other than AJ (sometimes OD, when he's not hurt) that can hold anyone on that list's jock strap.

Can you name a single receiver that has been on our roster not named Andre Johnson that has as much talent as any player on that list? I submit that you cannot.

Mike

Texanmike02
01-15-2013, 12:01 PM
Not even close.

Look at what is being said now after the game Sunday.

Most "experts" are questioning Matt.

He isn't even top 20.

Most "experts" were questioning Matt Ryan this time last year. Most "experts" were questioning Eli after the first few games of the year last year. Most "experts" question any player that has things go bad because it makes good press.

Most "experts" will show tape (over and over and over) on shows like "playbook" talk about "missing targets" pointing out how open somebody is as somebody else catches that ball, ignoring the fact that everyone on the field has reacted to the throw and not evaluating "open" at the time the ball is thrown.

Not even top 20? Wow.

Mike

GRONKED
01-15-2013, 12:04 PM
Reads bottom to top, from a guy who has been inside the Texans and still has a few friends in there...

Seth Payne ‏@PayneNFL

That sucks if true. You have to give him command of the offense.

The problem isn't lack of weapons. Andre OD and foster are plenty.

Its the hc/oc/qb or system that isn't getting the most of them. I haven't followed the Texans quite enough to claim to know which it is. In our mnf it was both..kubiak insisted on running repeatedly into wilfork (not a great plan for winning a shootout) and Schaub was consistently missing the wide open foster (most glaringly in the interception)

Texanmike02
01-15-2013, 12:12 PM
2/3 of the league does not make the playoffs. Why wouldn't they want a starting QB from a playoff team, if priced right? Heck I would keep Schaub if his cap hit was half of what it is the next three years. We are over invested in this QB, and we are over invested in this legacy offensive game plan, IMO.

There is nobody out there that you can sign for half the cap hit that is 60% the QB that Schaub is. Your window is open right now for a few years without retooling. If you think Schaub is a weakness then you had better figure out what you need to do to make it work. Going out and getting a Jennings/Bowe/Hartline type player makes sense. Getting rid of Schaub (with no real plan for a replacement) will land you squarely in 2007-2008 again. If there had been a time that we had more than 1 above average receiver on this team I would be more inclined to believe that Schaub was the problem. Hell I didn't put Jabar Gaffney on that list. Before you laugh, at Washington of all places he caught 68 balls for 970 yards last year. He was on the Pats for a few years too. We don't have a guy with THAT kind of ability on our roster and he was their 3rd or 4th receiver.

Mike

Mr teX
01-15-2013, 12:20 PM
Reads bottom to top, from a guy who has been inside the Texans and still has a few friends in there...

Seth Payne ‏@PayneNFL

Good post and i'll bet that none of Schaub's detractors are going to address this even though it probably holds more weight than anything anyone on here says. When you get down to it, Kubiak is the real issue here for 1 of 2 reasons.

#1..The above tweet from Seth Payne illustrates it. Schaub's not given free range to audible to take advantage of possible defensive mismatches by Kubiak. It clearly shows in the playcalling, how the offense runs during certain situations (down by 20+ in the 4th and we're still not running sugar huddle & getting plays called in from the sidelines?) and of course our tempo at times with hard counts. If Payne can see it, what makes you think coaches like Belichick don't see it?

#2..if it's simply a matter of Kubiak not trusting Schaub........for whatever reason.......then lets move on and try to find a qb that does inspire his trust. Draft, trade, pay him under the table.....whatever. But no, they've picked up all these guys who don't stand a chance of becoming anything & of course they extend Schaub. & yeah, the last part of that is mainly on Smith, but i gotta believe that Kubiak had some say in whether or not they extended him or not.

#3..the weapons around him, more specifically the ones on the outside. Kubiak's looking at it from the wrong perspective. having a WR that can block is great...above all though, those WR's have to be a threat in the passing game..we really only have 1. Our offense looks eerily like ATL's did just a few years ago. heavily dependent on the run but couldn't do much once the run got shutdown in the playoffs. They realized that they needed to get more weaponry for Ryan on the outside, better, more aggressive playcalling enter Dirk Koetter, TG and Julio Jones. Matt Ryan and that offense exploded this year.

Schaub's not elite; everybody on this board acknowledges that. But Kubiak most certainly isn't helping him and this offense like he thinks he is. I would think that more than anything, he's hindering him by keeping guys like Walter

Kaiser Toro
01-15-2013, 12:20 PM
Getting rid of Schaub (with no real plan for a replacement) will land you squarely in 2007-2008 again.
Mike

Broncos, 49ers, Seahawks, Vikings, and Redskins. All had WR and/or QB issues going into the 2012 draft/season. They survived.

We can do better, unfortunately the decision maker(s) do not have the stones or the competency to change.

Texanmike02
01-15-2013, 12:27 PM
Broncos, 49ers, Seahawks, Vikings, and Redskins. All had WR and/or QB issues going into the 2012 draft/season. They survived.

We can do better, unfortunately the decision maker(s) do not have the stones or the competency to change.

The only one in a comperable situation was the 9ers. There is no Peyton Manning avaliabe and we don't have a top 10 pick. Want a list of teams that had QB problems that didn't get it sorted out?

Mike

Double Barrel
01-15-2013, 12:30 PM
I'm not saying he's in the Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Brees class. I do think he is in that next tier of QBs though. He falls between 6-10 for me. I guarantee you if we released him today at least 2/3 of the league would consider him an upgrade over their QB.

Mike

I just went through the entire list of 32 starting QBs in the NFL and could only come up with 9-10 teams that fit your criteria.

1/3rd of the league, but far from 60-70% that you purport.

Mr teX
01-15-2013, 12:30 PM
Broncos, 49ers, Seahawks, Vikings, and Redskins. All had WR and/or QB issues going into the 2012 draft/season. They survived.

We can do better, unfortunately the decision maker(s) do not have the stones or the competency to change.

This year's draft was the exception not the rule.

I submit to you every qb draft since 2006 with 2007 being especially atrocious...only a hair better than the 2006 draft b/c Jay Cutler is at least still consider a starter. The attrition rate is terrible for drafting qbs. I still would rather us draft our guy than trade for some guy that may or may not be the answer. Care to guess where this year's qb crop ranks on the spectrum? Bottom line, if you're not willing to move up into the top 5 your chances of landing your qb of the future are miniscule.

JCTexan
01-15-2013, 12:33 PM
Brady takes 15 seconds and a hard count to identify the mike. Texans just line up and go. Brady wins

Can someone explain this a little more thoroughly? Wouldn't teams have the same mike linebacker every snap? Does it have more to do with the scheme the team is using?

Kaiser Toro
01-15-2013, 12:35 PM
The only one in a comperable situation was the 9ers. There is no Peyton Manning avaliabe and we don't have a top 10 pick. Want a list of teams that had QB problems that didn't get it sorted out?

Mike

Anyone who watches this league can tell you do not need a top 10 pick for QB or top WRs to show significant YoY improvement.

Rey
01-15-2013, 12:35 PM
Good post and i'll bet that none of Schaub's detractors are going to address this even though it probably holds more weight than anything anyone on here says. When you get down to it, Kubiak is the real issue here for 1 of 2 reasons.

#1..The above tweet from Seth Payne illustrates it.

Payne us late. This is bot some breaking news. Plenty of people have said that for a while now.

I've mentioned it in several threads including this one.

Mr teX
01-15-2013, 12:39 PM
Can someone explain this a little more thoroughly? Wouldn't teams have the same mike linebacker every snap? Does it have more to do with the scheme the team is using?

It's simply a matter of determining who's coming and who's not that the qb tries to figure out. defenses try to disquise this by having multiple guys crowding the LOS like they're all blitzing..most times that's not the case so the qb uses a hard count to see which 1 of the guys in the middle tips their hands by jumping forward/jumping back. Good hard counts can usually reveal this and the qb's/centers can adjust protection and plays accordingly.

Mr teX
01-15-2013, 12:41 PM
Payne us late. This is bot some breaking news. Plenty of people have said that for a while now.

I've mentioned it in several threads including this one.

never said it was, either way it illustrates the bigger issue at hand.

Kaiser Toro
01-15-2013, 12:46 PM
This year's draft was the exception not the rule.


Dalton and Ponder got their team to the playoffs this year and Yates last year. Plenty of history to consider in the last two years, and these two years are here to stay, in that the college game has completely changed and the new NFL CBA.

Mr teX
01-15-2013, 12:53 PM
Dalton and Ponder got their team to the playoffs this year and Yates last year. Plenty of history to consider in the last two years, and these two years are here to stay, in that the college game has completely changed and the new NFL CBA.

Ponder wasn't thought to be much of anything until this year where his image only slightly improved. It still remains to be seen if he's going to be anything but a footnote if AD has anything but a superhuman regular season.

I'll give you Dalton but i think his ceiling is just about topped out. He's looked completely overmatched in his playoff match ups against up.

Texanmike02
01-15-2013, 12:54 PM
I just went through the entire list of 32 starting QBs in the NFL and could only come up with 9-10 teams that fit your criteria.

1/3rd of the league, but far from 60-70% that you purport.

Compare lists?

Mike

ArlingtonTexan
01-15-2013, 12:59 PM
It's simple..

Matt simply checked down way too much this year, now the question we don't know is why..

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SchaMa00.htm

Checking down isn't the evil some of you think. The other team knows where that first down line is also. The problem with the Texans is that there are really only two players who make plays happen, Foster and Johnson. The Pats have another two or three players who if short of the 1st down can make moves, power, etc. to still convert.

