PDA

View Full Version : Who's better Schaub or A Smith?


mussop
12-25-2012, 02:19 PM
Let the games begin. :kingkong:

The case for Smith -

Smith led the 49ers to within a couple of plays from the Super Bowl. Smith threw only five interceptions all season (none in the playoffs) and finished in the top 10 in QB rating 2011.

This season Smith he was third in QB rating, behind Manning and Aaron Rodgers before he got injured and replaced. In his last full game he was 18-of-19 with three TDs setting an NFL record with a 94.7 completion percentage for a quarterback with a minimum of 15 attempts. He was named NFC Offensive Player of the Week for the first time two days later.. Before he was knocked out of the game against St. Louis, he was 7-of-8 with a TD and a passer rating of 143.8. Three of his five interceptions this season came in one game -- against the New York Giants, the defending Super Bowl champs. In fact he is 20-6-1 in the games he's started for Harbaugh.

Here's something interesting for all you STAT lovers. Smith owns a passer rating of 104.1, less than a point behind Aaron Rodgers (104.7) and Robert Griffin III (104.2).

The problem is He's ineligible for the passing rating crown and needs another seven attempts to climb back into the race. Smith also can improve upon his 70 percent completion rate and break Drew Brees' record (71.2) from a season ago if he completes nine of nine passes in the next game.

Not bad for a guy most around here say doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Schaub.

Texecutioner
12-25-2012, 02:34 PM
This isn't even a legit question.


And if you don't know the answer to it, then you probably shouldn't even be discussing QB's.

I have no idea when Alex Smith became this pro bowler to some people in here, but he's always been a bottom feeder in this league. They shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath.

Might as well ask who is better out of Andre Johnson or Kenny Britt?

Mr teX
12-25-2012, 02:34 PM
Why limit to just when he played under harbaugh? Lets talk about What his record was before then? Before last year he never had a qb rating over 90...he's never thrown for more than 20 td's in his career.....and if you've watched him play enough, he's a deer in the headlights more often than not...it says enough about him that harbaugh looked into bringing manning in and then turned around and put him on the bench after he was having such a good game.

Its not just stats dude.

Joeycharp89
12-25-2012, 02:34 PM
I like Smith and I think it sucks that he got benched. He's not as clutch as say an Aaron Rodgers of Peyton Manning, but he's a little more clutch than Schaub.

IlliniJen
12-25-2012, 02:37 PM
If you don't think Schaub's right for this team, that's understandable. But Alex Smith sure ain't any better for this team. Not an upgrade.

Kaiser Toro
12-25-2012, 02:38 PM
The all encompassing Schaub thread is nigh

Texecutioner
12-25-2012, 02:52 PM
I like Smith and I think it sucks that he got benched. He's not as clutch as say an Aaron Rodgers of Peyton Manning, but he's a little more clutch than Schaub.

Smith and clutch aren't even in the same sentence. He got benched because his own HC didn't have any faith in him even over a rookie. Smith has been benched like 4 times in his career by several coaches. Smith has never had one coach in his whole career that ever believed in him, so how in the hell do you even mention his name and clutch in the same sentence?? What because he had one great game against the Saints? No surprise that his HC tried to get Manning in the off season. Even after resigning Smith, he still benched him. Smith isn't even eligible to be more clutch then Schaub or any other perennial starter, because he's never even been a consistent starter or part of a good offense in his entire career.

ThaShark316
12-25-2012, 02:54 PM
Alex Smith ain't no MFin clutch.

Because the Saints left Vernon Davis wide open in the playoffs don't make you clutch.

GP
12-25-2012, 02:58 PM
They're the same guy, just one is a bit better than the other.

Schaub beats him out by a few notches. But not much.

The guy is average, and he has to have the perfect environment for success...just like his head coach. Two peas in a turtle pod.

Hey, we're better than the Jets and a lot of other teams, though. Though it appears we're getting worse as we go along. At this rate, unless the HC and his QB figure some things out...we're going to be 1 and done in the playoffs whether we have HFA or not.

Texecutioner
12-25-2012, 03:01 PM
They're the same guy, just one is a bit better than the other.

Schaub beats him out by a few notches. But not much.

The guy is average, and he has to have the perfect environment for success...just like his head coach. Two peas in a turtle pod.

Hey, we're better than the Jets and a lot of other teams, though. Though it appears we're getting worse as we go along. At this rate, unless the HC and his QB figure some things out...we're going to be 1 and done in the playoffs whether we have HFA or not.

The Texans passing game wasn't any good when our running game stunk a few years ago? Did you forget that Schaub led the league in passing yards?? What about the defense being the worst in the league where we constantly had to pass and other teams knew it?? That is not having a perfect environment at all. That is having a lot of things against you is what that is and Schaub did pretty well considering those circumstances.

Alex Smith has never been a good QB in his entire career. They aren't even close.

mussop
12-25-2012, 03:04 PM
Why limit to just when he played under harbaugh? Lets talk about What his record was before then? Before last year he never had a qb rating over 90...he's never thrown for more than 20 td's in his career.....and if you've watched him play enough, he's a deer in the headlights more often than not...it says enough about him that harbaugh looked into bringing manning in and then turned around and put him on the bench after he was having such a good game.

Its not just stats dude.

Where to start. hhmmm.. The last two years should be more than enough to show where he is at in his career and what he is capable of. The deer in the headlights comment is more fitting for Schaub in the Minnesota game than Smith's career. And finally Harbaugh did not bench Smith after he was having a good game. Smith was replaced when he left the game with a head injury.

mussop
12-25-2012, 03:07 PM
Smith and clutch aren't even in the same sentence. He got benched because his own HC didn't have any faith in him even over a rookie. Smith has been benched like 4 times in his career by several coaches. Smith has never had one coach in his whole career that ever believed in him, so how in the hell do you even mention his name and clutch in the same sentence?? What because he had one great game against the Saints? No surprise that his HC tried to get Manning in the off season. Even after resigning Smith, he still benched him. Smith isn't even eligible to be more clutch then Schaub or any other perennial starter, because he's never even been a consistent starter or part of a good offense in his entire career.

And Scaub is? And never been a consistent starter? 20-6-1 Doesn't show consistency?

thunderkyss
12-25-2012, 03:09 PM
Harbaugh, a QB... a QB guy... A QB guru handicapped Alex Smith. The guy he knew. The guy he worked with. The guy he made into a top level QB. Knowing he has an excellent opportunity to get to & win a Superbowl benched Alex Smith.

Kubiak, a QB... a QB guy.. A QB guru has faith in Matt Schaub. If Kubiak has handicapped Schaub in anyway, it is not to the extent that Smith has been. With an excellent opportunity to get to & win a Superbowl Kubiak couldn't wait to get Matt back.

Who's better? Who cares. One isn't trusted with the full playbook. The other is & has numbers thAt rivals the elite QBs

thunderkyss
12-25-2012, 03:13 PM
Where to start. hhmmm.. The last two years should be more than enough to show where he is at in his career and what he is capable of. The deer in the headlights comment is more fitting for Schaub in the Minnesota game than Smith's career. And finally Harbaugh did not bench Smith after he was having a good game. Smith was replaced when he left the game with a head injury.

Doesn't matter. Harbaugh decided to go with a guy he knew will make mistakes, possibly cost them a play-off berth. That's a benching if I ever saw one. The guy has little faith I. Smith.

mussop
12-25-2012, 03:19 PM
It's funny how all Schaubs supporters want to throw out STATS as evidence of how good he is yet when you show another well criticized QB and their good STATS suddenly STATS become meaningless. Schaub was at one point better than Smith. He isn't anymore. Every since his injury I would say without hesitation that Smith is at worst equal to Schaub.

Surreal McCoy
12-25-2012, 03:37 PM
Smith had one decent season in a largely forgettable career. There's no comparison as to who's better, well, not one that's within reason.

RagingBull
12-25-2012, 04:27 PM
I gotta go with Antonio Smith.

Marcus
12-25-2012, 04:32 PM
This isn't even a legit question.

And if you don't know the answer to it, then you probably shouldn't even be discussing QB's.

I have no idea when Alex Smith became this pro bowler to some people in here, but he's always been a bottom feeder in this league. They shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath.

Might as well ask who is better out of Andre Johnson or Kenny Britt?

I agree with this. The trend is moving to more of a mobility threatening type of QB and Schaub and Smith are neither of those. Harbaugh benching Smith in favor of Kaepernick, and the results from that move . . . well, it's a copy-cat league . . . and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Smith/Kubiak see the writing on the wall . . . and go for that type of quarterback, especially if the season goes up in flames.

Goatcheese
12-25-2012, 04:57 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-UYuQQKwoB4I/UFCn90CO4vI/AAAAAAAAAOk/lfM1U65AhmM/s1600/DUDE-WTF-IS-WRONG-WITH-YOU.jpg
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/22534119.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/Rora/what-is-wrong-with-you.jpg
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/29306618.jpg
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/28672997.jpg

Mr teX
12-25-2012, 07:17 PM
Where to start. hhmmm.. The last two years should be more than enough to show where he is at in his career and what he is capable of. The deer in the headlights comment is more fitting for Schaub in the Minnesota game than Smith's career. And finally Harbaugh did not bench Smith after he was having a good game. Smith was replaced when he left the game with a head injury.


Lol, You try to downplay stats yet the only reasonable thing you can use to even attempt to put him on schaub's level is a stat....and its not even a stat that he can fully adopt as his own...its a team stat..

you are beyond reasoning and any kind of sound logic.....good day sir:tiphat:

Playoffs
12-25-2012, 07:22 PM
It's not Smith. http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e316/Soizic22/a%20smilie/laugh-1.gif

thunderkyss
12-25-2012, 08:49 PM
It's funny how all Schaubs supporters want to throw out STATS as evidence of how good he is yet when you show another well criticized QB and their good STATS suddenly STATS become meaningless.

I know you're not talking 'bout me, since stats was a small part of my argument. However, since you posted this comment directly after two of my posts, I feel I must respond.

Actually, I'll just repeat my point from the above mentioned posts.

The man who should have the most faith in Smith ditched him for a guy who had never started an NFL game in his life... & Harbaugh knows QBs.

There is absolutely nothing stopping Kubiak, another guy who knows QBs, from pursuing any QB he'd like. He double downed on Matt Schaub.

76Texan
12-25-2012, 09:06 PM
If you like Smith, you can make a case for him.
Some of the Niners fans want him back because they don't believe Kaepernick can be all that. He already has a nickname "Krapernicker".

Those who support CK point out that he's still young; that Smith can never carry a team.

So even if you don't like Schaub, you also ought to know that Smith is not an upgrade.

It's all good and well trying to find a solution, but that solution has to make a lot of sense to be considered as viable; otherwise, we will just go round and round with a QB carousel.

DocBar
12-25-2012, 09:51 PM
Just plain dumb. :pinned:

Norg
12-25-2012, 10:10 PM
schaub is like a eight and smith is A SEVEN not worth it i say find another qb project

TEXANRED
12-25-2012, 10:14 PM
nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

Texan_Bill
12-25-2012, 10:21 PM
schaub is like a eight and smith is A SEVEN not worth it i say find another qb project

:mcnugget:

Norg, You've been around a long time and I still can't cipher you....

*****************

No matter, a discussion with Alex Smith and Matt Scaub is funny... at BEST!!

Could Alex Smith run Kubiak's offense?? Sure he could!

Could Alex Smith run Kubiak's offense better than Schaub??? Maybe.... Maybe someday.

Could Alex Smith run Kubiak's offense better this season or next??? NO WAY IN HELL!!!

To think otherwise, well, is pretty much the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

:voodoo:

Texan_Bill
12-25-2012, 10:22 PM
nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you shorten that a bit??? You know, to shorten the screen wideness, (if you will)

;)

mussop
12-25-2012, 10:36 PM
I started this thread to prove a point. First, the Schaub supporters constantly use STATS as proof Schaub is just below elite. If STATS are proof positive then Smith has been a top 5 QB the last couple of years.

Also they want to point to W's and L's as to how good Schaub is. I'm constantly seeing 12 -3 as if that is all they need to prove their point. Well Smith is 20-6-1 in the last 2 years. Does that mean he is elite? That record is right up there with the best of them.


Now that that is settled, what has Schaub done that makes him so good. What has he done the lsat two years that makes him better than A Smith?

ThaShark316
12-25-2012, 10:38 PM
I started this thread to prove a point. First, the Schaub supporters constantly use STATS as proof Schaub is just below elite. If STATS are proof positive then Smith has been a top 5 QB the last couple of years.

Also they want to point to W's and L's as to how good Schaub is. I'm constantly seeing 12 -3 as if that is all they need to prove their point. Well Smith is 20-6-1 in the last 2 years. Does that mean he is elite? That record is right up there with the best of them.


Now that that is settled, what has Schaub done that makes him so good. What has he done the lsat two years that makes him better than A Smith?

Not get benched. http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5719/xzbitlol.png

mussop
12-25-2012, 10:38 PM
I know you're not talking 'bout me, since stats was a small part of my argument. However, since you posted this comment directly after two of my posts, I feel I must respond.

Actually, I'll just repeat my point from the above mentioned posts.

The man who should have the most faith in Smith ditched him for a guy who had never started an NFL game in his life... & Harbaugh knows QBs.

There is absolutely nothing stopping Kubiak, another guy who knows QBs, from pursuing any QB he'd like. He double downed on Matt Schaub.

