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Yankee_In_TX
12-17-2012, 08:38 AM
So Schaub was discussing the game this morning. He was very comfortable with the field goals given the down and distances. For instance, on the 3rd and 15 (goal) he said (paraphrasing) pretty much every team will just run the ball and kick the field goal, you don't want to risk a turnover.

Does this attitude of our QB and HC worry anyone?

rmartin65
12-17-2012, 08:42 AM
So Schaub was discussing the game this morning. He was very comfortable with the field goals given the down and distances. For instance, on the 3rd and 15 (goal) he said (paraphrasing) pretty much every team will just run the ball and kick the field goal, you don't want to risk a turnover.

Does this attitude of our QB and HC worry anyone?

It absolutely worries me. Sure, you dont throw into double coverage, but you shouldn't do that anyway. Throw a safe pass to the corner of the end zone, either our guy gets it, or its an incomplete. However, I dont think Schaub is good enough to make that throw consistently. That may be why we dont ever see that throw.

thunderkyss
12-17-2012, 08:51 AM
It absolutely worries me. Sure, you dont throw into double coverage, but you shouldn't do that anyway. Throw a safe pass to the corner of the end zone, either our guy gets it, or its an incomplete. However, I dont think Schaub is good enough to make that throw consistently. That may be why we dont ever see that throw.

I agree. The draw play from there gives you the worst odds of scoring a TD or even making a positive play. Put the ball in the QB's hands. Maybe he can hit someone on a slant that scores. Maybe he sees nothing & he throws it away.

However, I think Kubiak saw 2 plays get blown up, another mistake just waiting to happen. So he went with the safest play. I guarantee no one would be giving Gary a pass, if he called a fade to Andre that's picked off & changes the momentum of the game.

This team (as we saw against New England) is still capable of giving games away.

I don't agree with that approach. They'll never grow if you keep protecting them. I like what Harbaugh is doing with his green QB. That guy made some bone headed decisions, but the rest of the team stepped up & minimized their effects. We tend to snowball. He needs to figure out why that's the case & fix it. I think it's because we have such a hodge-podge of players on offense, only two first round picks. Two guys who are used to winning, expect to win.

Defensively we've got the pedigree, of guys who expect to win.

Seņor Stan
12-17-2012, 08:51 AM
Not every offense can consitantly hang 3 burgers on fools!!!

Hervoyel
12-17-2012, 08:54 AM
So Schaub was discussing the game this morning. He was very comfortable with the field goals given the down and distances. For instance, on the 3rd and 15 (goal) he said (paraphrasing) pretty much every team will just run the ball and kick the field goal, you don't want to risk a turnover.

Does this attitude of our QB and HC worry anyone?


No, it doesn't. It's correct if unappealing on the surface. Sometimes I wish they'd get their gamble on a little more but it's not like this doesn't work. It's obviously working just fine and has been since, well probably since 2007 to be honest.

Gary fixed the offense (fixed by his definition I think) in 2007 when he brought Schaub in and our offensive stats started climbing. What he didn't fix was the defense and that is why we were looking at 8-8, 8-8, 9-7, and 6-10. A defense of any ability on those teams probably turns that into at least a few 10+ win seasons with a little luck against the injury bug mixed in.

We're good. Remains to be seen if we're good enough but you know, after watching the 49'ers in the first half of their game last night make the Patriots look like us when we played the Patriots, and then nearly collapse and give it all away I'm forced to conclude that NFL football is a game of preparedness and controlled emotion. We're as good as any team in the league. Getting better isn't going to happen because there is no "better" in terms of collected talent out there. It's about coaching and consistency and finding a spark ("it" factor, whatever). Teams get hot and cold through the course of the year and we talk about peaking too soon or too late. Harbaugh changed out Smith for Kapernick (sp?) and at the time I thought he was making a mistake but Kap gives them a spark and the rest is already in place. Coaching is solid, talent level is consistent with a contender, and they have enough experience to handle adversity. Add a spark and things happen.

The Texans are young, don't all know how to handle adversity too well, and at least on the offensive side we don't have anyone giving us that spark consistently. Sometimes AJ can do it, Foster can get rolling and make it happen. Every once in a while Schaub has a magic day where he can do it. No one there consistently does it though. Not like Watt does on the defensive side. That's the difference between Schaub and the Bradys and Rogers of the world. Mostly Schaub runs the machine and sometimes he provides the energy with his play. Those other guys that get the elite title get it because they make it happen most of the time and when they don't get it done that's the exception to the rule.

What we've been seeing for most of the last 6-7 games has been a good team with no spark on offense. We're just good enough to beat most teams and we got lucky a little too. AJ stepped up and put the team on his shoulders for a few weeks.

Somebody on the offense needs to throw this thing on his shoulders and lead on the field, hold everyone else accountable, and provide the spark that makes the offense run like it is capable of running during the playoffs. Doesn't matter who but someone needs to bring the energy. That's what I think anyway.

I don't hold this over Kubiak anymore. He built the kind of offense that he knows how to build and he's seen it work in the past. It's up to the guys on the field to make plays now.

Exascor
12-17-2012, 08:57 AM
Does this attitude of our QB and HC worry anyone?Not really. It's just smart football. It's not always pretty but it works. We scream at the TV when we see it but the end result is the same. 12 times Kubiak & Schaub have won this season using that strategy. We could add more from last year as well. The system works most of the time. Actually Kubiak's system has worked more times this season than Belichick's system. No reason to be worried.

TheRealJoker
12-17-2012, 09:01 AM
We typically don't beat teams that Kubiak believes we can't "settle for FG's" against. EX: Peyton's Colts, Rodgers, Brady, Brees. When Kubiak feels like he has to be aggressive in his playcalling we make bad decisions.

Mr teX
12-17-2012, 09:11 AM
Arm strength has 0 to do with why we don't throw in the red zone. It's b/c the field is shorter, defenders are in closer proximity than they normally are, which makes them a little more agressive driving on short crossing routes & curls, def coordinators are less afraid of being burned if they choose to blitz...it's just too risky for an offense. Matt's right, against good teams you have to take the points when you can get them...don't even see why this is a debate.

Fans keep calling for that fade/jump ball throw to AJ like it's a surefire TD if we throw it to him just b/c on paper the match up favors us 9 out of 10 times. Those kind of throws are at best 50/50 balls b/c many times the db doesn't have to turn his back & run with the WR..he can just back up & get a hand on the ball....possibly tip it to himself or another nearby defender.

Last year this is all Stafford & Calvin Johnson did in the end zone & they were extremely successful...This year, not so much. & we all saw what happened to the Ravens right before the half yesterday trying to do this exact same thing; pick 6 the other way.


Maybe you mix up your playcalling a bit and run a few trick pass plays but for the most part i agree with schaub here & don't really have a problem with them taking the points.

Running the ball is a strength of ours, we've got 1 of the best rb's in the game that has a nose for the end zone.

gtexan02
12-17-2012, 09:25 AM
We've had red zone problems for a while now. Not sure what the problem is

thunderkyss
12-17-2012, 09:32 AM
Somebody on the offense needs to throw this thing on his shoulders and lead on the field, hold everyone else accountable, and provide the spark that makes the offense run like it is capable of running during the playoffs. Doesn't matter who but someone needs to bring the energy. That's what I think anyway.


Solid post Hervoyel. I agree with everything you said, except, I believe that person has to be Matt Schaub. No two ways about it.

He's the QB, he runs the offense. I don't mean that he needs to be Tom Brady. I don't think he needs to run up the stats. He needs to be the leader.

I know, you'll have some guys coming in here & saying to a T the guys in the locker room point towards Matt Schaub being the leader of the offense, but he needs to take it to another level.

When we need a play, Matt should be able to demand it from his guys & they should deliver. If that's not happening, he's not the guy we need.

He's not elite, we know that. He's not clutch, we know that. He's not athletic, we know that. He doesn't have the strongest arm in the league, we know that. For him to be the guy to keep us in Super Bowl contention year in & year out, Matt has to be the kind of leader we see in the great QBs.

It's obvious when you look at Young, Montana, Aikman, Brady, Manning. He doesn't have to yell at the players on the field, those guys may have done that, but that's not what made them great leaders.

Is Schaub the leader of offense? Sure. Is he a great leader?

I think we're about to find out.

Yankee_In_TX
12-17-2012, 09:35 AM
I'll rep and read the responses later, some very well thought out replies.

Something relevant that should have been in the OP - they were apparently very worried about the edge rushers the entire game. He did not reference that when speaking to the field goals, but seems like Schaub and Kubiak we worried about the D's ability to get to Schaub.

That may have factored into the conservative play/attitude.

76Texan
12-17-2012, 09:43 AM
We typically don't beat teams that Kubiak believes we can't "settle for FG's" against. EX: Peyton's Colts, Rodgers, Brady, Brees. When Kubiak feels like he has to be aggressive in his playcalling we make bad decisions.

Kubiak is 1-1 against Rodgers and Brees.
He's 1-2 against Brady, but the team he took over was in rebuilding mode.
We lost a bunch to Manning for the same reason (several games were close).