Rey
01-15-2013, 12:59 PM
It's simply a matter of determining who's coming and who's not that the qb tries to figure out. defenses try to disquise this by having multiple guys crowding the LOS like they're all blitzing..most times that's not the case so the qb uses a hard count to see which 1 of the guys in the middle tips their hands by jumping forward/jumping back. Good hard counts can usually reveal this and the qb's/centers can adjust protection and plays accordingly.

No. LOL.

Who is coming and who is not coming has 0 to do with determining the mike.

The qb identifies the mike so the o line knows where there initial steps and eyes should go. It determines which o lineman is responsible for which player.

And it's not even as important on passing plays as it is on running plays.

In the first game Brady was mostly calling out the mike on running plays. I was screaming at my tv yelling run.

In this past game, the first time he called out the mike I screamed draw! And sure enough it was a draw and everyone I was watching the game with looked at me.

He did mix it up and call it on some passes this game though. But I think he did that to mostly throw the defense off.

Brady isn't calling out who the texans are putting at mike. He's calling out who he's choosing to be the mike so he can get favorable blocking assignments.

In a zbs you don't normally identify the mike because it doesn't matter. O linemen make their blocking calls based on what they see and once the ball is hiked, you trust your steps.

Kaiser Toro
01-15-2013, 01:01 PM
Ponder wasn't thought to be much of anything until this year where his image only slightly improved. It still remains to be seen if he's going to be anything but a footnote if AD has anything but a superhuman regular season.

I'll give you Dalton but i think his ceiling is just about topped out. He's looked completely overmatched in his playoff match ups against up.

But what matters is that a QB drafted today, even in the 1st ten picks does not kill you if you miss, like in the past. The last two years have dispelled the myth of the veteran QB, largely because the college game is dictating NFL playbooks, the QB position is becoming more of a commodity and allows dollars to be spent elsewhere.

The Schaub contract should have been Smith's final mistake. There simply is no innovation going on at Reliant.

silvrhand
01-15-2013, 01:03 PM
Checking down isn't the evil some of you think. The other team knows where that first down line is also. The problem with the Texans is that there are really only two players who make plays happen, Foster and Johnson. The Pats have another two or three players who if short of the 1st down can make moves, power, etc. to still convert.

But when the entire team is now pushing the coverage or the ball down the field, then you can sit on the 10-20 yard routes, and force the short 3-4 yards passes to a guy that gets no separation.

eriadoc
01-15-2013, 01:09 PM
Checking down isn't the evil some of you think.

All things in moderation.

Texecutioner
01-15-2013, 01:16 PM
Bottom line, if you're not willing to move up into the top 5 your chances of landing your qb of the future are miniscule.

Pretty much, but these first time NFL fans and extremists see guys like Kapernick and Wilson being drafted last off season and that's all they see. They either have no idea about the other dozens of QB's that teams run through just like them that never pan out and just delay their QB situation even further, or they don't care. They just want to complain and use unrealistic answers to a problem.

I'd love to go out and get another QB. I just know about the odds in those late early rounds. I'd rather move up to the top 5 of the draft and get a guy who looks to have a really high ceiling and better odds at being a great player then these 3rd round type guys that people think are these easy picks to QB your team.

Mr teX
01-15-2013, 01:16 PM
No. LOL.

Who is coming and who is not coming has 0 to do with determining the mike.

The qb identifies the mike so the o line knows where there initial steps and eyes should go. It determines which o lineman is responsible for which player.

And it's not even as important on passing plays as it is on running plays.

In the first game Brady was mostly calling out the mike on running plays. I was screaming at my tv yelling run.

In this past game, the first time he called out the mike I screamed draw! And sure enough it was a draw and everyone I was watching the game with looked at me.



He did mix it up and call it on some passes this game though. But I think he did that to mostly throw the defense off.

Brady isn't calling out who the texans are putting at mike. He's calling out who he's choosing to be the mike so he can get favorable blocking assignments.

In a zbs you don't normally identify the mike because it doesn't matter. O linemen make their blocking calls based on what they see and once the ball is hiked, you trust your steps.

Lol, you said all that to basically confirm what i said from the bolded...to determine how to adjust protections and audibles... mosts times you see these guys doing it b/c they think a blitz is coming somewhere up the middle or is being threatened. I just spoke on it from the passing side and you spoke on it from the running side.

deucetx
01-15-2013, 01:28 PM
Think you guys turned back to another Schaub talk. Regards to Schaub. He is not a top 10 quarterback at this time. Find it hard to go with that after how he closed the season/playoffs. Not to mention it's hard to say top ten if you can't even throw it down the field. Alex Smith can work a short game too and I definitely don't consider him top ten.

With that said...he isn't going anywhere and this is where I agree with the OP. If he isn't going anywhere then what choice do you have? Go status quo or improve the pieces around him to help make him better? He is just not the type of quarterback that will make players better. Instead, it is the other way around. And let's be honest...these receivers are not even medicore save the obvious one. Young receivers usually need some time to develop. Well we're contenders NOW so we may not have that luxury and with Posey questionable it makes it more difficult.

Tight ends? Decent but Daniels appeared a step slower later in the year and Graham started having head issues. So yes, we do need to get some pieces around Schaub. He needs those to be productive. He has Dre and Foster who can actually get YAC in this system. Daniels use to but lately just doesn't seem that guy. So when you have a system based on the playmakers making plays then you need actual playmakers.

And there is the point others stated. We need some more flexibility in this offense. No changes at the line and heck, we don't even change the snap count lol. Now I'm not sure if Payne is right or not as I heard another Texans insider say Schaub does get 2-3 plays he can change to if needed at the line. But is Kubiak overly strict in this? Will Schaub get berated for doing so? Or the alternative plays rarely better choices? Just things we don't know but from just observations it seems Kubiak has a bit of a stranglehold on the offense. It's why I would like an actual offensive coordinator with a different mind.

In other words...not another former Bronco.

Texanmike02
01-15-2013, 01:30 PM
Pretty much, but these first time NFL fans and extremists see guys like Kapernick and Wilson being drafted last off season and that's all they see. They either have no idea about the other dozens of QB's that teams run through just like them that never pan out and just delay their QB situation even further, or they don't care. They just want to complain and use unrealistic answers to a problem.

I'd love to go out and get another QB. I just know about the odds in those late early rounds. I'd rather move up to the top 5 of the draft and get a guy who looks to have a really high ceiling and better odds at being a great player then these 3rd round type guys that people think are these easy picks to QB your team.

About the second paragraph. Even then the chances of getting a guy that is better than schaub in his first two or three years is almost zilch. My whole point is that if you just don't think you can win with Schaub then scrap the whole thing and start building for 2015-2016 because by the time you get a QB that can take you past the 2nd round of the playoffs you will be in there. You will waste the best years of Cushing Joseph, Manning, Foster, Brown et al developing a QB. Maybe you have to do that, maybe Schaub is not the answer... but it sure seems more likely that going out and getting a legit number 2/3 WR might get you to the same place a few years sooner. Bowe, Hartline, Jennings. I can't say it enough. If we have a receiver like that on our roster other than AJ then you put yourself in the position to have a chance to make a SB run over the next 2-3 years... if you start over at QB I'm doubtful you see the playoffs, much less the SB over the next 2-3 years.

Mike

Mr teX
01-15-2013, 01:43 PM
Think you guys turned back to another Schaub talk. Regards to Schaub. He is not a top 10 quarterback at this time. Find it hard to go with that after how he closed the season/playoffs. Not to mention it's hard to say top ten if you can't even throw it down the field. Alex Smith can work a short game too and I definitely don't consider him top ten.

With that said...he isn't going anywhere and this is where I agree with the OP. If he isn't going anywhere then what choice do you have? Go status quo or improve the pieces around him to help make him better? He is just not the type of quarterback that will make players better. Instead, it is the other way around. And let's be honest...these receivers are not even medicore save the obvious one. Young receivers usually need some time to develop. Well we're contenders NOW so we may not have that luxury and with Posey questionable it makes it more difficult.

Tight ends? Decent but Daniels appeared a step slower later in the year and Graham started having head issues. So yes, we do need to get some pieces around Schaub. He needs those to be productive. He has Dre and Foster who can actually get YAC in this system. Daniels use to but lately just doesn't seem that guy. So when you have a system based on the playmakers making plays then you need actual playmakers.

And there is the point others stated. We need some more flexibility in this offense. No changes at the line and heck, we don't even change the snap count lol. Now I'm not sure if Payne is right or not as I heard another Texans insider say Schaub does get 2-3 plays he can change to if needed at the line. But is Kubiak overly strict in this? Will Schaub get berated for doing so? Or the alternative plays rarely better choices? Just things we don't know but from just observations it seems Kubiak has a bit of a stranglehold on the offense. It's why I would like an actual offensive coordinator with a different mind.

In other words...not another former Bronco.

I think we know what those "audibles" are..2 of which are 2 plays that we've been complaining about for a while now.

1. WR bubble screen to AJ
2. draw to Foster
3. 4 yd. curl to AJ

That's the only explanation i can come up with for running those plays on 3rd and forever all the time.

Like i've said, if we can see this, what makes you think that other HC's can't? Very rarely do you see Schaub and this offense radically change their formation if they are audibling. There may be audibles but they're like basic, unimaginative, stale audibles.

handswarmer
01-15-2013, 02:21 PM
I'm not saying he's in the Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Brees class. I do think he is in that next tier of QBs though. He falls between 6-10 for me. I guarantee you if we released him today at least 2/3 of the league would consider him an upgrade over their QB.

Mike

More like 14 to 20...only reason that 14 teams would pick him upis because of the Matt Cassel's. Brady Quinn's, Carson Palmers, kevin Kolb's, Mark Sanchez's, Tony Romo's, Vick's, Fitzpatrick, etc....