No Fiddler I was not directing that at you. It was actually put out there because of several posters in another thread all together. Actually a couple of threads.

mussop
12-25-2012, 10:42 PM
Not get benched. http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5719/xzbitlol.png

Only because we don't have a backup that is ready to take over for a QB that is clearly on decline. :barman:

ThaShark316
12-25-2012, 10:48 PM
Only because we don't have a backup that is ready to take over for a QB that is clearly on decline. :barman:

But Kaepernick and Yates are both second year QBs....


Colin's starts before Smith's concussion = 0 http://imageshack.us/a/img607/8082/kobeohhhhhno.png

Nawzer
12-25-2012, 10:50 PM
OK I'm not a big fan of Matt Schaub, but there's no way I think Alex Smith is better than him.

Texan_Bill
12-25-2012, 10:52 PM
Not get benched. http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5719/xzbitlol.png

:spit:

mussop
12-25-2012, 11:00 PM
But Kaepernick and Yates are both second year QBs....


Colin's starts before Smith's concussion = 0 http://imageshack.us/a/img607/8082/kobeohhhhhno.png

Just shows how bad Yates really is.

ObsiWan
12-25-2012, 11:15 PM
Not get benched. http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5719/xzbitlol.png
:lol:
that's funny, no matter which side of the "discussion" you're on.
repped

thunderkyss
12-25-2012, 11:34 PM
Could Alex Smith run Kubiak's offense?? Sure he could!

Could Alex Smith run Kubiak's offense better than Schaub??? Maybe.... Maybe someday.

Could Alex Smith run Kubiak's offense better this season or next??? NO WAY IN HELL!!!

To think otherwise, well, is pretty much the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

:voodoo:

I don't think these guys want to trade Schaub for Alex now. They've already given up on this season & are looking towards next year & beyond.

Corrosion
12-26-2012, 12:10 AM
:mcnugget:

Norg, You've been around a long time and I still can't cipher you....

*****************

No matter, a discussion with Alex Smith and Matt Scaub is funny... at BEST!!

Could Alex Smith run Kubiak's offense?? Sure he could!

Could Alex Smith run Kubiak's offense better than Schaub??? Maybe.... Maybe someday.

Could Alex Smith run Kubiak's offense better this season or next??? NO WAY IN HELL!!!

To think otherwise, well, is pretty much the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

:voodoo:

I think Norg posts drunk ..... drunk like us at the titty bra.


As for this Schaub / Smith debate , I think they are equally limited but Smith has better mobility and a little stronger arm. Schaubs strengths are the mental part of the game and his ball handling (fakes).

If you look at those two offenses and their coaches .... they are pretty much mirror images of one another.

Running game - Defense - Ball Control - Limit mistakes - Play action.


Imagine a QB who could extend plays and make the deep throws with some zip while doing all those little things in this offense and how much Gary could open up the playbook .... 3rd in the league in scoring with a noodle armed statue unde center.

Hell , just take a look at that Rookie QB in DC who leads the #5 offense in the NFL for an example. He's making some rookie mistakes and they are still one of the best offenses in the game.

Norg
12-26-2012, 12:33 AM
:mcnugget:

Norg, You've been around a long time and I still can't cipher you....

*****************

No matter, a discussion with Alex Smith and Matt Scaub is funny... at BEST!!

Could Alex Smith run Kubiak's offense?? Sure he could!

Could Alex Smith run Kubiak's offense better than Schaub??? Maybe.... Maybe someday.

Could Alex Smith run Kubiak's offense better this season or next??? NO WAY IN HELL!!!

To think otherwise, well, is pretty much the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

:voodoo:

typed that from my phone .. LOl what i meant was SMith is no better then Schaub so i say NO in bringing in Alex next year

Goatcheese
12-26-2012, 02:33 AM
Alex Smith is about the same as Matt Schaub.

Said no football analyst ever.

mussop
12-26-2012, 02:39 AM
If you like Smith, you can make a case for him.
Some of the Niners fans want him back because they don't believe Kaepernick can be all that. He already has a nickname "Krapernicker".

Those who support CK point out that he's still young; that Smith can never carry a team.

So even if you don't like Schaub, you also ought to know that Smith is not an upgrade.

It's all good and well trying to find a solution, but that solution has to make a lot of sense to be considered as viable; otherwise, we will just go round and round with a QB carousel.

I never suggested we go after Smith. Not this year or next. Just asked a simple question. Who's better Schaub or Smith? I would love to here a reasonable answer from one of the Schaub supporters why. What makes him so much better than Smith. So far not one has been able to do that. Just smart ass attempts at humor or insults as if its a rediculous question.

In other words they can't come up with legit reason why they think Schaub is so much better.

mussop
12-26-2012, 02:43 AM
Alex Smith ain't no MFin clutch.

Because the Saints left Vernon Davis wide open in the playoffs don't make you clutch.

And Schaub is?

Mr teX
12-26-2012, 07:03 AM
I never suggested we go after Smith. Not this year or next. Just asked a simple question. Who's better Schaub or Smith? I would love to here a reasonable answer from one of the Schaub supporters why. What makes him so much better than Smith. So far not one has been able to do that. Just smart ass attempts at humor or insults as if its a rediculous question.

In other words they can't come up with legit reason why they think Schaub is so much better.

You're so delusional its not even funny...there have been no less than 3-4 reasons in this thread alone....you just refuse to acknowledge.....pathetic really.

amazing80
12-26-2012, 07:16 AM
The Texans passing game wasn't any good when our running game stunk a few years ago? Did you forget that Schaub led the league in passing yards?? What about the defense being the worst in the league where we constantly had to pass and other teams knew it?? That is not having a perfect environment at all. That is having a lot of things against you is what that is and Schaub did pretty well considering those circumstances.

Alex Smith has never been a good QB in his entire career. They aren't even close.

This right here is the ONLY reason why he led the league in yards. Our run game was terrible so we had no choice but to throw it. This doesn't mean Schaub was great it means he padded stats.

Hervoyel
12-26-2012, 08:19 AM
I want an upgrade to Matt Schaub not a replacement for replacements sake. I think Alex Smith could do some things better than Schaub and other things not nearly as good. It would be a wash once all the upheaval was over and that result wouldn't be worth making the change to begin with.

Now, Alex has one thing going for him that I don't see in Schaub and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Smith has bounced from one system to another since he got in the league and come out the other side of it still capable of playing at this level. Matt's been lucky in that for the duration of his career as a starter he's had one coach, one system, and stability like most guys never get to enjoy. I'd love to know what Alex Smith turns out like if he goes to some place like Green Bay where Rogers went and gets that kind of coaching.

I guess what I mean by this last point is that I think Matt is the best he can be. We've seen him develop in a stable system that is tailored to his abilities and avoids his shortcomings. Alex Smith didn't have that and I think he kind of gets the benefit of the doubt right now because in Harbaugh's system he's been really solid. It doesn't make any difference to us here today in 2012 though. It's more speculation and wondering whether Smith would have turned out differently.

Mr teX
12-26-2012, 09:06 AM
I want an upgrade to Matt Schaub not a replacement for replacements sake. I think Alex Smith could do some things better than Schaub and other things not nearly as good. It would be a wash once all the upheaval was over and that result wouldn't be worth making the change to begin with.

Now, Alex has one thing going for him that I don't see in Schaub and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Smith has bounced from one system to another since he got in the league and come out the other side of it still capable of playing at this level. Matt's been lucky in that for the duration of his career as a starter he's had one coach, one system, and stability like most guys never get to enjoy. I'd love to know what Alex Smith turns out like if he goes to some place like Green Bay where Rogers went and gets that kind of coaching.

I guess what I mean by this last point is that I think Matt is the best he can be. We've seen him develop in a stable system that is tailored to his abilities and avoids his shortcomings. Alex Smith didn't have that and I think he kind of gets the benefit of the doubt right now because in Harbaugh's system he's been really solid. It doesn't make any difference to us here today in 2012 though. It's more speculation and wondering whether Smith would have turned out differently.


The bolded is actually a good point in his favor but people need to put things in perspective. He doesn't throw a ton of ints partly b/c coaches...even harbaugh, haven't trusted him to the throw the ball. 3 ints in 445 attempts sounds nice but its still not all that impressive when you consider that there are at least 2 rookie qbs this year who have or will have thrown the ball more times than he did all of last season....& that's excluding Andrew Luck (599 att).......i'm talking guys like Tannehill and Weeden. The average total attempts for the league is probably somewhere around 500-515 attempts. Reagardless of the regime that's been in place, noone trusts him to air it out.


& again, what it comes back to with him is that this guy was still benched by his coach a season after an NFC championship appearance. That imo says more than any stat or any particular fan's feeling are towards him. & if you've watched the 49ers offense since Kap has been at the helm and compare it to how it was last year under Smith, the difference is stark...they are way more explosive with kap..much more so than they've ever been under Smith.

Rey
12-26-2012, 09:41 AM
The bolded is actually a good point in his favor but people need to put things in perspective. He doesn't throw a ton of ints partly b/c coaches...even harbaugh, haven't trusted him to the throw the ball. 3 ints in 445 attempts sounds nice but its still not all that impressive when you consider that there are at least 2 rookie qbs this year who have or will have thrown the ball more times than he did all of last season....& that's excluding Andrew Luck (599 att).......i'm talking guys like Tannehill and Weeden. The average total attempts for the league is probably somewhere around 500-515 attempts. Reagardless of the regime that's been in place, noone trusts him to air it out.

Attempts have more to do with the style of offense and whether or not you are ahead or behind a bunch....Unless you're saying half the league trust their QB's more than Schaub.

Matt Schaub is in the bottom half of the league in attempts this year.

In 2010 Rodgers had 475 attempts. Schaub had 100 more. Do you think that had more to do with Green Bay being ahead a bunch or do you think we trusted our QB throwing more than Rodgers?

And btw, last year Schaub threw the ball about 1 whole more times per game than Alex Smith did.

But maybe you're right. Maybe it does have to do with trust. Hell, Kubiak doesn't even trust his QB to throw the ball on third and long and instead opts for the draw almost every time.

thunderkyss
12-26-2012, 09:43 AM
I want an upgrade to Matt Schaub not a replacement for replacements sake. I think Alex Smith could do some things better than Schaub and other things not nearly as good. It would be a wash once all the upheaval was over and that result wouldn't be worth making the change to begin with.

Now, Alex has one thing going for him that I don't see in Schaub and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Smith has bounced from one system to another since he got in the league and come out the other side of it still capable of playing at this level. Matt's been lucky in that for the duration of his career as a starter he's had one coach, one system, and stability like most guys never get to enjoy. I'd love to know what Alex Smith turns out like if he goes to some place like Green Bay where Rogers went and gets that kind of coaching.

I guess what I mean by this last point is that I think Matt is the best he can be. We've seen him develop in a stable system that is tailored to his abilities and avoids his shortcomings. Alex Smith didn't have that and I think he kind of gets the benefit of the doubt right now because in Harbaugh's system he's been really solid. It doesn't make any difference to us here today in 2012 though. It's more speculation and wondering whether Smith would have turned out differently.

You make some good points. Alex Smith's athleticism could add something to our game. But does he have it between the ears, or do you think his athleticism alone will make up for it?

I haven't seen anything from Alex Smith to make me think the net result would be better.

Think about it this way....... Alex Smith is less "talented" than David Carr. David put up good stats in this system, but we weren't going to win anything with David Carr.

thunderkyss
12-26-2012, 09:45 AM
Attempts have more to do with the style of offense and whether or not you are ahead or behind a bunch....Unless you're saying half the league trust their QB's more than Schaub.

Matt Schaub is in the bottom half of the league in attempts this year.

A lot of it also has to do with three & outs as well. Getting forced off the field limits snaps, which limits attempts.

Rey
12-26-2012, 09:49 AM
A lot of it also has to do with three & outs as well. Getting forced off the field limits snaps, which limits attempts.


Is that why Schaub's attmempts have him in the bottom half of the league this year?

Mr teX
12-26-2012, 10:07 AM
Attempts have more to do with the style of offense and whether or not you are ahead or behind a bunch....Unless you're saying half the league trust their QB's more than Schaub.

Matt Schaub is in the bottom half of the league in attempts this year.

In 2010 Rodgers had 475 attempts. Schaub had 100 more. Do you think that had more to do with Green Bay being ahead a bunch or do you think we trusted our QB throwing more than Rodgers?

And btw, last year Schaub threw the ball about 1 whole more times per game than Alex Smith did.

Strawman argument at it's finest

This is true................ to a point....what you're saying is fine for last year for smith, but how do you explain away the trend throughout his career of throwing the ball no more than 440 times? They just got good last year, so that playing from ahead argument doesn't apply to his previous teams b/c they've been trash offensively pretty much since he's been there. Opponents haven't feared him in the passing game so it doesn't really matter if they've been a run first team or not, they're stacking the box for gore...basically daring Smith to make plays in the pass game......and the coaches still haven't trusted him to sling it around.

& yeah schaub is in the bottom half this year but we've been a good running 1st team for 2 years now, yet schaub was still on pace to throw it 500+ times last year and has already eclipsed 500 attempts this year despite us more often than not playing from ahead and dominating TOP.

You guys try to downplay stats and say that they're only part of the story, which is true... but they mean more than what you guys wants to acknowledge; especially when you know what you're looking at & you combine them with what you're seeing in games.

mussop
12-26-2012, 10:10 AM
You're so delusional its not even funny...there have been no less than 3-4 reasons in this thread alone....you just refuse to acknowledge.....pathetic really.

Really? Then you shouldn't have any problem pointing them out because I haven't seen a legit one yet.