This system has been proven with the Broncos for a long time, and now here.

With a top 10 defense it brings competitive (play-off contending) years in and years out.

Percentage football, that's what I always call it.

P.S. - Nice post, Herv.

noxiousdog
12-17-2012, 09:50 AM
Also, I'm not sure it's accurate to put it on Schaub. He's a very politically correct guy and he's going to echo the coach regardless.

El Tejano
12-17-2012, 09:57 AM
I don't like it because our kicker's name needs to be Shank Graham.

eriadoc
12-17-2012, 09:58 AM
As a rule, it doesn't bother me. Like any rule, however, it should always be breakable. There are times, like the first FG of the game yesterday, when you take the FG and don't look back. I get the frustration on that series, because it's been building in fans for years. But it's absolutely correct to take the FG. What bothers me about the mindset is that it seems to have removed any thought of even TRYING at times. If it's 3rd and long, there are plays you can run that are reasonable in their risk vs. reward that actually give a chance to accomplish something. A 3rd and long draw play is simply giving up. That's the right move sometimes, but not to the point that Kubiak and Schaub do it.

At the end of it all, I get the feeling that Kubiak is so much a control freak that he won't entrust his QB and offense to take a shot. Whether he can trust them or not, this is the team that he put together. So if he thinks he can't trust them to take a shot at the end zone without turning it over, then why the hell did he choose players he can't trust?

eriadoc
12-17-2012, 09:59 AM
Kubiak is 1-1 against Rodgers and Brees.

Lost to Brees last year, lost to Rodgers this year. Didn't read the rest.

76Texan
12-17-2012, 10:01 AM
Lost to Brees last year, lost to Rodgers this year. Didn't read the rest.

Won against them before.
How can you not remember the frozen tundra?

Seņor Stan
12-17-2012, 10:02 AM
I don't like it because our kicker's name needs to be Shank Graham.

Shayne Graham is the team's sole ginger. Gingers have no soul. Discuss....

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/mind_blown.gif

eriadoc
12-17-2012, 10:06 AM
Won against them before.
How can you not remember the frozen tundra?

I remember. So that makes the record 1-2, not 1-1. Was just pointing out the loss you overlooked is all.

76Texan
12-17-2012, 10:16 AM
I remember. So that makes the record 1-2, not 1-1. Was just pointing out the loss you overlooked is all.

Texans had a 23-10 win against Brees, don't you remember?

Mr teX
12-17-2012, 10:18 AM
Solid post Hervoyel. I agree with everything you said, except, I believe that person has to be Matt Schaub. No two ways about it.

He's the QB, he runs the offense. I don't mean that he needs to be Tom Brady. I don't think he needs to run up the stats. He needs to be the leader.

I know, you'll have some guys coming in here & saying to a T the guys in the locker room point towards Matt Schaub being the leader of the offense, but he needs to take it to another level.

When we need a play, Matt should be able to demand it from his guys & they should deliver. If that's not happening, he's not the guy we need.

He's not elite, we know that. He's not clutch, we know that. He's not athletic, we know that. He doesn't have the strongest arm in the league, we know that. For him to be the guy to keep us in Super Bowl contention year in & year out, Matt has to be the kind of leader we see in the great QBs.

It's obvious when you look at Young, Montana, Aikman, Brady, Manning. He doesn't have to yell at the players on the field, those guys may have done that, but that's not what made them great leaders.

Is Schaub the leader of offense? Sure. Is he a great leader?

I think we're about to find out.

This passage right here is funny. In 1 breath you acknowledge that he isn't elite which all of us in here agree with im sure. But virtually everything you list after that is exactly what makes the elite qbs in the league......well......elite.

You can't have it both ways..he's either elite or he isn't & im sure you're not going to argue that he is elite.........................are you?

Double Barrel
12-17-2012, 11:02 AM
People would be freaking out today if they tried to throw and it got picked. They'd be screaming what an idiot Kubiak is for not playing the percentages and taking the easy points of a gimme FG.

76Texan
12-17-2012, 11:10 AM
People would be freaking out today if they tried to throw and it got picked. They'd be screaming what an idiot Kubiak is for not playing the percentages and taking the easy points of a gimme FG.

To be honest, I used to question his play call, too.

But when I had a chance to really study everything, I found myself an idiot for the most part.

I still question some of his calls, but I don't jump too quickly to a conclusion hardly anymore.

thunderkyss
12-17-2012, 11:23 AM
As a rule, it doesn't bother me. Like any rule, however, it should always be breakable. There are times, like the first FG of the game yesterday, when you take the FG and don't look back. I get the frustration on that series, because it's been building in fans for years. But it's absolutely correct to take the FG. What bothers me about the mindset is that it seems to have removed any thought of even TRYING at times. If it's 3rd and long, there are plays you can run that are reasonable in their risk vs. reward that actually give a chance to accomplish something. A 3rd and long draw play is simply giving up. That's the right move sometimes, but not to the point that Kubiak and Schaub do it.

At the end of it all, I get the feeling that Kubiak is so much a control freak that he won't entrust his QB and offense to take a shot. Whether he can trust them or not, this is the team that he put together. So if he thinks he can't trust them to take a shot at the end zone without turning it over, then why the hell did he choose players he can't trust?

Except there was plenty times in yesterday's game where we were third & long and not only did we take a chance, we converted.

And I don't think he doesn't trust them. I think he understands the pulse of the team. I need to see that series again, but I'm sure the two plays that pushed us back to 3rd & goal from the 15 were pretty bad. When the offense has too many bad plays close together, he will turtle up & I don't know if that's a bad thing.

Yankee_In_TX
12-17-2012, 11:27 AM
Except there was plenty times in yesterday's game where we were third & long and not only did we take a chance, we converted.

And I don't think he doesn't trust them. I think he understands the pulse of the team. I need to see that series again, but I'm sure the two plays that pushed us back to 3rd & goal from the 15 were pretty bad. When the offense has too many bad plays close together, he will turtle up & I don't know if that's a bad thing.

For the OP, I am ONLY referring to the endzone. Schaub said it very matter of factly - kind of 'you're Les Miles' or 'Pete Carroll' if you do anything other than hand off and kick for 3.

My questions is not necesarrily on that one play, but for the entire season is that kind of coaching/attitude part of our redzone problems? Is there reason for concern if we plan to take that to the playoffs?

dalemurphy
12-17-2012, 11:29 AM
When is the last time this team lost a game it led in the second half? It's been a very long time. These are good decisions.

By the way, they do take chances when needed. For instance, at 23-17, the Texans converted a 3rd and 15 to AJ for 17 yards yesterday.

Late in the Denver game, we were up 6 pts with about 2 minutes to go... On 3rd and 4 (or so), we converted the first on a pass to AJ- instead of running the ball to keep the clock moving.

sportfan73
12-17-2012, 11:30 AM
I wouldn't mind this with a rookie QB but I wish we'd take a shot in these spots with Schaub, he can always just chuck it out the back of the endzone.

Yankee_In_TX
12-17-2012, 11:31 AM
When is the last time this team lost a game it led in the second half? It's been a very long time. These are good decisions.

By the way, they do take chances when needed. For instance, at 23-17, the Texans converted a 3rd and 15 to AJ for 17 yards yesterday.

Late in the Denver game, we were up 6 pts with about 2 minutes to go... On 3rd and 4 (or so), we converted the first on a pass to AJ- instead of running the ball to keep the clock moving.

Again, endzone only. Schaub said this specifically about the shortened field when you're on/at the goal line.

ChampionTexan
12-17-2012, 11:31 AM
People would be freaking out today if they tried to throw and it got picked. They'd be screaming what an idiot Kubiak is for not playing the percentages and taking the easy points of a gimme FG.

Yeah, Kubiak has a pretty good record of coaching with the lead and in close games. I'm not saying there's never been a large lead that was surrendered, but there haven't been many, and in the last two years we're 9-2 in games decided by one score (8 points) or less. I don't know this for a fact, but I'm guessing that's the best percentage in the NFL over that period. Yeah, part of that is because of what has been described as "turtling", but in the last two seasons (32 games counting playoff games), there's been one time where we had a double-digit lead and didn't end up winning the game - that was when we took a 10-0 lead on the Saints last season and ended up losing 40-33. During this period, we've never lost a game where we led by 11 or more points.

Yeah, maybe we have weaknesses and areas that need improvement, and maybe the play calling seems conservative and risk averse. And maybe - just maybe - those two things are not unrelated.

Double Barrel
12-17-2012, 11:34 AM
To be honest, I used to question his play call, too.

But when I had a chance to really study everything, I found myself an idiot for the most part.

I still question some of his calls, but I don't jump too quickly to a conclusion hardly anymore.

I'm not going to lie. I wanted him to go for a TD on that play, as well.

However, I did not get pissed off when they settled for 3. I understand percentages and the attitude of depending on your defense, even when they have shown some signs of not being too dependable lately.