Not like there is a whole lotta competition

Texecutioner
01-15-2013, 02:38 PM
About the second paragraph. Even then the chances of getting a guy that is better than schaub in his first two or three years is almost zilch. My whole point is that if you just don't think you can win with Schaub then scrap the whole thing and start building for 2015-2016 because by the time you get a QB that can take you past the 2nd round of the playoffs you will be in there. You will waste the best years of Cushing Joseph, Manning, Foster, Brown et al developing a QB. Maybe you have to do that, maybe Schaub is not the answer... but it sure seems more likely that going out and getting a legit number 2/3 WR might get you to the same place a few years sooner. Bowe, Hartline, Jennings. I can't say it enough. If we have a receiver like that on our roster other than AJ then you put yourself in the position to have a chance to make a SB run over the next 2-3 years... if you start over at QB I'm doubtful you see the playoffs, much less the SB over the next 2-3 years.

Mike


I disagree big time based off of what I saw out of Schaub at the end of the season. I'm not saying that it would be easy either by any means, but if we could get a guy with a really good arm that can get out of the pocket and buy time while improving the defense, it isn't out of the question to assume that we can get a guy that could possibly do better for us in the playoffs. Big Ben almost made the SB his rookie year and he was nothing but a game manager for the most part, but he was able to improvise and extend plays just like he does now.

Rey
01-15-2013, 02:38 PM
About the second paragraph. Even then the chances of getting a guy that is better than schaub in his first two or three years is almost zilch.

Its definitely zilch if you don't try.

handswarmer
01-15-2013, 02:39 PM
Its definitely zilch if you don't try.

Bingo!

deucetx
01-15-2013, 02:46 PM
I think we know what those "audibles" are..2 of which are 2 plays that we've been complaining about for a while now.

1. WR bubble screen to AJ
2. draw to Foster
3. 4 yd. curl to AJ

That's the only explanation i can come up with for running those plays on 3rd and forever all the time.

Like i've said, if we can see this, what makes you think that other HC's can't? Very rarely do you see Schaub and this offense radically change their formation if they are audibling. There may be audibles but they're like basic, unimaginative, stale audibles.

LOL this is funny and sad at the same time. Scares me that I think this could honestly be true.

Double Barrel
01-15-2013, 03:25 PM
Compare lists?

Mike

Sure (just for fun). It's not really a debate, but more of discussion. I'm more curious of those middle QBs, because there will be some we both agree on at each end of the spectrum.

This is not about who we think is better, but rather who we think would want to get rid of their current QB in favor of Schaub (based upon your statement: "I guarantee you if we released him today at least 2/3 of the league would consider him an upgrade over their QB.")

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_starting_quarterbacks) is where I got this list (updated week 17).

Blue for teams that I think would not want Schaub.

Red for teams that I think that would want Schaub.

AFC East:
Buffalo Bills: Ryan Fitzpatrick
Miami Dolphins: Ryan Tannehill
New England Patriots: Tom Brady
New York Jets: Mark Sanchez

AFC North:
Baltimore Ravens: Joe Flacco
Cincinnati Bengals: Andy Dalton
Cleveland Browns: Thaddeus Lewis
Pittsburgh Steelers: Ben Roethlisberger

AFC South:
Indianapolis Colts: Andrew Luck
Jacksonville Jaguars: Chad Henne
Tennessee Titans: Jake Locker

AFC West:
Denver Broncos: Peyton Manning
Kansas City Chiefs: Brady Quinn
Oakland Raiders: Terrelle Pryor
San Diego Chargers: Philip Rivers

NFC East:
Dallas Cowboys: Tony Romo
New York Giants: Eli Manning
Philadelphia Eagles: Michael Vick
Washington Redskins: Robert Griffin III

NFC North:
Chicago Bears: Jay Cutler
Detroit Lions: Matthew Stafford
Green Bay Packers: Aaron Rodgers
Minnesota Vikings: Christian Ponder

NFC South:
Atlanta Falcons: Matt Ryan
Carolina Panthers: Cam Newton
New Orleans Saints: Drew Brees
Tampa Bay Buccaneers: Josh Freeman

NFC West:
Arizona Cardinals: Brian Hoyer
San Francisco 49ers: Colin Kaepernick
Seattle Seahawks: Russell Wilson
St. Louis Rams: Sam Bradford

I have 10 teams on my list that I feel would immediately pick up Schaub and "consider him an upgrade over their QB".

Your mileage may vary. I look forward to your reply. :howdy:

p.s. Keep in mind this is not a debate of "who is better". For instance, the Cowboys are not getting rid of Romo, regardless if Schaub is available. So please keep that in mind.

Mr teX
01-15-2013, 03:30 PM
Its definitely zilch if you don't try.

112 qbs taken in the draft since 2002, a total of 34 in the first, 46 total if you add the 2nd round in.

of that 112, 25 of those qbs were starters for the majority of the season for teams last year........

19 of those 25 were 1st rounders........that's around 80% of the 25 that were starters and ironically around 80% of the starters in the league period.

Of those 1st rounders, the lowest selection of all those was Rodgers at 24.

Now, lets look at the percentages of finding a very good starter outside of the 1st round.

Only 4 of the 25 were drafted outside of the 1st..Schaub being the lowest of all those i believe in the 3rd round....that's around what, 18%?

the other 3 who were drafted outside of the 1st?....all were selected these last 2 years...Dalton, Kap and Wilson. But if you take these last 2 remarkable years away that's 1 guy in the last 10 years of the 25 starters that has managed to stick around in this league & be a decent starter....that's a little over a 3% chance.

the numbers might be off a little depending on how you want to handle Arizona's qb debackle but not by much. So, it's not quite zilch, but damn close to it....If we're going to go for a qb, it needs to be in the 1st; even then its still an iffy proposition b/c i didn't even go into detail about how many of those 25 starters were at least as good or better than schaub...the numbers would suggest that its pretty high.

deucetx
01-15-2013, 03:50 PM
Sure (just for fun). It's not really a debate, but more of discussion. I'm more curious of those middle QBs, because there will be some we both agree on at each end of the spectrum.

This is not about who we think is better, but rather who we think would want to get rid of their current QB in favor of Schaub (based upon your statement: "I guarantee you if we released him today at least 2/3 of the league would consider him an upgrade over their QB.")



Good listing though I think you're being generous in some, heh. I think a few of those you say would be interested probably wouldn't:

Dolphins: Tannenhill showed too much promise for them to want Schaub in my opinion. He has a higher ceiling though they'll be lucky if it works out in the end. Got to root for an aggie though...at least some of us, heh.

Bengals: Schaub and Dalton are really not much different except Dalton is young and a bit more athletic so you would keep the younger guy over a veteran who really hasn't accomplished a lot. Plus if he can't toss it downfield you're wasting one of the best young receiver in the league in Green.

Titans: Locker still young and promising. They hated even putting Hasslebach (sp) out there so they wouldn't want to go with Schaub with more potential with Locker...even if I think he's average, heh.

Vikings: I think they'd take Schaub over Ponder right now. This one is a close one though so could swing either direction really. Guess it matters how much promise they see in the kid. I didn't much of anything except someone who would be a great backup.

So I would take your eleven down to eight but raise it up to a possible nine. Heh, could call it 8.5 since the Vikings is a push. But I sure don't see no 2/3 of the league...

Kaiser Toro
01-15-2013, 03:54 PM
112 qbs taken in the draft since 2002, a total of 34 in the first, 46 total if you add the 2nd round in.

of that 112, 25 of those qbs were starters for the majority of the season for teams last year........

19 of those 25 were 1st rounders........that's around 80% of the 25 that were starters and ironically around 80% of the starters in the league period.

Of those 1st rounders, the lowest selection of all those was Rodgers at 24.

Now, lets look at the percentages of finding a very good starter outside of the 1st round.

Only 4 of the 25 were drafted outside of the 1st..Schaub being the lowest of all those i believe in the 3rd round....that's around what, 18%?

the other 3 who were drafted outside of the 1st?....all were selected these last 2 years...Dalton, Kap and Wilson. But if you take these last 2 remarkable years away that's 1 guy in the last 10 years of the 25 starters that has managed to stick around in this league & be a decent starter....that's a little over a 3% chance.

the numbers might be off a little depending on how you want to handle Arizona's qb debackle but not by much. So, it's not quite zilch, but damn close to it....If we're going to go for a qb, it needs to be in the 1st; even then its still an iffy proposition b/c i didn't even go into detail about how many of those 25 starters were at least as good or better than schaub...the numbers would suggest that its pretty high.

Everything changed in 2011. These numbers are not a true compare given the disruptive force of the rookie labor pool being skewed towards the spread and speed, and the CBA. The last two years are the baseline or the new normal.

Having an offensive scheme to leverage the new market is the major issue. We do not have an innovator at HC or in the Front office, and that is why we are at our ceiling during this time of major disruption. In McNair's terms, we are having scaling issues.

Bulls on Parade
01-15-2013, 03:59 PM
I went back and rewatched our game. Painful. But I was specifically looking for something.
What about those dropped passes by James Casey and Arian Foster in the 1st quarter? The Casey drop cost us a Touchdown on our first drive and we settled for three. The Foster drop came on a third-down pass that had a potential big gain written all over it and we ended up punting. He had the linebacker beat and the ball just glanced off his hands as he reached low for it. Perhaps Schaub needed to throw it a couple inches higher but Foster makes that play most of the time.

We had a chance to go up 14-0 in that game. It wasn't even Schaub's fault. We dropped passes we needed to make, plain and simple. Guys who usually make those plays also. The frustrating part is our offense did get into a nice little Rhythm. They had made three consecutive first downs on three straight plays prior to the Arian Foster drop on that fourth set of downs.

After that 1st quarter, in which I felt we totally out-played the Patriots but somehow trailed 7-3, I knew we were facing an uphill battle thanks to not making the key plays on offense.

