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View Full Version : LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak can’t rely on ‘the system’ he has to f


Tango
12-31-2012, 04:58 PM
LZ's post on the Texans offense. I think it's pretty insightful. Looking forward to his upcoming breakdowns.

http://blog.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2012/12/the-offense-is-very-much-broken-and-kubiak-cant-rely-on-the-system-he-has-to-fix-it/

The running game and the offensive line issues can’t be fixed right now. Kubiak and his crew can run more toss plays or they can run more of their gap plays, but the outside zone game, the Texans’ bread-and-butter, just isn’t going to get it done this year. This offensive line is nowhere near as effective as last year’s group was and a talent infusion is needed at two and maybe three spots. That can’t be fixed in-season, but it can be managed. Maximizing the team’s strengths and minimizing their weaknesses is on Gary Kubiak’s shoulders now and he has to rise to the occasion and find a way to win a hand with 9-10 suited.

Pantherstang84
12-31-2012, 05:01 PM
Merge ahead

Marcus
12-31-2012, 05:20 PM
That implies that the offensive line is reason why Schaub is playing as bad as he is, and is the reason why Foster is playing as bad as he is.

I'll buy that. It all starts up front. I know that's a boring cliche to the fans, but it is what it is.

badboy
12-31-2012, 05:23 PM
Schaub just not looking like same QB as early season. He looked sharp and on target and I often exclaimed during a game "daang, Matt is zone in." Now he is over, under or just out of reach of his target. It happened in the N.E. game and he just has not been same player. I do not mind him throwing ball away but he just does not seem to be aware of his surroundings during a game; shell shocked or concussed if I did not know better.

Dishman
12-31-2012, 05:23 PM
That implies that the offensive line is reason why Schaub is playing as bad as he is, and is the reason why Foster is playing as bad as he is.

I'll buy that. It all starts up front. I know that's a boring cliche to the fans, but it is what it is.

If you read the stuff prior to that part about the O-line Schaub doesn't come out unscathed.

Edit: but, yeah you're right about it starting up front for both our lines.

Playoffs
12-31-2012, 05:39 PM
LZ is on track.

Schaub is playing it safe.

O-Line is lacking talent at two, probably three positions.

And Gary needs to look at different ways to playcall within those limits.

Bulls on Parade
12-31-2012, 05:52 PM
But we have three pro bowlers on that offensive line. Duane Brown (LT), Wade Smith (LG) and Chris Myers (C). So basically LZ is saying we made a huge mistake letting Mike Brisiel and Eric Winston go last off-season. Well yeah, I sort of knew that. Everybody knew that. We've been working with a somewhat mediocre right side all season long.

It just bothers me it was all about the salary cap and they went to Oakland and Kansas City for more money - a place they will never win. Should have taken a pay cut or restructured to play for a winner and been a part of something special.

thunderkyss
12-31-2012, 05:53 PM
Schaub just not looking like same QB as early season. He looked sharp and on target and I often exclaimed during a game "daang, Matt is zone in." Now he is over, under or just out of reach of his target.

It doesn't make sense to me. We've got the same 5 guys in front him that we started the season with, save Ben Jones. Personally I think Ben Jones is playing better than Caldwell in both the run & passing game. Yes he had issues with Wilfork, but other than that, I think he's held his own.

I don't understand why Matt can play like that, or that Arian can play like that behind Gump, & not Jones. I think Jones is an upgrade.

Bulls on Parade
12-31-2012, 05:56 PM
It doesn't make sense to me. We've got the same 5 guys in front him that we started the season with, save Ben Jones. Personally I think Ben Jones is playing better than Caldwell in both the run & passing game. Yes he had issues with Wilfork, but other than that, I think he's held his own.

I don't understand why Matt can play like that, or that Arian can play like that behind Gump, & not Jones. I think Jones is an upgrade.
I've seen quarterbacks do more with less talent on the offensive line. Like I said, we've got three pro bowlers up front, two of which should be All Pros. It's not the offensive line's fault like people are making it out to be. They are talented. I don't even want to blame it all on that right side either. Schaub is just too damn slow in the pocket. He's got to move like he used to.

Brisco_County
12-31-2012, 06:01 PM
In the comments section, Zierlein identifies Schaub as one of the root problems. The other problem is the line. Though both problems have separate origins, the line is complicating the problems with Schaub. Maybe rotating rookies into the right side has diminished pass protection and prevented synchronicity for zone blocking. Whatever's going on, Schaub is not the QB he was even a month ago. One TD in the past four "must win" games is a meltdown.

I don't know yet what Zierlein's logic is for diagnosing the problem at QB, but mine is based on annual trends. Every year, I go back and forth from believing that Schaub has successfully broken through his ceiling (he made an undeniable case early in the season), to concluding that he is on the downward slope of his peak.

I find myself experiencing the same emotions with Schaub every year, making the same observations, then coming to the same conclusions. This is what I posted last season, saying the exact same thing, and referencing the exact same thing from the previous year.

As late as last season, I was still defending Schaub as being on his way to elite status. And as recently as the New Orleans game two weeks ago, I suddenly saw evidence that aligned everything I know about him into a conclusion that is very uncomfortable and difficult to acknowledge.

Basically, Schaub is damaged goods and has reached his ceiling. His stats are better than ever, but he crumbles when the game is on the line. I saw a glimpse of this last season when we played the Ravens on MNF. The pick-six in OT is not a mistake that championship caliber quarterbacks make. He will lead the team to the border of the promised land, then seal their defeat.

The moment my mind changed was when Schaub took a dive in the 4th quarter against the Saints when he had plenty of space to escape. Normally, I think taking the dive is a smart play, but that instance was another sample of an increasing pattern of freaking out while under pressure.

When the pocket collapses, a championship quarterback scrambles, improvises, and plays the hand he's dealt-- think Brees, Rodgers, and Manning. Schaub? He won't scramble. He's been throwing at feet, taking unnecessary dives, and forcing it to covered players for an interception.

It's sad to say, but the frequency of this is increasing. Personally, I can't say I would be very cool-headed when a 270 lbs athlete is about to transfer a 2000 lbs shockwave of kinetic energy through my body, but we need Schaub to be that guy-- and he is not anymore.

Link (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1797914&postcount=65).

In the first half of this season, Schaub played the best I've ever seen him play. But it's part of a trend now, and it's been happening every year.

ArlingtonTexan
12-31-2012, 06:03 PM
But we have three pro bowlers on that offensive line. Duane Brown (LT), Wade Smith (LG) and Chris Myers (C). So basically LZ is saying we made a huge mistake letting Mike Brisiel and Eric Winston go last off-season. Well yeah, I sort of knew that. Everybody knew that. We've been working with a somewhat mediocre right side all season long.

It just bothers me it was all about the salary cap and they went to Oakland and Kansas City for more money - a place they will never win. Should have taken a pay cut or restructured to play for a winner and been a part of something special.

I am never going to tell or suggest that a grown man take less money to do anything much less a job that puts his body at risk like the NFL. It was the job of the texans to either have the funds to keep the players or a better plan of replacement than we saw this year.

Mr teX
12-31-2012, 06:07 PM
I've seen quarterbacks do more with less talent on the offensive line. Like I said, we've got three pro bowlers up front, two of which should be All Pros. It's not the offensive line's fault like people are making it out to be. They are talented. I don't even want to blame it all on that right side either. Schaub is just too damn slow in the pocket. He's got to move like he used to.

LZ has lots of insight via his father about line play...so the fact that he's saying we need a "talent infusion" at 2 maybe 3 spots tells me all what i already know...

Schaub could certainly stand to play better, but the whole offense run game and pass game, has taken a nose dive and that has more to do with o-line play than schaub's play.

Playoffs
12-31-2012, 06:07 PM
But we have three pro bowlers on that offensive line. Duane Brown (LT), Wade Smith (LG) and Chris Myers (C).

Wade Smith in the Pro Bowl is a bit of a head scratcher, personally. Brown let Freeney blow right by him. And Myers appeared to have an average game at best. Teams have been blowing up our run blocking of late in the middle.

TheMatrix31
12-31-2012, 06:12 PM
Yeah. Wade Smith may technically be a pro bowler, but he's definitely NOT a pro bowler.

He's right. It's OL. And OL affects everything we do. And if the offense isn't doing well, the defense carries the burden, and the defense can't carry the burden because Cushing is out.

GuerillaBlack
12-31-2012, 06:13 PM
The line isn't horrible though. I'd place more of the blame on Schaub than the OL. Schaub's throws are terrible and he can't do crap on the run. He must be set, feet planted and shoulders square, but even then he can't hit an open James Casey or Jean in stride because he doesn't have the arm. I've seen many QBs hit receivers with similar types of coverage (throwing them open) and them catching it in stride and taking it for a big gain. Only time Schaub did this was with an assist from the Denver thin air earlier this season.

ATXtexanfan
12-31-2012, 06:19 PM
Can't rely on the system and a limited qb. Schaubs better days behind him. Need three new starters on oline with no cap space? Man did the Texans peak last year? Do we fight off indi next year? Just rambling sorry

EllisUnit
12-31-2012, 06:23 PM
Nce read but predictable to me is a draw or screen on 3rd and long every time, It is predictable if we all as fans know its coming, so obviously that D.C making a few million coaching for the other team must know its coming to.

Other than that i agree with most of it.

texanhead08
12-31-2012, 06:24 PM
Can't rely on the system and a limited qb. Schaubs better days behind him. Need three new starters on oline with no cap space? Man did the Texans peak last year? Do we fight off indi next year? Just rambling sorry


A lot of teams have a 4yr window to win a championship. Did we screw the pooch in 2009 and 2010 and now our best days are behind us ? I hope not but we need to do some serious retooling of this offensive line or its going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

GuerillaBlack
12-31-2012, 06:42 PM
A lot of teams have a 4yr window to win a championship. Did we screw the pooch in 2009 and 2010 and now our best days are behind us ? I hope not but we need to do some serious retooling of this offensive line or its going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

It appears that way, except on defense where they are a bit younger. The offense's best days are way behind, unless we get a new playmaker QB and some OL help. Our receiving core isn't that bad tbh. Manning would kill with it.

EllisUnit
12-31-2012, 06:46 PM
All we need is a new QB another possible future #1 WR to play behind AJ, and this team can still over come dumb ass kubiak. We arent far away from being elite.

Mr teX
12-31-2012, 06:50 PM
It appears that way, except on defense where they are a bit younger. The offense's best days are way behind, unless we get a new playmaker QB and some OL help. Our receiving core isn't that bad tbh. Manning would kill with it.

Manning is an all time great...anyone less than him is likely having the same issues getting the ball to anyone other than AJ and OD...which is pretty much what schaub has been doing....especially if they have protection issues.

devo-x
12-31-2012, 07:02 PM
We could certainly use some scoring help from the defense this weekend considering the recent offense struggles

Tailgate
12-31-2012, 07:08 PM
This organization is going to have to hit it BIG in the upcoming draft in the OL, and LB positions for us to get back on track. DL is quickly becoming a major need as well with the aging Smith as our other anchor and just getting buy at the NT position for a while now.

Back on point. We all know what Schaub can do when the offense is clicking. Unless we can find a mobile gun slinger who can figure out this system in one offseason.... we MUST get the OL fixed this offseason. It wont be easy. Imo.... Duane Brown is the only true All Pro/Pro Bowler of the group.

Hervoyel
12-31-2012, 07:12 PM
32 teams in this league and most of them have less than perfect OL play. Is there something wrong with the Texans line? Of course. Newton and "Rookie-of-the-Week" have been a mess and Wade Smith is a fraud this year but Myers and Brown deserve every accolade they get by and large. Even the fraud is good enough most of the time.

The OL has problems but it's not like every QB needs the Great Wall of China in front of him to be effective. There are ways a QB can help an offensive line that's struggling. He can move (Schaub can't) and he can burn the pass rush when they blitz (Schaub isn't making anyone pay this year for blitzing).

None of that is happening for us. Roethlisberger could play well behind our line. Hell he'd probably make them look brilliant. Schaub can't do it. We need to either maintain a starting OL that's damn near perfect or find a guy who can be effective behind an average line.

DX-TEX
12-31-2012, 07:16 PM
Its all on Kubiak and his son Matt. Analyze it all you want that is the root of the problem.

CloakNNNdagger
12-31-2012, 07:18 PM
Before you lay it on too heavily on the OL and the play calling, keep in mind they have, as should be the case, focused on furthering the STRENGTHS of Arian.......while focusing on minimizing the WEAKNESSES of Schaub. The latter unduly places a major challenge/strain on the OL and play caller that would otherwise not be there.

Tailgate
12-31-2012, 07:30 PM
Interesting comment:

Great article Lance.
I am a semi-pro poker player, and always see the strategy and ” out thinking ” that goes on. To me both Kube and Schaub seem.a bit tilted. Their game isn’t ” on ” , they are lacking overall aggression.

Mentally your aggression is a weapon you use to dominate and impose your will. First you must have a idea of what your will is. This could be a overall tight game, meaning you have a tighter range of hand selection. Or a lose style that opens up your range and creates more doubt, but courage in your opponent. The common element, in both styles, will be the use of aggression.

You WILL BE AGGRESSIVE. No winning player will choose to play a overall passive game in the hands they do play. This is important because MENTALLY the other guy is accepting a passive or les dominate path.

Will they defend a re-raise? If not, that is my move on them after creating a solid tight image. Your mindset is attack and aggression is your only weapon. Some players will completely submit. They will fold everyone to your aggression.and tighten.up their hand selection to avoid clashing with your aggression and to optimize their chances of coming put on top, with a stronger range of playable hands.

If Kubiac isn’t calling the plays he needs to start. The game plan must be aggressive. It isn’t enough that the plays should work. They must be designed to make your opponent submissive. You want to force them into playing it safe.

Mout times i agree with the third and long delay handoff etc. These are good selections based off the defensive philosophy and personell on the field at that given moment. After watching the Texans for 6 years straight it just looks like our play callers are losing a bit of their aggression. Our Kyle Shannohan play calling was insanely good. It just reaked of overall aggression. It isn’t enough that it make sense. It must be agressive.

Say Watt
12-31-2012, 08:38 PM
Interesting comment:

That was really good and perfectly echoes my thoughts. Since the Detroit game, I have felt we needed to start running more no huddle, make quicker passes, and better utilize the strengths of our team. Our offense line is struggling, so why in the hell are we running plays that take an eternity to setup?!? We are asking for Schaub to get killed.

We need to switch things up. Everyone knows we want to run the ball and control the clock. We have gotten far too predictable. Once our defense started regressing, the offense had to pick it up. They never have and here we are playing our worst football of the season.

Corrosion
01-01-2013, 12:13 AM
LZ is on track.

Schaub is playing it safe.

O-Line is lacking talent at two, probably three positions.

And Gary needs to look at different ways to playcall within those limits.

There have been plays to be made .... Schaub simply hasnt made them.

powda
01-01-2013, 12:21 AM
For all the people that have whined for years about getting another explosive faster wide receiver (myself included), schaub doesnt have the arm to capitalize on it. Defenses have figured out we are exclusively a horizontal threat. I dont really care about any deep play stats someone presents to argue that. I've watched and rewatched everygame this franchise has played since day 1. Proof is in the games, not the stat line.

Corrosion
01-01-2013, 12:30 AM
For all the people that have whined for years about getting another explosive faster wide receivers (myself included), schaub doesnt have the arm to capitalize on it. Defenses have figured out we are exclusively a horizontal threat. I dont really care about any deep play stats someone presents to argue that. I've watched and rewatched everygame this franchise has played since day 1. Proof is in the games, not the stat line.

The proof is in the pudding .... we almost never see throws over the deep middle of the field ....You almost never see sideline patterns that take advantage of the back shoulder throw .... and thats because Schaub simply doesnt have the zip to make those throws.

Schaub's a solid game manager and ball handler .... but is lacking in so many other area's of QB play.

We may as well get use to it because he's signed for two more seasons. We're stuck with the noodle arm statue game manager.

beerlover
01-01-2013, 12:59 AM
I probably shouldn't post after consuming large amounts of :drunk: but hey, I am Beerlover right. So here it is: Schaub is a cerebral QB with bad feet. There I said it, high character & intelligence can only carry you so far, time to make more athletic moves. Instead, Matt is the proverbial immovable object on the field in constant state of flux. It's really more on Kubiak play calling to leave a back into block or TE in pass pro. It's virtually always an empty set or the back clears the hole leaving Schaub solo to avoid a delayed blitz unhindered. This is not a workable resolution, neither is dunk & dink to a TE or WR who cannot create after the catch or make a catch. as the box collapses.

Kubiak needs to adjust/change his play calling to be more assertive yet hold max protection in the pocket to do a better job protecting Matt Schaub. This will improve timing with receivers, hit them in optimum windows & improve yards after the catch. In other words we have to go back to the drawing board, before we thought Texans were the big dogs & pass the ball efficiently & run the ball late in games to put them away.

