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76Texan
10-25-2012, 11:55 AM
Since we have a bye week, I thought it might be a good time to revisit the WCO that was made popular by Bill Waslh.

From there, we can see the evolution of the system and how it applies to the one that we're running today.

http://static.espn.go.com/nfl/s/westcoast/history.html

"the West Coast offense, a pass-oriented design"

"Then came the injury to Cook and the end of verticality in the Cincinnati offense...
Walsh went horizontal."

"The initial Walsh concept was for a standard pro-set offense -- two backs in split alignment, two wide receivers and a tight end -- designed to get the ball quickly from the quarterback to the skill-position players. The idea was to release all five of the eligible receivers at the same time, relying on three- and five-step drops by the quarterback to compensate for most blocking breakdowns, and to throw the ball crisply and on the break."

"Despite being groomed by Davis in a vertical passing game, Walsh decided to stretch secondaries horizontally as well, forcing slower linebackers and safeties into coverages."


"Precision timing, with receivers running hard into and out of their cuts, was a key. From multiple formations, there were myriad possibilities, multiplied even more by motioning players before the snap."

"Certainly those elements are the common denominators of any offense that is today dubbed a West Coast attack. But in the 30-plus years since Walsh devised the purest form of the West Coast offense, it has undergone many changes by coaches who adopted the basics and then tweaked them."

...
(Jon Gruden) "There are times, like when we used three tight ends, that we are about as far removed from a West Coast offense as it's possible to be."

Joe Gibbs years ago added the multiple tight ends and one-back formations, both anathema to the West Coast offense. He also put in a lot of "bunch" formations. Coryell began to flex the tight end, especially when he had Kellen Winslow at his disposal. Mike Shanahan in Denver uses many of the same traps, pulls and counters that the original West Coast offense featured but has tinkered a lot with the passing side of things.

Gruden prefers an I-formation or a one-back set to the standard split backfield that Walsh used and also relies on zone-blocking. In the classic West Coast offense, the blocking was primarily man-to-man, and the staple rushing play was the sweep.

"Really, how often now do you see split backs?" Holmgren said. "There is a lot more power stuff, strength-of-formation things, going on now. The West Coast offense, before all the motion and shifting, was more balanced."

76Texan
10-25-2012, 11:58 AM
From the same article, ex-QB Steve Young talked about the WCO:

It's all about the feet
The best way to define the West Coast offense may be to start with what it isn't.
The traditional passing game, which NFL teams ran for years, is based on deep drops, quarterbacks bouncing and waiting for receivers to come open, one-on-one matchups and throwing the ball downfield.

In contrast, the West Coast offense as it originated with Bill Walsh is any play or set of plays that tie the quarterback's feet to the receiver's route so there is a sense of timing.

The offense cannot be taught or run based solely on a playbook. If a coach has no history in the West Coast and wants to teach it based on a playbook, he wouldn't get it. Timing and choreography, not plays, are what make the West Coast offense.

My definition might include a number of teams that aren't generally thought of as West Coast offense teams. In fact, most of the league uses some of the West Coast philosophy and perhaps even the Walsh tree of plays. For the most part, the system and the plays are intersecting, but they don't need to be. The quick slant is considered a staple West Coast play -- dropping three steps, planting and throwing on time and in rhythm with the receiver. But there are tons of ways to design West Coast plays, even if they didn't originate with Walsh.

Two weeks ago I visited the Patriots and met with quarterback Tom Brady. When I asked him about his drops and his reads, he said everything is about finding space, zone routes, man-zone reads, short drops and timing. Brady's footwork tells him when to throw the ball. So, while offensive coordinator Charlie Weis has no West Coast history or ties to Walsh and the 49ers system in his coaching background, the Patriots essentially are running the West Coast offense.

Meanwhile, based on how Kurt Warner and the other Rams quarterbacks throw the ball, Mike Martz does not run a West Coast offense in St. Louis. He uses a more traditional passing game in which the routes are not tied to the quarterback's feet.