There is no need for me to re-watch the game. I can go off what I watched during the live game. We blew it in the first half. We could have easily had a nice little halftime lead instead of trailing 17-13.

Once the second half started, it was the Patriots game to win. We had already blown our chance in the first half, more specifically the first quarter. This team needed to score a couple Touchdowns early on. They needed a 14-0 lead and not a pathetic 3-0 lead.

Bulls on Parade
01-15-2013, 04:16 PM
People are complaining about Schaub and Kubiak but the problem is we dropped some balls that should have been caught. We lost the game because we didn't make the offensive plays we needed to make. Had we taken a two-score lead like we had a great chance to do early on, that would have changed everything. The entire game after that would have been a lot different. It would have been our game to control.

The Patriots were very beatable but we let them off the hook. That first half was ours for the taking and we simply blew our chances. I'm not sure we would have won this game even with a healthy Brian Cushing (assuming those dropped passes by Casey and Foster still take place), but I do think we could have held New England to 31 points (tops) and not 41. And I feel our offense left so many points on the table. They could have scored more than 31 points in that game.

But sigh, on to the long and boring off-season. Next year I don't want to hear people criticize Kubiak and Schaub. We have a great team that can win a Super Bowl. We just need a little luck staying healthy and our players to make the plays that are given to them.

Making plays... Bottom Line... We didn't do that at Foxboro.

Anyways. I'm done ranting. That's my two cents. I'm not talking about the Texans again until the NFL Draft.

Mr teX
01-15-2013, 04:18 PM
Everything changed in 2011. These numbers are not a true compare given the disruptive force of the rookie labor pool being skewed towards the spread and speed, and the CBA. The last two years are the baseline or the new normal.

Having an offensive scheme to leverage the new market is the major issue. We do not have an innovator at HC or in the Front office, and that is why we are at our ceiling during this time of major disruption. In McNair's terms, we are having scaling issues.

Ehh, saying everything has changed is the easy way out though. Everyone said the same thing back in the early 2000's when Mcnabb, Culpepper and later Vick came on the seen. They were "changing the way the position is played.." The truth is that the only qb of those that was able to stick around and be good was the 1 that could kill you sitting back in the pocket....Mcnabb.

The truth is defenses will figure it out.. the zone read and all of this college type offense stuff i mean b/c they always have. & though the rules of the game have been slanted to the offense and qbs, the basic premise is still the same (hit the guy with the ball as hard as you can) and the emphasis on concussions favors the defense b/c getting a lick on the qb is a defensive persons dream.

& most of these young qbs can't stand up to being hit by a 250+ defensive person too many times...let alone them wanting to. So if these coaches are going to continually keep putting their qb's in harms way like that...well, you know how it goes, all it takes is 1 hit...The new crop of running qb's look promising but ultimately, they've got to show that they will be able to consistently beat you in the pocket passing the ball over their careers. Cam didn't really figure that out this year.

Jules Winnfield
01-15-2013, 04:23 PM
ohh look its another great o line, great rb, great wr, great te, great defense, great coaching, great special teams + matt schaub = super bowl" thread.

dont you people see something wrong with that thinking?


what do you think is easier to achieve?

having great everything and being stuck with a mediocre qb or getting a great qb?


why is it that schaub has to have great everything before he is held accountable?

JCTexan
01-15-2013, 04:24 PM
Sure (just for fun). It's not really a debate, but more of discussion. I'm more curious of those middle QBs, because there will be some we both agree on at each end of the spectrum.

This is not about who we think is better, but rather who we think would want to get rid of their current QB in favor of Schaub (based upon your statement: "I guarantee you if we released him today at least 2/3 of the league would consider him an upgrade over their QB.")

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_starting_quarterbacks) is where I got this list (updated week 17).

Blue for teams that I think would not want Schaub.

Red for teams that I think that would want Schaub.

AFC East:
Buffalo Bills: Ryan Fitzpatrick
Miami Dolphins: Ryan Tannehill
New England Patriots: Tom Brady
New York Jets: Mark Sanchez

AFC North:
Baltimore Ravens: Joe Flacco
Cincinnati Bengals: Andy Dalton
Cleveland Browns: Thaddeus Lewis
Pittsburgh Steelers: Ben Roethlisberger

AFC South:
Indianapolis Colts: Andrew Luck
Jacksonville Jaguars: Chad Henne
Tennessee Titans: Jake Locker

AFC West:
Denver Broncos: Peyton Manning
Kansas City Chiefs: Brady Quinn
Oakland Raiders: Terrelle Pryor
San Diego Chargers: Philip Rivers

NFC East:
Dallas Cowboys: Tony Romo
New York Giants: Eli Manning
Philadelphia Eagles: Michael Vick
Washington Redskins: Robert Griffin III

NFC North:
Chicago Bears: Jay Cutler
Detroit Lions: Matthew Stafford
Green Bay Packers: Aaron Rodgers
Minnesota Vikings: Christian Ponder

NFC South:
Atlanta Falcons: Matt Ryan
Carolina Panthers: Cam Newton
New Orleans Saints: Drew Brees
Tampa Bay Buccaneers: Josh Freeman

NFC West:
Arizona Cardinals: Brian Hoyer
San Francisco 49ers: Colin Kaepernick
Seattle Seahawks: Russell Wilson
St. Louis Rams: Sam Bradford

I have 10 teams on my list that I feel would immediately pick up Schaub and "consider him an upgrade over their QB".

Your mileage may vary. I look forward to your reply. :howdy:

p.s. Keep in mind this is not a debate of "who is better". For instance, the Cowboys are not getting rid of Romo, regardless if Schaub is available. So please keep that in mind.

This is a more interesting take, I guess. Would certain teams go with their young QB or would they take the veteran that has been known to play at a high (not elite) level? I know right now that I would not take Tannehill, Freeman, Ponder, Locker, etc. to QB the Texans over Schaub next year. The interesting question is would teams take their young, promising QB over Schaub?

Texanmike02
01-15-2013, 04:29 PM
Sure (just for fun). It's not really a debate, but more of discussion. I'm more curious of those middle QBs, because there will be some we both agree on at each end of the spectrum.

This is not about who we think is better, but rather who we think would want to get rid of their current QB in favor of Schaub (based upon your statement: "I guarantee you if we released him today at least 2/3 of the league would consider him an upgrade over their QB.")

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_starting_quarterbacks) is where I got this list (updated week 17).

I thought I worded it well but I was saying that they would get better play out of Schaub than they got last year so we have got a slightly different criteria. For example, I would have said vs Miami that we get better play from Schaub today. In two or three years that may not be the case but as of right now he is a better QB. If this were 2009 I would look at younger QBs but we aren't hoping to open the championship window in 2-3 years, ours is open.

Blue for teams that I think would not want Schaub.

Red for teams that I think that would want Schaub.

AFC East:
Buffalo Bills: Ryan Fitzpatrick
Miami Dolphins: Ryan Tannehill
New England Patriots: Tom Brady
New York Jets: Mark Sanchez

AFC North:
Baltimore Ravens: Joe Flacco
Cincinnati Bengals: Andy Dalton
Cleveland Browns: Thaddeus Lewis
Pittsburgh Steelers: Ben Roethlisberger

AFC South:
Indianapolis Colts: Andrew Luck
Jacksonville Jaguars: Chad Henne
Tennessee Titans: Jake Locker

AFC West:
Denver Broncos: Peyton Manning
Kansas City Chiefs: Brady Quinn
Oakland Raiders: Terrelle Pryor
San Diego Chargers: Philip Rivers

NFC East:
Dallas Cowboys: Tony Romo
New York Giants: Eli Manning
Philadelphia Eagles: Michael Vick
Washington Redskins: Robert Griffin III

NFC North:
Chicago Bears: Jay Cutler
Detroit Lions: Matthew Stafford
Green Bay Packers: Aaron Rodgers
Minnesota Vikings: Christian Ponder

NFC South:
Atlanta Falcons: Matt Ryan
Carolina Panthers: Cam Newton
New Orleans Saints: Drew Brees
Tampa Bay Buccaneers: Josh Freeman

NFC West:
Arizona Cardinals: Brian Hoyer
San Francisco 49ers: Colin Kaepernick
Seattle Seahawks: Russell Wilson
St. Louis Rams: Sam Bradford

Honestly, I should have worded it the other way but I didn't say it well. We get better play than 2/3 of the league. I'll work my list the other way around and see. I wouldn't take Freeman over Schaub for example. Stafford has MUCH better receivers than Schaub ever dreamed of having and was bad most of the year, completing <60% of his passes and only throwing 3 more TDs than INTS.

I'll think on it a little but I'm about to go home and probably won't be able to post again tonight, so maybe tomorrow.

Mike

Texanmike02
01-15-2013, 04:39 PM
ohh look its another great o line, great rb, great wr, great te, great defense, great coaching, great special teams + matt schaub = super bowl" thread.

dont you people see something wrong with that thinking?


what do you think is easier to achieve?

having great everything and being stuck with a mediocre qb or getting a great qb?


why is it that schaub has to have great everything before he is held accountable?

2011
Victor Cruz
Hakeem Nicks
Mario Manningham

2010
Greg Jennings
Donald Driver
James Jones
Jordy Nelson
Jermichael Finley


2009
Colston
Henderson
Shockey
Meachem
Lance More

2008
Hines Ward
Santonio Holmes
Heath Miller
Nate Washington

2007
Plaxico Burress
Amani Toomer
Jermey Shockey

2006
Marvin Harrison
Reggie Wayne
Dallas Clark
Brandon Stokley


You have to go back farther than that (probably NE) to find SB winning teams that DIDN'T have dominant receiving Corps. The teams that did had number 1 or 2 ranked offenses every year.

