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View Full Version : Charles Rogers, for those that had doubts


Ihategeeks
06-06-2005, 05:33 PM
Is now going to practice without the Red No Contact Jersey.
He is officially 100% healthy and healed.

Unlike the wild predraft/postdraft rumors that something was wrong with him said.

Blake
06-06-2005, 05:39 PM
Cool. Lets hope he stays healthy.

awtysst
06-06-2005, 05:47 PM
Is now going to practice without the Red No Contact Jersey.
He is officially 100% healthy and healed.

Unlike the wild predraft/postdraft rumors that something was wrong with him said.


Thats good for him, but now he needs to make it through a full season.

Lucky
06-06-2005, 05:59 PM
Over/Under on Rogers' shoulder blowing out: 8 games.

I'm taking the under.

Ihategeeks
06-06-2005, 06:59 PM
Over/Under on Rogers' shoulder blowing out: 8 games.

I'm taking the under.

If you're going to be wrong, might as well go down in flames right ?

SESupergenius
06-06-2005, 07:08 PM
And he has only 1875 yards and 7 TD's to catch up to Andre Johnson. Seriously, how rediculous is it for you to brag about Mr. Weak Bone on this board? He only 3 more TD's and 243 yards more than Kellen Winslow. :goodnight

swtbound07
06-06-2005, 07:09 PM
burn. i'd also like a piece of the under.....i got even money on him not even making it the whole summer with his coaches hurling bricks at him :ouch:

Texas_Thrill
06-06-2005, 08:34 PM
Games? Can we put an OVER/UNDER on him just getting OUT OF TRAINING CAMP! lol

F-minus67
06-06-2005, 10:51 PM
Ihategeeks, you relize how funny it is to brag about a WR not wearing a red no contact jersey right?

swtbound07
06-07-2005, 12:38 AM
he is such a better player then andre johnson though...the only red jersey johnson ever gets to wear is battle red, and thats only twice a year...rogers gets to wear his red jersey 365 days a year......thus making him more priveleged? :confused:

rittenhouserobz
06-07-2005, 07:36 AM
I don't think this whole thread is that funny when we have Joppru on the bench for a 3rd straight year. I don't think Texan fans have much room to talk.

The brick has to be the dumbest/most ignorant idea I have ever heard. I hope he can make it through the season.

GoPats
06-07-2005, 09:48 AM
Ihategeeks, you relize how funny it is to brag about a WR not wearing a red no contact jersey right?

I think it's lost on him.

"For those that had doubts?" About what? Him making it through the offseason without missing any time? We're more than a month away from camp...

edo783
06-07-2005, 10:01 AM
There was a reciever a few years ago named Chip Glass. Could that be Rogers dad?

TopTexanFan16
06-07-2005, 11:11 AM
I don't think this whole thread is that funny when we have Joppru on the bench for a 3rd straight year. I don't think Texan fans have much room to talk.

The brick has to be the dumbest/most ignorant idea I have ever heard. I hope he can make it through the season.

yea but were not bragging bout joppru.....cause hes always hurt.

awtysst
06-07-2005, 11:14 AM
I don't think this whole thread is that funny when we have Joppru on the bench for a 3rd straight year. I don't think Texan fans have much room to talk.

The brick has to be the dumbest/most ignorant idea I have ever heard. I hope he can make it through the season.


Well, Rogers has made the field Joppru hasnt. Besides, there is nothing wrong with a little humor. Nobody is saying that they hope he never plays again, they are just guessing how many games he will play based on his previous seasons.

PapaL
06-07-2005, 11:20 AM
He only 3 more TD's and 243 yards more than Kellen Winslow. :goodnight

That was the funniest thing I've heard all week..... Thats only 243 yards and 3 TD's more than I've caught/scored in the NFL. Way to go Collberbone Rogers :ouch: . Not wearing the no contact jersey, hahaha. Priceless.

duece
06-08-2005, 12:50 AM
The brick has to be the dumbest/most ignorant idea I have ever heard. I hope he can make it through the season.

the theory behind this is that jerry rice's dad was a mason so jerry used to work with his dad laying bricks. the workers would throw the bricks at him and he would catch them(of course). thus making him have really strong finger tips and hands...jerry has said many times that he believes the reason he has such great hands is because of the long hours catching bricks. so coaches are trying to reciprocate this by doing it in practice hoping it helps their players to catch better....not knowing that the only way to teach the body to better at doing something is to ACTUALLY do that movement over and over again. the body will learn as well as the person......some people have the gift of catching others don't....that's why you have db's and wr's...lol...i say that in jest as i was a db(people have always said my hand were in question though..lol)

coaches are always trying to create new ways to gain an advantage and to liven up practice. i remember when i played that we used to have to catch tennis balls(making the diamond with the fingertips), the theory being that you have to concentrate much more on the tennis ball so when you go to catch a football it is much easier to catch. i didn't see the advatage but hey i made practice little more fun.

Ihategeeks
06-08-2005, 02:07 AM
For those who had doubts ...
About his HEALTH
After drafting Mike Williams.

What the heck did you think I ment?

swtbound07
06-08-2005, 03:12 AM
we get your point...charles rogers is temporarily healed...and while we realize this, texan fans are trying to merely reinforce to you that A) he has to stay healed for 3 more months, B) the lions coaching staff is using fun and innovative new ways to injure him and C) nobody on this particular board cares about rogers or his collarbone...except to occasionally take time out to praise the football gods about the reciever we got out of that draft. talk to us when he is 100 percent healthy in a real, brickless game. oh wait...nobody here will care about that either

Ihategeeks
06-08-2005, 04:03 AM
we get your point...charles rogers is temporarily healed...and while we realize this, texan fans are trying to merely reinforce to you that A) he has to stay healed for 3 more months, B) the lions coaching staff is using fun and innovative new ways to injure him and C) nobody on this particular board cares about rogers or his collarbone...except to occasionally take time out to praise the football gods about the reciever we got out of that draft. talk to us when he is 100 percent healthy in a real, brickless game. oh wait...nobody here will care about that either

There were discussions after the draft about the condition of Charles Rogers, because of the drafting of Mike Williams on this forum.

This isn't some , ooooh Charles Rogers is comming, watch out Andre Johnson . I could care less about that.