Norg
01-01-2013, 01:14 AM
I refuse to beleive its the O-line cause of who we lost WInston and brisle

Mike was good but played hurtand Winston was just down right bad

its schaub whenever a free blitz comes lose has got to get rid of the ball or throw it away

and IMO these last two week i know matt is no Mobility master but last week he was moving around better then he has i liked seein that hopefully he can improve in that

Norg
01-01-2013, 01:19 AM
u know another problem that no one talks about Andre and Kevins Break away speed there not has fast has they used to be and it causes DB to stick to them


DOnt put this all on schaub IMO at this point schaub just has to sit in the passenger seat not even drive

If we are going to win the other vets are going to have to step up and take this team on its back ANdre.Kevin.OD.Myers.SMith,Brown

i know yall dont trust schaub but let me ask yall a question do yall trust


Andre johnson Chris myers and Brown ..??????

leebigeztx
01-01-2013, 01:37 AM
Beerlover, that's pretty much my take. When you look at texans offense, who can really beat you? Andre Johnson and to a degree foster,that's it. This year, they can't just run the ball down teams throat. So if teams stop arian and roll to andre, the offense is done. Teams aren't even playing 8 in the box vs the run game, they're just key run blitzing. So now its on schaub shoulders minus playaction opening lanes and we've seen the struggle. He won't really throw guy open or extend plays. Teams are daring him to throw in the muddled middle from the pocket minus playaction and he really can't do it. This isn't anything new. Go watch raiders and ravens games last year. In fact, go watch games vs jets when revis took andre out of games. Hell, watch the 1st game of the season vs miami. I dunno why people are so surprised,but here is what I think kubes should do.

Get back to wco principles. What's does that mean? Skinny post pass plays on early downs. Using the pass to setup the run. More 3 step drops to get tha ball out of matts hands. The no huddle out of base and use casey everywhere. What gary must do is use tempo to create matchups.

otisbean
01-01-2013, 05:56 AM
Beerlover, that's pretty much my take. When you look at texans offense, who can really beat you? Andre Johnson and to a degree foster,that's it. This year, they can't just run the ball down teams throat. So if teams stop arian and roll to andre, the offense is done. Teams aren't even playing 8 in the box vs the run game, they're just key run blitzing. So now its on schaub shoulders minus playaction opening lanes and we've seen the struggle. He won't really throw guy open or extend plays. Teams are daring him to throw in the muddled middle from the pocket minus playaction and he really can't do it. This isn't anything new. Go watch raiders and ravens games last year. In fact, go watch games vs jets when revis took andre out of games. Hell, watch the 1st game of the season vs miami. I dunno why people are so surprised,but here is what I think kubes should do.

Get back to wco principles. What's does that mean? Skinny post pass plays on early downs. Using the pass to setup the run. More 3 step drops to get tha ball out of matts hands. The no huddle out of base and use casey everywhere. What gary must do is use tempo to create matchups.

Great points, my thoughts exactly.

hradhak
01-01-2013, 06:56 AM
To me this has all been about (a lack of) execution. We had opportunities in every game that we just completely blew.

What bothers me the most about the Indy loss is that Indy gave up 500+ yards rushing in the last 2 weeks. Instead of running, we come out throwing a ton, and guess what? It fails in the second half because we win when we are balanced. Why didn't we keep running it? Why is Ben Tate getting 1 carry? Foster was averaging 6+ ypc and he only gets 16 carries.

This comes down to gameplan. You have a gameplan that worked from other teams but instead you abandon it and just keep throwing the ball.

HJam72
01-01-2013, 07:55 AM
To me this has all been about (a lack of) execution. We had opportunities in every game that we just completely blew.

What bothers me the most about the Indy loss is that Indy gave up 500+ yards rushing in the last 2 weeks. Instead of running, we come out throwing a ton, and guess what? It fails in the second half because we win when we are balanced. Why didn't we keep running it? Why is Ben Tate getting 1 carry? Foster was averaging 6+ ypc and he only gets 16 carries.

This comes down to gameplan. You have a gameplan that worked from other teams but instead you abandon it and just keep throwing the ball.

Holy crap, you're right! I had no idea he was averaging that high.

Speedy
01-01-2013, 09:29 AM
Holy crap, you're right! I had no idea he was averaging that high.

Running to the right side, the side with a revolving door of linemen coming in and out, the Texans averaged 3.0 yards per carry (8-24) Sunday. On the "Pro-Bowl" left side, the Texans ran the ball 4 times the entire game. 4 carries, 59 yards (14.75 per).

IDEXAN
01-01-2013, 10:24 AM
Say what you want to about Briesel and Winston as pass-protectors, but both of those guys were very good run-blockers and without the rushing game the whole Texans' offense is just not nearly as effective as it was when they were in the lineup. And furthermore the Texas base-offense was virtually a 2 TE-set
and the OD/Dreesen combo was more effective than the OD/Grahmn combo.
Our offensive unit just lost too many important players in the past offseason to be as effective this year as we were in 2011.

Mr teX
01-01-2013, 11:02 AM
yeah, briesel and winston could get out in the open on those stretch plays and put guys down in the open field...Newton can't even get out to the sideline and block the db on a WR screen.

we're clearly not what we were up front...

Playoffs
01-01-2013, 11:36 AM
In 2011 Eric Winston was rated 10/76 overall against all Tackles and 6th against Right Tackles. Pass Block 10th, Run Bock 3rd.
In 2010 Eric Winston was rated 12/78 overall against all Tackles and 5th against Right Tackles. Pass Block 10th, Run Block 19th.

In 2011 Mike Brisiel was rated 32/78 overall against all Guards. Pass Block 32nd, Run Bock 14th.
In 2010 Mike Brisiel was rated 15/82 overall against all Guards. Pass Block 20th, Run Bock 12th.

Both had tougher years -- expected/bad teams -- in 2012. Winston was 25/80 Tackles and Brisiel was 74/82 Guards.

*ratings from ProFootballFocus (http://www.profootballfocus.com/), minumum 25% of team snaps.

GP
01-01-2013, 12:27 PM
Say what you want to about Briesel and Winston as pass-protectors, but both of those guys were very good run-blockers and without the rushing game the whole Texans' offense is just not nearly as effective as it was when they were in the lineup. And furthermore the Texas base-offense was virtually a 2 TE-set
and the OD/Dreesen combo was more effective than the OD/Grahmn combo.
Our offensive unit just lost too many important players in the past offseason to be as effective this year as we were in 2011.

I think, in hindsight, it was a mistake to let Winston go. Brisiel was a FA and got bigger $$$ in Oakland.

I don't know if we could have had Eric restructure to save us money. I'm not familiar with that aspect of the situation.

Brisiel was a goner because he got a nice payday elsewhere.

But if I were to pretend that both those guys were starting on our OL, I think we're a different and BETTER team right now. Just for the reason you stated: The run game would be better.

Tailgate
01-01-2013, 12:32 PM
Omg... Reading Kubiaks after practice quotes are driving me crazy!!! Its like he has ZERO friggin clue. If I hear the words inconsistent, or ...have to be more consistent again I am going to puke.

GP
01-01-2013, 12:35 PM
Omg... Reading Kubiaks after practice quotes are driving me crazy!!! Its like he has ZERO friggin clue. If I hear the words inconsistent, or ...have to be more consistent again I am going to puke.

Why won't any of the "reporters" sack up and say "Would do you MEAN by 'inconsistent'?"

Rick and Gary have the reporters so scared, we'll never get anything but status quo. Zero accountability.

Lucky
01-01-2013, 12:51 PM
yeah, briesel and winston could get out in the open on those stretch plays and put guys down in the open field...Newton can't even get out to the sideline and block the db on a WR screen.

I remember that play and thought to myself, " Doesn't Kubiak realize Newton can't make that play?". Was that successful in the practice?

thunderkyss
01-01-2013, 01:15 PM
There have been plays to be made .... Schaub simply hasnt made them.

I think so.

I think to "change the system" now would be the wrong thing to do. We need to get better at what we've been doing for the last 17 weeks. Though it's "not working" you can watch the game tape & see it's 1 dropped pass, 1 blown block, or 1 bad read away from working.

If you look at our last game against the Colts, it's not that the play book was dull & uninspired... it was that we kept shooting ourselves in the foot. Penalty after penalty. We'd take one step forward, two steps back.

If we get better doing what we do, we'll beat anybody.

DX-TEX
01-01-2013, 02:12 PM
I think so.

I think to "change the system" now would be the wrong thing to do. We need to get better at what we've been doing for the last 17 weeks. Though it's "not working" you can watch the game tape & see it's 1 dropped pass, 1 blown block, or 1 bad read away from working.

If you look at our last game against the Colts, it's not that the play book was dull & uninspired... it was that we kept shooting ourselves in the foot. Penalty after penalty. We'd take one step forward, two steps back.

If we get better doing what we do, we'll beat anybody.

What we are doing isnt working and you have to adapt. But Kubiak is just too damn stubborn or stupid.

Playoffs
01-01-2013, 02:26 PM
I think, in hindsight, it was a mistake to let Winston go. Brisiel was a FA and got bigger $$$ in Oakland.

I don't know if we could have had Eric restructure to save us money. I'm not familiar with that aspect of the situation.

Yeah, it seems to me we were like hundreds of thousands below the cap going into the season? It was a shame we lost him and Dreessen. I felt like both were key.

steelbtexan
01-01-2013, 02:31 PM
There have been plays to be made .... Schaub simply hasnt made them.

Yep and Schaub is Garys handpicked guy.

klockWork
01-01-2013, 03:52 PM
Schaub int on that Casey play was a timing throw that was thrown a second too late. People is blaming Kubiak too much for his play calling when most pass execution on passing plays requires perfect timing. Schaub should've known his window have past on that route and needs to look elsewhere because a faster db was trailing Casey.

Schaub have been blasted by you guys for having a weak arm when that is totally false. Most of his under thrown passes that have occurred during his career have resulted from tardiness of his throw. The other factor is Schaub footwork in the pocket is atrocious. Other than rollout pa you never see Schaub step into a throw from a straight drop back pocket.

You watch a Manning or Brady highlights throwing the ball and compare that to Schaub. The disparity is disturbing.

I posted a bounty somewhere in this forum challenging anyone to post a video of Schaub stepping into a throw. The reward was 100 dollar thru PayPal. The closest someone got was a posted video of the Redskins game from two years ago when Schaub scramble up the pocket and threw a desperation pass on fourth down to AJ to win the game.

You have to go back over two years to find out the last time Schaub making a proper fundamental throw in the pocket. I'm utterly dumbfounded that this guy has had this many 4000 yard seasons.

infantrycak
01-01-2013, 04:16 PM
Schaub have been blasted by you guys for having a weak arm when that is totally false. Most of his under thrown passes that have occurred during his career have resulted from tardiness of his throw.

Timing is certainly an issue at times.

The other factor is Schaub footwork in the pocket is atrocious. Other than rollout pa you never see Schaub step into a throw from a straight drop back pocket.

I posted a bounty somewhere in this forum challenging anyone to post a video of Schaub stepping into a throw. The reward was 100 dollar thru PayPal. The closest someone got was a posted video of the Redskins game from two years ago when Schaub scramble up the pocket and threw a desperation pass on fourth down to AJ to win the game.

You have to go back over two years to find out the last time Schaub making a proper fundamental throw in the pocket. I'm utterly dumbfounded that this guy has had this many 4000 yard seasons.

As I understood your bounty it was for scrambling inside the pocket and then making the throw. It wasn't having to go back two years to find it but that play was easy to remember.

You're exaggerating on never steps into his throws while in the pocket - there are several examples in this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSzkqchFbhM)

And I wouldn't want your bounty even if you did admit there are examples.

Maybe if you are dumbfounded you should reconsider some of your observations. Schaub has been at a 250+ ypg pace every year except for his 1st here.

For the record, I am all for upgrading Schaub if the opportunity presents itself. I am not in desperation mode anything is better.

Pantherstang84
01-01-2013, 04:41 PM
Timing is certainly an issue at times.



As I understood your bounty it was for scrambling inside the pocket and then making the throw. It wasn't having to go back two years to find it but that play was easy to remember.

You're exaggerating on never steps into his throws while in the pocket - there are several examples in this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSzkqchFbhM)

And I wouldn't want your bounty even if you did admit there are examples.

Maybe if you are dumbfounded you should reconsider some of your observations. Schaub has been at a 250+ ypg pace every year except for his 1st here.

For the record, I am all for upgrading Schaub if the opportunity presents itself. I am not in desperation mode anything is better.

So your video link shows Schaub doing all the things he hasn't been doing lately. Hitting receivers in stride, throwing into double and triple coverage, moving in and stepping out of the,pocket to make plays. Which begs these questions.

Is the curtain starting to close on Matt Schaub's career? Have the injuries taken their toll? Is he still suffering ill effects from the Fat Albert injury?

One thing is apparent. The 2011 highlight video Matt Schaub looks far better than the 2012 Matt Schaub.

Uncle Rico
01-01-2013, 05:00 PM
LZ isnt really going out on a limb with his 'analysis' is he?

anybody can see that (as my son puts it) "the fat guys on the right are no good", but Arian has also been misused by Kubiak. The flare pass is almost non-existent after a year when it was a lethal weapon for this offense. forcefeeding inside handoffs for the sake of some inivisible balance is a sign of a stubborn coach. Kubiak must adapt and improvise to what the strengths of this team currently are. Tunnel vision by Schaub on Dre is not going to get it done.

Its really a complete team implosion at this point, but i've seen this offense perform substantially better against greater competition and i just dont understand what the matter is, something internally? are the texans that predictable? didnt belichick say that wade's defense wasnt anything special, and our 'special' teams are anything but. saving grace is really this team cant play any worse, or can they?

Runner
01-01-2013, 09:25 PM
Can't rely on the system and a limited qb. Schaubs better days behind him. Need three new starters on oline with no cap space? Man did the Texans peak last year? Do we fight off indi next year? Just rambling sorry

I thought when all those salary cap forced moves were made the Texans got worse. So yes, I think they peaked last year. Their record went up a bit, but with a weaker schedule and healthier team. It will be tough for the Texans to win the division next year.

Mr teX
01-01-2013, 10:15 PM
LZ isnt really going out on a limb with his 'analysis' is he?

anybody can see that (as my son puts it) "the fat guys on the right are no good", but Arian has also been misused by Kubiak. The flare pass is almost non-existent after a year when it was a lethal weapon for this offense. forcefeeding inside handoffs for the sake of some inivisible balance is a sign of a stubborn coach. Kubiak must adapt and improvise to what the strengths of this team currently are. Tunnel vision by Schaub on Dre is not going to get it done.

Its really a complete team implosion at this point, but i've seen this offense perform substantially better against greater competition and i just dont understand what the matter is, something internally? are the texans that predictable? didnt belichick say that wade's defense wasnt anything special, and our 'special' teams are anything but. saving grace is really this team cant play any worse, or can they?

I just finished rewatching the colts game...the gameplan really is predictable and conservative as hell.

2nd/3rd and short we're running it 90% of the time

2nd/3rd and long we're passing 90% of the time

And AJ's not being force fed the ball....At least 1/2 the time its just only him and another WR out in a route...that's it....that makes for easy defending.

The other 1/2 of the time when they send 3 or more out they're 1 read quick hitters b/c schaubs only taking 3 step drops.

They almost never challenge deeper than 15 yards unless its off play-action or when they have to......which is usually when the score's getting a little out of hand and they're running out of time...by then the defense knows this.


Kubiak has got to open the playbook and become more aggressive

Grungo_Taco
01-01-2013, 10:16 PM
I just finished rewatching the colts game...the gameplan really is predictable and conservative as hell.

2nd/3rd and short we're running it 90% of the time

2nd/3rd and long we're passing 90% of the time

And AJ's not being force fed the ball....At least 1/2 the time its just only him and another WR out in a route...that's it....that makes for easy defending.

The other 1/2 of the time when they send 3 or more out they're 1 read quick hitters b/c schaubs only taking 3 step drops.

They almost never challenge deeper than 15 yards unless its off play-action or when they have to......which is usually when the score's getting a little out of hand and they're running out of time...by then the defense knows this.


Kubiak has got to open the playbook and become more aggressive

Kubiak makes Ronald Reagen look Liberal. Conservatism is in Kube's bones.

DocBar
01-01-2013, 11:12 PM
It pretty much falls on Kubes to make the offense work. Cinci has one helluva pass rush and a very good D.

It wouldn't hurt for Phillips' D to come up with a few turnovers and quit making OK, or bad, QB's look like superstars.

dream_team
01-01-2013, 11:33 PM
I just finished rewatching the colts game...the gameplan really is predictable and conservative as hell.

2nd/3rd and short we're running it 90% of the time

2nd/3rd and long we're passing 90% of the time

You have to compare this to the rest of the NFL. I would say most teams are doing that.

And AJ's not being force fed the ball....At least 1/2 the time its just only him and another WR out in a route...that's it....that makes for easy defending.

Are you sure about that? That would mean we're keeping three extra guys back to help protect. I heard of max protect, but that's a bit much.


The other 1/2 of the time when they send 3 or more out they're 1 read quick hitters b/c schaubs only taking 3 step drops.

They almost never challenge deeper than 15 yards unless its off play-action or when they have to......which is usually when the score's getting a little out of hand and they're running out of time...by then the defense knows this.


You just pretty much explained a West Coast Offense.

thunderkyss
01-02-2013, 07:29 AM
In 2011 Eric Winston was rated 10/76 overall against all Tackles and 6th against Right Tackles. Pass Block 10th, Run Bock 3rd.
In 2010 Eric Winston was rated 12/78 overall against all Tackles and 5th against Right Tackles. Pass Block 10th, Run Block 19th.

