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thunderkyss
01-11-2013, 02:05 PM
A guy is arguing that Matt & Eli are a lot a like.

Being that Eli has won two Super Bowls & that says something about him, but if not for those rings, what would be the argument(s) that Eli is a better QB than Matt Schaub?

I personally believe they are a lot alike. I'd take Eli over Matt anyday, but I'm not going to tell you why just yet. I want to hear what you say.

handswarmer
01-11-2013, 02:28 PM
Not even close....

Eli>Schaub

HOU-TEX
01-11-2013, 02:32 PM
Not even close....

Eli>Schaub

Agreed

ThaShark316
01-11-2013, 02:38 PM
Main difference is Eli is unflappable.

He does inconsistent ****, too, but the key thing for Eli is when it's winning time...GIVE HIM THE GOT DAMN BALL AND HE'LL WIN IT.

With Schaub, he's been spotty at best in that department. He's won some games in the late stages, and has lost some (Eli has too). But, when it comes to the big **** (playoffs, division winning games, national games...) Eli is the man.

Schaub could really put himself a step above where he is now with a few good games in the next 4 weeks.

klockWork
01-11-2013, 02:44 PM
Schaub would be very close to Eli if he has his pocket-presence and grit. So basically Schaub is like Eli with his head cut off in the pocket.

Texan_Touchdown
01-11-2013, 02:55 PM
They're no where near alike. Eli has a arm can make any throw, very smart, great in the pocket in buying time for those off schedule passes but can force passes down field and into double triple coverage.

Matt has a weak arm, smart, can't make the off schedule passes, rarely goes to his 2nd read down field, but also rarely throws into triple coverage and throw those bone head INT's.

any day of the week and twice on sunday Eli> Matt Schuab

klockWork
01-11-2013, 03:02 PM
They're no where near alike. Eli has a arm can make any throw, very smart, great in the pocket in buying time for those off schedule passes but can force passes down field and into double triple coverage.

Matt has a weak arm, smart, can't make the off schedule passes, rarely goes to his 2nd read down field, but also rarely throws into triple coverage and throw those bone head INT's.

any day of the week and twice on sunday Eli> Matt Schuab

Schaub has an under-rated arm. His problem is mechanics. He rarely step into his throw. The reason he don't step into his throw is in his mind that's one step closer to getting hit. Only time he does this is on rollout PA when half the defense is on the other side of the field biting on a run.

gtexan02
01-11-2013, 03:06 PM
Eli gets hot and is streaky. When he's on, he's on and its hard to stop him. But let's not pretend that Eli was the reason the Giants have won 2 superbowls. Despite winning 2 superbowls against Brady, the Giants are only averaging 19 points a game in those 2 superbowls.

Schaub put up 19 against the Bengals and is lambasted. And neither of those Patriots teams had a defense that was even as good as Cinci's was.

Eli has a career 82 passer rating or something like that. He'll put up games where he throws 4 TDs and no INTs and then go 2 games without a single touchdown and 150 yards. Its easy to pick him over Schaub because he's got a reputation for being 'clutch' and we've all seen his highlights. Numbers dont tell the whole story, but Eli isn't a top 10 QB in my opinion. He's had success because of a stellar defense and the ability to go on hot streaks

This season Matt had 5 games with zero TDs and 3 games with fewer than 200 yards passing. Eli had 4 games with zero TDs and 5 games with fewer than 200 yards passing. Eli faltered down the stretch and cost his team a chance at the playoffs. Matt kept us at least competitive enough down the stretch to earn the #3 seed.

Matt is still playing. Eli is on the couch at home watching his big brother.

Double Barrel
01-11-2013, 03:16 PM
But let's not pretend that Eli was the reason the Giants have won 2 superbowls.

lol! Eli was the Super Bowl MVP of BOTH of those games.

Yeah, he wasn't the reason.. :rolleyes:

p.s. only FIVE QBs in NFL history have won two SB MVP awards. Three are already in the HoF, one is Brady, and the other is Eli.