Mike

Kaiser Toro
01-15-2013, 04:45 PM
Ehh, saying everything has changed is the easy way out though. Everyone said the same thing back in the early 2000's when Mcnabb, Culpepper and later Vick came on the seen. They were "changing the way the position is played.." The truth is that the only qb of those that was able to stick around and be good was the 1 that could kill you sitting back in the pocket....Mcnabb.

The truth is defenses will figure it out.. the zone read and all of this college type offense stuff i mean b/c they always have. & though the rules of the game have been slanted to the offense and qbs, the basic premise is still the same (hit the guy with the ball as hard as you can) and the emphasis on concussions favors the defense b/c getting a lick on the qb is a defensive persons dream.

& most of these young qbs can't stand up to being hit by a 250+ defensive person too many times...let alone them wanting to. So if these coaches are going to continually keep putting their qb's in harms way like that...well, you know how it goes, all it takes is 1 hit...The new crop of running qb's look promising but ultimately, they've got to show that they will be able to consistently beat you in the pocket passing the ball over their careers. Cam didn't really figure that out this year.

It is not the easy way out, since the 2000's compare/example is not even close. This is about the college game being the innovative catalyst to the NFL. This is about the incremental results of these spread QBs in the NFL, and how coaching staffs, player personnel and scouting departments need to change their thinking. This is about a top 5 pick no longer hamstringing a franchise for years.

These young QB's are getting results and are more expendable than ever. This is the commoditization of the QB position happening before our very eyes. Those that buy into it will be successful quickly, those that don't only need to make a GM and HC change.

ArlingtonTexan
01-15-2013, 05:15 PM
But when the entire team is now pushing the coverage or the ball down the field, then you can sit on the 10-20 yard routes, and force the short 3-4 yards passes to a guy that gets no separation.

What I am saying that's a question of talent forcing schaub's decision versus the scheme or poor coaching/playcalling.

Jules Winnfield
01-15-2013, 06:17 PM
2011
Victor Cruz
Hakeem Nicks
Mario Manningham

2010
Greg Jennings
Donald Driver
James Jones
Jordy Nelson
Jermichael Finley


2009
Colston
Henderson
Shockey
Meachem
Lance More

2008
Hines Ward
Santonio Holmes
Heath Miller
Nate Washington

2007
Plaxico Burress
Amani Toomer
Jermey Shockey

2006
Marvin Harrison
Reggie Wayne
Dallas Clark
Brandon Stokley


You have to go back farther than that (probably NE) to find SB winning teams that DIDN'T have dominant receiving Corps. The teams that did had number 1 or 2 ranked offenses every year.

Mike


Dre, Jean, Posey, Martin along with Owen Daniels, Arian Foster, and James Casey are good enough players to win a superbowl with a competent quarterback.

How many different areas of the team are you scapegoat for matt?

Texanmike02
01-15-2013, 06:42 PM
Dre, Jean, Posey, Martin along with Owen Daniels, Arian Foster, and James Casey are good enough players to win a superbowl with a competent quarterback.

How many different areas of the team are you scapegoat for matt?

Dre and Daniels are proven commodities. Foster is too. Posey jean and martin? They couldn't get time in front of Walter.

Mike

thunderkyss
01-15-2013, 06:47 PM
I find it curious that some teams with other QBs always manage to have good #2 and #3 WRs. Do they just hit the jackpot with every guy they draft? These teams almost always have a clear #1 guy, but then they have guys in line that look good in their role.


Do you think these QBs would make Walter look like a stud?

I've got issues with Kubiak's method of getting young, new guys into the lineup. No one would have known who Victor Cruze was if we drafted him.

I know some of us would give Kubiak the benefit of the doubt & helping these players to have long productive careers (whether for us or another team)..... but damn!!

Jules Winnfield
01-15-2013, 06:47 PM
Dre and Daniels are proven commodities. Foster is too. Posey jean and martin? They couldn't get time in front of Walter.

Mike

they couldnt get time in front of walter because kubiak wont let them.

kubiak is the type of guy who would give ted bundy multiple chances.

He's loyal to a detrimental fault.

thunderkyss
01-15-2013, 06:52 PM
Also, there have been plenty times where schaub has forced balls when guys have been open for better looks.



They say a QB (any position really) needs to have a short memory, forget the last play, make the next play, that kind of thing. However, I believe Schaub holds a grudge.

If you've dropped a ball or two, you may be wide open, but Schaub is going to skip you in his progression.

Remember when Andre missed the Raider game last year & Schaub targeted Jacoby 11 times & Jacoby caught none of them? I know I'm alone in this, but if you go back & see where Schaub put those balls.

A little more than the "where only your player can get it" Jacoby had to make a heck of a play to make any of those catches. Maybe he was worried that Jacoby was going to tip it to the bad guys or something, but nobody was going to catch those balls but Jacoby & even then, it was going to be an amazing catch.

thunderkyss
01-15-2013, 06:59 PM
We have players that are a perfect fit for the playbook, but the playbook does not evolve with the half, game, season or speed of the league.


Funny how two years ago our problem was that we started slow & finished strong. During the game, same for the season.

Oh how we dreamed of the day we would start strong, secure a play-off berth early so we could coast through the season, or get up big to start a game & give us some breathing room....

Those were the days.

thunderkyss
01-15-2013, 07:20 PM
Reads bottom to top, from a guy who has been inside the Texans and still has a few friends in there...

Seth Payne ‏@PayneNFL

I like Seth.... but, he played on defense. How do we know that Schaub isn't doing the same thing Brady is doing in less time? Before week 10, he was one of the least sacked QBs in the league. Against Cincinnati, he was clean. Only one sack vs New England.

A lot of quick passes & throw aways to be sure, but there were some decent throws in there as well.

Rey
01-15-2013, 07:21 PM
I like Seth.... but, he played on defense. How do we know that Schaub isn't doing the same thing Brady is doing in less time?

Because we have brains and choose to use them.

AJ-80
01-15-2013, 07:27 PM
Dre and Daniels are proven commodities. Foster is too. Posey jean and martin? They couldn't get time in front of Walter.

Mike
This is the exact reason why we desperately need to use our number one pick on a WR

Mr teX
01-15-2013, 08:01 PM
It is not the easy way out, since the 2000's compare/example is not even close. This is about the college game being the innovative catalyst to the NFL. This is about the incremental results of these spread QBs in the NFL, and how coaching staffs, player personnel and scouting departments need to change their thinking. This is about a top 5 pick no longer hamstringing a franchise for years.

These young QB's are getting results and are more expendable than ever. This is the commoditization of the QB position happening before our very eyes. Those that buy into it will be successful quickly, those that don't only need to make a GM and HC change.

They may get results quicker, but their longevity in the nfl will be determined the same way that all qbs longevity in the nfl are determined...thru their ability to beat teams without their legs and in the passing game.

And The commodization of the qb will never happen b/c of the position's importance. Teams will always favor the big strong armed, pocket passing qb over the running qb simply b/c of the potential for longevity/ stability that their careers provide a franchise. They'll likely continue to pay more for those kinds of guys as well for the same reason.

Arm strength and intelligence passing the ball never really fades...a qb and coach whose offensive effectiveness is partially based on a qb's ability to run around and make things happen does and quite honestly can be taken away much more easily... Just ask RG3....He way less effective once his legs went out from under him. Hell, u see what slow ass matt schaub looks like after his lisc franc.

and The college game isnt influencing anything any more than it has in the past. The run and shoot came and went...the wildcat came and went....the zone read will come and go.

HJam72
01-15-2013, 08:16 PM
Kubiak is loyal to hard workers that don't actually have the minimum physical skills.

By the way, Mr. Kubiak, sir, I will work real hard for just a few million a year. I have almost zero talent, but I surely will. :) You could put me at corner, and I will cover a few short routes successfully enough (a year). I might even make a tackle!, but I will need good insurance. :)

Kaiser Toro
01-15-2013, 09:15 PM
They may get results quicker, but their longevity in the nfl will be determined the same way that all qbs longevity in the nfl are determined...thru their ability to beat teams without their legs and in the passing game.

And The commodization of the qb will never happen b/c of the position's importance. Teams will always favor the big strong armed, pocket passing qb over the running qb simply b/c of the potential for longevity/ stability that their careers provide a franchise. They'll likely continue to pay more for those kinds of guys as well for the same reason.

Arm strength and intelligence passing the ball never really fades...a qb and coach whose offensive effectiveness is partially based on a qb's ability to run around and make things happen does and quite honestly can be taken away much more easily... Just ask RG3....He way less effective once his legs went out from under him. Hell, u see what slow ass matt schaub looks like after his lisc franc.

and The college game isnt influencing anything any more than it has in the past. The run and shoot came and went...the wildcat came and went....the zone read will come and go.

I strongly believe the next five years will be more in line with my forecasting. However, I would be remiss to not state that intelligence never fades as a valuable asset at the position, whether it be a dual threat or the strong arm.

Texan_Bill
01-15-2013, 09:35 PM
We have players that are a perfect fit for the playbook, but the playbook does not evolve with the half, game, season or speed of the league.

Kubiak has us right where he wants us.

The question should be posed to Rick Smith - what is the impact to rip and replace the Kubiak system? My fear is that we have invested in a dying offense, and will continue to make roster decisions that make little impact on the overall results, but puts us in cap hell for when the change occurs.

Not sure what you imply with the bolded, but agree with the first paragraph!

As to the third paragraph, Rick Smith is very much Darryl Morrey. They've made some brilliant and well, not so brilliant decisions. I don't think the offense is dying, I think Schaub's Lisfranc fracture is everything Doc said it would be.

