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C Madd
10-27-2012, 01:36 PM
Wow, looks like Jackson has come a long way since his rookie season. Pretty impressive.

http://www.battleredblog.com/2012/10/26/3560346/kareem-jackson-shutdown-corner

76Texan
10-27-2012, 03:25 PM
Wow, looks like Jackson has come a long way since his rookie season. Pretty impressive.

http://www.battleredblog.com/2012/10/26/3560346/kareem-jackson-shutdown-cornerMSR

Kareem actually did much better than the numbers indicate in the Broncos game.

Of the 5 medium-to-deep passes charged against him, only one was legitimate.
Two were in zones (the last one in the waning moment where the Texans only needed to keep everything in front of them) and two were the responsibility of the safeties.

So yeah, IMHO, KJ has been playing very well.

Thorn
10-27-2012, 03:29 PM
We no longer have to pray to the football gods because Wade has descended from the great goalposts in the sky to resurrect our defense. From storm clouds of batted down passes to golden 6-picks of glory our defense will plow through the bewildered enemy offense like hyenas on baby gazelles. My friends, the the House of Pain has returned.

thunderkyss
10-27-2012, 03:47 PM
Wow, looks like Jackson has come a long way since his rookie season. Pretty impressive.

http://www.battleredblog.com/2012/10/26/3560346/kareem-jackson-shutdown-corner

Yeah, it's funny how so many of our fans said he didn't have the talent to play in this league. Or that he wasn't worthy of a first round pick.

I understand he played poorly, but all rookies do, especially starting at #1 or #2 CB.

stingray
10-27-2012, 03:49 PM
Where is "Da truth Explodes"? He'll come in and argue that Kareem is terrible and should be flipping burgers at Burger King.

gary
10-27-2012, 03:59 PM
Yeah, it's funny how so many of our fans said he didn't have the talent to play in this league. Or that he wasn't worthy of a first round pick.

I understand he played poorly, but all rookies do, especially starting at #1 or #2 CB.Not all. I am happy for KJ.

2slik4u
10-27-2012, 04:11 PM
Where is "Da truth Explodes"? He'll come in and argue that Kareem is terrible and should be flipping burgers at Burger King.

I want EllisUnit to eat crow and finally admit he was AND is wrong about this kid. I knew time would tell the true story. Can someone make this happen?

GP
10-27-2012, 04:45 PM
yeah, it's funny how so many of our fans said he didn't have the talent to play in this league. Or that he wasn't worthy of a first round pick.

I understand he played poorly, but all rookies do, especially starting at #1 or #2 cb.

lol.

Playoffs
10-27-2012, 04:52 PM
KJ is really maximizing his talents out there.

He has historically struggled most against taller, bigger WRs. (Duh) Not sure if we have a big enough sample size to evaluate on that front?

badboy
10-27-2012, 05:03 PM
Yeah, it's funny how so many of our fans said he didn't have the talent to play in this league. Or that he wasn't worthy of a first round pick.

I understand he played poorly, but all rookies do, especially starting at #1 or #2 CB.I will only speak for myself and I was firmly against Jackson when he was drafted. He was not a bump and run corner & that was how he was being played. You can re-write history but KJ spent a lot time stumbling and catching up when he tried to bump a vet & missed. He did not have the coach he has now. The best things about KJ was he did not allow the pressure to screw with his psyche and he listened to the new coach.

The team we had in 2010 was not conducive to a first round pick not reaching his peak until his third season. We needed help immediately. Regardless, Texans coaches took a project and made him into an apparent very good player. Props to them and to KJ.

welsh texan
10-27-2012, 05:45 PM
I'll speak for myself too, I thought there could be no way that KJ would be able to recover mentally from what happened to him in his rookie season. Been proved wrong, and just imagine if JoJo can get himself healthy over the bye week.

GP
10-27-2012, 05:52 PM
I'll give it until the end of the season before commenting here.

His career is in its 3rd year, not even to the halfway point of that 3rd season...it's a bit premature to start the whole "I'm calling everyone out!" thread. Geez, let's fit the guy for a HOF jacket already I suppose. LOL.

Nawzer
10-27-2012, 06:05 PM
He's having a much better season so far. I can think of only 1 instance when he looked like the old Kareem Jackson when he doesn't turn his head around.

C Madd
10-27-2012, 06:06 PM
I'll give it until the end of the season before commenting here.

His career is in its 3rd year, not even to the halfway point of that 3rd season...it's a bit premature to start the whole "I'm calling everyone out!" thread. Geez, let's fit the guy for a HOF jacket already I suppose. LOL.

I agree it's too early for that, but I think it looking promising. I'm sure we all remember 2010 and these numbers are a vast improvement. Let's hope he continues this pace!

Lucky
10-27-2012, 06:15 PM
I want EllisUnit to eat crow and finally admit he was AND is wrong about this kid. I knew time would tell the true story. Can someone make this happen?

Was? Kareem Jackson was the worst starting corner in the league in 2010. Now, he deserves mention as a Pro Bowl possibility. Jackson should get credit for much of his improvement, but where would he be without the tutelage of Vance Joseph and Wade Phillips. Fact is that since Wade arrived, a lot of things that stunk now smell like roses.

dc_txtech
10-27-2012, 06:37 PM
Was? Kareem Jackson was the worst starting corner in the league in 2010. Now, he deserves mention as a Pro Bowl possibility. Jackson should get credit for much of his improvement, but where would he be without the tutelage of Vance Joseph and Wade Phillips. Fact is that since Wade arrived, a lot of things that stunk now smell like roses.

It was wrong to call the guy a bust halfway through his first season. Especially when you look at the help he had around him.

Vinny
10-27-2012, 06:52 PM
Where is "Da truth Explodes"? He'll come in and argue that Kareem is terrible and should be flipping burgers at Burger King.
he's been too busy posting at the forum he spends most of his time at (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/19/pg1/srtpages). I'm sure he'll be back soon.

76Texan
10-27-2012, 07:07 PM
For those who preferred Devin McCourty over Kareem Jackson.

http://www.csnne.com/football-new-england-patriots/patriots-talk/Trash-Talk-Where-does-Devin-McCourty-fit?blockID=793685

Make sure you listen every words to the end.
Enjoy! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

Note the date: 10/26/2012

Playoffs
10-27-2012, 08:02 PM
Kareem Jackson was the worst starting corner in the league in 2010.Almost the worst (http://www.profootballfocus.com/)... ;)

See below: http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2046302&postcount=23

thunderkyss
10-27-2012, 08:08 PM
Almost the worst (http://www.profootballfocus.com/)... ;)

.................................................. ...Snaps.........Rating
096 Kareem Jackson HST ......................908..........-11.3
096 Cortland Finnegan TEN ..................1209..........-11.3
098 Derek Cox JAX ...............................691.........-11.5
099 Richard Marshall CAR......................1114.........-11.7
100 Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie ARZ....1132..........-13.4

Cromartie?? DRC?? Isn't he on the dream team?

76Texan
10-27-2012, 08:39 PM
Almost the worst (http://www.profootballfocus.com/)... ;)

.................................................. ...Snaps.........Rating
096 Kareem Jackson HST ......................908..........-11.3
096 Cortland Finnegan TEN ..................1209..........-11.3
098 Derek Cox JAX ...............................691.........-11.5
099 Richard Marshall CAR......................1114.........-11.7
100 Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie ARZ....1132..........-13.4

The problem with individual numbers is right there.

You just can't count on stats alone to determine a player's performance.
If you use that list as a criteria to select your players, you couldn't be any more ill-equipped.

Even a guy like Derek Cox gave the guys at PFF a wild change of heart.
They called him a secret superstar entering this season:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/05/31/secret-superstar-derek-cox-cb-jacksonville-jaguars/

The fact that guys were all over the place from one year to the next in their evaluation should tell you something.
If you use them as a scouting service, well.... please fill in the blank.

EllisUnit
10-27-2012, 09:51 PM
I want EllisUnit to eat crow and finally admit he was AND is wrong about this kid. I knew time would tell the true story. Can someone make this happen?

i ALWAYS hoped he would turn into a top tier CB, he has greatly improved no doubt. As odd as it may sound i still worry about him out there, lets face brady or a team with more than 1 stud WR that jojo covers and see how he does.

Playoffs
10-27-2012, 10:46 PM
Let me correct myself, as my prior post was "overall ratings" and we're really talking about coverage rating when we discuss CBs. :tiphat:

Below is the 2010 worst coverage CBs*.


.....................Snaps.........Coverage Rating


95 Marcus Trufant SEA 949 ...........-8.1
96 Jerraud Powers IND 596 ............-8.3
97 Kareem Jackson HST 908 ..........-8.8
98 Asher Allen MIN 709 .................-9.2
99 Cortland Finnegan TEN 1209 .....-10.0
100 Eric Wright CLV 727 ...............-10.1

*This is as much formatting I'll re-do as it takes forever to get everything to line up properly.

aussie_texan
10-27-2012, 10:57 PM
could not be happier for this guy. had the entire city on his back and his been able to brush it off and start performing really well considering where his come from, and to think i believe he can still get better.
To be able to cope with everything that occurred in his first 2 years shows A LOT of his mindset to be able to bounce back.
On ya KJAX!!!!!

thunderkyss
10-28-2012, 01:00 AM
The problem with individual numbers is right there.

You just can't count on stats alone to determine a player's performance.
If you use that list as a criteria to select your players, you couldn't be any more ill-equipped.

Even a guy like Derek Cox gave the guys at PFF a wild change of heart.
They called him a secret superstar entering this season:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/05/31/secret-superstar-derek-cox-cb-jacksonville-jaguars/

The fact that guys were all over the place from one year to the next in their evaluation should tell you something.
If you use them as a scouting service, well.... please fill in the blank.



Well, those are profootballfocus.com numbers. They don't just look at stats, they watch the player. I don't know how those ratings are derived, but even though I thought Kareem had the talent to play in the NFL, I wasn't blind, he sucked.

Joe Flacco, he's got the talent to play in the NFL, Last Sunday he sucked.

76Texan
10-28-2012, 01:16 AM
Let me correct myself, as my prior post was "overall ratings" and we're really talking about coverage rating when we discuss CBs. :tiphat:

Below is the 2010 worst coverage CBs*.



95 Marcus Trufant SEA 949 ...........-8.1
96 Jerraud Powers IND 596 ............-8.3
97 Kareem Jackson HST 908 ..........-8.8
98 Asher Allen MIN 709 .................-9.2
99 Cortland Finnegan TEN 1209 .....-10.0
100 Eric Wright CLV 727 ...............-10.1

*This is as much formatting I'll re-do as it takes forever to get everything to line up properly.

Neither list can be trusted.

One guy was rated #10 overall by Football Outsiders in YPP in the same year.
That alone should tell you to take any ranking with a grain of salt. :good:

76Texan
10-28-2012, 01:22 AM
Well, those are profootballfocus.com numbers. They don't just look at stats, they watch the player. I don't know how those ratings are derived, but even though I thought Kareem had the talent to play in the NFL, I wasn't blind, he sucked.

Joe Flacco, he's got the talent to play in the NFL, Last Sunday he sucked.

Yeah they watched the same players as you and I do, and I disagree with the view that KJ sucked in 2010.

He played just about to be expected as a rookie in that system.

I guess you weren't here (on this MB) last off-season when I said that the guys that sucked were no longer with the team (Wilson and Pollard.)
And that was Wade Phillips' decision.
Only thing I can say is that he agreed with me. http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

thunderkyss
10-28-2012, 01:27 AM
He played just about to be expected as a rookie in that system.


I was here. I wouldn't have expected anyone to play well on that defense. individually we had some good talent, just didn't play well together.

76Texan
10-28-2012, 01:35 AM
I was here. I wouldn't have expected anyone to play well on that defense. individually we had some good talent, just didn't play well together.

So what do think make sense?

Wade came in.
He watched the tapes.
Before even spending any time with these guys on the field, he let Wilson and Pollard walk and he said he will move Quin to safety.
Then they went out and get JJo and Manning.

If KJ sucked, it would make more sense to move him to safety instead of Quin because after all, everybody at least agree that he's a good tackler and can play with the ball in front of him.

powda
10-28-2012, 01:58 AM
So what do think make sense?

Wade came in.
He watched the tapes.
Before even spending any time with these guys on the field, he let Wilson and Pollard walk and he said he will move Quin to safety.
Then they went out and get JJo and Manning.

If KJ sucked, it would make more sense to move him to safety instead of Quin because after all, everybody at least agree that he's a good tackler and can play with the ball in front of him.

Hey 76, i wanna give you props. You stood by kareem and defended his play staunchly the last couple of years. I know it wasnt always easy for you taking crap from as many people here as you did. I know a pass rush helps but just maybe kareem wasnt as bad as folks thought. Kudos.

run-david-run
10-28-2012, 11:49 AM
KJ is really maximizing his talents out there.

He has historically struggled most against taller, bigger WRs. (Duh) Not sure if we have a big enough sample size to evaluate on that front?

Ask Anquan Boldin what he thought last week during his 1 catch for 7 yards.

Playoffs
10-28-2012, 12:45 PM
Ask Anquan Boldin what he thought last week during his 1 catch for 7 yards.Boldin is 6' " & his best 40 yard dash was almost 10 years ago at 4.72 . Not big, not fast, still good.

Brandon420tx
10-28-2012, 04:26 PM
Ask Anquan Boldin what he thought last week during his 1 catch for 7 yards.

Actually KJ spent more time guarding Jacoby on the outside while Bolden spent alot of time in the slot covered by McCain

ThaJokaa
10-28-2012, 04:54 PM
<--- See Avi

Playoffs
10-28-2012, 05:13 PM
<--- See Avi

That has to be a first. http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e316/Soizic22/a%20smilie/laugh-1.gif

GP
10-28-2012, 06:34 PM
I agree it's too early for that, but I think it looking promising. I'm sure we all remember 2010 and these numbers are a vast improvement. Let's hope he continues this pace!

See, that's a good post. Measured, hopeful, admits he's on track with where Texans fans would want him to be by now.

You forgot to leave out scathing requests for crow to be eaten, other than that it was a great post.

drs23
10-28-2012, 09:53 PM
See, that's a good post. Measured, hopeful, admits he's on track with where Texans fans would want him to be by now.

You forgot to leave out scathing requests for crow to be eaten, other than that it was a great post.

Yes, he did.

So I'll add: Many servings of crow must be served! :specnatz:

buddyboy
10-28-2012, 11:02 PM
I'll give it until the end of the season before commenting here.

His career is in its 3rd year, not even to the halfway point of that 3rd season...it's a bit premature to start the whole "I'm calling everyone out!" thread. Geez, let's fit the guy for a HOF jacket already I suppose. LOL.

You're right, it's too soon into his good play to start calling for him to be crowned.

It was also FAR too early for him to be crucified by members of this board half a year into his career.