But I really enjoy reading the majority of feedback in this thread. You guys are either sensitive to the point of xenophobia, or just flat out punchy cranks.

And how is updating the status of Charles Rogers bragging? What did I brag about? Wow, that bone healed up better than any bone ever healed before, WAY TO GO CHARLES ROGERS, YOU GOT THE BESTEST CALCIUM EVER.

Someone says Mike is drafted because Rogers is hurt, I said he was fine, this is proof he is fine. Nothing else behind this thread. If you read anything else into it, you're being a * * * * *

rittenhouserobz
06-08-2005, 07:00 AM
I will try to restate what I mentioned earlier in a little different manner.

I just think that it is not very classy to joke about betting on a persons misfortune.

I won't lie to you. I hope that Harrington becomes a stud and all three recievers become pro-bowlers. When it comes contract time the salary cap issues should be interesting. Maybe then we can find a way to get Roy Williams in our camp. I know it isn't going to happen, but please let me dream.

GoPats
06-08-2005, 08:28 AM
There were discussions after the draft about the condition of Charles Rogers, because of the drafting of Mike Williams on this forum.

This isn't some , ooooh Charles Rogers is comming, watch out Andre Johnson . I could care less about that.

But I really enjoy reading the majority of feedback in this thread. You guys are either sensitive to the point of xenophobia, or just flat out punchy cranks.

And how is updating the status of Charles Rogers bragging? What did I brag about? Wow, that bone healed up better than any bone ever healed before, WAY TO GO CHARLES ROGERS, YOU GOT THE BESTEST CALCIUM EVER.

Someone says Mike is drafted because Rogers is hurt, I said he was fine, this is proof he is fine. Nothing else behind this thread. If you read anything else into it, you're being a * * * * *

Heh-heh, good job. I respect that.

TopTexanFan16
06-08-2005, 09:47 AM
we get your point...charles rogers is temporarily healed...and while we realize this, texan fans are trying to merely reinforce to you that A) he has to stay healed for 3 more months, B) the lions coaching staff is using fun and innovative new ways to injure him and C) nobody on this particular board cares about rogers or his collarbone...except to occasionally take time out to praise the football gods about the reciever we got out of that draft. talk to us when he is 100 percent healthy in a real, brickless game. oh wait...nobody here will care about that either

hahaha wow.....never laughed so hard so early in the morning....thax i needed that.

Dime
06-08-2005, 10:01 AM
I just think that it is not very classy to joke about betting on a persons misfortune.

This says it all. Anyone here that is making comments about 'oh he is a bone breaker, he will never play more then so many games' is being quite rude to this kid. I dont like to see ANYONE hurt, but I do wish for them to have a bad game when they play us. A few of you need to get some understanding how horrible your comments are to our members and those who visit our board. The Texans need to be a classy Org, both players and fans alike. To wish ill or harm on others, or even to bet for for them to only make a certain amount of games before they are hurt again is not showing respect to people, no matter how you dice it. Come on folks... lets be a little more of a class act, not classless.

Personally, I would love to see what this kid can do against other teams (just not ours). Who ever menctioned about the cap sitution in the future, are not kidding there if they all make it to the Pro Bowl.. Each of them definately have the potential.

PapaL
06-08-2005, 01:13 PM
Reading over what everyone wrote, no one said they wished he got hurt again. I'm sure we all wish him luck. Its just funny, simple. If this was one of my boys, he'd be catching the same comments, red jersey or not. Lighten up.

Lucky
06-08-2005, 02:04 PM
Someone says Mike is drafted because Rogers is hurt, I said he was fine, this is proof he is fine...
I said that was why the Lions drafted Williams. I stand by that. Your "proof” is worthless. Come back after Rogers has played through a 16 game schedule (just 1 time) and make me eat my words. Having said that, I think Mike Williams has a chance to become an All Pro WR and is with the perfect head coach to take advantage of his ability. Good pick, Millen. And geeks, don't get so cranky when someone points out flaws in your boys. Lighten up, it's the offseason. Save it for when the Lions go through their annual 5+ game swoon.


rittenhouserobz, no one is wishing ill will upon Charles Rogers. I hope he lives a long & prosperous life. Becoming a millionaire at the age of 22 is a good start. What posters are pointing out is that Rogers isn't a very durable NFL player. As of 6/8/05 that's an irrefutable fact. Not everyone can be. I don't see that changing, but that's my opinion. I'm not sending Rogers hate mail & I'm not sending him flowers, either. I don't think Joppru is coming back. I don't think Jeff Bagwell will make it back. Doesn't mean I get any joy from their injuries. I think you are reading something into these posts that aren't really there.

Ihategeeks
06-08-2005, 04:03 PM
Rogers has a bone break, no tendon damange, no nerve damge, nothing that effects his range of moment , his speed, his ability is in no way effected by this injury. The only thing he has to overcome is the metal confidence to lay out for balls like he has done his entire career in the reckless manner he does.

If he had blown his ACL twice in a row (Corey Buckhalter) then I could see reason not to expect a full recovery. But this is a broken bone, They heal. His Broken Bone wasn't completely healed the first time, and it the healed part sucked strength from the surrounding area and that broke. . This time they got a metal plate in there. Unless the metal cracks in half it won't happen again.

Any other injuries from here on out are just as likely to happen to any other player in the NFL. Having a bone break is not a signal of being injury prone. Injury prone is Ken Griffey Jr, and his long list of problems. Injury prone is needing to be walked off the field after every play (Stephen Alexander)
Injury prone is pulling you hamstring all the time (Donte Stallworth) Injury prone is Hip, Knee, Hamstring, Back, problems in the same season, every season (Az Hakim).

Chuck is dealing with a broken bone that did not heal correctly. Might as well be the same injury the entire time. If he comes out this year and can't stay on the field because of a hammy, neck, groin, pulled muscle, turf toe, or any of that other nonsense for the year. That's injury prone.

Roy Williams is in more danger of that right now.

canadiantexan
06-08-2005, 04:19 PM
Heres hoping Charles Rogers has a healthy and productive NFL career from here on out. Charles is just a young kid who no pun intended got a bad break. Rogers was a very exciting college player and hopfully will get back to that this year, He never deserved what has happended to him just like B.J. didnt for us (Texans). Also I never read anything on this thread that sounded like braggin about Rogers being healthy again.