In 2011 Mike Brisiel was rated 32/78 overall against all Guards. Pass Block 32nd, Run Bock 14th.
In 2010 Mike Brisiel was rated 15/82 overall against all Guards. Pass Block 20th, Run Bock 12th.

Both had tougher years -- expected/bad teams -- in 2012. Winston was 25/80 Tackles and Brisiel was 74/82 Guards.

*ratings from ProFootballFocus (http://www.profootballfocus.com/), minumum 25% of team snaps.

How did Schaub rate amongst QBs during that time?

& keep in mind, I'm not saying that they weren't good, in fact, I said they had their strong points. It's only a matter of time, I think, before Newton & Jones are equally as good.

thunderkyss
01-02-2013, 07:32 AM
What we are doing isnt working and you have to adapt. But Kubiak is just too damn stubborn or stupid.

eh.... again, there was a lot of good stuff happening Sunday. Andre, Matt, Arian, Kj, Jj.... all had pretty good days. We just need to find a way to make the score board reflect that.

thunderkyss
01-02-2013, 07:38 AM
So your video link shows Schaub doing all the things he hasn't been doing lately. Hitting receivers in stride, throwing into double and triple coverage, moving in and stepping out of the,pocket to make plays. Which begs these questions.

Is the curtain starting to close on Matt Schaub's career? Have the injuries taken their toll? Is he still suffering ill effects from the Fat Albert injury?

One thing is apparent. The 2011 highlight video Matt Schaub looks far better than the 2012 Matt Schaub.

I don't know why Schaub is in such a slump. But I think his "demise" is a bit overstated. To me, there is nothing wrong with him physically. I think it's all mental. He's been having a great season, poor couple of games.

I think he's going to surprise many of us. His contract is going to look like a bargain.

Rey
01-02-2013, 07:45 AM
You can make up for arm issues by getting the ball out sooner, but an underthrow is an underthrow. You didn't put it out far enough. You saw your receiver and your pass came up short.

All this timing stuff is just more excise making. Kind of like bringing up his freaking stats. He's not and never has been some borderline elite qb. He was and is John kitna in a better system. And btw, 4,000 yards is not some magical mark in today's NFL. Matt schaub is like 10th in passing yardage and everyone behind him had less attempts except bradford who barely had less.

Mr teX
01-02-2013, 08:25 AM
You can make up for arm issues by getting the ball out sooner, but an underthrow is an underthrow. You didn't put it out far enough. You saw your receiver and your pass came up short.

All this timing stuff is just more excise making. Kind of like bringing up his freaking stats. He's not and never has been some borderline elite qb. He was and is John kitna in a better system. And btw, 4,000 yards is not some magical mark in today's NFL. Matt schaub is like 10th in passing yardage and everyone behind him had less attempts except bradford who barely had less.

it's not excuse making dude...nobody's saying that the int he threw sunday wasn't on him...

But you guys act like other qb's don't underthrow/otherthrow the ball. Just b/c you get to see every pass he underthrows, doesn't mean that all the other qb's aren't doing.......it happens.

Craig.
01-02-2013, 08:41 AM
Just b/c you get to see every pass he underthrows, doesn't mean that all the other qb's aren't doing.......it happens.

Never seems to happen when they play us lol

Hervoyel
01-02-2013, 08:53 AM
Sometimes the league just passes you by and it doesn't come with a big warning sign in neon lights. It happens when you start to be less and less effective doing things that used to form the core of your offense (or defense). Sure, there is definitely a talent shortage on the OL this year. QB play is poor after falling off from outstanding but in the end doesn't this offense, this system feel to you guys like it's just not working the way we all expected? Even the way it did a few years ago?

Think of how long we've been running this exact same offense. Granted we've got some rookies over there on the right side of the line but Foster's getting hit 3 yards in the backfield on the left side too. Guys who have been playing in this system for years and who were hand picked to run it are having trouble making it work against good defenses. Sure the scrubs are still getting rolled up with it but the teams we will be facing in the postseason aren't in the least bit baffled by what we're doing.

I think the problem our offense poses to defenses has been solved and we will begin seeing declining results that vary as our schedules difficulty varies. Chuck Noll didn't know when the game had passed him by and neither did Tom Landry. Shanahan in Washington seems to have been more than willing to change his offense to incorporate what RGIII had been doing and lets be honest, it's not like he was accomplishing much the last few years in Denver or the first few in Washington.

It's time to reinvent the wheel or it will be soon.

thunderkyss
01-02-2013, 09:13 AM
I think the problem our offense poses to defenses has been solved and we will begin seeing declining results that vary as our schedules difficulty varies.

It's time to reinvent the wheel or it will be soon.

FYI, Andre had 12 catches for 141 yards. Arian had 96 yards on 16 carries. Schaub was 24/36 for 275 yards (66% @ 7.6 ypc)

I don't think defenses have the problem solved yet. We're going to blow some minds through the play-offs.

GP
01-02-2013, 09:16 AM
I think the future of the NFL is in small, mobile QBs who have big fast WRs.

Russell Wilson and the Seahawks is the prime example.

Pete Carroll might have just become the next Bill Belichick in terms of finally learning what it takes to win in the NFL. Bill struggled multiple times before landing in N.E. and then stumbling upon Tom Brady...and even then, he had not employed the spread offense that eventually Tom Brady led into great success.

Pete should have started Matt Flynn, based on the standard "rules" of what happens when you pay a Qb a starter's salary. Pete, though, decided to go with a gut instinct. And I think the Seahawks might just play in the SB because of it.

They're legitimately dangerous now.

You have to go on gut instincts, and Kubiak and Smith just can't do that. It's still very old school to them. Loyalty and methodical plodding is the order of the day. Kubiak would never go for a fake punt when he's up on a team by 3 or 4 scores...Pete has learned what Bill learned: Eff 'em.

We're nice, as if we're to believe that the football gods prefer gentlemen and scholars. Look what it gets us.

Mr teX
01-02-2013, 09:19 AM
Sometimes the league just passes you by and it doesn't come with a big warning sign in neon lights. It happens when you start to be less and less effective doing things that used to form the core of your offense (or defense). Sure, there is definitely a talent shortage on the OL this year. QB play is poor after falling off from outstanding but in the end doesn't this offense, this system feel to you guys like it's just not working the way we all expected? Even the way it did a few years ago?

Think of how long we've been running this exact same offense. Granted we've got some rookies over there on the right side of the line but Foster's getting hit 3 yards in the backfield on the left side too. Guys who have been playing in this system for years and who were hand picked to run it are having trouble making it work against good defenses. Sure the scrubs are still getting rolled up with it but the teams we will be facing in the postseason aren't in the least bit baffled by what we're doing.

I think the problem our offense poses to defenses has been solved and we will begin seeing declining results that vary as our schedules difficulty varies. Chuck Noll didn't know when the game had passed him by and neither did Tom Landry. Shanahan in Washington seems to have been more than willing to change his offense to incorporate what RGIII had been doing and lets be honest, it's not like he was accomplishing much the last few years in Denver or the first few in Washington.

It's time to reinvent the wheel or it will be soon.

For this particular season, i think this is the thing that needs to happen more than anything..He just needs to change his philosophy...drop back and sling it...let the chips fall where they may.

GuerillaBlack
01-02-2013, 09:24 AM
I think the future of the NFL is in small, mobile QBs who have big fast WRs.

Russell Wilson and the Seahawks is the prime example.

Pete Carroll might have just become the next Bill Belichick in terms of finally learning what it takes to win in the NFL. Bill struggled multiple times before landing in N.E. and then stumbling upon Tom Brady...and even then, he had not employed the spread offense that eventually Tom Brady led into great success.

Pete should have started Matt Flynn, based on the standard "rules" of what happens when you pay a Qb a starter's salary. Pete, though, decided to go with a gut instinct. And I think the Seahawks might just play in the SB because of it.

They're legitimately dangerous now.

You have to go on gut instincts, and Kubiak and Smith just can't do that. It's still very old school to them. Loyalty and methodical plodding is the order of the day.

I don't know about small, mobile QBs being the future of the NFL. Just mobile/more athletic QBs. The days of statues are pretty much done. A QB needs to be able to move around, evade tacklers, scramble a few yards for a first down and maybe more, throw on the run, etc. Harbaugh also went with his gut in picking Kaepernick over Alex Smith. He saw his team becoming stagnant with Smith, and realized that putting in Kaepernick would open up the playbook more and allow for more big plays.

Corrosion
01-02-2013, 09:25 AM
To fix this offense , the passing game has to get verticle .... all this horozontal sh!t .... is going backwards. Problem is , the QB doesnt have the arm to get verticle.


Where's VY ?! (no , not really , that was a joke)

Hervoyel
01-02-2013, 09:30 AM
FYI, Andre had 12 catches for 141 yards. Arian had 96 yards on 16 carries. Schaub was 24/36 for 275 yards (66% @ 7.6 ypc)

I don't think defenses have the problem solved yet. We're going to blow some minds through the play-offs.


Sure they do. You ever heard the expression "_____________ is gonna get his, you just can't let him beat you".

Well, good defenses know how to make that happen against the Houston Texans. They have for a couple of years.

You're rattling off a bunch of statistics that all together amount to nothing but an "L". All day long the Colts were in control despite this wealth of statistics.

thunderkyss
01-02-2013, 09:33 AM
You're rattling off a bunch of statistics that all together amount to nothing but an "L". All day long the Colts were in control despite this wealth of statistics.

It means they're getting their scht together & are going to blow the doors off the play-offs.

Indy didn't stop us. We did.

GuerillaBlack
01-02-2013, 09:41 AM
It means they're getting their scht together & are going to blow the doors off the play-offs.

Indy didn't stop us. We did.

So, they give away the number one seed in the playoffs in order to "get their **** together"? That doesn't make much sense.

steelbtexan
01-02-2013, 09:50 AM
It means they're getting their scht together & are going to blow the doors off the play-offs.

Indy didn't stop us. We did.

What game were you watching? The Texans were soundly beaten in all three phases of the game. To think otherwise is, well delusional. IMHO

deucetx
01-02-2013, 09:57 AM
What game were you watching? The Texans were soundly beaten in all three phases of the game. To think otherwise is, well delusional. IMHO

I believe what he is meaning is it wasn't the Colts that dominated us but mental lapses. The touchdown on the deep seam pattern was a mental lapse by the safety. Not a mano y mano situation. The touchdown on the kickoff return where the guy wasn't even touched because folks didn't maintain their lanes is another mental lapse. On top of this you got the silly penalties as well.

So basically 14 points right there where guys forgot about the mental part of their job. They weren't beat, they beat themselves. It was nothing clever or that took amazing effort on the Colts part. Just took bonehead moments.

In the end, it matters little. Colts won and deserved it since they played like they wanted to win where the Texans looked to be going through the motions as if they 'expected' to win instead of fighting for it.

Rey
01-02-2013, 10:00 AM
it's not excuse making dude...nobody's saying that the int he threw sunday wasn't on him...

But you guys act like other qb's don't underthrow/otherthrow the ball. Just b/c you get to see every pass he underthrows, doesn't mean that all the other qb's aren't doing.......it happens.

All QB's don't underthrow WRs like Schaub. He underthrows more than he overthrows or puts the ball where the WR can catch it in stride. I've watched plenty of football and good QB's aren't consistently underthrowing WR's.... More excuse making...par for the course.

GP
01-02-2013, 10:02 AM
I don't know about small, mobile QBs being the future of the NFL. Just mobile/more athletic QBs. The days of statues are pretty much done. A QB needs to be able to move around, evade tacklers, scramble a few yards for a first down and maybe more, throw on the run, etc. Harbaugh also went with his gut in picking Kaepernick over Alex Smith. He saw his team becoming stagnant with Smith, and realized that putting in Kaepernick would open up the playbook more and allow for more big plays.

Drew Brees is small, he's done OK.

The bigger guys tend to get hit harder, IMO. I think guys like Brees and Wilson will play longer than guys like Cam and RGIII because of height issues. The smaller guys tend to find ways to avoid the hits when running, and the taller guys tend to not protect themselves as much.

Goodell, for better or for worse, is basically making the NFL into the Arena League but with the pageantry of the NFL. Sling the ball all day long.

Hervoyel
01-02-2013, 10:05 AM
It means they're getting their scht together & are going to blow the doors off the play-offs.

Indy didn't stop us. We did.

No, sorry. Indy stopped us. It's a nice take on things and I wish I could share it with you but Indy played hard, flew to the ball, and blasted through our line most of the day.

Mr teX
01-02-2013, 10:29 AM
To fix this offense , the passing game has to get verticle .... all this horozontal sh!t .... is going backwards. Problem is , the QB doesnt have the arm to get verticle.


Where's VY ?! (no , not really , that was a joke)

His arm strength isn't really the issue imo... he's got enough to get it where it needs to be. There were and have been more than a few throws that he made in the colts game and in all of these games that you wouldn't think he could make if his arm strength was the chief issue.

It's his footwork that's the main issue imo. When you're throwing a ball of any kind, that front foot/toe should always be pointed directly at your target..or where you're throwing. with both his ints, his foot placement was off. If you watch guys like Brady and Manning, they're front foot/toe is always pointed straight forward to their target. Another thing he also tends to do is overstride when he throws deep. Mark Sanchez has this issue...Donovan Mcnabb had this issue too.

In any event, Both of these things effect accuracy and can also affect how much "umf" you can get on the ball...

his 1st int, it looks to me he overstrided a little..& looking at the replay of it..i don't think his foot was placed where it should've been either..it wasn't pointed forward to his target that's for sure.

His 2nd int, while he didn't overstride, his front foot just kinda goes off to the side when he's moving forward on the balance-weight transfer..

Mr teX
01-02-2013, 10:31 AM
All QB's don't underthrow WRs like Schaub. He underthrows more than he overthrows or puts the ball where the WR can catch it in stride. I've watched plenty of football and good QB's aren't consistently underthrowing WR's.... More excuse making...par for the course.

Lol, he underthrew a whole 2 passes this sunday...yeah most qb's aren't consistently doing that...overstate the guys flaws, minimize what he does well..par for the course indeed.

GP
01-02-2013, 10:33 AM
His arm strength isn't really the issue imo... he's got enough to get it where it needs to be. There were and have been more than a few throws that he made in the colts game and in all of these games that you wouldn't think he could make if his arm strength was the chief issue.

It's his footwork that's the main issue imo. When you're throwing a ball of any kind, that front foot/toe should always be pointed directly at your target..or where you're throwing. with both his ints, his foot placement was off. If you watch guys like Brady and Manning, they're front foot/toe is always pointed straight forward to their target. Another thing he also tends to do is overstride when he throws deep. Mark Sanchez has this issue...Donovan Mcnabb had this issue too.

In any event, Both of these things effect accuracy and can also affect how much "umf" you can get on the ball...

his 1st int, it looks to me he overstrided a little..& looking at the replay of it..i don't think his foot was placed where it should've been either..it wasn't pointed forward to his target that's for sure.

His 2nd int, while he didn't overstride, his front foot just kinda goes off to the side when he's moving forward on the balance-weight transfer..

Where have you been?

The guy has been under throwing long passes since Day 1. DAY ONE.

Long before his injury from Albert Haynesworth, I might add.

He doesn't have the feel for the deep pass. It's always on target (never wide right or wide left), don't get me wrong, but the length of those passes is more often short than anything. Or he has that rare throw that is too far beyond the WR. Rarely has Schaub hit a player in stride. Most of the time, his receivers are slowing down for it.

When Kevin Walter is having to slow down for a deep pass, that's REALLY bad news. Slow WRs having to slow down on deep passes is a very bad thing.

There seems to be a range where Schaub is just unable to gauge how much mustard to put on the pass. He hits those post patterns to OD just fine. Anything with extreme loft under it, and it's like a damn moon shot.

Double Barrel
01-02-2013, 10:36 AM
All QB's don't underthrow WRs like Schaub. He underthrows more than he overthrows or puts the ball where the WR can catch it in stride. I've watched plenty of football and good QB's aren't consistently underthrowing WR's.... More excuse making...par for the course.

That first INT last game really highlights some serious issues with Schaub. He rolled out, felt absolutely NO pressure, had plenty of time, and under-threw the ball for an easy INT.

There is no excuse for a starting NFL QB to not make that throw to a receiver in stride. It should have been a huge gain, even a TD, but instead, it was a clear example that Schaub either made a horrible decision and/or cannot consistently make long throws in stride. Either way, it's a bad sign.

steelbtexan
01-02-2013, 10:44 AM
His arm strength isn't really the issue imo... he's got enough to get it where it needs to be. There were and have been more than a few throws that he made in the colts game and in all of these games that you wouldn't think he could make if his arm strength was the chief issue.

It's his footwork that's the main issue imo. When you're throwing a ball of any kind, that front foot/toe should always be pointed directly at your target..or where you're throwing. with both his ints, his foot placement was off. If you watch guys like Brady and Manning, they're front foot/toe is always pointed straight forward to their target. Another thing he also tends to do is overstride when he throws deep. Mark Sanchez has this issue...Donovan Mcnabb had this issue too.

In any event, Both of these things effect accuracy and can also affect how much "umf" you can get on the ball...

his 1st int, it looks to me he overstrided a little..& looking at the replay of it..i don't think his foot was placed where it should've been either..it wasn't pointed forward to his target that's for sure.