DocBar
10-29-2012, 09:20 PM
The problem with individual numbers is right there.

You just can't count on stats alone to determine a player's performance.
If you use that list as a criteria to select your players, you couldn't be any more ill-equipped.

Even a guy like Derek Cox gave the guys at PFF a wild change of heart.
They called him a secret superstar entering this season:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/05/31/secret-superstar-derek-cox-cb-jacksonville-jaguars/

The fact that guys were all over the place from one year to the next in their evaluation should tell you something.
If you use them as a scouting service, well.... please fill in the blank.

76, you called it a long time ago. Kudos to you and KJ.

thunderkyss
10-29-2012, 09:49 PM
So what do think make sense?

Wade came in.
He watched the tapes.
Before even spending any time with these guys on the field, he let Wilson and Pollard walk and he said he will move Quin to safety.
Then they went out and get JJo and Manning.

If KJ sucked, it would make more sense to move him to safety instead of Quin because after all, everybody at least agree that he's a good tackler and can play with the ball in front of him.

I think he saw what you saw, what I saw. Individually he saw talented players with the tools to do their job, but they weren't being asked to do what they were good at.

I still don't think Frank Bush was a bad DC from an Xs & Os POV. We saw what he was capable of doing in 2009. However, in 2010 the year started with a little adversity, not landing a veteran corner, loosing Bullman in the preseason, Cushing being suspended for 4 games, losing Barwin in the 1st qtr of game 1.

Frank Bush's biggest problem was not having the fortitude (read gnads) to continue attacking the LOS like he did in 2009. He took a team of downhill players & had them playing on their heels. I'm sure he also had the secondary "cover" for Kj. Instead of doing their own jobs, they were worried about our "weak-spot"

We gave up a lot of passing yards the first few games & it snowballed. Instead of recognizing the problem, the pass rush, he continued to try to get better at something we weren't built to do & the rules favoring the passing game wasn't helping.

Anytime we got behind in games, you could see he would change his MO & let the front 7 do what they do, play down hill attack the LOS & we would get back into games. Then he'd screw up & play coverage again.

We had one weak spot, the rookie corner. Not that he was bad, but that he was a rookie in a man/man system. Instead of going with that & letting the other 10 guys do what they were good at, he made us weak in all 11 spots.

I'm not a Kj hater, I've defended him since the day we drafted him, Smithiak has hit more times than not on the 1st & 2nd round picks. I watched the guy, he had the size, he had the speed, he had the tools. He played tough & without fear (confidence & fear are two totally different things). I saw all your screen shots of how the defense was "supposed" to play certain coverages & I agreed that your break downs made sense.

He played well for a rookie. But he sucked. Cushing Sucked, Quin (my favorite player) sucked, McCain sucked, Pollard sucked, Cody sucked, Mario sucked... If they played on the defense, they sucked in 2010.

Under a different screen name, before our play-off game against the Ravens, I said if I were Wade, I'd switch my corners. Even though Jjo normally locked up on the other teams #1, he was better suited to play the speedy Torry Smith & Kareem was better suited to play the more physical Bolden.

I'm not saying Wade listened to me, but he did make the switch & it worked out a lot better.

So I wrote all that, just to say this. Don't confuse me for all the Kj haters, I'm just being honest. In 2010 he sucked.

GP
10-30-2012, 01:10 AM
You're right, it's too soon into his good play to start calling for him to be crowned.

It was also FAR too early for him to be crucified by members of this board half a year into his career.

No, he was growing rather slowly. He deserved the criticism he received.

Likewise, he deserves the early congrats that he's getting thus far this season.

But he doesn't deserve for the case to be closed with 9 games left to play and a flurry of postseason games awaiting. So...like I said "I'll calmly wait and see which KJ is the real KJ: Growing and Learning KJ or Curb Kicked KJ." He has just as big of a chance at regression as he does progression right now.

Connor Barwin broke out of a 6-game funk vs. Ravens in our last game, but I won't sit here and say "Gee, you know what? I was too harsh on him those first 6 games of this season. He's baaaaack!" LOL.

buddyboy
10-30-2012, 09:11 AM
No, he was growing rather slowly. He deserved the criticism he received.

Likewise, he deserves the early congrats that he's getting thus far this season.

But he doesn't deserve for the case to be closed with 9 games left to play and a flurry of postseason games awaiting. So...like I said "I'll calmly wait and see which KJ is the real KJ: Growing and Learning KJ or Curb Kicked KJ." He has just as big of a chance at regression as he does progression right now.

Connor Barwin broke out of a 6-game funk vs. Ravens in our last game, but I won't sit here and say "Gee, you know what? I was too harsh on him those first 6 games of this season. He's baaaaack!" LOL.

I agree, but with a stipulation. Yes, Kareem's poor play early (emphasis on early) in his career deserved criticism. And he received it in spades. But people immediately labeled him as a bust, designating him as a wasted pick. After what? A season in a historically bad defense? Thrust into the starting CB spot where even most veterans would struggle?

Sure, let's criticize our players when they're playing poorly. Let's commend them when they're playing well (like Kareem is now). But after the way Kareem was dragged through the mud his first season or two, and the way public perception of him is STILL stained by the verbal abuse he took by Houston media and fans, he deserves some major props, and the knee-jerk fans who dismissed him SHOULD be eating some crow.

foo82
10-30-2012, 10:03 AM
No, he was growing rather slowly. He deserved the criticism he received.

Likewise, he deserves the early congrats that he's getting thus far this season.

But he doesn't deserve for the case to be closed with 9 games left to play and a flurry of postseason games awaiting. So...like I said "I'll calmly wait and see which KJ is the real KJ: Growing and Learning KJ or Curb Kicked KJ." He has just as big of a chance at regression as he does progression right now.

Connor Barwin broke out of a 6-game funk vs. Ravens in our last game, but I won't sit here and say "Gee, you know what? I was too harsh on him those first 6 games of this season. He's baaaaack!" LOL.

Growing slowly? How quickly do you expect a corner to learn his position?

GP
10-30-2012, 10:10 AM
I agree, but with a stipulation. Yes, Kareem's poor play early (emphasis on early) in his career deserved criticism. And he received it in spades. But people immediately labeled him as a bust, designating him as a wasted pick. After what? A season in a historically bad defense? Thrust into the starting CB spot where even most veterans would struggle?

Sure, let's criticize our players when they're playing poorly. Let's commend them when they're playing well (like Kareem is now). But after the way Kareem was dragged through the mud his first season or two, and the way public perception of him is STILL stained by the verbal abuse he took by Houston media and fans, he deserves some major props, and the knee-jerk fans who dismissed him SHOULD be eating some crow.

You sound like Dan Dierdorf's vilification of Texans fans and the city of Houston for how we "treated" poor Jacoby Jones.

Look, Kareem is a big boy. It doesn't matter if we dog on the guy. I would never boo the guy. I would never say he's flat out garbage. In fact, I wanted him to move to a nickel role if he couldn't hack it as a CB2 in the league. But hey, that might not be needed now. MAYBE.

Verbal abuse by Houston media and fans? Man, we're some of the most laid back fans in the league. In fact, we're not nearly as corrosive as the other teams out there. To say that Kareem is being bullied is just laughable. He got criticism when he was not playing well ("falling down" jokes, "turn your head around!" and many more) and he's gotten praise this season for having performed well. It's not easy being a starter in the NFL, and I don't think many people labeled him a complete and utter bust. Maybe a handful, but the majority of "haters" are just people who know he has the talent but wasn't putting it together fast enough.

In year 3, he has hit a stride that he needed to hit by this year. Most people agreed year 3 needed to be a consistently good year for him. Years 1 and 2 were rough, with the exception of the Ravens playoff game where I think KJ turned the corner out of nowhere. He was a lone bright spot that day.

GP
10-30-2012, 10:14 AM
Growing slowly? How quickly do you expect a corner to learn his position?

Oh, I guess he was a RB in college???

Look, Nick Saban even admitted--when KJ declared for the draft--that he wasn't as draft-ready as the other few 'Bama guys who were alongside KJ in the 2010 draft. A lot of people think Saban is a jerk, but he nailed his prediction/forewarning about KJ leaving early. He wasn't ready.

This is the NFL, it has the best of the best...and at this level a guy washes out faster than at any other level of football they've ever played. Don't hate me, or others, for having short patience. We waited 9 years to get last year's playoff season under our belt, and so the expectations get raised. Infinitely.

Had KJ waited until the draft of 2011, I think--personally--he would still be behind the eight ball this season and looking at a good season in 2013, some guys just take longer to get it together.

badboy
10-30-2012, 10:23 AM
I agree, but with a stipulation. Yes, Kareem's poor play early (emphasis on early) in his career deserved criticism. And he received it in spades. But people immediately labeled him as a bust, designating him as a wasted pick. After what? A season in a historically bad defense? Thrust into the starting CB spot where even most veterans would struggle?

Sure, let's criticize our players when they're playing poorly. Let's commend them when they're playing well (like Kareem is now). But after the way Kareem was dragged through the mud his first season or two, and the way public perception of him is STILL stained by the verbal abuse he took by Houston media and fans, he deserves some major props, and the knee-jerk fans who dismissed him SHOULD be eating some crow.

Growing slowly? How quickly do you expect a corner to learn his position?Come on guys, if you two have read the criticisms of KJ during his first two years you would understand why some of us are not too enthused with your apparent attempt to rewrite Kareem's history. Foo, KJ was said(but not his coach) to be ready for NFL coming from a "pro style" defense under a great coach. No one expected him to be Prime Time but we did not expect him to play so poorly for so long. He seemed to be in catch up mode most plays. Yeah some of that is on the coach we had then but much was on the player and imo the scout.

On Texans of 2012 a first round pick (Mercilus) can be eased in here and there. On the Texans of 2010, a first was expected to do more. That is supported by him starting that season. Another example was David Carr who came in with high expectation but not much surrounding him. I think most would agree he caught much more grief than KJ.

We who have criticised Jackson are very pleased with how he is now performing but we will be cautious for a bit.

buddyboy
10-30-2012, 10:30 AM
You sound like Dan Dierdorf's vilification of Texans fans and the city of Houston for how we "treated" poor Jacoby Jones.

Look, Kareem is a big boy. It doesn't matter if we dog on the guy. I would never boo the guy. I would never say he's flat out garbage. In fact, I wanted him to move to a nickel role if he couldn't hack it as a CB2 in the league. But hey, that might not be needed now. MAYBE.

Verbal abuse by Houston media and fans? Man, we're some of the most laid back fans in the league. In fact, we're not nearly as corrosive as the other teams out there. To say that Kareem is being bullied is just laughable. He got criticism when he was not playing well ("falling down" jokes, "turn your head around!" and many more) and he's gotten praise this season for having performed well. It's not easy being a starter in the NFL, and I don't think many people labeled him a complete and utter bust. Maybe a handful, but the majority of "haters" are just people who know he has the talent but wasn't putting it together fast enough.

In year 3, he has hit a stride that he needed to hit by this year. Most people agreed year 3 needed to be a consistently good year for him. Years 1 and 2 were rough, with the exception of the Ravens playoff game where I think KJ turned the corner out of nowhere. He was a lone bright spot that day.

I never said you, specifically, were guilty of the knee-jerk reactions towards Kareem. But I think the way that Kareem's playing RIGHT NOW and the way that fans (casual, not on this board (for the most part)) still perceive him shows how much Kareem was blamed for that bad defense.

Knowledgeable fans (and I consider you such) knew that Kareem had a long way to go, but he wasn't a bust...yet. But I'd be willing to bet that most casual Texans fans are unwilling to embrace the new Kareem as easily as they were able to embrace the falling down Kareem; they simply don't want to be wrong.

He's changed (from what we can see). I agree we cannot crown him yet. He's got to put together a good rest of the season, even a good next season before we can really start to see what he'll be for the rest of his career. It irritates me beyond all reason when a player in his first season is LABELED as a bust, especially when we're having this conversation now, three years later, how he can't be judged yet, he still has a lot to prove.

badboy
10-30-2012, 10:38 AM
I never said you, specifically, were guilty of the knee-jerk reactions towards Kareem. But I think the way that Kareem's playing RIGHT NOW and the way that fans (casual, not on this board (for the most part)) still perceive him shows how much Kareem was blamed for that bad defense.

Knowledgeable fans (and I consider you such) knew that Kareem had a long way to go, but he wasn't a bust...yet. But I'd be willing to bet that most casual Texans fans are unwilling to embrace the new Kareem as easily as they were able to embrace the falling down Kareem; they simply don't want to be wrong.He's changed (from what we can see). I agree we cannot crown him yet. He's got to put together a good rest of the season, even a good next season before we can really start to see what he'll be for the rest of his career. It irritates me beyond all reason when a player in his first season is LABELED as a bust, especially when we're having this conversation now, three years later, how he can't be judged yet, he still has a lot to prove.Agree with bolded. People love to see others like actors,the wealthy, athletes & politicians, etc. fail or look stupid. These are those who ride the band wagon. I just try to ignore them unless they say something I choose to react to; mostly I don't and if I do, I try to use humor or sarcasm that gets my point across without trashing the other person.

I suggest we be discerning but root for KJ.

GP
10-30-2012, 11:13 AM
I never said you, specifically, were guilty of the knee-jerk reactions towards Kareem. But I think the way that Kareem's playing RIGHT NOW and the way that fans (casual, not on this board (for the most part)) still perceive him shows how much Kareem was blamed for that bad defense.

Knowledgeable fans (and I consider you such) knew that Kareem had a long way to go, but he wasn't a bust...yet. But I'd be willing to bet that most casual Texans fans are unwilling to embrace the new Kareem as easily as they were able to embrace the falling down Kareem; they simply don't want to be wrong.

He's changed (from what we can see). I agree we cannot crown him yet. He's got to put together a good rest of the season, even a good next season before we can really start to see what he'll be for the rest of his career. It irritates me beyond all reason when a player in his first season is LABELED as a bust, especially when we're having this conversation now, three years later, how he can't be judged yet, he still has a lot to prove.

Good post.

I personally think the problem lies in a team trying to figure out if a guy just needs some time to get adjusted...or if they are never going to progress enough to maintain that spot.

For teams, it can be daunting to hang on...hang on.....haaaaang on...until that guy "gets it." At what point does a team cut bait and start over? Probably the most difficult task of every NFL team: Not just identifying the draft pick, but actually knowing if that draft pick is going to turn the corner or not. In that sense, it's unforgiving. Fans? Even MORE unforgiving!

It takes a few David Carrs, a few Travis Johnsons, a few Amobi Okoyes, Jacoby Joneses, for fans to get to the point where they don't want to see a 3-year project anymore. Same song, same dance, different year. Maybe that's wherein lies the fans' frustrations?