Lucky
06-08-2005, 05:00 PM
Also I never read anything on this thread that sounded like braggin about Rogers being healthy again.
Did you read the 1st post in this thread?
Is now going to practice without the Red No Contact Jersey.
He is officially 100% healthy and healed.
That's bragging, not fact.

And say what you want to about Hakim & Stallworth being injury prone. But in their combined 10 years in the league, neither has missed double digit games in a single season. Rogers has done that twice in 2 years. Hakim has missed 20 games in his 7 year career. Stallworth has missed 8 in 3 seasons. Rogers 26. Enough said.

Ihategeeks
06-08-2005, 05:10 PM
That's bragging, not fact.

No....it's a fact. You can't dispute facts. He is not wearing the Red Jersey, and he is 100% healthy.

Can you dispute that? No, it's a fact
Where did I brag about anything in that?

Charles Rogers is healthy, if that is considered bragging, Then I am guilty.

Lucky
06-08-2005, 05:15 PM
And what exactly is there to even brag about?
I'm confused? Who started this thread?

Stop with the Tales from the Red Jersey, already. The players aren't even in pads, yet. Rogers hasn't even been bumped to this point. When the guy lines up for 16 games, comes up with 50-60 catches, and his shoulder is still attached...please come back and bust my Spaldings. Until then, saying the guy is healthy a hundred times won't make it be true.

PapaL
06-08-2005, 06:11 PM
Don't QB's wear the red jersey? Dosen't mean they're hurt, doesn't mean 100% healthiness. Just means No touchie.

swtbound07
06-08-2005, 06:20 PM
you know,i apologize if i came off the wrong way..it was late, i was tired, and was quite tired of charles rogers....i give you credit, that "bestest calcium ever" line cracked me up, and apparently you were using it to dispute the logic of the mike williams draft pick. to reinforce another point thats being made, nobody here particularly wants charles rogers injured except for his own home improvement loving coaching staff...hey guys......what happens if you throw a brick at koren robinson? .....he drops it and breaks his toe

TexansRockMySocks
06-08-2005, 06:43 PM
No....it's a fact. You can't dispute facts. He is not wearing the Red Jersey, and he is 100% healthy.

Can you dispute that? No, it's a fact
Where did I brag about anything in that?

Charles Rogers is healthy, if that is considered bragging, Then I am guilty.

In a way you were bragging. Everyone had forgotten this until you came in here with the " Yall said we drafted Mike Williams cus Rogers is too hurt, but look now he's off the red no touch jerseys" :rofl: So in a sense it seems as if you were bragging the fact we were wrong. ( even though he has tey to prove us being wrong)

throwANDREtheBALL
06-08-2005, 07:44 PM
I hope he has a great year and never gets hurt again.

But, why are we even having this argument if no one has even stepped onto the field in the Regular Season healthy?

Lets resume this silly squabble then.........until then.........lets talk about Harrington vs. Carr or Jones vs. Davis at least some guys that we've seen play.

big sarge
06-08-2005, 08:23 PM
To me it does not matter about rogers, but I hope he has a good season. However Jopporu or however you spell it. They just need to hand him some towels and some water bottles so he can do more than just soak up a roster spot. I mean really guys, we can't brag about jopporu even if we wanted :brickwall , he's the kind of player that can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory every time.

D6+
06-08-2005, 08:45 PM
One of the participants on this message board, who I know from another message board, brought this thread to my attention. I'm not aware of anything that has been written on this board prior to this thread but as a Lions fan, I'm going to give my input on some subjects that were brought up in this thread.


There's no guarantee that Charles Rogers' collarbone will hold up but everything associated with Rogers can be viewed with cautious optimism. A protective plate was placed over the area of the two separate breaks of Rogers' collarbone. Rogers has increased his bulk strength. He's now 220 pounds, which increases the chances of him holding up physically. There have been a number of players who suffered multiple injuries early in their careers and have gone on to have great success. Phil Simms comes to mind right away. Working in Charles Rogers' favor is his work ethic and desire to be the best he can be. All 3 of the Lions 1st round pick WR's have great intangibles.


Props to Andre Johnson on his accomplishments in his first 2 years. Johnson also comes across as a class act. His future appears very bright. Having said this, I have no regrets about the Lions taking Charles Rogers ahead of Johnson. When Charles Rogers has been healthy, he has looked like a differential player. Especially this past pre-season.


As for this year's draft, the selection of Mike Williams was made for a number of reasons. Mike Williams was the Best Available Player on the Lions board at pick # 10. Going into the draft, I thought he was the best Offensive player in the entire draft. If the Lions ended up with Williams, Derrick Johnson, or Shawne Merriman at # 10, I would have been satisfied. Mike Williams was clearly rated ahead of everyone else who remained on the board at # 10, as evidenced by the fact that it only took the Lions 5 minutes to make the pick. And practically all of that time was used to contact the teams the Lions had trade talks with, just to cover all bases.


Besides being the BAP, Mike Williams provides the Lions with a potential differential weapon in the slot receiver position, excellent depth behind Charles Rogers and Roy Williams, both coming off injuries, and a tremendous weapon in the red zone. Williams will do what it takes to reach his potential. In essence, his value is multi-dimensional. Considering the Lions haven't had the necessary depth at WR in recent years: even with Kevin Johnson added to the fold a couple of days before the draft, Mike Williams gives me reassurance that the Offense won't become one dimensional or worse if a significant injury occurs at the position this coming season.

Lucky
06-09-2005, 12:02 AM
As for this year's draft, the selection of Mike Williams was made for a number of reasons...
First, I'd like to say welcome. Always good to hear what fans across the country are saying. Even Lion fans. :)

And there's no one really questioning whether the Mike Williams selection was a good pick or not. It was. I agree with pretty much everything you said about him (I'd rate Mike the #2 offensive rookie behind Ronnie Brown). Williams should definitely be a force in the red zone. Mike across from Roy with Kevin in the backfield should give the Lions the firepower they need to kick start what was a moribund offense in 2004.

But the Lions don't take Mike if they are confident Charles Rogers will return healthy & ready to contribute. Teams don't go to the well 3 years in a row, selecting the same position in the top 10. A healthy Rogers, Roy Williams, & Jones should put up enough points for the Lions to compete. Then you add Mike Williams? There's only 1 football per snap. Someone (if not all of them) will not get the touches. That would make Mike Williams a luxury pick.