Rey
12-26-2012, 10:21 AM
Strawman argument at it's finest

This is true................ to a point....what you're saying is fine for last year for smith, but how do you explain away the trend throughout his career of throwing the ball no more than 440 times?

He's always had coaches that wanted a running team. He missed games due to being benched or injury. His coaches in the past weren't as good as harbaugh.

I don't understand how this is a strawman argument. Your argument is strawman. You're connecting dots that aren't there. Or you're connecting them based on what you want to be true.

I've given several possibilities, you've seen something and definitively said that he hasn't thrown the ball as much because he hasn't been trusted. There is no way in hell you can know that.

You used last year's stats as an example. Not me. I only commented on what you responded to which is the only 3 ints last year...remember that? That's where the conversation started, so why the hell would I talk about his previous years where his coaching obviously was sub par?

Mr teX
12-26-2012, 10:28 AM
Really? Then you shouldn't have any problem pointing them out because I haven't seen a legit one yet.

-His own coach benched him after his marvelous 20-6 record you keep touting

-As #1 overall pick 8 years in, he still hasn't had a 20 TD passing year ...that's basically a prequisite for being at least average

- Despite his big arm and mobility he doesn't throw the ball deep and he doesn't run around a whole lot...he doesn't even move around the pocket very well.

Those are about as legit as you trying to pass your opinion off about schaub as fact.

amazing80
12-26-2012, 10:34 AM
Alex Smith has way more TALENT than Schaub, but can't seem to get a break on the Niners. I will say that MAYBE he is not smart enough to grasp the offense thats why they moved on, but he has much physical ability than our boy does, no doubt.


That said, you don't move on from Matt to Alex Smith. Its a lateral move that would be pointless, at that point you allow Yates to try or you draft a qb.

dream_team
12-26-2012, 10:49 AM
I just showed some of my 9er fan friends this thread and they couldn't stop laughing. All of them would take Schaub over Smith or Kaep in a heartbeat.

Living in the SF Bay Area, I watch a lot of 9er games. Trust me, Alex Smith is not the answer for us, and not the answer for the 9ers. You guys blast Kubiak/Schaub for being conservative, Harbaugh/Smith are even more conservative. You guys blast Schaub for having a weak arm, Smith's arm is even weaker. You guys say Schaub has no poise in the pocket when there's pressure, Smith is even worse.

The only edge I give to Smith is his mobility.

Mr teX
12-26-2012, 10:51 AM
He's always had coaches that wanted a running team. He missed games due to being benched or injury. His coaches in the past weren't as good as harbaugh.

I don't understand how this is a strawman argument. Your argument is strawman. You're connecting dots that aren't there. Or you're connecting them based on what you want to be true.

I've given several possibilities, you've seen something and definitively said that he hasn't thrown the ball as much because he hasn't been trusted. There is no way in hell you can know that.

You used last year's stats as an example. Not me. I only commented on what you responded to which is the only 3 ints last year...remember that? That's where the conversation started, so why the hell would I talk about his previous years where his coaching obviously was sub par?

it's strawman b/c rather than address and retort the obvious things, you pick out a few anomalies and start talking about pass attempts per game. Smith's coaching was subpar but even with all that the guy still hasn't been able to get it done & that's undeniable. As much as people bash Kubiak around here about subpar coaching, Schaub has still been able to look very good over multiple years passing the ball...despite us being a run first team. Sam Bradford has had to deal with alot of the same issues in his career that Smith has over the years...he's still managed to look more adept at passing the ball than Smith has.

& the dots that i'm connecting have been confirmed by just about every freaking talking head imaginable &with the things Harbaugh is doing... His own coach has essentially confirmed it when he continued to keep the guy on the bench even after he recovered from his concussion despite his record the last few years....when he continued to shuttle Kapernick in on wildcat plays..... it was confirmed when Harbaugh tried to go after Manning this past off-season....even if it was just for a split second. His total passing attempts year by year is just icing on the cake as far as i'm concerned.

His past coaches didn't trust in him so they benched him.... his current coach doesn't trust in him as a guy that can sling it....don't see how this is even debateable. You don't do that to players you trust especially a qb......period.

& if you've watched this dude over his career, you can see that they have a very valid reason for not trusting him.

If any of you can address this above with a legit answer then i'd be more open to what you guys are saying..but as of now, you guys just casually step over that reason like it's no big deal...no head coach does the things that harbaugh has done to this dude without there being doubt about whether he's right for the job or not.

Rey
12-26-2012, 11:02 AM
it's strawman b/c rather than address and retort the obvious things, you pick out a few anomalies and start talking about pass attempts per game.

WTH are you talking about? I have laid out possible reasons that he hasn't thrown the ball 500 or 600 times. I have not commented on anything else besides that.

Show me this "obvious" proof that his coach didn't trust him as the reason why his pass attempts are average rather than high .vs than that being a function of the offense he was in and the philosophy of his coach.

Also, what are you complaining about att/gm for? That is what makes up the total amount of attempts during a season and last year Matt Schaub didn't play a whole season so the only thing to go off of is that. Alex Smith hasn't played every game this year, so wouldn't it make sense to look at attempts per game rather than the total?

mussop
12-26-2012, 11:18 AM
& again, what it comes back to with him is that this guy was still benched by his coach a season after an NFC championship appearance. That imo says more than any stat or any particular fan's feeling are towards him. & if you've watched the 49ers offense since Kap has been at the helm and compare it to how it was last year under Smith, the difference is stark...they are way more explosive with kap..much more so than they've ever been under Smith.



Smith was replaced because Harbaugh wasn't content with a game manager. He, like many of the fans here, know the potential his offense have with a more physically gifted QB. He got the opportunity to play one and he did well so he rolled the dice and is sticking with the guy. Don't think for a minute that if he starts doing bad that he won't throw Smith back in there.

There is no reason to think there was a trust issue except that it fits your argument. Throughout the year Harbaugh said time and time again that he had faith in Smith. Google it, there are many many articles on it.


And this nonsense about the offense looking so much better with Kolin this year than it did last year, care to show a shred of evidence to the contrary or should we just take your word for it?

mussop
12-26-2012, 12:03 PM
-His own coach benched him after his marvelous 20-6 record you keep touting

-As #1 overall pick 8 years in, he still hasn't had a 20 TD passing year ...that's basically a prequisite for being at least average

- Despite his big arm and mobility he doesn't throw the ball deep and he doesn't run around a whole lot...he doesn't even move around the pocket very well.

Those are about as legit as you trying to pass your opinion off about schaub as fact.

Wow I think this is proof enough that you have no clue what you are talking about. The only one of those that has any relevance in this debate is that he hasn't thrown 20 TD's in a season. Still with him at the helm they tied for 11th place in ppg last year with ......drum roll pleazzzze.... The Houston texans and the GREAT Matt Schaub. This year they were on pace to avg 23.5 ppg before he got hurt. And he was on pace to throw 25 TD's.

And in comparison Schaub in his first two years under Kubiak threw 9TD's and 15tD's.

Mr teX
12-26-2012, 12:26 PM
Smith was replaced because Harbaugh wasn't content with a game manager. He, like many of the fans here, know the potential his offense have with a more physically gifted QB. He got the opportunity to play one and he did well so he rolled the dice and is sticking with the guy. Don't think for a minute that if he starts doing bad that he won't throw Smith back in there.

There is no reason to think there was a trust issue except that it fits your argument. Throughout the year Harbaugh said time and time again that he had faith in Smith. Google it, there are many many articles on it.


And this nonsense about the offense looking so much better with Kolin this year than it did last year, care to show a shred of evidence to the contrary or should we just take your word for it?

:mariopalm: yeah, he'd go back to him...............b/c he'd have no damn choice to!


& we all know what coaches say out in the press is the truth and nothing but the truth....:rolleyes: Watch other games besides the texans man & stop being obtuse. harbaugh's the same guy who said "we're gonna go with the hot hand" and then a few days later named kapernick the starter...Well, since you brought the stat up, wouldn't you as a coach think that a guy who's 20-6 in his last few games is about as hot as you can get? Apparently harbaugh didn't think it was a enough.

& what you're saying just proves my point. After a year of giving him an opportunity to prove him wrong, he knew that he could never trust Smith to open his offense up the way kap has Plus, at the end of the day...Smith isn't his guy, kap is.


And if you've been watching them you can clearly see from an explosive play standpoint, they are much better. They actually throw the ball downfield much more effectively. They weren't doing that with Smith partly b/c Smith was so damn scared of making a mistake...and b/c harbs didn't trust him; Its why they lost the Giants game..they were just sitting on the short stuff and daring Smith to throw it deeper.

They've been moving the ball with much more ease since kap has been in & what he was able to do against the Bears, Patriots and Saints running and passing is better than anything Smith did in the offense in almost 2 years.

Mr teX
12-26-2012, 12:31 PM
Wow I think this is proof enough that you have no clue what you are talking about. The only one of those that has any relevance in this debate is that he hasn't thrown 20 TD's in a season. Still with him at the helm they tied for 11th place in ppg last year with ......drum roll pleazzzze.... The Houston texans and the GREAT Matt Schaub. This year they were on pace to avg 23.5 ppg before he got hurt. And he was on pace to throw 25 TD's.

And in comparison Schaub in his first two years under Kubiak threw 9TD's and 15tD's.

I'll tell you what, why don't you go pose your thread question to any serious football fan & see what kind of responses you get back.....If the majority of them don't :mariopalm::kubepalm: or :laughjump: like Dream Team has already pointed out to his fellow 9er fans then you might be on to something....until then, i'll just leave you to your own devices homie.

Playoffs
12-26-2012, 12:43 PM
Smith was replaced because Harbaugh wasn't content with a game manager...I think Harbaugh grew tired of managing Smith by limiting the playbook to low risk passing options. Coach did a great job of maximizing what was previously a marginal QB.

Now, you might be able to say that Kubiak has been doing the same thing with Schaub -- managing his shortcomings. I can buy that. I think Gary's forte is maximizing QB play.

But the evidence we have is Smith was a disappointment before Harbaugh. And he's likely to be same again if given broader decision-making choices.

I wouldn't mind upgrading our QB position. But let's really upgrade it, not move sideways or down.

mussop
12-26-2012, 12:46 PM
yeah, he'd go back to him...............b/c he'd have no damn choice to!


& we all know what coaches say out in the press is the truth and nothing but the truth....:rolleyes: Watch other games besides the texans man & stop being obtuse. harbaugh's the same guy who said "we're gonna go with the hot hand" and then a few days later named kapernick the starter...Well, since you brought the stat up, wouldn't you as a coach think that a guy who's 20-6 in his last few games is about as hot as you can get? Apparently harbaugh didn't think it was a enough.

& what you're saying just proves my point. After a year of giving him an opportunity to prove him wrong, he knew that he could never trust Smith to open his offense up the way kap has Plus, at the end of the day...Smith isn't his guy, kap is.


And if you've been watching them you can clearly see from an explosive play standpoint, they are much better. They actually throw the ball downfield much more effectively. They weren't doing that with Smith partly b/c Smith was so damn scared of making a mistake...and b/c harbs didn't trust him; Its why they lost the Giants game..they were just sitting on the short stuff and daring Smith to throw it deeper.

They've been moving the ball with much more ease since kap has been in & what he was able to do against the Bears, Patriots and Saints running and passing is better than anything Smith did in the offense in almost 2 years.

Typical Mr Tex it's right because it's my opinion no substance retort. couldn't decide which of these emoticons best described the way I feel after reading one of your post so I picked them all.

This is how I feel after reading one of your post. :gun:
This is what I should do instead of reading your responses. :brando:
This is what it feels like having a conversation with you. :bored:
This is what you sound like. :blah:

mussop
12-26-2012, 12:55 PM
I think Harbaugh grew tired of managing Smith by limiting the playbook to low risk passing options. Coach did a great job of maximizing what was previously a marginal QB.

Now, you might be able to say that Kubiak has been doing the same thing with Schaub -- managing his shortcomings. I can buy that. I think Gary's forte is maximizing QB play.

But the evidence we have is Smith was a disappointment before Harbaugh. And he's likely to be same again if given broader decision-making choices.

I wouldn't mind upgrading our QB position. But let's really upgrade it, not move sideways or down.

Again I never said I wanted Smith here. Just asked a simple question. Who is better. For some reason people here have an over inflated value on Schaub. Some even suggest he is just below the elites in talent and ability. Then the same people say A Smith is horrible. Just trying to get those people to see the light. It's like trying to talk sense to a west baptist church member.


And Kubiak has been doing the same thing. Smith and Schaub are the same type QB the only real difference is Smith has a stronger arm and is a little bit more mobile.

DocBar
12-26-2012, 01:09 PM
I think Harbaugh grew tired of managing Smith by limiting the playbook to low risk passing options. Coach did a great job of maximizing what was previously a marginal QB.

Now, you might be able to say that Kubiak has been doing the same thing with Schaub -- managing his shortcomings. I can buy that. I think Gary's forte is maximizing QB play.

But the evidence we have is Smith was a disappointment before Harbaugh. And he's likely to be same again if given broader decision-making choices.

I wouldn't mind upgrading our QB position. But let's really upgrade it, not move sideways or down.With Smith, you have to remember he's had a lot of different systems thrown at him and a ton of turnover in the HC/OC positions. I'm not saying that's why he was so bad for so long, but it certainly contributed to his poor developement.

Rey
12-26-2012, 01:14 PM
Harbaugh went with Kaepernick because that's his guy that he chose and he has better tools. His upside is greater.

Lets not act like Smith just flat out got benched. He got injured and Kap came in and played well and it was the perfect storm for Harbaugh to insert his guy.

