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TimeKiller
12-26-2012, 10:26 AM
Walterfootball.com 's current mock has us taking:

1-C. Patterson, WR
2- Oday Aboushi, OT
3- Andre Ellington, RB

I must say, I'm for it. I'm a buyer of what Patterson is selling. Aboushi seems like a good fit for the Texans as well, even if you want to say take Long's boy I'm good with it. But the RB, what if I said let's take Marcus Lattimore? His injury was downright nasty but let's not forget what RBs can do just one year removed from a nasty injury...He's very Foster-like in my opinion and would be an excellent one-cut runner. By the time he's fully recovered he'll make Ben Tate (or Foster, who knows) expendable. This is the same strategy that netted us Jared Crick, easily a top-50 pick by talent alone in the 4th round. Or even possibly "Tank" Carrradine, DE, another guy who is going to drop due to injury.

I think from there you grab the best DB available with the 3rd comp pick. 4th round best OG available. 5th round get some LBer depth. 6th or wherever the comp picks end up later grab a TE or two or three lol...maybe a flyer on a QB? Help me out here, fill in my blanks:

1- Cordarelle Patterson, WR
2- Aboushi/Long, OT
3- Marcus Lattimore, RB
3a-__________________ , DB?
4-____________________ , OG?
5-____________________ , LB?
6-_____________________ , TE?
7-_____________________ , QB?

Rey
12-26-2012, 10:45 AM
I can get behind Patterson only because I think he's THAT talented.

I think that when it comes to draft day though, he won't be there. I think he's going to do well at the combine and then when people put on his game film they will see how good a player he is.

If he is there though, great. That's your future AJ replacement and can learn under him while he's still around.

badboy
12-26-2012, 01:06 PM
Walterfootball.com 's current mock has us taking:

1-C. Patterson, WR
2- Oday Aboushi, OT
3- Andre Ellington, RB

I must say, I'm for it. I'm a buyer of what Patterson is selling. Aboushi seems like a good fit for the Texans as well, even if you want to say take Long's boy I'm good with it. But the RB, what if I said let's take Marcus Lattimore? His injury was downright nasty but let's not forget what RBs can do just one year removed from a nasty injury...He's very Foster-like in my opinion and would be an excellent one-cut runner. By the time he's fully recovered he'll make Ben Tate (or Foster, who knows) expendable. This is the same strategy that netted us Jared Crick, easily a top-50 pick by talent alone in the 4th round. Or even possibly "Tank" Carrradine, DE, another guy who is going to drop due to injury.

I think from there you grab the best DB available with the 3rd comp pick. 4th round best OG available. 5th round get some LBer depth. 6th or wherever the comp picks end up later grab a TE or two or three lol...maybe a flyer on a QB? Help me out here, fill in my blanks:

1- Cordarelle Patterson, WR
2- Aboushi/Long, OT
3- Marcus Lattimore, RB
3a-__________________ , DB?
4-____________________ , OG?
5-____________________ , LB?
6-_____________________ , TE?
7-_____________________ , QB?Arguably the greatest need nose tackle not even on your list so it is hard for me to take your thread seriously.

Wolf6151
12-26-2012, 04:13 PM
1- Cordarelle Patterson, WR
2- Aboushi/Long, OT
3- Marcus Lattimore, RB
3a-__________________ , DB?
4-____________________ , OG?
5-____________________ , LB?
6-_____________________ , TE?
7-_____________________ , QB?

NT is a bigger need in the 1st and I think that after the Combine, Patterson will be gone by our pick in the 1st. I really like Aboushi but again NT is a much bigger need. It's unknown if Lattimore will come back from his injury and since it's not his first knee injury he's not worth a 3rd, maybe in the 6th or 7th depending on medical opinions.

Corrosion
12-26-2012, 04:37 PM
Arguably the greatest need nose tackle not even on your list so it is hard for me to take your thread seriously.

I think that remains to be seen ... It hinges upon their keeping Cody or not.


I have a suspicion that Cody will resign with the Texans with roughly the same cap figure he has now for another three years.

I also believe they will keep Glover Quin ....

Im much more concerned with the prospect of losing both McCain and Ball at CB along with Dobbins and James at ILB.


My list of needs as of now is quite different than yours - I'd like to upgrade NT but see other positions as higher priority.

badboy
12-26-2012, 05:14 PM
I think that remains to be seen ... It hinges upon their keeping Cody or not.


I have a suspicion that Cody will resign with the Texans with roughly the same cap figure he has now for another three years.

I also believe they will keep Glover Quin ....

Im much more concerned with the prospect of losing both McCain and Ball at CB along with Dobbins and James at ILB.


My list of needs as of now is quite different than yours - I'd like to upgrade NT but see other positions as higher priority.Enjoyed the read and we do disagree. A healthy Cody is not the answer even if he re-signs. That may happen but we need to do better at shutting down the run. Over all stats say we were 4th at one point not sure now but the runs up the middle come at very inopportune times. He turns 30 January and in our system takes a beating. He is not to the defense what Myers is to Oline. If he cannot get job done now, why would you re-sign?

I agree Quin will return.

Rey
12-26-2012, 05:24 PM
Enjoyed the read and we do disagree. A healthy Cody is not the answer even if he re-signs. That may happen but we need to do better at shutting down the run. Over all stats say we were 4th at one point not sure now but the runs up the middle come at very inopportune times. He turns 30 January and in our system takes a beating. He is not to the defense what Myers is to Oline. If he cannot get job done now, why would you re-sign?

I agree Quin will return.

I agree. I wouldn't bring Cody back. I don't think the difference between him and Mitchell warrants the money that will be needed.

I'd rather draft a player with more talent.

Cody gets too much credit IMO. He's not some immovable player and hes not a great penetrator either.

TimeKiller
12-26-2012, 05:35 PM
Arguably the greatest need nose tackle not even on your list so it is hard for me to take your thread seriously.


1. Your assessment of need would be rather easy to dispute.
2. The point of this thread was more about cherry picking/discussing Walter's mock than mine.
3. If I did have a point, it would be taking a guy like Lattimore using the same strategy as last year when they got Crick.

I agree with those who think Patterson is due to rise. Seems like a plug-n-play playmaker in many areas. Still, I'd take him if available.

badboy
12-26-2012, 08:53 PM
1. Your assessment of need would be rather easy to dispute.
2. The point of this thread was more about cherry picking/discussing Walter's mock than mine.
3. If I did have a point, it would be taking a guy like Lattimore using the same strategy as last year when they got Crick.

I agree with those who think Patterson is due to rise. Seems like a plug-n-play playmaker in many areas. Still, I'd take him if available.Not the way I read your thread. You said to fill in your blanks....
Please dispute my need assessment. It helps to clarify my mocks when I get feedback. Not arguing just seeking discussion. Also I think the difference in Crick versus Lattimore is Crick was drafted April of 2012 and played in first game and 14 for season. Lattimore may never play again my understanding at best would miss 2013 if drafted. There are RBs who could contribute 2013 and available at lower rounds.

Corrosion
12-27-2012, 12:49 AM
Enjoyed the read and we do disagree. A healthy Cody is not the answer even if he re-signs. That may happen but we need to do better at shutting down the run. Over all stats say we were 4th at one point not sure now but the runs up the middle come at very inopportune times. He turns 30 January and in our system takes a beating. He is not to the defense what Myers is to Oline. If he cannot get job done now, why would you re-sign?

I agree Quin will return.

Thing about Cody is I dont see a guy who's going to give you , from day one the same production without moving up significantly.

I agree he's going to be on the wrong side of 30 .... and that there is no guarantee he comes back healthy (may need surgery on that bad back).

It boils down to bang for the buck - I think they can resign him on the cheap pending he's healthy. If he's not healthy then all bets are off.


But as of now , Im more concerned with CB , OG , ILB and WR than I am DT.

McCain & Ball FA's - I dont see McCain returning. Ball may be retained on the cheap .... but thats a big ???


At OG Caldwell will be a FA , dont see him returning , Smith will be in the final year of his deal and hasnt played well recently.

ILB Dobbins and James will be FA's. Have to wonder if either is retained and how Cushing will respond post injury. Sharpton .... is a backup IMO.

WR .... man its obvious that #80 needs some help.

Then we have Barwin .... who hasnt really had a real good season numbers wise. They have Mercilus behind him , he may be gone leaving the need for another OLB. That leaves a gaping hole behind the starter ....

Quin along with Demps and Keo that will be FA's at S. I think they keep Quin and outside of Barwin , he's the only guy I see seeking a significant raise.


At OT Gardner , Butler , and Harris will hit the market.


After watching the past few weeks , I really think they have to get better up front on the OL. Its painfully obvious that the current group isnt good enough. Im looking at OG's in the second round.


First round , im looking at WR and CB taking the highest rated guy from either position then filling the other later , probably in the 3rd round or moving back up into the second to grab a guy who slips some. They have a 3rd round comp pick coming , using the other 3rd rd along with later picks to move into the 2nd isnt out of the realm of possibility.


That 3rd round comp pick is where I start looking at DT and ILB .... as well as replacing depth lost from the 20+ that will reach FA.

mussop
12-27-2012, 01:26 AM
Thing about Cody is I dont see a guy who's going to give you , from day one the same production without moving up significantly.

I agree he's going to be on the wrong side of 30 .... and that there is no guarantee he comes back healthy (may need surgery on that bad back).

It boils down to bang for the buck - I think they can resign him on the cheap pending he's healthy. If he's not healthy then all bets are off.


But as of now , Im more concerned with CB , OG , ILB and WR than I am DT.

McCain & Ball FA's - I dont see McCain returning. Ball may be retained on the cheap .... but thats a big ???


At OG Caldwell will be a FA , dont see him returning , Smith will be in the final year of his deal and hasnt played well recently.

ILB Dobbins and James will be FA's. Have to wonder if either is retained and how Cushing will respond post injury. Sharpton .... is a backup IMO.

WR .... man its obvious that #80 needs some help.

Then we have Barwin .... who hasnt really had a real good season numbers wise. They have Mercilus behind him , he may be gone leaving the need for another OLB. That leaves a gaping hole behind the starter ....

Quin along with Demps and Keo that will be FA's at S. I think they keep Quin and outside of Barwin , he's the only guy I see seeking a significant raise.


At OT Gardner , Butler , and Harris will hit the market.


After watching the past few weeks , I really think they have to get better up front on the OL. Its painfully obvious that the current group isnt good enough. Im looking at OG's in the second round.


First round , im looking at WR and CB taking the highest rated guy from either position then filling the other later , probably in the 3rd round or moving back up into the second to grab a guy who slips some. They have a 3rd round comp pick coming , using the other 3rd rd along with later picks to move into the 2nd isnt out of the realm of possibility.


That 3rd round comp pick is where I start looking at DT and ILB .... as well as replacing depth lost from the 20+ that will reach FA.

Not soon enough at ILB IMO.
I don't see Cody playing any better or worse than last year. I don't think he is the problem. He could be upgraded for sure but the ILB thats the real difference in this years defense and last years. We have been exposed in the middle and even with Cush back we need another top dog in there. This defense is designed around the LB's. They are key and right now our ILB's are just not good enough.