****************

Listen,

I believe this is a failure from Uncle Bob all the way down to the interns handing out gatorade cups on the sideline.

I think its completely disingenuos for people to use their own agendas to put this loss on Schaub, Kubiak, Phillips (oh wait, no one here would ever do that), or Marciano......

****************

Gimme a decent draft. Give me a healthy Cushing and give me a .......... (Christmas list starts here)

AJ-80
01-15-2013, 10:12 PM
It seems that some fans are fine with Walter being the #2 guy next year yet again...

We have to get Shaub another guy. Tavon Austin. Robert Woods. Free Agent. I don't care what the upgrade is, just get an upgrade, its been overdue for about 4 years now.

eriadoc
01-15-2013, 11:14 PM
Do you think these QBs would make Walter look like a stud?

I think those QBs and a few more would make Walter look better than he's looked here. That might be from the slot rather than #2, but I think Walter is in the #2 slot specifically because Kubiak wants him there. I see him as a valuable #3 WR/situational WR.

I've got issues with Kubiak's method of getting young, new guys into the lineup. No one would have known who Victor Cruze was if we drafted him.

I know some of us would give Kubiak the benefit of the doubt & helping these players to have long productive careers (whether for us or another team)..... but damn!!

Just off the top of my head, I don't think Schaubiak would have made the following mid-round WRs look as good as they've looked in their short time in the NFL:

TY Hilton
Randall Cobb
Brandon LaFell
Mike Williams
Jacoby Ford

Furthermore, I don't have any faith that Schaubiak could put together a collective WR corps like the Packers, Giants, Saints, Pats, Broncos, or Eagles. If you look at receiving targets, rather just the WR position, the Colts' look better than ours. I could probably go to NFL.com and look through some teams and find a few more, but I think the point is made.

thunderkyss
01-16-2013, 12:27 AM
I like Seth.... but, he played on defense. How do we know that Schaub isn't doing the same thing Brady is doing in less time? Before week 10, he was one of the least sacked QBs in the league. Against Cincinnati, he was clean. Only one sack vs New England.

A lot of quick passes & throw aways to be sure, but there were some decent throws in there as well.

Because we have brains and choose to use them.

Is that sarcasm, or are you insinuating I'm not using my brain, or both?

Seth is talking about blocking assignments, for the most part we've been picking up the assignments in both the run & pass game alright.

thunderkyss
01-16-2013, 01:00 AM
Furthermore, I don't have any faith that Schaubiak could put together a collective WR corps like the Packers, Giants, Saints, Pats, Broncos, or Eagles. If you look at receiving targets, rather just the WR position, the Colts' look better than ours. I could probably go to NFL.com and look through some teams and find a few more, but I think the point is made.

Nah, I don't know that your point is made. We've got less WR targets than other teams, is that because we have Walter playing the #2 position? Is that because Schaub isn't as good as other QBs?

sounds like your point is that Schaub isn't as good as other QBs. I it's because we have a situational slot receiver playing as our #2

infantrycak
01-16-2013, 02:04 AM
Because we have brains and choose to use them.

First off - Payne is one of my favorite all time Texans players and I think if he could be in 2002 form and play for Wade it would be tremendous. But fact is he never was on the same team as Schaub having been released a month prior. Other than guesswork he doesn't know what Schaub is allowed to do. If audibles were so easy to decipher from TV screens then they wouldn't trick D's now would they? We have absolutely no idea if when Arian motions out of the backfield that was the called play or an audible for instance. Some audibles are changing a route package - we won't know that. People need to stop acting like they know everything.

leebigeztx
01-16-2013, 04:43 AM
There were alot of great takes on this Schaub thing.The way i see it, the texans cant do wrong by adding more explosive players around schaub. Adding more targets helps the next qb too just as it did Kaepernick. Since theyre pretty tight to the cap, they will have to use the draft. I like martin as a slot. Really by drafting martin you can see they were already thinking this way because he doesn't fit the profile at all. Drafting posey is also a guy who doesnt fit because of his problems he had. If they took a chance on a guy like posey, they can wait till the 2nd and draft Darick Rodgers from Tenn Tech who used to be the #1 at Tennessee. I would also bring back Casey and really just run alot of no huddle type stuff. Make the defense play vanilla and try to uptempo and get some cheap tds.

thunderkyss
01-16-2013, 07:25 AM
There were alot of great takes on this Schaub thing.The way i see it, the texans cant do wrong by adding more explosive players around schaub. Adding more targets helps the next qb too just as it did Kaepernick. Since theyre pretty tight to the cap, they will have to use the draft. I like martin as a slot. Really by drafting martin you can see they were already thinking this way because he doesn't fit the profile at all. Drafting posey is also a guy who doesnt fit because of his problems he had. If they took a chance on a guy like posey, they can wait till the 2nd and draft Darick Rodgers from Tenn Tech who used to be the #1 at Tennessee. I would also bring back Casey and really just run alot of no huddle type stuff. Make the defense play vanilla and try to uptempo and get some cheap tds.

I think they've been trying to address the WR position for years. Jacoby Jones was just one of many WRs we've brought in to compete for a spot on the team. Many just didn't make it. Some of the older vets, didn't pan out for one reason or another. Some guys like LeStar Jean got hurt & Dorin Dickerson also didn't work out.

Devier Posey was a nice risk/rewards pick & looked like he was coming along until this achilles thing, & I also like the production we got out of Martin & the fact that he got a lot of playing time early.... just didn't work out for whatever reason.

We can (& I do) question Kubiak's reasoning for keeping guys off the field, but big picture, he's been doing a great job of putting together a winning tradition/organization.

We didn't win the Super Bowl in 2011, or 2012, but to a (wo)man everyone in here thought we should have & that says a lot for how far we've come.

Can Schaub & Kubiak get us there? Who knows. Those questions will fuel the debates here all summer long. I'm looking forward to next season, to see how they respond.

Rey
01-16-2013, 07:39 AM
Cak and tk, you guys can bury your head in the sand all you want.

Seth has played a lot of football and some things are just obvious. Before Seth said what he said, myself and plenty others have said the same thing. I understand you guys are the ultimate homers and you're going to come to the defense of any perceived negativity about the team, but if you think schaub is making the same types of audibles and checks at the line as Brady, you're mistaken.

And with that, I'm done with the schaub talk for a while. He's a different version of John kitna or Chad Pennington.

We're stuck with that for a while and it's nothing we can do about it. Hopefully they can build a greT offense around him to make him look better since apparently the coach and qb can't make guys look better.

thunderkyss
01-16-2013, 09:14 AM
Cak and tk, you guys can bury your head in the sand all you want.

I criticize the team. I criticize the coaches. I'm not burying my head in sand. I think most here are letting their emotions get the better of them. I think a lot of people are seeing 3 or 4 young dynamic QBs have success in the NFL & letting it change what they know to be true, what has been proven time & time again. Those guys are going to have to get better, those guys are going to have to change their game if they are going to have long term success in this league.


Seth has played a lot of football and some things are just obvious. Before Seth said what he said, myself and plenty others have said the same thing. I understand you guys are the ultimate homers and you're going to come to the defense of any perceived negativity about the team, but if you think schaub is making the same types of audibles and checks at the line as Brady, you're mistaken.


I'm sorry if I led you to believe that I think Schaub is making the same audibles at the line that Brady is. I don't think that is even remotely close to reality.

I meant to say that I don't know Matt isn't making the same kind of adjustments in blocking calls as that is what Seth was talking about in the instance I was talking about.

For most of the season, Matt was among the least sacked QB. Arian is the second leading rusher in the AFC.

Obviously something is working. Obviously the calls are being made. Matt's not using the hard count to make those calls.... Matt doesn't take as long at the line to make those calls.

Other than that, I don't know what to tell you.

AJ-80
01-16-2013, 09:44 AM
Matt Shaub has been a solid QB for a while. Only recently have the attacks on his play been justified.

One of my favorite Shaub plays. Of course he got a little help from Andre -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyVd4dqfT-8

Mr teX
01-16-2013, 10:12 AM
Matt Shaub has been a solid QB for a while. Only recently have the attacks on his play been justified.

One of my favorite Shaub plays. Of course he got a little help from Andre -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyVd4dqfT-8

I don't think people really understand how hard it is to go from solid/good --------> great; whether we're talking about an individual position (qb) or as a whole team. It's 1 of the toughest transitions to make in sports.

deucetx
01-16-2013, 10:31 AM
I don't think people really understand how hard it is to go from solid/good --------> great; whether we're talking about an individual position (qb) or as a whole team. It's 1 of the toughest transitions to make in sports.

Very true. It's one reason I wasn't overly upset with the loss. I wanted to see them give their all which I think they did. After that I just came to realize we're simply not ready for them and we can't get to where we need until we are. From all that Gary has said he sees it too and understands it's the road we have to travel if we want the trophy. It all goes through those Pats.

So I am willing to be patient and I think the point of the thread is where they need to start when it comes to offense. Schaub most likely is who he is. We can't change it and no one else is coming. So give him playmakers and guys who will enhance his play.

Double Barrel
01-16-2013, 11:20 AM
I don't think people really understand how hard it is to go from solid/good --------> great; whether we're talking about an individual position (qb) or as a whole team. It's 1 of the toughest transitions to make in sports.

I agree completely. It almost seems mental more than anything else.

Good teams can be depended on to beat the teams they are supposed to beat. Good teams can consistently get to the playoffs. This is where the Texans are right now.

Some teams languish in that good zone and never grow out of it. They are talented enough to go to championship games, but for whatever reason(s), they seem to always fail. Think of the Falcons before this season. They could not even win a playoff game before 2012, even with HFA.