Thorn
01-11-2013, 03:18 PM
Both Mannings > Schaub by a very wide margin

gtexan02
01-11-2013, 03:29 PM
lol! Eli was the Super Bowl MVP of BOTH of those games.

Yeah, he wasn't the reason.. :rolleyes:

p.s. only FIVE QBs in NFL history have won two SB MVP awards. Three are already in the HoF, one is Brady, and the other is Eli.

MVP awards, including Superbowl MVPs, are biased towards offensive players. QBs in particular. In the last 10 years, we've had exactly 1 defensive player win superbowl MVP. In the last 30 years, it's gone to 4 defensive players.

Who is the most valuable player in the NFL today? JJ Watt, hands down. Think he has a shot at MVP of the regular season? Doubtful.

7/10 of the last 10 superbowls have given MVP to the QB.

In 2007 the Patriots were averaging 37 points a game during the regular season. In the superbowl, the Giants gave up 14 points. You really think Eli was the reason they won that game? Sure, maybe he was the most valuable individual in that game, but he certainly wasn't the reason they won. The defense, as a whole, was the reason they were able to beat the Patriots. Thats all I was trying to say. Eli managed the game for them, and did just enough to put up 17 points.

In 2007 he was 19/35 (55%) for 2 TDs and 1 INT

handswarmer
01-11-2013, 03:30 PM
Matt is still playing. Eli is on the couch at home watching his big brother.

So is:
-Drew Brees
-Ben Rothlisberger

gtexan02
01-11-2013, 03:36 PM
MVP awards, including Superbowl MVPs, are biased towards offensive players. QBs in particular. In the last 10 years, we've had exactly 1 defensive player win superbowl MVP. In the last 30 years, it's gone to 4 defensive players.

Who is the most valuable player in the NFL today? JJ Watt, hands down. Think he has a shot at MVP of the regular season? Doubtful.

7/10 of the last 10 superbowls have given MVP to the QB.

In 2007 the Patriots were averaging 37 points a game during the regular season. In the superbowl, the Giants gave up 14 points. You really think Eli was the reason they won that game? Sure, maybe he was the most valuable individual in that game, but he certainly wasn't the reason they won. The defense, as a whole, was the reason they were able to beat the Patriots. Thats all I was trying to say. Eli managed the game for them, and did just enough to put up 17 points.

In 2007 he was 19/35 (55%) for 2 TDs and 1 INT

Building off this last post...

Eli was actually much better in the week 17 contest in which the Patriots beat the Giants. His statline:
22/32 for 251 yards (69%) for 4 TDs and 1 INT

Yet they lost that game because the Pats scored 38 points. Defense was the difference, not Eli

80tothezone
01-11-2013, 03:41 PM
A guy is arguing that Matt & Eli are a lot a like.

Being that Eli has won two Super Bowls & that says something about him, but if not for those rings, what would be the argument(s) that Eli is a better QB than Matt Schaub?

I personally believe they are a lot alike. I'd take Eli over Matt anyday, but I'm not going to tell you why just yet. I want to hear what you say.

I don't think you can say yet, schaub has 1 playoff game under his belt and it was a mediocre game. After this week we will know.

ThaShark316
01-11-2013, 03:55 PM
Schaub has an under-rated arm. His problem is mechanics. He rarely step into his throw. The reason he don't step into his throw is in his mind that's one step closer to getting hit. Only time he does this is on rollout PA when half the defense is on the other side of the field biting on a run.

Doesn't step up and tries to put FARRRRRRRRRR too much touch on the ball when he doesn't need to.

Double Barrel
01-11-2013, 03:57 PM
MVP awards, including Superbowl MVPs, are biased towards offensive players. QBs in particular. In the last 10 years, we've had exactly 1 defensive player win superbowl MVP. In the last 30 years, it's gone to 4 defensive players.