Corrosion
12-27-2012, 03:09 AM
Not soon enough at ILB IMO.
I don't see Cody playing any better or worse than last year. I don't think he is the problem. He could be upgraded for sure but the ILB thats the real difference in this years defense and last years. We have been exposed in the middle and even with Cush back we need another top dog in there. This defense is designed around the LB's. They are key and right now our ILB's are just not good enough.

I dont disagree .... but I think a combination of Cushing & Dobbins/ Sharpton might be really good. Dobbins in particular is always in the right spot. (we didnt get to see either combination this season).

There will also be a few guys on the FA market that I would look at ....


I'd live to be able tp spend a premium pick on an ILB but the way things look right now , there are just too many other holes that are more dire.

There is also the possibility that Reed moves inside ... He and Cushing could be a really dynamic pair inside.

steelbtexan
12-27-2012, 09:39 AM
Thing about Cody is I dont see a guy who's going to give you , from day one the same production without moving up significantly.

I agree he's going to be on the wrong side of 30 .... and that there is no guarantee he comes back healthy (may need surgery on that bad back).

It boils down to bang for the buck - I think they can resign him on the cheap pending he's healthy. If he's not healthy then all bets are off.


But as of now , Im more concerned with CB , OG , ILB and WR than I am DT.

McCain & Ball FA's - I dont see McCain returning. Ball may be retained on the cheap .... but thats a big ???


At OG Caldwell will be a FA , dont see him returning , Smith will be in the final year of his deal and hasnt played well recently.

ILB Dobbins and James will be FA's. Have to wonder if either is retained and how Cushing will respond post injury. Sharpton .... is a backup IMO.

WR .... man its obvious that #80 needs some help.

Then we have Barwin .... who hasnt really had a real good season numbers wise. They have Mercilus behind him , he may be gone leaving the need for another OLB. That leaves a gaping hole behind the starter ....

Quin along with Demps and Keo that will be FA's at S. I think they keep Quin and outside of Barwin , he's the only guy I see seeking a significant raise.


At OT Gardner , Butler , and Harris will hit the market.


After watching the past few weeks , I really think they have to get better up front on the OL. Its painfully obvious that the current group isnt good enough. Im looking at OG's in the second round.


First round , im looking at WR and CB taking the highest rated guy from either position then filling the other later , probably in the 3rd round or moving back up into the second to grab a guy who slips some. They have a 3rd round comp pick coming , using the other 3rd rd along with later picks to move into the 2nd isnt out of the realm of possibility.


That 3rd round comp pick is where I start looking at DT and ILB .... as well as replacing depth lost from the 20+ that will reach FA.

This is kind of how I see things.

I'm a big Patterson guy, but he'll probably be gone by 28-32. Terrance Williams is the next WR on my list and would represent great value in that draft range.

I would then trade up and if one of the QB's fell to the top of the 2nd I would trade up and take him. (Bray is my guy, he's a top 5 talent that wouldn't be there if he didn't have a run in with his HC and have mechanical issues. He has a very strong arm though) RT would be on my list with the comp 3rd rd pick. (There appears to be depth in this yrs draft there) I have high hopes for Brooks next yr at OG. This would fix the offense. Or atleast be a start.

Then I would re-sign Quin who I consider to be the most important FA on the Texans this yr. Quins versatility playing LB in the nickle and being the leader (getting guys lined up correctly) is invaluable. I agree with you that Cody will be re-signed at his cuurent contract value. However to do this the Texans will have to re-up him for 3 yrs. Would you do this? Or is 3 yrs too long? Barwin is a tough case, he's played more like a 2 mill guy than a 10 mill guy. How much would you pay him and how would you restructure his contract?

The rest of the draft should be for adding depth to the defense, paticularly the LB's as they are the heart of the defense. I really like Klien and Knott the 2 Iowa St LB's. Those guys are players and should be there in the 4-5th rd range.

If the Texans let the lower tier FA's walk, you can always find guys to replace them. (Dobbins, James, Demps etc...0 They are street guys that can be replaced Ball is an example of a guy like this that Rick signed off of the street last yr.

The main thing is to try to fix the offense for the short term and the long term in this yrs draft. It's been neglected forfar to long. IMHO

beerlover
12-27-2012, 10:24 AM
Bleecher see's a whole bundle of QB's taken early, check out their "FRESH MOCK" just posted: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1456322-2013-nfl-mock-draft-full-first-round-predictions-for-nfl-week-17?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=nfl

how would you guys feel about Jordan?

I still prefer Short :)

TimeKiller
12-27-2012, 12:07 PM
Not the way I read your thread. You said to fill in your blanks....
Please dispute my need assessment. It helps to clarify my mocks when I get feedback. Not arguing just seeking discussion. Also I think the difference in Crick versus Lattimore is Crick was drafted April of 2012 and played in first game and 14 for season. Lattimore may never play again my understanding at best would miss 2013 if drafted. There are RBs who could contribute 2013 and available at lower rounds.

How long have Cody/Mitchell been the only two DTs on the roster? And they're the first guys off the field when the Texans play nickel, dime, whatever. There even seems to be a few extra really big guys that could play in the middle this draft....and we all know how Texans fans long for some mammoth NT. Guess what probably won't happen yet again?!

The right side of the OL is in much worse shape than DT. More depth at CB and S to continue improving the coverage and support the pass rushers they've invested in. The offensive skill positions are decently stocked with depth but elite talent? I think picking up guys like Cody is easier than hitting on a pick for a DT.

TimeKiller
12-27-2012, 12:13 PM
Bleecher see's a whole bundle of QB's taken early, check out their "FRESH MOCK" just posted: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1456322-2013-nfl-mock-draft-full-first-round-predictions-for-nfl-week-17?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=nfl

how would you guys feel about Jordan?

I still prefer Short :)

I don't think he lasts to the late 1st but I would freak out if we got him. He would be a unique weapon in combating offenses. As a sam LB in 3-4 looks you could send him all over the field, covering TEs and backs or simply rush the passer.

beerlover
12-27-2012, 12:27 PM
How long have Cody/Mitchell been the only two DTs on the roster? And they're the first guys off the field when the Texans play nickel, dime, whatever. There even seems to be a few extra really big guys that could play in the middle this draft....and we all know how Texans fans long for some mammoth NT. Guess what probably won't happen yet again?!

The right side of the OL is in much worse shape than DT. More depth at CB and S to continue improving the coverage and support the pass rushers they've invested in. The offensive skill positions are decently stocked with depth but elite talent? I think picking up guys like Cody is easier than hitting on a pick for a DT.

Texans are in prime position to finally address a serious upgrade inside. Cody is a free agent. Quin is more important to retain so unless Shaun is willing to stay here for less money (doubtful) there is a serious gap/hole in the middle. Perfect timing to move forward via the draft with a player more capable & who will be a foundation piece on defense. It is also imperative, that JJ Watt stays clean & healthy. Teams are double teaming him. Don't you expect Indy to adjust their defense second time around based on Watt did to them a couple weeks ago? They will do this & without fear because nobody next to Watt creates a mismatch & can be single blocked. Watt has been remarkably durable during this whole process but how long can he sustain such hand to hand combat? I'd say that BB is right & time is at hand to get JJ some help inside, someone else who requires double teams so JJ can continue doing his thing :)

NCTexan
12-27-2012, 01:07 PM
Bleecher see's a whole bundle of QB's taken early, check out their "FRESH MOCK" just posted: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1456322-2013-nfl-mock-draft-full-first-round-predictions-for-nfl-week-17?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=nfl

how would you guys feel about Jordan?

I still prefer Short :)

The irony here is rich with the Raiders reaching at pick three for a QB but Glennon going #2 overall.

badboy
12-27-2012, 03:46 PM
Thing about Cody is I dont see a guy who's going to give you , from day one the same production without moving up significantly.

I agree he's going to be on the wrong side of 30 .... and that there is no guarantee he comes back healthy (may need surgery on that bad back).

It boils down to bang for the buck - I think they can resign him on the cheap pending he's healthy. If he's not healthy then all bets are off.


But as of now , Im more concerned with CB , OG , ILB and WR than I am DT.

McCain & Ball FA's - I dont see McCain returning. Ball may be retained on the cheap .... but thats a big ???


At OG Caldwell will be a FA , dont see him returning , Smith will be in the final year of his deal and hasnt played well recently.

ILB Dobbins and James will be FA's. Have to wonder if either is retained and how Cushing will respond post injury. Sharpton .... is a backup IMO.

WR .... man its obvious that #80 needs some help.

Then we have Barwin .... who hasnt really had a real good season numbers wise. They have Mercilus behind him , he may be gone leaving the need for another OLB. That leaves a gaping hole behind the starter ....

Quin along with Demps and Keo that will be FA's at S. I think they keep Quin and outside of Barwin , he's the only guy I see seeking a significant raise.


At OT Gardner , Butler , and Harris will hit the market.


After watching the past few weeks , I really think they have to get better up front on the OL. Its painfully obvious that the current group isnt good enough. Im looking at OG's in the second round.


First round , im looking at WR and CB taking the highest rated guy from either position then filling the other later , probably in the 3rd round or moving back up into the second to grab a guy who slips some. They have a 3rd round comp pick coming , using the other 3rd rd along with later picks to move into the 2nd isnt out of the realm of possibility.


That 3rd round comp pick is where I start looking at DT and ILB .... as well as replacing depth lost from the 20+ that will reach FA.Good points: Cody if healthy may sign cheap and allow a draft pick to work in. He is well liked and has the "On the Nose" thing going but seems like that would do well anywhere. I think as you do that a hoss is needed beside Cushing & that's why I select Andrew Jackson in 3rd comp. He had 6 tackles last night (111 for season) despite Central Michigan's QB passing for 253 & 3 TDS. 6'1 262 and strong with playmaking to sidelines. I think first round NTs will not be there for us even if Wade would agree to take one. Sylvester Williams who not only clogs middle gets to QB (6 sacks) should be in second and Brandon Williams is getting good reviews for 4th round.

Brandon Harris replaces McCain who had not been that great prior to injury. I think before we throw Harris under the bus he should get same time as KJ who played every game compared to minimal for Harris. I am hoping Routt will replace Ball. JMO.


WRs vs Corners: Patterson vs Trufant imo. The first a big fast 4.46 who might stretch field for AJ & has highlight reels. Trufant is a shut down CB and we should be able to get either by trading down into second. I don't think Trufant will beat out KJ first year but Patterson should beat out Walter if Posey has not by then. So question is if NT is a later than second round need, do you go Cordarrelle Patterson WR (first) and maybe David Amerson Cb (second)? Or Trufant first pick and then ? I have seen no second round ILB better than third round choices.

badboy
12-27-2012, 03:53 PM
Not soon enough at ILB IMO.
I don't see Cody playing any better or worse than last year. I don't think he is the problem. He could be upgraded for sure but the ILB thats the real difference in this years defense and last years. We have been exposed in the middle and even with Cush back we need another top dog in there. This defense is designed around the LB's. They are key and right now our ILB's are just not good enough.Most evaluations have T'eo going high first round and LSU's Kevin Minter high second round before we pick. Ogletree might be there in late second & at 6'3 234 could add to his bulk. He is a tackling machine & could play OLB.