Yeah, Kubiak has a pretty good record of coaching with the lead and in close games. I'm not saying there's never been a large lead that was surrendered, but there haven't been many, and in the last two years we're 9-2 in games decided by one score (8 points) or less. Yeah, part of that is because of what has been described as "turtling", but in the last two seasons (32 games counting playoff games), there's been one time where we had a double-digit lead and didn't end up winning the game - that was when we took a 10-0 lead on the Saints last season and ended up losing 40-33. During this period, we've never lost a game where we led by 11 or more points.

Yeah, maybe we have weaknesses and areas that need improvement, and maybe the play calling seems conservative and risk averse. And maybe - just maybe - those two things are not unrelated.

I heard something awhile back on local radio that indicated Kubiak had learned this conservative style from Bill Walsh. Kubiak is certainly not the first HC to play percentages and try to protect a lead, and he won't be the last.

76Texan
12-17-2012, 11:35 AM
For the OP, I am ONLY referring to the endzone. Schaub said it very matter of factly - kind of 'you're Les Miles' or 'Pete Carroll' if you do anything other than hand off and kick for 3.

My questions is not necesarrily on that one play, but for the entire season is that kind of coaching/attitude part of our redzone problems? Is there reason for concern if we plan to take that to the playoffs?

Nope, there has been plenty of time when Kubiak said we need to go get that one yard no matter that the Defense stacks it up.

We've converted plenty of them.

Like a professional gambler, you go with the odds, with an occasional twist here and there.

Stay in the game, it gives you the best percentage to win the tournament.

thunderkyss
12-17-2012, 11:35 AM
This passage right here is funny. In 1 breath you acknowledge that he isn't elite which all of us in here agree with im sure. But virtually everything you list after that is exactly what makes the elite qbs in the league......well......elite.

You can't have it both ways..he's either elite or he isn't & im sure you're not going to argue that he is elite.........................are you?

I'm saying he doesn't have the physical attributes that made those players great/elite. But he's going to have to have their leadership.

76Texan
12-17-2012, 11:41 AM
I'm not going to lie. I wanted him to go for a TD on that play, as well.

However, I did not get pissed off when they settled for 3. I understand percentages and the attitude of depending on your defense, even when they have shown some signs of not being too dependable lately.



I heard something awhile back on local radio that indicated Kubiak had learned this conservative style from Bill Walsh. Kubiak is certainly not the first HC to play percentages and try to protect a lead, and he won't be the last.

Neither Walsh nor Shannahan are the gambling style.

Heck, Walsh didn't even allow Montana much freedom in his first five years.

DB, MSR, as usual.

CloakNNNdagger
12-17-2012, 11:41 AM
Solid post Hervoyel. I agree with everything you said, except, I believe that person has to be Matt Schaub. No two ways about it.

He's the QB, he runs the offense. I don't mean that he needs to be Tom Brady. I don't think he needs to run up the stats. He needs to be the leader.

I know, you'll have some guys coming in here & saying to a T the guys in the locker room point towards Matt Schaub being the leader of the offense, but he needs to take it to another level.

When we need a play, Matt should be able to demand it from his guys & they should deliver. If that's not happening, he's not the guy we need.

He's not elite, we know that. He's not clutch, we know that. He's not athletic, we know that. He doesn't have the strongest arm in the league, we know that. For him to be the guy to keep us in Super Bowl contention year in & year out, Matt has to be the kind of leader we see in the great QBs.

It's obvious when you look at Young, Montana, Aikman, Brady, Manning. He doesn't have to yell at the players on the field, those guys may have done that, but that's not what made them great leaders.

Is Schaub the leader of offense? Sure. Is he a great leader?

I think we're about to find out.

I wonder how many teams would try to seek out and draft their franchise QB
based on those qualifications........has to make you think.......and now has got to leave you praying that we go into the playoffs with that last characteristic not only present, but strong enough to overcome all the other admitted "deficiencies."

thunderkyss
12-17-2012, 12:02 PM
I wonder how many teams would try to seek out and draft their franchise QB
based on those qualifications........has to make you think.......and now has got to leave you praying that we go into the playoffs with that last characteristic not only present, but strong enough to overcome all the other admitted "deficiencies."

If this offense was clicking like it was last year before Schaub got hurt, would you?

Then how many teams have started the season 12-2 & been in a position to get that franchise QB?

As far as the draft goes, I think we should continue to collect picks for the next couple of years until we have enough capital to move up & get our guy without hurting our future.

Yates doesn't run this offense as well as Schaub & I have no idea how Case would do, but I think we'd hold our head above water with them, if our Young OL starts to dominate next year like we did last year. Not that I want either guy to replace Schaub. Just saying if he doesn't complete next season, we'll be all right.

thunderkyss
12-17-2012, 01:04 PM
Ok, just watched the series that ended with the draw on 3rd & goal from the 15.

It was our first drive of the 2nd half, started at 13:53 in the 3rd. Very nice drives, heavy on the run game. Saw a little Tate, a little Posey (run blocking). Foster gets the ball to the 8 yard line.
1st & goal, Myers is blown up, backed into Foster in the backfield. LeStar Jean, worthless block on the backside. Foster stopped for a 1 yard loss.
2nd & goal from the 9. Play action, Schaub getting ready to throw. Freeny blows past Brown, Redding splits Newton & Jones, meet at the QB loss of 6
3rd & goal from the 15. We run the draw, Foster weaves through traffic, is stopped at the 8

So there is three plays back to back to back where someone or a few someones screwed the pooch. Instead of taking a chance on a 4th mistake, he goes with the safe play. The draw.

I'm convinced if we go back to look at every situation where we run the draw on 3rd & forever, it is because we have a string of mistakes leading up to it.

I just don't think we're as talented on offense as we need to be to commit mistake after mistake & be able to overcome it. I'm sure that is why Kubiak calls the game the way he does.

In 2008 & 2009, even 2010 we've seen him take chances & these same situations turn real ugly, real fast.

Hervoyel
12-17-2012, 01:07 PM
Nothing but speculation on my part: Kubiak has a long-term QB project in the works all the time. He never stops looking for the next Houston Texans starting QB. I think when he finds a (late round/UDFA) guy he wants to take a long look at it he brings them in and starts working with them. When that guy stops absorbing information or demonstrates that he's not able to do what he needs to then Kubiak moves on to the next one. Schaub's eventual successor will most likely be somebody we pick up like this and who sticks. Could be Yates or Keenum if he can learn it and do it, could be someone else I think that for Kubiak this is as much his hobby as it is his job.

Mr teX
12-17-2012, 01:14 PM
I'm saying he doesn't have the physical attributes that made those players great/elite. But he's going to have to have their leadership.

How good you are as a leader is often enhanced by what you have accomplished.

Last night Tom Brady's antics were characterized by Collinsworth & company as him being "fiery" and "competitive". Why? b/c he has 3 SB rings & a couple of MVP's.

Now, Jay Cutler/ Phillip Rivers do many of the same things that Brady did last night but both are seen by many as petulant whiny little children...why? the only logical answer is b/c they haven't won anything of significance.

So my question to you is what makes you think that Schaub's coaches & teammates don't think that he has that elite leadership you're speaking of? B/c you could argue his even-kiel attitude is the very definition of what an elite leader is supposed to be. It was the defining characteristic of tons of qb leaders over the years, namely Joe Montana of course.

CloakNNNdagger
12-17-2012, 01:19 PM
Nothing but speculation on my part: Kubiak has a long-term QB project in the works all the time. He never stops looking for the next Houston Texans starting QB. I think when he finds a (late round/UDFA) guy he wants to take a long look at it he brings them in and starts working with them. When that guy stops absorbing information or demonstrates that he's not able to do what he needs to then Kubiak moves on to the next one. Schaub's eventual successor will most likely be somebody we pick up like this and who sticks. Could be Yates or Keenum if he can learn it and do it, could be someone else I think that for Kubiak this is as much his hobby as it is his job.

I tend to agree with you. Like having a hobby such as radio controlled planes..........if one crashes, you can try to repair it.......or just throw it away and get yourself another.

Rey
12-17-2012, 01:23 PM
Arm strength has 0 to do with why we don't throw in the red zone. It's b/c the field is shorter, defenders are in closer proximity than they normally are, which makes them a little more agressive driving on short crossing routes & curls, def coordinators are less afraid of being burned if they choose to blitz..

People don't blitz on passing plays all that often in the redzone. It makes much more sense to sit back in a zone and force the QB to throw into a tight window. If he tries to run it, you have people looking at him.

QB's that can move well and put pressure on the defense with their legs and/or arm tend to have a lot of RED ZONE success.

And I disagree that arm strength doesn't have anything to do with it. IMO it has A LOT to do with it. You said it yourself...The windows are smaller. Arm strength becomes more apparent in shorter spaces. Guys with guns can zip balls into tight spaces on a regular basis. Having some mobility also helps because it makes defenders abandon their zones to stop the QB from running.

Schaub doesn't have either one of those attributes going for him and that's why he's never been a really good Red Zone QB.

Rey
12-17-2012, 01:28 PM
People would be freaking out today if they tried to throw and it got picked. They'd be screaming what an idiot Kubiak is for not playing the percentages and taking the easy points of a gimme FG.

You are probably right...

People would also freak out if Kubiak kept settling for field goals and the ST didn't bail us out with scoring a TD...