But if a KJ works out, if he sticks, then we'll be back to inherently being more patient with future projects. I think most fans know we were into KJ for the long haul no matter what. Letting Jason Allen head to the Bengals was the biggest tell-tale sign, obviously, so it's relieving to know that KJ is handling his side all by himself and not splitting time anymore. To me, maybe last year's half-and-half philosophy worked out better than most of us would be honest enough to admit to. I had my doubts he could carry his side all alone this year, but he has been fantastic thus far. The Ravens playoff game is where I think the light bulb went on in his head. I remember watching that game, and thinking "Even if we lose, we saw a KJ we wanted to see today. This is GOOD."

foo82
10-30-2012, 01:17 PM
Oh, I guess he was a RB in college???

Look, Nick Saban even admitted--when KJ declared for the draft--that he wasn't as draft-ready as the other few 'Bama guys who were alongside KJ in the 2010 draft. A lot of people think Saban is a jerk, but he nailed his prediction/forewarning about KJ leaving early. He wasn't ready.

This is the NFL, it has the best of the best...and at this level a guy washes out faster than at any other level of football they've ever played. Don't hate me, or others, for having short patience. We waited 9 years to get last year's playoff season under our belt, and so the expectations get raised. Infinitely.

Had KJ waited until the draft of 2011, I think--personally--he would still be behind the eight ball this season and looking at a good season in 2013, some guys just take longer to get it together.

And yet you ignored my question. How long do you think it will take a corner from college to fully transition into the NFL? Year 1, he was godawful and couldn't keep up. Year 2, he did a hell of a job shadowing his man, but just didn't make plays on the ball. Year 3, he is making more plays on the ball and performing very well through 7 weeks.

I'll ask again, how quickly do you expect most corners to progress and grow? You guys are holding an unrealistic expectation at one of the hardest position to play.

Corners get burned all the time, even good ones. The only problem is, whenever it happens to KJax, you are quicker to jump on him. If JJoe gets burned (and he does), it's usually forgotten.

I will guarantee this will happen. If Kjax plays outstanding probowl caliber football through 16 weeks, and then gives up a couple of big plays in the playoffs, we will never hear the end of it from you. You will proclaim he sucks and that he is a liability.

drs23
10-30-2012, 01:23 PM
And yet you ignored my question. How long do you think it will take a corner from college to fully transition into the NFL?

Not GP here but the consensus seems to be three years. Looks like KJ is right on track. Personally, I believe he will continue to improve. Perhaps to the point where QBs will fear throwing to either side.

ThaJokaa
10-30-2012, 01:34 PM
Not GP here but the consensus seems to be three years. Looks like KJ is right on track. Personally, I believe he will continue to improve. Perhaps to the point where QBs will fear throwing to either side.

Seems like they already do, they hardly throw to KJac at all anymore.

417Texan
10-30-2012, 04:09 PM
Kareem had talent and with right staff in place his skills and talent have matured and blossomed. Patience young jedi knights.

thunderkyss
10-31-2012, 03:48 PM
Growing slowly? How quickly do you expect a corner to learn his position?

I thought Patrick Peterson was still showing some growing pains Thursday night. DRC was still growing last Sunday as well.

thunderkyss
11-04-2012, 04:10 PM
I missed most of the first qtr & I admit Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't among the top QBs in the league.

But did he even thow to Kj's side at all today? I'm asking, simply because I didn't see any, not trying to say Kj is all that or anything, just wondering.

foo82
11-04-2012, 04:12 PM
well, you may not be saying that KJ is all that, but I cetainly am.
I don't think he was targeted
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk 2

gg no re
11-04-2012, 04:32 PM
I missed most of the first qtr & I admit Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't among the top QBs in the league.

But did he even thow to Kj's side at all today? I'm asking, simply because I didn't see any, not trying to say Kj is all that or anything, just wondering.
The only time I ever heard KJ mentioned today was when he chased Fitz out of bounds on a scramble towards the end of the game.

BigBull17
11-05-2012, 09:21 AM
Yeah, it's funny how so many of our fans said he didn't have the talent to play in this league. Or that he wasn't worthy of a first round pick.

I understand he played poorly, but all rookies do, especially starting at #1 or #2 CB.

Biggest factor is playing in a real scheme and not in Frank Bushes semi-retarded WTF front.

Texanmike02
11-05-2012, 11:58 AM
Rookie corners struggle. It is the way it is. Asking a rook to man up on the other team's #1 game in and game out is a mistake. IIRC Jackson was supposed to be the most "NFL ready" CB in the draft. It didn't matter. We didn't get enough pressure and we had terrible safety play that year. If you were down on KJ you had a right to be. The problem comes in if you blamed him for his lack of success. It is the coaches job to put a player in a position to succeed. Putting a rook as the #1 or #2 CB is not putting him in a position for success. You can argue that the situation warranted it, and that's fine but it was what it was. IIRC he was also being taught some weird side step when breaking into coverage.

Mike

DocBar
11-05-2012, 07:29 PM
Rookie corners struggle. It is the way it is. Asking a rook to man up on the other team's #1 game in and game out is a mistake. IIRC Jackson was supposed to be the most "NFL ready" CB in the draft. It didn't matter. We didn't get enough pressure and we had terrible safety play that year. If you were down on KJ you had a right to be. The problem comes in if you blamed him for his lack of success. It is the coaches job to put a player in a position to succeed. Putting a rook as the #1 or #2 CB is not putting him in a position for success. You can argue that the situation warranted it, and that's fine but it was what it was. IIRC he was also being taught some weird side step when breaking into coverage.

MikeI'm not going to discount the hard work that KJ has put in to improve as a player. I don't think the criticism of KJ was unfounded or unwarranted. I do think he's worked his ass off and been coached up/put into a position to succeed by Phillips. All the coaching in the world is useless unless the player puts in the work to put the coaching into effect. I'm proud of the young man for taking the necessary coaching and putting in the effort to make it show up on the field.

C Madd
11-12-2012, 08:17 PM
Kareem is continuing to impress me week in and week out. Whatever Wade Phillips and Kareem have done together, let's hope they keep it up!

76Texan
11-12-2012, 08:34 PM
Kareem is continuing to impress me week in and week out. Whatever Wade Phillips and Kareem have done together, let's hope they keep it up!

Hmm! That doesn't sound right! LOL!

IlliniJen
11-12-2012, 10:03 PM
Kareem has definitely been a pleasant surprise and many here have noted that it's a position you simply have to mature at to get better.

But has anyone mentioned David Gibbs maybe being detrimental to KJ in his rookie year?

thunderkyss
11-12-2012, 10:11 PM
But has anyone mentioned David Gibbs maybe being detrimental to KJ in his rookie year?

We mentioned that at the time, when they were talking about shuffling technique & what not.

But it's rare for a rookie Corner to come into this league & set the world on fire, especially since the rules nowadays favor the WR. Some guys have done it, McCourty had a great rookie season.

But you start a rookie corner on a bad nfl defense & you're just asking for trouble.

I thought it was coach-speak when Kubiak would comment on Kareem's confidence, that he had a short memory & wasn't letting all the bad stuff & negative talk affect him. But watching him play now, with confidence, I don't think it was coach-speak at all. He's got to have it together between the ears, to play the way he's playing now.

JamesBill
11-13-2012, 12:18 AM
This is the craziest improvement I have seen in any NFL player, ever. No one needs to eat crow here because he was historically bad in his rookie year and still below average last year making big mistakes.

If a player makes a historically improbable improvement in his play, it takes crow off the menu. I am not taking anything away from how he is playing now, just saying don't forget how bad he was, even just last year.

IlliniJen
11-13-2012, 12:29 AM
This is the craziest improvement I have seen in any NFL player, ever. No one needs to eat crow here because he was historically bad in his rookie year and still below average last year making big mistakes.

If a player makes a historically improbable improvement in his play, it takes crow off the menu. I am not taking anything away from how he is playing now, just saying don't forget how bad he was, even just last year.

Only one player comes to mind: Drew Brees. He was hot garbage his first 3 or so years, and then the switch flipped on.

foo82
11-13-2012, 12:32 AM
This is the craziest improvement I have seen in any NFL player, ever. No one needs to eat crow here because he was historically bad in his rookie year and still below average last year making big mistakes.

If a player makes a historically improbable improvement in his play, it takes crow off the menu. I am not taking anything away from how he is playing now, just saying don't forget how bad he was, even just last year.

Bull****. Some of us had been defending KJAX for quite a while now. We few kept saying he did not look as bad as you guys had made him out to be, and that he was steadily progressing.

This is just another one of those "I don't want to admit I'm wrong" posts. There was no doubt in my mind that Kareem could turn it around by the third year.

Way to take the coward's way out. Man up. You were wrong.

THis wasn't a sudden transformation. THe progression he made game to game from his first game until now was pretty steady. He did not jump leaps and bounds all of a sudden for his third season.

His first 8 games, he was regularly getting burned and beaten. By the end of his rookie year, he was playing fairly decently (not great, but pretty serviceable).

By his second year, he worked on his big weakness, which was technique, and getting beat on deep routes. He stuck to his man on deep routes stride for stride, but did not make any play on the ball.

This year, he focused on making plays on the ball and turning around at the right moment.

He did what anyone should do. Focus on one weakness, and turn it into a strength. Once you have that down, you move on to the next weakness.

76Texan
11-13-2012, 12:33 AM
This is the craziest improvement I have seen in any NFL player, ever. No one needs to eat crow here because he was historically bad in his rookie year and still below average last year making big mistakes.

If a player makes a historically improbable improvement in his play, it takes crow off the menu. I am not taking anything away from how he is playing now, just saying don't forget how bad he was, even just last year.

Nah, as the famous EllisUnit was fond to say, "if a guy is bad to start with, he can never improve enough to worth a darn".

76Texan
11-13-2012, 12:46 AM
I wrote a long-A addendum to Fiddler's post but didn't really want to "rehash" so I put it off.

Guess I should have gone ahead with it, so here goes.

....

I have never liked the fact that they (the Texans) threw too much out there for the young guys to learn.

I had talked at length how the Pats used McCourty in the first half of his rookie season.
They played cover 2 for the most part and relied on the pass rush of the front four (or front three, depending).

As little as they blitzed, their front did an adequate job (they were as "efficient" as we were without as much blitzing.)

This allowed them to "almost always" have a safety over the top to help McCourty.
This in turn, gave McCourty the freedom to play aggressive without fear of getting burned deep whether in zone or in man under.

In the second half of the season, they gave McCourty more responsibilities and he looked bad.

On the other hand, I can guarantee with you that in the second half, KJax was already ahead of the learning curve.
Most of the bad plays occured in the first half of the season.


Which came back to how they threw KJax into the fire from the get-go.
(So much that Kubiak had to admit to some reporter at the 2011 combine that they put KJax in some bad situations.)

Not only did they install him as the #1 CB, they also left him on an island quite a bit.
And when he wasn't supposed to be on an island, his safety help failed him on many occasions.

I had also made comparison with Patrick Peterson who was a high draft choice for the Cardinals the following year (2011).
The Cards did put him in a tough situation just the same; however, his safety help was better than what KJax got.
Yet, he got burned even worse as ProFootballFocus charged him as the third guy on the list of "marked men" in 2011, giving up 869 yards on 67 receptions.
(McCourty was the second man on the list, giving up 1,004 yards on 62 receptions.)

Neither McCourty nor Peterson had to spend time learning "new" stuffs like the shuffle.

The learning curve between McCourty and KJax couldn't have been any more different.
It was like one guy was going to regular school, and the other was in advanced placement classes.

JamesBill
11-13-2012, 01:13 AM
Bull****. Some of us had been defending KJAX for quite a while now.

This is just another one of those "I don't want to admit I'm wrong" posts.

Way to take the coward's way out. Man up. You were wrong.

THis wasn't a sudden transformation. THe progression he made game to game from his first game until now was pretty steady. He did not jump leaps and bounds all of a sudden for his third season.

By his second year, he worked on his big weakness, which was technique, and getting beat on deep routes. He stuck to his man on deep routes stride for stride, but did not make any play on the ball.


I give your rant 2/5. Deduct points for misdirected rage and repeating what I said.

He went from historically bad to subpar to average to plus. I didn't say any different, and not sure why I am a coward. He in no way deserved to start his rookie year, and last year was still getting pulled off the field.

What was I wrong about? If you were defending him his rookie year, YOU were wrong. He sucked and was a huge part of us wasting a year of productive offense. Not his fault, but still a fact.

Nah, as the famous EllisUnit was fond to say, "if a guy is bad to start with, he can never improve enough to worth a darn".

Historically accurate, especially considering how bad #25 was initially.


Not only did they install him as the #1 CB, they also left him on an island quite a bit.
And when he wasn't supposed to be on an island, his safety help failed him on many occasions.


Well Glover was the #1, and Jackson could never play bump and run because he would just fall down after any contact. By this time his rookie year Jason Allen had arrived. Obviously poor coaching and technique, but still his production was baaaaaaaaad......

Only one player comes to mind: Drew Brees. He was hot garbage his first 3 or so years, and then the switch flipped on.

I would hear that argument, I don't think I agree but people probably rank Brees higher than I would today. Another point is QB is the hardest position to learn and big improvements are expected. Look how much better Schaub is.

76Texan
11-13-2012, 02:16 AM
Well Glover was the #1, and Jackson could never play bump and run because he would just fall down after any contact. By this time his rookie year Jason Allen had arrived. Obviously poor coaching and technique, but still his production was baaaaaaaaad......



I'm not sure I understand what you meant in reference to EllisUnit and historically accurate; so if you can make it a little clearer I would appreciate it.

On the part about Glover being #1, that was simply not true.

Like I've said many times before, I don't rely on memory.
I had done play by play break down of several games in 2010 and I had posted some during that season.

Now, I still have all the games; I just went through the first two games.
With the shortcut version (no commercial, no stoppage) you can go through the offense in about 15 minutes.

Against the Colts, KJax played LCB while McCain played RCB.
Quin played the nickel as the Colts were strictly a one-back offense.

Against the Skins, KJax was the true #1 CB and Quin was the #2.
The Skins was more of a 2-back offense.
With a single receiver on the field, it would be KJ in coverage.
With two receivers, when they lined up on the same side, KJ would be the outside CB with Quin as the inside CB.
Occasionally, when the Skins went with a one-back formation, Quin moved inside to nickel; KJax and McCain manned the outside.

That said, the part about how he would fall down after any contact can only be thought of as your relying too much on your memory.

In the off-season after that year, I had already pointed out that several Texans defenders fell down. Quin fell down as regularly as KJax. And if you pro-rate the numbers of snaps they were out there, there was no telling who fell down the most (it could have been McCain, it could have been Allen, it could have been Quin, it could have been KJax.)

The problem was many people concentrated solely on KJax so they turned a blind eye on the other DBs.
And many never conceded the fact that the safety play was so bad such that Wade let them go with very little to no care at all when he first joined the Texans.

JamesBill
11-13-2012, 03:05 AM
On the part about Glover being #1, that was simply not true.