So if you are going to "want" how would you "fill" the want? ILB is very shallow this draft.

TimeKiller
12-27-2012, 04:52 PM
Texans are in prime position to finally address a serious upgrade inside. Cody is a free agent. Quin is more important to retain so unless Shaun is willing to stay here for less money (doubtful) there is a serious gap/hole in the middle. Perfect timing to move forward via the draft with a player more capable & who will be a foundation piece on defense. It is also imperative, that JJ Watt stays clean & healthy. Teams are double teaming him. Don't you expect Indy to adjust their defense second time around based on Watt did to them a couple weeks ago? They will do this & without fear because nobody next to Watt creates a mismatch & can be single blocked. Watt has been remarkably durable during this whole process but how long can he sustain such hand to hand combat? I'd say that BB is right & time is at hand to get JJ some help inside, someone else who requires double teams so JJ can continue doing his thing :)

Ok, so if you believe JJ needs help staying free of double teams wouldn't you want another stud pass rusher instead of a 2 down DT? Even if you're stuck on DT, how can you possibly believe the Texans are going to bring in a space-eater???

Shariff Floyd, DT, is my pick in the 1st if it must be a DT. That guy is strong enough to hold the point and quick enough to play 5 tech (where he would probably end up anyway). 1-gap penetration. I can't believe I really have to point that out.

Rey
12-27-2012, 05:05 PM
Bad boy...why do u think we can get Patterson by trading down into the second?

badboy
12-27-2012, 05:13 PM
Ok, so if you believe JJ needs help staying free of double teams wouldn't you want another stud pass rusher instead of a 2 down DT? Even if you're stuck on DT, how can you possibly believe the Texans are going to bring in a space-eater???

Shariff Floyd, DT, is my pick in the 1st if it must be a DT. That guy is strong enough to hold the point and quick enough to play 5 tech (where he would probably end up anyway). 1-gap penetration. I can't believe I really have to point that out.Not to speak for BL but Cody is nothing more than a "space eater" so why not? Watt on one side and A Smith/Crick on other of a decent NT will help keep JJ clean as BL posted. A Nose is to clog the middle shutting down the run first & foremost. Any sacks or rushes are gravy & why someone like Sylvester Williams or Brandon Williams who has done both is needed. I mocked Alabama's Jesse Williams early but all he does is clog middle ala Cody. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1824786/jesse-williams

WEAKNESSES: Bit of a one-trick pony as Williams does not possess the quickness or the agility to collapse the pocket as a pass rusher. Must do a better job of protecting his knees as he is susceptible to cut blocks. Too often raises his pad level at the snap, negating some of his power and making him all the more vulnerable to cuts, as he possesses only moderate flexibility.

badboy
12-27-2012, 05:23 PM
Bad boy...why do u think we can get Patterson by trading down into the second?Because of rankings I trust like
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/2013/WR #53 with 6 WR ahead of him. Not saying he will be 53rd player selected but should be there top 8 or so of second round. I have watched him a lot as those ranked above him. I can't argue with those evals but I have him 3rd behind Keenan Allen and T. Williams. If Texans select him in first really cool & reduces risks of losing him. Patterson has some excellent film but also some not so good. He will not get the calls in NFL that he has in college when he pushes off the DB. I do not evaluate him as a PR but he can do that.

Rey
12-27-2012, 05:56 PM
Because of rankings I trust like
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/2013/WR #53 with 6 WR ahead of him. Not saying he will be 53rd player selected but should be there top 8 or so of second round. I have watched him a lot as those ranked above him. I can't argue with those evals but I have him 3rd behind Keenan Allen and T. Williams. If Texans select him in first really cool & reduces risks of losing him. Patterson has some excellent film but also some not so good. He will not get the calls in NFL that he has in college when he pushes off the DB. I do not evaluate him as a PR but he can do that.

Fair enough. Was just wondering.

Corrosion
12-27-2012, 06:38 PM
This is kind of how I see things.

I'm a big Patterson guy, but he'll probably be gone by 28-32. Terrance Williams is the next WR on my list and would represent great value in that draft range.

I would then trade up and if one of the QB's fell to the top of the 2nd I would trade up and take him. (Bray is my guy, he's a top 5 talent that wouldn't be there if he didn't have a run in with his HC and have mechanical issues. He has a very strong arm though) RT would be on my list with the comp 3rd rd pick. (There appears to be depth in this yrs draft there) I have high hopes for Brooks next yr at OG. This would fix the offense. Or atleast be a start.

Then I would re-sign Quin who I consider to be the most important FA on the Texans this yr. Quins versatility playing LB in the nickle and being the leader (getting guys lined up correctly) is invaluable. I agree with you that Cody will be re-signed at his cuurent contract value. However to do this the Texans will have to re-up him for 3 yrs. Would you do this? Or is 3 yrs too long? Barwin is a tough case, he's played more like a 2 mill guy than a 10 mill guy. How much would you pay him and how would you restructure his contract?

The rest of the draft should be for adding depth to the defense, paticularly the LB's as they are the heart of the defense. I really like Klien and Knott the 2 Iowa St LB's. Those guys are players and should be there in the 4-5th rd range.

If the Texans let the lower tier FA's walk, you can always find guys to replace them. (Dobbins, James, Demps etc...0 They are street guys that can be replaced Ball is an example of a guy like this that Rick signed off of the street last yr.

The main thing is to try to fix the offense for the short term and the long term in this yrs draft. It's been neglected forfar to long. IMHO

I want nothing to do with any of the QB's in this draft class ... I think at best , even those taken in the top of the draft are career backups .... I might look at a guy like Landry Jones if he fell to me at the Comp pick in the 3rd (MW comp pick) but ..... that might even be a stretch.


My board looks like this for now and pending both Cody and Quin are retained (without going into specific players)

1 CB or WR
2 OG
3 CB or WR - whichever didnt get covered in the 1st.
3Comp - ILB / RT.
4 ILB / RT
5 and beyond BPA.

TimeKiller
12-27-2012, 07:39 PM
Not to speak for BL but Cody is nothing more than a "space eater" so why not? Watt on one side and A Smith/Crick on other of a decent NT will help keep JJ clean as BL posted. A Nose is to clog the middle shutting down the run first & foremost. Any sacks or rushes are gravy & why someone like Sylvester Williams or Brandon Williams who has done both is needed. I mocked Alabama's Jesse Williams early but all he does is clog middle ala Cody. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1824786/jesse-williams

WEAKNESSES: Bit of a one-trick pony as Williams does not possess the quickness or the agility to collapse the pocket as a pass rusher. Must do a better job of protecting his knees as he is susceptible to cut blocks. Too often raises his pad level at the snap, negating some of his power and making him all the more vulnerable to cuts, as he possesses only moderate flexibility.

Yeah, no thanks on Jesse Williams. He's bad bodied and a product of the system. I'll stick with Floyd who is a truck and has the physical ability and skills to stay on the field every down.

mussop
12-27-2012, 10:08 PM
Ok, so if you believe JJ needs help staying free of double teams wouldn't you want another stud pass rusher instead of a 2 down DT? Even if you're stuck on DT, how can you possibly believe the Texans are going to bring in a space-eater???

Shariff Floyd, DT, is my pick in the 1st if it must be a DT. That guy is strong enough to hold the point and quick enough to play 5 tech (where he would probably end up anyway). 1-gap penetration. I can't believe I really have to point that out.

Floyd is pretty good at getting penetration but good OL can lock him up. If we are going DT early Short is THE MAN. He penetrates better than any other DT in this draft and has that rare ability to disengage from OL and attack the ball with a burst. Very similar in that regard to JJ Watt. He has a solid anchor and is stout against the run. And because of his ability to penetrate he would stay on the field on passing downs. Unless Wade wants a space eater in the middle (doubt it) Short is the best fit by far in this draft.

Shorts ability to penetrate would mean Watt would see lots more one on one and we all know what that would mean. He will be gone alot earlier than where we will be picking so if we are going to go DT route, we will have to move up to get Short. It would be worth it IMO because he is Taylor made for this defense.

badboy
12-27-2012, 10:35 PM
Floyd is pretty good at getting penetration but good OL can lock him up. If we are going DT early Short is THE MAN. He penetrates better than any other DT in this draft and has that rare ability to disengage from OL and attack the ball with a burst. Very similar in that regard to JJ Watt. He has a solid anchor and is stout against the run. And because of his ability to penetrate he would stay on the field on passing downs. Unless Wade wants a space eater in the middle (doubt it) Short is the best fit by far in this draft.

Shorts ability to penetrate would mean Watt would see lots more one on one and we all know what that would mean. He will be gone alot earlier than where we will be picking so if we are going to go DT route, we will have to move up to get Short. It would be worth it IMO because he is Taylor made for this defense.Can you compare Short to Brandon Williams who also has rep for penetrating (8.5 sacks 17.5 TFL) and can clog middle at 325lbs. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1424923-2013-nfl-draft-missouri-southern-defensive-tackle-brandon-williams

If you can offer comparison, please consider the round difference. Seems like Brandon would be the superior choice especially if some are right that Cody will return.

mussop
12-27-2012, 11:13 PM
Can you compare Short to Brandon Williams who also has rep for penetrating (8.5 sacks 17.5 TFL) and can clog middle at 325lbs. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1424923-2013-nfl-draft-missouri-southern-defensive-tackle-brandon-williams

If you can offer comparison, please consider the round difference. Seems like Brandon would be the superior choice especially if some are right that Cody will return.

Honestly don't know much about him. Don't have access to much division 2 game tapes. I know he is going to play in the senior bowl so we'll have to see what he's all about there. His write ups are intriguing I'll say that. But with any small school player it will come down to ability to impress against better competition in the off season.

My take on Short is that he is perfect fit for our defensive scheme and would be an instant starter. Therefore worthy of a first round pick, even a move up depending on cost. And yes thats even if we keep Cody. Not that I think Cody is that bad either. I just think Short is that good and fits that well.

badboy
12-27-2012, 11:19 PM
Honestly don't know much about him. Don't have access to much division 2 game tapes. I know he is going to play in the senior bowl so we'll have to see what he's all about there. His write ups are intriguing I'll say that. But with any small school player it will come down to ability to impress against better competition in the off season.

My take on Short is that he is perfect fit for our defensive scheme and would be an instant starter. Therefore worthy of a first round pick, even a move up depending on cost. And yes thats even if we keep Cody. Not that I think Cody is that bad either. I just think Short is that good and fits that well.Thanks. Senior bowl last season was a joke so I doubt I'll get much. When I research Short, many folks who have watch him say good DT, not good Nose.

steelbtexan
12-27-2012, 11:39 PM
Texans are in prime position to finally address a serious upgrade inside. Cody is a free agent. Quin is more important to retain so unless Shaun is willing to stay here for less money (doubtful) there is a serious gap/hole in the middle. Perfect timing to move forward via the draft with a player more capable & who will be a foundation piece on defense. It is also imperative, that JJ Watt stays clean & healthy. Teams are double teaming him. Don't you expect Indy to adjust their defense second time around based on Watt did to them a couple weeks ago? They will do this & without fear because nobody next to Watt creates a mismatch & can be single blocked. Watt has been remarkably durable during this whole process but how long can he sustain such hand to hand combat? I'd say that BB is right & time is at hand to get JJ some help inside, someone else who requires double teams so JJ can continue doing his thing :)

Getting help doesn't mean 1st rd help. I want a dominating NT just as much as the next guy. But with the way the offense has looked, it's time to invest high picks in it. Luckily this yr is a good yr to fill holes on the OL/WR.

My mind on the Texans needs changed when I saw 2 offensive TD's in 14 qtrs. But if you want a 3rd or later NT Brandon Williams or Cory Grissom might be good picks.

mussop
12-28-2012, 12:26 AM
Thanks. Senior bowl last season was a joke so I doubt I'll get much. When I research Short, many folks who have watch him say good DT, not good Nose.

Something to consider is what Wade expects out the DT position. I say DT because I don't see our middle guy as a NT. If it were a traditional NT position would Cody or Mitchell be playing there? I know he has had bigger DT's in the past but in recent years he seems to have adjusted that position to suite smaller more athletic DT's like Ratliff and Cody. Cody has been there more because he is the best available for Wade. I have little doubt Wade would replace him if the resources were available to him. I suspect (just my opinion) it would be with a player more like Ratliff than a NT type.

mussop
12-28-2012, 12:35 AM
Getting help doesn't mean 1st rd help. I want a dominating NT just as much as the next guy. But with the way the offense has looked, it's time to invest high picks in it. Luckily this yr is a good yr to fill holes on the OL/WR.

My mind on the Texans needs changed when I saw 2 offensive TD's in 14 qtrs. But if you want a 3rd or later NT Brandon Williams or Cory Grissom might be good picks.

Really can't go wrong either way. But I've always been a build the trenches first guy. However really good guards can be found alot later than really good D linemen. Plus scheme is important to remember. Our Scheme allows for us to be able to take OL later and still get high quality fits. If you can get a starting DL that really fits your scheme you jump on it.

Corrosion
12-28-2012, 12:38 AM
Texans are in prime position to finally address a serious upgrade inside. Cody is a free agent. Quin is more important to retain so unless Shaun is willing to stay here for less money (doubtful) there is a serious gap/hole in the middle. Perfect timing to move forward via the draft with a player more capable & who will be a foundation piece on defense. It is also imperative, that JJ Watt stays clean & healthy. Teams are double teaming him. Don't you expect Indy to adjust their defense second time around based on Watt did to them a couple weeks ago? They will do this & without fear because nobody next to Watt creates a mismatch & can be single blocked. Watt has been remarkably durable during this whole process but how long can he sustain such hand to hand combat? I'd say that BB is right & time is at hand to get JJ some help inside, someone else who requires double teams so JJ can continue doing his thing :)

I wouldnt mind an upgrade inside .... but you have to remember that Cody is on the is sidelines on passing downs and that they tend to go with another DE (3-4 de) moving inside .... especially earlier in the year before injuries sent Harris to the IR. They had Watt , with Ninja and Harris or Crick inside and Barwin playing a more typical DE.

The only way you upgrade the NT spot is with a three down player .... and I only see one of those guys in this entire draft and he'll be gone top five.


In looking for help for Watt and Ninja on those passing situations .... I think you have to look at a 3-4 DE rather than a NT type.

mussop
12-28-2012, 12:56 AM
I wouldnt mind an upgrade inside .... but you have to remember that Cody is on the is sidelines on passing downs and that they tend to go with another DE (3-4 de) moving inside .... especially earlier in the year before injuries sent Harris to the IR. They had Watt , with Ninja and Harris or Crick inside and Barwin playing a more typical DE.

The only way you upgrade the NT spot is with a three down player .... and I only see one of those guys in this entire draft and he'll be gone top five.


In looking for help for Watt and Ninja on those passing situations .... I think you have to look at a 3-4 DE rather than a NT type.

Who are you referring too? Have you scouted Short?

Corrosion
12-28-2012, 01:09 AM
Who are you referring too? Have you scouted Short?

I was talking about Sylvester Williams out of NC. He's the only guy in this crop of DT/NT I see as being on the field in passing situations with the Texans. Other teams Lotulelei and Short might see more use in those situations but Wade tends to put a premium on pass rush ability.
(Williams might not fall in the top five but he'll be gone in the top 10 , Texans have no shot at him).

Yeah Ive scouted Short and Im not at all high on him .... He's a paper tiger IMO , all the tools and limited production , disappears far too much for long stretches. #nomotor.

beerlover
12-28-2012, 02:02 AM
I was talking about Sylvester Williams out of NC. He's the only guy in this crop of DT/NT I see as being on the field in passing situations with the Texans. Other teams Lotulelei and Short might see more use in those situations but Wade tends to put a premium on pass rush ability.
(Williams might not fall in the top five but he'll be gone in the top 10 , Texans have no shot at him).

Yeah Ive scouted Short and Im not at all high on him .... He's a paper tiger IMO , all the tools and limited production , disappears far too much for long stretches. #nomotor.

paper tiger? not from what I've watched. Kawaan & Sylvester's numbers are almost spot on with exception Short has done it for four years compared to Williams two. I also feel the Big 10 is a much tougher conference than Atlantic Coast. Short was named Second Team AP All-American not Williams. He finished 42 tackles, 14.5 tackles for loss, six sacks, four PBUs, four blocked kicks, two fumbles recovered and one forced. He finished the 2012 regular season tied for fourth in the Big Ten in tackles for loss per game and tied for fifth in sacks. Short is eighth all-time at Purdue in both career tackles for loss (48.0) and sacks (18.5) and has blocked more career field goals (six) than any other player in school history.

That is not limited production from a nose tackle. Limited production & paper tiger would apply more to Cody, I know he has been injured but staying healthy is also a part of the game. I mean 17 tackles for the season & we don't have a problem, hey I know lets rush to resign him cause we need his production. No sacks. No blocks. No tackles for loss. Give me a freaking break. Maybe Mitchell is getting most of the nose reps lets check out his numbers? Wow, 28 tackles, 11 more than Cody. Unfortunately no sacks, no swatts but hey he did force one fumble.

They say you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it :deadhorse

mussop
12-28-2012, 02:04 AM
I was talking about Sylvester Williams out of NC. He's the only guy in this crop of DT/NT I see as being on the field in passing situations with the Texans. Other teams Lotulelei and Short might see more use in those situations but Wade tends to put a premium on pass rush ability.
(Williams might not fall in the top five but he'll be gone in the top 10 , Texans have no shot at him).

Yeah Ive scouted Short and Im not at all high on him .... He's a paper tiger IMO , all the tools and limited production , disappears far too much for long stretches. #nomotor.

Wow I don't see any of that. You do know he played with a bad ankle a few games this year right? Maybe thats where you are getting "disappears far too much for long stretches. #nomotor.".

as for limited production,

Short 42 tackles, 14.5 tackles for a loss, six sacks, four passes broken up, four blocked kicks and a forced fumble.

Williams 42 tackles, 13.5 tackles for a loss and six sacks.

I do like Williams. He has a better anchor than Short but is not even close as a penetrator. I guess it just depends on what you want out of the position. I want someone at DT who can split defenders regularly. This will allow Watt more one on ones. A player like Williams will make us better against the run but wont help much in pass rush.

From what I have seen Williams looks like a mid to late first. Of course my opinion could change depending on his workouts and combine. I don't see them changing to top 5 or ten though.I was talking about Sylvester Williams out of NC. He's the only guy in this crop of DT/NT I see as being on the field in passing situations with the Texans. Other teams Lotulelei and Short might see more use in those situations but Wade tends to put a premium on pass rush ability.
(Williams might not fall in the top five but he'll be gone in the top 10 , Texans have no shot at him).

Yeah Ive scouted Short and Im not at all high on him .... He's a paper tiger IMO , all the tools and limited production , disappears far too much for long stretches. #nomotor.

Wow I don't see any of that. You do know he played with a bad ankle a few games this year right? Maybe thats where you are getting "disappears far too much for long stretches. #nomotor.".

as for limited production,

Short 42 tackles, 14.5 tackles for a loss, six sacks, four passes broken up, four blocked kicks and a forced fumble.

Williams 42 tackles, 13.5 tackles for a loss and six sacks.

I do like Williams. He has a better anchor than Short but is not even close as a penetrator. I guess it just depends on what you want out of the position. I want someone at DT who can split defenders regularly. This will allow Watt more one on ones. A player like Williams will make us better against the run but wont help much in pass rush.

From what I have seen Williams looks like a mid to late first. Of course my opinion could change depending on his workouts and combine. I don't see them changing to top 5 or ten though.

Corrosion
12-28-2012, 02:20 AM
Wow I don't see any of that. You do know he played with a bad ankle a few games this year right? Maybe thats where you are getting "disappears far too much for long stretches. #nomotor.".

as for limited production,

Short 42 tackles, 14.5 tackles for a loss, six sacks, four passes broken up, four blocked kicks and a forced fumble.

Williams 42 tackles, 13.5 tackles for a loss and six sacks.



That I did not know .... so many prospects , hard to keep up with everything.

From what I had seen , he would have a good quarter , or a few good plays , then disappear for a half .... Yes he put up stats , but went long stretches without doing much.

That injury may have had something to do with what I was seeing .... Still , I think both are long gone before the Texans select in the first round.

Wolf6151
12-28-2012, 02:23 AM
Here's how I evaluate the 3 DT's that fit our system, Jesse Williams, Sylvester Williams, and Kawann Short.

J. Williams, I see him as a guy with great strength who can hold the double teams and the LOS or push a single blocker backwards and collapse the pocket though he's not a good penetrating NT because he lacks the athletic quickness. To me he's more of a traditional brickwall NT with good straight ahead speed but lacks lateral agility to make the tackle on plays that don't come right at him. Great strength, great anchor, good straight line speed, poor lateral agility/quickness. He's #3 on my list.

S. Williams, I see him more as a 4-3 UT with great quickness, great swim move, great penetrating ability, lateral agility, speed, and athleticism, but he lacks some strength to hold up to double teams or collapse the pocket consistently. Luckily once he gets on an NFL strength and conditioning program he'll gain that core strength in his legs to anchor and hold up to double teams, but it might take a year. He's more of a quick penetrating NT, in our 1 gap system, that can pressure the QB, play the run well, and pursue a play that doesn't come right at him. He's #2 on my list.

K. Short, he's a combo of the 2 Williams, he's got the strength in his core and legs to hold the double teams and collapse the pocket against single blockers. He's got enough quickness and lateral agility to penetrate and play the run and also has a 2nd gear when in the clear that he's got good speed and able to chase a play that doesn't come his way. S. Williams is better at penetrating, J. Williams is better at holding the LOS, while K. Short has got both skills and will get even better in an NFL conditioning program. Imagine a strong penetrating big nasty lined up next to JJ Watt, it would take 4 O-linemen to properly block both of them. He's #1 on my list.


JMO.

mussop
12-28-2012, 04:41 AM
Here's how I evaluate the 3 DT's that fit our system, Jesse Williams, Sylvester Williams, and Kawann Short.

J. Williams, I see him as a guy with great strength who can hold the double teams and the LOS or push a single blocker backwards and collapse the pocket though he's not a good penetrating NT because he lacks the athletic quickness. To me he's more of a traditional brickwall NT with good straight ahead speed but lacks lateral agility to make the tackle on plays that don't come right at him. Great strength, great anchor, good straight line speed, poor lateral agility/quickness. He's #3 on my list.

S. Williams, I see him more as a 4-3 UT with great quickness, great swim move, great penetrating ability, lateral agility, speed, and athleticism, but he lacks some strength to hold up to double teams or collapse the pocket consistently. Luckily once he gets on an NFL strength and conditioning program he'll gain that core strength in his legs to anchor and hold up to double teams, but it might take a year. He's more of a quick penetrating NT, in our 1 gap system, that can pressure the QB, play the run well, and pursue a play that doesn't come right at him. He's #2 on my list.

K. Short, he's a combo of the 2 Williams, he's got the strength in his core and legs to hold the double teams and collapse the pocket against single blockers. He's got enough quickness and lateral agility to penetrate and play the run and also has a 2nd gear when in the clear that he's got good speed and able to chase a play that doesn't come his way. S. Williams is better at penetrating, J. Williams is better at holding the LOS, while K. Short has got both skills and will get even better in an NFL conditioning program. Imagine a strong penetrating big nasty lined up next to JJ Watt, it would take 4 O-linemen to properly block both of them. He's #1 on my list.


JMO.

I agree with everything you said here except that Williams is a "great" penetrator. I think he is good but defiantly not great. Ive said this before, The one thing that I really like about Short is his ability to disengage from OL and attack the ball with a burst. It's very Watt like. IMO that is what makes Watt so special and is the biggest reason I like Short. Again JMO.

Wolf6151
12-28-2012, 04:46 AM
I agree with everything you said here except that Williams is a "great" penetrator. I think he is good but defiantly not great. Ive said this before, The one thing that I really like about Short is his ability to disengage from OL and attack the ball with a burst. It's very Watt like. IMO that is what makes Watt so special and is the biggest reason I like Short. Again JMO.

For a NT I think Sylvester's penetrating ability if very good/great. He's got a great swim move. I agree with you about Short and would love to see him lined up next to JJ and Antonio.

76Texan
12-28-2012, 11:02 AM
I think the Texans need to be in a Win-Now mode.

They should go BPA at a few key areas they think they need the most.

If they find a 3-down NT, they should go for it.
Or a big ILB that can take on linemen as well as having the smart and the ability to cover TEs.
Or a big safety that can blanket a TE, allowing Quin to be the fifth DB.
Or a monster OT, allowing Newton to be the swing tackle.
If they don't like Brandon Brook enough to be a starter, they need to find a good one there.

As much as I like some players in the draft at other position, I don't think they can add enough overall value to the team to make it more complete.

TimeKiller
12-28-2012, 11:37 AM
paper tiger? not from what I've watched. Kawaan & Sylvester's numbers are almost spot on with exception Short has done it for four years compared to Williams two. I also feel the Big 10 is a much tougher conference than Atlantic Coast. Short was named Second Team AP All-American not Williams. He finished 42 tackles, 14.5 tackles for loss, six sacks, four PBUs, four blocked kicks, two fumbles recovered and one forced. He finished the 2012 regular season tied for fourth in the Big Ten in tackles for loss per game and tied for fifth in sacks. Short is eighth all-time at Purdue in both career tackles for loss (48.0) and sacks (18.5) and has blocked more career field goals (six) than any other player in school history.

That is not limited production from a nose tackle. Limited production & paper tiger would apply more to Cody, I know he has been injured but staying healthy is also a part of the game. I mean 17 tackles for the season & we don't have a problem, hey I know lets rush to resign him cause we need his production. No sacks. No blocks. No tackles for loss. Give me a freaking break. Maybe Mitchell is getting most of the nose reps lets check out his numbers? Wow, 28 tackles, 11 more than Cody. Unfortunately no sacks, no swatts but hey he did force one fumble.

They say you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it :deadhorse

I think it's a little dishonest to gloss over a few tackle statistics when anyone who watches is pretty keenly aware that Cody/Mitchell are the first guys off the field when they start switching it up. For their pay, these guys produce decent numbers in a system that doesn't favor them. I'd much rather see them continue after pass rushers, pass coverage guys or big time skill position players....in the first round anyway.

beerlover
12-28-2012, 11:46 AM
I think it's a little dishonest to gloss over a few tackle statistics when anyone who watches is pretty keenly aware that Cody/Mitchell are the first guys off the field when they start switching it up. For their pay, these guys produce decent numbers in a system that doesn't favor them. I'd much rather see them continue after pass rushers, pass coverage guys or big time skill position players....in the first round anyway.

Was in response to limited production report concerning Short to simply demonstrate the contrary nothing dishonest about that more like factual.

mussop
12-28-2012, 12:23 PM
I think the Texans need to be in a Win-Now mode.

They should go BPA at a few key areas they think they need the most.

If they find a 3-down NT, they should go for it.
Or a big ILB that can take on linemen as well as having the smart and the ability to cover TEs.
Or a big safety that can blanket a TE, allowing Quin to be the fifth DB.
Or a monster OT, allowing Newton to be the swing tackle.
If they don't like Brandon Brook enough to be a starter, they need to find a good one there.

As much as I like some players in the draft at other position, I don't think they can add enough overall value to the team to make it more complete.

Couldn't agree more. This is how I always approach the draft. Don't understand why people lock in on certain positions every round. Just because you see a certain position as the biggest need doesn't mean that has to be your first pick.

beerlover
12-28-2012, 01:04 PM
Couldn't agree more. This is how I always approach the draft. Don't understand why people lock in on certain positions every round. Just because you see a certain position as the biggest need doesn't mean that has to be your first pick.

Speaking for myself only, I try to target who I feel are impact players. Which there should be a higher degree of competence in relationship to specific draft grade. Hence a first round pick should net most immediate (usually need) & long term result (based against peers) :)

badboy
12-28-2012, 02:15 PM
Something to consider is what Wade expects out the DT position. I say DT because I don't see our middle guy as a NT. If it were a traditional NT position would Cody or Mitchell be playing there? I know he has had bigger DT's in the past but in recent years he seems to have adjusted that position to suite smaller more athletic DT's like Ratliff and Cody. Cody has been there more because he is the best available for Wade. I have little doubt Wade would replace him if the resources were available to him. I suspect (just my opinion) it would be with a player more like Ratliff than a NT type.

Bolded is my position. Wade has stated he makes do with what he has and when he arrived more glaring issues like both starting corners and both starting safeties needed improving. Moving Quin to SS, Signing Manning (FS) & Joseph to CB1 resolved three but ate some big cap dollars. CB2 with Jackson took a while and caused Phillips to add FAs to alternate and support KJ. Now is the time to replace Cody as several has mention and has been my mantra. Health, age & expiring contract gives Phillips perfect storm to make a move with low cost draft selection. He had no choice but to adjust his scheme to utylize Cody and Mitchell. He will now have a choice.

beerlover
12-30-2012, 09:51 AM
Speaking for myself only, I try to target who I feel are impact players. Which there should be a higher degree of competence in relationship to specific draft grade. Hence a first round pick should net most immediate (usually need) & long term result (based against peers) :)

Just to expound on post in a little more detail, need is a primary decision maker however you choose to view it. Key is to identify the best player available for your position of need, he will naturally fit (like JJ Watt) to become a successful player in system. In my example, Short, best player available @ position of need is off the board by time Texans select, I move onto next best player available @ position of need. Free agency is always on the back burner & can impact need/pick. Following this train of thought, if Quin is not resigned, SS becomes a bigger need, at the same time I would try to actually upgrade position. Suddenly Texas, SS, Kenny Vaccaro becomes my target. He is the complete package & could become more than solid, possibly elite? Two examples, of two different first round grades/prospects who fill specific need for Texans. Its a fluid process & what makes accurate player evaluation so important as team needs evolve.

BL :wesmantexanfan:

Corrosion
12-30-2012, 11:48 AM
Just to expound on post in a little more detail, need is a primary decision maker however you choose to view it. Key is to identify the best player available for your position of need, he will naturally fit (like JJ Watt) to become a successful player in system. In my example, Short, best player available @ position of need is off the board by time Texans select, I move onto next best player available @ position of need. Free agency is always on the back burner & can impact need/pick. Following this train of thought, if Quin is not resigned, SS becomes a bigger need, at the same time I would try to actually upgrade position. Suddenly Texas, SS, Kenny Vaccaro becomes my target. He is the complete package & could become more than solid, possibly elite? Two examples, of two different first round grades/prospects who fill specific need for Texans. Its a fluid process & what makes accurate player evaluation so important as team needs evolve.

BL :wesmantexanfan:

I dont disagree with this at all .... and why at this point in time I dont have NT high on my list.
Right now we just dont know what spots we will have to fill but considering the possible volume of losses in the secondary , thats my focus for thew time being.

This far out things can change in a dime.

steelbtexan
12-30-2012, 12:20 PM
Couldn't agree more. This is how I always approach the draft. Don't understand why people lock in on certain positions every round. Just because you see a certain position as the biggest need doesn't mean that has to be your first pick.

This is why I would go with a WR in rd 1. Not only is WR a need but there should be a high level talent WR when the Texans are picking.

Corrosion
12-30-2012, 12:46 PM
This is why I would go with a WR in rd 1. Not only is WR a need but there should be a high level talent WR when the Texans are picking.

Im torn between WR & CB.

badboy
12-30-2012, 05:13 PM
Im torn between WR & CB.WR for me as I expected more from Posey and Jean today. If you are open, Qb will throw it at you, maybe not to you but over or under you.


After Colts, Mitchell starts over Cody next game.

leebigeztx
12-30-2012, 05:28 PM
The texans need to seriously think about a qb in the 2nd or 3rd. We see matt schaub and his warts along with the come up of luck. Even though he's a better qb than smith, it really hinders your team and playcaller with a physically limited qb. We can talk about all the other positions and they need attention also, but that qb spotis the most important one. In 2 yrs, that new qb needs to be ready to take over for matt.

steelbtexan
12-30-2012, 07:02 PM
I'm leaning more and more towards Bray in the 1st rd.

He has the ability to be a top 5 pick. If he wasn't a bit immature and had bad footwork he wouldn't be available at 27 or so. Thinking about it trading back into the 1st rd and picking Patterson to go with Bray would be an exciting duo for the next decade and help prolong AJ's career.


This will never happen with BoB/Rick/Gary in charge.

NCTexan
12-30-2012, 08:53 PM
I'm leaning more and more towards Bray in the 1st rd.

He has the ability to be a top 5 pick. If he wasn't a bit immature and had bad footwork he wouldn't be available at 27 or so. Thinking about it trading back into the 1st rd and picking Patterson to go with Bray would be an exciting duo for the next decade and help prolong AJ's career.


This will never happen with BoB/Rick/Gary in charge.

The kid is extremely immature. I don't think he'll mentally hold up in the NFL.

TimeKiller
12-30-2012, 09:51 PM
Didn't want to start a whole new thread over it but here's one I did with another WR 1st.


1- Da'Rick Rogers, WR, Tennessee Tech
6'3" 206 lbs., 4.52-40

Big time WR who falls because of character concerns (mary jane). I believe Andre can mentor him to be a pro, he will open up the offense for everyone else with his play making and the Texans offense will have it's next cornerstone.

2- Mike Glennon, QB, NC State
6'5" 232 lbs., 5.12-40

Scouting report reads he is in need of technique to better himself but when you see him play, he's a big, mobile QB who can sling it. With all respect to Yates and Schaub, the Texans need to start taking chances at getting big time QBs on the roster.

3- Cornellius (Tank) Carradine, DE, Florida State
6'4" 265 lbs., 4.75-40

Talented pass rusher who falls due to injury. May be the end of next year before he's fully healthy but I think he will upgrade the group and soften the blow if Barwin leaves. Definitely has a natural pass rushing ability and a great body to go with it, easily strong enough to handle the edge in the run game.

3a- Alvin Bailey, OG, Arkansas
6'5" 315 lbs., 5.32-40

Needs to improve pass protection but is a big, mobile guard who can get to the 2nd level and pancake defenders. Texans continue to add size and strength to their OL.

4- Zeke Motta, FS, Notre Dame
6'2" 215 lbs., 4.65-40

This is the first of many picks designed to improve the Texans' awful special teams. This isn't Teo or Nix but this guy did play an awful lot for a really good defense. Racked up a ton of tackles, certified run stopper in-the-box type who offers enough coverage ability to be the 3rd safety for the dime packages.

5- Kevin Reddick, ILB, North Carolina
6'2" 240 lbs., 4.75-40

I think this might be a little late to get him but here's another run stopper who plays aggresive, downhill, thumper LBer. Would boost special teams as well.

6- Dustin Hopkins, K, Florida State
6'2" 190 lbs., 4.78-40

The NCAA FBS all-time kick scorer with 459 points. Yes, please and thank you.

6a- Ryan Allen, P, Louisiana Tech
6'2" 215 lbs.

Boomer includes a long of 85 lol yes, please and thank you. Special teams upgrade, complete.

7- Philip Lutzenkirchen, TE, Auburn
6'4" 250 lbs., 4.82-40

Caught 44 passes, 14 were for TDs. Not very athletic but a decent blocker who is capable of lining up at H-back. Plus his last name is really cool.

steelbtexan
12-30-2012, 11:36 PM
The kid is extremely immature. I don't think he'll mentally hold up in the NFL.

34 TD's
12 Ints

Against SEC defenses, has big arm and is mobile enough. Think Big Ben

Terrible HC

IF throwing beer bottles at a car with your roommate is the worst thing that he did, then I must have been beyond immature in college.

I'm more worried about his footwork and film study habits. Like I said if there weren't risks he would be a top 5 pick.

What makes you think he wont mentally hold up? Are there things that I dont know about? I've watched a bunch of his games and Bray is extremely talented.

NCTexan
12-31-2012, 12:01 AM
34 TD's
12 Ints

Against SEC defenses, has big arm and is mobile enough. Think Big Ben

Terrible HC

IF throwing beer bottles at a car with your roommate is the worst thing that he did, then I must have been beyond immature in college.

I'm more worried about his footwork and film study habits. Like I said if there weren't risks he would be a top 5 pick.

What makes you think he wont mentally hold up? Are there things that I dont know about? I've watched a bunch of his games and Bray is extremely talented.

I think he has the physical tools for sure. It's more like what you mention with the film study habits. He just never comes off as wanting to really be the best to me. I remember (granted this was two years ago) the bowl game against UNC and how he acted during that. That sticks out in my mind.

If we somehow get him, I truly hope I am wrong. Like you said, he has the tools. Part of it is probably my disillusionment with the QB class this year. It seems really weak.


Edit: I am also pretty new at looking at college guys, so by no means do I mean to sound like an expert. I also haven't watched a ton on him, so I fully admit there is a high chance I am wrong.

badboy
01-01-2013, 12:46 PM
Didn't want to start a whole new thread over it but here's one I did with another WR 1st.


1- Da'Rick Rogers, WR, Tennessee Tech
6'3" 206 lbs., 4.52-40

Big time WR who falls because of character concerns (mary jane). I believe Andre can mentor him to be a pro, he will open up the offense for everyone else with his play making and the Texans offense will have it's next cornerstone.

2- Mike Glennon, QB, NC State
6'5" 232 lbs., 5.12-40

Scouting report reads he is in need of technique to better himself but when you see him play, he's a big, mobile QB who can sling it. With all respect to Yates and Schaub, the Texans need to start taking chances at getting big time QBs on the roster.

3- Cornellius (Tank) Carradine, DE, Florida State
6'4" 265 lbs., 4.75-40

Talented pass rusher who falls due to injury. May be the end of next year before he's fully healthy but I think he will upgrade the group and soften the blow if Barwin leaves. Definitely has a natural pass rushing ability and a great body to go with it, easily strong enough to handle the edge in the run game.

3a- Alvin Bailey, OG, Arkansas
6'5" 315 lbs., 5.32-40

Needs to improve pass protection but is a big, mobile guard who can get to the 2nd level and pancake defenders. Texans continue to add size and strength to their OL.

4- Zeke Motta, FS, Notre Dame
6'2" 215 lbs., 4.65-40

This is the first of many picks designed to improve the Texans' awful special teams. This isn't Teo or Nix but this guy did play an awful lot for a really good defense. Racked up a ton of tackles, certified run stopper in-the-box type who offers enough coverage ability to be the 3rd safety for the dime packages.

5- Kevin Reddick, ILB, North Carolina
6'2" 240 lbs., 4.75-40

I think this might be a little late to get him but here's another run stopper who plays aggresive, downhill, thumper LBer. Would boost special teams as well.

6- Dustin Hopkins, K, Florida State
6'2" 190 lbs., 4.78-40

The NCAA FBS all-time kick scorer with 459 points. Yes, please and thank you.

6a- Ryan Allen, P, Louisiana Tech
6'2" 215 lbs.

Boomer includes a long of 85 lol yes, please and thank you. Special teams upgrade, complete.

7- Philip Lutzenkirchen, TE, Auburn
6'4" 250 lbs., 4.82-40

Caught 44 passes, 14 were for TDs. Not very athletic but a decent blocker who is capable of lining up at H-back. Plus his last name is really cool.I'd be stunned if Texans drafted Da'Rick with his numerous drug incidents. I was a fan and thought it was just one time but research indicated at least 3 & IIRC 4. I think it was Kubiak that said if a player had one incident it might be overlooked. He did not seem to be limiting it to MJ or other drugs. Posey is an example.

Honoring Earl 34
01-01-2013, 12:55 PM
Didn't want to start a whole new thread over it but here's one I did with another WR 1st.


1- Da'Rick Rogers, WR, Tennessee Tech
6'3" 206 lbs., 4.52-40

Big time WR who falls because of character concerns (mary jane). I believe Andre can mentor him to be a pro, he will open up the offense for everyone else with his play making and the Texans offense will have it's next cornerstone.

2- Mike Glennon, QB, NC State
6'5" 232 lbs., 5.12-40

Scouting report reads he is in need of technique to better himself but when you see him play, he's a big, mobile QB who can sling it. With all respect to Yates and Schaub, the Texans need to start taking chances at getting big time QBs on the roster.

3- Cornellius (Tank) Carradine, DE, Florida State
6'4" 265 lbs., 4.75-40

Talented pass rusher who falls due to injury. May be the end of next year before he's fully healthy but I think he will upgrade the group and soften the blow if Barwin leaves. Definitely has a natural pass rushing ability and a great body to go with it, easily strong enough to handle the edge in the run game.

3a- Alvin Bailey, OG, Arkansas
6'5" 315 lbs., 5.32-40

Needs to improve pass protection but is a big, mobile guard who can get to the 2nd level and pancake defenders. Texans continue to add size and strength to their OL.

4- Zeke Motta, FS, Notre Dame
6'2" 215 lbs., 4.65-40

This is the first of many picks designed to improve the Texans' awful special teams. This isn't Teo or Nix but this guy did play an awful lot for a really good defense. Racked up a ton of tackles, certified run stopper in-the-box type who offers enough coverage ability to be the 3rd safety for the dime packages.

5- Kevin Reddick, ILB, North Carolina
6'2" 240 lbs., 4.75-40

I think this might be a little late to get him but here's another run stopper who plays aggresive, downhill, thumper LBer. Would boost special teams as well.

6- Dustin Hopkins, K, Florida State
6'2" 190 lbs., 4.78-40

The NCAA FBS all-time kick scorer with 459 points. Yes, please and thank you.

6a- Ryan Allen, P, Louisiana Tech
6'2" 215 lbs.

Boomer includes a long of 85 lol yes, please and thank you. Special teams upgrade, complete.

7- Philip Lutzenkirchen, TE, Auburn
6'4" 250 lbs., 4.82-40

Caught 44 passes, 14 were for TDs. Not very athletic but a decent blocker who is capable of lining up at H-back. Plus his last name is really cool.

Hopkins kicked for Clear Lake HS .

Wolf6151
01-09-2013, 02:46 AM
Here's Walters current mock as of 01-09-13.

1. Kevin Minter-ILB
2. Robert Woods-WR
3. Montee Ball-RB
4. Brian Winters-OT

I don't agree with his picks for us, but he does select some pretty good talent for the Texans.

badboy
01-09-2013, 12:02 PM
Here's Walters current mock as of 01-09-13.

1. Kevin Minter-ILB
2. Robert Woods-WR
3. Montee Ball-RB
4. Brian Winters-OT

I don't agree with his picks for us, but he does select some pretty good talent for the Texans.I'd be ok with that. I was reviewing it yesterday. Minter is pretty solid and Woods could be awesom although shorter at 6'1" than I prefer. Has tendancies to allow ball through his hands and could have same problem in NFl looking for DB rather than ball. Montee is a puzzle for me. His stats are crazy good especially TDs. His injury seems not to effect his return but something tells me beware. Winters should be a solid player in future.

Corrosion
01-09-2013, 02:01 PM
I'd be ok with that. I was reviewing it yesterday. Minter is pretty solid and Woods could be awesom although shorter at 6'1" than I prefer. Has tendancies to allow ball through his hands and could have same problem in NFl looking for DB rather than ball. Montee is a puzzle for me. His stats are crazy good especially TDs. His injury seems not to effect his return but something tells me beware. Winters should be a solid player in future.

Those are some solid players .... but I'd be furious with that haul as it misses on most of the real needs this team will face going into the offseason.

That mock is .... amature at best. Its as if the writer only looks at statistics and doesnt know a thing about the team.

Not addressing the OL until the 4th round ?!

No DB thru 4 picks when they will have 5 of their top eight in the secondary become FA's ?!

What about the DL and OLB ?!

A RB that early when they have both Foster and Tate ..... this mock is a joke.

Dutchrudder
01-09-2013, 02:45 PM
Those are some solid players .... but I'd be furious with that haul as it misses on most of the real needs this team will face going into the offseason.

That mock is .... amature at best. Its as if the writer only looks at statistics and doesnt know a thing about the team.

Not addressing the OL until the 4th round ?!

No DB thru 4 picks when they will have 5 of their top eight in the secondary become FA's ?!

What about the DL and OLB ?!

A RB that early when they have both Foster and Tate ..... this mock is a joke.

I agree with this guy^

Terrible mock, nobody on this forum would bother making that crap. I really don't like the ILB in the 1st idea, we need something else there. ILB should be a 3-5 round priority.

badboy
01-09-2013, 04:29 PM
Those are some solid players .... but I'd be furious with that haul as it misses on most of the real needs this team will face going into the offseason.

That mock is .... amature at best. Its as if the writer only looks at statistics and doesnt know a thing about the team.

Not addressing the OL until the 4th round ?!

No DB thru 4 picks when they will have 5 of their top eight in the secondary become FA's ?!

What about the DL and OLB ?!

A RB that early when they have both Foster and Tate ..... this mock is a joke.I would not make those picks but can understand the mock. I think ILB is a need priority but can be accomplished later round. Minter will be a good pick.

Oline does not need to be addressed until later but I am looking at bpa in 2/3 for one or the other. My problem is I want a WR2, NT, ILB, in top 4 picks. That can be done. I want to then utilyze the other pick for next best player. I have a OLB Travis Long (knee) in 4th and OLB Quanterus Smith (knee) in 7th. Both should be healthy by TC but Smith is high risk/high reward. Not sure if I am over ranking Long. I have a CB/FS Darrius Slay but may have to move him to at least 4th after combine. Joseph & KJ + Harris nails that down and I think Slay is perfect backup IF Carmichael is not ready. I see Slay as perfect safety to back up Manning and Quin who I do think will be resigned.

DL: we are okay here with starters returning and Crick looking very good. My NT and Mitchell who looked very good last game closes need for any help here although on mock I am working, I do select ND's Kapron Lewis-Moore who I dropped to 7 due to knee injury against Alabama.

OL: here is where I disagree with most of you.
OG first. Wade Smith finishes his last contract year here 2013 with Brooks at RG. Jones moves to backup center where he belongs. We then replace Smith with either Brooks or a draft pick now or 2014 (leaving Brooks RG). If I go OG now Alvin Brooks is perfect fit and can play either side. Again OG 2013 draft or '14?

OT: I like Newton at RT in his second full year with Brooks RG. I think a draft pick that could develop would be all needed. I am not satisfied with Ryan Harris but recovery from his back injury could have impacted his play. Gardner did better than I expected. If we are only looking for a back up swing, is FA and option? Is Rashad Butler an option?

In summary:

1. WR Patterson and Terrance Williams have switched places recently as Patterson was ranked apprx 47 and Williams 24. Now it is just the opposite with season over, not sure I understand why. Did they find new game film? I would take either in heart beat.

2. OT Menelik Watson surprised all by declaring early. He needs seasoning under a good coach but where better than behind Newton? If he can beat Derek out, so be it. Excellent link for those who do not know his history. Good read on this 6'6 320 manster. http://espn.go.com/colleges/fsu/football/story/_/id/8399858/menelik-watson-endured-strange-journey-florida-state-seminoles

3A NT Brandon Williams ok I think he could be there in 4th but I like & need is there and if gone, my dire need is not filled.
3B ILB Andrew Jackson best LB available and is a tackling machine. Most have read my link on Alabama's Saban's comments. *Williams does go into coverage.
4. OLB Travis Long (may need to lower due to injury)
5A FS/CB Darrius Slay plays both well & moving up boards. Quin will be resigned.
5B TE Michael Williams
5C C/OG Mario Benavidez 6'4 304 Ben Jones type.
6 RB Cierre Wood has dropped due to offense be mauled by Alabama. Still a good choice here.
7A OLB Quanterus Smith falls this low due to knee injury. WKU senior that has 12.5 sacks before knee. Risk/reward at this round is perfect. May need 2013 to heal.
7B DE Kapron Lewis-Moore fell one round due to knee injury against the Tide.

Rey
01-09-2013, 04:43 PM
Minter is an average player.

badboy
01-09-2013, 04:57 PM
Minter is an average player.Disagree.

Hagar
01-09-2013, 06:29 PM
Help me out here, fill in my blanks:

1- Cordarelle Patterson, WR
2- Aboushi/Long, OT
3- Marcus Lattimore, RB
3a-__________________ , DB?
4- Josh Dworaczyk - LSU, OG
5-____________________ , LB?
6-_____________________ , TE?
7-_____________________ , QB?

Full disclosure: Josh is my cousin, so I'm a little partial to us picking him.

Currently, most of the draft boards show Josh as a late round to UDFA prospect. Its my belief that Josh will start for an NFL team one day no matter where he's drafted.

Rey
01-09-2013, 07:36 PM
Disagree.

That's fine.

Teo is a little above average. Weak overall draft for mlb's. Last year would have been a better year to take one.

mussop
01-09-2013, 07:52 PM
I agree with this guy^

Terrible mock, nobody on this forum would bother making that crap. I really don't like the ILB in the 1st idea, we need something else there. ILB should be a 3-5 round priority.

Disagree. That's some solid talent. ILB is a bigger need than some of you guys realize. Other than Cushing the rest of our ILBs are garbage. Factor in the relentless way that Cushing plays and we need depth there in a bad way. This defense would be SO MUCH BETTER if the middle was fixed. Right now we get virtually no pressure up the middle from our ILBs or DT. this is why our OLBs sacks are down.

And as far as the OL goes, it's a difficult system to jump in and be effective right away. Remember how many people here were calling for Meyers head when he first arrived? Smith wasn't a world beater either at first. Not to mention this teams philosophy and history on drafting OL suggest we won't be drafting one early. If we do do you really think he would come in and start right away? Look where we are drafting.

ILB is a need. So is DT and the secondary. You take the best available that fill needs and you can't really go wrong.

mussop
01-09-2013, 07:55 PM
That's fine.

Teo is a little above average. Weak overall draft for mlb's. Last year would have been a better year to take one.

Teo is over rated. I agree that it is a weak year for ILB. That doesn't mean there aren't some good ones that would upgrade this defense. I'm liking Kiko in the fourth round. Either of the Stanford boys in the third.

Dutchrudder
01-09-2013, 08:38 PM
Disagree. That's some solid talent. ILB is a bigger need than some of you guys realize. Other than Cushing the rest of our ILBs are garbage. Factor in the relentless way that Cushing plays and we need depth there in a bad way. This defense would be SO MUCH BETTER if the middle was fixed. Right now we get virtually no pressure up the middle from our ILBs or DT. this is why our OLBs sacks are down.

And as far as the OL goes, it's a difficult system to jump in and be effective right away. Remember how many people here were calling for Meyers head when he first arrived? Smith wasn't a world beater either at first. Not to mention this teams philosophy and history on drafting OL suggest we won't be drafting one early. If we do do you really think he would come in and start right away? Look where we are drafting.

ILB is a need. So is DT and the secondary. You take the best available that fill needs and you can't really go wrong.

Teo is over rated. I agree that it is a weak year for ILB. That doesn't mean there aren't some good ones that would upgrade this defense. I'm liking Kiko in the fourth round. Either of the Stanford boys in the third.


It's funny how you can disagree with such a short post, and then essentially agree with it in your next post 3 minutes later. Thanks for the laugh :)

mussop
01-09-2013, 08:48 PM
It's funny how you can disagree with such a short post, and then essentially agree with it in your next post 3 minutes later. Thanks for the laugh :)

Don't really see how I did that. Minter is worth a first round pick and plays a position of need. That doesn't change the fact that It is a weak overall draft at ILB. You stated ILB shouldn't be chosen in the first. How in my post did I contradict the statement I made that it is?

Dutchrudder
01-09-2013, 09:07 PM
Don't really see how I did that. Minter is worth a first round pick and plays a position of need. That doesn't change the fact that It is a weak overall draft at ILB. You stated ILB shouldn't be chosen in the first. How in my post did I contradict the statement I made that it is?

Well, you didn't mention Minter by name at all, so I assumed you were talking about all 4 of the picks. In any case, the guys you specifically said you wanted are 3rd/4th round picks, and that's exactly where I placed the priority of this position.

Just because I don't want Minter in the 1st doesn't mean I don't want an ILB. I do think it's a position of need, but it's certainly not our top priority. I think the value for that position, and weighing it against the need within the Texans' D, it should be a 3-5 round pick. Also have to consider the talent of the other positions that could be chosen in the 1st, such as WR. The WRs you could get at the end of the 1st are far more talented than those in the 3-5 rounds, unlike the ILBs. Personally I would prefer a WR like Patterson, Hunter, Allen or Williams and a ILB like Jackson, Alonso or Reddick in the 3rd. I don't think the drop from Minter to any of those guys is nearly as large as the drop from the WRs to the guys that will be there in the 3-5 rounds.

steelbtexan
01-09-2013, 09:49 PM
Disagree. That's some solid talent. ILB is a bigger need than some of you guys realize. Other than Cushing the rest of our ILBs are garbage. Factor in the relentless way that Cushing plays and we need depth there in a bad way. This defense would be SO MUCH BETTER if the middle was fixed. Right now we get virtually no pressure up the middle from our ILBs or DT. this is why our OLBs sacks are down.

And as far as the OL goes, it's a difficult system to jump in and be effective right away. Remember how many people here were calling for Meyers head when he first arrived? Smith wasn't a world beater either at first. Not to mention this teams philosophy and history on drafting OL suggest we won't be drafting one early. If we do do you really think he would come in and start right away? Look where we are drafting.

ILB is a need. So is DT and the secondary. You take the best available that fill needs and you can't really go wrong.

Have youwatched the offense the last month and a half? While I agree the defense could use upgrades, the defense is atleast serviceable if not better. They didn't give up a TD against the bengals in a playoff game. I think they probably will get torched a bit by Brady because that is what Brady does. The Texans need to score more TD's. This is why I would like to see them go all offense in rds 1-5. Good news is WR/OL are deep positions in this yrs draft.

Rd.1 Hunter, Williams or Patterson will fall to 28/32.
Rd.2 Bray, Best arm in draft. 32 TD's -15 ints
Rd. 3 Kyle Long, Has athletic skill and temperment to be a massive upgrade on the OL. If I had to trade up to get him I would.