Chester Pitts was just on the radio and he said that he did not like when Kubiak would get into the Red Zone and call plays like that. He said that they had done all the work to get down there and then all of a sudden they start calling plays differently.

He didn't say Kubiak was too conservative...he kind of danced around it. But he did say that he didn't like the way the plays were called in the Red Zone.

Rey
12-17-2012, 01:33 PM
So Schaub was discussing the game this morning. He was very comfortable with the field goals given the down and distances. For instance, on the 3rd and 15 (goal) he said (paraphrasing) pretty much every team will just run the ball and kick the field goal, you don't want to risk a turnover.

Does this attitude of our QB and HC worry anyone?

Yes it worries be a little. I'd rather have a coach and QB that are pissed that they didn't drop a 7 spot on their opponents noggin. I wish Kubiak would call some things differently...But whatever...They have more information than I do so they may see something that we don't...

I just don't like the "meh" attitude they have about it. It's almost like they are content with field goals and don't want to risk going for a TD when things get a little dicey.

I don't think Kubiak trusts his offense in those situations. Whatever. He thinks he needs to shelter them...And he would know best...

Ryan
12-17-2012, 01:35 PM
The redzone stuff doesn't always bother me, but the third and long playcalling we have in other parts of the field does bother me. Sure if it's 3rd and 18 at the 3, by all means just call a draw and create more punting room. But half the time they design playcalls that don't get enough yards or whatever. Sometimes i'm all in favor of the ****** it attitude on 3rd and long, and just throw it deep. If it gets picked, it's about the same thing as a punt anyway.

76Texan
12-17-2012, 01:35 PM
I remember. So that makes the record 1-2, not 1-1. Was just pointing out the loss you overlooked is all.

You are probably right...

People would also freak out if Kubiak kept settling for field goals and the ST didn't bail us out with scoring a TD...


Chester Pitts was just on the radio and he said that he did not like when Kubiak would get into the Red Zone and call plays like that. He said that they had done all the work to get down there and then all of a sudden they start calling plays differently.

He didn't say Kubiak was too conservative...he kind of danced around it. But he did say that he didn't like the way the plays were called in the Red Zone.
To be honest with you, Rey.

I've listened to Chester quite a bit; he doesn't have a real clue what the Texans are all about.

There are plenty of things he doesn't know.
He simply doesn't have enough time to watch the Texans; Some of the things he said. He's definitely NOT in the INs.

thunderkyss
12-17-2012, 01:41 PM
So my question to you is what makes you think that Schaub's coaches & teammates don't think that he has that elite leadership you're speaking of? B/c you could argue his even-kiel attitude is the very definition of what an elite leader is supposed to be. It was the defining characteristic of tons of qb leaders over the years, namely Joe Montana of course.

They might. He may have it already. I don't know. If we go on to win the Super Bowl I'd have no choice but to believe he does.

Unless our defense becomes the Baltimore or Tampa Bay Super Bowl winning defenses, there's no way we'll win a Super Bowl if Matt isn't that kind of leader.

Mr teX
12-17-2012, 01:42 PM
People don't blitz on passing plays all that often in the redzone. It makes much more sense to sit back in a zone and force the QB to throw into a tight window. If he tries to run it, you have people looking at him.

QB's that can move well and put pressure on the defense with their legs and/or arm tend to have a lot of RED ZONE success.

And I disagree that arm strength doesn't have anything to do with it. IMO it has A LOT to do with it. You said it yourself...The windows are smaller. Arm strength becomes more apparent in shorter spaces. Guys with guns can zip balls into tight spaces on a regular basis. Having some mobility also helps because it makes defenders abandon their zones to stop the QB from running.

Schaub doesn't have either one of those attributes going for him and that's why he's never been a really good Red Zone QB.

It's a matter of philosophy & situation & tendencies imo. a d-coordinator might choose to blitz if he's trying to force the qb to throw it quickly allowing the db's to sit & drive on those short routes that they know the WR's are going to be running b/c the fear of getting beat deep is pretty much non-existent.

& ok, maybe zero percent was a bit of an exageration...maybe it has about 10% to do with it simply b/c even at the egde of the redzone a 20 yd. throw is nothing for any NFL qb to make & put on a rope...even for guys like schaub....As long as he can step into his throw. His arm strength issues really only rears it's head when he's throwing deep.

Rey
12-17-2012, 01:47 PM
To be honest with you, Rey.

I've listened to Chester quite a bit; he doesn't have a real clue what the Texans are all about.

There are plenty of things he doesn't know.
He simply doesn't have enough time to watch the Texans; Some of the things he said. He's definitely NOT in the INs.

Which has nothing to do with his statements because he was talking about when he played for Kubiak.

He specifically said that when he played Kubiak would go to a different set of play calls for the Red Zone and he didn't like that. He was not commenting on anything they do now. He was recalling his own experiences.

Not sure what that has to do with his analysis.

And BTW, I listen to him a bunch and he is pretty good. He backs the team and their decisions a bunch, so I find it strange that you'd find his takes as ignorant.

thunderkyss
12-17-2012, 01:51 PM
To be honest with you

I've listened to Chester quite a bit; he doesn't have a real clue what the Texans are all about.

There are plenty of things he doesn't know.
He simply doesn't have enough time to watch the Texans; Some of the things he said. He's definitely NOT in the INs.

'76 c'mon. He played for Kubiak, he's talking about his experience, especially on the situation Rey mentioned.

I think there is another issue here. Pitts doesn't like Kubiak. I don't remember all of the specifics, but I'm pretty sure he wanted to play LT. Kubiak tried him there, didn't like it & put him at LG.

I also don't think he was crazy about the ZBS. He was one of the strongest players on the team & before his leg injury, would have been able to start on any power O team in the league.

I personally think he holds back his opinion a lot. I think he likes the Texans, don't want to say anything negative (I mean he's got a job to keep) but he doesn't like Kubiak. If you were to push him, I bet he'd be able to tell us some stories.

76Texan
12-17-2012, 01:52 PM
Which has nothing to do with his statements because he was talking about when he played for Kubiak.

He specifically said that when he played Kubiak would go to a different set of play calls for the Red Zone and he didn't like that. He was not commenting on anything they do now. He was recalling his own experiences.

Not sure what that has to do with his analysis.

And BTW, I listen to him a bunch and he is pretty good. He backs the team and their decisions a bunch, so I find it strange that you'd find his takes as ignorant.
I can't say I remember the exact words, but last night he said something that I can say for sure, he's not IN.

I've always like Pitts as a person, and he wasn't a bad player either.
He just wasn't much into the cut blocking scheme.

76Texan
12-17-2012, 01:55 PM
'76 c'mon. He played for Kubiak, he's talking about his experience, especially on the situation Rey mentioned.

I think there is another issue here. Pitts doesn't like Kubiak. I don't remember all of the specifics, but I'm pretty sure he wanted to play LT. Kubiak tried him there, didn't like it & put him at LG.

I also don't think he was crazy about the ZBS. He was one of the strongest players on the team & before his leg injury, would have been able to start on any power O team in the league.

I personally think he holds back his opinion a lot. I think he likes the Texans, don't want to say anything negative (I mean he's got a job to keep) but he doesn't like Kubiak. If you were to push him, I bet he'd be able to tell us some stories.
I wasn't talking about what he said today, because I didn't listen to it.

Rey
12-17-2012, 01:58 PM
It's a matter of philosophy & situation & tendencies imo. a d-coordinator might choose to blitz if he's trying to force the qb to throw it quickly allowing the db's to sit & drive on those short routes that they know the WR's are going to be running b/c the fear of getting beat deep is pretty much non-existent.



Teams don't blitz a lot in the RZ because you are almost giving up the quick pass.

When you are in the middle of the field and you blitz, guys will play off the recievers a little bit and drive on the short routes because they figure with the blitz they don't have much time to do a double move. if the guy catches the ball, ok...Just make the tackle...

In the redzone you generally don't want to concede any yardage...and then if the WR catches the ball and the guy in coverage on them misses that's almost a guaranteed TD because now you are so thin back in coverage.

& ok, maybe zero percent was a bit of an exageration...maybe it has about 10% to do with it simply b/c even at the egde of the redzone a 20 yd. throw is nothing for any NFL qb to make & put on a rope...even for guys like schaub....As long as he can step into his throw. His arm strength issues really only rears it's head when he's throwing deep.


When throwing deep you can actually hide your arm more, by making faster reads and throwing the ball early. I think Schaub's deep ball passes have some to do with his arm strength, but where it shows up more than any other place is when he has to throw into really tight spaces i.e. the RZ.

But we can agree to disagree on this. No biggie.

Norg
12-17-2012, 02:03 PM
not when the FG range is anything from 45-50 yards out not with this kicker ur better off just punting it or trying to convert a 1st down

The Pencil Neck
12-17-2012, 06:41 PM
So Schaub was discussing the game this morning. He was very comfortable with the field goals given the down and distances. For instance, on the 3rd and 15 (goal) he said (paraphrasing) pretty much every team will just run the ball and kick the field goal, you don't want to risk a turnover.