I think the transition from good--->great is what the Texans have to figure out now. If/when that happens, I think this team has enough talent to do some great things.

thunderkyss
01-16-2013, 12:59 PM
I don't think people really understand how hard it is to go from solid/good --------> great; whether we're talking about an individual position (qb) or as a whole team. It's 1 of the toughest transitions to make in sports.

I think what you're saying is true. But how do you explain Green Bay being a top tier team for the last three years, when they were a joke in Bret Favre's last 2 or 3?

How do you explain San Francisco's back to back NFC Championship games & the Jets back to back AFCCG appearance as well.

There's a way to go from 0-90 in a hurry. There's got to be a way from 60-90.

thunderkyss
01-16-2013, 01:06 PM
Good teams can be depended on to beat the teams they are supposed to beat. Good teams can consistently get to the playoffs. This is where the Texans are right now.


ooh.... This is where we hope the Texans are right now, but we don't know. I'm not normally a "Let me see them do it first" guy, but this time, I think it's prudent to wait & see.

The Jets got to back to back AFC Championship games & they proved to be the biggest paper tiger of all. Under Kubiak, we went 6-10, 8-8, 8-8, 9-7, 6-10, 10-6, 12-4

I hadn't figured out if we're headed for a 6-10 year, or a 14-2 season. & if we're headed for a 6-10 season, hold on to your seats.

Mr teX
01-16-2013, 01:21 PM
I think what you're saying is true. But how do you explain Green Bay being a top tier team for the last three years, when they were a joke in Bret Favre's last 2 or 3?

How do you explain San Francisco's back to back AFC Championship games & the Jets back to back appearance as well.

There's a way to go from 0-90 in a hurry. There's got to be a way from 60-90.

In Brett's last couple of years in GB i know they went 13-3 and to the playoffs at least once....and seeing as they had his heir apparent on the bench for a few years before Favre left and they won the SB in Rodgers' 3rd year as a starter i believe, i think it's pretty clear that that team wasn't devoid of talent by any stretch.

SF was also not devoid of talent. Most of everyone that's making it happen for them right now was drafted or brought in under Singletary's regime...All they had to do was make a coaching change to someone 1/2 way competent and you have what you have with them now.

it's not going from 0-90 mph in 1 season that i'm talking about. Its about sustaining that 90 mph over a significant amount of time like the Patriots have....like the Steelers have like the Colts have......all teams who went to the SB at least twice in the past decade and who were constant SB contenders...That is what makes great teams great.

Jules Winnfield
01-16-2013, 03:16 PM
this is freaking david carr all over again.


we have to give matt perfect protection, perfect set of wide recivers, perfect defense behind him, perfect everything.

You people will never learn.

If you're still asking question like whether or not our qb is good enough and he is past 30 years of age already, guess what?

he aint the answer.


why are houstonians so apprehensive about moving on from matt schaub?

Vinny
01-16-2013, 03:21 PM
this is freaking david carr all over again.


we have to give matt perfect protection, perfect set of wide recivers, perfect defense behind him, perfect everything.

You people will never learn.

If you're still asking question like whether or not our qb is good enough and he is past 30 years of age already, guess what?

he aint the answer.


why are houstonians so apprehensive about moving on from matt schaub?The chance to "move on" was not resigning him earlier, but with a salary cap it makes moving him on a moot point since we are paying him so much money going forward. We are stuck with Schaub for the near future. You are the one that is not realistic about how you just dump him. I'd like to move on too...but I know that isn't realistic.

Double Barrel
01-16-2013, 03:29 PM
ooh.... This is where we hope the Texans are right now, but we don't know. I'm not normally a "Let me see them do it first" guy, but this time, I think it's prudent to wait & see.

The Jets got to back to back AFC Championship games & they proved to be the biggest paper tiger of all. Under Kubiak, we went 6-10, 8-8, 8-8, 9-7, 6-10, 10-6, 12-4

I hadn't figured out if we're headed for a 6-10 year, or a 14-2 season. & if we're headed for a 6-10 season, hold on to your seats.

No, we are back-to-back division leaders and have two seasons of going to the playoffs and winning a game in each post-season.

We can see consistency based upon history. This is not predictions, but just stating the obvious fact that the Texans are a good team right now. Not great, but good.

I do not have to hope for what has already happened.

this is freaking david carr all over again.

Pure unadulterated hyperbole.

we have to give matt perfect protection, perfect set of wide recivers, perfect defense behind him, perfect everything.

You people will never learn.

If you're still asking question like whether or not our qb is good enough and he is past 30 years of age already, guess what?

he aint the answer.


why are houstonians so apprehensive about moving on from matt schaub?


You do realize that we are stuck with Schaub for at least two more years?

You do realize that fans have absolutely no influence on how the team operates or who they pick as players?

Your post seems to be directed at the Texans front office but is posted on a fan message board.

Perhaps you want to send your thoughts to bob.mcnair@houstontexans.com?

Mr teX
01-16-2013, 03:46 PM
this is freaking david carr all over again.


we have to give matt perfect protection, perfect set of wide recivers, perfect defense behind him, perfect everything.

You people will never learn.

If you're still asking question like whether or not our qb is good enough and he is past 30 years of age already, guess what?

he aint the answer.


why are houstonians so apprehensive about moving on from matt schaub?

Where do u get this crap from? Noone on either side of this debate has said anything remotely close to what you're saying in this post. Everyone wants an upgrade at Qb...it's just how we go about it and who we think would be an upgrade is where the disagreement lies.

& this isn't anywhere close to the David Carr situation except for the fact that people like you think that this teams failures are 90% b/c of the qb and people like us who know better. David Carr was a disaster in every sense of the word at qb. Yet and still, even when we upgraded from him with Schaub, we still needed serious upgrades on the O-line and in the WR core and on the defensive side of the ball before we became competitive. We're not calling for "perfection" as you claim, We're calling for better than mediocore to below average play from all of our trouble spots; just like you are with Schaub.

thunderkyss
01-16-2013, 04:54 PM
this is freaking david carr all over again.


we have to give matt perfect protection, perfect set of wide recivers, perfect defense behind him, perfect everything.

You people will never learn.

If you're still asking question like whether or not our qb is good enough and he is past 30 years of age already, guess what?

he aint the answer.


why are houstonians so apprehensive about moving on from matt schaub?

Big difference.

We had to surround David Carr with ProBowlers to have a winning season. Matt did hat without a Running back, defense, or an OL.

We need to surround Matt with ProBowlers to win our division & championships, no different than any other QB.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 05:15 PM
No, we are back-to-back division leaders and have two seasons of going to the playoffs and winning a game in each post-season.

We can see consistency based upon history. This is not predictions, but just stating the obvious fact that the Texans are a good team right now. Not great, but good.

I do not have to hope for what has already happened.



Pure unadulterated hyperbole.




You do realize that we are stuck with Schaub for at least two more years?

You do realize that fans have absolutely no influence on how the team operates or who they pick as players?

Your post seems to be directed at the Texans front office but is posted on a fan message board.

Perhaps you want to send your thoughts to bob.mcnair@houstontexans.com?

I wish we can trade Schaub for even a fifth or even seventh rounder.
Give the ball to Keenum with Yates and another draft pick in the fold in case injury happens.

I gave Schaub his chance.
Trading Schaub is mainly to clear cap space so that we can get other players in to help the team, not to get rid of him.

I don't want to drive Keenum down people's throat, but man, in this day and age.

Here's a guy that can run the no huddle like there's no tomorrow.

So often he had his guys lined-up and ready to go and "bitching" for the refs to hurry up to spot the ball.

Have you ever seen a team run 2 pass plays and 2 run plays in 25 seconds?

Remember now that after every run play, the clock continues to run.

It was the most incredible feast I've ever seen a QB done.
It's like snap snap, he got to all the guys and get them ready for the next play even as the previous play barely finishes.

As the RB was ready to go down, he was already on his linemen to get up and go; it was just amazing to watch.

Rey
01-16-2013, 06:18 PM
I wish we can trade Schaub for even a fifth or even seventh rounder.
Give the ball to Keenum with Yates and another draft pick in the fold in case injury happens.

I gave Schaub his chance.
Trading Schaub is mainly to clear cap space so that we can get other players in to help the team, not to get rid of him.

I don't want to drive Keenum down people's throat, but man, in this day and age.

Here's a guy that can run the no huddle like there's no tomorrow.

So often he had his guys lined-up and ready to go and "bitching" for the refs to hurry up to spot the ball.

Have you ever seen a team run 2 pass plays and 2 run plays in 25 seconds?

Remember now that after every run play, the clock continues to run.

It was the most incredible feast I've ever seen a QB done.
It's like snap snap, he got to all the guys and get them ready for the next play even as the previous play barely finishes.

As the RB was ready to go down, he was already on his linemen to get up and go; it was just amazing to watch.

I would honestly like to see Keenum progress to starter capability. But I still have my reservations about his fit in this offense. And I don't know if kubiak would make an exception just for Keenum.

He'd have to change his offensive mindset a bit...

But if he did go to a more hurry up offense I think the bootleg and run game would actually work better...defenses would be rushing tk get lined up this making the more reactionary and more likely to bite on fakes. Would also help the run game because defenses wouldn't be able to get set as fast

76Texan
01-16-2013, 06:56 PM
[QUOTE=Rey;2110783]I would honestly like to see Keenum progress to starter capability. But I still have my reservations about his fit in this offense. And I don't know if kubiak would make an exception just for Keenum.

He'd have to change his offensive mindset a bit...

But if he did go to a more hurry up offense I think the bootleg and run game would actually work better...defenses would be rushing tk get lined up this making the more reactionary and more likely to bite on fakes. Would also help the run game because defenses wouldn't be able to get set as fast[/QUOTE
You have always had an an open-mind toward Keenum, so there's no worry there.

There's just a reminder for those who watches his plays.