Bucs coach Jon Gruden, who worked under Mike Holmgren in Green Bay, will say, "We're not running the West Coast offense. I'm running my offense." Well, that's fine, Jon. And sure, he and other coaches may feel they don't run the West Coast, because they don't run Walsh's plays from 1980.

But I disagree. Although Gruden may run different plays and have different names for certain aspects of his offense, his plays are designed with the quarterback's footwork in mind. And that is the West Coast offense.

-- Steve Young

76Texan
10-25-2012, 12:06 PM
http://skinnypost.com/check-the-technique/the-west-coast-offense/

"The West Coast system under Mike Shanahan and the Denver Broncos for example utilized different offensive sets (single back, double tight end, 5 wide, I formation, etc..) that often saw potential pass blockers run out for passing routes. A mobile QB for Shanahan’s system was also important as the coach liked to run a lot of bootlegs and roll-outs where mobility and accuracy on the run were needed. Each coach had their own little wrinkle and tweaked the system according to their personnel. Generally speaking, the West Coast Offense tends to prefer bigger receivers who run well after the catch. This offense typically predicates on the short and mid range passing attack and tries to create match-up problems for the defense."

"The West Coast offense has been traditionally known as a “Pass first” offense..."

"Wide Receivers aren’t the only passing threat in this style offense. Typically RB’s and Tight Ends play a huge role in the passing game."

...

"As for the running game, some teams that run the West Coast Offense also employed the vaunted Zone Blocking Scheme. This scheme is intended so that the offensive line works in unison off the snap to get the defense flowing in one direction. The key is for the entire line to move together and they need mobility to slide down the line of scrimmage. Since mobility is key, usually the linemen are smaller and more agile. The running back is then responsible for finding the proper lane then making one cut and then head down hill. While the line is moving in one direction, the backside (away from the direction of the flow) of the offensive line “cuts” (meaning bring to the ground) the defensive linemen thus opening an opportunity if the original running lane is clogged. One of the many geniuses of this system is that often times the offensive line would get to the “second level”, meaning a Center or Guard on a Linebacker or Safety. If the Running Back hits the hole at the proper time he only has on or two guys left to beat which can mean big plays. It is a running system that proved a one cut style runner who could hit the hole hard could do well. If the Running Back has great vision and ellusive abilities he can become elite."

...

Also, don't forget to watch the videos and glimpse through the coaching tree.

dream_team
10-25-2012, 06:51 PM
Thanks for the post. I always wondered what really defines a WCO. Steve Young's take on it is very interesting... the QB's feet are tied to the receiver's route. This makes timing & choreography extremely important. It takes alot of practice. I believe this is why most WCO teams script their plays. It gives them an opportunity to practice over & over exactly what they're going to run, so that the timing is perfect.

So if the WCO was meant to be a pass-oriented offense, we seem to run something a bit different since we clearly like to run first.

Who was the first to combine zone-blocking with the WCO? Shannihan?

How is the Shannihan WCO differ from the Kubiak WCO?

Lucky
10-25-2012, 08:47 PM
Where in either of the articles are they discussing the Texans? Interesting read, but you never brought it back to discussing the Texans.

Specnatz
10-25-2012, 09:44 PM
Where in either of the articles are they discussing the Texans? Interesting read, but you never brought it back to discussing the Texans.

It is inferred since Kubiak worked under Shannahan.

Lucky
10-26-2012, 07:07 AM
It is inferred since Kubiak worked under Shannahan.

Articles about Shanahan belong in the Nfl section. If it is directly about the Texans, then it goes in the Texans forum. Same as the past 8 years.

76Texan
10-26-2012, 08:24 AM
Fastforward to 2006, Kubiak was now the HC of the Texans and he brought the Broncos version of the WCO to Houston.

Here's an article from TC that describe Kubiak's offense:

http://blog.chron.com/fanblogtexans/2006/06/texans-changing-the-color-of-the-bronco-playbook/

Notice that the article was posted in June 2006.

“We’ll bring our system from Denver, although we might change the color of the playbook a little bit, maybe to a little darker blue. But we’re going to have the Texans’ offense, the Texans’ defense and the Texans’ special teams. And we’ll be committed in all three areas, and I can promise you that we’ll be aggressive.”

"The philosophy of the offense is to use SHORT, SAFE passing routes
and balance these with a strong running game. The object is to
control the ball for long periods of time and march methodically
down the field. It doesn’t rely on deep passing routes or Hall of
Fame runners who can bust out for 40, 50, 60 yards at a clip. It’s
the SCHEME, not the personnel, that has made the Broncos successful."

...

Personally, I would question the part about personnel, but I guess the idea behind it has its own merrit.

76Texan
10-26-2012, 08:35 AM
In 2009, TC had another piece to complement her original piece; you can find it here:

http://blog.chron.com/texanschick/2009/05/the-houston-texans-offense-back-to-the-future/


The differences between a Denver offense and a traditional West Coast Offense


“The running game does not in any way resemble Bill Walsh’s version of the West Coast Offense. Mike Shanahan and Alex Gibbs completely changed the way the blocking is carried out. All five O-linemen and the tight end must work together seamlessly. Their steps completely in sync with each other. Each of the linemen must be able to block in space to take care of LBs or safeties."

Here, I notice a difference when another Bronco fan talk about personnel; I figure we've already found out that this is a more "political correct" way:


The “right” personnel for the scheme

A number of Texans fans wondered why Dave Ragone was released, and why various players were drafted where they were in the draft. In my mind, it is all about system, and getting the smart offensive players we need to fit the system.

76Texan
10-26-2012, 09:23 AM
And here's a piece at battleredblog (from last year), discussing the Texans WCO:

http://www.battleredblog.com/2011/5/13/2166901/houston-texans-west-coast-offense-gary-kubiak-andre-johnson

The driving philosophy of the system is "pass to set up the run." The quarterback will drop back and make short horizontal/intermediate passes of 4-to-14 yards. The idea is that you stretch the defense out sideways with the pass, which opens up running lanes. This intermediate offense also causes the safeties to cheat up which will allow the offense to land the knockout punch (a/k/a the deep pass). Don't get that mistaken. though. because the goal is to chip away at a defense, as opposed to being a vertical-strike, Mike Martz offense. A WCO should keep a defense on its heels, wear them down with high play counts, and then run all over them when a lead is obtained.

All those people calling for Arian Foster early and often? It contradicts the Walshian idea of passing to set up the run, which is used to ice games. It's a bit obvious, at least to me, that this is the kind of offense that Kubiak wants to run. It's why you see a lot more first-half passing - Kubiak's trying not to tinker too much with perfection.

...

I had verified the bolded part myself in other threads.
By my count, we passed nearly 60% of the time in the first half.

76Texan
10-26-2012, 09:25 AM
Thanks for the post. I always wondered what really defines a WCO. Steve Young's take on it is very interesting... the QB's feet are tied to the receiver's route. This makes timing & choreography extremely important. It takes alot of practice. I believe this is why most WCO teams script their plays. It gives them an opportunity to practice over & over exactly what they're going to run, so that the timing is perfect.

So if the WCO was meant to be a pass-oriented offense, we seem to run something a bit different since we clearly like to run first.

Who was the first to combine zone-blocking with the WCO? Shannihan?

How is the Shannihan WCO differ from the Kubiak WCO?Your first question was addressed in the posts above.

I'll try to get to the other two later.

infantrycak
10-26-2012, 08:33 PM
Thanks for the post. I always wondered what really defines a WCO. Steve Young's take on it is very interesting... the QB's feet are tied to the receiver's route. This makes timing & choreography extremely important. It takes alot of practice. I believe this is why most WCO teams script their plays. It gives them an opportunity to practice over & over exactly what they're going to run, so that the timing is perfect.

That is not the point of scripting. Keep in mind the offense is designed to look like pass or run at any time and to have a number of plays from the same formation. The scripting is to see how the D is going to react to a certain formation. I can't remember the season but for example on a scripted play the Texans ran a reverse to Kevin Walter - everyone was huh? - WTF? Later in the game the Texans showed the same look, got the same D alignment and torched them for a long bomb. It was set up by what they saw on the scripted play.

76Texan
10-26-2012, 10:36 PM
That is not the point of scripting. Keep in mind the offense is designed to look like pass or run at any time and to have a number of plays from the same formation. The scripting is to see how the D is going to react to a certain formation. I can't remember the season but for example on a scripted play the Texans ran a reverse to Kevin Walter - everyone was huh? - WTF? Later in the game the Texans showed the same look, got the same D alignment and torched them for a long bomb. It was set up by what they saw on the scripted play.

^^^ This!

Here's an article by Adam Schefter when he was a sports writer for the Denver Post after an interview with Kubiak specifically about the script.

http://extras.denverpost.com/broncos/scripting0912.htm

"Scripting, to me, is almost like double preparation," Kubiak said. "We drill in the player's head these 15 plays over and over again. And then their individual coach is going to drill those 15 plays in their head. And they're going to sit at their locker the day of the game and look at those 15 plays. They will be coached so hard on those 15 plays that it's just got to be a reason why they run them so much better and so clean. The preparation - the double preparation, as I like to call it - makes them that much more successful."

....

Every now and then, the script, like a firecracker, is a dud. There have been times when the Broncos have run the first three or four plays of their script, realized nothing was working, and scrapped their week of preparation. "We'll say, 'Hey, these guys are playing us totally different than we thought they would play us, that's gone, let's go on to something else,'" Kubiak said. It happened last season at San Diego, when Denver played a Sunday night game there in late November. Right at the game's outset, the Chargers stuffed the Broncos cold, and Denver turned a cold shoulder to it script. "We went to a two-back shotgun (offense) and you can ask our players, it was a school-yard football game," Kubiak said. "We were calling stuff that was not in the game plan but we felt like that was the way we had to beat them. It was not only not scripted, it was not even part of the plan." Good, smart players adjust. They ad lib. And they find a way to make it work.

...

"You're trying to find out what a defense is all about, so you do a lot of things," Kubiak said. "You try to find out how they're going to play you in various situations. So you're not only scripting plays for yourself, but your scripting plays that make them react to what you're going to do for the rest of the game. You might jump in a formation just to see how they would play that formation. Or how they're going to match up on some of your people so that when you get to quarters two, three and four you know now, early in the game, how they would play you. In a lot of ways, you're trying to get people to show their hand so to speak."
....

76Texan
10-26-2012, 10:49 PM
Here's a very long paper about play scripting.
It's very interesting.

http://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1304&context=sportslaw

Only pages 526-528 are relevant.

The important thing to keep in mind is that the scripted plays don't necessarily go one after another.

According to that paper, Shanahan (and therefore Kubiak) also scripted between 6 to 8 plays to start the second half.

(Note, I also read in a book by Tim Greene that Walsh started out with 15 scripted plays and then increased the number to 25.)

76Texan
10-26-2012, 11:27 PM
Steve Young's take on it is very interesting... the QB's feet are tied to the receiver's route. This makes timing & choreography extremely important. It takes alot of practice. I believe this is why most WCO teams script their plays. It gives them an opportunity to practice over & over exactly what they're going to run, so that the timing is perfect.



That is not the point of scripting. Keep in mind the offense is designed to look like pass or run at any time and to have a number of plays from the same formation. The scripting is to see how the D is going to react to a certain formation. I can't remember the season but for example on a scripted play the Texans ran a reverse to Kevin Walter - everyone was huh? - WTF? Later in the game the Texans showed the same look, got the same D alignment and torched them for a long bomb. It was set up by what they saw on the scripted play.

However, since we're only practicing a number of sets of plays each week (instead of the whole playbook) it also makes sense that since the players have time for the same reps more than if we were to practice more plays (more different route combinations), Schaub can get his timing down with his receivers better.

HJam72
10-27-2012, 11:50 AM
Double pene....what?

paycheck71
10-27-2012, 11:58 AM
That is not the point of scripting. Keep in mind the offense is designed to look like pass or run at any time and to have a number of plays from the same formation. The scripting is to see how the D is going to react to a certain formation. I can't remember the season but for example on a scripted play the Texans ran a reverse to Kevin Walter - everyone was huh? - WTF? Later in the game the Texans showed the same look, got the same D alignment and torched them for a long bomb. It was set up by what they saw on the scripted play.

Last year, in the Atlanta game, they had a 4th and 1 early in the game. They were going for it, but IIRC, false start killed the play. They kicked a field goal. Later in the game, they came back with the exact same formation, maybe even play because they knew how ATL was going to defend it, and Foster scored a TD.

76Texan
10-27-2012, 02:29 PM
Last year, in the Atlanta game, they had a 4th and 1 early in the game. They were going for it, but IIRC, false start killed the play. They kicked a field goal. Later in the game, they came back with the exact same formation, maybe even play because they knew how ATL was going to defend it, and Foster scored a TD.

How dou you remember all that? :good:

76Texan
10-27-2012, 02:41 PM
Who was the first to combine zone-blocking with the WCO? Shannihan?

How is the Shannihan WCO differ from the Kubiak WCO?

It seems a lot of people credited Alex Gibbs with the ZBS and WCO marriage.
Take this article for example:
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7429732/chris-brown-gary-kubiak-houston-texans-running-game


But I don't think we can be sure of that.
If you're interested I can provide some links for you to read up on and come up with your own conclusion.

As far as Kubiak offense, I think it's an evolution from the Broncos scheme.
I have several Broncos games from 2007 that I can review.
I had watched 3 so far, but I'd like to review some more to have a better idea.

Basically, it looks to me like: more formations, more motions, more ways for receivers to block, more play-action.
They combine to make a more complex offense.

Obviously, the Redskins are incorporating a bunch of zone reads (Baylor/Art Briles) into their play action pass and run such that they are quite different from us nowadays.

paycheck71
10-27-2012, 02:48 PM
How dou you remember all that? :good:

I think they broke it down on NFL Turning Point on NBC Sports Network last year. My memory may not be as good as I think. :) Now I'm having second thoughts on whether they called the same play on a TD later in the game or on another 4th and 1.

76Texan
10-27-2012, 02:52 PM
I think they broke it down on NFL Turning Point on NBC Sports Network last year. My memory may not be as good as I think. :) Now I'm having second thoughts on whether they called the same play on a TD later in the game or on another 4th and 1.

Haha, at least you are unsure how good your memory is.
Personally, I KNOW my memory is NOT Any Good. http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif

Wolf
10-27-2012, 03:11 PM
It seems a lot of people credited Alex Gibbs with the ZBS and WCO marriage.
Take this article for example:
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7429732/chris-brown-gary-kubiak-houston-texans-running-game


But I don't think we can be sure of that.
If you're interested I can provide some links for you to read up on and come up with your own conclusion.

As far as Kubiak offense, I think it's an evolution from the Broncos scheme.
I have several Broncos games from 2007 that I can review.
I had watched 3 so far, but I'd like to review some more to have a better idea.

Basically, it looks to me like: more formations, more motions, more ways for receivers to block, more play-action.
They combine to make a more complex offense.

Obviously, the Redskins are incorporating a bunch of zone reads (Baylor/Art Briles) into their play action pass and run such that they are quite different from us nowadays.


In his first two seasons in Houston, Kubiak's Texans went 14-18. For his third year, Kubiak brought on Gibbs to orchestrate the running game. Gibbs is gone now he left Houston after a couple of seasons, then briefly joined Pete Carroll's staff in Seattle before retiring but the Texans still use the Gibbs formula, which has been good enough to give them the second-best rushing attack in the league this season. What was Gibbs' magic and how can the Texans use it to make a playoff run, even with the NFL equivalent of John Q. Public at quarterback?

The key to Gibbs' zone running game is that the foundational play is the outside zone (the "wide zone," in Gibbs' terminology), not the more common inside zone. The inside zone is a "vertical push" play that aims to move the defense backward and have a running back carry the ball forward with a full head of steam to get yards. The outside zone is more about lateral movement. Each blocker first steps to the side rather than forward (and many coaches teach their linemen to take their first step backward, a technique referred to as "losing ground to gain ground"). The blockers then try to pin defenders to the inside or if they can't do that, drive them to the sideline. Sometimes on these plays, the running back runs around the edge on a traditional-looking sweep. More often, the defense is stretched to its limit and the runner hits a crease and then sprints straight toward the end zone. When executed correctly, it's extremely taxing on the defense, as all of their instincts aggressiveness to the ball carrier and fast pursuit work against them, and linemen without great size or talent can open huge holes through excellent technique and discipline.

But if it's so good, why doesn't every NFL team use it? The answer is the same reason that, despite his legendary status, Gibbs has never lasted too long in one job. Gibbs' style of zone blocking requires total commitment by every offensive player linemen must be perfect technicians, not just fat guys who push others around; runners must make reads and make "one-cut-and-go" plays rather than juke and tap dance like the next Barry Sanders; and quarterbacks and receivers can't treat runs as mini-breaks because they're expected to execute assignments and make blocks. The offense is also taxing on coaches. Gibbs will tell anyone willing to listen that if you want to be good at the wide zone and the tight zone, throw out all of your other run plays. All those wonderful Power O plays, Counter Trey plays, and whatever other fancy stuff you think you need get rid of it. Instead, run two yes, two run plays, and run them against every defensive front you face until you get really good at them. To Gibbs, anything else is hubris.1

Interesting read. Thanks MSR

76Texan
10-28-2012, 09:42 PM
Where in either of the articles are they discussing the Texans? Interesting read, but you never brought it back to discussing the Texans.

It is inferred since Kubiak worked under Shannahan.

I had sent a PM to Lucky to notify my transition to the Texans WCO; so far he has yet to respond.

76Texan
10-28-2012, 11:17 PM
And he's been here.

I was really disappointed that he never attempted to respond to my PM after all that time!

Lucky
10-28-2012, 11:41 PM
76Texan,
This is an somewhat interesting topic regarding the WCO, but it is not specific about the Texans. Posting articles from 2006 is not very topical to what is going on with the team in 2012. This would be better served as a blog post, really, as you go several posts without getting a comment.

Here is the header for the Texans Talk forum:

"Texans Talk Football talk only please. Keep it to the game, the players, the coaches and management."

Not about the WCO offense, in general. Or the history of the WCO. What next? The history of the 3-4 and how the Texans defense fits in? The history of the playaction fake, and the Texans' implementation? Anything football related can be linked to the Texans. But is it directly about the Texans? If not, it belongs in a different forum.

BTW, what difference to you does it make what forum the thread resides in? It will stay on the first page of the NFL forum much longer than the Texans forum. The forum is crowded enough as is with current Texan news.

76Texan
10-28-2012, 11:58 PM
76Texan,
This is an somewhat interesting topic regarding the WCO, but it is not specific about the Texans. Posting articles from 2006 is not very topical to what is going on with the team in 2012. This would be better served as a blog post, really, as you go several posts without getting a comment.