Does this attitude of our QB and HC worry anyone?

Not me. This is a foot-on-the-throat, grind-out-a-win type of football. This is COWHER type of football (for those people still wanting Cowher in here.) That's Parcells type of football.

Also, I believe that we're setting up tendencies in the regular season so we can break them in the post-season.

thunderkyss
12-17-2012, 06:53 PM
Also, I believe that we're setting up tendencies in the regular season so we can break them in the post-season.

Interesting. I still cannot get my head around the way we played Baltimore in the divisional round last year. I thought that was so anti-Kubiak, so maybe you've got a point.

But the way I see it, without an "elite" QB, to win consistently against the "elite" QBs, we're going to have to keep them off the field. I know that goes against the grain of where the NFL is right now, but the NFL is cyclical. Putting together a good run game & a good defense is easier than finding a franchise QB. Even looking at Andrew Luck yesterday, I'm not sold that the Colts hit the lottery everyone thinks they did.

drs23
12-17-2012, 07:02 PM
Not me. This is a foot-on-the-throat, grind-out-a-win type of football. This is COWHER type of football (for those people still wanting Cowher in here.) That's Parcells type of football.

Also, I believe that we're setting up tendencies in the regular season so we can break them in the post-season.

Thank you TPN. So often people here suggest that the coaching staff does not want everything in the cupboard on film and I agree with this. Though I have no way of proving it except letting the powers that be prove it throughout the playoffs which are right around the corner. That "Denny's Menu" so often discussed I believe will get a lot thicker during the run. Depending on how deep we go and the situations that will most assuredly present themselves I think there will be some calls that leaves this fanbase and others thinking "Where the hell did that come from? I've never seen that before." I think Kubiak is just setting up the pieces. This chess match isn't over. Heck, it hasn't even really started yet. All that keyboard poking to say: Get your :popcorn:ready.

I hope. :worm:

ObsiWan
12-17-2012, 07:05 PM
No, it doesn't. It's correct if unappealing on the surface. Sometimes I wish they'd get their gamble on a little more but it's not like this doesn't work. It's obviously working just fine and has been since, well probably since 2007 to be honest.

Gary fixed the offense (fixed by his definition I think) in 2007 when he brought Schaub in and our offensive stats started climbing. What he didn't fix was the defense and that is why we were looking at 8-8, 8-8, 9-7, and 6-10. A defense of any ability on those teams probably turns that into at least a few 10+ win seasons with a little luck against the injury bug mixed in.

We're good. Remains to be seen if we're good enough but you know, after watching the 49'ers in the first half of their game last night make the Patriots look like us when we played the Patriots, and then nearly collapse and give it all away I'm forced to conclude that NFL football is a game of preparedness and controlled emotion. We're as good as any team in the league. Getting better isn't going to happen because there is no "better" in terms of collected talent out there. It's about coaching and consistency and finding a spark ("it" factor, whatever). Teams get hot and cold through the course of the year and we talk about peaking too soon or too late. Harbaugh changed out Smith for Kapernick (sp?) and at the time I thought he was making a mistake but Kap gives them a spark and the rest is already in place. Coaching is solid, talent level is consistent with a contender, and they have enough experience to handle adversity. Add a spark and things happen.

The Texans are young, don't all know how to handle adversity too well, and at least on the offensive side we don't have anyone giving us that spark consistently. Sometimes AJ can do it, Foster can get rolling and make it happen. Every once in a while Schaub has a magic day where he can do it. No one there consistently does it though. Not like Watt does on the defensive side. That's the difference between Schaub and the Bradys and Rogers of the world. Mostly Schaub runs the machine and sometimes he provides the energy with his play. Those other guys that get the elite title get it because they make it happen most of the time and when they don't get it done that's the exception to the rule.

What we've been seeing for most of the last 6-7 games has been a good team with no spark on offense. We're just good enough to beat most teams and we got lucky a little too. AJ stepped up and put the team on his shoulders for a few weeks.

Somebody on the offense needs to throw this thing on his shoulders and lead on the field, hold everyone else accountable, and provide the spark that makes the offense run like it is capable of running during the playoffs. Doesn't matter who but someone needs to bring the energy. That's what I think anyway.

I don't hold this over Kubiak anymore. He built the kind of offense that he knows how to build and he's seen it work in the past. It's up to the guys on the field to make plays now.
Repped.
I've been singing this mantra for years. The coach/coordinators can only call plays. The players have to step up/man up and beat the guy in front of them and MAKE the plays. If they don't, no play call will work. But when they do, it's a thing of beauty.

Did y'all see Brady and Welker going up and down the Pats' sideline pumping up their teammates. It got them back in the game. That's the "Bring the Energy" part you spoke of. We gotta have some guys on offense do that like Watt and Cushing (man, we miss him) do it on defense.

thunderkyss
12-17-2012, 07:08 PM
Can't think of a better place to drop this.... since we're talking about breaking tendencies & the Denny's Menu.

Listening to the Kubiak show, they asked him about the script in the second half. Kubiak said yeah, they had a script, but since the first few plays were going so well, he scrapped the script & went heavily on the run.

The first drive after the half, Foster had a big run, then a pass to Andre, then we ran it down the field the rest of the way. we used up about 6 minutes on that drive even though we stalled in the redzone & kicked a field goal.

ObsiWan
12-17-2012, 07:19 PM
people don't blitz on passing plays all that often in the redzone. It makes much more sense to sit back in a zone and force the qb to throw into a tight window. If he tries to run it, you have people looking at him.

Qb's that can move well and put pressure on the defense with their legs and/or arm tend to have a lot of red zone success.

And i disagree that arm strength doesn't have anything to do with it. imo it has a lot to do with it. You said it yourself...the windows are smaller. Arm strength becomes more apparent in shorter spaces. Guys with guns can zip balls into tight spaces on a regular basis. Having some mobility also helps because it makes defenders abandon their zones to stop the qb from running.

Schaub doesn't have either one of those attributes going for him and that's why he's never been a really good red zone qb.

qft

Texan_Bill
12-17-2012, 07:41 PM
Not me. This is a foot-on-the-throat, grind-out-a-win type of football. This is COWHER type of football (for those people still wanting Cowher in here.) That's Parcells type of football.

Also, I believe that we're setting up tendencies in the regular season so we can break them in the post-season.

More concerning for me was the two games against two upper tier teams and the results of those two games coupled with how the Texans played. They weren't even competitive. I couldn't care less if we kick 9 field goals and win 27 to 10... Every Super Bowl winner has had ugly wins (with exception of the '85 Bears)...

I don't think teams look for tendancies with the Texans. I think they look at the Texans and think :hmmm: (first thought) should we shut down their running game or take out the passing game? No matter what we pick, what adjustments can we make to slow down the other part of that equation.

Texans_Chick
12-17-2012, 07:57 PM
More concerning for me was the two games against two upper tier teams and the results of those two games coupled with how the Texans played. They weren't even competitive. I couldn't care less if we kick 9 field goals and win 27 to 10... Every Super Bowl winner has had ugly wins (with exception of the '85 Bears)...

I don't think teams look for tendancies with the Texans. I think they look at the Texans and think :hmmm: (first thought) should we shut down their running game or take out the passing game? No matter what we pick, what adjustments can we make to slow down the other part of that equation.

It's the NFL. Texans are near the top of the league in beating quality opponents and not losing to them. http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/stats/2012/16/QS/

Ultimately, I think we are overthinking this. Sometimes you are the windshield, sometimes you are the bug. This year we're the windshield more.

Texan_Bill
12-17-2012, 08:01 PM
It's the NFL. Texans are near the top of the league in beating quality opponents and not losing to them. http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/stats/2012/16/QS/

Ultimately, I think we are overthinking this. Sometimes you are the windshield, sometimes you are the bug. This year we're the windshield more.

No doubt!! I actually had us having one more loss than we do at this point.

What are you gonna do? :gamer:

LikeMike
12-17-2012, 09:13 PM
Relax... the Texans are just letting everyone believe, thats what they do everytime... then at the superbowl all of a sudden - bam, TD!

Just like at the NE game when they were holding back to get them in the playoffs...


... no, I don`t believe it either, but it`s way more fun to think that way...

thunderkyss
12-17-2012, 09:25 PM
Ultimately, I think we are overthinking this. Sometimes you are the windshield, sometimes you are the bug. This year we're the windshield more.

True.... true.

It's amazing that we lose to the Patriots & everything about our team is bad. QB, Coach, Players, Defense, offense, running game, special teams...... well ok, our ST are bad.

But the Patriots do the same thing the following week & they're not so bad. They're still one of two teams we don't want to see in the play-offs.

I understand the Patriots have been there done that & maybe that affords them a pass, I can see how you wouldn't be worried about their ability to win a Super Bowl. But don't they do this every year? Get to the Super Bowl & lose? It feels like it anyway, & no one here would be happy if we get to the Super Bowl & lose.

It's going to be because our QB isn't clutch, it's going to be because our Coach is too conservative, it's going to be because you can't play man coverage against Kaepernick & Harbaugh...