But can a team that hasn't been to the playoffs in 6 seasons afford a luxury pick? It's not as if the Lions are rolling in defensive talent that they can forget selecting a defensive player in the 1st round for the 6th straight year. A Derrick Johnson, Demarcus Ware, or Thomas Davis could have provided the Lion defense with the playmaker it needs. If Rogers is healthy, the Lions have 3 already on offense. That type of talent imbalance is detrimental to a team. Even a mediocre GM like Millen can see that. So Millen takes the defender this year. That's if he thinks Rogers will contribute.

But Millen doesn't believe that Rogers can be counted on, and that's why a luxury pick of Mike Williams turns into a need pick. Millen has missed badly on FA WRs, and with Rogers out, Roy Williams has to carry the entire burden. The thinking is that maybe the Lions defense can overachieve if Mooch can turn around the offense. Maybe the Williams combo can make enough plays that Harrington will look like a NFL QB. If Millen doesn't take Mike, both Harrington & Rogers will look like busts. A GM can survive missing on one top 3 pick (Rogers) but not two.

In the end, I think the Mike Williams pick will save Millen’s job. Harrington won't look as horrible, and the Lion fans will forget all about Rogers with Williams & Williams making plays. As weak as the NFC is, the Lions might even find their way into the playoffs (as a wild card). Until then, I guess we'll have to endure lectures on red jerseys and orthopedic procedures. :listening

D6+
06-09-2005, 09:19 AM
Lucky, thanks for the welcome.


Here are some thoughts based on what you expressed in your reply:


Though there's only one football, the presence of Mike Williams will help make those around him better. Someone(s) is going to be in a favorable coverage situation and/ or Kevin Jones/ Artose Pinner, and Shawn Bryson are going to have bigger holes to run through.


For what it's worth, the Lions haven't been to the playoffs for 5 straight seasons, as the team made the playoffs in the 1999 season. Barring the injury factor, I'm confident the Lions will return to the playoffs this coming season.


Regarding the players on Defense you suggested as alternatives, only Derrick Johnson would have likely seen the field on a regular basis. Unless the Lions projected Thomas Davis as a OLB. With the FA addition of SS Kenoy Kennedy, Davis would not have filled a need. As for Demarcus Ware, he probably would have only been a situation pass rusher in the Lions 4-3 scheme. Ware would have been a better fit for the Texans, if he would have remained on the board when they were on the clock. Hence, if you base playing time for this season as a major criteria on who to select ( I think it's a secondary criteria, compared to the bigger picture) as you are suggesting, Davis and Ware would not have been better alternatives than Mike Williams. Personally, I think Derrick Johnson or Shawne Merriman will turn out to be the best Defensive players in this draft. Providing a long holdout doesn't derail Merriman's career. However, it's clear that the Lions rated Mike Williams significantly higher than both of them. Going into the draft, I would have been very comfortable with Mike Williams, Derrick Johnson, or Shawne Merriman at # 10 but have great respect for the Lions BAP approach.



Matt Millen was a horrific GM ( CEO) in many ways, his first 2 years in the league. Since the winter of 2003, Millen has developed into one of the better GM types in the league. With all due respect ( those who know me know I don't talk trash), if I was in your position as a Texans fan, I would be seriously concerned about Charlie Casserly as a GM. IMO, the this off-season has set the Texans back noticeably. Travis Johnson doesn't appear to be a good fit in a 3-4 two gap scheme and the price in acquiring Philip Buchanan was very high. The moves at LB are also questionable. Time will tell of course. Though I gladly admit the Jaguars are the team I hope wins the AFC South each year, I have nothing against the Texans franchise. ( I'm certainly rooting for Reggie Swinton to do well. ) The only team in the division I truly dislike is the titans.


Though Matt Millen badly missed on FA WR's in the past, the addition of Kevin Johnson this year should pay dividends.


A major part of the value of the Mike Williams pick is the Lions Offense should stay on the field longer and help give the team leads in the 2nd half. As a result, the Defense should be fresher and in general be more effective playing with a lead. The Lions Defense was actually the team's better of the two units in the last couple of seasons but the lack of Offense much of the time diminished their effectiveness. Injuries didn't help either. Not having OLB Boss Bailey for one down in 2004 was a huge setback. Having said all of this, there's no question that the Lions need more of a consistent pass rush off the edge. This despite the fact that DE James Hall had 11 1/2 sacks in 2004. He's a good all around DE but not a differential pass rusher. In the end though, the decision on draft day came down to the fact that Mike Williams was the highest rated player, who can provide plenty of value at the same time. One thing that is very important to emphasize is when you reach for players, that almost inevitably leads to salary cap problems down the road.


I'll save my comments about Joey Harrington for another reply, if this thread continues. One additional thought for now: Don't count out Charles Rogers.

Lucky
06-09-2005, 10:00 AM
One thing that is very important to emphasize is when you reach for players, that almost inevitably leads to salary cap problems down the road.
I don't think guys like Derrick Johnson, Ware, or Davis would have been reaches. And if you want to talk about cap problems, wait until Rogers and both Williams contracts come up. No way the Lions will be able to keep all 3, if Rogers is still a viable player.

Really, you made most of my points. Boss Bailey is injury prone & can't be counted on. James Hall is solid, but not a defference maker. You didn't want to address that the last 7 Lion 1st round picks have been on offense. Though that the Lions have to overpay for mediocre defensive talent like Kenoy Kennedy & Fernando Bryant reveals the repercussions of those decisions. The Lions need to draft defensive playmakers.

And if they felt Rogers was healthy, I'm certain they would have. Your reiteration of the Lions post draft mantra of how Mike will expand the Lions offense is a bit :homer:ish. Honolulu Blue koolaid may taste great, but it's still koolaid. What was Millen supposed to say, "The guy I took at #2 in '02 is a bust. So I had to ignore the defense again and take another wideout so Harrington won't look like a bust."

If you want to point out mistakes the Texans have made, feel free. Just do it in another thread and post it in the Bullpen. I'm sure you will get plenty of responses, pro & con. But don't use Casserly as an aside to deflect criticism of Millen. And remember, I think Mike Williams was a good pick by the Lions. Because Rogers will never make the impact the #2 in the draft should make.