Like I've said many times before, I don't rely on memory.
I had done play by play break down of several games in 2010 and I had posted some during that season.

Now, I still have all the games; I just went through the first two games.
With the shortcut version (no commercial, no stoppage) you can go through the offense in about 15 minutes.

Against the Colts, KJax played LCB while McCain played RCB.
Quin played the nickel as the Colts were strictly a one-back offense.

Against the Skins, KJax was the true #1 CB and Quin was the #2.
The Skins was more of a 2-back offense.
With a single receiver on the field, it would be KJ in coverage.
With two receivers, when they lined up on the same side, KJ would be the outside CB with Quin as the inside CB.
Occasionally, when the Skins went with a one-back formation, Quin moved inside to nickel; KJax and McCain manned the outside.


That is the first two games, his snap counts went down and roles changed during the season when he seemed to actually regress. Jason Allen
came in and McCain didn't even suit up late in the season.
After the first two games we were all mostly just pumped about Arian and Andre. We obviously were a BIT suspicious watching joey galloway run right past Jackson all day.

That said, the part about how he would fall down after any contact can only be thought of as your relying too much on your memory.
I said they couldn't play bump and run. He stopped falling down because the genius coaching staff "adjusted" by playing the corners 10-15 yards off the line to avoid those devastating deep balls which came after being run over or being run by. I think it became obvious you didn't have to knock him over to get by him so they stopped trying.



The problem was many people concentrated solely on KJax so they turned a blind eye on the other DBs.
And many never conceded the fact that the safety play was so bad such that Wade let them go with very little to no care at all when he first joined the Texans.

Glover was the best DB that year and the rest were all poor save Jason Allen, but #25 had the ability to make guys who never played in the NFL again look like superstars.

JamesBill
11-13-2012, 03:19 AM
I'm not sure I understand what you meant in reference to EllisUnit and historically accurate; so if you can make it a little clearer I would appreciate it.

That for the most part, the rule rings true. In life and in football, someone who starts off as bad as #25 does, very rarely makes these types of improvements.

Bull****. Some of us had been defending KJAX for quite a while now. We few kept saying he did not look as bad as you guys had made him out to be, and that he was steadily progressing.
Well you weren't here in 2010 (in this form) but I found this after the Texans slaughtered the Titans.

Hm. I keep thinking Kareem would make a good Safety. He doesn't react well with his back to the ball, but man can he tackle well.


No one has ever questioned his tackling ability, and his YAC allowed has always been good. A first round CB being converted to safety in his 2nd year is a big time bust though. So I am not sure how much you consider yourself having his back.

foo82
11-13-2012, 09:20 AM
No one has ever questioned his tackling ability, and his YAC allowed has always been good. A first round CB being converted to safety in his 2nd year is a big time bust though. So I am not sure how much you consider yourself having his back.

Saying he would make a good safety does not mean he is a bust as a CB. I'm simply commenting that he has the tools to be a good safety. He is both physical and a great tackler. I also did not say he 100% should be converted to safety, just that imo he would make a great safety.

Playoffs
11-13-2012, 12:24 PM
ProFootballFocus has a signature statistic they measure called Coverage snaps per reception. It is the amount of times a cornerback is the primary man in coverage relative to how many receptions he allows. Kareem Jackson (15.0) is rated 5th out of 73 CBs who have taken at least 50% of a team's snaps.

The Bears game was his highest coverage & overall ratings this year.

Kareem is rated 11th out of 106 CBs in coverage for CBs that took at least 25% of their team's snaps. Interesting that a couple of CBs many think will excel are at the bottom of the list: Patrick Robinson (32nd pick) 104th, Janoris Jenkins 106th (39th pick). It can take time for some guys to figure it out.

Also at the bottom of the coverage rating list is Dumbta Robinson, at 100/106.

buddyboy
11-13-2012, 01:03 PM
This is the craziest improvement I have seen in any NFL player, ever. No one needs to eat crow here because he was historically bad in his rookie year and still below average last year making big mistakes.

If a player makes a historically improbable improvement in his play, it takes crow off the menu. I am not taking anything away from how he is playing now, just saying don't forget how bad he was, even just last year.

Disagree.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that people need to come in and eat crow. I'm not, don't interpret this as such.

What I disagree with is that because of his play in his first year (FIRST. YEAR.), that somehow, people are/were justified in calling him a bust or saying he'd never amount to anything.

You said it yourself, based on his play, it looked that way, and that historically, it was unlikely to happen. And I agree. But that does NOT mean we should judge him as a player, or more specifically, label him as a bust after a year of play. Even two years of play.

Basic patience tells us to wait at least 3 years to make a decision on a player. Knee jerk, instant gratification fans tell us they can tell how good a player will be after their first year, their first game sometimes.

So no, you don't need to eat crow. It was unlikely. But don't justify people's villification of Kareem the historically bad CB on a historically bad defense (chicken or the egg, by the way?).

noxiousdog
11-13-2012, 03:45 PM
The Texans did Jackson no favors his rookie year. In addition to him being a rookie, the safety play was historically bad (even for us). I know there were many times that KJ looked awful but was supposed to be getting help that never arrived.

Texn4life
11-13-2012, 04:05 PM
Most people say when judging rookies that you need to give them 3 years before you can evaluate them. Kareem was terrible his first year and no one will argue that for the most part, but I thought because he was so bad his first year he got a bad rap in his second. He only had 1 flaw in his game at all last year and that was making plays on the ball.

Fast forward to year 3 and it seems like the game has slowed down so much for him now. He's playing much faster because his understanding has increased. Its been hammered home here, but I don't know many elite Corners in the game today that didn't have struggles early on. Just last year people were questioning whether Patrick Peterson was ever gonna be an elite corner. I've liked Kareem's game dating back to Alabama and thought his ceiling was much higher than Javier Arenas which is why he was drafted in front of him. Arenas was successful for KC early on because of the positions they put him in, but now KJax is the much better player because his talent is taking over. Its kind of why I wish Brandon Harris was getting some run now because I think year 3 could be good for him as well. Without experience though I don't know how much he can develop.

thunderkyss
11-13-2012, 05:47 PM
profootballfocus has a signature statistic they measure called coverage snaps per reception. It is the amount of times a cornerback is the primary man in coverage relative to how many receptions he allows. Kareem jackson (15.0) is rated 5th out of 73 cbs who have taken at least 50% of a team's snaps.

The bears game was his highest coverage & overall ratings this year.

Kareem is rated 11th out of 106 cbs in coverage for cbs that took at least 25% of their team's snaps. Interesting that a couple of cbs many think will excel are at the bottom of the list: Patrick robinson (32nd pick) 104th, janoris jenkins 106th (39th pick). It can take time for some guys to figure it out.

Also at the bottom of the coverage rating list is dumbta robinson, at 100/106.

msr

76Texan
11-13-2012, 06:15 PM
That for the most part, the rule rings true. In life and in football, someone who starts off as bad as #25 does, very rarely makes these types of improvements.


Or could it be that #25 was never bad to start with.

Think about that for a moment.

The Texans have finally been proven that they had been pretty good with their draft choice.

What is it that the Texans scouts and coaches saw in KJax when they drafted him?
A BAD player?
For them to go out and select a BAD player with their first round pick makes as much sense as... well, it doesn't any sense.

76Texan
11-13-2012, 06:38 PM
That is the first two games, his snap counts went down and roles changed during the season when he seemed to actually regress. Jason Allen
came in and McCain didn't even suit up late in the season.
After the first two games we were all mostly just pumped about Arian and Andre. We obviously were a BIT suspicious watching joey galloway run right past Jackson all day.
Now you done make me go back and watched another 6 or 7 games of the 2010 season, LOL!

I am sorry, but you rely on your memory too much.

First off, early in the seasons, once in a while, McCain would spell KJax in the line-up so he can have a breather. McManis also saw the field here and there. Quin played the most number of snaps.
That continued through the year.

What Allen did was to knock McCain down to a dime back, with McManis no longer playing. Quin was also able to take a breather now and then.
If KJax saw reduced playing time, it was minimal. It doesn't hurt a rookie a bit not to have to play the whole game late in the season.
I was in the group that would rather have a veteran in the line-up to start the season with for the same reason anyway.

Now I think you need to bring proof to back up your statement that he seemed to regress instead of just relying on your memory.

BTW, Galloway did not run past KJax but that one time when the Texans were either playing with 10 men on the field or Wilson simply dissapear. I had talked about this in length before. I went back and look at that play again several times.

Playing for an inside release, the CB has got to have deep safety help in the middle on the post route; there was none.

It was supposed to be zone under anyway. KJax was not on Galloway initially. He was on another receiver on the outside. When this guy when into motion to fake a reverse (he never went past the LOS), KJax didn't follow him; that was the first sign of zone coverage.

Secondly, with the Skins in 21 personnel, both receivers were on KJax side, but there was no other CB anywhere near him; that's the second sign of zone coverage.

Thirdly, the Texans were in their 4-3; Quin was on the other side, the strong side with the TE with Pollard behind to back him up; that's the third sign of zone coverage.

After that, KJax only gave up two more receptions, both were short routes under 10 yards.

After that, KJax only gave two short passes, both under 10 yards.
One was on a difficult to defend short fade; the other was in front of the short zone.

There was a Galloway break out that McNabb missed, but KJax was on the other side of the field. I won't bother go into detail who the other CB was and whatever happened on that play, but you can guess it: no safety in the middle either.:vincepalm:

I will get to the other points later.

JamesBill
11-13-2012, 09:55 PM
Or could it be that #25 was never bad to start with.

Think about that for a moment.


OK..........

Nope he sucked. Sorry.

Now I think you need to bring proof to back up your statement that he seemed to regress instead of just relying on your memory.
I will get to the other points later.

No thanks. I have all the games since 2009 recorded from NFL Rewind when I made the 2011 defense video. I just feel cutting it to "prove" Kareem Jackson was horrible is a massive waste of time. It will then either go to semantics of what does "bad" and "horrible" mean; or it will devolve into an argument of him not being the worst DB and how much he contributed to the "badness". I don't recall ever saying he would never improve, but do recall getting kicked in the nads every week by the atrocious defensive failures and deep balls.

I guess this might seem close minded, and I'm not taking a shot at you AT ALL, I just am not a huge fan of long involved internet discussions. Thus my 200 posts and low rep power LOL.

Rey
11-13-2012, 10:19 PM
I've gone over this before with 76....Kareem was not a good player his rookie year. He wasn't a great player last year either. Bad players around him and poor coaching were a part of his bad play, but he was not out there playing well but made to look bad because of the players around him. He is an improved player...period....

Now myers is a guy that I believe took too much heat. He had some bad plays, but overall he's been solid since he got here.

Maddict5
11-14-2012, 09:38 AM
I've gone over this before with 76....Kareem was not a good player his rookie year. He wasn't a great player last year either. Bad players around him and poor coaching were a part of his bad play, but he was not out there playing well but made to look bad because of the players around him. He is an improved player...period....

Now myers is a guy that I believe took too much heat. He had some bad plays, but overall he's been solid since he got here.

if your definition of solid is top 5 center for the majority of the time he's been here

76Texan
11-14-2012, 10:02 AM
OK..........

Nope he sucked. Sorry.



No thanks. I have all the games since 2009 recorded from NFL Rewind when I made the 2011 defense video. I just feel cutting it to "prove" Kareem Jackson was horrible is a massive waste of time. It will then either go to semantics of what does "bad" and "horrible" mean; or it will devolve into an argument of him not being the worst DB and how much he contributed to the "badness". I don't recall ever saying he would never improve, but do recall getting kicked in the nads every week by the atrocious defensive failures and deep balls.

I guess this might seem close minded, and I'm not taking a shot at you AT ALL, I just am not a huge fan of long involved internet discussions. Thus my 200 posts and low rep power LOL.
OK, so here's the play:


http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/62%20yd%20pass%20to%20Galloway/111/Line-up.jpg

Moss to be in motion from right to left

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/62%20yd%20pass%20to%20Galloway/111/Motion.jpg

The whole sequence is here:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/62%20yd%20pass%20to%20Galloway/111/

Several different angles are here:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/62%20yd%20pass%20to%20Galloway/

Now you and Rey tell me where Wilson is?
The closest guys to KJax were the ref and Pollard (who was some 9-10 yards away as the ball arrived):
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/62%20yd%20pass%20to%20Galloway/111/vlcsnap-5599895.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/62%20yd%20pass%20to%20Galloway/111/vlcsnap-5599906.jpg

If Wilson was back there like any FS should have been, that ball would have never been thrown. Even if McNabb decided to force the ball in there, it would have been broken up by the FS (don't you think Manning or Quin would have done that?)

For JamesBill, if you claim that Galloway was running past KJax ALL DAY, I hate to say it, but the claim is not valid.

And for Rey, who "decided" that KJax still had to make that play somehow no matter that it was zone coverage, and that this was a bad play by KJax, I have to disagree.

Just because the guy was put in a bad situation doesn't mean that he made a bad play. In fact, he did well enough to make that tackle to help minimize the damage. Honestly, that's really all you can ask for from a CB in such a circumstance.

steelbtexan
11-14-2012, 10:47 AM
I'm glad KJ's improved. In Wade I trust.

Perki Perk is serving my crow in a broth with a little salt and pepper.

KJ improved some last yr but not enough to keep from having to split snaps with Jason Allen. Wade had faith that KJ would continue his growth pattern. Wade was correct, thank god Wade is on this coaching staff. He knows talent and how to get the best out of the talent he has.

76Texan
11-14-2012, 12:17 PM
I said they couldn't play bump and run. He stopped falling down because the genius coaching staff "adjusted" by playing the corners 10-15 yards off the line to avoid those devastating deep balls which came after being run over or being run by. I think it became obvious you didn't have to knock him over to get by him so they stopped trying.




Glover was the best DB that year and the rest were all poor save Jason Allen, but #25 had the ability to make guys who never played in the NFL again look like superstars.I disagree with these statements as well.

The Texans still played bump and run as well as press coverage thoughout the year. The times the CBs had a 5-10 yard cushion (not the exaggerated 10-15 as "claimed" occured since day one when the Texans had them playing the shuffle technique; that's how any team would do with that same technique.
A good number of times, they would drop back into cover 3; that's why we see a lot of open space between our CBs and the opponents' receivers.

If you like to think that Quin was our best CB, check this out:
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/05/20/cornerbacks-cover-snaps-count/

And that was with him being saved on numerous occasions by one of his teammates or with the QB missing the receivers.

The same goes for Allen.
Here are a bunch of time when Allen fell down for the Dolphins, and this doesn't not include the times he fell down when he was with the Texans in 2010.

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Jason%20Allen/

76Texan
11-14-2012, 12:39 PM
And here was the rest of KJ's performance in the Skins game, which we won 30-27.

On the first drive KJax read the screen pass to Moss well to stop him for no gain on third and nine at the Texans 23, limiting the Skins to a FG.