Say, that reminds me. The Patriots didn't win the Super Bowl last year with a clutch, HOF QB & coaching combo & they didn't play a lot of man coverage.

We probably won't win the Super Bowl, but it won't be because of any of those things. It will be because that other team will be better than us that day. That's football. That's just the way it goes.

Joe Texan
12-18-2012, 12:08 AM
This is the NFL, you take the points but you do not sissy up when in the red zone. Sure our QB is going to do what HC wants. But when you 3 and goal from the 7 you should at least try to reach the goal line. I saw where we sissyed up and kicked once or twice and we still won. But we have played some games where we needed 7 points and we got it so what do you do we have a HC while he is not the Best he is 12 and 2. Lets get behind him and hope we dont zig when we needed to Zag

eriadoc
12-18-2012, 12:42 AM
This is the NFL, you take the points but you do not sissy up when in the red zone. Sure our QB is going to do what HC wants. But when you 3 and goal from the 7 you should at least try to reach the goal line. I saw where we sissyed up and kicked once or twice and we still won. But we have played some games where we needed 7 points and we got it so what do you do we have a HC while he is not the Best he is 12 and 2. Lets get behind him and hope we dont zig when we needed to Zag

Really not understanding why you mixed in some periods.

:brando:

theNumber80
12-18-2012, 12:43 AM
Arm strength has 0 to do with why we don't throw in the red zone. It's b/c the field is shorter, defenders are in closer proximity than they normally are, which makes them a little more agressive driving on short crossing routes & curls, def coordinators are less afraid of being burned if they choose to blitz...it's just too risky for an offense. Matt's right, against good teams you have to take the points when you can get them...don't even see why this is a debate.

Fans keep calling for that fade/jump ball throw to AJ like it's a surefire TD if we throw it to him just b/c on paper the match up favors us 9 out of 10 times. Those kind of throws are at best 50/50 balls b/c many times the db doesn't have to turn his back & run with the WR..he can just back up & get a hand on the ball....possibly tip it to himself or another nearby defender.

Last year this is all Stafford & Calvin Johnson did in the end zone & they were extremely successful...This year, not so much. & we all saw what happened to the Ravens right before the half yesterday trying to do this exact same thing; pick 6 the other way.


Maybe you mix up your playcalling a bit and run a few trick pass plays but for the most part i agree with schaub here & don't really have a problem with them taking the points.

Running the ball is a strength of ours, we've got 1 of the best rb's in the game that has a nose for the end zone.

Joe Flacco's pick wasn't a fade...It was a quick out route that Flacco just telegraphed all the way. Last year the fade with Stafford and Megatron was MONEY this year it's different because they don't even throw it because of the double coverage they have on Megatron once they reach the 5. The fade between Dalton and AJ Green is money as well as Romo/Dez, Ryan/Julio, Eli/Nicks(when healthy). When you have a 6'3 230 lb receiver who has a 40 inch vertical YOU HAVE TO THROW THE FADE AT LEAST ONCE. It's just stupid not to give it a try. As long as Schaub throws it right(which means high and to the sideline) it's INCREDIBLY hard to pick it off. Did you guys see Andre's catch when Schaub threw the back shoulder fade? Guess what? We could do that in the redzone as well. You're right when teams get into the redzone the coverage is much tighter which supports the argument of a fade to Andre as long as the coverage is 1 on 1.

TheMatrix31
12-18-2012, 02:21 AM
I think fade routes are entirely overrated.

Most of the time it winds up a totally wasted down.

Mr teX
12-18-2012, 09:52 AM
Joe Flacco's pick wasn't a fade...It was a quick out route that Flacco just telegraphed all the way. Last year the fade with Stafford and Megatron was MONEY this year it's different because they don't even throw it because of the double coverage they have on Megatron once they reach the 5. The fade between Dalton and AJ Green is money as well as Romo/Dez, Ryan/Julio, Eli/Nicks(when healthy). When you have a 6'3 230 lb receiver who has a 40 inch vertical YOU HAVE TO THROW THE FADE AT LEAST ONCE. It's just stupid not to give it a try. As long as Schaub throws it right(which means high and to the sideline) it's INCREDIBLY hard to pick it off. Did you guys see Andre's catch when Schaub threw the back shoulder fade? Guess what? We could do that in the redzone as well. You're right when teams get into the redzone the coverage is much tighter which supports the argument of a fade to Andre as long as the coverage is 1 on 1.


Lol, Stafford is throwing them, they just aren't converting them as much b/c teams know what they like to do once they get into the red zone...like i said in another post addressed to Rey "tendencies". The coverage that Calvin has been seeing has nothing to do with it b/c teams have been sending all kinds of crazy coverage to Megatron....even last year..... it just didn't matter. They just had 1 of those years where they converted an abnormally high # of those type of plays & this year water found it's level.

Getting back on topic though, That fade throw is also incredibly hard for the qb to throw just right for it to be converted. It's also incredibly hard for the WR to catch it & get both feet down in bounds/maintain possession all the way down as well. & with there being no force out rule in effect anymore...it's even harder...Like i said it's a 50-50 ball at best if everything is done perfect & you've got an elite guy out there. If 1 of those variable is even a little out of whack, then it's exactly what matrix31 says..a waste of a down.

& regardless of whether it's was a fade or an out route that Flacco threw the premise about what i'm saying about a db's mentality in the red zone holds true. They're more apt to gamble and drive on short routes b/c they have no fear of getting beat deep & they know the WR's will be running them. They already have the 5 yard chuck rule to further shrink the room available & mess up the timing of the route & if a qb still chooses to force it in there the chances of a pick go up even higher.

So yes the fade is a relatively safe play to run with potentially a big reward..More often than not however you're going to be in a 3rd & long with limited playcalling. & while you may not think this is true, 3rd and 8 plus is alot tougher to convert than 3rd and 5 or less. This assumes that you run the ball for 2.5 yds on all other downs. The playbook options are that much more wide open.

HJam72
12-18-2012, 10:02 AM
True.... true.

It's amazing that we lose to the Patriots & everything about our team is bad. QB, Coach, Players, Defense, offense, running game, special teams...... well ok, our ST are bad.

But the Patriots do the same thing the following week & they're not so bad. They're still one of two teams we don't want to see in the play-offs.

I understand the Patriots have been there done that & maybe that affords them a pass, I can see how you wouldn't be worried about their ability to win a Super Bowl. But don't they do this every year? Get to the Super Bowl & lose? It feels like it anyway, & no one here would be happy if we get to the Super Bowl & lose.

It's going to be because our QB isn't clutch, it's going to be because our Coach is too conservative, it's going to be because you can't play man coverage against Kaepernick & Harbaugh...

Say, that reminds me. The Patriots didn't win the Super Bowl last year with a clutch, HOF QB & coaching combo & they didn't play a lot of man coverage.

We probably won't win the Super Bowl, but it won't be because of any of those things. It will be because that other team will be better than us that day. That's football. That's just the way it goes.

Pats went to the SB 5 times since and counting the 2002 SB and won it 3 times, but their 2 losses are the last 2 against NYG and they haven't won a SB wince Feb. 6, 2005 (2004 season); so, it's been a lot of playoffs and no actual rings since then, not that we can look down on that.

thunderkyss
12-18-2012, 10:10 AM
Pats went to the SB 5 times since and counting the 2002 SB and won it 3 times, but their 2 losses are the last 2 against NYG and they haven't won a SB wince Feb. 6, 2005 (2004 season); so, it's been a lot of playoffs and no actual rings since then, not that we can look down on that.

I agree, I didn't mean anything derogatory towards the Patriots. I'd be happy if that was us since 2002. However, I already get the feeling that we can't win with some of our fans here. I've already heard, "this season means nothing if we don't win the Super Bowl."

& I think that's a crock. I'm not planning a parade or anything, But I do expect a party if we win the AFCCG in Houston and I would have no problem with fans wanting to meet the team at Reliant if they lose the Super Bowl.

This has been an amazing season, as is. We don't look like the best team in football, but we're winning. We're beating decent teams, not the elites, but decent teams.

It's just exhausting.

HJam72
12-18-2012, 11:04 AM
I agree, I didn't mean anything derogatory towards the Patriots. I'd be happy if that was us since 2002. However, I already get the feeling that we can't win with some of our fans here. I've already heard, "this season means nothing if we don't win the Super Bowl."

& I think that's a crock. I'm not planning a parade or anything, But I do expect a party if we win the AFCCG in Houston and I would have no problem with fans wanting to meet the team at Reliant if they lose the Super Bowl.

This has been an amazing season, as is. We don't look like the best team in football, but we're winning. We're beating decent teams, not the elites, but decent teams.

It's just exhausting.

How would you feel if we lose the AFCC, presumably at home?

Dread-Head
12-18-2012, 11:39 AM
So Schaub was discussing the game this morning. He was very comfortable with the field goals given the down and distances. For instance, on the 3rd and 15 (goal) he said (paraphrasing) pretty much every team will just run the ball and kick the field goal, you don't want to risk a turnover.

Does this attitude of our QB and HC worry anyone?