My bad on the Lions playoff lapse. They did get into the playoffs in '99 with an 8-8 record. Who knows, maybe 8-8 will get them back this season?

swtbound07
06-09-2005, 12:43 PM
Props to Andre Johnson on his accomplishments in his first 2 years. Johnson also comes across as a class act. His future appears very bright. Having said this, I have no regrets about the Lions taking Charles Rogers ahead of Johnson. When Charles Rogers has been healthy, he has looked like a differential player. Especially this past pre-season

okay....are you serious? find me 3 other lions fans that feel the same way....but for what its worth, i have no regrets about yall taking charles rogers over andre either :highfive:

D6+
06-09-2005, 01:12 PM
Lucky, I'll reply to your message later today or late tonight.


swtbound07, though I respect the opinions of many other Lions fans and people in general, I form my own opinion. Even if no other Lions fan agrees with me, that's fine. I stand by my opinion. I'm glad that you are satisfied with the way that draft turned out. I have no regrets at all.


The bottom line is Andre Johnson has progressed real well in his first 2 seasons but despite that, the Texans, like the Lions weren't able even to get to the .500 mark. What matters most is what occurs from this point forward. I saw enough of Charles Rogers as a rookie and last pre-season to believe that he can develop into a Superstar. His upside potential is off the charts and he has the drive that is essential for a player reaching his potential.

TexansRockMySocks
06-09-2005, 02:30 PM
I dont even know where to start with you D6+.

First off Casserly is a much better GM then Millen, and has a super bowl victory to show that. Also I think the price for Phillip Buchanon was just the right price. If we didn't do that trade we come out on the 1rst day with 4 rookies. Instead we came out with 2 rookies and 1 NFL-Ready player. Seems like a fair trade off. Do you think we could have found another Buchanon in the 2nd-3rd round? On another note pretty hard for you to judge Travis Johnson before he's even played. Texans have had a very good 1rst round draft history( Something the Lions can't boast), so I'm sure they know what they are doing. If you're going to already judge Travis Johnson like that, I might as well say Charles Rogers isn't a good fit for the NFL at all, considering he barely has played up to this point. Our LB moves were pretty reasonable too, maybe you can't see that because you are used to the 4-3 scheme. In a 3-4, you want to have big guys up front that take up the blockers, then you want fast,athletic linebackers zipping through the holes to get the quarterback. In getting rid of Sharper and Foreman, we not only stay young on defense, but we add speed and athleticism by signing Greenwood and starting Peek. Not only will our LB's fit the mode of "true 3-4 LB's" they will also be better on coverage, with the added speed. So really the Texans are doing what they should have started out this team by doing. Nothing questionable there. And are you serious you would want Rogers over Johnson? So you would rather have the guy who has missed 25+ games over a proven future superstar, and you keep saying it's because Rogers has alot of potential, but Johnson has just as much. You also know that in the future, after all 3 of you're guys become outstanding recievers, Mike Williams might start complaining of being the slot guy instead of #2 or #1, and you will have problems signing them in the offseason? Maybe Millen should have thaught of that one, and maybe he should also re-consider having bricks thrown at your recievers.

PapaL
06-09-2005, 03:58 PM
I saw enough of Charles Rogers as a rookie and last pre-season to believe that he can develop into a Superstar. His upside potential is off the charts and he has the drive that is essential for a player reaching his potential.

Superstar and upside potential off the charts from watching 5 regular season games and some PRE-Season games? Come on, preseason? While I admire you standing up for your guy, preseaon potential to develop into a superstar? Collerbone Rodgers over AJ is going to go down in as one of the worst picks in draft history. Just my 2 :twocents:

D6+
06-09-2005, 04:21 PM
Lucky, from my own view point, Derrick Johnson wouldn't have been a reach. However, the situation must be looked at from a Lions' brass perspective. If Mike Williams is clearly higher rated, the right decision was made in selecting him. Thomas Davis and Demarcus Ware both could well turn out to be long term quality players in the NFL but there were too many better options at # 10 for the Lions to even seriously think about taking them. Regarding Davis, taking him as an OLB at # 10 would have been far too risky, even if his grade as a SS was comparable to Mike Williams' as a WR.



This is how I look at the Lions WR's from a long term cap standpoint. Both Charles Rogers and Roy Williams are under contract for 4 more years. Hence, if the Lions choose, the team will have all 3 WR's for at least that amount of time. Especially with Kevin Jones at Halfback, this gives the Lions a pretty large window of time of having differential personnel at most of the skill positions. Before the 2008, the Lions could elect to trade one of the WR's, if it becomes clear that keeping the trio under contract isn't feasible.



Though I can see your point ( even though I disagree ) about Fernando Bryant being overpaid, the Lions were able to sign Kenoy Kennedy at a lower price than I thought it would take to get him in the fold. As a Texans fan, my guess is you must have not been impressed with Joey Harrington and Fernando Bryant at other times in their careers, as both of them performed very well in the Lions win over the Texans in week # 2 of this past season. As for Bryant, when he was healthy in 2004, he performed at a winning level. The drop-off from Bryant to Andre' Goodman was off the charts. Many Lions fans are down on Bryant but I'm not one of them. He's not a shutdown CB but he's a quality # 2 CB. Overall, I think you underrate the potential of the Lions Defense but you are definitely not alone.



FYI, my take on Mike Williams being a good fit/ potential differential player for the Lions was formed ironically around the time that the Lions were considering Corey Bradford as an alternative at the position. I expressed my opinion on the Lions site I manage. When the Lions signed Kevin Johnson a couple of days before the draft, I thought the chances of the club taking Mike Williams were reduced significantly. The fact that the Lions still took Williams reassures me that this is a value pick. Though insurance at WR was part of the decision to draft Mike Williams, we disagree on the amount weight was given in the equation.


We always clearly disagree on whether Charles Rogers will live up to his draft billing. Like one of the other posters in this thread mentioned, Rogers didn't have the type of injury that will limit his speed and mobility. There are no guarantees that Rogers' collarbone will hold up over the long term but with his increased bulk strength, I'm cautiously optimistic that Rogers will prove to be relatively durable from this point forward.



