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View Full Version : Who knew Garrett Graham was that Important to our Offense ?


IDEXAN
12-13-2012, 08:40 AM
(on missing TE Garrett Graham on the field) “Obviously (TE) Garrett (Graham) has done a great job and we missed him the other night. Hoping to have him back. Like we said, anytime you have a guy that’s done well in your system, the more hands out you can have, he does great things in our packages. He’s a physical player, he does well on the line of scrimmage, but he can also beat man (coverage). He’s scored. He’s done things. He’s been a vital cog. If we get him back, the better off we’re going to be.”
http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Quotes-Wednesday-practice/a0b6116f-9a14-4a1a-9d46-e087ba8ba43a
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With Graham out I thought we'd just plug Casey into Graham's position as the #2 TE and go with the new guy at FB, but here's Kubiak talking like Graham is a really integral part of our offense ?
And now I'm beginning to appreciate just how important Joel Dreessen was last year to the Texans - he's having an outstanding season with the Broncos as their #1 TE.

deucetx
12-13-2012, 08:59 AM
I think some folks are so hung up on Dressen that they sell Graham short. His season has been rather good. For instance on PFF numbers compared to Dressen currently:

Graham:

Overall among TE #11
Run blocking #9
Pass blocking #10

Joel Dressen

Overall among TE #8
Run blocking #14
Pass blocking #1

Their receiving numbers are nearly identitical and neither is the first TE passing option for their team:

Graham:

25 receptions 243 yards 78.1 catch% 3 TD's 2 Drops

Dressen:

34 receptions 283 yards 72.3 catch % 5 TD's 3 Drops

So pretty similar other than receptions but of course the Broncs sling it out like there is no tomorrow. Have to admit I was surprised how effective Graham has been. Love O.D. but to be honest the guy can't block to save his life....or anyone running behind him lol.

thunderkyss
12-13-2012, 09:19 AM
With Graham out I thought we'd just plug Casey into Graham's position as the #2 TE and go with the new guy at FB, but here's Kubiak talking like Graham is a really integral part of our offense ?
And now I'm beginning to appreciate just how important Joel Dreessen was last year to the Texans - he's having an outstanding season with the Broncos as their #1 TE.

I think Kubiak had a good plan, bringing in an extra tackle. But that does limit our offense, the defense "knows" he isn't going to release into the pattern.

But I think Gardner simply failed. He couldn't handle the outside rush. Imagine that, a freak'n tackle can't handle the outside rush. & he was not affective in the run game... again, imagine that.

qqert
12-13-2012, 09:19 AM
kubes likes to run two tight end schemes/plays, and i guess that limited his play calling when graham was out.

still, it doesnt explain how poorly the offensive plays were planned.

running game was stuffed. and even then he still kept calling same plays.
throw it out wide to arian for a change, instead of running it up the middle!

thunderkyss
12-13-2012, 09:23 AM
kubes likes to run two tight end schemes/plays, and i guess that limited his play calling when graham was out.

still, it doesnt explain how poorly the offensive plays were planned.

running game was stuffed. and even then he still kept calling same plays.
throw it out wide to arian for a change, instead of running it up the middle!

I don't think we ran it up the middle as often as many are making it out to be. The offensive line was getting blown up, up the middle & our RB never had a chance to get outside.

I really doubt we had any runs "planned" to go between the guards.

DexmanC
12-13-2012, 09:24 AM
kubes likes to run two tight end schemes/plays, and i guess that limited his play calling when graham was out.

still, it doesnt explain how poorly the offensive plays were planned.

running game was stuffed. and even then he still kept calling same plays.
throw it out wide to arian for a change, instead of running it up the middle!

Reminds me of when Kubiak would stubbornly spend 3 downs trying to
run at Albert Haynesworth with Steve Slaton. Gotta love Kubes.

Tailgate
12-13-2012, 09:26 AM
I was worried about his injury all last week. Did anyone else notice Dilfer picked the Texans to win and for 2 days right up till kickoff kept saying it was because we love to use 2 TE sets and that is a major weakness for NE? I was like dude, Graham is a no go bro.

thunderkyss
12-13-2012, 09:39 AM
The Patriots have 5 TEs on their roster

Gronk
Hernandez
Hoomanawanui
Schiancoe
Fells

& a Full back on their roster.

We have 2 TEs & 2 FBs

But TEs are as important to our team as theirs.... I think they were number 2 in 2 TE sets.

They have 7 LBs & 4 DEs We've only got 6 LBs

I bring that up, because we both run hybrid 3-4s & their DEs are LBs Ninkovich & Scott played standing up for much of the game.

Why are our rosters not similar?

IDEXAN
12-13-2012, 09:55 AM
I was worried about his injury all last week. Did anyone else notice Dilfer picked the Texans to win and for 2 days right up till kickoff kept saying it was because we love to use 2 TE sets and that is a major weakness for NE? I was like dude, Graham is a no go bro.
But maybe Dilfer thought as I did that in Graham's absense the Texans could just plug-in Casey ?
But on decisions re the TE situation in the just past off season, I think we'd have been better off keeping Dreessen and releasing OD. I know that's cold because I like OD to, but while an excellent pass-catching TE, OD just can't block like Dreessen does.

