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View Full Version : Pulling the starters is borderline unforgivable...


gtexan02
12-11-2012, 06:44 AM
I know the logic behind it:
Short week. Important divisional game next week. History of injuries. Down by 3+ scores.

But you know what? I don't care. There are 16 games a year in the regular season. And there are only a few epic primetime battles. This happened to be one of those. We basically called the game early in the 4th when we went 4 straight runs and then punted. When we slowed down our huddles presnap. We definitely called it when we pulled our starters and started playing backups.

I know picking up 3 or 4 scores in 1 quarter is next to impossible, but it sure sends a horrible message to our players, our fans, and the nation. Quotes from AJ after the game did not make him sound happy.

Then there's the fact that we will likely face New England in the playoffs if we plan on advancing past the first round. Our starters will have zero confidence because we pulled them at the lowest point. At least give them the opportunity to put up some garbage points to give them some level of confidence. At least give them the time to get additional reps against arguably our greatest competition/threat.

I'm embarrassed to go into work today. I have been talking about this game to all my friends and coworkers here in Boston for the entire year. And we couldn't even finish the game? Why even play the last quarter. Why didn't they just walk off the field. What we did was basically no different.

I can take getting beat. I can take getting beat badly. But tonight I saw something I haven't seen in 2+ years, and that's the loser's attitude. It's taken years to build that winner's culture in Houston and Kubiak risks throwing it all away in the name of self-preservation. Awful.

HJam72
12-11-2012, 06:48 AM
The way he called the game, he should've just took the starters out well before half-time.

Surreal McCoy
12-11-2012, 06:58 AM
The way he called the game, he should've just took the starters out well before half-time.

Doesn't matter what you call if the players don't execute.

TimeKiller
12-11-2012, 07:02 AM
Doesn't matter what you call if the players don't execute.

Yes it does. If it's 3rd down and 8 and you call a 7 yard crossing route?


Pulling the starters is hardly unforgivable. Putting in the backups and calling QB SNEAKS?!?!?! Ridiculous. Throw the damn ball and I'll star myself out ****** *********** * * * ****** * ***** * ******** *********** * ** **** ***** ******* ** **** **** ***** ****!!


They have a monkey on their back. It's not winning the big games. Let's even nickname it "Gorilla Monsoon" because when it rains, it pours!

Surreal McCoy
12-11-2012, 07:06 AM
Yes it does. If it's 3rd down and 8 and you call a 7 yard crossing route?


Ahh good. I'm with you now, sure the receiver ran the route exactly as planned. Shame on Gary! What a numbskull!

Maddict5
12-11-2012, 07:21 AM
would you have felt better if we had lost by 20ish pts and we had lost any of schaub, aj, od, db, myers, JJ or j-joe etc??

would we have seen you start a thread commending kubiak for not quitting eventhough the game was over? :rolleyes:

gtexan02
12-11-2012, 07:25 AM
would you have felt better if we had lost by 20ish pts and we had lost any of schaub, aj, od, db, myers, JJ or j-joe etc??

would we have seen you start a thread commending kubiak for not quitting eventhough the game was over? :rolleyes:

Straw man argument. Of course you don't want to see players get hurt, but they are paid to play the game. No one got hurt. The conditions weren't dangerous. Lord knows the offense wasn't tired.

Why let them play in the 3rd quarter? Why play them at all if we're already in the playoffs and could wrap up home field advantage with wins over Indy and Minnesota. How far do you want to take it?

We were still int he game in the 4th quarter. Not likely, but mathematically possible.

Like I said in the first sentence. I get the decision. I just think it was a garbage one. Tells me a lot about Kubiak.

Rey
12-11-2012, 07:27 AM
Yes it does. If it's 3rd down and 8 and you call a 7 yard crossing route?


Pulling the starters is hardly unforgivable. Putting in the backups and calling QB SNEAKS?!?!?! Ridiculous. Throw the damn ball and I'll star myself out ****** *********** * * * ****** * ***** * ******** *********** * ** **** ***** ******* ** **** **** ***** ****!!


They have a monkey on their back. It's not winning the big games. Let's even nickname it "Gorilla Monsoon" because when it rains, it pours!

To be fair, there were other routes being run...that's the one schaub chose and then Andre didn't break a tackle...

But I can't complain about backups...they produced as many points as the starters...

ObsiWan
12-11-2012, 07:28 AM
Yes it does. If it's 3rd down and 8 and you call a 7 yard crossing route?


Pulling the starters is hardly unforgivable. Putting in the backups and calling QB SNEAKS?!?!?! Ridiculous. Throw the damn ball and I'll star myself out ****** *********** * * * ****** * ***** * ******** *********** * ** **** ***** ******* ** **** **** ***** ****!!


They have a monkey on their back. It's not winning the big games. Let's even nickname it "Gorilla Monsoon" because when it rains, it pours!

The play calls for a crossing route to get the first down. It should be up to the receiver run the route properly to get the necessary yardage.

ObsiWan
12-11-2012, 07:32 AM
Straw man argument. Of course you don't want to see players get hurt, but they are paid to play the game. No one got hurt. The conditions weren't dangerous. Lord knows the offense wasn't tired.

Why let them play in the 3rd quarter? Why play them at all if we're already in the playoffs and could wrap up home field advantage with wins over Indy and Minnesota. How far do you want to take it?

We were still int he game in the 4th quarter. Not likely, but mathematically possible.

Like I said in the first sentence. I get the decision. I just think it was a garbage one. Tells me a lot about Kubiak.

Tells me he had no faith in his starters. When the first string is flat out embarrassing itself - no argument there, right? - what you do is yank them and put in the second string guys who want to play. Probably should have done it sooner.

So should Wade.

Brady scores first 3 times they get the ball???

EllisUnit
12-11-2012, 07:33 AM
Doesn't matter what you call if the players don't execute.

Did you watch the same game I did ?

Maddict5
12-11-2012, 07:33 AM
Straw man argument. Of course you don't want to see players get hurt, but they are paid to play the game. No one got hurt. The conditions weren't dangerous. Lord knows the offense wasn't tired.

Like I said in the first sentence. I get the decision. I just think it was a garbage one. Tells me a lot about Kubiak

he's smart? he'd rather regroup after an ass whipping with as healthy a squad as possible instead of being that 'rah rah' guy that keeps everyone in to get a few meaningless pts when the pats have let up? the only way to get revenge is to play them again and beat them. only more bad stuff can happen at the stage of the game when he pulled the starters

and even you can see why it makes sense so i dont get why you feel you have to start a thread about it. yes they're paid to play but they're also paid to win. scoring a couple garbage pts in a blowout does nothing to aid that. its big picture time at that stage

EllisUnit
12-11-2012, 07:45 AM
he's smart? he'd rather regroup after an ass whipping with as healthy a squad as possible instead of being that 'rah rah' guy that keeps everyone in to get a few meaningless pts when the pats have let up? the only way to get revenge is to play them again and beat them. only more bad stuff can happen at the stage of the game when he pulled the starters

and even you can see why it makes sense so i dont get why you feel you have to start a thread about it. yes they're paid to play but they're also paid to win. scoring a couple garbage pts in a blowout does nothing to aid that. its big picture time at that stage

We pulled our starters before the Patriots, that is just sad.

Hardcore Texan
12-11-2012, 07:49 AM
I was calling for TJ to replace Schaub early in the 2nd quarter. Schaub had a very poor performance.

Maddict5
12-11-2012, 07:49 AM
We pulled our starters before the Patriots, that is just sad.

the pats are kinda known for leaving players in during blowouts

EllisUnit
12-11-2012, 07:56 AM
the pats are kinda known for leaving players in during blowouts

Answer me this. Down 28 points fighting for HFA do u think the patriots, broncos, greenbay or any champion caliber teams pull their starters ? Or do they adjust and spread the field and "try" to make a come back.

That's the different between champions and want to be champions.

Surreal McCoy
12-11-2012, 07:56 AM
Did you watch the same game I did ?

You saw the players executing? Especially on offense? Hmm. You could be on to something. Gary must've told them not to block either of the NE DTs, or to drop catchable balls on crucial downs, and for us to get drive killing penalties, or for Schaub to make wrong reads...

Honoring Earl 34
12-11-2012, 08:03 AM
Answer me this. Down 28 points fighting for HFA do u think the patriots, broncos, greenbay or any champion caliber teams pull their starters ? Or do they adjust and spread the field and "try" to make a come back.

That's the different between champions and want to be champions.

Championship teams don't get down by that much in the first place . This is a trend with the Texans when the lights are on .

Oh ... you are not a championship caliber team until you win said championship . The hump is not talent , it's being strong willed .

2012Champs
12-11-2012, 08:05 AM
Yes it does. If it's 3rd down and 8 and you call a 7 yard crossing route?


Pulling the starters is hardly unforgivable. Putting in the backups and calling QB SNEAKS?!?!?! Ridiculous. Throw the damn ball and I'll star myself out ****** *********** * * * ****** * ***** * ******** *********** * ** **** ***** ******* ** **** **** ***** ****!!


They have a monkey on their back. It's not winning the big games. Let's even nickname it "Gorilla Monsoon" because when it rains, it pours!


I don't think the 7 yard cross was the first option

EllisUnit
12-11-2012, 08:06 AM
You saw the players executing? Especially on offense? Hmm. You could be on to something. Gary must've told them not to block either of the NE DTs, or to drop catchable balls on crucial downs, and for us to get drive killing penalties, or for Schaub to make wrong reads...

Or it could of been AJ lining up at FB to "confuse" the defense and then not attacking 1 on 1 coverage all night. Maybe the 3 consecutive running plays then a punt when down 21. Then some 7 yard slants when we need 10 yards.

If u watched the jacksonville game the whole 4th quarter we went 4 wide and shreaded them, same thing in Detroit. Here we went 4 wide for 1 series and got a TD and then the Offense went back into their 2 WR 1 FB and foster shell. It was a terrible called game we didn't lose purely to bad execution.

IDEXAN
12-11-2012, 08:08 AM
Kubiak made the right call here, so forget about the old college try and all of that about using all of your timeouts in the last 40 seconds of the game when you are down by multiple TDs, etc. The season is not over but last nights game was over well before we pulled our starters, chances are better than not that we see the Pats again this season but in the playoffs: "Live to fight another day".

2012Champs
12-11-2012, 08:08 AM
Foster's game = meh

Schaub's game = not good


Oline? Yeah it's a problem

2012Champs
12-11-2012, 08:10 AM
Or it could of been AJ lining up at FB to "confuse" the defense and then not attacking 1 on 1 coverage all night. Maybe the 3 consecutive running plays then a punt when down 21. Then some 7 yard slants when we need 10 yards.

If u watched the jacksonville game the whole 4th quarter we went 4 wide and shreaded them, same thing in Detroit. Here we went 4 wide for 1 series and got a TD and then the Offense went back into their 2 WR 1 FB and foster shell. It was a terrible called game we didn't lose purely to bad execution.



Schaub didn't run a 7 yard slant. It's AJ's job to get the distance

AMartin56
12-11-2012, 08:20 AM
I actually agree with a lot of what was in the original post. I'm just sooooo tired of the old guard at this point. Brady this....Peyton that from the national media. And Kubiak just prolongs that junk with his limp performances in primetime...

Marcus
12-11-2012, 08:52 AM
That original post was nothing but a whiny little vent from someone who "understands the logic and reasoning behind it", but wants to create a thread to disagree with it anyway????

Put the pacifier back in and STFU.

HJam72
12-11-2012, 09:01 AM
To be fair, there were other routes being run...that's the one schaub chose and then Andre didn't break a tackle...

But I can't complain about backups...they produced as many points as the starters...

He can't do that anymore. Apparently, going by some of his other recent games, he has regained his speed, etc., but I have not seen him run over anybody in like 3 years. I don't believe he has that anymore. My point is don't throw him the ball and expect him to do things he can no longer do. Course, he was probly the only one open and that, of course, is because he wasn't past the first down marker.

2012Champs
12-11-2012, 09:03 AM
That original post was nothing but a whiny little vent from someone who "understands the logic and reasoning behind it", but wants to create a thread to disagree with it anyway????

Put the pacifier back in and STFU.




I approve this message

GP
12-11-2012, 09:07 AM
I have ZERO problem with us pulling starters.

It was the ONLY smart thing Kubiak did, actually.

I don't want our starters getting I.R.'d in a blowout loss. No way, Jose.

HJam72
12-11-2012, 09:10 AM
I have ZERO problem with us pulling starters.

It was the ONLY smart thing Kubiak did, actually.

I don't want our starters getting I.R.'d in a blowout loss. No way, Jose.

I don't know; it was pretty clever when he had Foster running right into their NT with AJ as his fullback. :toropalm: :choke:

Jackie Chiles
12-11-2012, 09:20 AM
Regardless of potential injuries the guys just plain deserved to get benched. Maybe it will light a fire under some of them maybe it won't but I think Gary was as sick of watching them play as most of us were. Pick up the play in these big games or get a little embarrassed and show off your pouty face on the bench.

steelbtexan
12-11-2012, 09:22 AM
Didn't Gary say Schaub was his QB and he would play the whole game regardless of the score after the Jags game last yr? Guess he changed his mind.

klockWork
12-11-2012, 09:30 AM
The game was over on our opening drive in the second half when we try to establish a running game on the first two plays that put our offense on a 3rd long. I mean, when was the last time in the history of football have a team ever came back from 21 down with the help of their running game?
Did our running game help us came back against the Jax game or Lions? Did Buffalo running game help them came back against the Oilers?
Even if our running game was producing yards there's no way we should be running on our first two plays on that drive down 21.

2012Champs
12-11-2012, 09:33 AM
Didn't Gary say Schaub was his QB and he would play the whole game regardless of the score after the Jags game last yr? Guess he changed his mind.




after the jags game?

EllisUnit
12-11-2012, 09:55 AM
Schaub didn't run a 7 yard slant. It's AJ's job to get the distance

They practice these plays in practice, the distance is based on the play call. They don't just say he run out however far u want and then do a slant. Its a timed play.

Porky
12-11-2012, 10:01 AM
I have ZERO problem with us pulling starters.

It was the ONLY smart thing Kubiak did, actually.

I don't want our starters getting I.R.'d in a blowout loss. No way, Jose.

Agreed. Live to fight another day. Kind of a petulant and whiny rant that seemed to have more of a selfish purpose because the OP didn't want to be embarrassed in front of his colleagues. I bet he would be the first one on here excoriating Kubiak if AJ blew out his knee. :gun:

gtexan02
12-11-2012, 10:19 AM
That original post was nothing but a whiny little vent from someone who "understands the logic and reasoning behind it", but wants to create a thread to disagree with it anyway????

Put the pacifier back in and STFU.

:lol: The irony of you posting a whiny little rant at my original post isn't lost.
Do me a favor and take your own advice if you don't have anything even remotely related to the topic to add.

Agreed. Live to fight another day. Kind of a petulant and whiny rant that seemed to have more of a selfish purpose because the OP didn't want to be embarrassed in front of his colleagues. I bet he would be the first one on here excoriating Kubiak if AJ blew out his knee. :gun:

That's a whole lot of speculation with pretty much zero basis. My "rant" has only minimal amount to do with my colleagues. I'm not on the team, nor do I coach the team, nor do I have any inkling of control over the performance we see. So my embarrassment pales in comparison to what the players and coaches should be feeling. My problem comes from the fact that in arguably one of the most highly anticipated games of the season, we couldn't even last until the closing bell. That's pathetic.

My philosophy doesn't flip flop. I won't complain if Kubiak rests his guy once the game is clearly in hand (don't see the reason to have Foster running it 10 times in the last 2 minutes of a 20+ point blowout win). But if we're losing, especially in a nationally televised game in what will be a very important litmus test for our playoff feasibility and we give up after only 75% of the game has been played, that's embarrassing. That's awful.

You play until the final bell. The injury excuse isn't valid. Conditions were good, players were fine, they weren't tired, etc. You play to win the game. That's all. I could just as easily ask "What's the point of playing your starters in the final 2 games when you're 4-10?" After all, they could get hurt. You might hurt your draft position. Etc. But throwing in towel is not the way you create a winner. There's a reason we crumple when the expectations are highest.

Schaub, Kubiak, and co had a chance to go into desperation offense mode. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference in this game, but if we're down 2 TDs and there's only 5 minutes left in the AFC championship, I bet he's going to wish we had practiced our spread offense a little more. Maybe the reason our team is bad when there's a lot on the line is because we don't have enough experience in those situations. We had a chance to gain some, and instead they chose to wave the "liberty" white flag.

gtexan02
12-11-2012, 10:20 AM
Oh and by the way, you can bet our team leaders agree with me

Players stopped short of calling it a white flag, but receiver Andre Johnson and left tackle Duane Brown didn’t love it. They shouldn’t have. It sends a team a bad message to give up at that point. At least go down slinging it.

“I have no control over that,” Johnson said.

“I just line up and do my job,” Brown said.
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/44713/texans-get-a-lesson-in-what-it-takes

2012Champs
12-11-2012, 10:26 AM
They practice these plays in practice, the distance is based on the play call. They don't just say he run out however far u want and then do a slant. Its a timed play.



They practice plays in practice? Thanks for the breaking news


How do you know that AJ wasnt supposed to run 8 yards before the break? Or maybe 9? You know that Gary called for him to break when he did? AJ wasnt the first option either I dont think

GP
12-11-2012, 10:29 AM
They practice these plays in practice, the distance is based on the play call. They don't just say he run out however far u want and then do a slant. Its a timed play.

Exactly.

AJ ran the right route, you just hope he gets enough separation to get the extra yardage. He normally does, but he didn't. Walter had a 4th down catch knocked to of his hands by the CB's knees (and the CB wasn't trying, it just happened that way).

Watt knocked a fumble into the EZ and the Pats recover for a TD.

KJ couldn't fall on the ball.

Kubiak waited until the 2nd half to play Tate.

We ran AT Wilfork, not away from him.

It was a waste of everybody's time all the way around. It looked like Gary didn't even really come up with an intelligent game plan for this game. He's in that mode of thinking that IF our guys play their hearts out, nobody can stop us even if they know what play is coming at them. He still hasn't learned.

He'll probably pull a Belichick and get ran out of Houston in 4 or 5 years, then go dark and be a sadistic HC for the Colts and win 3 Super Bowls with them. That's how it goes. Guys that don't learn...when they DO learn, they go somewhere else and Shazaam! all of a sudden the light bulb goes on: "Gee, you mean I can exploit a defense COMPLETELY and run up 52 points on them? Regularly???? Wow....cool!"

Wolf
12-11-2012, 10:34 AM
Overreaction thread no.345638

You pull the starters and get ready for next game. No need for anyone to get hurt at that time

See ya in Jan.

GP
12-11-2012, 10:37 AM
I hope the players are mad. They deserve to be manipulated into playing angry this next game.

While I am not happy with the game plan by both our coaches, the players are the ones playing the game. They're the ones not falling on a loose ball and then giving up a TD after that. They're the ones not knowing where to line up. Clowning after a big tackle instead of getting back to the huddle and getting ready.

Like I said: The only thing Kubiak did right was to bench them. Kept them healthy for the remainder of our games, sends a message to them to sit down and think about things. WATCH AND LEARN for a second.

EllisUnit
12-11-2012, 10:37 AM
They practice plays in practice? Thanks for the breaking news


How do you know that AJ wasnt supposed to run 8 yards before the break? Or maybe 9? You know that Gary called for him to break when he did? AJ wasnt the first option either I dont think

The whole point of a slant is get the inside position ona CB with seperation. This why its a time and distance play. Not saying there wasn't other options but 4th and 1 losing by 28 at the 40, why in the hell not go for it ?

GP
12-11-2012, 10:40 AM
I'm betting that Andre Johnson ran the route like he was told to.

Just a wild guess. I think he's got this.

2012Champs
12-11-2012, 10:46 AM
The whole point of a slant is get the inside position ona CB with seperation. This why its a time and distance play. Not saying there wasn't other options but 4th and 1 losing by 28 at the 40, why in the hell not go for it ?




Understand the point of the slant. Its time and distance as you have said so why is it so impossible that the execution of the distance could have been off?

EllisUnit
12-11-2012, 10:58 AM
Understand the point of the slant. Its time and distance as you have said so why is it so impossible that the execution of the distance could have been off?

Just assuming our future HOF wr knows the plays and did what he was asked of him.

2012Champs
12-11-2012, 11:28 AM
Just assuming our future HOF wr knows the plays and did what he was asked of him.




Well I dont really think he is a future HOF yet unless he gets some simpathy votes for just being the best Texans player of all time. But that aside a future hof could possibly be off a yard or two

TimeKiller
12-11-2012, 12:05 PM
Ahh good. I'm with you now, sure the receiver ran the route exactly as planned. Shame on Gary! What a numbskull!

Yes. Let all the backup run the bull**** underneath routes and send your #1 past the ****ing chains.

EllisUnit
12-11-2012, 12:32 PM
Well I dont really think he is a future HOF yet unless he gets some simpathy votes for just being the best Texans player of all time. But that aside a future hof could possibly be off a yard or two

If he can play 3 or 4 more seasons and get a few more 1000 yard seasons I thing he will be HOF bound

Yankee_In_TX
12-11-2012, 12:37 PM
This was probably mentioned - but when we're blowing a team out, Kubes says he doesn't want to disrupt Schaub's rhythm.

When we're getting blown out (GB, Pats) it is TJ time.

Has anyone asked him that question in a presser?

2012Champs
12-11-2012, 12:38 PM
If he can play 3 or 4 more seasons and get a few more 1000 yard seasons I thing he will be HOF bound

3-4 more 1000+ seasons? Thats a pretty big IF

EllisUnit
12-11-2012, 12:52 PM
This was probably mentioned - but when we're blowing a team out, Kubes says he doesn't want to disrupt Schaub's rhythm.

When we're getting blown out (GB, Pats) it is TJ time.

Has anyone asked him that question in a presser?

The rythm of handing the ball off ? Yeah would be terrible if he lost that, well even when we're getting blown out before TJ goes in makes sure to not get Schaub out of his rythm :kitten:

Everlong
12-11-2012, 01:07 PM
Pats fan perspective....