Then turn to defense with the supp picks. I rank S as the biggest need due to the fact that the defense plays 60% nickle and Demps is the nickle defenses biggest weakness. IMHO There should be a really good S like Rambo or Duke Williams there with the supp 3rd rd pick.

beerlover
01-09-2013, 10:39 PM
Bradie James, Tim Dobbins, Barrett Rudd are football players just not great ones anymore. If Cushing was still out there ILB would be considered a luxury pick. But with that said, he is not & now we need to target one probably sooner than we like. Middle of the second seems to be a sweet spot for this position to still find a star player. Tried to fit Bobby Wagner into a mock draft last year but where he fell & Texans selected are two different things. Either slot him in way early, like first round, or cross your fingers & hope to get lucky end of 2nd round. It's always a tough call to make. Trading down or up are always discouraged practice in mock drafts.

Also interesting to note that elite ILB positional players rarely hit the open market, which is why Texans will lock up Cushing. While players available will be the James, Dobbins & Rudd of the world. Making free agency almost a non-option. So in a nutshell Texans will probably have to reach for one.

This is what I feel is fair value for top LB each round to Texans. However if Texans stand pat & don't adjust their position, other than compensatory pick coming from Mario (Kiko is a natural fit in that late 3rd range) or compensatory pick in fifth (Mauti in conjunction with Kiko) Texans will have to pay a premium price for rest (only consider thru 2nd day picks as premium). Which means the big three are Alec, probably requires trading up, Minter should be that mid second rd. grade & Jackson is the wildcard, cross your fingers & hope he is there.

First Round: Alec Ogeltree, Georgia, 6030 240

Second Round: Kevin Minter, LSU, 6010 245

Third Round: Andrew Jackson, Western Kentucky, 6010 262

Fourth Round: Kiko Alonzo, Oregon, 6030 242

Fifth Round: A.J. Klein, Iowa State, 6010 244

Sixth Round: Michael Mauti, Penn State, 6020 245 (coming off season ending surgery)

Seventh Round: Greg Blair, Cincinnati, 6020 252

steelbtexan
01-09-2013, 10:48 PM
Bradie James, Tim Dobbins, Barrett Rudd are football players just not great ones anymore. If Cushing was still out there ILB would be considered a luxury pick. But with that said, he is not & now we need to target one probably sooner than we like. Middle of the second seems to be a sweet spot for this position to still find a star player. Tried to fit Bobby Wagner into a mock draft last year but where he fell & Texans selected are two different things. Either slot him in way early, like first round, or cross your fingers & hope to get lucky end of 2nd round. It's always a tough call to make. Trading down or up are always discouraged practice in mock drafts.

Also interesting to note that elite ILB positional players rarely hit the open market, which is why Texans will lock up Cushing. While players available will be the James, Dobbins & Rudd of the world. Making free agency almost a non-option. So in a nutshell Texans will probably have to reach for one.

This is what I feel is fair value for top LB each round to Texans. However if Texans stand pat & don't adjust their position, other than compensatory pick coming from Mario (Kiko is a natural fit in that late 3rd range) or compensatory pick in fifth (Mauti in conjunction with Kiko) Texans will have to pay a premium price for rest (only consider thru 2nd day picks as premium). Which means the big three are Alec, probably requires trading up, Minter should be that mid second rd. grade & Jackson is the wildcard, cross your fingers & hope he is there.

First Round: Alec Ogeltree, Georgia, 6030 240

Second Round: Kevin Minter, LSU, 6010 245

Third Round: Andrew Jackson, Western Kentucky, 6010 262

Fourth Round: Kiko Alonzo, Oregon, 6030 242

Fifth Round: A.J. Klein, Iowa State, 6010 244

Sixth Round: Michael Mauti, Penn State, 6020 245 (coming off season ending surgery)

Seventh Round: Greg Blair, Cincinnati, 6020 252

I truly believe there is not much difference in those LB's, regardless of Rd.

Give me Alonso in the 4th and Mauti in the 6th for best value. Although I really think Klein will be a Gary Spani type LB. (Solid Starter for 7-10 yrs, great ST guy)

badboy
01-10-2013, 09:00 AM
That's fine.

Teo is a little above average. Weak overall draft for mlb's. Last year would have been a better year to take one.

Mucho agree. lol

badboy
01-10-2013, 09:09 AM
Well, you didn't mention Minter by name at all, so I assumed you were talking about all 4 of the picks. In any case, the guys you specifically said you wanted are 3rd/4th round picks, and that's exactly where I placed the priority of this position.

Just because I don't want Minter in the 1st doesn't mean I don't want an ILB. I do think it's a position of need, but it's certainly not our top priority. I think the value for that position, and weighing it against the need within the Texans' D, it should be a 3-5 round pick. Also have to consider the talent of the other positions that could be chosen in the 1st, such as WR. The WRs you could get at the end of the 1st are far more talented than those in the 3-5 rounds, unlike the ILBs. Personally I would prefer a WR like Patterson, Hunter, Allen or Williams and a ILB like Jackson, Alonso or Reddick in the 3rd. I don't think the drop from Minter to any of those guys is nearly as large as the drop from the WRs to the guys that will be there in the 3-5 rounds.Eye to eye on the bolded. This is what keeps bringing me back to WR in first. Hunter has me stumped as he seems to effortlessly glide down field during games but in our offense he needs to be more "rugged" I guess is the word. Not sure NFL coaching/conditioning will correct that or his "want" to block. If Patterson & T Williams are gone in first, I'd probably look at Cobi Hamilton in second. I'd have to rethink my first.

badboy
01-10-2013, 09:21 AM
Help me out here, fill in my blanks:

1- Cordarelle Patterson, WR
2- Aboushi/Long, OT
3- Marcus Lattimore, RB
3a-__________________ , DB?
4- Josh Dworaczyk - LSU, OG
5-____________________ , LB?
6-_____________________ , TE?
7-_____________________ , QB?

Full disclosure: Josh is my cousin, so I'm a little partial to us picking him.

Currently, most of the draft boards show Josh as a late round to UDFA prospect. Its my belief that Josh will start for an NFL team one day no matter where he's drafted.Just some thoughts:

NT? Are you just gonna ignore one of the dire needs or do you think Cody will re-sign, get healthy and be better than he has for his contract?

LB: inside, outside or both? How do you evaluate needs?
Lattimore had a devastating injury, not sure I'd spend a 3rd, at least not 3 months from draft.

Nothing wrong with reaching for your cousin but 3-4 round reach is a bit. I did not see him offering much but TBH I did not focus on LSU Oline.

Finally, if you are going to include the comp for Mario in 3rd might as well speculate on the other 3 comps. Dutchrudder thinks we should have two extra fifths and a seventh. This sounds reasonable to others.

steelbtexan
01-10-2013, 09:36 AM
Just some thoughts:

NT? Are you just gonna ignore one of the dire needs or do you think Cody will re-sign, get healthy and be better than he has for his contract?

LB: inside, outside or both? How do you evaluate needs?
Lattimore had a devastating injury, not sure I'd spend a 3rd, at least not 3 months from draft.

Nothing wrong with reaching for your cousin but 3-4 round reach is a bit. I did not see him offering much but TBH I did not focus on LSU Oline.

Finally, if you are going to include the comp for Mario in 3rd might as well speculate on the other 3 comps. Dutchrudder thinks we should have two extra fifths and a seventh. This sounds reasonable to others.

Agree with you on Lattimore.

Since the nickle defense is on the field 60% of the time and Mitchell seems to be growing into the position, NT is a lower level priority for me. Although depth is needed. If Brandon Williams is there in the 3rd he would be my pick.

badboy
01-10-2013, 10:00 AM
Bradie James, Tim Dobbins, Barrett Rudd are football players just not great ones anymore. If Cushing was still out there ILB would be considered a luxury pick. But with that said, he is not & now we need to target one probably sooner than we like. Middle of the second seems to be a sweet spot for this position to still find a star player. Tried to fit Bobby Wagner into a mock draft last year but where he fell & Texans selected are two different things. Either slot him in way early, like first round, or cross your fingers & hope to get lucky end of 2nd round. It's always a tough call to make. Trading down or up are always discouraged practice in mock drafts.

Also interesting to note that elite ILB positional players rarely hit the open market, which is why Texans will lock up Cushing. While players available will be the James, Dobbins & Rudd of the world. Making free agency almost a non-option. So in a nutshell Texans will probably have to reach for one.

This is what I feel is fair value for top LB each round to Texans. However if Texans stand pat & don't adjust their position, other than compensatory pick coming from Mario (Kiko is a natural fit in that late 3rd range) or compensatory pick in fifth (Mauti in conjunction with Kiko) Texans will have to pay a premium price for rest (only consider thru 2nd day picks as premium). Which means the big three are Alec, probably requires trading up, Minter should be that mid second rd. grade & Jackson is the wildcard, cross your fingers & hope he is there.

First Round: Alec Ogeltree, Georgia, 6030 240

Second Round: Kevin Minter, LSU, 6010 245

Third Round: Andrew Jackson, Western Kentucky, 6010 262

Fourth Round: Kiko Alonzo, Oregon, 6030 242

Fifth Round: A.J. Klein, Iowa State, 6010 244

Sixth Round: Michael Mauti, Penn State, 6020 245 (coming off season ending surgery)

Seventh Round: Greg Blair, Cincinnati, 6020 252Draft Partner, you are right on target with your evaluations. I think the first three are starters day one, Alonzo not so soon but I would throw him in as much as possible next to Cush and let him learn. Couldn't be any worse than what we have.

badboy
01-10-2013, 10:11 AM
Agree with you on Lattimore.

Since the nickle defense is on the field 60% of the time and Mitchell seems to be growing into the position, NT is a lower level priority for me. Although depth is needed. If Brandon Williams is there in the 3rd he would be my pick.Mitchell's emergence is what convinced me to go with Brandon over Sylvester. As you notice above, I take care of the defensive middle in round three A&B. Now if I could get a trade down in first that would allow me to pick Patterson or T Will + a third I'd use with our own 5th and trade into second. Three seconds and two thirds!

Hagar
01-10-2013, 10:32 AM
Just some thoughts:

NT? Are you just gonna ignore one of the dire needs or do you think Cody will re-sign, get healthy and be better than he has for his contract?

LB: inside, outside or both? How do you evaluate needs?
Lattimore had a devastating injury, not sure I'd spend a 3rd, at least not 3 months from draft.

Nothing wrong with reaching for your cousin but 3-4 round reach is a bit. I did not see him offering much but TBH I did not focus on LSU Oline.

Finally, if you are going to include the comp for Mario in 3rd might as well speculate on the other 3 comps. Dutchrudder thinks we should have two extra fifths and a seventh. This sounds reasonable to others.I was just playing around and filling in the blank. I haven't even started thinking about the offseason yet.

Josh is a good young man with a bright future either as a player or as a coach. I you're interested here's and article about him. (http://www.shreveporttimes.com/article/20121229/SPORTS0202/121229010/LSU-veteran-Josh-Dworaczyk-doubled-fun-throughout-long-career)

I will say this, having watched LSU closely over the years, there's nothing average about Minter.

mussop
01-10-2013, 10:59 AM
Best thread in a long time. Lots of good discussion going on. Have replies after work.

beerlover
01-10-2013, 01:18 PM
Best thread in a long time. Lots of good discussion going on. Have replies after work.

Kinda like should I empty out the attic, sort out & throw away all my crap or just shove another box up there?