I respect where you are coming from about trying to keep the pure Texans talk separate from the NFL at Large discussions. I'm not going to start a separate thread but at some point I might decide to comment in a thread that is still on the message board. I'm certainly not looking to rip Charlie Casserly and the Texans organization as a whole. Though " some" Texans fans seem to look at the Lions as competition from the standpoint of David Carr vs Joey Harrington and Charles Rogers vs Andre Johnson, as a Lions fan I don't view the Texans as a rival. If the Texans finished in 2nd place behind the Jags in the AFC South each season and David Carr and Andre Johnson went on to multiple Pro Bowls, I would be more than content. Providing the Lions beat the Texans if both teams reached one or more Super Bowl's in the same year and when the teams meet again in the regular season in 2008.

Ihategeeks
06-09-2005, 04:22 PM
http://www.thesilkwarehouse.com/images/dev/rushhour.jpg
Credit- TheAlphaMale

D6+
06-09-2005, 04:41 PM
TexansRMS, out of respect to Lucky and the other Moderators on this message board, I'm not going to comment on the pure Texans points you made in this thread. Lets just say we disagree on a number of subjects.


Being that the Charlie Casserly / Matt Millen comparison is tied into an NFL at Large discussion ( Lucky, correct me if that's not the case and I'll respect your decision. ), my take on Casserly in Washington is Bobby Beathard and Joe Gibbs are most responsible for the Redskins winning the Super Bowl in the 1991 season.

Charles Rogers' skills are a good fit for the Lions and just about any other team. No one could have predicted that Rogers would suffer two separate collarbone breaks. Though it's obvious that you and just about every Texans fan on the planet will disagree with me, which is fine, I do feel that Charles Rogers has more upside potential than Andre Johnson. Believe me, the Lions are not the only team that would have taken Rogers over Johnson in that draft. Until Rogers proves conclusively that he won't be able to stay healthy in the NFL, there's no reason for me to change my original opinion that Rogers was the right choice. Again, the future is what matters the most with both players, as so far neither team has reached the goals we hope for with our respective favorite teams.


Mike Williams is as unselfish of a person as you will see in football. He's as grounded as they will come. Recently, Williams went back to Tampa to coach the Pop Warner team that he played for as a youth. Williams remembers his roots. He also didn't complain about his fate about not being allowed to play football last year. Until he proves that he's a " me" type of person, why should I believe he will behave in the manner that you suggested he would. We are not dealing with the likes of Randy Moss and Terrell Owens.


BTW, it wasn't Matt Millen's idea about the bricks. Fred Graves, the new Lions WR coach, who has extensive coaching experience ( Utah, Buffalo Bills, Cleveland Browns), thought of this technique. Personally, I don't like the idea, as the risk of a finger injury seems high. I'll have to trust the judgment of Graves and Steve Mariucci, as they have proven track records.

Lucky
06-09-2005, 04:51 PM
We always clearly disagree on whether Charles Rogers will live up to his draft billing. Like one of the other posters in this thread mentioned, Rogers didn't have the type of injury that will limit his speed and mobility. There are no guarantees that Rogers' collarbone will hold up over the long term but with his increased bulk strength, I'm cautiously optimistic that Rogers will prove to be relatively durable from this point forward.
Look, it's not about what you or I think Rogers' prognosis is. It's what the Lions were thinking when they made the pick @ #10. Seriously, what did you think right after the pick was made? Before the Lions warroom went into spin control. All I'm applying is the principle of Occam's Razor. When there are multiple explanations, take the simplest one. Mike Williams is a need pick because Charles Rogers can't be counted on.

Finally, here's a quote from Lions HC Steve Mariucci on the logic behind the pick:
"Charles really hasn't played for two years," Mariucci said, "and he's coming off surgery. And Roy Williams is coming off surgery, too. We also lost Tai Streets and Reggie Swinton, so we needed another player."

"Part of what we wanted to do was improve Joey's (Harrington) surrounding cast," said Mariucci. "Mike Williams will help us do that."
That's really all I said after the draft & all I'm saying, now. Mike Williams is the guy the Lions will count on. Charles Rogers coming back as an impact player is the luxury. If Rogers can make it back, great. If not, they have Mike Williams and they're moving on.

D6+
06-09-2005, 04:55 PM
Superstar and upside potential off the charts from watching 5 regular season games and some PRE-Season games? Come on, preseason? While I admire you standing up for your guy, preseaon potential to develop into a superstar? Collerbone Rodgers over AJ is going to go down in as one of the worst picks in draft history. Just my 2 :twocents:


Charles Rogers made the type of plays in the games he appeared in that only the greats can even conceive of making. If you would have seen Rogers in a couple of those pre-season games, guaranteed you would have been impressed if you were totally objective.


As for the nickname you gave Charles Rogers, it's in bad taste. Guaranteed if Andre Johnson suffers an injury, which I hope NEVER happens, I won't take any pleasure from it. A player's career is short enough. Charles Rogers is a good person, who is very easy to root for, regardless of what team you root for. Much like Andre Johnson is. Character is something I put great stock in.


If Charles Rogers can't remain healthy and Andre Johnson is durable for a long period of time, then it will be clear that the Texans made out much better. Having said that, I would still not question the decision by Matt Millen and Steve Mariucci in taking Rogers. I was not thrilled when the Lions took Joey Harrington with pick # 3 in 2002 but when the Lions took the 3 WR's in the last 3 drafts, I applauded the picks.

D6+
06-09-2005, 05:06 PM
Lucky, when the pick of Mike Williams was made, I was surprised because I didn't expect him to be the pick when Kevin Johnson was added two days earlier. When the initial surprise wore off, I felt very good about the situation, as I knew the Lions drafted a player who I rated as the best Offensive player in the draft. At # 10! Mike Williams provides great value in that spot of the draft. Draft value is a very important criteria in the way I evaluate drafts.


In recent years, the Lions were very thin at WR. Bad decisions, such as paying Az Hakim too much money and expecting him to be a # 1 WR instead of a slot WR, signing Bill Schoeder period, and Tai Streets not working out last season as well as the Lions' brass and myself thought he would, lead to the Lions playing short handed at WR. Especially when injuries mounted. Going into this season, at least I know that the Lions have as much depth a team can have at WR. It's very reassuring. What team in the league has a quality WR like Kevin Johnson as their 4th WR!

Of course it's possible that Charles Rogers will continue to be plagued by injuries and that Roy Williams could suffer a significant ankle injury again or worse. Having insurance factored into the decision but again, even if both players remained healthy last season, there was no guarantee they would have this season. And that the Lions needed more depth at the position.