The one I didn't get was they were down 28-7 and had a 4th and 1 on their own 40. Why punt? If you don't make it the game is over but if you punt you've pretty much conceded and might as well pull your starters. I go for it and who cares if the other team scores because you don't convert. That's your last stand. Odds are they weren't coming back but give your guys a shot even if they were 0-2 on 4th down to that point.

Also going into the game I was really afraid of the open bootleg but we never saw it that I can remember.

Any way two cents from the outside.

JCTexan
12-11-2012, 01:10 PM
The score was 35-7 with eight minutes to go in the fourth when Kubiak pulled the starters. The offense had looked pitiful all night. My only complaint is I wanted to see Yates throw some..

Double Barrel
12-11-2012, 01:13 PM
Oh and by the way, you can bet our team leaders agree with me

Players stopped short of calling it a white flag, but receiver Andre Johnson and left tackle Duane Brown didn’t love it. They shouldn’t have. It sends a team a bad message to give up at that point. At least go down slinging it.

“I have no control over that,” Johnson said.

“I just line up and do my job,” Brown said.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/44713/texans-get-a-lesson-in-what-it-takes

According to some fans, these players are just whiny little dudes venting and need to suck a pacifier.

Somebody needs to STFU and it ain't you, gtexan. Some folks gotta' defend Kubiak's decisions in spite of what those decisions reveal.

GP
12-11-2012, 01:19 PM
Pats fan perspective....

The one I didn't get was they were down 28-7 and had a 4th and 1 on their own 40. Why punt? If you don't make it the game is over but if you punt you've pretty much conceded and might as well pull your starters. I go for it and who cares if the other team scores because you don't convert. That's your last stand. Odds are they weren't coming back but give your guys a shot even if they were 0-2 on 4th down to that point.

Also going into the game I was really afraid of the open bootleg but we never saw it that I can remember.

Any way two cents from the outside.

While I'd like to say that our head coach is a genius and he was intentionally sandbagging the playcalls.....for the purpose of then turning up the heat on you guys in the AFCC.....I don't think our head coach is smart enough to do that.

I mean, I try to logically understand why there were no screens to Owen Daniels. No screens to the RBs. No sweeps, no pitches, very VERY few runs designed to get the edge and leave Wilfork alone in the middle of his own private country he has. No bootlegs. I don't even think I saw a draw play.

In other words: Practically everything we do REALLY well, Gary Kubiak (I suppose) decided you guys would have that stuff scouted and would have prepared so well for it that everything we DON'T do well is what would be open for us against your defense.

I have no clue as to why this team, against the Packers and the Patriots, got so tremendously away form its normal game plans. I mean, I really really want to believe that Kubiak feels we might face the Packers in the Super Bowl and maybe face the Patriots in the AFC Championship game, so he's pulling a rope-a-dope. But then again, he's showed me nothing to give him THAT much credit for such a plan. And such a plan, IMO, is dumb because you need to win HFA throughout the playoffs...so there's no use in trying trickery.

Although this IS the guy who will often outsmart himself when he has a perfectly good way to go about the business of getting first downs and keep moving the ball at will. When we do that, he tends to go bonkers and has a series of calls that really boggle the most basic of football minds here.

Kareem Jackson not falling on that fumble near the goal line, and some timely calls by the refs, got us so deflated that nobody could settle down and do their jobs. Everyone was in "Oh crap" mode. The whole time after that fumble that KJ failed to recover for us. That was the turning point, when you guys scored that TD and then we screwed the pooch again on the next series of our own.

Hervoyel
12-11-2012, 01:22 PM
would you have felt better if we had lost by 20ish pts and we had lost any of schaub, aj, od, db, myers, JJ or j-joe etc??

would we have seen you start a thread commending kubiak for not quitting eventhough the game was over? :rolleyes:

My thoughts are "If they're going to play like they did last night every time they get in a big game against a high-profile opponent then what does it matter?"

Seriously, these guys just don't get up for big games. They cannot match the intensity or sheer will to win of the better teams. That's why Baltimore just literally has to fall apart due to injuries before we can beat them. That's why Indianapolis owns a 17-3 record against us. The Packers and Patriots are arguably the only two Super Bowl contenders we've played this year. I discount our win against the Broncos because it is universally accepted that Manning hadn't gotten his groove back when we played them. Today I have no doubt that he'd embarrass the Texans like he did in the past with the Colts.

Find any big game against any genuinely contending opponent that needs to win and you'll see a Texans team getting their heads handed to them. Last year's playoff loss to Baltimore is the high-water mark of the Houston Texans playing a quality opponent and that game was littered with Texans gaffs and screw ups.

To my mind the defense gets somewhat of a pass for last night because they get nothing from the offense in games like this. They have their hands full as it is and their injuries are well documented but the offense which is relatively intact (Come on, Ryan Harris for Derek Newton is a wash and Caldwell going to the house is addition through subtraction) just wets itself and sucks its thumb every time they take the field. I mean, if you're not scoring on the Patriot's you're losing. The defense eventually got it's act together and Gary's side of the ball didn't even come up with FG's to show for it.

Going back through Texans Kubiak-History and omitting 2006 to give him the benefit of distance from the David Carr Factor I see

2007 where they basically met or exceeded expectations (which were quite reasonable) going 8-8 in Schaub's first year of starting.

2008 destroyed by Pittsburgh right out of the gate, Rosencoptered against Indianapolis, and obliterated by Baltimore. Another 8-8.

2009 highlights include being sodomized on opening day by the Jets and rookie Mark Sanchez and a questionable win at the end against the Patriots who were already looking to the postseason to get us to 9-7. If the Patriots needed that game they would have taken it and the Texans would have enjoyed a third straight 8-8.

2010 where we get wasted by the Cowboys (a game fans expect to see maximum effort in), crushed by the Giants, and had our poop pushed in by Tim Tebow along with a seemingly never ending series of losses decided by late screw ups.

2011 Finally success interspersed with the Saints hanging 40 on us, The Raiders beating us in our house, Another punking from the Ravens, and losses to Carolina and Dan Orlovsky in Indy (another proud moment in primetime for the Texans).

This year we've had even more success (by one game) but as the stakes get higher the Texans look even more lost when facing contenders. Green Bay and New England wiped their asses with the Texans both on MNF to the delight of the viewing audience.

GP
12-11-2012, 01:31 PM
According to some fans, these players are just whiny little dudes venting and need to suck a pacifier.

Somebody needs to STFU and it ain't you, gtexan. Some folks gotta' defend Kubiak's decisions in spite of what those decisions reveal.

I fail to see where Paul Kuharsky proves that the players were unnerved by playing the bench.

I read the whole blog article, and all I see is two guys saying as little as they can so they don't create unnecessary static that might hang over everyone's heads.

Who is to say the guys were upset solely with the coaching? Could they be upset with themselves? They oughtta' be. Could they be upset with some of their teammates? They should. Should they be upset at the game plan by both their HC and their DC? Yes.

But what I really see is Paul Kuharsky sort of tweaking the quotes and bending things to suit his desire to sell a story. To get clicks. And hell, to have fun with it since he's a diehard Titans fan who really doesn't enjoy the duty of having to say great things about us, for damn sure.

A lot of these commentators wait for a shoe to drop. He obviously doesn't have anything positive to write about his own favorite team, the Titans. So he tries to create non-stories by using quotes that, to me, are not in any shape or form indicative of the full feelings of those players.

Duane Brown didn't have a good game. His man stood way off the line and used that distance to create so much speed that it made Duane commit to outside or inside...it was such a beautiful job by that DE/LB. Duane was having trouble with him all night long. Duane gets his mitts on a dude, it's over. Duane has to track and shuffle and reach for a dude, he can be exploited. Just an observation about his play last night. He can't be happy with how he performed.

Double Barrel
12-11-2012, 02:30 PM
I fail to see where Paul Kuharsky proves that the players were unnerved by playing the bench.

My point was solely to support gtexan02's right to vent after a pathetic loss without all the personal attacks from well established posters that should know better than to be asshats.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the coaches pulling players after obviously quitting the game. They had quit in them after Brady's first TD. The high school bully just laughed at their jackets and stole their lunch money. You could read the body language from that point on. The fight was over in the 1st quarter with the exception of a handful of players.

2012Champs
12-11-2012, 02:35 PM
My point was solely to support gtexan02's right to vent after a pathetic loss without all the personal attacks from well established posters that should know better than to be asshats.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the coaches pulling players after obviously quitting the game. They had quit in them after Brady's first TD. The high school bully just laughed at their jackets and stole their lunch money. You could read the body language from that point on. The fight was over in the 1st quarter with the exception of a handful of players.



I actually think you might have read the body language wrong. The defense tightend up well in the middle of the game after getting punched in the mouth, it was the back up help er offense who never jumped in to throw a punch

Double Barrel
12-11-2012, 02:41 PM
I actually think you might have read the body language wrong. The defense tightend up well in the middle of the game after getting punched in the mouth, it was the back up help er offense who never jumped in to throw a punch

The Patriots had their death grip on us at that point, much like an anaconda does when it bites it's prey. The rest of the game was them just suffocating us to death.

I never saw much fight in the Texans defense. A couple of three and outs after giving up three easy TDs does not impress me. The Patriots could have made that score a lot higher if they wanted to do so.

2012Champs
12-11-2012, 03:08 PM
The Patriots had their death grip on us at that point, much like an anaconda does when it bites it's prey. The rest of the game was them just suffocating us to death.

I never saw much fight in the Texans defense. A couple of three and outs after giving up three easy TDs does not impress me. The Patriots could have made that score a lot higher if they wanted to do so.




21-0 with 30 min to play isnt a death grip and certainly not when your D is in the middle of posting 3 and outs and holding the pats to no points. The defense tightend and the offense had a chance to make a game of it

EllisUnit
12-11-2012, 03:10 PM
21-0 with 30 min to play isnt a death grip and certainly not when your D is in the middle of posting 3 and outs and holding the pats to no points. The defense tightend and the offense had a chance to make a game of it

Agree the D did a pretty good job , but how long do u expect them to stay on the field and stay fresh. We were down 21 we got 3 straight stops with zero points.

Double Barrel
12-11-2012, 03:21 PM
21-0 with 30 min to play isnt a death grip and certainly not when your D is in the middle of posting 3 and outs and holding the pats to no points. The defense tightend and the offense had a chance to make a game of it

We can agree to disagree. The results speak for itself.

You do realize the Texans never got within a single score during the entire game, yeah?

This is the 10th year in a row that the Patriots have won 10 or more games. It's just business to them.

But for the Texans, it was like a Super Bowl to be on MNF against the Patriots. Makes them feel like little high school kids getting on a yellow bus.

At least they "had a chance to make a game of it". So they've got that going for them, I suppose.

2012Champs
12-11-2012, 03:48 PM
Agree the D did a pretty good job , but how long do u expect them to stay on the field and stay fresh. We were down 21 we got 3 straight stops with zero points.




See I could see making the case that after the D had 3 straight 3 and outs and Matt and Co couldnt post points that the D fell off because at that point its somewhat deflating

2012Champs
12-11-2012, 03:53 PM
We can agree to disagree. The results speak for itself.

You do realize the Texans never got within a single score during the entire game, yeah?


I do understand we never got within a single score and Id say that Matt's int was the first cause of the, special teams giving the pats good field pos to allow Tom a short field, a bad PI call on the Texans all played a part. However the D did give the offense a chance to post points and put the game within a score. 3 three and outs by the pats gave us the chance to pull within a TD or less if not tie


This is the 10th year in a row that the Patriots have won 10 or more games. It's just business to them.

But for the Texans, it was like a Super Bowl to be on MNF against the Patriots. Makes them feel like little high school kids getting on a yellow bus.

At least they "had a chance to make a game of it". So they've got that going for them, I suppose.





you have to have a chance to make a game of it and then have your offense execute. There is nothing good in looking back and having a chance

mussop
12-11-2012, 04:30 PM
I know the logic behind it:
Short week. Important divisional game next week. History of injuries. Down by 3+ scores.

But you know what? I don't care. There are 16 games a year in the regular season. And there are only a few epic primetime battles. This happened to be one of those. We basically called the game early in the 4th when we went 4 straight runs and then punted. When we slowed down our huddles presnap. We definitely called it when we pulled our starters and started playing backups.

I know picking up 3 or 4 scores in 1 quarter is next to impossible, but it sure sends a horrible message to our players, our fans, and the nation. Quotes from AJ after the game did not make him sound happy.

Then there's the fact that we will likely face New England in the playoffs if we plan on advancing past the first round. Our starters will have zero confidence because we pulled them at the lowest point. At least give them the opportunity to put up some garbage points to give them some level of confidence. At least give them the time to get additional reps against arguably our greatest competition/threat.

I'm embarrassed to go into work today. I have been talking about this game to all my friends and coworkers here in Boston for the entire year. And we couldn't even finish the game? Why even play the last quarter. Why didn't they just walk off the field. What we did was basically no different.

I can take getting beat. I can take getting beat badly. But tonight I saw something I haven't seen in 2+ years, and that's the loser's attitude. It's taken years to build that winner's culture in Houston and Kubiak risks throwing it all away in the name of self-preservation. Awful.

Thats your emotions talking.:kitten: Pulling the starters at that point was the only smart thing Kubiak did all night.

76Texan
12-11-2012, 04:36 PM
Foster had a 13 yard run called back at the start of the game.

Jon Gruden can't see how Duane Brown was called for illegal formation; neither can I.

There's nobody else that lined up Improperly either.
I saw that and I just scratched my head; looks like we're in for a long night.

And Gruden couldn't believe the PI calls on Harris and Manning either.
On the Manning call, he even asked that ex-reference (whatever his name is) who works for one if the network now - to confirm his view.

I just knew it wasn't going to be our night.

The Pats don't need any help.

2012Champs
12-11-2012, 04:36 PM
Another note from the game I think we would be better off fair catching every punt and having no blockers. That's got to be good for 30-60 yards a game

2012Champs
12-11-2012, 04:38 PM
Foster had a 13 yard run called back at the start of the game.

Jon Gruden can't see how Duane Brown was called for illegal formation; neither can I.

There's nobody else that lined up Improperly either.
I saw that and I just scratched my head; looks like we're in for a long night.

And Gruden couldn't believe the PI calls on Harris and Manning either.
On the Manning call, he even asked that ex-reference (whatever his name is) who works for one if the network now - to confirm his view.

I just knew it wasn't going to be our night.

The Pats don't need any help.



I think jean had a PI call as well that was iffy

Yankee_In_TX
12-11-2012, 04:38 PM
This was probably mentioned - but when we're blowing a team out, Kubes says he doesn't want to disrupt Schaub's rhythm.

When we're getting blown out (GB, Pats) it is TJ time.

Has anyone asked him that question in a presser?

Sticking with this.

Double Barrel
12-11-2012, 04:40 PM
I do understand we never got within a single score and Id say that Matt's int was the first cause of the, special teams giving the pats good field pos to allow Tom a short field, a bad PI call on the Texans all played a part. However the D did give the offense a chance to post points and put the game within a score. 3 three and outs by the pats gave us the chance to pull within a TD or less if not tie

When the offense is struggling to even get into FG range, the defense has to step up and make some plays. Fall on that fumble. Sack Brady. Disrupt something to change the momentum.

But we did not see even a single hint of that with the exception of Watt trying his best to get to Brady.

I told my wife after the second Patriots TD that they just looked like they were going to lose. They had this sort of deflated look to them, exasperation mixed with desperation, and from that point on I became emotionally detached while watching the game. I've seen it before with teams, and they were just getting beat and I did not believe for even a second that the Texans were going to mount any sort of threat to the Patriots.

That is what I was talking about with body language. You don't have to see it. I'm not trying to prove it. But I felt it while watching the game. They looked overwhelmed, like they expected something completely different than the game they were playing.

you have to have a chance to make a game of it and then have your offense execute. There is nothing good in looking back and having a chance

I get that, but nothing in this team's DNA has led me to believe that they can mount a comeback on a three score deficit to a championship caliber team led by an elite QB.

I'm not a rain cloud kind of guy. But I'm not going to pump sunshine for the sake of pumping sunshine. I try to be pragmatic about it, and at this point I see a great regular season team that still has a season or two to go before they can stand toe-to-toe with elite teams.

ObsiWan
12-11-2012, 05:54 PM
Regardless of potential injuries the guys just plain deserved to get benched. Maybe it will light a fire under some of them maybe it won't but I think Gary was as sick of watching them play as most of us were. Pick up the play in these big games or get a little embarrassed and show off your pouty face on the bench.

This is where my head is at.

They had three quarters and change to show what they're made of and they showed nuthin'...

Get the Eff off the field! Their a$$e$ might not start NEXT week.

ThaJokaa
12-11-2012, 06:09 PM
I wouldve pulled the starters, I dont see the big deal. Ass getting handed to us, regroup and comeback strong, win out, get HFA and then beat the Pats here since they'll be think it'll be an easy game like last time.

rush2112mn
12-11-2012, 07:14 PM
I would have pulled them too.....I dont want any injuries that would have hurt our team. PULL THEM ALL I SAY...

You want somebody to come out injured after that?

No question.....no ifs and or buts. I dont care what anybody says......
Have we forgot about how injuries affect this team?

Its one game....Its not the season....some people need to chill....its not the end of the season.....

Smartest thing Kubiak could have done...I would have done it at halfitime....they way they were playing........

drs23
12-11-2012, 07:29 PM
Didn't Gary say Schaub was his QB and he would play the whole game regardless of the score after the Jags game last yr? Guess he changed his mind.

Yes he did and yeah, I guess he did.

76Texan
12-11-2012, 08:07 PM
I wouldve pulled the starters, I dont see the big deal. Ass getting handed to us, regroup and comeback strong, win out, get HFA and then beat the Pats here since they'll be think it'll be an easy game like last time.

Yeap, the NFL is not the BCS where you need style point.

A loss counts as a loss, no matter what the score is.

Get as many wins as you can to get as best of HFA as you can and get ready for the play-offs; that's all that matters.

Runner
12-12-2012, 12:08 PM
Answer me this. Down 28 points fighting for HFA do u think the patriots, broncos, greenbay or any champion caliber teams pull their starters ? Or do they adjust and spread the field and "try" to make a come back.

That's the different between champions and want to be champions.

When I see a team give up early, I always think of this quote by legendary heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey:


"A champion is someone who gets up, even when they can't".

Dread-Head
12-12-2012, 12:35 PM
Let the starters remember the way they felt at the end of that game. Let them remember Brady's smirking face, the referees who helped the other team put poits on the board and every stinking comment made by some "authority" on ESPN about how the "Texans fold when playing 'real' oppoments." and they should use that anger to break the Patriots and anyone else they face in the playoffs in HALF when they get there.

EllisUnit
12-12-2012, 12:37 PM
When I see a team give up early, I always think of this quote by legendary heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey:


"A champion is someone who gets up, even when they can't".

Maybe its just in my DNA but I don't believe anything good comes from giving up, if you do how will you ever know what might of happened.

Ask the bills what happens when you don't give up ...

toronto
12-12-2012, 12:48 PM
Answer me this. Down 28 points fighting for HFA do u think the patriots, broncos, greenbay or any champion caliber teams pull their starters ? Or do they adjust and spread the field and "try" to make a come back.

That's the different between champions and want to be champions.

Without getting into every post, to me this captures the right feel for what I watched as a neutral fan on Monday.

Also will add every team needs a wakeup call. Be grateful yours came in the regular season.

TD
12-12-2012, 01:11 PM
January 16, 1991 Cody Carlson quarterbacks the Houston Oilers to a 41-14 loss to the Cincinnati Bengals in the AFC Wild Card Game.

Anyone who remembers why that doesn't say Warren Moon should agree......./end thread.

toronto
12-12-2012, 01:16 PM
January 16, 1991 Cody Carlson quarterbacks the Houston Oilers to a 41-14 loss to the Cincinnati Bengals in the AFC Wild Card Game.

Anyone who remembers why that doesn't say Warren Moon should agree......./end thread.

I watched that game at a Philly airport bar while on a layover. I remember how nice my alcohol tasted.

Double Barrel
12-12-2012, 02:15 PM
January 16, 1991 Cody Carlson quarterbacks the Houston Oilers to a 41-14 loss to the Cincinnati Bengals in the AFC Wild Card Game.

Anyone who remembers why that doesn't say Warren Moon should agree......./end thread.

Man, you've got a memory! I assume that Moon was out because he got hurt during a meaningless regular season game?

Side note: That was the last time the Bengals won a playoff game! Kind of ironic that it was the same franchise that the Texans won their first playoff game.

ThaJokaa
12-12-2012, 03:16 PM
I did call this loss tho.

Lost horribly to GB, win 6 straight
Lost horribly to NE, win another 6 straight

That 6th win is the SB..

TD
12-12-2012, 03:22 PM
Man, you've got a memory! I assume that Moon was out because he got hurt during a meaningless regular season game?

Some games stick with you. I remember there were two weeks to go in the season and the Oilers were out of the game and I am SCREAMING at the TV for Pardee to pull the damn starters. Next thing I know I am looking at Moon's dislocated thumb from trying to score a meaningless touchdown on the last play of the game.

Good leaders know when to pull back and live to fight another day. Pride is overrated.

Double Barrel
12-12-2012, 03:25 PM
I did call this loss tho.

Lost horribly to GB, win 6 straight
Lost horribly to NE, win another 6 straight

That 6th win is the SB..

I have been meaning to look this up! I was wondering how many wins we had after the Packers game. Good job, man! Hope we have another 6 game winning streak in us.

Some games stick with you. I remember there were two weeks to go in the season and the Oilers were out of the game and I am SCREAMING at the TV for Pardee to pull the damn starters. Next thing I know I am looking at Moon's dislocated thumb from trying to score a meaningless touchdown on the last play of the game.

Good leaders know when to pull back and live to fight another day.

Man, you've jogged my memory bank! I remember that now. Good points, though. Sometimes you've just got to retreat from a lost battle to fight another day.

Perki-Perk
12-12-2012, 03:36 PM
What gives me hope is we played poorly almost all across the board. I would be more concerned if we got blown out with our team giving all out effort.