Tailgate
12-13-2012, 10:00 AM
But maybe Dilfer thought as I did that in Graham's absense the Texans could just plug-in Casey ?
But on decisions re the TE situation in the just past off season, I think we'd have been better off keeping Dreessen and releasing OD. I know that's cold because I like OD to, but while an excellent pass-catching TE, OD just can't block like Dreessen does.

We let Dreessen go, Demeco go, and the right side of our O-line go, along with our FB 2 yrs ago. I know I know, I get it... I do. But its really no wonder what our major weaknesses are now.

IDEXAN
12-13-2012, 10:11 AM
We let Dreessen go, Demeco go, and the right side of our O-line go, along with our FB 2 yrs ago. I know I know, I get it... I do. But its really no wonder what our major weaknesses are now.
But in the case of keeping Dreessen over OD, we could probably have had a net savings in cap-space.

76Texan
12-13-2012, 10:27 AM
But in the case of keeping Dreessen over OD, we could probably have had a net savings in cap-space.

Nope!

Kubiak loves Dreessen, but we couldn't afford to match his new contract.
We might even have to offer him a better contract since he's going home to Colorado.

He received a $2.5M signing bonus and a base salary of $1M this year.

We just don't have that much in cap room and extra budget for another TE.

We gave OD a $3M signing bonus just last year when we re-upped him.
Why would we want to cut him and waste even more investment money up front?

If we cut OD., we still don't have anybody to replace him when Graham gets injured.

76Texan
12-13-2012, 10:32 AM
I think some folks are so hung up on Dressen that they sell Graham short. His season has been rather good. For instance on PFF numbers compared to Dressen currently:

Graham:

Overall among TE #11
Run blocking #9
Pass blocking #10

Joel Dressen

Overall among TE #8
Run blocking #14
Pass blocking #1

Their receiving numbers are nearly identitical and neither is the first TE passing option for their team:

Graham:

25 receptions 243 yards 78.1 catch% 3 TD's 2 Drops

Dressen:

34 receptions 283 yards 72.3 catch % 5 TD's 3 Drops

So pretty similar other than receptions but of course the Broncs sling it out like there is no tomorrow. Have to admit I was surprised how effective Graham has been. Love O.D. but to be honest the guy can't block to save his life....or anyone running behind him lol.

From what I observe, the most consistent blockers on our line are Myers and Graham; D. Brown is third.

O.D. is important in our scheme though.

He already has almost as many catches as last year (52 vs 54) and 622 yards (vs 677). He's already doubled his TD total to 6.

Everlong
12-13-2012, 10:34 AM
The Patriots have 5 TEs on their roster

Gronk
Hernandez
Hoomanawanui
Schiancoe
Fells


Schiancoe got released on Monday. They were really only running with 5 because of Gronk and AH missing time. But to your point you need that depth. Fells is nearly as good of a blocker as Gronk just not in the same zip code when it comes to receiving.

GP
12-13-2012, 10:57 AM
Nope!

Kubiak loves Dreessen, but we couldn't afford to match his new contract.
We might even have to offer him a better contract since he's going home to Colorado.

He received a $2.5M signing bonus and a base salary of $1M this year.

We just don't have that much in cap room and extra budget for another TE.

We gave OD a $3M signing bonus just last year when we re-upped him.
Why would we want to cut him and waste even more investment money up front?

If we cut OD., we still don't have anybody to replace him when Graham gets injured.

Solid post. There's just no way around the hard truths of NFL cap management.

I really didn't have faith in Graham, btw. Always figured he would be a pretender, a bit under qualified to handle the role here. I was very wrong. The guy is now an integral part of our offense.

This team's offense is just flat out better with two TEs (OD and GG) and Casey at that twiner spot. Period.

El Tejano
12-13-2012, 11:05 AM
It's a horrible excuse.

76Texan
12-13-2012, 11:22 AM
kubes likes to run two tight end schemes/plays, and i guess that limited his play calling when graham was out.

still, it doesnt explain how poorly the offensive plays were planned.

running game was stuffed. and even then he still kept calling same plays.
throw it out wide to arian for a change, instead of running it up the middle!

We had 39 passing plays and 26 running plays.
That's a very healthy pass/run ratio for a team like the Texans.

76Texan
12-13-2012, 11:23 AM
Schiancoe got released on Monday. They were really only running with 5 because of Gronk and AH missing time. But to your point you need that depth. Fells is nearly as good of a blocker as Gronk just not in the same zip code when it comes to receiving.

Schianco was listed in the game book as dressed and active.

I think he was released Tuesday???

Rey
12-13-2012, 12:54 PM
Schianco was listed in the game book as dressed and active.