DRIFTAWAY
06-09-2005, 09:04 PM
TexansRMS, out of respect to Lucky and the other Moderators on this message board, I'm not going to comment on the pure Texans points you made in this thread. Lets just say we disagree on a number of subjects.


Being that the Charlie Casserly / Matt Millen comparison is tied into an NFL at Large discussion ( Lucky, correct me if that's not the case and I'll respect your decision. ), my take on Casserly in Washington is Bobby Beathard and Joe Gibbs are most responsible for the Redskins winning the Super Bowl in the 1991 season.

Charles Rogers' skills are a good fit for the Lions and just about any other team. No one could have predicted that Rogers would suffer two separate collarbone breaks. Though it's obvious that you and just about every Texans fan on the planet will disagree with me, which is fine, I do feel that Charles Rogers has more upside potential than Andre Johnson. Believe me, the Lions are not the only team that would have taken Rogers over Johnson in that draft. Until Rogers proves conclusively that he won't be able to stay healthy in the NFL, there's no reason for me to change my original opinion that Rogers was the right choice. Again, the future is what matters the most with both players, as so far neither team has reached the goals we hope for with our respective favorite teams.


Mike Williams is as unselfish of a person as you will see in football. He's as grounded as they will come. Recently, Williams went back to Tampa to coach the Pop Warner team that he played for as a youth. Williams remembers his roots. He also didn't complain about his fate about not being allowed to play football last year. Until he proves that he's a " me" type of person, why should I believe he will behave in the manner that you suggested he would. We are not dealing with the likes of Randy Moss and Terrell Owens.


BTW, it wasn't Matt Millen's idea about the bricks. Fred Graves, the new Lions WR coach, who has extensive coaching experience ( Utah, Buffalo Bills, Cleveland Browns), thought of this technique. Personally, I don't like the idea, as the risk of a finger injury seems high. I'll have to trust the judgment of Graves and Steve Mariucci, as they have proven track records.


Kinna sad though, I mean throwing bricks to make your recievers better?

TexansRockMySocks
06-09-2005, 09:09 PM
TexansRMS, out of respect to Lucky and the other Moderators on this message board, I'm not going to comment on the pure Texans points you made in this thread. Lets just say we disagree on a number of subjects.


Being that the Charlie Casserly / Matt Millen comparison is tied into an NFL at Large discussion ( Lucky, correct me if that's not the case and I'll respect your decision. ), my take on Casserly in Washington is Bobby Beathard and Joe Gibbs are most responsible for the Redskins winning the Super Bowl in the 1991 season.

Charles Rogers' skills are a good fit for the Lions and just about any other team. No one could have predicted that Rogers would suffer two separate collarbone breaks. Though it's obvious that you and just about every Texans fan on the planet will disagree with me, which is fine, I do feel that Charles Rogers has more upside potential than Andre Johnson. Believe me, the Lions are not the only team that would have taken Rogers over Johnson in that draft. Until Rogers proves conclusively that he won't be able to stay healthy in the NFL, there's no reason for me to change my original opinion that Rogers was the right choice. Again, the future is what matters the most with both players, as so far neither team has reached the goals we hope for with our respective favorite teams.


Mike Williams is as unselfish of a person as you will see in football. He's as grounded as they will come. Recently, Williams went back to Tampa to coach the Pop Warner team that he played for as a youth. Williams remembers his roots. He also didn't complain about his fate about not being allowed to play football last year. Until he proves that he's a " me" type of person, why should I believe he will behave in the manner that you suggested he would. We are not dealing with the likes of Randy Moss and Terrell Owens.


BTW, it wasn't Matt Millen's idea about the bricks. Fred Graves, the new Lions WR coach, who has extensive coaching experience ( Utah, Buffalo Bills, Cleveland Browns), thought of this technique. Personally, I don't like the idea, as the risk of a finger injury seems high. I'll have to trust the judgment of Graves and Steve Mariucci, as they have proven track records.

I really don't see how my points were homers for the Texans, but more of a common sense. You said you think our LB moves were very questionable, and I simply sorted out why those LB's would help fit our 3-4 scheme better, so maybe our moves wouldn't be as big of a mystery to you. Are there any certain reasons you would think Rogers has more upside potential? And according to you, as of 6/9/05 more GM's would prefer Rogers over Johnson. OK. And as for Rogers having better potential, come back and say that to me in 2-3 years. I'll be right here waiting for that moment you come and tell me " See Rogers is a better player then Johnson". If that's the case I will change my username to LIONSRMYDADDY and use a lions avatar for the rest of that season. On the Mike Williams part, he may seem like a "me-second" type of guy right now, but that is bound to change 3 pro-bowl appearances and 3 paychecks later. When Mike Williams turns into a superstar( I have no doubt that he won't) you think he will stay contempt still sitting in Detroit at the #3 wide reciever position? Come off-season, do you think Detroit will keep 3 $50 million dollar recievers on their roster? O and if Millin is such the good GM he would step in and stop that brick-throwing fiasco immediatly. Oh and please do comment on my "pure texans points", i'm sure the moderators won't take any disrespect in your comments.

DRIFTAWAY
06-09-2005, 09:43 PM
I really don't see how my points were homers for the Texans, but more of a common sense. You said you think our LB moves were very questionable, and I simply sorted out why those LB's would help fit our 3-4 scheme better, so maybe our moves wouldn't be as big of a mystery to you. Are there any certain reasons you would think Rogers has more upside potential? And according to you, as of 6/9/05 more GM's would prefer Rogers over Johnson. OK. And as for Rogers having better potential, come back and say that to me in 2-3 years. I'll be right here waiting for that moment you come and tell me " See Rogers is a better player then Johnson". If that's the case I will change my username to LIONSRMYDADDY and use a lions avatar for the rest of that season. On the Mike Williams part, he may seem like a "me-second" type of guy right now, but that is bound to change 3 pro-bowl appearances and 3 paychecks later. When Mike Williams turns into a superstar( I have no doubt that he won't) you think he will stay contempt still sitting in Detroit at the #3 wide reciever position? Come off-season, do you think Detroit will keep 3 $50 million dollar recievers on their roster? O and if Millin is such the good GM he would step in and stop that brick-throwing fiasco immediatly. Oh and please do comment on my "pure texans points", i'm sure the moderators won't take any disrespect in your comments.


gee whiz kid, don't hurt yourself arguing so much. Whenever you post it seems as if you are taking someone on, but nothing bad about it. I admire you for taking on all these adults and making brilliant points. I still remember when you shot down LikeABoss, i haven't seen him post here ever since that.