I'm concerned...BUT sometimes you have to come to terms with the fact that you're not going to get a TD on each drive and 3 is better than a goose-egg.

thunderkyss
12-18-2012, 11:54 AM
How would you feel if we lose the AFCC, presumably at home?

I'm not going to be mad at the coach. I'm not going to be mad at the players. I'm not going to be mad at the owner.

I'm going to be heartbroken with my team. I may not even watch the Super Bowl.

But I'm going to be excited & looking forward to next season expecting the best. Expecting to win the Super Bowl.

HJam72
12-18-2012, 12:11 PM
I'm not going to be mad at the coach. I'm not going to be mad at the players. I'm not going to be mad at the owner.

I'm going to be heartbroken with my team. I may not even watch the Super Bowl.

But I'm going to be excited & looking forward to next season expecting the best. Expecting to win the Super Bowl.

Yeah, I guess that's about where I'm at.

Rey
12-18-2012, 12:11 PM
How would you feel if we lose the AFCC, presumably at home?

Upset with the loss, but I have no idea how I'd feel about the players and coaches. I would need to see how we lost.

amazing80
12-18-2012, 07:34 PM
I think it is a BIG issue come playoff time, the 3rd and long draws are getting predictable and ridiculous. 3's won't work against the Pats or Broncos giving their ability to score quickly. Schaub needs to learn to throw it up to AJ ONCE AND AWHILE, the guy is a beast, why no corner fades in the red zone???

76Texan
12-18-2012, 07:42 PM
I think it is a BIG issue come playoff time, the 3rd and long draws are getting predictable and ridiculous. 3's won't work against the Pats or Broncos giving their ability to score quickly. Schaub needs to learn to throw it up to AJ ONCE AND AWHILE, the guy is a beast, why no corner fades in the red zone???

We did throw the fade once in a while.
It doesn't work all that well.

playa465
12-18-2012, 09:01 PM
People would be freaking out today if they tried to throw and it got picked. They'd be screaming what an idiot Kubiak is for not playing the percentages and taking the easy points of a gimme FG.


Remember this hehe...

THE PLAY (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d814bfb36/Gerald-Alexander-INT)

Yankee_In_TX
01-10-2013, 12:49 PM
Just bumping this, since it has become heated conversation after the Bengals game and leading into the Pats game.

Brady > FGs

Here's to hoping we have a coming out party or it is announced Schaub is having major surgery when the season is done.

Vinny
01-10-2013, 01:16 PM
So Schaub was discussing the game this morning. He was very comfortable with the field goals given the down and distances. For instance, on the 3rd and 15 (goal) he said (paraphrasing) pretty much every team will just run the ball and kick the field goal, you don't want to risk a turnover.

Does this attitude of our QB and HC worry anyone?

Combine these thoughts with the recient Kubiak statements about checking down in the red zone and I think its clear that Kubiak doesn't trust Schaub so we try to avoid mistakes as an offensive style.

thunderkyss
01-10-2013, 01:22 PM
I think if you're playing Cincinnati & you're moping the floor with them, if you don't get a TD with the three downs you're allotted, you kick the field goal. Makes no sense to "go for it" on 4th down. You're not proving anything other than you couldn't do it in 3.

If you're playing the Patriots & it's 0-0, you take the 3. If you're down by 3, you take the three. If you're up by three, you kick the field goal.

All the while, you are trying to get a TD. but if you don't get it, you kick the field goal, unless you're down by 7 or more & running out of time.

dalemurphy
01-10-2013, 01:24 PM
Combine these thoughts with the recient Kubiak statements about checking down in the red zone and I think its clear that Kubiak doesn't trust Schaub so we try to avoid mistakes as an offensive style.

This is certainly an issue. However, I think it's less about trusting Schaub and more about trusting the offensive line. Schaub seldom can take a step drop and have time in the pocket. Since Schaub doesn't have a gun and doesn't run, 3rd and goal beyond the 10 is a very difficult position for this team.

gtexan02
01-10-2013, 01:29 PM
I think if you're playing Cincinnati & you're moping the floor with them, if you don't get a TD with the three downs you're allotted, you kick the field goal. Makes no sense to "go for it" on 4th down. You're not proving anything other than you couldn't do it in 3.

If you're playing the Patriots & it's 0-0, you take the 3. If you're down by 3, you take the three. If you're up by three, you kick the field goal.

All the while, you are trying to get a TD. but if you don't get it, you kick the field goal, unless you're down by 7 or more & running out of time.

We agree on this. The issue is Kubiak is playing conservative on 2nd and 3rd down. He's not really going for 6. He's going for 3 from 1st and 10 from the 20. 2 yard completions on 3rd and goal when youre on the 5 are useless. It's safer just to kick on 3rd down. Its the worst of both worlds -- no shot at 6 and risking a turnover

Vinny
01-10-2013, 01:29 PM
This is certainly an issue. However, I think it's less about trusting Schaub and more about trusting the offensive line. Schaub seldom can take a step drop and have time in the pocket. Since Schaub doesn't have a gun and doesn't run, 3rd and goal beyond the 10 is a very difficult position for this team. that's not easy for any team period...but its way more than just a line issue to me...who on this team gets great separation now? Andre can and does, but even he doesn't even create the space he used to be able to create. Everyone else is pretty much a possession receiver.

Porky
01-10-2013, 01:34 PM
that's not easy for any team period...but its way more than just a line issue to me...who on this team gets great separation now? Andre can and does, but even he doesn't even create the space he used to be able to create. Everyone else is pretty much a possession receiver.

Numbers 18 and 86 both have burned the D. The question is, do we have a QB capable of getting it to them?

Vinny
01-10-2013, 01:36 PM
Numbers 18 and 86 both have burned the D. The question is, do we have a QB capable of getting it to them?
Every possession wr in the NFL past and present can burn a d from time to time but you can't just count on tricking people or sneaking one by all the time. This team isn't fast or sudden on offense anymore.

HOU-TEX
01-10-2013, 01:36 PM
From LZ's Twitter. Hard to win if your QB can't help you in the green zone.

Lance Zierlein‏@LanceZierlein

From wks 14-17, Schaub is 13 of 25 for 98 yards, 0 TDs and 2 INTs when attempting passes from between oppon. 39-20 yd line. Hard to win

Lance Zierlein‏@LanceZierlein

Know why Texans are bogging down from week 14-17 & kicking FGs? Maybe it has to do w/ Schaub's 28.4 QB Rating from opponents 39-20 yd line

Yankee_In_TX
01-10-2013, 01:41 PM
Combine these thoughts with the recient Kubiak statements about checking down in the red zone and I think its clear that Kubiak doesn't trust Schaub so we try to avoid mistakes as an offensive style.

I think you're 100% right. So I either want 4 redzone TD's Sunday or the announcement of post season surgery to prove that you're wrong.

If that's our 'style' and 'strategy' (I think it is) then it makes me angry. Even if we went 14-2 and had homefield I would complain about it.

I have NEVER been a Schaub hater, but WTH happened this year? Was I blind in previous years?

76Texan
01-10-2013, 01:51 PM
From LZ's Twitter. Hard to win if your QB can't help you in the green zone.

This is what I was saying awhile ago.

For the year though, Schaub wasn't that bad.
He was mediocre.

I haven't got time to figure out exactly what happened between the 40-20 as of late.

76Texan
01-10-2013, 01:55 PM
We agree on this. The issue is Kubiak is playing conservative on 2nd and 3rd down. He's not really going for 6. He's going for 3 from 1st and 10 from the 20. 2 yard completions on 3rd and goal when youre on the 5 are useless. It's safer just to kick on 3rd down. Its the worst of both worlds -- no shot at 6 and risking a turnover

This is simply not true.
I had broken down all of Schaub's throws in the redzone in another thread.

The Texans did go for the endzone plenty enough as a percentage of number of pass plays. It's just that we called almost twice as many running plays and we weren't quite as good in that department (until we get to the 3 yard line).

I wished Kubiak had called more passing plays between the 20 and 4 yard line.

thunderkyss
01-10-2013, 02:00 PM
We agree on this. The issue is Kubiak is playing conservative on 2nd and 3rd down. He's not really going for 6. He's going for 3 from 1st and 10 from the 20. 2 yard completions on 3rd and goal when youre on the 5 are useless. It's safer just to kick on 3rd down. Its the worst of both worlds -- no shot at 6 and risking a turnover

I'll have to pay more attention, because I'm just not seeing this.

Kubiak doesn't have a run play for 3 yards & a different run play for 15. He calls the play & the guys are supposed to get what they're supposed to get.

He calls a pass and there are usually 3 receivers in the pattern. I don't know if I've ever seen a Gary Kubiak designed passing play where all three receivers are within 5 yards of the LOS.

Porky
01-10-2013, 03:27 PM
Every possession wr in the NFL past and present can burn a d from time to time but you can't just count on tricking people or sneaking one by all the time. This team isn't fast or sudden on offense anymore.

Totally agree. I think Kubes feels that with the play action working and the overall offensive design that any WR good enough to be at this level can get open...and sometimes they can....but because he feels that way, he also doesn't want to invest the draft pick or money it takes to get one.