Corrosion
12-26-2012, 01:17 PM
The bolded is actually a good point in his favor but people need to put things in perspective. He doesn't throw a ton of ints partly b/c coaches...even harbaugh, haven't trusted him to the throw the ball. 3 ints in 445 attempts sounds nice but its still not all that impressive when you consider that there are at least 2 rookie qbs this year who have or will have thrown the ball more times than he did all of last season....& that's excluding Andrew Luck (599 att).......i'm talking guys like Tannehill and Weeden. The average total attempts for the league is probably somewhere around 500-515 attempts. Reagardless of the regime that's been in place, noone trusts him to air it out.


& again, what it comes back to with him is that this guy was still benched by his coach a season after an NFC championship appearance. That imo says more than any stat or any particular fan's feeling are towards him. & if you've watched the 49ers offense since Kap has been at the helm and compare it to how it was last year under Smith, the difference is stark...they are way more explosive with kap..much more so than they've ever been under Smith.

Smith's Int numbers 1.1% in 2011 and 2.3% in 2012 - of passes attempted are far better than Lucks 3.0%.


He hasnt had to air it out in the past two seasons - he's had Frank Gore to lean on much like Schaub has had Foster .

I dont think one is better than the other , I believe they are equally flawed.

Mr teX
12-26-2012, 01:35 PM
Again I never said I wanted Smith here. Just asked a simple question. Who is better. For some reason people here have an over inflated value on Schaub. Some even suggest he is just below the elites in talent and ability. Then the same people say A Smith is horrible. Just trying to get those people to see the light. It's like trying to talk sense to a west baptist church member.


And Kubiak has been doing the same thing. Smith and Schaub are the same type QB the only real difference is Smith has a stronger arm and is a little bit more mobile.

no one has an over inflated value of schaub...we just know....and always have known from the time he got here what he is. You and a few others undervalue him imo b/c he's not the prototype...& threads like these prove it b/c they weren't even in existence until this past week. This is who this guy has been from the jump...good, but he'll never be that guy. I'm all for finding a new qb that's better than schaub...but when you talk about better, you're basically talking about finding a guy that can be amongst the elite...& those kinds of players aren't exactly easy to find.

All i know is 1 thing Smith is definitely not that guy.

DexmanC
12-26-2012, 01:38 PM
no one has an over inflated value of schaub...we just know....and always have known from the time he got here what he is. You and a few others undervalue imo b/c he's not the prototype...This is who this guy has been from the jump...good, but he'll never be that
guy. I'm all for finding a new qb that's better than schaub...but when you talk about better, you're basically talking about finding a guy that can be amongst the elite...& those kinds of players aren't exactly easy to find.

All i know is 1 thing Smith is definitely not that guy.








Smith

Don't discount the system Schaub plays in. This system took Sage Rosenfels
from the scrap heap, and made him a decent starter. The guy was traded
for draft picks, for crying-out-loud. David Carr looked like an NFL QB under
this system.

Schaub has certain skills, but he lacks CLASS A TOOLS. If Harbaugh were
here, I think we would've seen more snaps from TJ Yates, who is OUR
"Colin Kaepernick." Jim Harbaugh was a starter, Kubiak was a career backup.

Their coaching mentalities bear that out.

2012Champs
12-26-2012, 01:44 PM
Don't discount the system Schaub plays in. This system took Sage Rosenfels
from the scrap heat, and made him a decent starter. The guy was traded
for draft picks, for crying-out-loud. David Carr looked like an NFL QB under
this system.

Schaub has certain skills, but he lacks CLASS A TOOLS. If Harbaugh were
here, I think we would've seen more snaps from TJ Yates, who is OUR
"Colin Kaepernick." Jim Harbaugh was a starter, Kubiak was a career backup.

Their coaching mentalities bear that out.


Just because Yates is our backup and Kap was theirs in no way suggest if Jim was here he would be starting Yates. Yates is not a starter in this league

Mr teX
12-26-2012, 01:49 PM
Don't discount the system Schaub plays in. This system took Sage Rosenfels
from the scrap heat, and made him a decent starter. The guy was traded
for draft picks, for crying-out-loud. David Carr looked like an NFL QB under
this system.

Schaub has certain skills, but he lacks CLASS A TOOLS. If Harbaugh were
here, I think we would've seen more snaps from TJ Yates, who is OUR
"Colin Kaepernick." Jim Harbaugh was a starter, Kubiak was a career backup.

Their coaching mentalities bear that out.

1st off David Carr & Sage still looked like garbage have you forgotten the rosencopter game?....

2nd, i guess it just comes down to what you value the most in you qb imo...me personally, i value a good decision making qb above the rocket arm, above the super mobility.

DexmanC
12-26-2012, 01:53 PM
1st off David Carr & Sage still looked like garbage have you forgotten the rosencopter game?....

2nd, i guess it just comes down to what you value the most in you qb imo...me personally, i value a good decision making qb above the rocket arm, above the super mobility.

Prior to the "Rosencopter Game," Sage was quite serviceable while playing in this
system. In fact, during that SAME game he led the Texans to a 17-point lead
against the perennial AFC South Champions. Kubiak's system works wonders
on all quarterbacks, but if they have the physical tools to go along with it,
those special quarterbacks would excel.

Rey
12-26-2012, 01:54 PM
1st off David Carr & Sage still looked like garbage have you forgotten the rosencopter game?....


I remember that game. Sage was playing pretty well all game and had that one awful, awful moment.

Mr teX
12-26-2012, 01:57 PM
Prior to the "Rosencopter Game," Sage was quite serviceable while playing in this
system. In fact, during that SAME game he led the Texans to a 17-point lead
against the perennial AFC South Champions. Kubiak's system works wonders
on all quarterbacks, but if they have the physical tools to go along with it,
those special quarterbacks would excel.

& then he proceeded to fumble the ball on a head 1st run...(dumb decision)

& then he later threw a bad int to give the lead right back...(dumb decision)

As far as the bolded, that would apply to any system. Obviously, the offense the Broncos run wouldn't run as well with a guy like Matt Schaub or Chad Pennington at the helm.

DexmanC
12-26-2012, 02:24 PM
& then he proceeded to fumble the ball on a head 1st run...(dumb decision)

& then he later threw a bad int to give the lead right back...(dumb decision)

As far as the bolded, that would apply to any system. Obviously, the offense the Broncos run wouldn't run as well with a guy like Matt Schaub or Chad Pennington at the helm.

Pockets are broken against good d-lines. When this happens, and Schaub
is under center, the play is OVER.

TJ Yates, and other qb's with similar tools, are able to EXTEND the play with
their arm or legs. Schaub struggles to do either.

mussop
12-26-2012, 02:38 PM
1.)no one has an over inflated value of schaub... 2.)I'm all for finding a new qb that's better than schaub...but when you talk about better, you're basically talking about finding a guy that can be amongst the elite...& those kinds of players aren't exactly easy to find.

3.)All i know is 1 thing Smith is definitely not that guy.

1.) If you think he is much better than A Smith you do.
2.) you see right there you are basically saying that Schaub is just below the elites. I'm fine with a smart, good game manager type. I just want one that is at least mobile enough to extend plays when things go wrong up front. He doesn't have to be Rodger Stauback like just be decent at it. I want a guy that if no one is open to at least be able to break the LOS and pick up a first down every once in a while. Every Since Schaubs injury he hasn't been the same. You can't deny that. He's basically a cripple out there.

3.) never said he was.

2012Champs
12-26-2012, 02:39 PM
Pockets are broken against good d-lines. When this happens, and Schaub
is under center, the play is OVER.

TJ Yates, and other qb's with similar tools, are able to EXTEND the play with
their arm or legs. Schaub struggles to do either.




Is that why Yates took as many sacks as Schuab last year?

mussop
12-26-2012, 02:46 PM
Is that why Yates took as many sacks as Schuab last year?

I hate these narrow minded type of questions. Do you think Schaub is more mobile than Yates? That's all he was trying to say. Jeeesh use a little bit of common sense.

infantrycak
12-26-2012, 02:59 PM
I hate these narrow minded type of questions. Do you think Schaub is more mobile than Yates? That's all he was trying to say. Jeeesh use a little bit of common sense.

It isn't narrow minded at all. It is reality you don't want to examine. More athletic, more mobile whatever doesn't mean better period or even better at avoiding pressure. Yates sacked 11.2% of the time he dropped back. Schaub sacked 5.4%.

Hervoyel
12-26-2012, 03:09 PM
Is that why Yates took as many sacks as Schuab last year?

I'd imagine that Yates took as many sacks as Schaub last year because Yates was a rookie. He was faster than Schaub but less experienced so he didn't feel the pressure coming as well as Schaub and he took longer to find the open man. He did however extend plays and keep drives alive with his legs on a number of occaissions.

thunderkyss
12-26-2012, 03:13 PM
Just because Yates is our backup and Kap was theirs in no way suggest if Jim was here he would be starting Yates. Yates is not a starter in this league

& neither was Kaepernick.

Maybe my glasses are rose colored, but right now I don't see much difference between Kap & Yate's first three or four starts. They've both made plays, they've both screwed the pooch....

Yates may be a little less athletic, but we have no idea how Kubiak would use him if Schaub's ego wasn't in the way.

That's not to say I think Yates should be starting, but if I had to chose Yates or Alex Smith to be our starter, I'm going with the Tarheel.

For many of the same reasons that has been reasoned that Smith is better than Schaub..... Yates is as athletic if not more than Smith, has a stronger arm & more snap imo.

2012Champs
12-26-2012, 03:14 PM
It isn't narrow minded at all. It is reality you don't want to examine. More athletic, more mobile whatever doesn't mean better period or even better at avoiding pressure. Yates sacked 11.2% of the time he dropped back. Schaub sacked 5.4%.



yates did have a single run for 18-25 yards or something that Matt would have never pulled off but one play doesnt make a trend

amazing80
12-26-2012, 03:14 PM
It isn't narrow minded at all. It is reality you don't want to examine. More athletic, more mobile whatever doesn't mean better period or even better at avoiding pressure. Yates sacked 11.2% of the time he dropped back. Schaub sacked 5.4%.

Ummm, come on, you can't seriously say these are both apples and compare their juicy flavor, because frankly they are not the same.

TJ played 4 of the last 5 regular season games without Andre Johnson, he got 0 reps prior to him taking over. He had no idea what NFL game speed looked like and frankly he was not 100% ready to take over.

That doesn't mean Matt is more capable of avoiding rushers or anything, it means he is USE TO the pressure and game speed. Something Yates will get better at and with his better mobility he will actually do things Schaub cannot do, like scramble for a couple first downs a game, instead of throwing it away or throwing it short on 3rd down boot legs, he can actually run ahead for a couple yards to pick it up. Matt is not capable of doing that and if you forgot how much more athletic Yates is than Schaub, I suggest you look at this to refresh your memory

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDCPrSn6YL0

And thats the game HE HAD ANDRE

thunderkyss
12-26-2012, 03:16 PM
1st off David Carr & Sage still looked like garbage have you forgotten the rosencopter game?....


Without Sage, we had no chance in that game. Sage was making plays. Extending plays, finding receivers, delivering the ball on time.

Had it not been for the copter thing, that would have been a shining moment in Sage's career. Poor decision on his part, but he was putting it all on the line to win that game for me & you.

But... alas, now everybody wants us to play conservative.. no, wait a minute.

2012Champs
12-26-2012, 03:18 PM
I'd imagine that Yates took as many sacks as Schaub last year because Yates was a rookie. He was faster than Schaub but less experienced so he didn't feel the pressure coming as well as Schaub and he took longer to find the open man. He did however extend plays and keep drives alive with his legs on a number of occaissions.



So it seems that having better legs and a better arm doesnt equal less sacks or better play. Well let me have the slower guy with a weaker arm that has better results

amazing80
12-26-2012, 03:19 PM
So it seems that having better legs and a better arm doesnt equal less sacks or better play. Well let me have the slower weaker arm that has better results


Maybe you missed the part where he said YATES WAS A ROOKIE HENCE THE MORE SACKS

thunderkyss
12-26-2012, 03:23 PM
That doesn't mean Matt is more capable of avoiding rushers or anything,

He didn't suggest Matt was more capable. He said Matt was better at it. He didn't give the reasoning, but you pretty much got it.

mussop
12-26-2012, 03:24 PM
It isn't narrow minded at all. It is reality you don't want to examine. More athletic, more mobile whatever doesn't mean better period or even better at avoiding pressure. Yates sacked 11.2% of the time he dropped back. Schaub sacked 5.4%.

You are a stat junky. Do those stats tell how many of those times they dropped back that there was actually pressure? Nope. Do those stats tell what percentage of the time that there was pressure that the QB was able to avoid it? Nope. C'mon man you're supposed to be smarter than this, you're a freaking lawyer for gods sake.

I get what you're saying and you're right but stop with the worthless STAT approach. Yes being more mobile doesn't necessarily mean you are goi g to be better at avoiding sacks. It doesn't mean you will have a better pocket presence or that you will even know how to use those abilities to extend plays. But not having any mobility to the extent that Schaubs at defiantly doesn't allow him to extend plays or improvise at all. When is the last time ou seen Matt go through his progressions and no one was open and tucks the ball and gets ANY positive plays with his mobility? It's ridiculous how quick he throws the ball away several times a game even when there is obvious openings in the defense.

Hervoyel
12-26-2012, 03:24 PM
So it seems that having better legs and a better arm doesnt equal less sacks or better play. Well let me have the slower guy with a weaker arm that has better results

Maybe you missed the part where he said YATES WAS A ROOKIE HENCE THE MORE SACKS


Yeah, you kinda glossed over the most important part of the answer there 2012Champs.

Now if you could get a guy who had Schaub's football IQ and experience with better wheels (Yates quality or better) then you would be cooking with fire.

Playoffs
12-26-2012, 03:37 PM
Pockets are broken against good d-lines. When this happens, and Schaub is under center, the play is OVER...
I remember Dr. CND saying there was no brace that could protect Schaub from another lisfranc injury...

I wonder if the Dr.s told Matt "one more arch stomp and your career is likely over"??? Or if that is even the case? Doc?

I ask because Matt looked like he was playing "touch me not" during the particularly bad day the O-Line was having.

mussop
12-26-2012, 03:39 PM
I remember Dr. CND saying there was no brace that could protect Schaub from another lisfranc injury...

I wonder if the Dr.s told Matt "one more arch stomp and your career is likely over"??? Or if that is even the case? Doc?

I ask because Matt looked like he was playing "touch me not" during the particularly bad day the O-Line was having.

That's a good question.

infantrycak
12-26-2012, 03:56 PM
You are a stat junky. Do those stats tell how many of those times they dropped back that there was actually pressure? Nope. Do those stats tell what percentage of the time that there was pressure that the QB was able to avoid it? Nope.

Spare me your BS I can think of lots of unanswerable questions routine. Frankly it is particularly lame in this context - same OL so absolutely no reason to believe they were suddenly allowing a greater pass rush. My eyes tell me Schaub with his physical ability limitations is better at avoiding pressure than Yates - not on individual plays, yes Yates will sometimes pull something out which Schaub could not, but over the course of a game or season). Once again, the stats are there as a confirmation.

Schaub definitely has limitations but this across the board bashing has become freaking ridiculous.

thunderkyss
12-26-2012, 04:08 PM
You are a stat junky. Do those stats tell how many of those times they dropped back that there was actually pressure? Nope. Do those stats tell what percentage of the time that there was pressure that the QB was able to avoid it? Nope. C'mon man you're supposed to be smarter than this, you're a freaking lawyer for gods sake.


Depends on how long he's been doing it. If he's been doing it for 2 or 3 years, then I have to assume his ability to judge & beat pressure is there. Guys who don't handle pressure well will not put up Matt Schaub's numbers for 6 years.

Guys who don't get a chance in this QB hungry league don't get a chance for a reason.

2012Champs
12-26-2012, 04:09 PM
Ummm, come on, you can't seriously say these are both apples and compare their juicy flavor, because frankly they are not the same.

TJ played 4 of the last 5 regular season games without Andre Johnson, he got 0 reps prior to him taking over. He had no idea what NFL game speed looked like and frankly he was not 100% ready to take over.

That doesn't mean Matt is more capable of avoiding rushers or anything, it means he is USE TO the pressure and game speed. Something Yates will get better at and with his better mobility he will actually do things Schaub cannot do, like scramble for a couple first downs a game, instead of throwing it away or throwing it short on 3rd down boot legs, he can actually run ahead for a couple yards to pick it up. Matt is not capable of doing that and if you forgot how much more athletic Yates is than Schaub, I suggest you look at this to refresh your memory

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDCPrSn6YL0

And thats the game HE HAD ANDRE




I think Matt played without dre as well but somehow Matt's ppg avg didnt fall by 10

Mr teX
12-26-2012, 04:13 PM
You are a stat junky. Do those stats tell how many of those times they dropped back that there was actually pressure? Nope. Do those stats tell what percentage of the time that there was pressure that the QB was able to avoid it? Nope. C'mon man you're supposed to be smarter than this, you're a freaking lawyer for gods sake.

I get what you're saying and you're right but stop with the worthless STAT approach. Yes being more mobile doesn't necessarily mean you are goi g to be better at avoiding sacks. It doesn't mean you will have a better pocket presence or that you will even know how to use those abilities to extend plays. But not having any mobility to the extent that Schaubs at defiantly doesn't allow him to extend plays or improvise at all. When is the last time ou seen Matt go through his progressions and no one was open and tucks the ball and gets ANY positive plays with his mobility? It's ridiculous how quick he throws the ball away several times a game even when there is obvious openings in the defense.

I really am wondering if we watch the same games & you guys need to make up your minds. 1 guy's talking about mobility as in extending plays, another's talking about him tucking and running type mobility. If it extending plays with his mobility, Schaub routinely does this on bootlegs once he realizes he cannot go deep.
matter fact one of my biggest criticisms of him is that he likes to hold on to the ball too long going through his progressions off of those bootlegs and just doesn't throw it away even when someone's got him in their grasp....See the Detroit game where Suh should've been called for a horsecollar as schaub's releasing the ball...that play by definition is him extending a play b/c he had to side-step to get it off.

he also routinely steps into the pocket to extend plays once pressure comes from the outside.....He does this just fine when he's in the shotgun, but yes he does have issues doing that when he's got to come from under center. Again, see the detroit game and the broncos game this year...There are number of plays where he does just this in those games and really throughout the season.

just b/c he's not tucking and running doesn't mean that the guy is this immobile statue back there and he's not capable of making a play. he's not that running guy..most qb's aren't that guy.

ChampionTexan
12-26-2012, 06:08 PM
I think we need to stop talking about whether he's better than Alex Smith, and start talking about whether he deserves to be named to the AFC Pro Bowl team.

scourge
12-26-2012, 06:13 PM
Let the games begin. :kingkong:

The case for Smith -

Smith led the 49ers to within a couple of plays from the Super Bowl. Smith threw only five interceptions all season (none in the playoffs) and finished in the top 10 in QB rating 2011.

This season Smith he was third in QB rating, behind Manning and Aaron Rodgers before he got injured and replaced. In his last full game he was 18-of-19 with three TDs setting an NFL record with a 94.7 completion percentage for a quarterback with a minimum of 15 attempts. He was named NFC Offensive Player of the Week for the first time two days later.. Before he was knocked out of the game against St. Louis, he was 7-of-8 with a TD and a passer rating of 143.8. Three of his five interceptions this season came in one game -- against the New York Giants, the defending Super Bowl champs. In fact he is 20-6-1 in the games he's started for Harbaugh.

Here's something interesting for all you STAT lovers. Smith owns a passer rating of 104.1, less than a point behind Aaron Rodgers (104.7) and Robert Griffin III (104.2).

The problem is He's ineligible for the passing rating crown and needs another seven attempts to climb back into the race. Smith also can improve upon his 70 percent completion rate and break Drew Brees' record (71.2) from a season ago if he completes nine of nine passes in the next game.

Not bad for a guy most around here say doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Schaub.


While I'm not saying I'd definitely take Alex over Matt, no one seems to care(or maybe know) that there was a good reason Smith did so poorly in the years leading up to playing for Harbaugh. In 8 seasons he has had 7 different offensive coordinators, and 3 head coaches. Few QB's could deal with that when just coming into the league and still put up amazing numbers. That's not the only reason he's played as he did in the past, but that is absolutely one of the major factors.

It's understandable that people want to compare him to Rodgers since they were both in the '05 draft, but had it went the other way instead, Rodgers wouldn't be lighting it up like he is now. Honestly, Alex doesn't have the same skillset as Aaron, so I don't think he would have put up the same stats as Aaron. But Smith definitely would have at least got to his current level of playing earlier in his career.

Having said all that, I would probably take Matt over Alex. However, if the Texans in the offseason were to drop Matt in favor of Alex it wouldn't give me heartburn either. I think Alex is still coachable, and Kubiak would be the right coach for him, just like Harbaugh is... Those who are formerly quarterbacks themselves.

Thorn
12-26-2012, 06:17 PM
I think we need to stop talking about whether he's better than Alex Smith, and start talking about whether he deserves to be named to the AFC Pro Bowl team.

I was really surprised when I saw that. I wouldn't have voted for him. Oh yeah, I didn't.

mussop
12-26-2012, 07:58 PM
I really am wondering if we watch the same games & you guys need to make up your minds. 1 guy's talking about mobility as in extending plays, another's talking about him tucking and running type mobility. If it extending plays with his mobility, Schaub routinely does this on bootlegs once he realizes he cannot go deep.
matter fact one of my biggest criticisms of him is that he likes to hold on to the ball too long going through his progressions off of those bootlegs and just doesn't throw it away even when someone's got him in their grasp....See the Detroit game where Suh should've been called for a horsecollar as schaub's releasing the ball...that play by definition is him extending a play b/c he had to side-step to get it off.

he also routinely steps into the pocket to extend plays once pressure comes from the outside.....He does this just fine when he's in the shotgun, but yes he does have issues doing that when he's got to come from under center. Again, see the detroit game and the broncos game this year...There are number of plays where he does just this in those games and really throughout the season.

just b/c he's not tucking and running doesn't mean that the guy is this immobile statue back there and he's not capable of making a play. he's not that running guy..most qb's aren't that guy.

Please explain the bolded.

Rey
12-26-2012, 08:13 PM
LOL at using the bootleg as an example of extending a play.

It's a designed roll out.

aussie_texan
12-26-2012, 08:20 PM
i would shoot myself if we got A.Smith and dumped Schaub!

Playoffs
12-26-2012, 08:22 PM
I was really surprised when I saw that. I wouldn't have voted for him. Oh yeah, I didn't.

Well, it wasn't the fans who voted him in so it must have been the other players and the coaches.

Pfffft, but what do those guys know about football. http://www.sooeys.com/images/smiles/action-smiley-011.gif

mussop
12-26-2012, 09:07 PM
Spare me your BS I can think of lots of unanswerable questions routine. Frankly it is particularly lame in this context - same OL so absolutely no reason to believe they were suddenly allowing a greater pass rush. My eyes tell me Schaub with his physical ability limitations is better at avoiding pressure than Yates - not on individual plays, yes Yates will sometimes pull something out which Schaub could not, but over the course of a game or season). Once again, the stats are there as a confirmation.

Schaub definitely has limitations but this across the board bashing has become freaking ridiculous.

OK THEN!!!

Matt Sschaub -- 19 rushing attempts -8 yards. :spit: The only QB worse than him is Ryan Mallet a backup who seldom ever plays. There's your stat! A 35 year old Tom Brady managed 35 yards on just a few more carries. How in the hell Can a QB on a team with arguably the best play action and bootleg plays in the entire NFL manage to have negative yards rushing? I mean I don't expect Vick type numbers but CMON MAN!!!! :mariopalm:

I will say this. Maybe just maybe Kubiak doesn't trust him enough to let him run upfield on those bootlegs when he's wide open. Maybe he tells him just throw it away. Either way it's time to start looking for an upgrade at QB. Whether that means bringing in a FA to challenge Schaub or drafting a young one with more potential than Yates or the other hacks we've brought in the last few years and developing them to take over for Slothy in the next couple of years.

mussop
12-26-2012, 09:08 PM
LOL at using the bootleg as an example of extending a play.

It's a designed roll out.

But Rey, to be fair, it makes no sense!:shades:

infantrycak
12-26-2012, 09:29 PM
OK THEN!!!

Matt Sschaub -- 19 rushing attempts -8 yards. :spit:

OK Forrest. Put the chocolate back in the box. I was talking avoiding pass pressure. Your rushing attempt stat is both hypocritical and irrelevant.

Mr teX
12-26-2012, 09:30 PM
Please explain the bolded.

When we run the bootleg and its not effective, there's not always someone open for him to get the ball out to immediately. Alot of the times here lately, teams haven't even been biting on it. In any event, he more often than not will sit there for a second or so waiting for OD or whomever to clear or come back to the ball. Usually by this time the defense has reacted and are actively closing in on him....That's when he'll start sliding laterally to the sideline to buy just a little more time for his guys to get open....extending the play. A great example of this is in the 2nd qtr. of the minny game around 6 minutes to go. The pass was not completed, but no one was open & he strung it out as long as he could.. Many of the times for me, he holds onto the ball a little to long in these instances when it's obvious nothing's there.

Yeah it's a design rollout to give him time, but as of late, those things haven't even been working & teams have just been sending someone right at him not even worrying about chasing Arian down from the backside & He barely has time to get his head around.

This how i know you guys don't really watch what's going on.

mussop
12-26-2012, 11:18 PM
OK Forrest. Put the chocolate back in the box. I was talking avoiding pass pressure. Your rushing attempt stat is both hypocritical and irrelevant.

That's totally inappropriate. It's lewd, lascivious, salacious, outrageous, egregious and preposterous. The stats are there as a confirmation that Schaub is as immobile as a sloth. When he rolls out and there is no one open he throws the ball away even if he has open field in front of him. Even when he does avoid the rush (usually by ducking his head and stumbling around) and no one is open he immediately throws the ball away instead of trying to extend the play or running to open field.

mussop
12-26-2012, 11:22 PM
When we run the bootleg and its not effective, there's not always someone open for him to get the ball out to immediately. Alot of the times here lately, teams haven't even been biting on it. In any event, he more often than not will sit there for a second or so waiting for OD or whomever to clear or come back to the ball. Usually by this time the defense has reacted and are actively closing in on him....That's when he'll start sliding laterally to the sideline to buy just a little more time for his guys to get open....extending the play. A great example of this is in the 2nd qtr. of the minny game around 6 minutes to go. The pass was not completed, but no one was open & he strung it out as long as he could.. Many of the times for me, he holds onto the ball a little to long in these instances when it's obvious nothing's there.

Yeah it's a design rollout to give him time, but as of late, those things haven't even been working & teams have just been sending someone right at him not even worrying about chasing Arian down from the backside & He barely has time to get his head around.

This how i know you guys don't really watch what's going on.

I agree with you he does this a lot. The real question is, is this Kubiak telling him not to run in those situations or is he just incapable? EIther way it proves my point that his legs are a liability. These are wasted opportunities that more often than not end up being drive killers.

Playoffs
12-26-2012, 11:29 PM
That's totally inappropriate. It's lewd, lascivious, salacious...
Nothing sexual about his retort... ?

Corrosion
12-26-2012, 11:32 PM
But Rey, to be fair, it makes no sense!:shades:

It does make sense.

These designed roll outs are easy arc's to run .... there are no sharp cuts or changes of direction that require sticking the foot in the ground and pushing off with significant force.

MEGA SWATT
12-26-2012, 11:48 PM
A. Smith was benched for a 2nd yr guy with "potential"

nuff said.

Corrosion
12-26-2012, 11:50 PM
A. Smith was benched for a 2nd yr guy with "potential"

nuff said.

And it was a bad decision. :rake:

Texecutioner
12-27-2012, 12:02 AM
And it was a bad decision. :rake:

Yeah, what a bad decision it was to bench a QB that had one average season out of like 8 where he stunk it up the rest of the time. Sorry, but this Alex Smith stuff from you guys is incredible. He isn't wanted anywhere around the league. All he would be to any team is a stop gap guy that would have to compete with other guys that he'd probably lose to since he has never been able to keep his job. Kapernick looks damn good thus far. The guy had 4 TD's against the Patriots in one of their biggest games of the season. Harbaugh obviously knew some stuff about this guy that a lot of people didn't. Smith has had like 8 years to get better and show that he could be a great starter in this league, and the best he's been able to pull together is an average season. You guys keep talking about him as if he was Phillip Rivers from a few years ago or Big Ben or something.

stingray
12-27-2012, 12:10 AM
Just go back and watch last years nfc championship game. Everybody remembers the turnovers as the deciding factor in the giants win. But alex smith couldnt hit water throwing from a boat in that game. I think he converted one third down the whole game. A. Smith just needed to be average and the niners would have gone to the super bowl.

Corrosion
12-27-2012, 12:13 AM
Yeah, what a bad decision it was to bench a QB that had one average season out of like 8 where he stunk it up the rest of the time. Sorry, but this Alex Smith stuff from you guys is incredible. He isn't wanted anywhere around the league. All he would be to any team is a stop gap guy that would have to compete with other guys that he'd probably lose to since he has never been able to keep his job. Kapernick looks damn good thus far. The guy had 4 TD's against the Patriots in one of their biggest games of the season. Harbaugh obviously knew some stuff about this guy that a lot of people didn't. Smith has had like 8 years to get better and show that he could be a great starter in this league, and the best he's been able to pull together is an average season. You guys keep talking about him as if he was Phillip Rivers from a few years ago or Big Ben or something.

No , I realize Smiths flaws .... He's much like Schaub .... pre lisfranc.



But making Kaepernick the starter mid-season was a mistake. The goal is to win a championship .... they were the best team in the NFC with Smith at QB because he didnt make mistakes , let their running game hurt teams and didnt put the defense in bad positions.
They have since lost 2 games and tied another .... often due to the mistakes made by Kaepernick. They arent a superbowl team with him at QB ....


They may be more exciting with Kaepernick .... but they aint better (Yet).


I bet if Harbaugh had it to do over again , he'd have gone back to Smith who was 20-6 as a starter during his tenure.

Mr teX
12-27-2012, 07:28 AM
No , I realize Smiths flaws .... He's much like Schaub .... pre lisfranc.



But making Kaepernick the starter mid-season was a mistake. The goal is to win a championship .... they were the best team in the NFC with Smith at QB because he didnt make mistakes , let their running game hurt teams and didnt put the defense in bad positions.
They have since lost 2 games and tied another .... often due to the mistakes made by Kaepernick. They arent a superbowl team with him at QB ....


They may be more exciting with Kaepernick .... but they aint better (Yet).


I bet if Harbaugh had it to do over again , he'd have gone back to Smith who was 20-6 as a starter during his tenure.

They've continued with their pattern throughout this year...win 2 lose 1 with Kap. but 2 of Kap's wins have been against 2 pretty good teams. This also does not factor in that they've been pretty banged up on defense & they lost Justin Smith part way through the NE game; dude didn't play in the last Seattle game......... they've also lost manningham for the season & VD has been knicked up as well. So they may not "technically" be better as reflective of their record, but they haven't performed any worse either. They're still much more explosive with Kap than they were with Smith though. All in all, this is valuable experience for the young kid for next year.................just in time for us when we have to face the NFC west.......:kubepalm:

Mr teX
12-27-2012, 07:41 AM
I agree with you he does this a lot. The real question is, is this Kubiak telling him not to run in those situations or is he just incapable? EIther way it proves my point that his legs are a liability. These are wasted opportunities that more often than not end up being drive killers.

I doubt it's kubiak telling him not to run, he's just incapable & its not a strong suite of his (understatement of the year)...but where we disagree is how much of a play is able to be made by him, or any other qb running the ball in those situations. You gotta remember, those bootlegs and waggles take those guys about 5-8 yards off the LOS minimum coming off the fake...

I seriously doubt that any qb's outside of Micheal Vick..maybe RG3 is going to be fast enough to make up for the 5-8 yds they're in the hole already and pick up 3-4 more to make the play even worth mentioning as a "positive" non-drive-killing play like you're saying.........& truthfully that's if they're not trying to find anyone downfield...that's basically turn and run...

Rey
12-27-2012, 09:07 AM
Our run game and bootleg don't work because teams are going to make Matt Schaub beat them. Better teams with smarter D-coordinators realize that.

Don't go out there and try to make spectacular plays. Stay true to your responsibility, load up on the run, don't bite on play-action. If you do that the the QB has almost zero chance of doing anything outside the box to make plays.

Of course the flip side of that is having your offense make some plays on our defense. If you turn the ball over and don't move the ball, we will beat you...even if it's based on a bunch of field goals....

But if you play solid defense and have an offense that can move the ball and put up points, I'm giving us 15% chance to win games.

2012Champs
12-27-2012, 09:18 AM
Our run game and bootleg don't work because teams are going to make Matt Schaub beat them. Better teams with smarter D-coordinators realize that.

Don't go out there and try to make spectacular plays. Stay true to your responsibility, load up on the run, don't bite on play-action. If you do that the the QB has almost zero chance of doing anything outside the box to make plays.

Of course the flip side of that is having your offense make some plays on our defense. If you turn the ball over and don't move the ball, we will beat you...even if it's based on a bunch of field goals....

But if you play solid defense and have an offense that can move the ball and put up points, I'm giving us 15% chance to win games.



I dont think our running game/bootleg wont work because our line isnt getting its job done. A lot of people have complained about Foster's peformance from the start of the year on, Schaub's performance. Look at the O line, if they do a better job the run game is in better shape and so is the passing game.

Mr teX
12-27-2012, 10:33 AM
Lol at smart d-coordinators making Schaub beat them...smart d-coordinators are smart enough to know that Schaub will beat them if they don't blitz him or get some kind of stunt going with their d-line & lbs to get him uncomfortable on obvious 3rd & long situations.....like GB did.....like NE did.... our 2 worst losses of the season.

But in any event, that's d-coordinating 101 and is the standard formula against every qb/offense............. if you can execute it......see brady in his last 2 SB appearances.

You combine this with an o-line that's already shaky and you get what Minny did to us this past week...Sure, there were a few plays that could've been made if Schaub was a bit more mobile, but not likely enough to overcome getting dominated in the trenches though.

tremendous over-estimation of what a mobile qb could do in this thread. Andrew Luck broke out a 40 time = to Cam Newton in the combine...........couldn't move around enough to escape JJ Watt & co. when it mattered though. Ditto for Mike Vick and that turnstile offensive line he had up in Philly that got he and Nick Foles broken up.

Rey
12-27-2012, 12:50 PM
But in any event, that's d-coordinating 101 and is the standard formula against every qb/offense............. if you can execute it......see brady in his last 2 SB appearances.



What?

Teams are not loading the box to stop the Patriots run and daring Brady to beat them.

That is exactly what they do against the Texans.

mussop
12-27-2012, 01:12 PM
tremendous over-estimation of what a mobile qb could do in this thread. Andrew Luck broke out a 40 time = to Cam Newton in the combine...........couldn't move around enough to escape JJ Watt & co. when it mattered though. Ditto for Mike Vick and that turnstile offensive line he had up in Philly that got he and Nick Foles broken up.

Luck has taken the worst team and taken them to the playoffs in one year. His mobility has had a lot to do with it. If his RB hadn't fumbled on the goaline that game could of turned out way different. I wouldn't get to cocky about how well we can handle him until after this Sunday. Using Phili is a bad example. They have one of the worst OL in the NFL in the last few years. Rodger Staubauch couldn't escape the pressure that OL allows.

If you want a good example of what a good mobile QB can do for you go look at seatle. Wilson is by no means a "running" QB. He makes smart decisions and when put in the position he is CAPABLE of getting positive results with his legs. It's made a HUGE difference for that team.

Texan_Touchdown
12-27-2012, 02:04 PM
I played QB and that's honestly a hard decision. I think Matt Schuab has a better pass and a more catch-able ball. But his mobility issue makes off timing throws impossible. And off timing throws happen quite often. Alex Smith I think can run this offense better with his running and tenacity but not to where he will make this team a Super Bowl winning team. ( if MAtt can't).

Texan_Touchdown
12-27-2012, 02:05 PM
I would rather draft a QB. Or draft a Receiver to help Schuab out.

Fico
12-27-2012, 02:20 PM
What?

Teams are not loading the box to stop the Patriots run and daring Brady to beat them.

That is exactly what they do against the Texans.

The reason their running game is successful is because teams play a 2 deep shell to keep Brady in check. They drop a man down and Brady can beat them. Their offense runs through Brady, their RB by Committee is secondary to defending Brady.

Our offense is designed in the opposite manner. We use the running game to set up the pass. If you sit in 2 deep shell we run it down your throat. You drop 8 in the box and we can sling it all over the field. When the running game has been effective we have been unstoppable on offense pretty much since 2007. Teams have to pick their poison and they would rather make Schuab beat them offensively, and more times than not he has produced significant offensive production when teams decide to do that.

The Pats running game needs Brady passing game to be effective in order to operate at the highest level of efficiency and we need our running game to be effective to operate at the highest level of efficiency.

I hate on Schuab just because he is a big dude and goes down if somebody breathes on him. He is surely big enough to break away from a finger nail tackle. Other than that the guy is a very good player...... Sure if we have Manning, Brees, Brady or Rodgers we would be unstoppable but that isn't reality.

The reality is we have a good player at QB, a good TE, a great WR, and a great WR. Our OL needs to get their stuff together asap, because skill positions are not the issue with the offense right now.

Oh, and LOL at all this Alex Smith talk. Really Alex Smith..... C'mon Man.

rolyat93
12-27-2012, 02:56 PM
Wow, I don't even know why the thread is this long. It's not even a debate, Schaub is clearly the better player. CLEARLY.

Mr teX
12-27-2012, 03:15 PM
What?

Teams are not loading the box to stop the Patriots run and daring Brady to beat them.

That is exactly what they do against the Texans.


Go back & read my post dude...there was a key phrase in it. It said If...you...can...execute..it...

& yeah, most teams can't do it on a consistent basis for 1 reason or another but if you watched the 49ers & Patriots game a few weeks ago you would've seen that this is exactly what the 49ers did to Brady and the Pats. the only major difference was: 1, the 49ers didn't really need to load up the box b/c they're pretty stout as is with the Smith's, Bowman & Willis & 2, the Pats got behind alot really early and were pretty much forced to abandon the run. The basic principle was still the same though..make them 1 dimensional and then make life a living hell at the LOS for the qb. Brady was getting popped every other play early on b/c the Smith's were giving the o-line hell with stunts up front and it kept him out of rhythm.

It's funny b/c the pats tried to do the same thing against kap & he burned them early on with a 40 yd strike to Moss. When we tried to do the same thing against them early deep down the sideline....here was the result:

Matt Schaub incomplete pass to the right intended for Lestar Jean.

We tried it again this past week to the same guy....and got the same result..:pissed:. Jean can't separate worth ****....but that's a topic for another day.

& before you start harping on it, the passes were not underthrown, poorly thrown or anything like that, Jean just couldn't come up with them.

Anyway, they load up the box against us b/c 1, they know for better & worse, (worse alot lately) we are never going to abandon the run game... 2, they know a significant portion of our passing attack comes off the run game & 3, they know we have next to nothing at WR outside of AJ & they feel comfy leaving their cb's & lb's 1 on 1 with our WR's & TE's.

Schaub's immobility & pralis as a qb is probably reason # 6789 as to why they load up the box like they do against us.

you can't just look at this stuff out of context man.

dream_team
12-27-2012, 03:41 PM
Wow, I don't even know why the thread is this long. It's not even a debate, Schaub is clearly the better player. CLEARLY.

I think it's this long because a few vocal people are trying to argue Smith's case. But I think majority of people are happy to stick with Schaub over Smith.

kiwitexansfan
12-27-2012, 03:47 PM
I think either of the guys can run Kubiak's offense, thing is we have Schaub and will likely never have Smith so the debate would all seem to be wasted breath.

I was on the anti-Schaub bandwagon for a bit but realised that he is almost precisely the guy I would want to run this offense if you couldn't have a top tier talent. He is smart, careful, sells play fakes well and can make a downfield throw well enough to keep that option alive.

Double Barrel
12-27-2012, 04:44 PM
Matt Schaub, Alex Smith, Joe Flacco...all pedestrian QBs who might be able to game manage their way to the Super Bowl with great running games and great defense.

I do not see any of them being clearly better than the other. And while I like Schaub, I would not have a problem with a clear upgrade. But Smith is not clearly better than Schaub, so it's a mute point right now.

kiwitexansfan
12-27-2012, 05:40 PM
Matt Schaub, Alex Smith, Joe Flacco...all pedestrian QBs who might be able to game manage their way to the Super Bowl with great running games and great defense.

I do not see any of them being clearly better than the other. And while I like Schaub, I would not have a problem with a clear upgrade. But Smith is not clearly better than Schaub, so it's a mute point right now.

How about a Stafford kind of QB, a gunslinger, arguably about the same tier of QB as Schaub but completely different style. Would you prefer safe Schaub or the slinger Stafford?

Rey
12-27-2012, 05:44 PM
Matt Schaub, Alex Smith, Joe Flacco...all pedestrian QBs who might be able to game manage their way to the Super Bowl with great running games and great defense.

I do not see any of them being clearly better than the other. And while I like Schaub, I would not have a problem with a clear upgrade. But Smith is not clearly better than Schaub, so it's a mute point right now.

I agree with that. I actually think if smith had been here for a while he could be at least a little better than schaub but I'm not 100% firm in that belief. But no way would I bring in smith to take over for shammy. That doesn't make a lot of sense.

If you're going to do something different grab and mold your own guy(s) or take a guy high in the draft. ...of course signing a hof guy was an option this past off season but obviously wasn't meant to be....

Corrosion
12-27-2012, 05:54 PM
Matt Schaub, Alex Smith, Joe Flacco...all pedestrian QBs who might be able to game manage their way to the Super Bowl with great running games and great defense.

I do not see any of them being clearly better than the other. And while I like Schaub, I would not have a problem with a clear upgrade. But Smith is not clearly better than Schaub, so it's a mute point right now.


Not picking on you DB .... But I see a lot of people misuse the word Mute in place of Moot and it kinda bugs me .... Definitions below!

Moot (http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+moot&qpvt=MOOT&FORM=DTPDIA)

mute (http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+mute&qpvt=mute&FORM=DTPDIA).


Now that Im done playing gramar nazi ..... on to the meat of the post , I pretty much agree that each of those QB's you listed is flawed in some way.

A healthy Schaub is probably the best game manager of the bunch while Flacco has the bigest arm and most athletic but questionable decision making , while Smith falls somewhere between the two in all aspects.


Problem is , Schaub isnt healthy .... and according to C&D that foot , while satisfactorily healed is never going to be as good as new and in fact , is going to get worse with use and time. I tend to agree with his assessment .... as Schaub is proving him right with time.

This team is ready made to win now and probably has a 3-4 year window to win it all.
If Schaub isnt able to hold up to the rigors of a 16 game regular season and the playoffs .... Smith might be the best available option to replace him with.

The offenses they run are very similar and Harbaugh asks about the same of Smith that Gary does of Schaub ....

Think about the prospects of a rookie or TJ Yates .... Not to mention , they wont be in position to get one of the higher rated QB's in the draft. This tean would take several steps back under the best of circumstances with a rookie QB at the helm ... wasting that window of opporunity to win it all.


Bottom line , I'd prefer a healthy Schaub over either Flacco or Smith .... but Schaub obviously isnt the same guy post lisfranc.

Im not saying I'd go out and get the guy , just that I would entertain the possibility.

Rey
12-27-2012, 05:54 PM
How about a Stafford kind of QB, a gunslinger, arguably about the same tier of QB as Schaub but completely different style. Would you prefer safe Schaub or the slinger Stafford?

For me, stafford all day.

Stafford has all the tools. You can coach some players up and put them in better situations.

Look at cassel. When he was with the patriots he looked good. Go to an organization not as good and he looks awful.

Sage here looked pretty good. Pressed too much IMO, but he looked better here than anywhere else he went in his career.

Even David Carr looked better under kubiak than he did at other points. Rarely have qb's looked absolutely putrid here.

DX-TEX
12-27-2012, 05:55 PM
They both suck!

/thread

Corrosion
12-27-2012, 05:58 PM
For me, stafford all day.

Stafford has all the tools. You can coach some players up and put them in better situations.

Look at cassel. When he was with the patriots he looked good. Go to an organization not as good and he looks awful.

Sage here looked pretty good. Pressed too much IMO, but he looked better here than anywhere else he went in his career.

Even David Carr looked better under kubiak than he did at other points. Rarely have qb's looked absolutely putrid here.

Gary has found ways to mask the weaknesses of these QB's .... even HWWNBM. Taking a lot of pressure off of them and making the game simple for them.
I'd really like to see what he could do with a top tier talent at the position .... a complete package guy like RG3.

Double Barrel
12-27-2012, 06:07 PM
How about a Stafford kind of QB, a gunslinger, arguably about the same tier of QB as Schaub but completely different style. Would you prefer safe Schaub or the slinger Stafford?

I think Stafford has better physical skills and a higher ceiling.

And under the direction of a QB coach like Kubiak, I think the between-the-ears stuff can be taught.

I think most QBs would love this system, especially with the talent we have on offense right now. There was a reason Manning had the Texans high on his list...

I agree with that. I actually think if smith had been here for a while he could be at least a little better than schaub but I'm not 100% firm in that belief. But no way would I bring in smith to take over for shammy. That doesn't make a lot of sense.

If you're going to do something different grab and mold your own guy(s) or take a guy high in the draft. ...of course signing a hof guy was an option this past off season but obviously wasn't meant to be....

Yeah, I agree about Smith if he had been coached under one system from the beginning. But I think his career has been hurt by so many coaches and so many systems. Sort of reminds me of David Carr in a way, mainly that they had potential entering the league but were ultimately damaged goods because of their experiences.

People forget one of the main reasons Kubiak wanted Schaub so bad: he played this offense in college. In the pros, dude sat on the bench for three seasons behind Vick, so it wasn't like there was a line at the Falcons' front office to make a deal for the guy. He was pretty much a clean slate when Kubiak got him, and by now we have seen his ceiling.

I like Schaub, so I'm not trying to tear him down or advocate trade. However, all that said, I really hope that none of our playoff games come down to solely resting on his shoulders. I don't have that kind of faith that he will consistently rise to the occasion. Obviously I hope to be wrong on my thoughts about our QB.

Not picking on you DB .... But I see a lot of people misuse the word Mute in place of Moot and it kinda bugs me .... Definitions below!

Moot (http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+moot&qpvt=MOOT&FORM=DTPDIA)

mute (http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+mute&qpvt=mute&FORM=DTPDIA).


Now that Im done playing gramar nazi ..... on to the meat of the post , I pretty much agree that each of those QB's you listed is flawed in some way.


That's funny, man! I honestly never knew that, so thanks for the education.

I know you're not a grammar nazi, so absolutely no offense taken. I appreciate the heads up! :)


A healthy Schaub is probably the best game manager of the bunch while Flacco has the bigest arm and most athletic but questionable decision making , while Smith falls somewhere between the two in all aspects.


Problem is , Schaub isnt healthy .... and according to C&D that foot , while satisfactorily healed is never going to be as good as new and in fact , is going to get worse with use and time. I tend to agree with his assessment .... as Schaub is proving him right with time.

This team is ready made to win now and probably has a 3-4 year window to win it all.
If Schaub isnt able to hold up to the rigors of a 16 game regular season and the playoffs .... Smith might be the best available option to replace him with.

The offenses they run are very similar and Harbaugh asks about the same of Smith that Gary does of Schaub ....

Think about the prospects of a rookie or TJ Yates .... Not to mention , they wont be in position to get one of the higher rated QB's in the draft. This tean would take several steps back under the best of circumstances with a rookie QB at the helm ... wasting that window of opporunity to win it all.


Bottom line , I'd prefer a healthy Schaub over either Flacco or Smith .... but Schaub obviously isnt the same guy post lisfranc.

Im not saying I'd go out and get the guy , just that I would entertain the possibility.

I agree completely. Right now we dance with the one that brought us. If there is a clear upgrade, take it! But I do not think Kubiak will do it. I think he believes in Schaub and truly thinks that he is a QB that can take us to the promised land. Nobody wants that to happen more than Kubiak, whose career hinges on it at the end of the day.

klockWork
12-27-2012, 07:49 PM
I would like to see how they fare if the shoe was reverse from their playing career, Shaub playing through all the carousel of coaches and systems for seven years and Smith playing under one coach and one system. I think Schaub becomes a mess and won't see year 5 with SF. Smith with a legit threat in AJ has reason to throw it deep and thus is never develop into a game manager like he is now. We be in 1 more playoffs but still no super bowl.

Smith under the right system proved he can be successful. He even played well enough in the playoff to win. So the question if can perform in playoffs is already answered while Schaub is still a big ?

Now let's ask this question: If Smith played under Harbaugh the same amount Schaub had with Kubiak, how ridiculous this thread would be. So the folks here saying Smith can't hold Schaub jock strap is severely unfair.

Smith is better. But he's still not our answer to the SB if he was our QB.

Perki-Perk
12-27-2012, 08:25 PM
If I step out of my Texans gear and take off my homer glasses and consider the situation, I come to one conclusion.

If we had an opponent coming up and their starting QB was Matt Shaub...meh.

For you Shaub lovers, sorry, it's just the way I see it. I don't know how well he'd do against our secondary the past few weeks, and they made Henne look pretty legit.

The first few games of the season, Shaub looked crisp and decisive. I ALMOST bought his jersey, then he came back down to earth and now all I can think of is "oh boy" Shaub after that interception he threw in OT against the Ravens in 2010. Accuracy, Arm Strength, hell, overall physical strength and ability to perform are constant question marks that we argue about here.

People on the Pats, Packers, Broncos, etc...boards are not arguing any of that.

thunderkyss
12-28-2012, 12:09 PM
If I step out of my Texans gear and take off my homer glasses and consider the situation, I come to one conclusion.

If we had an opponent coming up and their starting QB was Matt Shaub...meh.

For you Shaub lovers, sorry, it's just the way I see it. I don't know how well he'd do against our secondary the past few weeks, and they made Henne look pretty legit.

The first few games of the season, Shaub looked crisp and decisive. I ALMOST bought his jersey, then he came back down to earth and now all I can think of is "oh boy" Shaub after that interception he threw in OT against the Ravens in 2010. Accuracy, Arm Strength, hell, overall physical strength and ability to perform are constant question marks that we argue about here.

People on the Pats, Packers, Broncos, etc...boards are not arguing any of that.

Still. If I were the opposing coach, I'm game planning for the good Matt & hoping he doesn't show up. However, I know I have no idea which guy will show up.

Odds are in my favor that I will get the guy the Vikings whupped.

Still, if I'm the coach of the Colts, I know it doesn't matter because my starters aren't capable of beating the bad Matt. Bad Matt shows up & I can make it look like a game. Good Matt shows up & I'll put my back-ups in & say I'm resting my starters for the play-offs.

Rey
12-28-2012, 12:11 PM
Still, if I'm the coach of the Colts, I know it doesn't matter because my starters aren't capable of beating the bad Matt. Bad Matt shows up & I can make it look like a game.

Schaub played ok last time we played the Colts at home.

Are you forgetting that Braman blocked a punt for a TD?

That game wasn't some lop sided ass kicking. Yeah we won pretty handily, but lets not act like we came out and mopped the floor with them.

klockWork
12-28-2012, 12:34 PM
Take away a goal line fumble and block punt, two freakish play that hardly happen in football, both happened in one game. I'll go out on a limb and say that's probably the first that ever happen in the nfl.

So yeah take those plays away and ask ourselves did we actually convinced the Colts that they can't beat us?

mussop
12-28-2012, 12:37 PM
Schaub played ok last time we played the Colts at home.

Are you forgetting that Braman blocked a punt for a TD?

That game wasn't some lop sided ass kicking. Yeah we won pretty handily, but lets not act like we came out and mopped the floor with them.

Don't forget they fumbled on the goaline too. That's two mistakes that really was the difference in the game. This game might not be the cakewalk people are making it out to be.

thunderkyss
12-28-2012, 12:38 PM
Schaub played ok last time we played the Colts at home.

Are you forgetting that Braman blocked a punt for a TD?

That game wasn't some lop sided ass kicking. Yeah we won pretty handily, but lets not act like we came out and mopped the floor with them.

Never said we mopped the floor with them, but the game was never in question. We controlled the clock & the tempo.

We forced a fumble, we blocked a punt, and their last score, was from a boneheaded mistake by someone who got benched. Take that score away (if you're taking away our blocked punt) then the game was just as lopsided as the score suggests.

We gained more than 100 yards offensively, we held the ball 5 minutes longer, they could not convert on 3rd down.

The Colts are as bad as the Titans. Right now, Locker is a better QB. This bad Texans team owned the Titans at home & away.

thunderkyss
12-28-2012, 12:41 PM
Don't forget they fumbled on the goaline too. That's two mistakes that really was the difference in the game. This game might not be the cakewalk people are making it out to be.

Mistakes?

Jj Watt getting up in Ballard's schit isn't a mistake. Bryan Braman beating that blocker isn't a mistake. It's just a matter of time before that ball comes out.

Demps sitting & watching a player run past him for a score... that's a mistake.

mussop
12-28-2012, 02:00 PM
Mistakes?

Jj Watt getting up in Ballard's schit isn't a mistake. Bryan Braman beating that blocker isn't a mistake. It's just a matter of time before that ball comes out.