Ihategeeks
06-10-2005, 12:28 AM
When you hear about the brick throwing, what do you people envision here?

It's not like they are putting the bricks inside of the ball shooter and lauching them at 50 MPH. It's just tossing them, it's about focusing on the object. If you get hurt just tossing a brick then you don't belong in the NFL.

What do you think is going on here? A WR coach going over hand full boor chucking Bricks at the guys? No.... The are probally standing about 10 yards away tossing the brick. Similar to drills with eggs.

Well, they stopped the egg drills, worried fans feared someone might contract salominila poisoning.

GoPats
06-10-2005, 08:43 AM
I'm picturing something out of an Adam Sandler flick. :cool:

... or a fraternity initiation...

Would that work with linemen too? "Smash your head into this wall!" :brickwall

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
06-10-2005, 08:49 AM
Charles Rogers...

zZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZz

swtbound07
06-10-2005, 10:43 AM
you know,i apologize if i came off the wrong way..it was late, i was tired, and was quite tired of charles rogers....i give you credit, that "bestest calcium ever" line cracked me up, and apparently you were using it to dispute the logic of the mike williams draft pick. to reinforce another point thats being made, nobody here particularly wants charles rogers injured except for his own home improvement loving coaching staff...hey guys......what happens if you throw a brick at koren robinson? .....he drops it and breaks his toe


nobody laughed at my koren robinson joke....sigh :ouch:

DRIFTAWAY
06-10-2005, 07:24 PM
I'll be right here waiting for that moment you come and tell me " See Rogers is a better player then Johnson". If that's the case I will change my username to LIONSRMYDADDY and use a lions avatar for the rest of that season.

funny stuff, the koren robinson one was funny too

ATX
06-11-2005, 02:07 PM
all i have to say is the lions could have drafted the better receiver in AJ, but no they wanted the hometown boy. kinda like if we would have drafted DJ this year because he went to texas. the lions have truly baffled me again this year by picking mike williams. how about a QB first? ya'll want to trade for ragone? we'd be happy to take one of your receivers.

jacquescas
06-11-2005, 02:14 PM
I think the drafting of Mike Williams just showed that the Lions were not 100% comfortable with Rogers, i mean at this point Williams is the most experienced one out there. They have the biggest names to come out of college at the reciever position the last 3 years, can they now produce at the NFL level. The funny thing is it could spell the end for Harrington if they dont get the ball.

Ihategeeks
06-12-2005, 03:40 PM
all i have to say is the lions could have drafted the better receiver in AJ, but no they wanted the hometown boy. kinda like if we would have drafted DJ this year because he went to texas. the lions have truly baffled me again this year by picking mike williams. how about a QB first? ya'll want to trade for ragone? we'd be happy to take one of your receivers.

People in Glass houses.

Carr isn't exactly playing like the #1 overall pick is he.
So you should cool it on any Harrington bashing.

DRIFTAWAY
06-12-2005, 07:27 PM
Harrington has had a better line and better recievers. Carr is playing more of a Top 3 pick then Harrington. No one is calling Carr a bust, but some people have jumped on the " Harrington is a bust" bandwagon. Experts are already predicting Garcia to take the starting spot by Week 3-5.

canadiantexan
06-13-2005, 12:47 PM
People in Glass houses.

Carr isn't exactly playing like the #1 overall pick is he.
So you should cool it on any Harrington bashing.

look at the stats Carr killed Joey last year :highfive:

Ihategeeks
06-13-2005, 05:59 PM
look at the stats Carr killed Joey last year :highfive:

Joey vs Carr
Joey 1
Carr 0

Carr has had his fantastic WR healthy, and the support cast healty, and a running game for 2 years.
Carr better have a "little bit" of an edge in stats, he has less excuses. He also playing is a deep ball system, so the yardage difference doesn't surprise me.
What does surprise me is Harrington having more TD's.

Neither QB came into a team that could help them. And for as great as the Lions Oline has been , they only have 2 starters still on the team from the time Joey was drafted on the Oline.
The Media gives Carr the "expansion team" excuse, well the Lions were just as good as an expansion team when Joey was drafted.

Neither guy has played to his billing yet, and Joey catches more flak from the media, because thats what we do in Detroit, it doesn't matter who the QB is, #2 on the depth chart is #1 in our hearts.

It's a do or die year for BOTH guys.

TexansRockMySocks
06-13-2005, 06:06 PM
Joey vs Carr
Joey 1
Carr 0

Carr has had his fantastic WR healthy, and the support cast healty, and a running game for 2 years.
Carr better have a "little bit" of an edge in stats, he has less excuses. He also playing is a deep ball system, so the yardage difference doesn't surprise me.
What does surprise me is Harrington having more TD's.

deep ball system?!?! Fans cry to see him go deep more, If anything I'd say things we need to do more is go deep more. Harrington has more TD's because he had more targets to throw too. A WR,A RB, and a TE. Carr basically had a WR and RB, and all that was with a defensive person about to get to him. Harrington has more time to throw then Carr. If Harrington is better then Carr then why is it that he has a RB capable of the same things as DD, 3 healthy WR's, a good TE, and good defense, but is still being predicted to lose the job to Garcia by many experts and even Lions fans. You say Lions were just as good as a expansion team, well they still werent, and the Texans actually were an expansion team.

Lucky
06-13-2005, 06:07 PM
Joey vs Carr
Every GM in the NFL would take Carr over Harrington. Including Millen.

I pretty sure the guy who wrote this agrees with that assessment.
The only reason Harrington looks like he has improved over last year is because of a hot 4 games to start the season. But even in those games the Lions had amazing field position off turnovers.


Since then he has done everything he can not to make alot of mistakes, while doing this he has taken no part in attemtping to make a play. Joey has never looked as bad in 2002, or 2003, as he has looked in most of 2004.

And the sad thing about it is 2004 he has the most help he has ever had.
I wonder who wrote that? :hmmm: