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EllisUnit
12-12-2012, 07:45 PM
That our secondary has given up 24 passing TD's, and only 6 teams have given up more ???? I didnt realize it was THAT bad, problably Rogers and Brady's doing making it seem that bad minus Rogers 6 and bradys 4 it is only 14. SO all in all our secondary is good against mediocra QBs and one of the worst in the league against Elite guys. ***I also blame some of this on our lack of pass ru*****************

Just thought it was interesting.

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2012/12/texans-have-much-to-fix-in-short-order-before-colts-arrive/#8862-3

TheDream34
12-12-2012, 08:24 PM
Look I am no football expert, but can anyone tell me why the secondary has been so bad this year. I mean its not like we don't have talent back there. Joseph and Jackson are solid starters and Manning/Quin are a solid safety tandem. Is it injuries or lack of pass rush because I just don't think they're that bad.

EllisUnit
12-12-2012, 08:25 PM
Look I am no football expert, but can anyone tell me why the secondary has been so bad this year. I mean its not like we don't have talent back there. Joseph and Jackson are solid starters and Manning/Quin are a solid safety tandem. Is it injuries or lack of pass rush because I just don't think they're that bad.

I would have to say lack of pass rush, look at last season when we were killing QBs compared to this season.

gtexan02
12-12-2012, 08:31 PM
Brady Henne and Stafford are probably at least half of that. It's a recent problem

Texan_Bill
12-12-2012, 08:35 PM
That our secondary has given up 24 passing TD's, and only 6 teams have given up more ???? I didnt realize it was THAT bad, problably Rogers and Brady's doing making it seem that bad minus Rogers 6 and bradys 4 it is only 14. SO all in all our secondary is good against mediocra QBs and one of the worst in the league against Elite guys. ***I also blame some of this on our lack of pass ru*****************

Just thought it was interesting.

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2012/12/texans-have-much-to-fix-in-short-order-before-colts-arrive/#8862-3

Look I am no football expert, but can anyone tell me why the secondary has been so bad this year. I mean its not like we don't have talent back there. Joseph and Jackson are solid starters and Manning/Quin are a solid safety tandem. Is it injuries or lack of pass rush because I just don't think they're that bad.

I would have to say lack of pass rush, look at last season when we were killing QBs compared to this season.

At EU: Our secondary has sucked this year aka Groin / Hammy injury to Jonathon Joseph. Our run "D" and well pass "D" has suffered with the loss of Cushing, which lends itself to the secondary..

At the end of the day, it's not really that interesting.

We're short-handed on defense.. "Son of Bum" needs to figure it out with the personnel available...

That's the crux of this season...

Goatcheese
12-12-2012, 08:35 PM
They're not getting consistent pressure on the QB with a four man rush, so they have to blitz to get to him. That leaves them in man coverage and if the blitz still gives the QB time to read the defense, he's going to find an open man. Better QB's like Brady and Rodgers will find that opening faster, but eventually if you don't get there, man coverage is going be exploited.

EllisUnit
12-12-2012, 08:36 PM
At EU: Our secondary has sucked this year aka Groin / Hammy injury to Jonathon Joseph. Our run "D" and well pass "D" has suffered with the loss of Cushing, which lends itself to the secondary..

At the end of the day, it's not really that interesting.

We're short-handed on defense.. "Son of Bum" needs to figure it out with the personnel available...

That's the crux of this season...

Look at the rank of our D, thats why i find it interesting.

aussie_texan
12-12-2012, 09:53 PM
we have also given up minimal in rushing TDs. im not sure of the numbers but it must be pretty low. it balances out. points against we are in the bottom 5 so i dont think its a massive problem. however, that being said i think we need to bring in a couple of DBs in the offseason to improve the position.

DocBar
12-12-2012, 10:09 PM
Our secondary has sucked due to absolutely no edge pass rush. Handle JJ and Smith and ya got it made. Barwin and Reed/ Merci just ain't getting it done. Phillips being slow to change, if at all, has something to do with it.

I can't put even most of the blame on the secondary. The front seven haven't been getting it done all year. 1 of them has but the other 6 simply hasn't, on a consistent basis.

wolf123
12-12-2012, 10:39 PM
Our secondary has sucked due to absolutely no edge pass rush. Handle JJ and Smith and ya got it made. Barwin and Reed/ Merci just ain't getting it done. Phillips being slow to change, if at all, has something to do with it.

I can't put even most of the blame on the secondary. The front seven haven't been getting it done all year. 1 of them has but the other 6 simply hasn't, on a consistent basis.

Merci has more sacks then Barwin and Reed combined and is the only factor we've had all season coming off the edge.

beerlover
12-12-2012, 10:41 PM
Merci has more sacks then Barwin and Reed combined and is the only factor we've had all season coming off the edge.

damn good thing Texans drafted him then.

DocBar
12-12-2012, 11:02 PM
Merci has more sacks then Barwin and Reed combined and is the only factor we've had all season coming off the edge.

And our star interior DLOman has more than all of them combined, by a comfortable margin. Your argument is weak, at best.

wolf123
12-13-2012, 12:24 AM
And our star interior DLOman has more than all of them combined, by a comfortable margin. Your argument is weak, at best.

What argument? Your complaining about a part time pass rusher who has started 2 games and has more sacks then all the other OLB combined?:overreact:

The pass rush has been terrible on the outside all season. Merci is the lone bright spot at OLB this year.

DocBar
12-13-2012, 12:52 AM
What argument? Your complaining about a part time pass rusher who has started 2 games and has more sacks then all the other OLB combined?:overreact:

The pass rush has been terrible on the outside all season. Merci is the lone bright spot at OLB this year.I'm complaining about all 3 of them and Merci has certainly notbeen a bright a spot. You're wearing Texans beer goggles if you think so.

wolf123
12-13-2012, 01:14 AM
I'm complaining about all 3 of them and Merci has certainly notbeen a bright a spot. You're wearing Texans beer goggles if you think so.

He's 2nd among rookies in sacks and 3rd in forced fumbles. And he's barely been on the field other then the last 3 games. You want to ***** about Barwin or Reed thats fine. They have done nothing and play a ton more snaps.

DX-TEX
12-13-2012, 01:27 AM
I would have to say lack of pass rush, look at last season when we were killing QBs compared to this season.

Nail meet head. If you are going to play man coverage 99.8% of the time you BETTER have a damn good pass rush.

thunderkyss
12-13-2012, 05:35 AM
They're not getting consistent pressure on the QB with a four man rush, so they have to blitz to get to him. That leaves them in man coverage and if the blitz still gives the QB time to read the defense, he's going to find an open man. Better QB's like Brady and Rodgers will find that opening faster, but eventually if you don't get there, man coverage is going be exploited.

I hear this a lot. I remember a time when we were so upset that we were never in man coverage, that we used too much zone. Now, being in man coverage is a bad thing... I guess because the announcer say so much on TV, people just start repeating it.

Prior to the start of the season we questioned if our defense would improve considering Wade's sophomore curse. Some opined, that our defense might actually improve but suffer in the stat column, because we're playing better offenses..... New England, Detroit, & Denver are top 3 of the top 4 offenses in the league.

So some of it was to be expected.

76 threw some numbers out there showing our Pass Rush isn't as bad as we think. I find that hard to believe, my eyes, & my gut tell me different. But, these QBs are doing a better job of getting the ball out. These receivers are doing a better job of getting open early & I don't know that the teams playing zone are doing any better against them (3 of the top 4 offenses).

But I think the numbers & the perception is starting to snowball. The way our safeties played Monday night was more akin to the 2010 ole' defense than last year's defense. They didn't appear to help out on any pass play.

deucetx
12-13-2012, 09:13 AM
Few factors probably. For one, Wade's system is overly dependant on the pass rush. If you aren't getting there then there are going to be some issues. Our pass rush has lacked consistency more than anything. We may get some hurries but since the pressure is mainly coming from direction it isn't difficult for the QB to avoid it. After all, if Watt is coming at you but no one else is you could slide in the pocket, step up or roll to the other side. Need more from others and that is mainly speaking of edge rushers who have the speed to make a difference.

Currently Texans are:

Tied for 4th in sacks, 8th in QB Hits and 16th in Hurries.

Other issue is health of Joseph. Hamstrings linger and his has been doing so for some time. He was capable of completely locking one side of the field last year. Not so much this season. It made certain blitz packages more available. McCain dropped considerably. He has been basically awful this year. Put it like this...McCain is allowing a 95.6 rating against him. Last year? 47.2...so yeah HUGE drop on him.

Add those factors and you have issues especially when they spread us out. It's not just about running man. It's how we play it. We're in man and giving these cushions that shouldn't be. No press. Even see at times we get in their face and never touch them allowing them off the line with ease expecting our DB to run step for step with a receiver. Only the best DB's can do this from such a position.

