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View Full Version : Has Anyone Wondered Where Our 3-4 Has Gone?


CloakNNNdagger
11-24-2012, 10:22 PM
For whatever reasons, lack of personell, injuries, etc, it seems to me that our fearsome Hybrid D has seemed to have morphed more and more towards a 4-3.......and with it, our "successful" QB rush has become progressively anemic. Is this just a false observation on my part? Would be interested to hear others' opinions.

2slik4u
11-24-2012, 10:34 PM
For whatever reasons, lack of personell, injuries, etc, it seems to me that our fearsome Hybrid D has seemed to have morphed more and more towards a 4-3.......and with it, our "successful" QB rush has become progressively anemic. Is this just a false observation on my part? Would be interested to hear others' opinions.

I've been meaning to start a thread discussing the disappearance of our pass rush. You've beat me to it...in some fashion.

I agree. Im interested to hear some opinions on why we can't get to the QB.

I will say specifically last game, it looked as if Stafford was deliberately getting rid of the ball quickly as we had no time to get after him. He did a good job in that regard because we came very close numerous times and it seemed as he was a half second ahead of us.

Allstar
11-24-2012, 11:07 PM
Shaun Cody?

Corrosion
11-24-2012, 11:29 PM
Doc , take a look in your waiting room .... the Texans 3-4 and more specifically their pass rush is waiting for you there.


I've been meaning to start a thread discussing the disappearance of our pass rush. You've beat me to it...in some fashion.


I agree. Im interested to hear some opinions on why we can't get to the QB.

This is what I was getting at in a round about way in my thread about giving up so many 3rd and long conversions.

The more I think about it , the more I come to the conclusion that its Cushing thats missing. His ability to get up the middle is what made this defense special. Dobbins and Sharpton just arent as explosive and cant fill his role.

Wade's going to have to come up with a new wrinkle or three to get the most out of those guy's.



I will say specifically last game, it looked as if Stafford was deliberately getting rid of the ball quickly as we had no time to get after him. He did a good job in that regard because we came very close numerous times and it seemed as he was a half second ahead of us.

I think Stafford did a real good job of avoiding a couple sacks .... Most notably the 3rd down play in the 4th quarter where Broyles escaped what had been excellent coverage to that point by Ball and headed up the sidelines .... that was a big play. Until that last change of direction , Ball was lock step with Broyles .... Stafford escaping the pressure bought just enough time for Broyles to finally break the coverage.

There were other instances but I think that was the most obvious .... Stafford had a hell of a day , he was putting balls in 3 inch windows on multiple occasions. Its hard to stop a passing attack when the QB is that damn accurate. Props to him .... That game was make or break for their season and he played his best game under pressure.


I know a lot of people will say different , but I thought Ball played a hell of a game despite Megatron making a few plays as did Jackson , especially in the second half when he took over on that freak of nature.
When the QB is consistently making throws thru tight windows and the pass rush is a half second late .... DB's are going to have a long day.

Corrosion
11-24-2012, 11:31 PM
Shaun Cody?

Cody is usually on the sidelines in passing situations .... But he's really missed in the run game.

I see several people finally realizing how much he meant to the defense now that they have had to do without his services. He might not be a star but he's the glue that holds that unit together.

Allstar
11-24-2012, 11:46 PM
Cody is usually on the sidelines in passing situations .... But he's really missed in the run game.

I see several people finally realizing how much he meant to the defense now that they have had to do without his services. He might not be a star but he's the glue that holds that unit together.

We're usually a 4-3 in passing situations

infantrycak
11-24-2012, 11:59 PM
We're usually a 4-3 in passing situations

Kind of. We go to 4 down (sometimes even 5 down) in nickel and dime so there are no longer 3 LB's behind them. We never trot out a base formation 4-3.

As to the original post, circumstances dictate what we do. Most games this year our opponent has been playing from behind so we have been playing nickel more which generally is a 4 down front although with Wade a lot of this is somewhat semantics as he basically has a 5 man front and picks and chooses how many hands are down.

CloakNNNdagger
11-25-2012, 12:08 AM
Doc , take a look in your waiting room .... the Texans 3-4 and more specifically their pass rush is waiting for you there

I implied as much in my initial post. And I really believe it has sorely affected our ability to use much of our effectively "disguised" formations coming out of a 3-4 (instead of the 4-3 we tend to now use) in passing situations,

PapaL
11-25-2012, 12:24 AM
I've been saying it for weeks now. Since Cush went down things have changed. We haven't been able to replace what he does.

GP
11-25-2012, 02:44 AM
They've had to bring Manning down and have him play almost as another LB too, which has led to us giving up more in the passing game.

Before Cushing's injury, it was routine to see Manning ball hawking on passes...now he's having to help play against the run more. His play on passes is dwindling, IMO.

Thorn
11-25-2012, 05:38 AM
We're missing, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but our starting players in positions of NT, 3 LBs, and a corner. That'll screw your defense up no matter what you're trying to run.

TejasTom
11-25-2012, 06:02 AM
we're missing, and correct me if i'm wrong here, but our starting players in positions of nt, 3 lbs, and a corner. That'll screw your defense up no matter what you're trying to run.

msr.

silvrhand
11-25-2012, 07:39 AM
It's what offenses are starting to do to us.

spread us out 4 wide, single back and getting the ball out on quick effective routes. Not everyone in the league is capable of doing this but there are a few teams. If you look at Stafford he had almost a perfect passer day, he was throwing sidearms with velocity and accuracy that makes me jealous.