I do not disagree with the offensive tendency, but that does not diminish Eli's accomplishment of winning two SB MVP awards.

Who is the most valuable player in the NFL today? JJ Watt, hands down. Think he has a shot at MVP of the regular season? Doubtful.


'eh, debatable. I love JJ, and he's certainly DPOY, but I think many players could easily be argued as MVP. Manning (Peyton), Brady, Peterson just off the top of my head. The last time a defensive player won was LT in '86, iirc.

In 2007 the Patriots were averaging 37 points a game during the regular season. In the superbowl, the Giants gave up 14 points. You really think Eli was the reason they won that game? Sure, maybe he was the most valuable individual in that game, but he certainly wasn't the reason they won. The defense, as a whole, was the reason they were able to beat the Patriots. Thats all I was trying to say. Eli managed the game for them, and did just enough to put up 17 points.

In 2007 he was 19/35 (55%) for 2 TDs and 1 INT

Most Super Bowl champions are well rounded teams. It's a symbiotic relationship between offense, defense, special teams, and coaching.

Please tell me which defensive player was in on this play:

Eli Manning pass to Tyree (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNUkUCknT90)

Freak play. Some say the catch was "lucky". Perhaps. But that scrambling and avoiding multiple sacks to make that pass was pure will, determination, and skill. (And I do not see Schaub ever making that play happen.)

I'm not asking you to like Eli. Just don't pretend that Eli had nothing to do with those wins. Eli led game winning drives in both Super Bowls.

eriadoc
01-11-2013, 04:06 PM
Building off this last post...

Eli was actually much better in the week 17 contest in which the Patriots beat the Giants. His statline:
22/32 for 251 yards (69%) for 4 TDs and 1 INT

Yet they lost that game because the Pats scored 38 points. Defense was the difference, not Eli

Eli won SB MVP not because of stats but because he made ballsy throws and converted when it had to be done. Timeliness counts for a lot. I've always hated the timeliness argument when the QB sucks for 3 quarters and then comes back to in in the 4th, resulting in praise. That wasn't the case with Eli.

One example from Schaub this year was the throw to AJ vs. the Broncos to convert for a first down, thus icing the win. Manning was making a comeback and the team had to have a first down. Schaub nailed it. I have no idea what Schaub's stats were that game, but I remember that throw and catch. That's the stuff that sticks with you over time. Stats are just this side of meaningless in some scenarios.

76Texan
01-11-2013, 04:23 PM
Schaub and Eli are very much alike; they both look ugly, LOL.

Look, Eli won two SBs when the opponents scored 14 and 17.

If our D can limit Brady to 14, I take Matt Schaub every day.
If they manage to hold Brady to 17, Schaub ain't a bad choice either.

Eli was a number one overall pick; why would you think Schaub needs to be a better QB than him?

76Texan
01-11-2013, 04:43 PM
Schaub is undefeated when the opponents score fewer than 20 points.

gtexan02
01-11-2013, 04:55 PM
Schaub is undefeated when the opponents score fewer than 20 points.

Wow is that true? If so that's incredible

76Texan
01-11-2013, 05:09 PM
Wow is that true? If so that's incredible

I just tripled-checked.

The two games where the opponent scored 20, we scored 17.

One game was against Peyton.

Schaub threw for over 300 yards both times.

klockWork
01-11-2013, 05:15 PM
Schaub is undefeated when the opponents score fewer than 20 points.

"So you're saying there's a chance."

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/7756/theresachance.jpg

76Texan
01-11-2013, 05:32 PM
"So you're saying there's a chance."

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/7756/theresachance.jpg

Eli got the chances when his D limited the opponents to 14 and 17.