Demps sitting & watching a player run past him for a score... that's a mistake.

Back away from the :koolaid:!

Uncle Rico
12-28-2012, 08:25 PM
its like trying to pick between snooky or any random skank from the bad girls club.

Corrosion
12-29-2012, 12:41 AM
Schaub played ok last time we played the Colts at home.

Are you forgetting that Braman blocked a punt for a TD?

That game wasn't some lop sided ass kicking. Yeah we won pretty handily, but lets not act like we came out and mopped the floor with them.

5-6 in FG attempts .... ugh. Finish a drive please ? That game was much closer than it should have been.

dream_team
12-29-2012, 12:46 AM
Don't forget they fumbled on the goaline too. That's two mistakes that really was the difference in the game. This game might not be the cakewalk people are making it out to be.

You can say that about a lot of games. You can even say the Packers beat us due to two mistakes.

Wolf
12-29-2012, 04:51 PM
For you stats guys, this breakdowns EVERYTHING(and then some) for passing stats


http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/5615/matt-schaub

thunderkyss
12-29-2012, 06:30 PM
For you stats guys, this breakdowns EVERYTHING(and then some) for passing stats


http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/5615/matt-schaub

Wow...... glad that guy is our QB.

I still don't like him. He needs to do more winning.

ObsiWan
12-30-2012, 08:12 AM
For you stats guys, this breakdowns EVERYTHING(and then some) for passing stats


http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/5615/matt-schaub

Wow... inside the 20 - in the red zone - passing at a 60% rate and has 25 TDs to ONE pick.
Sure doesn't "feel" like that.

thunderkyss
12-30-2012, 11:00 AM
Wow... inside the 20 - in the red zone - passing at a 60% rate and has 25 TDs to ONE pick.
Sure doesn't "feel" like that.

Because we've got the best Red Zone back in the league. We get inside the 20 & we're running the ball.

It's very difficult to not see the coaching weakness when you have Schaub, Andre, OD, & Arian on the same team, but you're 1-5 in the Red Zone against the Colts.

Playoffs
12-30-2012, 11:23 AM
Who's better Schaub or A Smith?I say Akili Smith, for sure. :kitten:

mussop
12-30-2012, 02:45 PM
Because we've got the best Red Zone back in the league. We get inside the 20 & we're running the ball.

It's very difficult to not see the coaching weakness when you have Schaub, Andre, OD, & Arian on the same team, but you're 1-5 in the Red Zone against the Colts.

Is that why we kick so many field goals?

mussop
11-25-2013, 03:57 PM
Bump just because there is nothing better to talk about. How many of you that picked Schaub feel stupid now? :kitten:

Corrosion
11-25-2013, 04:04 PM
Bump just because there is nothing better to talk about. How many of you that picked Schaub feel stupid now? :kitten:

30-7 over three years .... Hard to argue with the results.

Exascor
11-25-2013, 04:24 PM
30-7 over three years .... Hard to argue with the results.

Guess he's better than Tom Brady too. Haven't we learned that winning is not a stat that can be used to evaluate a QB without looking at everything else he does? VY anyone?

Rey
11-25-2013, 05:28 PM
Our run game and bootleg don't work because teams are going to make Matt Schaub beat them. Better teams with smarter D-coordinators realize that.

Don't go out there and try to make spectacular plays. Stay true to your responsibility, load up on the run, don't bite on play-action. If you do that the the QB has almost zero chance of doing anything outside the box to make plays.

Of course the flip side of that is having your offense make some plays on our defense. If you turn the ball over and don't move the ball, we will beat you...even if it's based on a bunch of field goals....

But if you play solid defense and have an offense that can move the ball and put up points, I'm giving us 15% chance to win games.

I said this last year. 15% might not have been too far off.

welsh texan
11-25-2013, 05:30 PM
In 3 years time well have a better idea on what the best option was. If we nail our QB situation first time, sticking with Schaub will have worked out for the best long haul.

If we end up in a jets, titans, jags situation where you can't give up on a 'soft' bust QB (not too far away from performing to not get the chance for 3 or 4 years, but bad enough to hold you back) then smith will seem the better option.

I don't see anything in smith that Schaub wasn't capable of a few years back had he had the supporting cast, but the QB isn't setting the standard over there, the d is and that will be found out in the playoffs.

Double Barrel
11-25-2013, 05:40 PM
Bump just because there is nothing better to talk about. How many of you that picked Schaub feel stupid now? :kitten:

You took a lot of heat in this thread, and much of it was over the top and undeserved. But such is the nature of asking an unpopular question at the time, I suppose.

It's funny to read some of the stuff in hindsight. I'm still of the mindset that Smith is a serviceable QB, and now that he's got a great defense and solid running game, he can be a good manager (which I said about both Flacco and Schaub, as well).

dream_team
11-25-2013, 06:13 PM
Bump just because there is nothing better to talk about. How many of you that picked Schaub feel stupid now? :kitten:

I'd still take Schaub over Alex. I'd also take Case over Alex. Alex has proven time and time again what type of QB he'd be without a defense to carry the team.

Playoffs
11-25-2013, 06:44 PM
How many of you that picked Schaub feel stupid now?

Couldn't predict Schaub would become a pick-6 turnover machine.

As far as Smith, FootballOutsiders for one thinks he's pretty average this year (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb). They have Case Keenum(19) ranked higher than Smith(22) out of 43 total.

Keenum's QBR(42.5) (ESPN derived stat) is just below Smith's(44.2). Peyton's is 82.8 (through week 11.)

I still think Smith is a game manager, but a good one. He hurts #1 WRs, imo, and I think he would have diminished AJ.

He's a perfect fit for a very talented Chiefs team. But I don't think Harbaugh is losing any sleep that he's gone.

mussop
11-25-2013, 07:14 PM
I'd still take Schaub over Alex. I'd also take Case over Alex. Alex has proven time and time again what type of QB he'd be without a defense to carry the team.

Okay doky. :smiliepalm:

mussop
11-25-2013, 07:30 PM
Couldn't predict Schaub would become a pick-6 turnover machine.

As far as Smith, FootballOutsiders for one thinks he's pretty average this year (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb). They have Case Keenum(19) ranked higher than Smith(22) out of 43 total.

Keenum's QBR(42.5) (ESPN derived stat) is just below Smith's(44.2). Peyton's is 82.8 (through week 11.)

I still think Smith is a game manager, but a good one. He hurts #1 WRs, imo, and I think he would have diminished AJ.

He's a perfect fit for a very talented Chiefs team. But I don't think Harbaugh is losing any sleep that he's gone.

There were some of us who could see what Schaub really was and where he was heading. But there was a large contingent that couldn't and they constantly bombarded us with past stats and crap like the above.

Seriously of you step back and look at Case objectively you can't come away very impressed. Sure he's had some moments but overall he's just not very good. Not to diminish what he has accomplished under the circumstances but c'mon to say he is as good as Smith right now is ridiculous. .

Norg
11-25-2013, 09:03 PM
we could of had peyton manning or Ben rotherburger



/ thread

Uncle Rico
11-25-2013, 10:07 PM
its like trying to pick between snooky or any random skank from the bad girls club.

Looky here, such harsh words coming from a "schaub apologist/advocate" LOL

Some of you guys are so wishy washy ! Lots of giggles from this thread.

DBCooper
11-25-2013, 10:15 PM
Bump just because there is nothing better to talk about. How many of you that picked Schaub feel stupid now? :kitten:

You want a cookie?

handswarmer
11-27-2013, 07:16 AM
Bump just because there is nothing better to talk about. How many of you that picked Schaub feel stupid now? :kitten:

They are the same guy

- awesome when they have playmakers around them

- shrinking violets when the pressure is on them to carry the team

Playoffs
11-27-2013, 01:00 PM
But there was a large contingent that couldn't and they constantly bombarded us with past stats and crap like the above...

They're current stats, and that's the best objective way we have to measure. Go to CHFF or FO or PFF and YTD Smith is ~middle of the pack.

Smith has never been a plus QB for me. His best attribute is he NOT a minus QB.

If I have a SB caliber team right now Smith is a good choice because he won't lose games for you. (Unless you have Colin Kaepernick in the wings, then Smith is holding you back.) But I want to see more from Keenum. He can extend plays and has put the ball downfield nicely with a poor offensive line and a team spiraling down into the abyss. Case has made some plus plays. (Ask AJ.) And looked like a rookie at times, too. Can he minimize the minus plays? I'd like to see more.

we could of had.. Ben rotherburger


I'll have mine with tomatoes, cheese, pickles, onions, and fries please. :kitten:

Double Barrel
11-27-2013, 04:35 PM
You want a cookie?

http://thatisevil.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/4474065261_4f95455a3d_z.jpg

handswarmer
11-28-2013, 02:03 PM
They're current stats, and that's the best objective way we have to measure. Go to CHFF or FO or PFF and YTD Smith is ~middle of the pack.

Smith has never been a plus QB for me. His best attribute is he NOT a minus QB.

If I have a SB caliber team right now Smith is a good choice because he won't lose games for you. (Unless you have Colin Kaepernick in the wings, then Smith is holding you back.) But I want to see more from Keenum. He can extend plays and has put the ball downfield nicely with a poor offensive line and a team spiraling down into the abyss. Case has made some plus plays. (Ask AJ.) And looked like a rookie at times, too. Can he minimize the minus plays? I'd like to see more.

Smith is the same as Schaub- they need playmakers around them.

Smith and KC will be one and done in the playoffs- load the box and dare him to beat you- KC has no TE, DBowe is an invisible man and Charles is the only playmaker left. Their defense is carrying them and when Houston/Hali went out, you saw what happened vs SD.

mussop
11-28-2013, 03:02 PM
Smith is the same as Schaub- they need playmakers around them.

Their defense is carrying them and when Houston/Hali went out, you saw what happened vs SD.

Smith put up 38?

mussop
11-28-2013, 03:04 PM
You want a cookie?

I prefer a brownie button. :smooch:

mussop
11-28-2013, 03:08 PM
They're current stats, and that's the best objective way we have to measure. Go to CHFF or FO or PFF and YTD Smith is ~middle of the pack.

Smith has never been a plus QB for me. His best attribute is he NOT a minus QB.

If I have a SB caliber team right now Smith is a good choice because he won't lose games for you. (Unless you have Colin Kaepernick in the wings, then Smith is holding you back.) But I want to see more from Keenum. He can extend plays and has put the ball downfield nicely with a poor offensive line and a team spiraling down into the abyss. Case has made some plus plays. (Ask AJ.) And looked like a rookie at times, too. Can he minimize the minus plays? I'd like to see more.



I'll have mine with tomatoes, cheese, pickles, onions, and fries please. :kitten:



Never said smith was anything other than A better option than Schaub at the time this thread was made. The point of this thread was to show the Schaub supporters that used his stats as evidence to his worthiness that stats are worthless.

handswarmer
11-29-2013, 11:46 AM
Smith put up 38?

Smith put up 38 with JCharles getting 115 yds vs the Chargers in the 11th game of the season with 10 games of tape to look at....

Schaub put up 31 with Foster getting 57 yds vs the Chargers in the 1st game of the season where the defenses have the advantage....

mussop
11-29-2013, 12:05 PM
Smith put up 38 with JCharles getting 115 yds vs the Chargers in the 11th game of the season with 10 games of tape to look at....

Schaub put up 31 with Foster getting 57 yds vs the Chargers in the 1st game of the season where the defenses have the advantage....

Reaching much???? Look smith is nothing special but Schaub couldn't hold his jock strap right now. And when this thread was started it was obvious to some of us that Schaub was heading down this path. That is all.

handswarmer
11-29-2013, 12:42 PM
Reaching much???? Look smith is nothing special but Schaub couldn't hold his jock strap right now. And when this thread was started it was obvious to some of us that Schaub was heading down this path. That is all.

Not reaching- its called game analysis

I've never thought that Schaub was the kind of Qb to win a SB with anyway. Same for Alex Smith.

both need a lot of playmakers around them with a strong defense for them to succeed.

Neither is a QB that can carry a team for a game...

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
11-29-2013, 03:50 PM
They both suck. One guy is a pick 6 machine and the other throws a checkdown to the RB in the flat on the last play of the game from his own 30. What was the point of necroing this thread lol

HJam72
11-30-2013, 09:35 AM
I'd rather have Smith, but he's not exactly my dream QB. We're comparing a mediocre QB gone bad to a mediocre QB who hasn't gone bad yet.

TejasTom
12-01-2013, 09:02 AM
What's better a cold or the flu?

Playoffs
12-01-2013, 06:38 PM
Smith is making plus plays today.

amazing80
12-01-2013, 06:43 PM
Smith is making plus plays today.

yea too bad his wrs were dropping balls all over the field today....that was a great game though

handswarmer
12-01-2013, 06:49 PM
Smith is making plus plays today.

Some great throws, some very poor throws....


Same as Schaub

Mr teX
12-01-2013, 09:57 PM
Some great throws, some very poor throws....


Same as Schaub

Basically....

Norg
12-01-2013, 10:03 PM
I think Matt is better .............. :koolaid:

handswarmer
12-02-2013, 12:01 PM
Basically....

Cant convince any Chiefs fans of this today though.....they put it all on the WR's and their drops.....

WolverineFan
12-02-2013, 12:06 PM
They are both checkdown machines who try to manage the game. The difference them is that one is mobile and doesn't turn the ball over. I would take Smith in a heartbeat over Schaub.

Playoffs
12-02-2013, 12:29 PM
wrong thread