It's effectively the short running game via passing.

dream_team
11-25-2012, 08:08 AM
This has been discussed in many different threads. I've noticed the lack of pass rush since the Packers game, and was really evident in the Bears game. The Bears are supposed to have the worst OL in regards to pass pro. Yet, I think we didn't get one sack in that game. And now, it has become a HUGE problem in the last two games as teams have been able to pass on us at will.

What I've noticed seems very evident to me, Reed & Barwin aren't beating their guys on one-one situations. It wasn't a problem in the beginning of the season because Watt was a one man wrecking crew. But now that he gets doubled just about on every play, no one else is stepping up.

The lack of Cushing doesn't help, as he's a superior pass rusher compared to James & Dobbins. But compared to last season, Cushing (or the ILB) doesn't really blitz all that much.

I'm hoping the Reed injury is a blessing in disguise, and Whitney provides that edge rush we desperately need.

IDEXAN
11-25-2012, 08:24 AM
The defense has had several stellar games subsequent to Cushings departure, so his absence is not the reason why it's looked so bad recently. And untill we lost Reed this past week, the players we look to for our pass rush (Watt, A.Smith, Barwin, & Reed), have all been healthy and in the lineup.
The problem centers around our OLBs, who simply have failed to produce in their most important function which is pressuring/saking the QB.
And it'll be interesting to see how the defense responds with Codys return ? I dunno, maybe his presense in the rushing defense had put the opposition in more 3rd & longs.

76Texan
11-25-2012, 09:37 AM
Wade Phillips has regressed. He needs to be fired.
Where's the pink soap? http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Rey
11-25-2012, 10:07 AM
43 is not the same as 4 down linemen.

We are not in the 43 in passing situations, but we do use 4 down linemen a bunch which is exactly what we've been doing since wade has gotten here.

When good passing teams spread us out we get out of our base 34.

That's not new.

76Texan
11-25-2012, 10:21 AM
It's what offenses are starting to do to us.

spread us out 4 wide, single back and getting the ball out on quick effective routes. Not everyone in the league is capable of doing this but there are a few teams. If you look at Stafford he had almost a perfect passer day, he was throwing sidearms with velocity and accuracy that makes me jealous.

It's effectively the short running game via passing.

This is a misconception, Silv.

The Ravens were the only team who had to shelve the FB (just slightly from normal usage) but that's because they were playing from way behind.

This would be the case for other teams we saw early in the season.

As for all other teams (Packers, Bears, Bills, Jaguars), they all used their FB(s) more than usual against us.

I checked their snap counts at Football Outsiders.

Like Rey said, and I had said many times, teams don't force us to go to the nickel or dime; we choose to do it whenever we want to.

Also, when I did the study if Wade's defense in Dallas, I noted that they were in the 4-2 some 40% of the time.

There's nothing new. That's just the way Wade runs his defense.

silvrhand
11-26-2012, 08:32 AM
This is a misconception, Silv.

The Ravens were the only team who had to shelve the FB (just slightly from normal usage) but that's because they were playing from way behind.

This would be the case for other teams we saw early in the season.

As for all other teams (Packers, Bears, Bills, Jaguars), they all used their FB(s) more than usual against us.

I checked their snap counts at Football Outsiders.

Like Rey said, and I had said many times, teams don't force us to go to the nickel or dime; we choose to do it whenever we want to.

Also, when I did the study if Wade's defense in Dallas, I noted that they were in the 4-2 some 40% of the time.

There's nothing new. That's just the way Wade runs his defense.

I never said that we were getting out of the 3-4, we are simply being spread out. Which means that we are only sending 4 on the blitz, and when reed/barwin go they aren't beating their one on one. Also the QB is getting the ball out quick as well.

snap counts on FB play is not a pure measure, it simply means they may have run the ball during that set, or montioned out of it.

srrono
11-26-2012, 09:41 AM
I think injuries are main reason for lack of pass rush.
Cushing
Brooks
Dobbins
Cody
James
With all these guys injured in our front 7 we miss the players of course. On top of that we have no depth now, so guys that are playing are taking more snaps which with the way our guys run full speed every play I think they are wearing down faster.
Joeseph being out means receivers gets open a little sooner as well.

thunderkyss
11-26-2012, 09:48 AM
Joeseph being out means receivers gets open a little sooner as well.

That really hasn't been the case this year. Joseph has not been that guy all year long. I agree QBs may not have wanted to test Jjo because it may result in a pick, but his coverage has not been what it should have been all year long.

Don't get me wrong, I want him back. I don't trust Ball even though he didn't look bad.

Texan_Touchdown
11-26-2012, 10:37 AM
That really hasn't been the case this year. Joseph has not been that guy all year long. I agree QBs may not have wanted to test Jjo because it may result in a pick, but his coverage has not been what it should have been all year long.

Don't get me wrong, I want him back. I don't trust Ball even though he didn't look bad.

What are you talking about? I think he's had a great year. I mean you can tell our PASS RUSH is better when JJo is out there.. all you guys blame the front 7 but you have to understand if the ball gets out quick that means someone is open which means someone in the back got beat..

thunderkyss
11-26-2012, 11:48 AM
What are you talking about? I think he's had a great year. I mean you can tell our PASS RUSH is better when JJo is out there.. all you guys blame the front 7 but you have to understand if the ball gets out quick that means someone is open which means someone in the back got beat..

I know it's over-simplified, but I feel if the QB is getting rid of the ball under 4 seconds, the problem is in the secondary. If the QB holds the ball for 5+ seconds, it's a front 7 problem.

However, I've been saying the same thing since game 3, Jjo played much better last year. I'll got try to find the stats, but I bet the completion percentage against has been higher this year than it was last year & I'd bet it's "substantially" higher (substantially being more than 10%).

He may be allowing less yards per catch, or about the same yards per catch, but I think his coverage has been much looser this year. Been saying it all year.