My point was simply that I've lost confidence in our signal caller to execute those plays, and my guess is so has Kubes...and if we do get a guy that can consistently burn defenses and get separation, how many more under-throws will be made? I mean can you get any more open at this level than James Casey? If that is Brady, that's a TD. With Schaub, it's a pick. So what if you can get open if the signal caller can't get it there with any consistency?

I'm not sure why he seems to be regressing? He's like a movie - The curious Case of Matt Schaub, who started the season as a grizzled vet and slowly becomes a rookie...because that is how he is playing.

Anyone got any theories? I'm wondering about the health and pain in that foot myself.

ThaShark316
01-10-2013, 04:18 PM
Something I hadn't seen from the Texans in a LONG ass time in the red zone? Passes to Arian.

That **** was money in 2010 and 11....only saw it once in 2012. It's time to go back to it.

Vinny
01-10-2013, 04:23 PM
Totally agree. I think Kubes feels that with the play action working and the overall offensive design that any WR good enough to be at this level can get open...and sometimes they can....but because he feels that way, he also doesn't want to invest the draft pick or money it takes to get one.

My point was simply that I've lost confidence in our signal caller to execute those plays, and my guess is so has Kubes...and if we do get a guy that can consistently burn defenses and get separation, how many more under-throws will be made? I mean can you get any more open at this level than James Casey? If that is Brady, that's a TD. With Schaub, it's a pick. So what if you can get open if the signal caller can't get it there with any consistency?

I'm not sure why he seems to be regressing? He's like a movie - The curious Case of Matt Schaub, who started the season as a grizzled vet and slowly becomes a rookie...because that is how he is playing.

Anyone got any theories? I'm wondering about the health and pain in that foot myself. perhaps he has hit his plateau. Perhaps both of them have. Schaub can't move, doesn't have a big arm, not real accurate deep, but has the playbook mastered and is good when everything stacks up right. Kubiak knows the system he was taught, but doesn't seem creative enough to step out of it. It's not a dumb and dumber thing...I'm just kinda thinking that we have Richie Kotite coaching the washed up, end-of-his-career Boomer Esiason for the 95 Jets (http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/new-york-jets/stats/1995) thing going on with our offense. Boomer was a better QB than Schaub ever was, but not when he was with the Jets.

Porky
01-10-2013, 04:44 PM
perhaps he has hit his plateau. Perhaps both of them have. Schaub can't move, doesn't have a big arm, not real accurate deep, but has the playbook mastered and is good when everything stacks up right. Kubiak knows the system he was taught, but doesn't seem creative enough to step out of it. It's not a dumb and dumber thing...I'm just kinda thinking that we have Richie Kotite coaching the washed up, end-of-his-career Boomer Esiason for the 95 Jets (http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/new-york-jets/stats/1995) thing going on with our offense. Boomer was a better QB than Schaub ever was, but not when he was with the Jets.

Good points. Love your football acumen as always, and yes I think that is an apt comparison.

gtexan02
01-10-2013, 05:13 PM
Something I hadn't seen from the Texans in a LONG ass time in the red zone? Passes to Arian.

That **** was money in 2010 and 11....only saw it once in 2012. It's time to go back to it.

If I remember right we were at 3rd and goal from the 5-10 yard line and threw a short completion to Foster last Saturday. He caught it, gained a yard, and was tackled immediately

The Pencil Neck
01-10-2013, 05:54 PM
perhaps he has hit his plateau. Perhaps both of them have. Schaub can't move, doesn't have a big arm, not real accurate deep, but has the playbook mastered and is good when everything stacks up right. Kubiak knows the system he was taught, but doesn't seem creative enough to step out of it. It's not a dumb and dumber thing...I'm just kinda thinking that we have Richie Kotite coaching the washed up, end-of-his-career Boomer Esiason for the 95 Jets (http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/new-york-jets/stats/1995) thing going on with our offense. Boomer was a better QB than Schaub ever was, but not when he was with the Jets.

I disagree with this.

This offense is not the offense Kubes ran in Denver. It's similar. It's got a lot of the same plays. It's based off the same concepts. But Kubiak has added a lot of new wrinkles over the years. He's much more creative with the tight-ends and how he pulls guys. It's not a pure zone blocking scheme all the time now -- it has trap and pull elements now.

jaayteetx
01-10-2013, 06:02 PM
If they take this approach consistently against the Pats Sunday, they'll take the loss and head home.

thunderkyss
01-10-2013, 06:18 PM
I disagree with this.

This offense is not the offense Kubes ran in Denver. It's similar. It's got a lot of the same plays. It's based off the same concepts. But Kubiak has added a lot of new wrinkles over the years. He's much more creative with the tight-ends and how he pulls guys. It's not a pure zone blocking scheme all the time now -- it has trap and pull elements now.

& they added the wham block.

The Patriots used the "wham block" (so termed by John Gruden on MNF) to neutralize Antonio & Watt. The offensive lineman feigns a block, Antonio/Jj feels like they've penetrated the OL, and a TE/WR blindsides him.... seriously deterring his path to the RB.

We did the same thing a couple of times vs Cincinnati to Peko & Atkins. Very affective.

thunderkyss
01-10-2013, 06:25 PM
If they take this approach consistently against the Pats Sunday, they'll take the loss and head home.

In all honesty, I think not taking this approach cost us the Div game last year. It was very uncharacteristic of Kubiak, imo, to press the issue & try to score quick & fast against Baltimore.

According to Bruschi (http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/page/bruschibreakdown-0110/tedy-bruschi-breakdown-new-england-patriots-houston-texans-divisional-playoff-game), it was Schaub pressing, trying to "keep up" with Brady that led to him uncharacteristically throwing that Int when the safe throw was underneath.

Gary-ball built a 20 pt lead on several teams this year, with a little help from the defense, we put 43 on the Ravens.

We need to stop trying to be somebody else, stop "trying" to score points & just play the game. Be the best we can & let the game come to us.

Lucky
01-10-2013, 07:03 PM
I think if you're playing Cincinnati & you're moping the floor with them, if you don't get a TD with the three downs you're allotted, you kick the field goal. Makes no sense to "go for it" on 4th down. You're not proving anything other than you couldn't do it in 3.
The issue isn't going for the TD om 4th down. It's getting the TD in the initial 3 downs. BTW, if you are settling for field goals, you are not "mopping the floor" with anyone.
This is certainly an issue. However, I think it's less about trusting Schaub and more about trusting the offensive line. Schaub seldom can take a step drop and have time in the pocket. Since Schaub doesn't have a gun and doesn't run, 3rd and goal beyond the 10 is a very difficult position for this team.
Schaub's sack percentage is similar to Brady's. Schaub is having no more protection problems than any other QB in the playoffs. He just won't or can't pull the trigger in the red zone. And he has zero mobility to make plays out of the pocket. We can run circles around all of the problems, but if Schaub could make more plays, the Texans would score more TDs.

gafftop
01-10-2013, 07:12 PM
In all honesty, I think not taking this approach cost us the Div game last year. It was very uncharacteristic of Kubiak, imo, to press the issue & try to score quick & fast against Baltimore.

According to Bruschi (http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/page/bruschibreakdown-0110/tedy-bruschi-breakdown-new-england-patriots-houston-texans-divisional-playoff-game), it was Schaub pressing, trying to "keep up" with Brady that led to him uncharacteristically throwing that Int when the safe throw was underneath.

Gary-ball built a 20 pt lead on several teams this year, with a little help from the defense, we put 43 on the Ravens.

We need to stop trying to be somebody else, stop "trying" to score points & just play the game. Be the best we can & let the game come to us.

I agree 100%. Matt is not Brady. We have the best chance to win if we do what we do best not try to do what NE can do.

thunderkyss
01-10-2013, 08:47 PM
The issue isn't going for the TD om 4th down. It's getting the TD in the initial 3 downs. BTW, if you are settling for field goals, you are not "mopping the floor" with anyone.


Sure we are. Just because they don't have a glass chin doesn't mean we weren't ringing their bell.

Texan_Touchdown
01-11-2013, 02:08 PM
there was another thread about eli and matt and this proved it. Matt is all about being safe not making the mistake. Eli is about going big and making the risk.

thunderkyss
01-11-2013, 06:34 PM
there was another thread about eli and matt and this proved it. Matt is all about being safe not making the mistake. Eli is about going big and making the risk.

Eli will be watching Matt safely kick New England's ass in 2 days.

Lucky
01-11-2013, 06:46 PM
Sure we are. Just because they don't have a glass chin doesn't mean we weren't ringing their bell.
They scored 19 points. That includes getting a field goal after the defense put them in field goal range. And let's not forget, the offense gave the Bengals their only TD. In reality, the offense produced a net 9 points. Mopping the floor, ringing the bell? I can tell you what this thread needs (other than a reality check):

http://kristinhoppe.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/needs-more-cowbell.jpg

Ghostform
01-11-2013, 10:18 PM
Looks like we only need to kick 12 to 15 FG's to beat the Pats. In order to achieve this we need to start kicking FG's on 1st,2nd, and 3rd downs once we get into range. TDs are unheard of here.