Seeing our pass rush is inconsistent it would be better to have a mixture of man and zone and mingle it up. Disguise the defense better because elite QB's are that for a reason. They can read defenses rather well. Heck, that may go for vets too as Henne was reading, adjusting and making audibles against us because even he could read the defense.

HJam72
12-13-2012, 09:31 AM
Nail meet head. If you are going to play man coverage 99.8% of the time you BETTER have a damn good pass rush.

LOL, I thought you called him a meat-head for some unexplained reason.

HJam72
12-13-2012, 09:34 AM
I may have beat this to death already, but I really feel like, in the Pats game at least, TEs and guys outta the backfield were getting wide open very quickly because safeties and extra DBs were just mentally STUCK on the tailback.

It's just one game. I don't remember seeing that before.

I do know J.Jo.' s health, like y'all said, has been a part of the problem overall.

Seņor Stan
12-13-2012, 10:20 AM
Few factors probably. For one, Wade's system is overly dependant on the pass rush. If you aren't getting there then there are going to be some issues. Our pass rush has lacked consistency more than anything. We may get some hurries but since the pressure is mainly coming from direction it isn't difficult for the QB to avoid it. After all, if Watt is coming at you but no one else is you could slide in the pocket, step up or roll to the other side. Need more from others and that is mainly speaking of edge rushers who have the speed to make a difference.

Currently Texans are:

27th in sacks, 25th in QB Hits and 11th in Hurries.



Where are you getting your stats?

The Texans are tied for 4th most sacks in the NFL...

Goatcheese
12-13-2012, 02:23 PM
I hear this a lot. I remember a time when we were so upset that we were never in man coverage, that we used too much zone. Now, being in man coverage is a bad thing... I guess because the announcer say so much on TV, people just start repeating it.


In no way did I state or imply that man coverage is bad. It insures that every receiver on the field is accounted for, frees up people to blitz and limits the number of defenders standing by themselves in a giant patch of open field.

The down side is that man eventually breaks down somewhere if you don't get to the QB and there's not another guy waiting in the next zone to pick him up.

To be effective, man coverage needs to get after the QB consistently or it's only a matter of time before it gets picked apart.

Vinny
12-13-2012, 02:24 PM
That our secondary has given up 24 passing TD's, and only 6 teams have given up more ???? I didnt realize it was THAT bad, problably Rogers and Brady's doing making it seem that bad minus Rogers 6 and bradys 4 it is only 14. SO all in all our secondary is good against mediocra QBs and one of the worst in the league against Elite guys. ***I also blame some of this on our lack of pass ru*****************

Just thought it was interesting.

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2012/12/texans-have-much-to-fix-in-short-order-before-colts-arrive/#8862-3

its a lack of an edge rush (Both Tackes get after the QB) plus crappy man coverage guys in a scheme that plays mostly man cover.

thunderkyss
12-13-2012, 04:25 PM
In no way did I state or imply that man coverage is bad.

Point taken. However, I never said you, I said I remember when... & if you look around this board, you can see people (again not necessarily you) parroting the "too much man" talking point.

It insures that every receiver on the field is accounted for, frees up people to blitz and limits the number of defenders standing by themselves in a giant patch of open field.

The down side is that man eventually breaks down somewhere if you don't get to the QB and there's not another guy waiting in the next zone to pick him up.

Exactly, eventually being the key word. However, our problem over the last few weeks is that eventually has been practically as soon as the ball is snapped. That shouldn't happen.

To be effective, man coverage needs to get after the QB consistently or it's only a matter of time before it gets picked apart.

Very good point. Again, the words "it's only a matter of time" & our defense over the last few weeks has been "all the time"

It's not that we are playing man that is the problem, or even that we're playing elite QBs. Our problem is that we're playing poor man coverage against elite QBs.

Even Henne was able to have a career day against us because their receivers were wide open from the snap. If not his first read then without exception his second read.

We've been blaming our pass rush (myself included) but the real problem is that we're playing like it's 2010 all over again. Not only are they wide open, but their getting yac like it's going out of style.

Now I still have faith that Jjo will get back to pro-bowl form, he'll let the QB & receiver think they're open then make up the space & take one to the house.

I've got faith that KJax can blanket a man for 3 seconds... he had some bone headed plays recently, but we've seen him play well at a high level for 60 minutes.

I've seen enough from Harris to make me believe he can also cover for 3 seconds.