CloakNNNdagger
01-11-2013, 06:23 PM
You might want to take a look at what would be considered to be QB "clutch factor" stats submitted by PROFOOTBALLREFENCE.com......pretty interesting (also click on "View complete leaderboards for game-winning drives and comebacks" within this link):

Matt Schaub's Career 4th quarter comebacks and game-winning drives (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=SchaMa00)

This link will give supplementary explanatory info to the stats obtained above:

Quarterbacks and fourth quarter comebacks, Part I
Posted by Doug on August 6, 2009 [follow the links to Part II and Part III]

Hookem Horns
01-11-2013, 06:28 PM
Both look like dorks but the comparison stops there. C'mon.

infantrycak
01-11-2013, 06:33 PM
You might want to take a look at what would be considered to be QB "clutch factor" stats submitted by PROFOOTBALLREFENCE.com......pretty interesting (also click on "View complete leaderboards for game-winning drives and comebacks" within this link):

Matt Schaub's Career 4th quarter comebacks and game-winning drives (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=SchaMa00)

This link will give supplementary explanatory info to the stats obtained above:

Quarterbacks and fourth quarter comebacks, Part I
Posted by Doug on August 6, 2009 [follow the links to Part II and Part III]

Not speaking to Schaub specifically here. Game winning drives and 4th quarter comebacks are odd stats. Great teams often with great QBs are rarely in a position to need them while bad teams have a lot more opportunities. It's kind of like great CBs - their stats often suck because people don't throw at them as much.

CloakNNNdagger
01-11-2013, 06:38 PM
Schaub has an under-rated arm. His problem is mechanics. He rarely step into his throw. The reason he don't step into his throw is in his mind that's one step closer to getting hit. Only time he does this is on rollout PA when half the defense is on the other side of the field biting on a run.

The same reason he can't take a quick step into the pocket to avoid a rush..........his push-off back (right) foot can't take it.

To run to the right, you push off your left foot. To take it to the left, you need to push off your right foot. I'll just ask this question......when's the last time you saw Schaub run a play action to the left? You think someone like Belichick hasn't noticed?

C Madd
01-11-2013, 06:46 PM
Both Mannings > Schaub by a very wide margin

Yeah, well at least they both look way goofier than Ma...oh wait.

Double Barrel
01-11-2013, 06:52 PM
Not speaking to Schaub specifically here. Game winning drives and 4th quarter comebacks are odd stats. Great teams often with great QBs are rarely in a position to need them while bad teams have a lot more opportunities. It's kind of like great CBs - their stats often suck because people don't throw at them as much.

I'm not sure how much I agree with your premise, or at least in whole. Think of the historically great Captain Comebacks in the NFL: Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, John Elway, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning...all these guys were great QBs on great teams, and I'm pretty sure these five are high on the list of most come from behind victories in the 4th quarter and/or two minute warning.

Now, of course, you can most likely find some QBs that fit your criteria. But overall, when I think of the greatest comeback QBs, those names above are what come to my mind. Someone like Dan Marino probably comes up, as I think he holds the record for most 4th quarter comebacks, iirc. His teams were good, but never great.

Lucky
01-11-2013, 06:54 PM
Let's not start threads comparing Schaub to every QB in the NFL. Pointless.

iLoveTexans
01-11-2013, 07:05 PM
Who's the guy arguing about this? Honestly they have way different play styles imo..

PapaL
01-11-2013, 07:51 PM
One guy looks like he has Down Syndrome, the other plays like he has Down Syndrome.

Lucky
01-11-2013, 08:15 PM
Who's the guy arguing about this?
Probably Fiddler's alter ego.

infantrycak
01-11-2013, 08:21 PM
I'm not sure how much I agree with your premise, or at least in whole. Think of the historically great Captain Comebacks in the NFL: Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, John Elway, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning...all these guys were great QBs on great teams, and I'm pretty sure these five are high on the list of most come from behind victories in the 4th quarter and/or two minute warning.

Now, of course, you can most likely find some QBs that fit your criteria. But overall, when I think of the greatest comeback QBs, those names above are what come to my mind. Someone like Dan Marino probably comes up, as I think he holds the record for most 4th quarter comebacks, iirc. His teams were good, but never great.