The Skins then have the ball at the Texans 42.
They threw a pass to a wide open Cooley who advanced to the Texans 9.
On second and goal, KJax set the edge, turned the runner inside to help stop him cold for no gain to force third and a long nine.
An incomplete pass on third down once again forced the Skins to kick a FG.
KJax played a part in this stop.

Both stops were important since the Texans ended up winning 30-27.

In the second quarter, the Skins scored a TD after that long bom to Galloway.
A 10yd fade route allowed by KJ to Galloway was after the long bomb. (He was right there, but couldn't jar the ball out of Galloway's hands.

On the Skins fourth drive, KJax broke up a pass to Galloway on third and 3 to stop the drive, forcing the Skins to punt.

On the next drive, McNabb attempted another deep pass similar to the one to Cooley early in the game, this time to the FB Sellers.
KJax was running with his receiver on a post route; he broke off his man quickly and came back to the sideline ready to break off the pass; McNabb overthrew Seller, however.
They would try it again on the next play to the same side, this time to the TE Davis.
Wilson was blown off by the FB Sellers; once again, KJax broke off his man on a post route to come back to the sideline to cut down Davis at the one.
Too bad, the Skins went on to score a TD.
Still, KJax did everything he could to make it hard for the opponent.

In the fourth quarter, on another third and goal, KJax jumped on his receiver quickly on a quick out route.
With the other receiver bracketed by McCain and Pollard, McNabb had to go to his third read, giving Wilson time to read and break up the pass in the middle.
The Texans blocked the FG attempt which was critical.

In OT, KJax had good coverage on his man, McNabb looked that way, but decided not to pull the trigger; Mario and Okoye came in to combine for a sack.

KJax also made a few more tackles or assists in run support.

If only there was a FS on that long pass to Galloway, one would have to conclude that KJax had a very solid game. He only allowed another 7yd catch in front of the short zone, like I had mentioned in a previous post.

He also had a very solid game the week before against the Colts (week 1).
Nobody could say that Manning picked on the rookie in his first NFL game.
In fact, KJax also had a solid game against Indy the second time around (Week 7).

foo82
11-14-2012, 01:38 PM
I counter your detailed arguments with my vague memories of him slipping and the media/MB fueling my arguments that Kareem sucks.

thunderkyss
11-14-2012, 02:47 PM
I counter your detailed arguments with my vague memories of him slipping and the media/MB fueling my arguments that Kareem sucks.

Kinda like Romo. It only takes one "awe-shucks" to wipe away a game full of "attaboys".

noxiousdog
11-14-2012, 03:06 PM
I counter your detailed arguments with my vague memories of him slipping and the media/MB fueling my arguments that Kareem sucks.

Nice!

JamesBill
11-14-2012, 04:11 PM
I counter your detailed arguments with my vague memories of him slipping and the media/MB fueling my arguments that Kareem sucks.

Do you think Ben Tate would make a good special teams player?

The Pencil Neck
11-14-2012, 04:58 PM
Do you think Ben Tate would make a good special teams player?

unsubscribe.

76Texan
11-14-2012, 06:22 PM
During the offseason when we hired Wade, I talked about the 2-receiver route that plagued the Texans defense in 2010 and put KJax in a hole on 4 long passes.

It involved a post route and a crossing route.

I mentioned one way to combat it is to have the offside CB to take over the post while the FS or the onside CB taking on the crossing route.

The diagram that I showed was as followed:

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/2003Falconspdf-AdobeReader.jpg

Here it was in action in 2011 against the Falcons.
Without this scheme, the onside CB (JJo) would have been toast.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011%20Week%2013%20vs%20Falcons/KJ%20INT/111/LINE-UP.jpg

KJax was the offside CB; he took over the post and came up with an INT against Rod White.

The whole sequence can be found here:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011%20Week%2013%20vs%20Falcons/KJ%20INT/111/

End zone view:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011%20Week%2013%20vs%20Falcons/KJ%20INT/222/

beerlover
11-19-2012, 10:23 AM
just curious what this stat is now?

thunderkyss
11-19-2012, 10:27 AM
I'll admit he had a bad game yesterday. The slip & fall allowing Blackmon's big run to the non-commital Dobbins for a TD... that was bad.

But.... Blackmon had a big day against our secondary period.

Still, does not excuse the game Kj had.

76Texan
11-19-2012, 10:36 AM
I'll admit he had a bad game yesterday. The slip & fall allowing Blackmon's big run to the non-commital Dobbins for a TD... that was bad.

But.... Blackmon had a big day against our secondary period.

Still, does not excuse the game Kj had.

That was a rare mis-tackle there, but shouldn't have been a TD.

The long pass play, I still think it was a bad coverage scheme.
One safety (Manning I think) should stayed deep with KJax playing for the inside release. Either that or Quin shoulda.

Nano was playing for the outside release on his man on the other side, pinning him to the side line. It doesn't make much sense to have Quin on a double team from the get-go.

It's really difficult for a CB in that situation. The percentage is stacked against him.

thunderkyss
11-19-2012, 10:39 AM
That was a rare mis-tackle there, but shouldn't have been a TD.

I also think something else was going on right there. McCain came running in before the snap, after the play had been called by the defense & everybody was getting set. You could see the Texans were a little confused about what they were supposed to do pre-snap.

steelbtexan
11-19-2012, 11:09 AM
KJ regressed into the KJ of old yesterday. He was just plain bad. Give him a few props then watch him stink it up.

I think the only way to get KJ to play well is for me to dog him. LOL I'm sure 76 will find a way to make KJ's performance yesterday fall on somebody elses shoulders. Here come the screen shots.

ThaJokaa
11-19-2012, 11:17 AM
He played a decent game, saved one TD, slipped and missed a tackle. Almost had an INT, and it looked like they played zone alot

76Texan
11-19-2012, 11:19 AM
I also think something else was going on right there. McCain came running in before the snap, after the play had been called by the defense & everybody was getting set. You could see the Texans were a little confused about what they were supposed to do pre-snap.

KJ regressed into the KJ of old yesterday. He was just plain bad. Give him a few props then watch him stink it up.

I think the only way to get KJ to play well is for me to dog him. LOL I'm sure 76 will find a way to make KJ's performance yesterday fall on somebody elses shoulders. Here come the screen shots.
What I can decipher from the Texans' quotes is that Kubiak said there was some mis-assignment in the first half while JJo said that there was a wrong coverage.

I know some people like steelb most probably will disregard those statements. They feel better with words like "suck" and "regression". :)

dalemurphy
11-19-2012, 12:01 PM
KJ regressed into the KJ of old yesterday. He was just plain bad. Give him a few props then watch him stink it up.

I think the only way to get KJ to play well is for me to dog him. LOL I'm sure 76 will find a way to make KJ's performance yesterday fall on somebody elses shoulders. Here come the screen shots.

Yesterday was an example of D. Manning doing his best Bernard Pollard imitation. If I were to blame one player for yesterday's sloppy performance, it would be Manning. He was out of position in Cover 2 at least twice for huge plays. He missed a couple tackles using very poor form... His head was not in the game. Not a coincidence, that KJ looked like he did in 2010... because our safety play looked like it did in 2010 as well.

76Texan
11-19-2012, 12:07 PM
Yesterday was an example of D. Manning doing his best Bernard Pollard imitation. If I were to blame one player for yesterday's sloppy performance, it would be Manning. He was out of position in Cover 2 at least twice for huge plays. He missed a couple tackles using very poor form... His head was not in the game. Not a coincidence, that KJ looked like he did in 2010... because our safety play looked like it did in 2010 as well.

Why some folks forget that this is a team game, I'll never know.

Mr teX
11-19-2012, 12:18 PM
Yesterday was an example of D. Manning doing his best Bernard Pollard imitation. If I were to blame one player for yesterday's sloppy performance, it would be Manning. He was out of position in Cover 2 at least twice for huge plays. He missed a couple tackles using very poor form... His head was not in the game. Not a coincidence, that KJ looked like he did in 2010... because our safety play looked like it did in 2010 as well.

While this is true...that Cecil Shorts TD is all on KJ. The team as whole just didn't show up yesterday. Obviously there was some hangover from the Chi game & they were clearly looking past Jax to the holidays and the DET game. You're not gonna show up with your A game every game in the season.

The key is how you deal with it during and going forward.

thunderkyss
11-19-2012, 12:34 PM
The team as whole just didn't show up yesterday.

I just didn't get that at all. The Jags simply looked better than a 1-8 team to me. We made a few mistakes, but no more than we always do. We aren't perfect, no NFL team is.

I think Jacksonville's best game was better than we anticipated & it took us a little while to figure it out. They've got their backs against the wall & played all out, doing things you wouldn't expect someone to do on 2nd & 4 or 1st & 10.

They were desperate & they played like it.

EllisUnit
11-19-2012, 12:35 PM
Can't always blame the safties when a CB has a bad day, deja vu all over again with this kinda talk

dalemurphy
11-19-2012, 12:40 PM
Can't always blame the safties when a CB has a bad day, deja vu all over again with this kinda talk

But you can blame the safeties when the coverage is a Cover 2 and the safety is nowhere to be found on a wide receiver post.

I love our safeties. However, it seemed pretty clear that Manning, in particular, had a very bad game yesterday. Fine with me. It happens. He probably emotionally crashed after the Chicago game and had a hard time getting up for this game.

badboy
11-19-2012, 12:44 PM
Just curious as to why Joseph was not switched to Blackmon after say the first 100yds?

thunderkyss
11-19-2012, 12:51 PM
Just curious as to why Joseph was not switched to Blackmon after say the first 100yds?

Kareem wasn't exclusively on Blackmon if that's what you're insinuating. Watch the highlights, Blackmon had his way with our secondary... bar none.

But a big problem here, I think, coming into the game nobody, not even the Jags, knew who their #1 WR was.

2012Champs
11-19-2012, 12:57 PM
On one of the plays yesterday where he was beat he should have had help on the inside the the safety moved up and opened a huge hole

76Texan
11-19-2012, 01:06 PM
While this is true...that Cecil Shorts TD is all on KJ. The team as whole just didn't show up yesterday. Obviously there was some hangover from the Chi game & they were clearly looking past Jax to the holidays and the DET game. You're not gonna show up with your A game every game in the season.

The key is how you deal with it during and going forward.

I've been talking about conspiracy.
That play looks like one to me.

The Jags were in single-back set, but we were in base defense.
Not only that, we took out a safety (we had KJ, JJo, McCain, and one safety in there I believe.) That is weird.

We went with zero coverage, but our lone safety played a little deep (away from KJ).
If the Jags wanted an easy target (wide open), they would find it on that side.
That's even weider.

Then look at the throwing lane on KJ's side; it was wide open even though we rushed six.
When you rush six, there should not be an open throwing lane like that; no way, no how!

Yupe, KJax missed that tackle big time (I even said so in the game thread), but Dobbins (who was originally on the RB, but dropped back when this guy stayed to block) was even worse on his angle. If he only had a similar attempt as KJ, I don't think it's a TD as McCain, Mercilus, and KJ would have gotten back.

And last of all, when Dobbins dropped back, he showed more interest in helping McCain on the other side.

Whatever that was, it's a very strange coverage that lends itself to disaster.

thunderkyss
11-19-2012, 01:06 PM
I think our safeties could have played better. Including Quin. But Kj is a grown up now & I think it's absolutely fair to get on him for his bad game. Maybe a safety should have been back there to stop the TD, but the Kj I know usually doesn't miss that tackle.

He got his hands on one ball. If he'd have pulled that one in, I think we could forgive him for his poor showing. Everybody get's beat every now & then. But you've got to make a play every now & then as well.

He didn't & it's about time we should be expecting him to.

76Texan
11-19-2012, 01:07 PM
On one of the plays yesterday where he was beat he should have had help on the inside the the safety moved up and opened a huge hole

Yea, we talked about that one, too.

76Texan
11-19-2012, 01:18 PM
I think our safeties could have played better. Including Quin. But Kj is a grown up now & I think it's absolutely fair to get on him for his bad game. Maybe a safety should have been back there to stop the TD, but the Kj I know usually doesn't miss that tackle.

He got his hands on one ball. If he'd have pulled that one in, I think we could forgive him for his poor showing. Everybody get's beat every now & then. But you've got to make a play every now & then as well.

He didn't & it's about time we should be expecting him to.

Most of the guys on defense had a "poor" day, some less, some worse.

I don't think KJax was among the worst ones out there, that's all.

He did enough not to allow a TD by Blackmon in the endzone.
He didn't let Blakmon gather both hands on the football.
It was touchy feely, sure, but it was tightly contested, unlike some other passes.

badboy
11-19-2012, 01:18 PM
Kareem wasn't exclusively on Blackmon if that's what you're insinuating. Watch the highlights, Blackmon had his way with our secondary... bar none.

But a big problem here, I think, coming into the game nobody, not even the Jags, knew who their #1 WR was.Wasn't insinuating anything asking outright; why was not our best corner mirroring the guy that was having a record day against us? It became obvious rather quickly who Jag's #1 WR was. I don't recall Joseph on Blackmon one play.

GP
11-19-2012, 01:26 PM
CBs will always have a harder time against larger WRs.

Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, and Vincent Jackson are three guys who come to mind...a CB is just already out-manned against those types of WRs, especially if those types of WRs know how to use their size to their advantage.

I mean, seriously...if a guy like Blackmon gets hot and the plays are called to get him into open space, hardly anybody is going to be able to cover him.

If anything, it looked like maybe the Jags were using a spread offense style...certain receivers run certain routes and a big stud like Blackmon is finding the open spaces in the field that result from other WRs clearing out space.

We had no answer for Blackmon, except for either Henne being off on a throw or Blackmon dropping a pass, or if we had tight enough coverage and other elements (pressure by DL) helped the CBs out.

To me, Danieal Manning has been playing less pass coverage and more run support in the past few games. He's trying to lay too many hits, whereas I remember him breaking up passes and making interceptions earlier in the season and last season too. The coverage all the way around hasn't been sharp since the Ravens game, and heck...we were getting huge pressure on Flacco that game (so what does that say? yeah, that's right: DL pressure is critical).

76Texan
11-19-2012, 01:29 PM
Now the play that really got to me is the one on third and 21 in the fourth quarter.

We actually had a LB helping out McCain initially against Blackmon in the slot.
Then both safeties converged (Manning and Demps).

Blackmon caught the ball in triple coverage and came out with an 80yd TD (granted the Jaguars blocked in the back downfield).

One guy defended by four and we couldn't get the job done; in the meantime, we want KJax to go man-on-man with Blackmon all day and win! :thinking:

GP
11-19-2012, 01:34 PM
Now the play that really got to me is the one on third and 21 in the fourth quarter.

We actually had a LB helping out McCain initially against Blackmon in the slot.
Then both safeties converged (Manning and Demps).

Blackmon caught the ball in triple coverage and came out with an 80yd TD (granted the Jaguars blocked in the back downfield).

One guy defended by four and we couldn't get the job done; in the meantime, we want KJax to go man-on-man with Blackmon all day and win! :thinking:

Honestly, it looked like NONE of the secondary wanted to do much of anything that required high effort yesterday.

I think the Bears game, coupled with the upcoming Lions game, it was just a situation of the secondary (and the entire team, actually) sort of taking a break.

That's why I have said that THIS season, Matt Schaub is playing Super Bowl caliber football. Out of every player on the team, Schaub, to me, looks like a guy who wants and expects great things on every single snap of every single game. That foot injury, IMO, made him sit up and pay attention--He knows he's going to have to be the consummate leader every game.

Everyone else, though they might have had a shining moment yesterday every now and then, looked lethargic and spent. Like they were just ready to be done with it. Like "Why is Matt Schaub forcing us to keep up with him??? %$#@!"

dream_team
11-19-2012, 01:35 PM
Now the play that really got to me is the one on third and 21 in the fourth quarter.

We actually had a LB helping out McCain initially against Blackmon in the slot.
Then both safeties converged (Manning and Demps).

Blackmon caught the ball in triple coverage and came out with an 80yd TD (granted the Jaguars blocked in the back downfield).

One guy defended by four and we couldn't get the job done; in the meantime, we want KJax to go man-on-man with Blackmon all day and win! :thinking:

I can rep you all day 76!

The guys I'm really pissed off at are Conner & Brooks. When Watt gets doubled (which seems like every play now), one of those guys MUST beat their guy one-one. The lack of pressure by the front 4 is causing Wade to dial up blitzes I don't think he wants to do.

thunderkyss
11-19-2012, 01:38 PM
The guys I'm really pissed off at are Conner & Brooks. When Watt gets doubled (which seems like every play now), one of those guys MUST beat their guy one-one. The lack of pressure by the front 4 is causing Wade to dial up blitzes I don't think he wants to do.

& it's not just Watt. I give him a hard time, but the Ninja draws a double team on every play, beating them from time to time & we're getting nothing out of Reed & Barwin.

Mr teX
11-19-2012, 01:38 PM
I just didn't get that at all. The Jags simply looked better than a 1-8 team to me. We made a few mistakes, but no more than we always do. We aren't perfect, no NFL team is.

I think Jacksonville's best game was better than we anticipated & it took us a little while to figure it out. They've got their backs against the wall & played all out, doing things you wouldn't expect someone to do on 2nd & 4 or 1st & 10.

They were desperate & they played like it.

Desperate for what though? They're not going to the playoffs... even if they do beat us.

All season this team has played alot closer to how we played against Baltimore than how we played yesterday. I'll give Jax some of the credit..i'm sure they gave us some looks that we hadn't really seen all year & teams seem to have finally locked in on JJ Watt b/c he's not making nearly as many plays as he did earlier in the season.

But i think it's clear we had a let down game after the big win in Chi.

Mr teX
11-19-2012, 01:57 PM
I can rep you all day 76!

The guys I'm really pissed off at are Conner & Brooks. When Watt gets doubled (which seems like every play now), one of those guys MUST beat their guy one-one. The lack of pressure by the front 4 is causing Wade to dial up blitzes I don't think he wants to do.

Yeah, Barwin's got "mario" syndrome; rather than trying to rush the passer in such a way that the pocket collapses, he gets too caught up in trying to use his speed to much & gets run out of the play.

Reed has really disappointed me this year. I thought he'd step up & eventually be the guy on the outside for us but it hasn't happened. It looks like he just doesn't have the strength to hold up as soon as a tackle gets their hands on him. He also takes a ton of false steps off the snap...& i ultimately think this hurts his speed rush.

rolyat93
11-19-2012, 02:11 PM
I think yesterday was a positive sign, he struggled but he also continued to play. He got beat but after getting beat he almost caught an INT(a true INT, as in he read the route and jumped it.). Still don't understand why Mccain was on Blackmon after he'd already been killing us.

GP
11-19-2012, 02:14 PM
Desperate for what though? They're not going to the playoffs... even if they do beat us.

All season this team has played alot closer to how we played against Baltimore than how we played yesterday. I'll give Jax some of the credit..i'm sure they gave us some looks that we hadn't really seen all year & teams seem to have finally locked in on JJ Watt b/c he's not making nearly as many plays as he did earlier in the season.

But i think it's clear we had a let down game after the big win in Chi.

I am wondering if Watt's "swat" skills suffer versus taller QBs.

Henne, to me, looks to be much taller (or he at least looks like he stands taller during a throw) than other QBs we've faced. We also have to ponder whether teams might have already started to make their QBs practice throughout a week with throwing the ball at a higher arc, to avoid Watt's swat skills.

Then there's this: To me, it looked like the Jags, Henne in particular, started delivering the pass much quicker than normal. Whether that was a lot of 3-step drops, quick throws, whatever, a pass getting out of the QBs hand VERY quickly is going to be harder for Watt to swat down.

The Jags, IMO, schemed their offense to take advantage of us. They have the blueprint of how to beat our defense: (1) Quick passing plays that stall the DL pass rush, or at least keep it away from the QB, and (2) Spread formation with the primary target being a HUGE wide receiver who finds open space wherever there is a void. Henne gets a lot of credit because he was doing what Gabbert couldn't: Knowing where to go and to WHOM he should go to, right from the snap. I wouldn't mind having that guy as my QB2, tbh.

I also think this defense is dog tired from playing the Bears on MNF, and then the Jags (which was an all-out foot race all game long)...then they gonna' have to go to Detroit on a very short week. We're going to be lucky if our guys don't come down with flu or other fatigue-related illnesses after the Lions game. That's a lot of exertion on their bodies in a short amount of time.

Mr teX
11-19-2012, 02:48 PM
I am wondering if Watt's "swat" skills suffer versus taller QBs.

Henne, to me, looks to be much taller (or he at least looks like he stands taller during a throw) than other QBs we've faced. We also have to ponder whether teams might have already started to make their QBs practice throughout a week with throwing the ball at a higher arc, to avoid Watt's swat skills.

Then there's this: To me, it looked like the Jags, Henne in particular, started delivering the pass much quicker than normal. Whether that was a lot of 3-step drops, quick throws, whatever, a pass getting out of the QBs hand VERY quickly is going to be harder for Watt to swat down.

The Jags, IMO, schemed their offense to take advantage of us. They have the blueprint of how to beat our defense: (1) Quick passing plays that stall the DL pass rush, or at least keep it away from the QB, and (2) Spread formation with the primary target being a HUGE wide receiver who finds open space wherever there is a void. Henne gets a lot of credit because he was doing what Gabbert couldn't: Knowing where to go and to WHOM he should go to, right from the snap. I wouldn't mind having that guy as my QB2, tbh.

I also think this defense is dog tired from playing the Bears on MNF, and then the Jags (which was an all-out foot race all game long)...then they gonna' have to go to Detroit on a very short week. We're going to be lucky if our guys don't come down with flu or other fatigue-related illnesses after the Lions game. That's a lot of exertion on their bodies in a short amount of time.

Well, what i'll say is that all of these guys seem to forget at times that swatting the ball down is something this defense does very well. I'm basing that mainly on how little of it was done over the last few games against Chi & Jax....until the 4th qtr/OT of yesterday's game that is. around that time, all of a sudden these guys start swatting/tipping balls like crazy! I want to say that Barwin, Smith & Watt tipped or swatted a pass all on the same series/drive. If someone has the game DVR'd, someone look that up for me.

GP
11-19-2012, 03:09 PM
Well, what i'll say is that all of these guys seem to forget at times that swatting the ball down is something this defense does very well. I'm basing that mainly on how little of it was done over the last few games against Chi & Jax....until the 4th qtr/OT of yesterday's game that is. around that time, all of a sudden these guys start swatting/tipping balls like crazy! I want to say that Barwin, Smith & Watt tipped or swatted a pass all on the same series/drive. If someone has the game DVR'd, someone look that up for me.

Henne did a great job of avoiding the swat all game long. I remember mayyyybe 1 or 2 swats, with Antonio Smith providing one of those late in the game just after he had drawn a 15-yard penalty the play before (for hands to the face of Henne).

The other tip, IIRC, was Barwin (and it was tipped just enough to get it away from the WR's route).

ChampionTexan
11-19-2012, 03:22 PM
Henne did a great job of avoiding the swat all game long. I remember mayyyybe 1 or 2 swats, with Antonio Smith providing one of those late in the game just after he had drawn a 15-yard penalty the play before (for hands to the face of Henne).

The other tip, IIRC, was Barwin (and it was tipped just enough to get it away from the WR's route).

Watt had one tip, and one sack.

EllisUnit
11-19-2012, 08:09 PM
But you can blame the safeties when the coverage is a Cover 2 and the safety is nowhere to be found on a wide receiver post.

I love our safeties. However, it seemed pretty clear that Manning, in particular, had a very bad game yesterday. Fine with me. It happens. He probably emotionally crashed after the Chicago game and had a hard time getting up for this game.

Well if you remember the 2010 season the safties "only" played bad when giving help to KJ but not Glover. Its like they had a vendetta aginst him "according" to a FEW members on the board, no joke. Was the silliest excuse i ever heard.

KJ has had a damn good season, and i think he has improved a 100 times over and dont want anyone else out there besides KJ and JoJo BUT no more lame ass excuses whenever he does get beat on occasion.

DocBar
11-20-2012, 11:27 AM
KJ had a bad game. It happens. He's played well enough this season that I'm not going to bust his balls too badly. Let's just hope he uses that CB short memory and puts this behind him going into Detroit on a short week.

JJo has been short of spectacular in a few games this year, also.

76Texan
11-20-2012, 12:19 PM
Kubiak said it again.
"We had some assignment issues".

The mis-tackle was all on KJax, but I'm not gonna put the long pass on him.

Other guys gave up several big plays even when they had help.

KJax had one bad play, not one bad day.

thunderkyss
11-20-2012, 12:24 PM
KJax had one bad play, not one bad day.

I think there were 11+ guys playing on the defensive side of the ball that had a bad day. And a defensive coach to boot.

No shame.... it happens. Next...

dalemurphy
11-20-2012, 01:26 PM
Well if you remember the 2010 season the safties "only" played bad when giving help to KJ but not Glover. Its like they had a vendetta aginst him "according" to a FEW members on the board, no joke. Was the silliest excuse i ever heard.

KJ has had a damn good season, and i think he has improved a 100 times over and dont want anyone else out there besides KJ and JoJo BUT no more lame ass excuses whenever he does get beat on occasion.

That simply isn't true. The defense was breaking records for yards passing allowed. Despite your feelings about KJ, those kind of stats are not due to a single player.

DocBar
11-20-2012, 01:41 PM
Kubiak said it again.
"We had some assignment issues".

The mis-tackle was all on KJax, but I'm not gonna put the long pass on him.

Other guys gave up several big plays even when they had help.

KJax had one bad play, not one bad day.I can agree with this. Other than a few big plays, the defense actually played well.

76Texan
11-20-2012, 02:32 PM
I can agree with this. Other than a few big plays, the defense actually played well.

Thank you Sir for having the good sense of weighing all the evidences before coming to a conclusion. :handshake:

noxiousdog
11-20-2012, 03:55 PM
I can agree with this. Other than a few big plays, the defense actually played well.

Henne was < 50% passing. The Jaguars pulled a lot of inside straights on Sunday.

EllisUnit
11-20-2012, 06:20 PM
That simply isn't true. The defense was breaking records for yards passing allowed. Despite your feelings about KJ, those kind of stats are not due to a single player.

My whole statment went way over ur head. "One" member on this board used to claim that safety help was better to Glover than it was to KJ and thats their excuse as to why KJ was beat so badly compared to Glover..... Now seems ridiculious to me that safties would just so happen to suck when giving KJ help and then seem to do so much better when helping Glover.


Yes that was really one of the excuses to why KJ struggled so much, that one plus about 200 other ones.

76Texan
11-20-2012, 06:33 PM
My whole statment went way over ur head. "One" member on this board used to claim that safety help was better to Glover than it was to KJ and thats their excuse as to why KJ was beat so badly compared to Glover..... Now seems ridiculious to me that safties would just so happen to suck when giving KJ help and then seem to do so much better when helping Glover.


Yes that was really one of the excuses to why KJ struggled so much, that one plus about 200 other ones.

Yes, safety help was kinder to Glover and Jason as compared to KJax.

I said that.

And that was why Allen was let go and Quin was moved to safety.
What part(s) don't you understand? :)P=

ObsiWan
11-20-2012, 06:36 PM
the spirit of
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/static/img/getty/headshot/F/A/G/FAG574023.jpg
still lives on this msg bd.
:D

76Texan
11-20-2012, 06:44 PM
the spirit of
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/static/img/getty/headshot/F/A/G/FAG574023.jpg
still lives on this msg bd.
:D

Why I've stated a zillion years ago that it was gonna be Chris Myers part two.
We've seen plenty of that vid how Myers was mauled and how he can't handle huge 34 NT, we would hear about how KJax falls down (and at times how he can't play bump and run against big receivers) just the same.

SAMURAITEXAN
11-20-2012, 06:46 PM
the spirit of
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/static/img/getty/headshot/F/A/G/FAG574023.jpg
still lives on this msg bd.
:D

Is that you Petey?:D

EllisUnit
11-20-2012, 06:47 PM
Yes, safety help was kinder to Glover and Jason as compared to KJax.

I said that.

And that was why Allen was let go and Quin was moved to safety.
What part(s) don't you understand? :)P=

Ummm ur saying Glover was moved to safety, and Allen let go because safety help was better to their side ? Ummm Glover still comes up and plays man a lot not to mention he was always on the opponents #1 WR not covering guys like the no name raiders player who had a career day against KJ.

Look i agree KJ has turned into one hell of a cover corner and usually one of the best tackling CBs in the league, BUT if he does get beat than lets just accept it for what it is. I have no doubt he will be back to this seasons KJ again on thanksgiving day.

417Texan
11-20-2012, 07:01 PM
Defense just had a letdown game after big win after the Bears. Yes it sucked but Texans pulled out a win and some games can be ugly for one side of the ball.

76Texan
11-20-2012, 07:04 PM
Ummm ur saying Glover was moved to safety, and Allen let go because safety help was better to their side ? Ummm Glover still comes up and plays man a lot not to mention he was always on the opponents #1 WR not covering guys like the no name raiders player who had a career day against KJ.

Look i agree KJ has turned into one hell of a cover corner and usually one of the best tackling CBs in the league, BUT if he does get beat than lets just accept it for what it is. I have no doubt he will be back to this seasons KJ again on thanksgiving day.

Look, I have no problem saying that KJax got beat soundly by a no-name (to most) WR from the Chargers on a double move (FYI, I already knew that the guy had that move and had talked about him in the draft section even though he went Undrafted.) You didn't know who he was but I did, OK?

As for the rest of your relying on memory, I have no comment.
I have already said many times that Quin saw a lot of action in the slot.
Your assertion that he's on the #1 receiver holds no ground.

EllisUnit
11-20-2012, 07:19 PM
Look, I have no problem saying that KJax got beat soundly by a no-name (to most) WR from the Chargers on a double move (FYI, I already knew that the guy had that move and had talked about him in the draft section even though he went Undrafted.) You didn't know who he was but I did, OK?

As for the rest of your relying on memory, I have no comment.
I have already said many times that Quin saw a lot of action in the slot.
Your assertion that he's on the #1 receiver holds no ground.

Just cause you knew who the WR was means squat, and the fact that i still dont know his name or what team he plays on makes it even worse. Who was on the opponents #1 WR most of the time then since Quin was "always" in the slot. AND it was more than one play KJ got beat against the no name WR

thunderkyss
11-20-2012, 07:23 PM
Yes, safety help was kinder to Glover and Jason as compared to KJax.

I said that.

And that was why Allen was let go and Quin was moved to safety.
What part(s) don't you understand? :)P=

Eugene Wilson was also let go as well as Bernard Pollard.

76Texan
11-20-2012, 07:25 PM
Just cause you knew who the WR was means squat, and the fact that i still dont know his name or what team he plays on makes it even worse. Who was on the opponents #1 WR most of the time then since Quin was "always" in the slot. AND it was more than one play KJ got beat against the no name WR

Dude, the reason I engage you is because I think you're a good fan of the Texans.
I highly suggest that you look up websites that have valuable informations about secondary play.
Enjoy the ride.

EllisUnit
11-20-2012, 07:37 PM
Dude, the reason I engage you is because I think you're a good fan of the Texans.
I highly suggest that you look up websites that have valuable informations about secondary play.
Enjoy the ride.

Just saying that from my "memory" Quin was on opponents #1 WR the majority of the time.

Either way I have eaten crow and said KJ has turned into a hell of a CB.

thunderkyss
11-20-2012, 07:38 PM
Just cause you knew who the WR was means squat, and the fact that i still dont know his name or what team he plays on makes it even worse. Who was on the opponents #1 WR most of the time then since Quin was "always" in the slot. AND it was more than one play KJ got beat against the no name WR


Bottom line, you thought Kj sucked, you probably even called him a bust. However, looking back, it appears you don't know what you're looking at. Yes, Kj got burned by a no named receiver a few times. Wade watched the same plays you did & came to the conclusion '76 did. Kj had the talent to be a starting cornerback in this league & Glover Quin did not.

Kj made some bad plays. You can't seem to separate a bad play from a bad player. '76 can.

Maybe you know all you need to know about football, but this, "Kj sucked" deal is getting tired. '76 puts a lot of time into his analsys, he provides commentary & still shots & his opinion of how a particular play breaks down. Back then, he left himself open to being wrong & asked for everyone's opinion on the matter.

But you (& a few others) attacked his analysis & never provided any evidence to support your opinions. "Kj fell down, he sucks." Arian falls down, a lot. Does he suck? KMart falls down, a lot. Does he suck?

You thought it was a knock on Kj that he shared time with Jason Allen, '76 said it was a development tool. A trick Wade borrowed from Kubiak. Who ever saw a CB getting relieved like that? Well, whoever saw a LT getting relieved the way Duane Brown did? Did Duane Brown suck?

Like I said, maybe you know everything you need to know... or maybe a little humility would go a long way.

EllisUnit
11-20-2012, 07:49 PM
Bottom line, you thought Kj sucked, you probably even called him a bust. However, looking back, it appears you don't know what you're looking at. Yes, Kj got burned by a no named receiver a few times. Wade watched the same plays you did & came to the conclusion '76 did. Kj had the talent to be a starting cornerback in this league & Glover Quin did not.

Kj made some bad plays. You can't seem to separate a bad play from a bad player. '76 can.

Maybe you know all you need to know about football, but this, "Kj sucked" deal is getting tired. '76 puts a lot of time into his analsys, he provides commentary & still shots & his opinion of how a particular play breaks down. Back then, he left himself open to being wrong & asked for everyone's opinion on the matter.

But you (& a few others) attacked his analysis & never provided any evidence to support your opinions. "Kj fell down, he sucks." Arian falls down, a lot. Does he suck? KMart falls down, a lot. Does he suck?

You thought it was a knock on Kj that he shared time with Jason Allen, '76 said it was a development tool. A trick Wade borrowed from Kubiak. Who ever saw a CB getting relieved like that? Well, whoever saw a LT getting relieved the way Duane Brown did? Did Duane Brown suck?

Like I said, maybe you know everything you need to know... or maybe a little humility would go a long way.

didnt read past the 2nd line of your dumb ass response. This was not between us, this was between me and 76 and stuff that was said a long time ago. As i have said i have eaten my crow so what did your rant accomplish, i still dont agree with 76, cause KJ DID suck back then AND NO it was'nt cause the damn safties were biased against him. He sucked and he has now improved so what it dont change the fact that he DID suck when i said he sucked.

thunderkyss
11-20-2012, 07:55 PM
didnt read past the 2nd line of your dumb ass response. This was not between us, this was between me and 76 and stuff that was said a long time ago. As i have said i have eaten my crow so what did your rant accomplish, i still dont agree with 76, cause KJ DID suck back then AND NO it was'nt cause the damn safties were biased against him. He sucked and he has now improved so what it dont change the fact that he DID suck when i said he sucked.

Wade saw what '76 did. He started Kj from day one. You thought Glover was better. Wade disagreed, moved him to safety. Kj made some bad plays, but he's & always has been a good player.

EllisUnit
11-20-2012, 07:58 PM
Wade saw what '76 did. He started him from day one. You thought Glover was better. Wade disagreed, moved him to safety. Kj made some bad plays, but he's & always has been a good player.

WHEN did i say Quin was better, please find where i said this, NO i said that he covered opponents #1 WR majority of the time. Big difference in my wording compared to yours. And the fact remains KJ sucked in the 2010 season, blame who are what you want, but in 20 years people wont remember who the D.C was or who the safties were they will remember who the CB got that got torched at a historic pace during the 2010 season.

76Texan
11-20-2012, 08:11 PM
WHEN did i say Quin was better, please find where i said this, NO i said that he covered opponents #1 WR majority of the time. Big difference in my wording compared to yours. And the fact remains KJ sucked in the 2010 season, blame who are what you want, but in 20 years people wont remember who the D.C was or who the safties were they will remember who the CB got that got torched at a historic pace during the 2010 season.

Dude, the nickel back does not cover the #1 receiver almost all the time.

EllisUnit
11-20-2012, 08:12 PM
Dude, the nickel back does not cover the #1 receiver almost all the time.

OK so in 2010 who was the guy covering the opponents #1 ?

76Texan
11-20-2012, 08:16 PM
WHEN did i say Quin was better, please find where i said this, NO i said that he covered opponents #1 WR majority of the time. Big difference in my wording compared to yours. And the fact remains KJ sucked in the 2010 season, blame who are what you want, but in 20 years people wont remember who the D.C was or who the safties were they will remember who the CB got that got torched at a historic pace during the 2010 season.

OK so in 2010 who was the guy covering the opponents #1 ?

Why do I have to be the one who does all the work?

I have already responded to Jamesbill on this matter.
You just need to read more, no offense alright!

EllisUnit
11-20-2012, 08:18 PM
Why do I have to be the one who does all the work?

I have already responded to Jamesbill on this matter.
You just need to read more, no offense alright!

Typing the guys name is work ??? Let me guess there is some complex coverage where KJ was actually covering the #1 and #2 WR, Quin covered the #3 and both safties helped quin thats why he played better than KJ. :slapfight:

EllisUnit
11-20-2012, 08:24 PM
Why do I have to be the one who does all the work?

I have already responded to Jamesbill on this matter.
You just need to read more, no offense alright!

Dude i found ur response to James bill, u said "in the redskins game" KJ was the true #1. Ok wow he got to be the #1 for 1 game ??? Apparently he was the #2 vs the chargers and mr NO NAME WR. I dont get your point, its like your dancing around the question

EllisUnit
11-20-2012, 08:37 PM
Dude i found ur response to James bill, u said "in the redskins game" KJ was the true #1. Ok wow he got to be the #1 for 1 game ??? Apparently he was the #2 vs the chargers and mr NO NAME WR. I dont get your point, its like your dancing around the question

I also said Travis Johnson, Okoye, F. Bennett, A. Molden, Tony Hollings, sucked

I did on the other hand like Jason Babin who has had a pretty good career and become a dominant pass rusher in the last few years.

Did Kj suck back then,,,your damn right he did.

GP
11-20-2012, 09:04 PM
didnt read past the 2nd line of your dumb ass response. This was not between us, this was between me and 76 and stuff that was said a long time ago. As i have said i have eaten my crow so what did your rant accomplish, i still dont agree with 76, cause KJ DID suck back then AND NO it was'nt cause the damn safties were biased against him. He sucked and he has now improved so what it dont change the fact that he DID suck when i said he sucked.

76 has never been critical of KJ. It was always some other player or some situation that caused KJ to fail.

A Safety helped Allen but wouldn't help KJ. A safety slid to the wrong side to provide help to the other CB. The pre snap alignment was wrong. On and on and on.

Just because a guy has terminology, and do some screen shots, doesn't mean much if that same guy is always acquitting one single player over and over. Any one of us could skew data and explain things to fit an agenda; that someone constantly showed us how KJ was wrongly indicted for failure is what drove me to no longer engage in the conversation.

I just got tired of the constant excuses and the 25-shot sequences to prove KJ got hosed by someone.

76Texan
11-20-2012, 09:15 PM
76 has never been critical of KJ. It was always some other player or some situation that caused KJ to fail.

A Safety helped Allen but wouldn't help KJ. A safety slid to the wrong side to provide help to the other CB. The pre snap alignment was wrong. On and on and on.

Just because a guy has terminology, and do some screen shots, doesn't mean much if that same guy is always acquitting one single player over and over. Any one of us could skew data and explain things to fit an agenda; that someone constantly showed us how KJ was wrongly indicted for failure is what drove me to no longer engage in the conversation.

I just got tired of the constant excuses and the 25-shot sequences to prove KJ got hosed by someone.
You can get tired of whatever. The undisputed fact is that KJax is your starter.
Fine if you guys think that he sucked.
What I wanted to ask you is what was your prediction of what he will turn out to be after that "disastrous" season.
And let just end the discussion at that.

EU already admit that he was wrong on that part.
By his own admission, there was no way in hell that a guy like KJax can improve.

What was your take?

EllisUnit
11-21-2012, 12:25 AM
You can get tired of whatever. The undisputed fact is that KJax is your starter.
Fine if you guys think that he sucked.
What I wanted to ask you is what was your prediction of what he will turn out to be after that "disastrous" season.
And let just end the discussion at that.

EU already admit that he was wrong on that part.
By his own admission, there was no way in hell that a guy like KJax can improve.

What was your take?

Thats not what he's saying. He is saying how every time KJ failed in his rookie season you ALWAYS had an excuse or someone else to blame for his failure,,,,,,which i agree with GP. Did KJ suck in 2010 ? Hell yeah he sucked, does KJ suck now ? No he has improved a 100 times over.

But all i am saying is that at the time when all this crap started i said he sucked, and he did.

Rey
11-21-2012, 10:21 AM
Fine if you guys think that he sucked.


It wasn't just the fans that thought KJ wasn't good.

The current defensive coaching staff pretty much acknowledged that when they came in, but they felt like they could help him get better.

It's really ridiculous for you to act like Kareem has been a good player all along. His technique was lacking (according to his own coaches) and he was not great covering the long ball (according to his own coaches).

KJ has gotten much better. Last game he got beat some. It happens. It's the nature of being an athlete, more importantly an NFL corner. Kareem is a more complete player now than he has ever been. Instead of not having players around him to make him look better, he is the player that is making others look better.

You are really selling Kareem short by not acknowledging how much he's improved. That's part of his story. Took major flak...people wanted to run him out of town...he didn't listen...he just worked...and then worked some more....

Major props to Kareem for not losing confidence even when he was splitting time with Allen and just continuing to work. He's a legit starting corner now.

dc_txtech
11-21-2012, 10:54 AM
I was going to post a long retort but luckily realized it would be a waste of time. Intead I just repped 76 and will post this.

76 stuck his neck and reputation on the line by defending KJ. He breaks down more film than probably anybody on the board and seems to have a much better football acumen than most on the board. He defended the undefendable and over time has been proven to be more than correct. This is the second time he has done this (Chris Myers).

76 is 2/2 when he really makes a point to defend someone. Next time we have a player getting trashed on the boards and 76 defends them it would probably be wise to listen to him.

GP
11-21-2012, 11:01 AM
You can get tired of whatever. The undisputed fact is that KJax is your starter.
Fine if you guys think that he sucked.
What I wanted to ask you is what was your prediction of what he will turn out to be after that "disastrous" season.
And let just end the discussion at that.

EU already admit that he was wrong on that part.
By his own admission, there was no way in hell that a guy like KJax can improve.

What was your take?

Shortened version (edited down):

My prediction was that he had 3 years to grow and blossom, or he should be moved to nickel back.

After 2010, to be honest I was actually thinking in 2011 that he might be moved to nickel back in the middle of that season...but Wade and Coach Joseph believed in him and it paid off. They made him split snaps with Allen, and it slowed things down for him. It culminated into his best game as a pro: The Ravens playoff game.

At that point, I was intrigued by his potential for 2012.

Without beating a dead horse here, the guy was bad in 2010...not turning his head around, drawing P.I.'s like crazy, and falling down on every field he played on. After every game, we were treated to screen shots that showed various reasons why KJ still played decently. I didn't buy it then, don't buy it now. When he fails, he fails. I would even wager that in Wade's meetings to this day, KJ is getting criticism for the things he did wrong in the most recent game. On here though, it was always some outside force that betrayed the greatness of Kareem Jackson.

GP
11-21-2012, 11:26 AM
I was going to post a long retort but luckily realized it would be a waste of time. Intead I just repped 76 and will post this.

76 stuck his neck and reputation on the line by defending KJ. He breaks down more film than probably anybody on the board and seems to have a much better football acumen than most on the board. He defended the undefendable and over time has been proven to be more than correct. This is the second time he has done this (Chris Myers).

76 is 2/2 when he really makes a point to defend someone. Next time we have a player getting trashed on the boards and 76 defends them it would probably be wise to listen to him.

Defending a player's long-time worth/value is not the same as habitually, after every game, finding a way to show that player's strengths while limiting the exposure of that same player's faults.

Truth be told, none of the 11 guys out there on the field are bad. It's just that some have fewer Doh! Homer Simpson moments than others. I like it when a poster can see positive aspects in a player, but to only be shown the positives and to never show the negatives??? Ummm OK, whatev.