His 2nd int, while he didn't overstride, his front foot just kinda goes off to the side when he's moving forward on the balance-weight transfer..

The foot injury is what's causing his inaccuracy problems. Along with his inability to avoid the rush. Schaub never has been accurate on deep passes.

Mr teX
01-02-2013, 10:47 AM
Where have you been?

The guy has been under throwing long passes since Day 1. DAY ONE.

Long before his injury from Albert Haynesworth, I might add.

He doesn't have the feel for the deep pass. It's always on target (never wide right or wide left), don't get me wrong, but the length of those passes is more often short than anything. Or he has that rare throw that is too far beyond the WR. Rarely has Schaub hit a player in stride. Most of the time, his receivers are slowing down for it.

When Kevin Walter is having to slow down for a deep pass, that's REALLY bad news. Slow WRs having to slow down on deep passes is a very bad thing.

There seems to be a range where Schaub is just unable to gauge how much mustard to put on the pass. He hits those post patterns to OD just fine. Anything with extreme loft under it, and it's like a damn moon shot.

i'm not disputing that..what i'm saying is that his arm strength probably hasn't been the chief cause of these underthrows/overthrows/accuracy issues b/c he's making those same types of throws and other types of throws that make it there just fine... in the same game nonetheless...

The missed TD pass to AJ was about the same length as the 43 yd pass he underthrew to Casey that was intercepted....So was his 2nd int.. 1 was an overthrow, 1 was an underthrow, the other was right on target...

So you have to ask yourself why can't he be consistent with his deep throws? Footwork and throwing mechanics...

that's all im saying.

GuerillaBlack
01-02-2013, 10:53 AM
That first INT last game really highlights some serious issues with Schaub. He rolled out, felt absolutely NO pressure, had plenty of time, and under-threw the ball for an easy INT.

There is no excuse for a starting NFL QB to not make that throw to a receiver in stride. It should have been a huge gain, even a TD, but instead, it was a clear example that Schaub either made a horrible decision and/or cannot consistently make long throws in stride. Either way, it's a bad sign.

And Kubiak was pretty damn pissed after that one. Face red and was most likely cussing up a storm. I can only imagine what he was saying. Schaub set his feet and launched that. With the way he threw it, I felt that we were about to get a big reception for a TD. Instead, it was an INT.

GP
01-02-2013, 10:55 AM
i'm not disputing that..what i'm saying is that his arm strength probably hasn't been the chief cause of these underthrows/overthrows/accuracy issues b/c he's making those same types of throws and other types of throws that make it there just fine... in the same game nonetheless...

The missed TD pass to AJ was about the same length as the 43 yd pass he underthrew to Casey that was intercepted....So was his 2nd int.. 1 was an overthrow, 1 was an underthrow, the other was right on target...

So you have to ask yourself why can't he be consistent with his deep throws? Footwork and throwing mechanics...

that's all im saying.

Which begs the question: Why did the front office feel the need to give Matt a new deal only ONE GAME into the 2012 season?

This franchise is goo-goo ga-ga for their QBs. They gave Carr an unbelievable $8 million if for no other reason than to be a nice parting gift on his way out of here. I firmly believe that Bob McNair is trying to run an NFL franchise in ways that are not fiscally sound as it relates to how we damn sure know that normal businesses are operated.

Not at any time would a Bob McNair overpay such an underperforming person in a normal business setting. It almost makes one wonder if he's getting a damn tax write-off for having paid Carr that money. Am I right?

So here we are, AGAIN, watching him do the same thing: Watching him tie the salary cap noose tighter around our team's neck by giving Schaub a new deal so quickly. What a bad, bad mistake. Terrible. Sure, at the time he looked phenomenal and it might have made sense. But geez, it's just 1 game into a 16-game season. And then the post-season awaits too. Why do that? I don't get it.

Bob goes out, gets a proven d-coord for his HC...drafts a whale of a player in JJ Watt...trims the fat by cutting Winston, letting Dreessen and Brisiel walk (bigger paydays elsewhere), re-signs his LT and his RB and his C. And then promptly goes and re-signs an unproven QB who is now tanking hard. HARD.

The Kubiak deal and the Schaub deal are the dual threat to this franchise. Bob still hasn't grown a solid pair of NFL Owner Testicles yet. He let 2011 go to his head, excuse me...no, he let it go to his HEART. And now we're screwed for the next 2 or possibly even 3 years.

It's maddening. The heart will betray you. It doesn't think or compute, and Bob's heart has betrayed him. Again. And we get to feel the residual impact of it. Does he even know this? Does he bother reconciling the books on this issue? I doubt it. It's status quo with those guys. Everything is fine. Nobody is in the paper today for a bad crime. We're in the playoffs! Good guys always end up on top. Blah blah blah.

Double Barrel
01-02-2013, 11:03 AM
And Kubiak was pretty damn pissed after that one. Face red and was most likely cussing up a storm. I can only imagine what he was saying. Schaub set his feet and launched that. With the way he threw it, I felt that we were about to get a big reception for a TD. Instead, it was an INT.

yeah, Kubiak looked pissed and disgusted.

I've seen the replay at least a dozen times, and I just don't get it. Overthrow the receiver, but to have all that time and under-throw when a defender is trailing is just a plain stupid decision in a clutch situation.

That play has absolutely nothing to do with Kubiak (it was a good call) and everything to do with Schaub and his failure to execute the play.

What is really depressing is the continuous highlights of other QBs last weekend hitting guys in stride for scores.

thunderkyss
01-02-2013, 12:58 PM
I believe what he is meaning is it wasn't the Colts that dominated us but mental lapses. The touchdown on the deep seam pattern was a mental lapse by the safety. Not a mano y mano situation. The touchdown on the kickoff return where the guy wasn't even touched because folks didn't maintain their lanes is another mental lapse. On top of this you got the silly penalties as well.

So basically 14 points right there where guys forgot about the mental part of their job. They weren't beat, they beat themselves. It was nothing clever or that took amazing effort on the Colts part. Just took bonehead moments.


Not to mention the two bad throws by Schaub that went to the other team. One was "definitely" a touchdown..... that's another 7 points.


In the end, it matters little. Colts won and deserved it since they played like they wanted to win where the Texans looked to be going through the motions as if they 'expected' to win instead of fighting for it.

Absolutely & I don't mean to take anything away from the Colts, or Luck. That kid, for the first time, impressed the Fk out of me. Think about it, all the things we tried to do that didn't work, worked for them. The bubble screen to Andre that went for a -3 yards, Luck & Hilton busted a 15 yard play on the same thing. We tried to catch them with a quick snap to pick up a first down.... didn't set long enough, still didn't get the first down. Luck picked up the first down on one play & punked us getting off the field on another. His inflections on his snap count. 3 or more offsides.

But to win at this level, you've got to capitalize on the mistakes of the other team..... they did that. You also have to minimize the mistakes of your own team. They did that as well. They won the game. If we'd have cleaned up our own mistakes, we'd have made it more difficult for them but as it stands, they won it.

thunderkyss
01-02-2013, 01:10 PM
I've seen the replay at least a dozen times, and I just don't get it. Overthrow the receiver, but to have all that time and under-throw when a defender is trailing..

Doesn't really matter, but Davis wasn't trailing Casey. Casey was being covered by a LB. He lost him somewhere in the middle of the field. That corner came off his man & had time to cut under Casey to pick that ball.

In other words, not only did he underthrow it, but he put way to much air under it... or threw it way to late. Had he thrown it earlier, or with less air under it, it would have been a different story. That was a bad throw for many reasons.

Uncle Rico
01-02-2013, 01:37 PM
Shaub puts too much air/arc on his deep passes.

Rey
01-02-2013, 01:45 PM
Shaub puts too much air/arc on his deep passes.

He does that because he doesn't have the arm to take the air off of his passes.

When you can put velocity on the ball you don't have to put as much air under the ball. It gets to the target faster and it's usually more accurate of a pass...

The weaker your arm the more air you have to put under the ball.

CloakNNNdagger
01-02-2013, 02:04 PM
His arm strength isn't really the issue imo... he's got enough to get it where it needs to be. There were and have been more than a few throws that he made in the colts game and in all of these games that you wouldn't think he could make if his arm strength was the chief issue.

It's his footwork that's the main issue imo. When you're throwing a ball of any kind, that front foot/toe should always be pointed directly at your target..or where you're throwing. with both his ints, his foot placement was off. If you watch guys like Brady and Manning, they're front foot/toe is always pointed straight forward to their target. Another thing he also tends to do is overstride when he throws deep. Mark Sanchez has this issue...Donovan Mcnabb had this issue too.

In any event, Both of these things effect accuracy and can also affect how much "umf" you can get on the ball...

his 1st int, it looks to me he overstrided a little..& looking at the replay of it..i don't think his foot was placed where it should've been either..it wasn't pointed forward to his target that's for sure.

His 2nd int, while he didn't overstride, his front foot just kinda goes off to the side when he's moving forward on the balance-weight transfer..


The strength of a QB's throw is primarily dependent on strength of chest muscles (mostly pec) AND strength of leg muscles transferred to the plant foot. That "repaired" back foot is what a QB relies on for that "umf" you speak of. Whether because of any residual instability of repair following the removal of his hardware, or stretching of the healed ligaments as the season has progressed, or simply from pain or tenderness (very common chronic progressive problem following repair of Lisfranc with fracture, just ask Marcus), any one of these will significantly affect velocity, distance and accuracy. All of these will be a major factor in maintaining "balance." If you are trying to compensate for any of the things I mentioned, you will try to avoid placing stress on the affected areas. This easily compromises the consistency of all aspects of a QB's passing game. When you lose the ability to fully balance in motion using your back foot as main support, you are forced to regain some of that balance with the increased use of that front foot rather than solely allowing it to work for aiming balance. This can easily account for the awkward final positions of his front foot, something I've coincidentally also discussed with several MB members in the past.

Schaub no doubt is wearing a nonyielding full-length orthotic shoe insert or sole to avoid undue stresses on the ball of his foot that would transmit those stresses to the Lisfranc area.......in other words, trying to avoid recreating the forces that led to the injury in the first place.


http://www.aafp.org/afp/1998/0701/afp19980701p118-f4.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cXMTocS0Ens/TsO-oW7bEdI/AAAAAAAAAeI/vxQRyI4-B74/s1600/afp19980701p118-f5.jpg


The fact that this orthotic does not allow the free bending of the ball of the foot joint area, should make it clear that "push off" with his plant foot would require in itself some adjustment to mechanics.

To make it more simple to understand. Fashion a plank of plywood. Stick it in your sneakers. Put a pair of socks on...............but before that, put a small pebble in it near the back end of your instep (arch) to replicate some "discomfort." Feel free to use a larger rock for greater "discomfort." Then tie your laces up tightly. Now go out there, run around, and try passing the football around. You may find that things don't work out too well for you.........and less and less as you are out there longer and longer.

Rey
01-02-2013, 02:52 PM
Lol, he underthrew a whole 2 passes this sunday...yeah most qb's aren't consistently doing that...overstate the guys flaws, minimize what he does well..par for the course indeed.

You sound ridiculous.

He underthrew two long balls. How many of those do you think you get a game? How many deep passes like that did he even have? What the hell are you talking about?

And stop acting like this is a one game problem. How long have you been watching the Texans?

Acting like Schaub has all of a sudden started underthrowing deep balls is silly.

Vinny
01-02-2013, 02:54 PM
You sound ridiculous.

He underthrew two long balls. How many deep passes like that did he even have? What the hell are you talking about?

And stop acting like this is a one game problem. How long have you been watching the Texans?

Acting like Schaub has all of a sudden started underthrowing deep balls is silly.
The one thing AJ has not done at a HOF level is catch TD passes. Some of that is because he isn't a great natural runner but I think most of it has to do with Schaub's inability to hit him in stride when he is wide open. I think he has missed out on at least 6 more TD's per year just due to this.

Hervoyel
01-02-2013, 03:16 PM
The one thing AJ has not done at a HOF level is catch TD passes. Some of that is because he isn't a great natural runner but I think most of it has to do with Schaub's inability to hit him in stride when he is wide open. I think he has missed out on at least 6 more TD's per year just due to this.


With Carr it was a question of whether or not he'd already been sacked by the time AJ got open and then later a question of whether David was even looking by the time AJ got open.

With Schaub it's been a pretty steady series of passes where Dre hade to wait for the ball and sometimes play cornerback on short notice to break up a pick.

Vinny
01-02-2013, 03:20 PM
With Carr it was a question of whether or not he'd already been sacked by the time AJ got open and then later a question of whether David was even looking by the time AJ got open.

With Schaub it's been a pretty steady series of passes where Dre hade to wait for the ball and sometimes play cornerback on short notice to break up a pick.
without Johnson's jump ball skills this offense would be an ugly duckling

Mr teX
01-02-2013, 03:25 PM
You sound ridiculous.

He underthrew two long balls. How many of those do you think you get a game? How many deep passes like that did he even have? What the hell are you talking about?

And stop acting like this is a one game problem. How long have you been watching the Texans?

Acting like Schaub has all of a sudden started underthrowing deep balls is silly.

WTF are you talking about? He threw 5 long balls the entire game. & unless there's a play that i'm forgetting about, only 1 of them was underthrown.

1 was underthrown to Casey
1 was thrown perfectly to AJ in the end zone that he dropped
1 was overthrown to AJ in the end zone - int
1 was overthrown to Jean on the sideline- barely

the was another thrown deep but it was a pass interference on Davis

That's 1 damn clearly underthrown long pass of 5 on sunday.

& for the record, i never said any damn thing about it being a 1 game thing..He underthrows passes all the time...but so does every qb in the league...Just b/c the WR makes a play on it and comes down with it doesn't mean that they didn't have to slow down for it and adjust...or turn around to catch it doesn't mean it wasn't underthrown.

Someone listening to you would believe every single pass this dude threw was underthrown.

I sound ridiculous? you sound ridiculous...but i get it, that kinda stuff doesn't fit into your nice neat box...

thunderkyss
01-02-2013, 03:50 PM
Acting like Schaub has all of a sudden started underthrowing deep balls is silly.

It's been a topic on this board so much that someone found a quote where he says he does that on purpose, giving "his guys" an opportunity to make a play on the ball.

I thought that was the funniest thing I had ever heard, however, someone brought stats showing Matt completes those deep balls more frequently than your "elite" guys.

I still find it laughable, but if those numbers were true (& if I get time, I'll look for it).... maybe he has a point.


I think he has missed out on at least 6 more TD's per year just due to this.

Yeah, I"ve mentioned that before as well. I think you're being cautious with that 6 number though.

without Johnson's jump ball skills this offense would be an ugly duckling

I'd love to join the dump on Schaub/Kubiak thing that's going on right now, but.... we're talking about James Casey being WTF open. Think about that for a minute. We've also seen KDub WTF open as well.... last year, it was Dressen.

None of those guys are barn burners, or precision route runners, yet they get wide open. Matt generally doesn't throw that ball, unless his guy is wide open.

His ball placement, when the guy isn't wide open is so bad, that the defender regularly has a better play on the ball than our guy, so he normally knows to wait until he's got someone wide open.


Just saying.

Vinny
01-02-2013, 03:52 PM
The Mayan's said that I'd agree with Fiddler right around this time...amazing.

76Texan
01-02-2013, 04:02 PM
We all know that Schaub doesn't have the biggest arm, far from that.

But I know he overthrew Andre Davis a few times; I remembered wishing that he had put a little more air under those balls.

But why harping on the details, we all knew he's somewhere under/over average in that department.

He's getting paid for less than the norm (if you prorated the contracts out to cover a whole career), why would you expect him to be much better than what he's getting paid for?

GP
01-02-2013, 04:02 PM
WTF are you talking about? He threw 5 long balls the entire game. & unless there's a play that i'm forgetting about, only 1 of them was underthrown.

1 was underthrown to Casey
1 was thrown perfectly to AJ in the end zone that he dropped
1 was overthrown to AJ in the end zone - int
1 was overthrown to Jean on the sideline- barely

the was another thrown deep but it was a pass interference on Davis

That's 1 damn clearly underthrown long pass of 5 on sunday.

& for the record, i never said any damn thing about it being a 1 game thing..He underthrows passes all the time...but so does every qb in the league...Just b/c the WR makes a play on it and comes down with it doesn't mean that they didn't have to slow down for it and adjust...or turn around to catch it doesn't mean it wasn't underthrown.

Someone listening to you would believe every single pass this dude threw was underthrown.

I sound ridiculous? you sound ridiculous...but i get it, that kinda stuff doesn't fit into your nice neat box...

There are certain throws of his that are always too short, mostly anything over 15 or 20 yards. Sometimes he overthrows, though. Rarely has this guy ever hit a WR in perfect stride on a DEEP pass.

The timing throws, like slants and seam routes and stuff...those that are pretty flat on their trajectory...he can handle. Throwing up a really deep pass, though, he gets it to the moon and even a guy like Kevin Walter (slow as molasses) has to slow down.

If Kevin Walter is slowing down for your deep passes, brother you got a problem at QB on those throws.