By no means am I saying it doesn't happen. In fact, I agree some of the great QBs are famous for it. But I think what makes them famous for it is doing it at critical times, elevating their team when they are playing another great team. Staubach and the hail mary situations. I'm guess what I am saying is I would like an additional stat added for perspective - number of opportunities and % successfully done.

Big Lou
01-11-2013, 08:22 PM
Not even close....

Eli>Schaub

But Flacco is elite according to the Flacco Gazette........

76Texan
01-11-2013, 08:26 PM
Why do we have to go to the excess; Eli was drafted to be a franchise QB.

Schaub was brought in to be one of many pieces on the team.

It's crazy when people put too much expectation on a so-so guy just so they can blame him.

Big Lou
01-11-2013, 08:27 PM
Schaub is undefeated when the opponents score fewer than 20 points.

Shaub is undefeated in the post season. He's unstoppable............ J/K

Let's send Shaub some positive energy!!!

Texan_Bill
01-11-2013, 08:49 PM
lol! Eli was the Super Bowl MVP of BOTH of those games.

Yeah, he wasn't the reason.. :rolleyes:

p.s. only FIVE QBs in NFL history have won two SB MVP awards. Three are already in the HoF, one is Brady, and the other is Eli.

Meh...

Point: (those diminishing Eli's "greatness".)
"It took an incredible catch by Tyree for the Giants to continue the drive....."

Counterpoint: (those that think Eli is was "lucky"), those that underestimate Eli's "greatness" forget what he avoided to even launch that pass to Tyree!


*"greatness" = in that particular moment.

*EDIT*

With a very flacid enthusiasm, go texans!

PapaL
01-11-2013, 08:54 PM
Why do we have to go to the excess; Eli was drafted to be a franchise QB.

Schaub was brought in to be one of many pieces on the team.

It's crazy when people put too much expectation on a so-so guy just so they can blame him.

Swapping 1st and two 2nds isn't so-so guy trade material. He was acquired to be the franchise QB HWSNBN'd was not.

PapaL
01-11-2013, 08:55 PM
Meh...

Point: (those diminishing Eli's "greatness".)
"It took an incredible catch by Tyree for the Giants to continue the drive....."

Counterpoint: (those that think Eli is was "lucky"), those that underestimate Eli's "greatness" forget what he avoided to even launch that pass to Tyree!


*"greatness" = in that particular moment.

*EDIT*

With a very flacid enthusiasm, go texans!


huh huh...he said flaccid.

76Texan
01-11-2013, 10:29 PM
Swapping 1st and two 2nds isn't so-so guy trade material. He was acquired to be the franchise QB HWSNBN'd was not.

Schaub was the equivalent of a 23rd pick.
We talked about this at the time.
At least we offered a solution that actually became a reality.

PapaL
01-11-2013, 11:27 PM
Schaub was the equivalent of a 23rd pick.
We talked about this at the time.
At least we offered a solution that actually became a reality.

Late 1st Round QBs (picks 20+) in the last 10 years:
Rodgers, Weedon, Tebow, Quinn, Campbell, Losman, Grossman

:thinking: Well then...I'll be quiet now.

mussop
01-11-2013, 11:59 PM
By no means am I saying it doesn't happen. In fact, I agree some of the great QBs are famous for it. But I think what makes them famous for it is doing it at critical times, elevating their team when they are playing another great team. Staubach and the hail mary situations. I'm guess what I am saying is I would like an additional stat added for perspective - number of opportunities and % successfully done.

now youre talkin.

Textan
01-12-2013, 12:18 AM
Texans would be unstoppable with an elite QB.
Look back 20 some odd years at the SB winners and very few didn't have elite QB's.
It's the only link now missing from this Texans team.

76Texan
01-12-2013, 01:19 PM
Texans would be unstoppable with an elite QB.
Look back 20 some odd years at the SB winners and very few didn't have elite QB's.
It's the only link now missing from this Texans team.

Yeah, but a lot of elite QBs got knocked out by lesser QBs all the time in the play-offs.

Forehead lost 7 times in the Colts first play-offs games (either the Wild Card or divisional round).

infantrycak
01-12-2013, 02:03 PM
Texans would be unstoppable with an elite QB.
Look back 20 some odd years at the SB winners and very few didn't have elite QB's.
It's the only link now missing from this Texans team.

Not disagreeing so much with your overall point but I guess it depends on what you are calling elite - maybe it would better be expressed as top 10 QB. When we have had numerous discussions of elite around here I think there are 4 consensus picks - Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers.

There are a lot of guys in that 20 years who with a similar examination were considered non-elite when they won the SB. For instance in recent years Eli and Big Ben have 4 rings. I loved Aikman but he wasn't generally considered elite at the time - more really freaking efficient and accurate. Elway was certainly overall an elite QB but was well past his prime when he got his two. Know how many TD's he threw in them combined? - 1 (which by the way is the same number Big Ben threw in his 2). There is some chicken and egg here as well - folks start talking about you as elite because you win the SB.

76Texan
01-12-2013, 02:23 PM
And then there were the two famous HOF Dans.

Neither Marino, nor Foutts went to the SB.

In fact, both had losing record in the play-offs.
Both lost their first games multiple times.

Lucky
01-12-2013, 02:30 PM
And then there were the two famous HOF Dans.

Neither Marino, nor Foutts went to the SB.

In fact, both had losing record in the play-offs.
Both lost their first games multiple times.

Marino played in Super Bowl XIX.

76Texan
01-12-2013, 02:38 PM
Marino played in Super Bowl XIX.

My bad, Mr Marino who threw for two INT's. :kitten:

thunderkyss
01-12-2013, 02:48 PM
I'd take Eli Manning a hundred times over Schaub, because he's done what Schaub hasn't. Stepped up big time in big games.

Sure, he's laid some stinkers..... if the above statement were true, he'd have his team in the play-offs right now, but he don't. But it's a fact that Manning has stepped up when his team needed him more times than Matt.

The biggest reason, may be because Eli's team has been in more of those big games. Schaub has been in what? Two? I may be mistaken, but I don't think he stepped up in them.

I think we're about to find out who Matt is.

I never really cared for Eli... brother of the GOAT, never live up to those expectations. But I saw one game where he was down in the 4th qtr, he was sacked 6 times. But he still brought his team back for the win.

Then when he won two Super Bowl MVPs.... not because he's as precise or efficient as Peyton, not because he's as calm & poised under pressure as Brady, but because he's got an iron jaw & kept fighting. He took a beating but managed to win the fight.

If we win the Super Bowl, because Schaub looked like Trent Dilfer, I think it will be accurately reflected across the nation, not so much in Houston. If he wins the Super Bowl looking like Eli Manning (he's not going to look like Brady), same thing.

Texan_Touchdown
01-12-2013, 02:52 PM
Schaub has an under-rated arm. His problem is mechanics. He rarely step into his throw. The reason he don't step into his throw is in his mind that's one step closer to getting hit. Only time he does this is on rollout PA when half the defense is on the other side of the field biting on a run.


I could have told you that buddy. but I think you agree with me with the fact that, in the pocket he just flat out can't get the ball down 40 yards..

Texan_Touchdown
01-12-2013, 02:59 PM
Marino was great player but he didn't have that X factor that Montana had in making players around him great. Brady has it, Peyton has it.. Schuab does not. But lets hope he does his part and plays a good game, 65-75%, 2:1, 1:0 ratio, and a lot of TOP. that's who he is. that's our QB next year guys

infantrycak
01-12-2013, 03:08 PM
I could have told you that buddy. but I think you agree with me with the fact that, in the pocket he just flat out can't get the ball down 40 yards..

That just flat not true. Schaub hit AJ with a ball that went 53 yds in the air earlier this year. His arm strength is not great but this is over stated.