Being unhappy is part of being a fan. And there's always a chance a player regresses out of nowhere, too, and I pray this isn't the case for KJ. He's been phenomenal this year. If we really hated KJ, we'd have threads that rake him over the coals for the things he does wrong this year. I haven't seen those threads, have you? It's year 3, and technically he's made it.

Playoffs
11-21-2012, 11:33 AM
Being unhappy is part of being a fan.I think it's a choice.

76Texan
11-21-2012, 12:10 PM
Some of you guys are just too much.
You only read what you you want to read.

When I talked about Chris Myers, I admitted that he had his own bad plays.
I defended the plays in which I don't think he "sucked", but rather the guy next to him.
I didn't need to bring up his bad plays, because plenty of people already talked about them.

The same goes with KJ; I said exactly the same thing.

If you want to go into the details; it's very simple.
You can review this most current game.

Check out all of the pass plays (or just the longest ones) by the Jags.

1. The short one where KJax missed the tackle; he was on an island as the Texans were in zero coverage and brought a six-man blitz. That blitz left the throwing lane wide open on KJ's side. The pass rush FAILED him BIG TIME.

2. The one that Blackmon caught for 39 yards in the middle, KJax was also on an island. Look on the other side, why is it that Quin and JJo was doubling on Shorts?

Why is it that KJax draw Shorts in single coverage, and JJo needs a double coverage?

3. In the first quarter, Manning got help from Quin against Blackmon in the slot, and still got burned for 63 yards.

4. In the first quarter, Quin was turned around and burned by the TE Lewis for a 13yd TD pass; Manning backed him up but couldn't outjump the guy.

5. In the fourth quarter, McCain got help from a LB initially; then both safeties converged. Somehow, the whole bunch allowed Blackmon to catch the ball and escape for an 81 yd TD.

So did one or both safeties help out the other guys more, you bet they did!

76Texan
11-21-2012, 12:27 PM
All young players can use improvement after their rookie year, especially one who was drafted as a Junior, whether he's a CB or a LB, or whatever.

"Suck" was Patrick Peterson, who was drafted way higher, had decent safety help and still gave up more than KJax.

A rookie season by KJax should be considered "on track" or at worst "average".

Remember how D. Brown "struggled" earlier and had to be spelled every third series by Salaam in the later part of the season?

That platoon system was suggested by me during PS; the coaches didn't do it until late. I expected that the rookie LT will struggle early if they threw him into the fire. And he did.

In Cushing rookie year, I said that if they put him in coverage too often, too soon, he will "struggle" and he did (Dallas Clark).
It wasn't because he didn't have the ability; the reason was that he wasn't asked to do much of it at USC.

Some fans have too high of an expectation for first-round draft choices.
Sure, some will flourish if he's used in a way that helps him succeed.

Take Clay Matthews or Von Miller for example; they came in and basically all they (the coaches) want them to do is to be edge rushers.

Take McCourty for example; the Pats play a safety over the top and told McCourty to play aggressive and he did well as a rookie in that role.
When they do this, obviously, the Pats were either in cover 2 or they left the other CB on an island.
McCourty struggled in the second half of the season when they started asking him to do more.

There's another young CB the Pats just drafted, Dennard; he also had some successes in the few games he played in, due to the same scheme. And he was a mere #224 pick.
Yes, scheme matters.

thunderkyss
11-22-2012, 04:55 PM
From my observation, it looked like we put Kareem on Calvin Johnson in the second half. I think CJ only had two, maybe three catches in the second half, Stafford looked, then moved on in his progression.

I could be wrong, but that's what I think I saw.

76Texan
11-22-2012, 04:57 PM
From my observation, it looked like we put Kareem on Calvin Johnson in the second half. I think CJ only had two, maybe three catches in the second half, Stafford looked, then moved on in his progression.

I could be wrong, but that's what I think I saw.

The longest one was in cover 3, my original observation.
Boy looks the part. I'm very happy.

ThaJokaa
11-22-2012, 05:08 PM
I dont kno why they didnt have KJac on CJ all game, He shut him down in the 2nd half once they made the transition.

rolyat93
11-22-2012, 08:26 PM
KJ making his case for the pro bowl.

Tailgate
11-22-2012, 08:48 PM
C Johnson had five catches for 103 yards and a touchdown against Ball in the first half.

We switch. Then Jackson limited C Johnson to three receptions for 37 yards in the second half plus a long overtime.

thunderkyss
11-22-2012, 09:25 PM
C Johnson had five catches for 103 yards and a touchdown against Ball in the first half.

We switch. Then Jackson limited C Johnson to three receptions for 37 yards in the second half plus a long overtime.

He did get help from Manning on that pass into the endzone. I guess you have to cover the #1 receiver to get good safety help nowadays.

TejasTom
11-23-2012, 10:20 AM
In the print version of Chronicle today under Texans Report page C5. (sorry couldn't find it online)

At the half, Kareem Jackson went to coach Vance Joseph to talk about changing assignments.
Kareem said "Let me chase him"
Vance said "Start chasing him"

I think this is huge. So the coach didn't put Kareem on Johnson, Kareem did.

Mr teX
11-23-2012, 10:41 AM
In the print version of Chronicle today under Texans Report page C5. (sorry couldn't find it online)



I think this is huge. So the coach didn't put Kareem on Johnson, Kareem did.

That just warms my heart all over...

:bender::bender::bender::bender::bender::bender:

The youngin is developing the swagger that is needed to play as a starting cb in this league....& its not just bumping of the gums either (dante hall anyone?) he's actually backing it up on the field.

thunderkyss
11-23-2012, 11:36 AM
In the print version of Chronicle today under Texans Report page C5. (sorry couldn't find it online)



I think this is huge. So the coach didn't put Kareem on Johnson, Kareem did.

That's awesome. He's now my favorite player.

ThaJokaa
11-23-2012, 11:44 AM
In the print version of Chronicle today under Texans Report page C5. (sorry couldn't find it online)
At the half, Kareem Jackson went to coach Vance Joseph to talk about changing assignments.
Kareem said "Let me chase him"
Vance said "Start chasing him"


I think this is huge. So the coach didn't put Kareem on Johnson, Kareem did.

KJac Da GAWD
http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/15/35/41/3528814/3/960x595.jpg

76Texan
11-23-2012, 11:52 AM
Another positive step in his growth.
I am happy to witness the guy's development year to year.

Playoffs
12-05-2012, 11:50 AM
Cornerback Kareem Jackson allowed a catch rate of 61.3 in 2011, which was close to league average. This year he has allowed a catch rate of 46.4, which is the 10th-best in the league.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/12/05/32-observations-week-13/

infantrycak
12-05-2012, 12:44 PM
Cornerback Kareem Jackson allowed a catch rate of 61.3 in 2011, which was close to league average. This year he has allowed a catch rate of 46.4, which is the 10th-best in the league.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/12/05/32-observations-week-13/

Can you post the list of the top 10?

Playoffs
12-05-2012, 01:25 PM
Can you post the list of the top 10?Here's the top 10 & Texans...
.......................................Completion% Allowed
1 Antonio Cromartie NYJ ................42.2
2 Tony Carter DEN
3 Ike Taylor PIT
3 Casey Hayward GB
5 Brandon Flowers KC
6 Lardarius Webb BLT
7 Devin McCourty NE
8 Chris Culliver SF
9 Davon House GB
10 Kareem Jackson HST..................46.4

35 Johnathan Joseph HST ..............56.2
36 Brice McCain HST .....................56.4

71 Stanford Routt KC ....................64.1

112 Marcus Gilchrist SD .................80.9

ThaJokaa
12-05-2012, 02:20 PM
Cromartie #1? da fuq?

Playoffs
12-05-2012, 03:09 PM
Cromartie #1? da fuq?

Just in the one metric, although he might also be #1 in tackles avoided. :D

deucetx
12-05-2012, 03:17 PM
Cromartie #1? da fuq?

Wouldn't you be when you have to pay all that child support? Doesn't he have like 10 kids? LOL. Dude doesn't know what birth control means.

Kareem has been having a stellar year and definitely taken his game to another level. I still would love to see the kid in zone coverage as I could him producing some really game changing numbers because it would mesh with his abilities so well. But being in Wade's man coverage just is making him even more versatile.

DocBar
12-05-2012, 03:39 PM
Just in the one metric, although he might also be #1 in tackles avoided. :DAsomough owns that record by a long shot. :tiphat:

Dutchrudder
12-05-2012, 03:57 PM
Cromartie #1? da fuq?

Did you not watch the Jets/Texans game? Cromartie was all over AJ the whole game. He did a great job against him.

thunderkyss
12-21-2012, 10:33 PM
Cornerback Kareem Jackson allowed a catch rate of 61.3 in 2011, which was close to league average. This year he has allowed a catch rate of 46.4, which is the 10th-best in the league.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/12/05/32-observations-week-13/

I heard on the radio today, that he is now allowing only 42%


Can anyone confirm?

EllisUnit
12-21-2012, 11:20 PM
I heard on the radio today, that he is now allowing only 42%


Can anyone confirm?

With the way our secondary has been getting lite up lately i really find it hard to believe he improved. He has still looked good from what i have seen but just do see it with the way, Henne, Brady, Stafford, Luck lite us up lately. Just saying

infantrycak
12-22-2012, 12:39 AM
With the way our secondary has been getting lite up lately i really find it hard to believe he improved. He has still looked good from what i have seen but just do see it with the way, Henne, Brady, Stafford, Luck lite us up lately. Just saying

Luck had his lowest yards of the season, a miserable completion percentage - hard to see where he lit us up.

I'm waiting for the post where someone says Schaub lit up Henne or Stafford.

dc_txtech
12-22-2012, 01:01 AM
*lit

Playoffs
12-22-2012, 11:43 AM
I heard on the radio today, that he is now allowing only 42% Can anyone confirm?
.........Percentage completions into players coverage*

1 Antonio Cromartie NYJ .....42.3
2 Casey Hayward GB ..........43.3
3 Ike Taylor PIT ................44.1
4 Bradley Fletcher SL .........45.5
5 Lardarius Webb BLT .........45.8
6 Devin McCourty NE .........45.9
7 Chris Culliver SF .............46.9
8 Kareem Jackson HST ....47.0

38 Brice McCain HST ..........56.4

47 Johnathan Joseph HST ...58.3

112 Marcus Gilchrist SD ......83.0

*ProFootballFocus (http://www.profootballfocus.com/), minimum 25% of team's snaps

76Texan
12-22-2012, 11:48 AM
If the CB didn't interfere, KJax most likely would have had a pick six in the last game.
(They called offensive PI on that play.)

EllisUnit
12-22-2012, 11:50 AM
Luck had his lowest yards of the season, a miserable completion percentage - hard to see where he lit us up.

I'm waiting for the post where someone says Schaub lit up Henne or Stafford.

Not specifically luck was just saying in this stretch of games the secondary has been getting burned pretty bad. You dont think so ?

EllisUnit
12-22-2012, 11:52 AM
.........Percentage completions into players coverage*

1 Antonio Cromartie NYJ .....42.3
2 Casey Hayward GB ..........43.3
3 Ike Taylor PIT ................44.1
4 Bradley Fletcher SL .........45.5
5 Lardarius Webb BLT .........45.8
6 Devin McCourty NE .........45.9
7 Chris Culliver SF .............46.9
8 Kareem Jackson HST ....47.0

38 Brice McCain HST ..........56.4

47 Johnathan Joseph HST ...58.3

112 Marcus Gilchrist SD ......83.0

*ProFootballFocus (http://www.profootballfocus.com/), minimum 25% of team's snaps

see his percentage went up a little. This is what i meant, and damn JoJo WTF

The Medic01
12-22-2012, 12:02 PM
Not specifically luck was just saying in this stretch of games the secondary has been getting burned pretty bad. You dont think so ?

Well you said Luck so that's pretty specific. And if you don't get pressure those QBs you will get burned no matter what. (except for Henne) good thing we have been getting better pressure lately.

Playoffs
12-22-2012, 12:21 PM
and damn JoJo WTFJJo(84) and KJ(83) were targeted almost the same number of times. The difference is just 10 receptions over 14 games. A few inches here, a hammy there, a perfectly windowed pass...

ThaShark316
12-22-2012, 01:29 PM
With the way our secondary has been getting lite up lately i really find it hard to believe he improved. He has still looked good from what i have seen but just do see it with the way, Henne, Brady, Stafford, Luck lite us up lately. Just saying

Henne's big plays were on Manning and McCain. The KJax one was thanks to no safety help AT ALL.

Stafford torched Ball and McCain. Slapped KJax on Starscream...err um, Megatron...1 catch.

Welker had KJax looking foolish, I'll admit, on one play, but other than that...?

Luck? LOL if it wasn't for Demps and his ****ery, Indy never scores that TD.

thunderkyss
12-22-2012, 01:43 PM
Welker had KJax looking foolish, I'll admit, on one play, but other than that...?


The Pats fan said KJax did not get into Welker's head. But Kj has been bringing some wood & putting a hurt on people all year. Along with Dobbins, & Quin, & Manning laying wood, I think our secondary is becoming feared.

Jjo even got in on it last week.

infantrycak
12-22-2012, 03:33 PM
Not specifically luck was just saying in this stretch of games the secondary has been getting burned pretty bad. You dont think so ?

Certainly against Jax and Detroit although a lot of that was not coverage per se but bad tackling - injuries also played a big part.

76Texan
12-22-2012, 03:49 PM
Jackson finished third on fan voting for the ProBowl.
Imagine that !

I wonder who voted for him ?

Man, that's really a long way from being labeled as a bust not too long ago.

Cromartie and Bailey were the top two vote-getters in the AFC.

Wait, Bailey is not even on the top ten list showed in one of the posts above.

infantrycak
12-22-2012, 03:51 PM
Wait, Bailey is not even on the top ten list showed in one of the posts above.

Ahman Green had a great quote about the pro bowl - typically you get in a year after you should have and you end up going at least a year after you should.

76Texan
12-22-2012, 03:54 PM
BTW, somebody needs to tell them to remove McCourty from that list.
He has converted to full-time safety for awhile now.

Also, it's another reason why you can't really trust individual numbers.
A large portion of Pats fans don't want to see him at CB.
Many had "given up" on him there in year 3.
They were glad Belichick finally moved him to safety, LOL.

thunderkyss
12-23-2012, 07:53 PM
Early in the game, I saw Kj got beat on an end around. #17 goes into motion before the snap. We're in man coverage, Kj follows behind our line, gets caught in traffic as they snap the ball. By the time he gets to #17 & force him out of bounds, the damage is done, first down...... 10 yard run.

The second time they tried that crap, Kj glides through the traffic Makes a B-line for #17 on the other side. Instead of an end around, it's a screen. But Kj blew that schit all to hell.

My favorite play of the game.

TimeKiller
12-23-2012, 08:09 PM
yea that was about the only good thing that happened all day lol