Basically the defense couldn't keep up with the pace of the offense , the Coogs had to tone of down to go at a slower pace in the second half of the season.

Otherwise, if neck-breaking is your pace, Keenum is for you.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 07:10 PM
Also I'd like to make clear that there's a time clock and there's a play clock.

They are different.

If you want to see how fast the team moves, you need to pay attention to both .

boom boom
01-16-2013, 07:17 PM
Also I'd like to make clear that there's a time clock and there's a play clock.

They are different.

If you want to see how fast the team moves, you need to pay attention to both .
again as a pats fan i dont think the texans are far from getting to a super bowl. with a few key addition which in my opinion should come from free agency they are a complete team there physical, skilled, athletic, and jj watt, arian foster, andre johnson, plus cushing being injured hurt. a healthy cushing and there a damn good football team. there going to a super bowl soon, trust me and if the afc has to go thru reliant stadium, nobody next year is beating the texans.besides losing to us, you guys dominated every other team pretty much with the exception of the packers. the texans will be fine.

gafftop
01-16-2013, 07:32 PM
this is freaking david carr all over again.


we have to give matt perfect protection, perfect set of wide recivers, perfect defense behind him, perfect everything.

You people will never learn.

If you're still asking question like whether or not our qb is good enough and he is past 30 years of age already, guess what?

he aint the answer.


why are houstonians so apprehensive about moving on from matt schaub?

09-18-2009 #1
gafftop
Hall of Fame


Join Date: Apr 2006
Age: 54
Posts: 1,268
Rep Power: 1843 Texans' Offense and Schaub, Poor Match

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I heard on the radio MS can be successful only if all the planets align. Well the planets aren't aligned in the Texans offense. Let's look more closely. Even when 110% MS is not the most mobile QB. MS is not the most durable QB. MS not great arm stength. The Texans' line is not the most dominant line. The lack of mobility (especially last week against the Jets, ankle) of MS means that he can't buy any time and make something happen unlike some other QB's that are able to scramble and allow the receivers to create. Therefore we can't utilize AJ physical talents on a busted play. This is even made worse because MS can't affford to take a hit, unlike some QB's that can stay in the pocket until the last second and let the play develope. If we had a QB that could take a hit we would gain some time, or if we had a QB that could scramble and buy some time we could maybe make some conpletions and maybe come up with the big play. We have the receivers to do this but due to the above factors we were unable to do this last week against the Jets. That is why the offense was so pitiful. I understand the PROBLEM is our offensive line. But our offensive line may be just what is was last week for the entire season. The more i write the more depressed I become. The defense only needs to shut down AJ with double coverage and get after MS and we have last week's outcome again this week. I guess what I am getting at is if MS is not healthy and mobile and Kubiak is determined to play MS no matter what like last week, we will have a repeat of last week. I was a Kubiak fan until last week. His inability to get the team up and prepared along with the POOR judgement in playing MS really makes me wonder. I guess getting back to the title, with our Oline we would be better off with a very mobile QB or a QB that can take a hit every once in a while. We have neither in MS. Would appreciate comment that give me some hope. thanks


Matt>Carr but our goals are higher now.

Matt is still Matt only older and sadly doesn't really seem wiser. See post above made Sept 2009. The facts were there then.

I have stated before that we in this draft we need to improve our D. I think Matt will waste any new young WR with talent. Our best chance with Matt as our QB is a great defense. Also improve Oline. In fact if we don't create TOs on D we won't even make playoffs next year. Just my feelings.

Texan_Bill
01-16-2013, 07:47 PM
Stats are for Losers, both pro and con....

I like what Dan Pastorini had to say on the radio yesterday.

*Paraphrasing*

Matt Schaub is smart. Matt Schaub has the arm strength to make any throw he wants.. Matt Schaub's problems have to deal with his footwork, getting the ball out quick enough to hit Andre in stride and that the QB coach, if Kubiak doesn't notice it, needs to 'speed up' Schaub's delivery on called deep balls"...

Dante went on to say that the reason it looks like Schaub underthrows 'Dre is because he's getting the ball off late. In other words, if they are taking a shot deep, Schaub needs to get the ball out earlier.

Made sense to me. Now, the question is:
A) Will Dante talk to his old "ball boy" (for you youngsters, that would be Kubiak)?
B) If not Dante, will someone within the organization that heard that assessment put a bug in Kubiaks ear?
C) Business as usual?

????

*EDIT*

As an aside, the Texans had no chance of winning with James and Ruud starting as OLB's. #FACT

76Texan
01-16-2013, 09:46 PM
Stats are for Losers, both pro and con....

I like what Dan Pastorini had to say on the radio yesterday.

*Paraphrasing*

Matt Schaub is smart. Matt Schaub has the arm strength to make any throw he wants.. Matt Schaub's problems have to deal with his footwork, getting the ball out quick enough to hit Andre in stride and that the QB coach, if Kubiak doesn't notice it, needs to 'speed up' Schaub's delivery on called deep balls"...

Dante went on to say that the reason it looks like Schaub underthrows 'Dre is because he's getting the ball off late. In other words, if they are taking a shot deep, Schaub needs to get the ball out earlier.

Made sense to me. Now, the question is:
A) Will Dante talk to his old "ball boy" (for you youngsters, that would be Kubiak)?
B) If not Dante, will someone within the organization that heard that assessment put a bug in Kubiaks ear?
C) Business as usual?

????

*EDIT*

As an aside, the Texans had no chance of winning with James and Ruud starting as OLB's. #FACTI love Dante for his guts, not for his skills nor what went on between his ears.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 10:03 PM
I had wished that Pastorini can be as sneaky as Stabler; that would had been a great combination.

infantrycak
01-16-2013, 10:11 PM
I wish we can trade Schaub for even a fifth or even seventh rounder.
Give the ball to Keenum with Yates and another draft pick in the fold in case injury happens.

I gave Schaub his chance.
Trading Schaub is mainly to clear cap space so that we can get other players in to help the team, not to get rid of him.

Trading Schaub would free up no cap space this year. What you should be hoping for to support Keenum is a flip in the depth chart to Keenum at #2 so he can work more with Schaub and get more snaps.

76Texan
01-16-2013, 10:26 PM
Trading Schaub would free up no cap space this year. What you should be hoping for to support Keenum is a flip in the depth chart to Keenum at #2 so he can work more with Schaub and get more snaps.

I never know how that stuff works; if another team trade for Schaub, are we free of the financial obligation?

Texan_Bill
01-16-2013, 10:29 PM
I had wished that Pastorini can be as sneaky as Stabler; that would had been a great combination.

Stabler played for the Oilers. He didn't fare so well here.

The beauty of Pastorini wasn't his toughness. The beauty of Pastorini was his ability of working with the talent he had around him, which wasn't much (save Earl). The magnificent beauty of those Oiler teams were that Bum got the most out of guys like Carl Mauck and yes Pastorini....

No offense.... You study all the film you want to, some of us lived it.

If Dante notices something in Schaub's approach and/or foot work that leads "lay-football" fans (or in the case of all these experts here on TexansTalk) to assume that Schaub has a weak arm, I'm going with Dante's assessment..

As Dante said, Schaub can throw the ball 50-60 yards and not "underthrow" AJ as the so-called experts around here suggest. The problem is that he takes too long to get the ball off to AJ on a deep route.

infantrycak
01-16-2013, 10:54 PM
I never know how that stuff works; if another team trade for Schaub, are we free of the financial obligation?

We are free of his future salary but all the un-prorated signing bonus goes onto our cap as dead money.

Vinny
01-16-2013, 10:58 PM
Stabler played for the Oilers. He didn't fare so well here.

The beauty of Pastorini wasn't his toughness. The beauty of Pastorini was his ability of working with the talent he had around him, which wasn't much (save Earl). The magnificent beauty of those Oiler teams were that Bum got the most out of guys like Carl Mauck and yes Pastorini....

No offense.... You study all the film you want to, some of us lived it.

If Dante notices something in Schaub's approach and/or foot work that leads "lay-football" fans (or in the case of all these experts here on TexansTalk) to assume that Schaub has a weak arm, I'm going with Dante's assessment..

As Dante said, Schaub can throw the ball 50-60 yards and not "underthrow" AJ as the so-called experts around here suggest. The problem is that he takes too long to get the ball off to AJ on a deep route.
Pastorini was a hell of a qb till his knees gave out. He could run too. Top QB prospect out of College but got Archie Manning'd and paid the price with guys like Mo Towns protecting his backside. Since he was in an era where you could mug the wr anywhere on the field and mug the quarterback as well....those stats don't shine like today's stats....but I'd take Dan over Schaub any time. Schaub couldn't play in that era...he'd be the walking dead. I agree with your assessment on Dante's opinion as well.

76Texan
01-17-2013, 12:55 AM
Stabler played for the Oilers. He didn't fare so well here.

The beauty of Pastorini wasn't his toughness. The beauty of Pastorini was his ability of working with the talent he had around him, which wasn't much (save Earl). The magnificent beauty of those Oiler teams were that Bum got the most out of guys like Carl Mauck and yes Pastorini....

No offense.... You study all the film you want to, some of us lived it.

If Dante notices something in Schaub's approach and/or foot work that leads "lay-football" fans (or in the case of all these experts here on TexansTalk) to assume that Schaub has a weak arm, I'm going with Dante's assessment..

As Dante said, Schaub can throw the ball 50-60 yards and not "underthrow" AJ as the so-called experts around here suggest. The problem is that he takes too long to get the ball off to AJ on a deep route.
I don't know how to describe it to you, TB.

The stats never showed it, but Stabler was the snake.
He had the best command of the team I've seen so far from the Oilers days up to now.

(and he was a drinker and a womanizer too, most of us know that.)