Another problem is that our excellent safeties aren't playing excellent. Even in passing situations, Glover is cheating up to the line, Demps is standing flat footed 8 yards from the LOS, & I can't even see Manning in any of our plays. They need to use their heads & get deep. Keep the play in front of them, especially against the elite QBs that can drop the ball in a bucket from 50 yards out.

Again, I think it's fixable. So I'm looking forward to our secondary getting better over the next 5 weeks.

deucetx
12-13-2012, 04:36 PM
Where are you getting your stats?

The Texans are tied for 4th most sacks in the NFL...

Nope you're right. I have them all on a spreadsheet and it was sorted backwards (least to greatest). So they are higher in sacks and hits but lower in hurries. Edited post. And for the heck of it took Watt's numbers. All are rounded up instead of the .5 stuff.

Watt is responsible for

43% of the sacks
42% of the QB hits
20% of the hurries

To say he has been the workhorse would be the understatement

DX-TEX
12-13-2012, 05:08 PM
Nope you're right. I have them all on a spreadsheet and it was sorted backwards (least to greatest). So they are higher in sacks and hits but lower in hurries. Edited post. And for the heck of it took Watt's numbers. All are rounded up instead of the .5 stuff.

Watt is responsible for

43% of the sacks
42% of the QB hits
20% of the hurries

To say he has been the workhorse would be the understatement

Print this off and post it in Barwins locker. the hipster act has to go.

badboy
12-13-2012, 05:30 PM
McCain takes a step back productivily. Cushing out. Bradie James takes more time than we hoped to acclimate then goes out with injury. Joseph's continuing groin injury, Quin being moved to a sort of LB some plays, Barwin playing for a lesser contract (only thing that explains it). Cody in and out with rib and ongoing back injuries and Mitchell not being much of a back up. B.Harris looking in his second year like KJ in his second. Other nagging injuries.

We are not as deep as some teams, but let's be honest how many of you actually thought we'd beat GB and PATS before game one. I had them as probable Ls. What frustrates me is how we lost to them. I had them beating Colts twice and maybe a win at Minnesota. If in TC, we were guaranteed we be 11-2, few would have grumbled. We know where we need to get better. Some of those will. Some we will draft. Some of our current roster will not be here. Not much different that 2011.

amazing80
12-13-2012, 06:19 PM
This IMO is proof that our entire system relies too much on the pass rush, last season our secondary was masked by a GREAT front 7, one that consistently pressured the QB and got sacks, this secondary is being left open to dry and they are flailing in the wind. Barwin is playing himself off this team and Reed was not doing much better. With out Watt I would hate to think how terrible we would be on defense and I bet we would have a much worse record. Wade is NOTORIOUS for this, have a great season followed by trash, it has always been his rep, hopefully he breaks the mold and figures out how to fix this defense or we could lose quickly in the playoffs.

thunderkyss
12-13-2012, 06:38 PM
This IMO is proof that our entire system relies too much on the pass rush, last season our secondary was masked by a GREAT front 7, one that consistently pressured the QB and got sacks, this secondary is being left open to dry and they are flailing in the wind. Barwin is playing himself off this team and Reed was not doing much better. With out Watt I would hate to think how terrible we would be on defense and I bet we would have a much worse record. Wade is NOTORIOUS for this, have a great season followed by trash, it has always been his rep, hopefully he breaks the mold and figures out how to fix this defense or we could lose quickly in the playoffs.

Maybe. I'd have to go back to last year (I'm not able to) & see how those sacks came about. I do know I was giddy for finally seeing Texans getting coverage sacks, meaning the back end held up their end (4-5 seconds) providing extra time for our guys finish.

But there was a long time between the time Mario got hurt & someone else took the lead in sacks for the team. If I remember right, Mario had 5 sacks & Antonio had 4.... But it was 6 or 8 weeks before someone else had 6.

Did Watt, Brooks, & Connor get that much better over that 7 week period, or did our back end get better to allow that extra time.... or was it a mixture of both?

Connor's disappearance & what 76Texan opened my eyes to makes me believe our pass rush was more dependent on our secondary than the other way around.

I think our back end is going to get better. I've mentioned why in another thread. I've got absolutely no reason to believe our pass rush is going to get better. Where's it going to come from? Brooks wasn't sh!t before he got hurt. We'll start seeing more sacks & unless Mercilus is racking them up I think that would be strong evidence that our pass rush is dependent on our secondary.