I think he was released Tuesday???

If I'm not mistaken he was in with their second string o and dropped a pass...

76Texan
12-13-2012, 01:12 PM
If I'm not mistaken he was in with their second string o and dropped a pass...

Come to think of it, there's an easy way to check.

Football Outsider snap counts showed him with 12 offensive snaps..

Their Offense only had 8 plays after we pulled the starters (including 3 kneel downs), so he had to be in there much earlier.

And the INT by Keo was a pass thrown to Shianco.
Harris wrapped him up as he caught the ball, and it bounced off his hands for Keo to grab it.

Everlong
12-13-2012, 01:43 PM
Schianco was listed in the game book as dressed and active.

I think he was released Tuesday???

Yes my bad. I'm used to the day after being Monday and wrote the post on auto-pilot.

76Texan
12-13-2012, 02:01 PM
Yes my bad. I'm used to the day after being Monday and wrote the post on auto-pilot.

I figured that much.
Also, remember I said Graham is important to our scheme as he's our best blocking TE and he's also good at catching the ball and running route.

The Pats had adjusted to utilizing one main receiving TE (what with Hernandez being out, but now replacing Gronskowski.)

We have not been able to adjust to losing Graham.
We missed his blocking on the edges the most.
Watch our last resort extra OT Gardner got killed a few times, and you know we missed Graham sorely in the blocking department.

Everlong
12-13-2012, 03:11 PM
I figured that much.
Also, remember I said Graham is important to our scheme as he's our best blocking TE and he's also good at catching the ball and running route.

The Pats had adjusted to utilizing one main receiving TE (what with Hernandez being out, but now replacing Gronskowski.)

We have not been able to adjust to losing Graham.
We missed his blocking on the edges the most.
Watch our last resort extra OT Gardner got killed a few times, and you know we missed Graham sorely in the blocking department.

I wasn't disagreeing with you but commented on TE depth.

Although both TEs Gronk and AH play different positions and really aren't asked to do anything the other does. Gronk is a traditional TE who's equally good at blocking and receiving and can get vertical. AH is more of a WR\HB hybrid. They'll line him up anywhere. So the adjustment is quite different. Losing AH takes away a lot of flexibility to attack what a team struggles against the most. Losing Gronk takes away a lot physicality and teams don't have to worry about the TE off of play action. Both are different types of nightmare matchups.

76Texan
12-13-2012, 03:25 PM
I wasn't disagreeing with you but commented on TE depth.

Although both TEs Gronk and AH play different positions and really aren't asked to do anything the other does. Gronk is a traditional TE who's equally good at blocking and receiving and can get vertical. AH is more of a WR\HB hybrid. They'll line him up anywhere. So the adjustment is quite different. Losing AH takes away a lot of flexibility to attack what a team struggles against the most. Losing Gronk takes away a lot physicality and teams don't have to worry about the TE off of play action. Both are different types of nightmare matchups.
Oh I agree.

My main point is that Hernandez was out for a while, and the Pats made some adjustment.

Then when the Gronk went out, the Pats have the time to make adjusment for us.

Both teams lost a TE for this past game, the Pats had more time to adjust to it; that is all I was saying.

There are still plenty of offensive weapons; Graham meant more in blocking to the Texans than the Gronk to the Pats.

Everlong
12-13-2012, 05:03 PM
Yes I would agree on the blocking since Fells and Hoo are very capable.

Double Barrel
12-13-2012, 05:26 PM
I don't think we ran it up the middle as often as many are making it out to be. The offensive line was getting blown up, up the middle & our RB never had a chance to get outside.

I really doubt we had any runs "planned" to go between the guards.

You make it sound like the Texans were being...dominated. :winky:

thunderkyss
12-13-2012, 06:48 PM
You make it sound like the Texans were being...dominated. :winky:

Our offense was dominated.


I think it is important to differentiate. Like every one else, I was worried that our defense wouldn't be able to keep us in a game against the Pats. I might have said differently, but I was. We haven't been playing well defensively for a long time.

I saw enough to know our defense is good enough to get 3 or 4 stops. If we can limit the Patriots to 6 or 7 possessions through the entire game (eight at the most). Our chances of winning a rematch goes up exponentially.

Provided our offense shows up. I don't think anyone predicted our offense would get shut out in the first half.

76Texan
12-13-2012, 06:56 PM
Yes I would agree on the blocking since Fells and Hoo are very capable.

That was the key thing I talked about.
The Pats don't miss that part of the game as much as we do.
They have plenty of weapons to throw around to make up the difference.
Scheme-wise, and time-line wise, if there was a set back, it doesn't give the Texans any edge, if anything, a negative point since our backend was getting thin while yours was on the up.

But you roll with what you have.

All I'm saying is that our safeties (none injured) have been playing under their norm.

Norg
12-13-2012, 07:00 PM
No excuses just because GG is not there does that mean we can only score 7 points on the pats D ...????

we wet our selfs last week on O