Corrosion
01-02-2013, 04:05 PM
The strength of a QB's throw is primarily dependent on strength of chest muscles (mostly pec) AND strength of leg muscles transferred to the plant foot. That "repaired" back foot is what a QB relies on for that "umf" you speak of. Whether because of any residual instability of repair following the removal of his hardware, or stretching of the healed ligaments as the season has progressed, or simply from pain or tenderness (very common chronic progressive problem following repair of Lisfranc with fracture, just ask Marcus), any one of these will significantly affect velocity, distance and accuracy. All of these will be a major factor in maintaining "balance." If you are trying to compensate for any of the things I mentioned, you will try to avoid placing stress on the affected areas. This easily compromises the consistency of all aspects of a QB's passing game. When you lose the ability to fully balance in motion using your back foot as main support, you are forced to regain some of that balance with the increased use of that front foot rather than solely allowing it to work for aiming balance. This can easily account for the awkward final positions of his front foot, something I've coincidentally also discussed with several MB members in the past.

Schaub no doubt is wearing a nonyielding full-length orthotic shoe insert or sole to avoid undue stresses on the ball of his foot that would transmit those stresses to the Lisfranc area.......in other words, trying to avoid recreating the forces that led to the injury in the first place.





The fact that this orthotic does not allow the free bending of the ball of the foot joint area, should make it clear that "push off" with his plant foot would require in itself some adjustment to mechanics.

To make it more simple to understand. Fashion a plank of plywood. Stick it in your sneakers. Put a pair of socks on...............but before that, put a small pebble in it near the back end of your instep (arch) to replicate some "discomfort." Feel free to use a larger rock for greater "discomfort." Then tie your laces up tightly. Now go out there, run around, and try passing the football around. You may find that things don't work out too well for you.........and less and less as you are out there longer and longer.

To put it mildly , Schaub is damaged goods and isnt going to get any better over the long haul.
He'll have that plywood and rock in his shoe for the duration ....:polevault:

Say Watt
01-02-2013, 04:09 PM
To put it mildly , Schaub is damaged goods and isnt going to get any better over the long haul.
He'll have that plywood and rock in his shoe for the duration ....:polevault:

And our front office was intelligent enough to give him an extension before the season...

:facepalm:

GuerillaBlack
01-02-2013, 05:13 PM
And our front office was intelligent enough to give him an extension before the season...

:facepalm:

No, just one game. That was all they needed to see before giving him 24.5M guaranteed.

GP
01-02-2013, 05:46 PM
No, just one game. That was all they needed to see before giving him 24.5M guaranteed.

Yep. Immediately after the game it was tweeted by various Houston sports media yayhoos that Rick and Bob gave Matt a new deal.

I mean, talk about premature ejaculation of cash and contract terms!

Sheesh, what a frigging dumb thing to do. It's as if they did that to quash the whole Peyton Manning situation whereby Kubiak told Matt (jokingly) to go get Manning at the airport. Yeah, he has a great game in Game 1 of a 16-game season and by gawd! let's get this awesome QB locked up.

"Look! LOOK! We got us a great QB too! We're juuuuust fine here in Houston!"

Reeks of P.R. move, to me. But hell, we were so high on our own fumes that we couldn't see it for that. Look back on it now, though.

CloakNNNdagger
01-02-2013, 06:20 PM
Yep. Immediately after the game it was tweeted by various Houston sports media yayhoos that Rick and Bob gave Matt a new deal.

I mean, talk about premature ejaculation of cash and contract terms!

Sheesh, what a frigging dumb thing to do. It's as if they did that to quash the whole Peyton Manning situation whereby Kubiak told Matt (jokingly) to go get Manning at the airport. Yeah, he has a great game in Game 1 of a 16-game season and by gawd! let's get this awesome QB locked up.

"Look! LOOK! We got us a great QB too! We're juuuuust fine here in Houston!"

Reeks of P.R. move, to me. But hell, we were so high on our own fumes that we couldn't see it for that. Look back on it now, though.

msr:spit:

steelbtexan
01-02-2013, 06:22 PM
msr:spit:

LOL

Got him

GP
01-02-2013, 06:30 PM
Makes one wonder if this "meltdown" we're having is due to Schaub's premature contract.

You think any of those guys don't sit there from time to time and second-guess Matt's potential, too?

I think Foster earned his. Myers earned his. Brown, as well.

But when guys like 'Meco and Winston and Brisiel and Dressen are walking (for various reasons) and then this organization gives MATT SCHAUB a guaranteed deal after the very first game???

Sometimes people are not as loyal as old Gary Don Kubiak. That is a plausible reason that this team, its core leaders, are barely treading water. You gotta dig deep into the suitcase of courage at this time of year in the NFL. These guys are barely flinching that they got smoked in two HFA-clinching attempts. Andre is, to me, the only one who's like "Goddammit! My time is almost up! YOU HEAR ME?" Everyone else is almost really just coasting. WHY? It's not just fluke loss of momentum. There's deeper stuff. Think about the Ben Tate episodes too. I don't think guys appreciated how Gary treated Ben in the media. I think Gary's a SMALL person when the curtains are pulled back. IMO.

The Broncos are showing that they 100% will lay down their lives and do whatever it takes. Why? Leadership. Consistent, reliable, quantifiable leadership from their QB. Period.

That knowledge that you, as a defense or any other player out there, can literally fly like there's no tomorrow because your QB is ready to go. He got you. Do what you do. Forehead GOT you. At the endo f the day, I have to respect that as a fan of football. I have to absolutely stand up, clap my hands at the TV, and congratulate any of these teams who went out on limbs to do WHATEVER it took.

Carroll choosing unknown Wilson over Flynn, and sticking by him.

Harbaugh for benching Smith and trying Kap. For signing a damn KICKER today to compete against the veteran Akers. Right before the playoffs!

Shanahan for trusting RGIII and that Baylor system he ran so well.

Colts for tanking in 2011 and then not only getting Luck but letting him run the Stanford system more or less.

Patriots for taking chances on castaways and teaching us all that every "would be star" just wants a chance to play for a winner.

The list is long. Teams are shaking things up out there. Like DB said, we're getting passed by but hell..we were never "there" anyways. That's why so many in the media wouldn't give us that "love" we wanted, btw. We see why. Now.

GP
01-02-2013, 07:01 PM
The Texans were wise, P.R. wise.

They got out ahead of Peyton's progressively better performances as the season was wearing on.

By signing Schaub early, and running wreck over teams--even Peyton's Broncos--you felt like, "Man! We DID make the right choice!" You didn't want a Schitty Schaub at the end of the season and UH-OH! what.in.the.hell? you mean Peyton's team has a bye and looks way better than Schaub???

This way, Schaub is forced upon you. Locked up. Now we gots cap ramifications, too, so..uhh.umm..well...we can't move him NOW!

This might be my best conspiracy theory YET! :brando:

Corrosion
01-02-2013, 07:07 PM
The Texans were wise, P.R. wise.

They got out ahead of Peyton's progressively better performances as the season was wearing on.

By signing Schaub early, and running wreck over teams--even Peyton's Broncos--you felt like, "Man! We DID make the right choice!" You didn't want a Schitty Schaub at the end of the season and UH-OH! what.in.the.hell? you mean Peyton's team has a bye and looks way better than Schaub???

This way, Schaub is forced upon you. Locked up. Now we gots cap ramifications, too, so..uhh.umm..well...we can't move him NOW!

This might be my best conspiracy theory YET! :brando:


Schaub isnt forced upon us .... they can cut him after next season with minimal cap damage. As Badboy pointed out in one of the mock threads .... Smith gave him a very team friendly contract.


Dont know why you bring Pey-Me-A-Ton into the conversation again .... dude was far more expensive than the Texans could afford due to the cap .... and he was damaged goods. No one really knew if he could return from that neck injury.

The Bronco's were in perfect position to take the gamble ..... They had a zero at QB along with the cap space to get a deal done.

DX-TEX
01-02-2013, 07:10 PM
Schaub isnt forced upon us .... they can cut him after next season with minimal cap damage. As Badboy pointed out in one of the mock threads .... Smith gave him a very team friendly contract.


Dont know why you bring Pey-Me-A-Ton into the conversation again .... dude was far more expensive than the Texans could afford due to the cap .... and he was damaged goods. No one really knew if he could return from that neck injury.

The Bronco's were in perfect position to take the gamble ..... They had a zero at QB along with the cap space to get a deal done.

There was talk that Peyton would have taken less from Houston. It was the only spot he REALLY wanted to go to so he could stick it to Irsay twice a year. After we rejected him he moved on and the bidding commenced. None of this will ever be confirmed until after he retires Im sure.

Texecutioner
01-02-2013, 07:11 PM
I think the future of the NFL is in small, mobile QBs who have big fast WRs.

Russell Wilson and the Seahawks is the prime example.

Pete Carroll might have just become the next Bill Belichick in terms of finally learning what it takes to win in the NFL. Bill struggled multiple times before landing in N.E. and then stumbling upon Tom Brady...and even then, he had not employed the spread offense that eventually Tom Brady led into great success.

Pete should have started Matt Flynn, based on the standard "rules" of what happens when you pay a Qb a starter's salary. Pete, though, decided to go with a gut instinct. And I think the Seahawks might just play in the SB because of it.

They're legitimately dangerous now.

You have to go on gut instincts, and Kubiak and Smith just can't do that. It's still very old school to them. Loyalty and methodical plodding is the order of the day. Kubiak would never go for a fake punt when he's up on a team by 3 or 4 scores...Pete has learned what Bill learned: Eff 'em.

We're nice, as if we're to believe that the football gods prefer gentlemen and scholars. Look what it gets us.

Lets see if Pete Carroll can win a few playoff games and then a few SB's before anyone even remotely calls him the potentially the next BB of the NFL. BB has won 3 out of 5 SB's as a HC and won 2 SB's as a DC.

Carroll doesn't even have anything to be mentioned in the same breath as BB as of now. He has a great college career, but he hasn't built anything to compare him to BB as of yet. He's got at least 3 SB appearances before that takes place.

Corrosion
01-02-2013, 07:25 PM
There was talk that Peyton would have taken less from Houston. It was the only spot he REALLY wanted to go to so he could stick it to Irsay twice a year. After we rejected him he moved on and the bidding commenced. None of this will ever be confirmed until after he retires Im sure.

Its already been refuted .... Just put on your :tinfoil: and wait a decade or so.


Point blank , Bob Allen gave bad information. Just the media being the media trying to make a mountian out of a molehill .... Do you really believe Pey-Me-A-Ton would leave $10m on the table ?! (thats the difference between Schaub and Manning this year roughly.)


Never waste a controversy.

playa465
01-02-2013, 07:26 PM
The Good (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN6rGs72ckA&feature=related)
The Bad (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000118775/Schaub-INT)
and
The Ugly
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v290/playa759/SchuabChin_zps824804f6.jpg

Texecutioner
01-02-2013, 07:29 PM
Its already been refuted .... Just put on your :tinfoil: and wait a decade or so.


Point blank , Bob Allen gave bad information. Just the media being the media trying to make a mountian out of a molehill .... Do you really believe Pey-Me-A-Ton would leave $10m on the table ?! (thats the difference between Schaub and Manning this year roughly.)


Never waste a controversy.

I was just as frustrated as anybody that we didn't at least "try" to get Manning, but I know that we didn't have the chance financially, so it's a moot point really. Way to many moves they would have been able to make personel wise to free up the cap space. Also, Rick Smith is incapable of being able to accomplish that regardless of how hard he could try. When it comes to blockbuster moves, Rick Smith is way to conservative to ever go after a blockbuster deal like that with full force.

I don't know why people keep bringing up Manning. It doesn't matter now any way. We have what we have. Might as well discuss what we can do going forward as opposed to these mental masturbation arguments of how we could have landed Manning.

gtexan02
01-02-2013, 07:36 PM
Remember in 2009 when we always had guys open in the middle of the field for 15 yard gains plus YAC? What happened to that?


The difference is not Schaub so much as it is play call and separation. I don't see guys open like I did 3 years ago. Is it because we don't have the personnel? Is it because we don't have the playcalls? That's not on Schaub

Texan_Bill
01-02-2013, 07:57 PM
There was talk that Peyton would have taken less from Houston. It was the only spot he REALLY wanted to go to so he could stick it to Irsay twice a year. After we rejected him he moved on and the bidding commenced. None of this will ever be confirmed until after he retires Im sure.

Not 'that' much less from Houston. The Texans still couldn't have afforded him. Admitting anything less is simply disingenous.


**********

At the end of the day, Schaub's lack of production lately comes down to what DocJean (aka CnD) predicted based on his knowledge of Schaub's Linsfranc fracture...

**********

I guess the Texans will have to figure out a way to win in other ways. For example: How about the Texans "D" getting off the field. As I understand it (and I have not re-watched the Colts game), The Colts got the ball with (9:46 left in the 4th). That said, the Texans used their timeouts, but never got the ball back.

Seriously? The Colts got the ball with 9:46 left in the 4th and the Texans never touched the ball again? BTW, the Colts ran out 9:46 of the clock and they're not a prolific rushing team.

I'm not defending Schaub, but at the same time, yeah..... this team has issues!

This team has just as big problems in other phases of the game.

Textan
01-02-2013, 08:20 PM
In a nutshell; Schaub's not an all-star QB. Kubiak keeps trying the same magic even after our opponents have made adjustments/homework to those very same plays he keeps calling over and over again.
That gigantic plastic, laminated play card is just a prop in an effort to try and intimidate, but other teams know only five or so plays are ever used from it.

dalemurphy
01-02-2013, 08:42 PM
In a nutshell; Schaub's not an all-star QB. Kubiak keeps trying the same magic even after our opponents have made adjustments/homework to those very same plays he keeps calling over and over again.
That gigantic plastic, laminated play card is just a prop in an effort to try and intimidate, but other teams know only five or so plays are ever used from it.

Kubiak is not the quickest to change and adapt. He does, though. I think we are looking at a painful lesson this year and a quick exit from the playoffs. I believe Kubiak will assess the season and realize he failed to adjust after the Cushing injury and redirect the offense to an aggressive and attacking offense that used the pass to set up the run (2008, 2009 and 2010). Moving forward, he won't make that mistake again. Unfortunately, that doesn't help us this year. Fortunately, though, the team is set up for continued success and some of the pain we experienced this year will be addressed with personnel additions... We should have 11 or 12 draft picks and very little dead money eating away at our cap.

Though our head coach and QB are not elite, they are good and they are committed. Furthermore, we have a very good coaching staff and wealth of young talent, high character and committed players, an owner who wants to win, lots of draft picks, JJ Watt, Cushing, Joseph, ASmith, Quin, KJackson, DBrown, Foster, Tate, AJ, OD, Myers... We will have a good shot again next year. We are now one of the elite organizations and we are experiencing what they all experience most seasons. New England has gone how many years since they won a Superbowl?... with Tom Brady and Belichek in place. McNair's philosophy and willingness to stick with Kubiak and Smith after 2010 has paid off. We can expect to win double-digits again next year and playoff success will ultimately come down to variables like health, playoff matchups, and whether the team is peaking at the right time.

This season is not going to end well, but the team is positioned well and one disappointing finish should not be over-analyzed. Remember, the same head coach won the division and a playoff game with a 3rd string, rookie QB last season and threatened advancing to the AFC Championship game. It is not as though he has not shown the ability to win big games or get a lot out of limited talent in high pressure situations.

DX-TEX
01-02-2013, 08:56 PM
Its already been refuted .... Just put on your :tinfoil: and wait a decade or so.


Point blank , Bob Allen gave bad information. Just the media being the media trying to make a mountian out of a molehill .... Do you really believe Pey-Me-A-Ton would leave $10m on the table ?! (thats the difference between Schaub and Manning this year roughly.)


Never waste a controversy.

What I read was from a Denver Broncose beat writer, I just cant remember who but it wasnt Allen. I trust no Houston media types.

Corrosion
01-02-2013, 09:07 PM
What I read was from a Denver Broncose beat writer, I just cant remember who but it wasnt Allen. I trust no Houston media types.

Hearsay.


Unadmissible.


If it didnt come from the Texans brass ... or Pey-Me-A-Ton .... its worthless.

76Texan
01-02-2013, 09:27 PM
There was talk that Peyton would have taken less from Houston. It was the only spot he REALLY wanted to go to so he could stick it to Irsay twice a year. After we rejected him he moved on and the bidding commenced. None of this will ever be confirmed until after he retires Im sure.

Its already been refuted .... Just put on your :tinfoil: and wait a decade or so.


Point blank , Bob Allen gave bad information. Just the media being the media trying to make a mountian out of a molehill .... Do you really believe Pey-Me-A-Ton would leave $10m on the table ?! (thats the difference between Schaub and Manning this year roughly.)


Never waste a controversy.

What I read was from a Denver Broncose beat writer, I just cant remember who but it wasnt Allen. I trust no Houston media types.

So Payless got rejected by the Texans even though he offered himself for cheap.
He then sign with the Broncos for beaucoup money; then he goes on and spill it all to a Broncos beat writer. You know, the Texans could have me for less. I didn't entertain a single offer. I was saving my cherry just for them, but they sent Schaub to chase me away. Next thing I know I'm in Denver with a big check in my hand. You know I don't care for it; the Texans could have had me for less.

Yeah, that sounds about right!
I know I can trust that beat writer better than Bob Allen; I don't even need to know who he is, as long as he's not affiliated with anybody from the Houston media.

Corrosion
01-02-2013, 10:40 PM
So Payless got rejected by the Texans even though he offered himself for cheap.
He then sign with the Broncos for beaucoup money; then he goes on and spill it all to a Broncos beat writer. You know, the Texans could have me for less. I didn't entertain a single offer. I was saving my cherry just for them, but they sent Schaub to chase me away. Next thing I know I'm in Denver with a big check in my hand. You know I don't care for it; the Texans could have had me for less.

Yeah, that sounds about right!
I know I can trust that beat writer better than Bob Allen; I don't even need to know who he is, as long as he's not affiliated with anybody from the Houston media.

:vincepalm:


One of these days , you'll all know the absolute truth.


I need some absolute vodka in the mean time. Man I hate Vodka and Russians about as much as Reagan did.

:shots:

TejasTom
01-03-2013, 01:06 AM
Kubiak is not the quickest to change and adapt...

Snails slowing down for speed bumps pass him.

Textan
01-03-2013, 03:46 AM
Kubiak is not the quickest to change and adapt. He does, though. I think we are looking at a painful lesson this year and a quick exit from the playoffs. I believe Kubiak will assess the season and realize he failed to adjust after the Cushing injury and redirect the offense to an aggressive and attacking offense that used the pass to set up the run (2008, 2009 and 2010). Moving forward, he won't make that mistake again. Unfortunately, that doesn't help us this year. Fortunately, though, the team is set up for continued success and some of the pain we experienced this year will be addressed with personnel additions... We should have 11 or 12 draft picks and very little dead money eating away at our cap.

Though our head coach and QB are not elite, they are good and they are committed. Furthermore, we have a very good coaching staff and wealth of young talent, high character and committed players, an owner who wants to win, lots of draft picks, JJ Watt, Cushing, Joseph, ASmith, Quin, KJackson, DBrown, Foster, Tate, AJ, OD, Myers... We will have a good shot again next year. We are now one of the elite organizations and we are experiencing what they all experience most seasons. New England has gone how many years since they won a Superbowl?... with Tom Brady and Belichek in place. McNair's philosophy and willingness to stick with Kubiak and Smith after 2010 has paid off. We can expect to win double-digits again next year and playoff success will ultimately come down to variables like health, playoff matchups, and whether the team is peaking at the right time.

This season is not going to end well, but the team is positioned well and one disappointing finish should not be over-analyzed. Remember, the same head coach won the division and a playoff game with a 3rd string, rookie QB last season and threatened advancing to the AFC Championship game. It is not as though he has not shown the ability to win big games or get a lot out of limited talent in high pressure situations.

I appreciate your opinion, so please don't be offended by some of my counter-arguments.
Coaches and players study film. They do it excessively, hours on end. To me a coach who can't see the writing on the wall after one game, maybe two at the most, is living in a state of denial I'd hate to witness, but I guess I am while watching these games. If this is indeed the case "Kubiak" failed the team and the fans.
I'm sure you know the definition of insanity, well Kubiak's coaching this year is a perfect example.
Sure, I can see why he'd try the same scheme maybe a game or two, but this is freaking ridiculous.
To me Kubiak's ability to lead a team Captained by a 3rd string QB as far as he did last year, and this monumental collapse this year "barring some incredible heroics these coming weeks" tells me he's digressed as a coach, not learned or moved forward.
Seriously, how stubborn do you have to be?
And, I'm a conservative for the most part, but Kubiak's giving that ideology a bad name lately.
Schaub, Schaub is decent when no pressure threatens his comfort zone. I was once comfortable saying that, but seeing him under-throw, or just plain miss wide open receivers lately has me questioning even his ability to do that.
He can't scramble, improvise, or just basically run at greater than a Sloth's pace.
I see this team going nowhere anytime soon with Schaub at the helm. Again, unless some unforeseen Schaub rears his head these coming weeks, he will have been outplayed by a 3rd string QB with zilch experience.
How can you over-analyze something so horribly wrong as this teams monumental collapse?

TheMatrix31
01-03-2013, 04:05 AM
lol @ people acting like we gave Schaub an extension just because of one game.

Yeah, I'm really sure they drew up that deal in the 15 minutes from the end of the game to when it was announced, bro. And I'm REALLY sure it was just because of that one game. Yeah, okay.

Jiminy Christmas.

thunderkyss
01-03-2013, 06:52 AM
Kubiak is not the quickest to change and adapt. He does, though. I think we are looking at a painful lesson this year and a quick exit from the playoffs. I believe Kubiak will assess the season and realize he failed to adjust after the Cushing injury and redirect the offense to an aggressive and attacking offense that used the pass to set up the run (2008, 2009 and 2010).

I think we would like to pin Kubiak into a corner where being "aggressive" is the only answer. But I don't think he looks at it as being aggressive/conservative. He puts his best plays in the game & it's up to his players to execute.

You know that every play has multiple receivers, usually there's a deep, intermediate, short/checkdown. If Matt is going to his check down, or continually checking to a run play, we look at that & call it "conservative" & blame Kubiak. When it may be a Matt Schaub "confidence" issue.

Kubiak didn't call a 4 yard dump off to Andre on 3rd & a mile.

Even the third & long draws... Kubiak straight up said that one in particular a play was called to get Casey wide open, but Schaub didn't like what he saw & checked to a run. He said he tried to get that play in 3 times, we only saw it once. The other two times, Schaub checked out.

GuerillaBlack
01-03-2013, 06:54 AM
lol @ people acting like we gave Schaub an extension just because of one game.

Yeah, I'm really sure they drew up that deal in the 15 minutes from the end of the game to when it was announced, bro. And I'm REALLY sure it was just because of that one game. Yeah, okay.

Jiminy Christmas.

Well obviously it wasn't written in 15 minutes. Everyone knows that. The problem is the Texans giving him the deal after one game, as if one good game was all they needed to see in order to give him the deal. His injury (and past injuries) be damned. Schaub is an elite QB after this one game. We don't need to see him string together a couple of performances first.

Mr teX
01-03-2013, 08:16 AM
Well obviously it wasn't written in 15 minutes. Everyone knows that. The problem is the Texans giving him the deal after one game, as if one good game was all they needed to see in order to give him the deal. His injury (and past injuries) be damned. Schaub is an elite QB after this one game. We don't need to see him string together a couple of performances first.

Then the 1 game had zero effect...In all likelihood is that the contract was being drawn up before he even played that 1 game everyone is talking about...meaning it was going to happen regardless.

TexanSam
01-03-2013, 08:23 AM
Yep. Immediately after the game it was tweeted by various Houston sports media yayhoos that Rick and Bob gave Matt a new deal.

I mean, talk about premature ejaculation of cash and contract terms!

Sheesh, what a frigging dumb thing to do. It's as if they did that to quash the whole Peyton Manning situation whereby Kubiak told Matt (jokingly) to go get Manning at the airport. Yeah, he has a great game in Game 1 of a 16-game season and by gawd! let's get this awesome QB locked up.

"Look! LOOK! We got us a great QB too! We're juuuuust fine here in Houston!"

Reeks of P.R. move, to me. But hell, we were so high on our own fumes that we couldn't see it for that. Look back on it now, though.

You don't really believe that they just magically worked out a $24 million contract after one game, do you?

76Texan
01-03-2013, 08:40 AM
Well obviously it wasn't written in 15 minutes. Everyone knows that. The problem is the Texans giving him the deal after one game, as if one good game was all they needed to see in order to give him the deal. His injury (and past injuries) be damned. Schaub is an elite QB after this one game. We don't need to see him string together a couple of performances first.

Would it make you feel better if they had waited for two games, three games, or four games. It would have been the same anyway.

If I remember correctly, the Texans don't talk contract during the season.
Seems perfectly clear to me that they were just wrapping things up there with Schaub's agent.

playa465
01-03-2013, 08:55 AM
Well obviously it wasn't written in 15 minutes. Everyone knows that. The problem is the Texans giving him the deal after one game, as if one good game was all they needed to see in order to give him the deal. His injury (and past injuries) be damned. Schaub is an elite QB after this one game. We don't need to see him string together a couple of performances first.

I think he means that the contract workings had been going on a while prior to the game. The media put that idea out there that the Texans would probably wait til after the season possibly due to the injury. I'm sure Matt was identified as part of the core group the Texans wanted to build around so they got it done. He was compensated based on what he had proven to the organization and what they think he could do in the future. The fact that it took place after the first game means what? That the Texans wanted to see him post injury? I think they took care of that by only guaranteeing 2yrs of the contact and the signing bonus. I know he's been playing like poo, but let's see how he does in his first playoffs.

dalemurphy
01-03-2013, 08:59 AM
I appreciate your opinion, so please don't be offended by some of my counter-arguments.
Coaches and players study film. They do it excessively, hours on end. To me a coach who can't see the writing on the wall after one game, maybe two at the most, is living in a state of denial I'd hate to witness, but I guess I am while watching these games. If this is indeed the case "Kubiak" failed the team and the fans.
I'm sure you know the definition of insanity, well Kubiak's coaching this year is a perfect example.
Sure, I can see why he'd try the same scheme maybe a game or two, but this is freaking ridiculous.
To me Kubiak's ability to lead a team Captained by a 3rd string QB as far as he did last year, and this monumental collapse this year "barring some incredible heroics these coming weeks" tells me he's digressed as a coach, not learned or moved forward.
Seriously, how stubborn do you have to be?
And, I'm a conservative for the most part, but Kubiak's giving that ideology a bad name lately.
Schaub, Schaub is decent when no pressure threatens his comfort zone. I was once comfortable saying that, but seeing him under-throw, or just plain miss wide open receivers lately has me questioning even his ability to do that.
He can't scramble, improvise, or just basically run at greater than a Sloth's pace.
I see this team going nowhere anytime soon with Schaub at the helm. Again, unless some unforeseen Schaub rears his head these coming weeks, he will have been outplayed by a 3rd string QB with zilch experience.
How can you over-analyze something so horribly wrong as this teams monumental collapse?

I would argue that the overanalysis would be that the team's struggles in December this year means that Kubiak and Schaub are overall failures. I disagree. Kubiak was very successful last year during this time of the year. You think he's regressed. I simply think a set of variables arrived that he struggled to respond to well this winter. Last year, he handled more difficult situations much better. Next year, I think it is likely this late season failure won't repeat.

ObsiWan
01-03-2013, 09:04 AM
And Kubiak was pretty damn pissed after that one. Face red and was most likely cussing up a storm. I can only imagine what he was saying. Schaub set his feet and launched that. With the way he threw it, I felt that we were about to get a big reception for a TD. Instead, it was an INT.

I was wondering if I was the only one who saw that. And he was like that during the Vikings game too. He ain't happy with what he's been getting out of Schaub.

We know that Kubiak won't throw his guys under the bus in public and in the press but you have to know the post-game review between he and Schaub was ..."testy".

A lot of you have said he and Schaub are "joined at the hip"; and that is definitely true. But I'm beginning to wonder if some sort of separation surgery is on the horizon. Not this year obviously, but I will be watching the draft and free agency with great interest to see who, if anyone, gets brought in to challenge Schaub for his job in 2014. If the S.S. Schaub is sinking - meaning he continues to slump in this upcoming playoff game - I'd bet good money that Kubiak won't go down with that ship in the coming seasons.

thunderkyss
01-03-2013, 09:10 AM
Would it make you feel better if they had waited for two games, three games, or four games. It would have been the same anyway.



I originally thought all this Schaub bashing was knee-jerk. But it continues today. Schaub's been having an excellent year, throwing for 4000 yards even though we led in most of our games.

The guy's not perfect. He's got flaws & we've talked about these flaws before. Last year, at this time, we were wishing we had a healthy Matt Schaub.

I know the "popular" opinion is to say he's not the same after his injury, but I'm not seeing it. He's the same guy he's always been & who he's always been was a guy that could get us deep into the play-offs.

He's not underthrowing guys because of his foot. After he underthrew Casey, he overthrew everyone else, including Andre, in the same game.

Some people are panicking, because they lost faith. I get that. However, I've never been a "Schaub guy" so I can say with complete honesty. If you ever thought Matt Schaub could get us to the Super Bowl..... nothing should have changed.

He underthrew Casey... he usually doesn't hit guys in stride. Big Whup. He never has, yet he usually finds a way to get his team into the red zone & they usually walk away with a TD.

He's lost some of his mojo. I don't know why. But I think these high character guys they built this team around, these professionals will find a way to get it done.

We're not going to be one & done & an AFC Championship game is the low bar.

Mr teX
01-03-2013, 09:11 AM
I would argue that the overanalysis would be that the team's struggles in December this year means that Kubiak and Schaub are overall failures. I disagree. Kubiak was very successful last year during this time of the year. You think he's regressed. I simply think a set of variables arrived that he struggled to respond to well this winter. Last year, he handled more difficult situations much better. Next year, I think it is likely this late season failure won't repeat.

Don't count on it Dale...short of drastic changes in the way that he calls plays or talent, he doesn't seem to really adjust until it's too late. We've seen the same issues scheme wise since 2009 when the Cowboys and Giants came to town and thoroughly dominated us in much the same fashion we have been dominated in these last 4 games.

From game to game, he simply refuses to abandon the run or go away from it enough on a temporary basis when it's not working....until it's too late that is...By then, the defense knows that you need to pass to get back in the game & they either go into dime/nickel packages to make it more difficult for you to pass...or they pin their ears back & get after you. Sometimes, you have to step out of your comfort zone to break tendencies.....Kubiak does it, but he does it too late and we almost never come out on top b/c of it...This season more than any other has shown me this.

ObsiWan
01-03-2013, 09:13 AM
I think we would like to pin Kubiak into a corner where being "aggressive" is the only answer. But I don't think he looks at it as being aggressive/conservative. He puts his best plays in the game & it's up to his players to execute.
It's like we hear in all those NFL films shots on the Patriots sidelines where Belichick is yelling at his players...
DO.
YOUR.
JOB!!

You know that every play has multiple receivers, usually there's a deep, intermediate, short/checkdown. If Matt is going to his check down, or continually checking to a run play, we look at that & call it "conservative" & blame Kubiak. When it may be a Matt Schaub "confidence" issue.

Kubiak didn't call a 4 yard dump off to Andre on 3rd & a mile.

Even the third & long draws... Kubiak straight up said that one in particular a play was called to get Casey wide open, but Schaub didn't like what he saw & checked to a run. He said he tried to get that play in 3 times, we only saw it once. The other two times, Schaub checked out.

So it's Schaub that's over conservative, more so than Kubiak. Makes one wonder, just how much leeway to change the play Schaub really DOES have but doesn't have the confidence to go all out and take the higher risk/higher reward option.

If this keeps up, a Kubiak/Schaub divorce could be in the future.

thunderkyss
01-03-2013, 09:29 AM
So it's Schaub that's over conservative, more so than Kubiak. Makes one wonder, just how much leeway to change the play Schaub really DOES have but doesn't have the confidence to go all out and take the higher risk/higher reward option.

If this keeps up, a Kubiak/Schaub divorce could be in the future.

I think it's a matter of Matt being able to turn it on & off at will.

I think about a guy like Jake Plummer. That guy was a gunslinger & Kubiak/Shanahan had to put chains on him to real him in. But he could turn it on naturally, because that was truly his nature.

I think Schaub is 10x smarter (cautious) than Jake. But it isn't his personality to push. Jake would throw first then think about it. Matt thinks, then throws...... looks slower & I think that's what has hurt us more than anything.

He needs to learn to trust what he sees & stop thinking so much, but being he's a 10 year vet, it probably isn't going to happen.

But there isn't going to be a divorce of any kind. Kubiak is happy with what he's got. We've won a lot of games with Schaub.. including a game against New England, a game against GreenBay..... we didn't beat them this year & people are just over reacting.

CloakNNNdagger
01-03-2013, 09:41 AM
He's not underthrowing guys because of his foot. After he underthrew Casey, he overthrew everyone else, including Andre, in the same game.



Not so fast. Anyone who has ever played or coached QBs would tell you, not having a "healthy" back foot goes to overall ACCURACY...........BOTH as pertains to the tendency to underthrow AS WELL as to overthrow, due to the variability of the pressure/stress he is able or willing to apply to that back foot.

thunderkyss
01-03-2013, 11:33 AM
Not so fast. Anyone who has ever played or coached QBs would tell you, not having a "healthy" back foot goes to overall ACCURACY...........BOTH as pertains to the tendency to underthrow AS WELL as to overthrow, due to the variability of the pressure/stress he is able or willing to apply to that back foot.

What I'm saying is that he's never been particularly accurate on his deep throws. I've been complaining about that well before his LisFranc.

Yes, people can point to a throw here or there to "demonstrate" his accuracy, & they are there, I'm not saying they aren't. But they are far & between.

'cak found an article one time (or referenced a radio show) where Matt admits he underthrows on purpose.

Matt looks good to me (health wise). As good as he ever has.

Whatever issue he is having, I don't think it's physical.

steelbtexan
01-03-2013, 11:34 AM
I would argue that the overanalysis would be that the team's struggles in December this year means that Kubiak and Schaub are overall failures. I disagree. Kubiak was very successful last year during this time of the year. You think he's regressed. I simply think a set of variables arrived that he struggled to respond to well this winter. Last year, he handled more difficult situations much better. Next year, I think it is likely this late season failure won't repeat.

Gary is and has been playing it very conservative since the Rosencopter debacle. That one play ruined Gary as a HC.

That said, Gary has been playing the entire yr masking OL problems and Shaubs foot injury that doesn't allow Shaub to be the type of QB Gary would like to have. Unfortunately with a limited playbook defenses have caught on to how Gary has been covering for Schaub.

They've got to find a QB in this yrs draft and let him sit behind Schaub and learn next yr so that the new QB will be ready for the 2014 season. If you're of this mindset Then the Texans should use this yrs draft to shore up the offense and gain the young OL/WR's and QB experience. Then in the 2014 draft draft defense because rookie LB's/DL can come in and contribute more quickly. That is if you dont believe Shaub is the QB to win the Texans a SB.

BTW, with the injuries/holes on this team, I think Gary has done his best job of coaching this yr more than any other yr. To win 12 games with those players is simply amazing and believe me I'm no fan of Garys coaching ability.

steelbtexan
01-03-2013, 11:39 AM
What I'm saying is that he's never been particularly accurate on his deep throws. I've been complaining about that well before his LisFranc.

Yes, people can point to a throw here or there to "demonstrate" his accuracy, & they are there, I'm not saying they aren't. But they are far & between.

'cak found an article one time (or referenced a radio show) where Matt admits he underthrows on purpose.

Matt looks good to me (health wise). As good as he ever has.

Whatever issue he is having, I don't think it's physical.

Look at the types of plays Gary has been calling, then if you go back and look at the plays Gary called during the 2009 sason. I think you will see the difference. Schaubs injury has tied Garys hands this season. IMHO

thunderkyss
01-03-2013, 11:44 AM
Look at the types of plays Gary has been calling, then if you go back and look at the plays Gary called during the 2009 sason. I think you will see the difference. Schaubs injury has tied Garys hands this season. IMHO

He completed 66% of his passes for 275 yards while he looked like scht???

I'm good with that. His hands are tied....... whatever. He found Andre 12 times for 145 yards.

whoops....

steelbtexan
01-03-2013, 11:48 AM
He completed 66% of his passes for 275 yards while he looked like scht???

I'm good with that. His hands are tied....... whatever. He found Andre 12 times for 145 yards.

whoops....

Great stats, but if you watched the game would you say Schaub looked Good/bad/terrible overall. Those stats lie.

GP
01-03-2013, 11:55 AM
Great stats, but if you watched the game would you say Schaub looked Good/bad/terrible overall. Those stats lie.

Funny how he left off the two interceptions and all the sacks that killed about 4 drives (or more).

Yeah, but damn almighty! He got Andre that ball for hella' yards!

Some people get sentimental about this stuff, but it's either win or lose with players and teams in the NFL. You're either helping or you're hurting. And Schaub has been hurting this team, and his coach Gary Kubiak is a big reason for that, as well.

I'd say that Gary has even significantly retarded or stunted Schaubs growth. Schaub is wanting to please that guy so badly, and here Kubiak is...a coach who won't let Matt make pass play adjustments based on potential mismatches. Nope, run the pass play called or switch to a run ONLY.

How can you operate like that in today's NFL? It's so frustrating. I would understand if Matt was a rookie, but the guy is multiple years not only into the NFL itself but then multiple years into Gary's offense.

It's catching up with Gary Kubiak.

Mr teX
01-03-2013, 12:05 PM
Look at the types of plays Gary has been calling, then if you go back and look at the plays Gary called during the 2009 sason. I think you will see the difference. Schaubs injury has tied Garys hands this season. IMHO

I don't think it's schaub's injury so much as it is him falling too in love with Arian and the running game and him knowing that they were most likely going to have a few OL issues with the whole right side of the line shipped off...Then you factor in he's now got a defense to rely on...Those things on their own are enough to curtail any aggressiveness.

i think the only thing he couldn't have anticipated was how much Tate's injury would hurt us as he seemed a little PO'ed about Tate's inability to get on the field earlier this year....and noone in the WR core outside of AJ really stepping up and taking over for Jacoby.

thunderkyss
01-03-2013, 12:27 PM
Great stats, but if you watched the game would you say Schaub looked Good/bad/terrible overall. Those stats lie.

That's what I'm saying. He looked as good as he ever has. They're not lying here.

I started another thread here titled, "They don't know" the gist was that the Texans look like they are getting frustrated because they don't know what's wrong, otherwise they would have fixed it.

I've watched this game three times now & If I were the Texans, I would have thought everything was going our way. Sure we got down early. But we fought our way back into it & we took the lead playing Gary-ball.

They were probably feeling pretty good, that things were going the way they planned.

Then they lost the game.

I think things are trending up. We'll probably blow the Bengals out & most people will think it came out of nowhere. That the Texans flipped a switch. But it started in this game.

thunderkyss
01-03-2013, 12:29 PM
Some people get sentimental about this stuff, but it's either win or lose with players and teams in the NFL. You're either helping or you're hurting. And Schaub has been hurting this team, and his coach Gary Kubiak is a big reason for that, as well.


If we're going there & the only thing that matters is the Ws & Ls..... we're 12-4. Schaub has helped this team more than he's hurt it.


I also addressed the 2 ints in another post.

& My post is about how Matt is playing in relation to his foot injury. He doesn't look slowed by it.

76Texan
01-03-2013, 06:47 PM
The Int to AJ was just a mis-communication between receiver and QB.
AJ released to the outside but then cut back to the inside; by then the ball was already gone.

Of all the sacks, there might be one that you can put on Schaub.
He was sacked around the 3-sec mark when he tried to escape up the middle.
The end man who got around Newton caught up to him from behind and barely got to Schaub.

I would have liked for him to keep his feet chopping there in the pocket though; it would help him move quicker.

Textan
01-03-2013, 07:45 PM
I would argue that the overanalysis would be that the team's struggles in December this year means that Kubiak and Schaub are overall failures. I disagree. Kubiak was very successful last year during this time of the year. You think he's regressed. I simply think a set of variables arrived that he struggled to respond to well this winter. Last year, he handled more difficult situations much better. Next year, I think it is likely this late season failure won't repeat.
Respectfully, last year was last year. Kubiak's inability or unwillingness to see and adapt THIS YEAR tells me he has indeed digressed as a coach. To have a team implode the way these Texans have THIS YEAR is a monumental failure. Sure, some blame should be placed on these players. But overall I believe it it Kubiak's fault for not changing or refusing to change, adapt, see what other teams were doing to his team. His play calling became overly predictable, IMO, so much so the once potent offense has become futile. When you have TV announcers making observations about the funk this team was in, and their inability to score a TD for so and so quarters, something's terribly wrong.
The holes weren't there anymore for Foster. When Schaub the Sloth dropped back in the pocket that pocket collapsed almost immediately, and we know how bad Schaub is under pressure.
To me that says defenses know what's going to be called beforehand, because, BECAUSE Kubiak's play calling is almost the same every damn game.
I don't hate Kubiak. I believe he's an outstanding man with good principles.
I don't hate Schaub either.
But, I'm extremely frustrated at what appears to be a wasted season on a learning lesson. A lesson most competent HC's would have recognized many games back.

dalemurphy
01-03-2013, 08:47 PM
Respectfully, last year was last year. Kubiak's inability or unwillingness to see and adapt THIS YEAR tells me he has indeed digressed as a coach. To have a team implode the way these Texans have THIS YEAR is a monumental failure. Sure, some blame should be placed on these players. But overall I believe it it Kubiak's fault for not changing or refusing to change, adapt, see what other teams were doing to his team. His play calling became overly predictable, IMO, so much so the once potent offense has become futile. When you have TV announcers making observations about the funk this team was in, and their inability to score a TD for so and so quarters, something's terribly wrong.
The holes weren't there anymore for Foster. When Schaub the Sloth dropped back in the pocket that pocket collapsed almost immediately, and we know how bad Schaub is under pressure.
To me that says defenses know what's going to be called beforehand, because, BECAUSE Kubiak's play calling is almost the same every damn game.
I don't hate Kubiak. I believe he's an outstanding man with good principles.
I don't hate Schaub either.
But, I'm extremely frustrated at what appears to be a wasted season on a learning lesson. A lesson most competent HC's would have recognized many games back.

You mention the predictability... While that may be a problem, I think something else is going on that I have noticed in the Packer Game and 1st Indy game, particularly. You are correct that defenses have sometimes seem to know what the play was at the snap and correctly commit to it. GB seemed to identify when we were running the stretch and when we were running play action off of it very early. Also, Freeney and Mathis seemed, on a couple plays, seemed to know we were passing despite the play-action.

I think that one of the offensive linemen (likely Newton or Jones) is tipping the defense. I haven't researched it but I'm fairly certain that is a big problem we are dealing with. I'd love to hear if others have noticed anything.

powda
01-03-2013, 09:17 PM
Respectfully, last year was last year. Kubiak's inability or unwillingness to see and adapt THIS YEAR tells me he has indeed digressed as a coach. To have a team implode the way these Texans have THIS YEAR is a monumental failure. Sure, some blame should be placed on these players. But overall I believe it it Kubiak's fault for not changing or refusing to change, adapt, see what other teams were doing to his team. His play calling became overly predictable, IMO, so much so the once potent offense has become futile. When you have TV announcers making observations about the funk this team was in, and their inability to score a TD for so and so quarters, something's terribly wrong.
The holes weren't there anymore for Foster. When Schaub the Sloth dropped back in the pocket that pocket collapsed almost immediately, and we know how bad Schaub is under pressure.
To me that says defenses know what's going to be called beforehand, because, BECAUSE Kubiak's play calling is almost the same every damn game.
I don't hate Kubiak. I believe he's an outstanding man with good principles.
I don't hate Schaub either.
But, I'm extremely frustrated at what appears to be a wasted season on a learning lesson. A lesson most competent HC's would have recognized many games back.

Msr.

Being a great coach...or just an average coach includes adapting on the fly. I've seen our defense do it at times...Kubiak and the offense? Not so much.

infantrycak
01-03-2013, 09:21 PM
You mention the predictability... While that may be a problem, I think something else is going on that I have noticed in the Packer Game and 1st Indy game, particularly. You are correct that defenses have sometimes seem to know what the play was at the snap and correctly commit to it. GB seemed to identify when we were running the stretch and when we were running play action off of it very early. Also, Freeney and Mathis seemed, on a couple plays, seemed to know we were passing despite the play-action.

I think that one of the offensive linemen (likely Newton or Jones) is tipping the defense. I haven't researched it but I'm fairly certain that is a big problem we are dealing with. I'd love to hear if others have noticed anything.

I think the play calling predictability is a made up couch coaches BS critique when they start wanting to criticize a team.

Now your second point may be spot on. I haven't spotted it but I will give two examples.

#1 - For a time period Tony Dorsett only put his mouth piece in for running plays and teams were keying off on it until the Cowboys figured it out.

#2 - Can't remember which RT it was but Vinny came with me to a game (this was several years ago so not current crew) and spotted he was giving away run v. pass based on whether he elevated his heel on his outside foot when he set.

Little things having nothing to do with play calling or the QB can jack up an offense.

Rey
01-03-2013, 09:59 PM
Kubiak's offense is predictable at times, but no more than most other offenses. It's not like teams are lining up running crazy shyt every down. It's about execution. You know most teams want to run in short yardage...pass on 3rd and 4 or more....that's no secret...

I don't have an issue with Kubiak's playcalling for the most part. I think he has some bad moments, but I don't expect him to be perfect. I think execution is a bigger part of the failings than the actual plays being called.

Vinny
01-03-2013, 10:17 PM
I think we know what to expect when the Steelers play, we know Manning is going to throw the ball, we know what makes the Saints roll....most teams do a few things well and they do them over and over. I think when you lose it just seems redundant. When we were beating teams early in the season we weren't doing anything unexpected. I think what has happened is that we don't do enough things well and when good teams take away our strength we don't have much in the punch bowl to draw on.

CloakNNNdagger
01-03-2013, 10:18 PM
I think the play calling predictability is a made up couch coaches BS critique when they start wanting to criticize a team.

Now your second point may be spot on. I haven't spotted it but I will give two examples.

#1 - For a time period Tony Dorsett only put his mouth piece in for running plays and teams were keying off on it until the Cowboys figured it out.

#2 - Can't remember which RT it was but Vinny came with me to a game (this was several years ago so not current crew) and spotted he was giving away run v. pass based on whether he elevated his heel on his outside foot when he set.

Little things having nothing to do with play calling or the QB can jack up an offense.

Cak,

Do you remember us discussing when Vinny and I went to a game together and we both noticed that Duane Brown was giving away plays. I called into the Kubiak 610 radio show and pointed out that Brown was predictably giving away run vs pass by always taking the 2-point stance (upright) with every passing play and the hand down stance with every running play. Kubiak replied that he never noticed but would review game film. After that, the "habit" mysteriously disappeared.

76Texan
01-03-2013, 10:26 PM
Cak,

Do you remember us discussing when Vinny and I went to a game together and we both noticed that Duane Brown was giving away plays. I called into the Kubiak 610 radio show and pointed out that Brown was predictably giving away run vs pass by always taking the 2-point stance (upright) with every passing play and the hand down stance with every running play. Kubiak replied that he never noticed but would review game film. After that, the "habit" mysteriously disappeared.

I thought I debunked that myth already.

No, neither D. Brown nor Winston lined up in the same stance every single time.
There were times they lined up in A stance when the play goes either run or pass.
There were times they lined up in B stance when the play can go either way, just the same.

There was no telegraphing.

It just so happened that some of you folks saw only a handful of plays and came to quick conclusion.

Grungo_Taco
01-03-2013, 10:28 PM
Cak,

Do you remember us discussing when Vinny and I went to a game together and we both noticed that Duane Brown was giving away plays. I called into the Kubiak 610 radio show and pointed out that Brown was predictably giving away run vs pass by always taking the 2-point stance (upright) with every passing play and the hand down stance with every running play. Kubiak replied that he never noticed but would review game film. After that, the "habit" mysteriously disappeared.

Freaking Sick!! :clap:

CloakNNNdagger
01-03-2013, 10:31 PM
I thought I debunked that myth already.

No, neither D. Brown nor Winston lined up in the same stance every single time.
There were times they lined up in A stance when the play goes either run or pass.
There were times they lined up in B stance when the play can go either way, just the same.

There was no telegraphing.

It just so happened that some of you folks saw only a handful of plays and came to quick conclusion.

I'll let Vinny respond. The game we attended, we could call every single play with accuracy. I guess we were both psychic.:kitten:

Vinny
01-03-2013, 10:49 PM
I'll let Vinny respond. The game we attended, we could call every single play with accuracy. I guess we were both psychic.:kitten:76 has debunked the best of them with his tv game footage review.

powda
01-03-2013, 10:58 PM
Cak,

Do you remember us discussing when Vinny and I went to a game together and we both noticed that Duane Brown was giving away plays. I called into the Kubiak 610 radio show and pointed out that Brown was predictably giving away run vs pass by always taking the 2-point stance (upright) with every passing play and the hand down stance with every running play. Kubiak replied that he never noticed but would review game film. After that, the "habit" mysteriously disappeared.

Rep for making a contribution as a fan to the outcome on the field. Wish more fans who noticed things let the coaches know. They need all the help they can get right now.

steelbtexan
01-03-2013, 11:16 PM
I'll let Vinny respond. The game we attended, we could call every single play with accuracy. I guess we were both psychic.:kitten:

Psychic

I guess that explains some things, such as looking into the future and being able to tell Reed was going to reinjure his groin. (Ouch) LOL

steelbtexan
01-03-2013, 11:17 PM
76 has debunked the best of them with his tv game footage review.

Looking forward to more 76 still shots?

76Texan
01-03-2013, 11:23 PM
I'll let Vinny respond. The game we attended, we could call every single play with accuracy. I guess we were both psychic.:kitten:

You guys posted about this back then.

I was curious so I pulled up at least a couple of games worth of plays, looking specifically at how Brown and Winston were lining up and whether a pass or a run play ensued.

Whatever his name was (from an opponent) thought he found a key, but it wasn't true. If anything, he was mis-informed.

steelbtexan
01-03-2013, 11:28 PM
Rep for making a contribution as a fan to the outcome on the field. Wish more fans who noticed things let the coaches know. They need all the help they can get right now.

You mean like Schaub doesn't rool out to his left and deliver the ball accurately while on the move, or Newton struggles to seal the edge on the outside zone play?

powda
01-03-2013, 11:57 PM
Newton struggles to seal the edge on the outside zone play?

A for effort, but I think anyone whos seen the Texans recently got that one.(Uhhhh, I hope the coaches got the memo...)

klockWork
01-04-2013, 12:44 AM
Rep for making a contribution as a fan to the outcome on the field. Wish more fans who noticed things let the coaches know. They need all the help they can get right now.

Man, I hope this isn't all true. If the coaching staff truly did miss Brown habits and it really did took a couple of fans to bring this to attention and get it corrected then this franchise is in real trouble. I can't imagine what else they could have miss. This is a disturbing revelation if they did miss it.

thunderkyss
01-04-2013, 07:31 AM
I think what has happened is that we don't do enough things well and when good teams take away our strength we don't have much in the punch bowl to draw on.

Texans_Chick made a good point in her thread. Our WR catch ratio used to be much higher. There was a time when KDub, OD, Arian, & David Anderson caught everything you threw their way. There was a time when David Anderson was Schaub's favorite target on third downs. People covered Andre & OD.... Anderson caught everything thrown his way.

Heck, last year anytime Matt threw the ball, most of us thought it was most likely a catch, unless it went to one guy in particular. One guy out of 6-9 receiving options isn't bad especially when that one guy wasn't always on the field.

Now we've got three guys that it's 50/50 at best & the three of our big 4 aren't as reliable as they used to be (I think Andre has only dropped one, but KDub, OD, & Arian have really dropped off).

So, to go with your post. In the past, if we got off schedule, we could make up for it with regularity because of our receivers. Now... not so much.

thunderkyss
01-04-2013, 07:35 AM
Cak,

Do you remember us discussing when Vinny and I went to a game together and we both noticed that Duane Brown was giving away plays. I called into the Kubiak 610 radio show and pointed out that Brown was predictably giving away run vs pass by always taking the 2-point stance (upright) with every passing play and the hand down stance with every running play. Kubiak replied that he never noticed but would review game film. After that, the "habit" mysteriously disappeared.

I remember there was a stretch of games (when we got punk'd by the NFC East) that every time we motioned the TE to the LOS, it was a run to that side. Every time we motioned the TE split..... it was a pass play.

The NFC East shut down our running game & I believe that was why. Never got any confirmation. But every time the TE went into motion, I knew whether it was run or pass & if a run, I knew which way it was going.

thunderkyss
01-04-2013, 07:38 AM
Psychic

I guess that explains some things, such as looking into the future and being able to tell Reed was going to reinjure his groin. (Ouch) LOL

Again..... I don't know if reinjure is the word. He had a set back. He practiced that week as if he was going to play. They decided not to put him in on game day.

He will play this week.

Rey
01-04-2013, 07:43 AM
Again..... I don't know if reinjure is the word. He had a set back. He practiced that week as if he was going to play. They decided not to put him in on game day.

He will play this week.

He re injured his groin in a game.

steelbtexan
01-04-2013, 07:53 AM
He re injured his groin in a game.

Nevermind, sometimes I think Fiddler/Thunderkiss just likes to be argumentative.

I mean if he will argue Reed wasn't brought back early and reinjured his groin, he will never admit Schaub isn't 100%. Even though there's medical evidence to suggest otherwise. Not to mention that just about every player playing in the playoffs is playing with some sort of injury.

No, sure see Schaubs fully healthy, see how easy that was to end that discussion. Later in a few yrs we will found out the true facts.

Oh and Mario is the greatest despite the fact that he racked up his 10+ sacks against the vaunted OL's
Cleve- 1.5
Arz- 2
Hou-1
Mia- 1
Indy- 3
Stl-1
Jac-1

Despite being moved around to face the worst pass blocking OT/TE on each team. This is another case of putting up numbers against the dregs of the NFL and not producing against the elite teams. Another example of how numbers lie.

thunderkyss
01-04-2013, 08:00 AM
He re injured his groin in a game.

Again, we don't "know" that he re-injured it. I don't remember seeing him go down like he did when he injured it the first time.

Chances are he felt it tightening up on him & before it actually "reinjured" he told someone he felt it tightening up on him or something. & they pulled him to prevent him from reinjuring it.

He was practicing all week, expected to play last Sunday. Before the game they decided against it. He will play tomorrow.

This isn't like when Arian pulled a hammy, got in a game, pulled it again & had to sit out a couple more weeks.

Or when Andre did the same last year.

Mr teX
01-04-2013, 08:56 AM
Cak,

Do you remember us discussing when Vinny and I went to a game together and we both noticed that Duane Brown was giving away plays. I called into the Kubiak 610 radio show and pointed out that Brown was predictably giving away run vs pass by always taking the 2-point stance (upright) with every passing play and the hand down stance with every running play. Kubiak replied that he never noticed but would review game film. After that, the "habit" mysteriously disappeared.

if this is true, this in itself is a problem...how could you not notice things like this as a coaching staff?...especially when you're struggling as bad as we are...Everything has to be examined down to the smallest detail when you're in a rut like we've been.

76Texan
01-04-2013, 09:12 AM
Texans_Chick made a good point in her thread. Our WR catch ratio used to be much higher. There was a time when KDub, OD, Arian, & David Anderson caught everything you threw their way. There was a time when David Anderson was Schaub's favorite target on third downs. People covered Andre & OD.... Anderson caught everything thrown his way.

Heck, last year anytime Matt threw the ball, most of us thought it was most likely a catch, unless it went to one guy in particular. One guy out of 6-9 receiving options isn't bad especially when that one guy wasn't always on the field.

Now we've got three guys that it's 50/50 at best & the three of our big 4 aren't as reliable as they used to be (I think Andre has only dropped one, but KDub, OD, & Arian have really dropped off).



According to LLC Stats Inc. (Elias Sports Bureau), AJ had 6 drops, O.D. and Foster follow with 5 apiece, and KMart had 4.

(I'm kinda disappointed about KMart's drops.)

Rey
01-04-2013, 09:23 AM
Again, we don't "know" that he re-injured it. I don't remember seeing him go down like he did when he injured it the first time.


I think regardless of what word you want to use, the fact is he wasn't fully ready for action when he initially returned which was the main point.

disaacks3
01-04-2013, 09:25 AM
That was really good and perfectly echoes my thoughts. Since the Detroit game, I have felt we needed to start running more no huddle, make quicker passes, and better utilize the strengths of our team. Our offense line is struggling, so why in the hell are we running plays that take an eternity to setup?!? We are asking for Schaub to get killed.

We need to switch things up. Everyone knows we want to run the ball and control the clock. We have gotten far too predictable. Once our defense started regressing, the offense had to pick it up. They never have and here we are playing our worst football of the season.

The bolded is what I've been telling all the folks on campus that come to me asking "what's happened to the Texans!?" I'd really LOVE for them to come out in no huddle and minimize the Bengals chance to substitute and keep their rushers fresh.

76Texan
01-04-2013, 09:37 AM
if this is true, this in itself is a problem...how could you not notice things like this as a coaching staff?...especially when you're struggling as bad as we are...Everything has to be examined down to the smallest detail when you're in a rut like we've been.

I've already explained that this is not true.

(Pulling up the archive, you can see that Vinny, CNND, and others talked about this, with reference to Quentin Groves - a Jags player - in 2009 who was quoted as he saw D. Brown telegraphing play.)

I just went back to that game in Dec, week 13.

The first 3 play, Brown was in a 2-pt stance, the Texans went with the pass 3 times.
The next 2 plays, Brown was in a 3-pt stance, the Texans also went with the pass both times.

Groves was just shooting his mouth off.

CloakNNNdagger
01-04-2013, 01:54 PM
Again..... I don't know if reinjure is the word. He had a set back. He practiced that week as if he was going to play. They decided not to put him in on game day.

He will play this week.


He re injured his groin in a game.


Again, we don't "know" that he re-injured it. I don't remember seeing him go down like he did when he injured it the first time.
Chances are he felt it tightening up on him & before it actually "reinjured" he told someone he felt it tightening up on him or something. & they pulled him to prevent him from reinjuring it.
He was practicing all week, expected to play last Sunday. Before the game they decided against it. He will play tomorrow.
This isn't like when Arian pulled a hammy, got in a game, pulled it again & had to sit out a couple more weeks.
Or when Andre did the same last year.

Fiddler, if you were my surgical resident, I would be seriously suggesting that you consider going back to medical school. After his multi-week absence, Reed never once participated in a FULL practice before being thrown out there in the game again. He then was smartly not activated last game. Since his initial “return” he has not participated in a FULL practice (contact OR non-contact) to date. A “tightening” of a muscle group is basically like having a short-lasting mild cramp. At best, it benefits by a short rest and gentle stretching. MAYBE if you want to return, you place a light spandex-like compression garment over the area mostly to keep it warm. It does not require extensive wrapping. When you see a player come off the field, and a massive tight full-thigh 6 inch Ace wrap is applied, and he remains on the bench, that wrap is on there because muscle has torn and you are trying to minimize any bleeding into the tissues as well as trying to control any resultant swelling. As I’ve said before, and specifically with Reed after this severe adductor muscle groin tear (which is a much more potentially chronic hard-to-heal muscle injury than even a hamstring), practice (even “contact”) does not in any way, shape or form simulate real-time game stresses. He shouldn’t have been allowed to play in the last game he participated in. And if this were simply a “tightening”, he would have participated in the last Colts game. In lieu of still no full practice participation this week, when it’s all said and done, whatever the actual game outcome concerning his groin, if he is allowed to play this week, it will serve to put him at a significant risk for further re-injury.......and could very well be a last desperation move on the part of both him and the Texans, each fearing that this game could be the Texans’ last.

76Texan
01-04-2013, 02:04 PM
I remember there was a stretch of games (when we got punk'd by the NFC East) that every time we motioned the TE to the LOS, it was a run to that side. Every time we motioned the TE split..... it was a pass play.

The NFC East shut down our running game & I believe that was why. Never got any confirmation. But every time the TE went into motion, I knew whether it was run or pass & if a run, I knew which way it was going.

I didn't see this post until now, LOL; I thought debunked that myth as well not too long after TK mentioned it.

There was no tendency with our motion to indicate whether the play was going to be a run or a pass.

CloakNNNdagger
01-04-2013, 02:29 PM
I've already explained that this is not true.

(Pulling up the archive, you can see that Vinny, CNND, and others talked about this, with reference to Quentin Groves - a Jags player - in 2009 who was quoted as he saw D. Brown telegraphing play.)

I just went back to that game in Dec, week 13.

The first 3 play, Brown was in a 2-pt stance, the Texans went with the pass 3 times.
The next 2 plays, Brown was in a 3-pt stance, the Texans also went with the pass both times.

Groves was just shooting his mouth off.

You are over a year too late.

This was posted on 12/07/09 by Vinny in response to the Quentin Groves observation thread. It refers to my post of our observation made on a date more than 1 year prior (10/12/08)........way before and independent of any statements on the subject by Quentin Groves. The next day is when I spoke to Kubiak. The games thereafter were immediately and completely devoid of the pattern.


http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1021852&highlight=duane+brown%2C+sets#post1021852 10-12-2008


Just got back from the game. That's what I have to call it.

There were 2 interceptions, 4 non-interceptions that no one caught but should have been (by the Phins), and that last long catch be AJ should have been an interception (but only because of his shear strength took the ball from the defender).

Coach decisions to go for 2 extra points..........should have been called after the 1st touchdown.............and when finally called at the end of the game as an after thought.

Time management?...........I'd say take away Kubiak's analog watch and let him have a dummy digital one.............oh, excuse me, he already has one on the scoreboard.

DURING THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME, VINNY POINTED OUT THAT IT APPEARED THAT DUANE BROWN WAS TELEGRAPHING OUT PLAYS. I SPENT THE REST OF THE GAME TABBING HIS OBSERVATION........AND IT'S A DEFINITE. APPROXIMATELY 90% OF THE TIME, IF BROWN TOOK A FULL CROUCH POSITION, IT WAS RUN...............IF BROWN TOOK A SEMI-CROUCH/SEMI-UPRIGHT POSITION, IT WAS A PASS. SOMEONE NEEDS TO RELATE THIS TO THE COACHES.

BTW, Gibbs on the sideline was so animated (pissed) most of the game, that he reminded me of a Joe Pesce understudy.

Yes, we won the game. But the excitement was definitely manufactured.

76Texan
01-04-2013, 02:47 PM
You are over a year too late.

This was posted on 12/07/09 by Vinny in response to the Quentin Groves observation thread. It refers to my post of our observation made on a date more than 1 year prior (10/12/08)........way before and independent of any statements on the subject by Quentin Groves. The next day is when I spoke to Kubiak. The games thereafter were immediately and completely devoid of the pattern.

OK, so I open the Colts game in week 5 on 10/5/08 with Rosenfels at the helm, and what did I see?

First offensive play, Texans in straight I.
Brown in a 2-pt stance and we ran the ball.
Any more question?

Want me to take some screen shots?

CloakNNNdagger
01-04-2013, 03:44 PM
OK, so I open the Colts game in week 5 on 10/5/08 with Rosenfels at the helm, and what did I see?

First offensive play, Texans in straight I.
Brown in a 2-pt stance and we ran the ball.
Any more question?

Want me to take some screen shots?

Sorry, but I didn't have any questions to begin with. Vinny and I were at the 10/12/08 Miami game. I reported exactly what we saw. It was valid then. It is valid now. I'm out of this "discussion," thank you.

thunderkyss
01-04-2013, 03:52 PM
Sorry, but I didn't have any questions to begin with. Vinny and I were at the 10/12/08 Miami game. I reported exactly what we saw. It was valid then. It is valid now. I'm out of this "discussion," thank you.

Your counting the snaps & forming your own opinion doesn't count.

76Texan
01-04-2013, 04:39 PM
Sorry, but I didn't have any questions to begin with. Vinny and I were at the 10/12/08 Miami game. I reported exactly what we saw. It was valid then. It is valid now. I'm out of this "discussion," thank you.

Doc, you know I only have respect for you.

But eyes can, and do deceive us often.

I went ahead and took all the screen shots in the first quarter of the Colts game and the whole half of the Dolphins games.

The Colts game showed that there were no tendency, whatsoever.

In the Dolphins game, I can see why you guys "thought" there was a tendency.
However, it was far from an absolute tendency.

It is true that in the first half, many many plays went as you described; but there were 6 plays that bucked the trend.

Also, there were plays when we were in empty backfield; those, for sure, are pass plays (I don't think we set up running play for Schaub maybe once in a blue moon, LOL.)

So, even though there was somewhat of a tendency, the Dolphins can only guess since we never showed that tendency in the previous game against the Colts.

I don't think I need to post the screen shots, but if I have time, I may just upload them onto photobucket some day.

dalemurphy
01-05-2013, 02:32 PM
Doc, you know I only have respect for you.

But eyes can, and do deceive us often.

I went ahead and took all the screen shots in the first quarter of the Colts game and the whole half of the Dolphins games.

The Colts game showed that there were no tendency, whatsoever.

In the Dolphins game, I can see why you guys "thought" there was a tendency.
However, it was far from an absolute tendency.

It is true that in the first half, many many plays went as you described; but there were 6 plays that bucked the trend.

Also, there were plays when we were in empty backfield; those, for sure, are pass plays (I don't think we set up running play for Schaub maybe once in a blue moon, LOL.)

So, even though there was somewhat of a tendency, the Dolphins can only guess since we never showed that tendency in the previous game against the Colts.

I don't think I need to post the screen shots, but if I have time, I may just upload them onto photobucket some day.

I'll never forget the 1st year that Marty Schottenheimer was an analyst for ESPN. More than once, he would take the audience through coaches tape and pinpoint something slight from an offensive player and clearly show how it signaled a specific play or play type. I believe that there are those coaches in the NFL gifted at finding those things. It would be surprising if the Texans weren't guilty of telegraphing something given they are starting a rookie RG (who has never played the position before) and a converted TE at RT (who is starting for the first time). If true, then it would explain the perceived predictability and also the drop in play of the left side of the line (at times) as well... It's hard to successfully run a bootleg play action pass if the weak side DE knows the play ahead of time!

(JUST A THEORY)

76Texan
01-05-2013, 03:32 PM
I'll never forget the 1st year that Marty Schottenheimer was an analyst for ESPN. More than once, he would take the audience through coaches tape and pinpoint something slight from an offensive player and clearly show how it signaled a specific play or play type. I believe that there are those coaches in the NFL gifted at finding those things. It would be surprising if the Texans weren't guilty of telegraphing something given they are starting a rookie RG (who has never played the position before) and a converted TE at RT (who is starting for the first time). If true, then it would explain the perceived predictability and also the drop in play of the left side of the line (at times) as well... It's hard to successfully run a bootleg play action pass if the weak side DE knows the play ahead of time!

(JUST A THEORY)
About the bootleg and play action, you might want to remember that we're the top team for at least three years now.
I think it was Dan Fouts who talked about it during one of our games.

When you lead the league for that long, you've got to do something right.

Also, in different pre-game press conferences, different opponents have mentioned how our line has been so consistent at making things look the same.

Now, I don't know about those gap runs we've been doing the last couple of years. It might be something interesting to go back to look at in the off-season.

thunderkyss
01-06-2013, 08:20 AM
If true, then it would explain the perceived predictability and also the drop in play of the left side of the line (at times) as well... It's hard to successfully run a bootleg play action pass if the weak side DE knows the play ahead of time!

(JUST A THEORY)

Here's my thinking on the "perceived predictability"

Who cares?

If you're telling me that Kubiak is predictable because "they" know we're going to run the ball on first down, I say so what. We should be able to run the ball on first down whether they know we're going to or not. We should be able to run the ball on 3rd & 1, whether they know or not. That's the difference between the good teams & the bad teams.

Now we've got a QB who is supposed to assess the defense & put us in the best position to succeed. If they're overloading the right side, he should switch it to the left. if they are overloading the left side, he should change it to the right. If they can out man us on both the left & the right, then we just aren't that good to begin with.

Wade Smith, Chris Myers, Ben Jones, Derek Newton, & Ryan Harris getting blown 2 yards off the ball ain't about being predictable. It's about needing to get better at your craft.


But that's just me.