Here is the header for the Texans Talk forum:

"Texans Talk Football talk only please. Keep it to the game, the players, the coaches and management."

Not about the WCO offense, in general. Or the history of the WCO. What next? The history of the 3-4 and how the Texans defense fits in? The history of the playaction fake, and the Texans' implementation? Anything football related can be linked to the Texans. But is it directly about the Texans? If not, it belongs in a different forum.

BTW, what difference to you does it make what forum the thread resides in? It will stay on the first page of the NFL forum much longer than the Texans forum. The forum is crowded enough as is with current Texan news.



I am really really sorry that you don't think a study of the WCO and the ZBS is relevant to the Texans.

You are doing a disservice to those who love Texans football.
I am really sorry to say.

You know I can start another thread with TC's blogs as an introduction.
I honestly don't know what is the beef with you.

I had kindly PMed you, and you never did respond.

Perhaps you need to do some soul searching; I really never want to go this far.
You could say that you forced my hand.

76Texan
10-29-2012, 12:05 AM
Honestly, you may want to reconsider your responsibilty as a mod.
And I am saying this not because I may not like you as a person.

Lucky
10-29-2012, 12:06 AM
Honestly, you may want to reconsider your responsibilty as a mod.
And I am saying this not because I may not like you as a person.
I'll take that under advisement. You might consider taking a chill pill.

76Texan
10-29-2012, 12:33 AM
I'll take that under advisement. You might consider taking a chill pill.

I did, and I will take another one!

I hope you take your own advise. I never mean anything to be personal.
You may not understand this, really I don't take anything personal.


But you really need to resign as a mod.

infantrycak
10-29-2012, 08:36 AM
I did, and I will take another one!

I hope you take your own advise. I never mean anything to be personal.
You may not understand this, really I don't take anything personal.


But you really need to resign as a mod.

Simmer down. Lucky is correct. This is general NFL material. Don't get hurt over where a thread goes.

TimeKiller
10-29-2012, 01:14 PM
I think the Texans run quite a bit more power running plays than we think. Wade Smith does a few pulling block every game.

We've also seen the number of screen passes go from borderline over-the-top to nearly extinct. Is that due to a less athletic right side than previous years?

76Texan
10-30-2012, 05:43 PM
Simmer down. Lucky is correct. This is general NFL material. Don't get hurt over where a thread goes.

OK, so I have taken sometimes to chill down.

There was really nothing that has changed.

I understood that my starting the thread with a general reference is more conducive to the NFL forum.

On that part, he has the right as a mod to move the thread.

And that was why I had PMed Lucky to ask him whether he would move the thread back to the Texans forum, as I was about to make the transition to the Texans WCO.

He never answered my PM.

I could have easily started another thread in the main forum with an article that is directly related to the Texans WCO or my own study.

I did not want to make anything personal.

What would you do when the "authority" doesn't respond to your concern?

This is where I suggested that Lucky should resign as a Mod.

I had some comments that are more harsh, but I will refrain from it.

The main points here are:

- Having a clear definition; and there was - no complaint there.
- Responding to a request for a change of venue - never came.

That is abusive of power; in the USA, we don't stand for that!

76Texan
10-30-2012, 06:13 PM
Now another point is that I don't even think I've ever started a thread in the NFL section.

I had narrowed it down to pretty much all Texans.

So if you can see where I'm coming from, all this moving thread is rather astounding.

I don't even spend anywhere near the poportionated time in the NFL forum.

It just blows my mind how certain people want to classify my thoughts in a certain category that is soooooo soooo far from where they are supposed to be!

Double Barrel
10-30-2012, 06:15 PM
Individual mods don't live on the forum 24/7. There are many times where some of us might not log on for several days. Which explains why Vinny set up the mod squad, so at least one mod could be available at any given time. And even then, there are times when we, like, sleep and stuff.

If you did not get a quick answer to your PM, it might be because the particular mod had not logged in to see it. I doubt it was anything personal.

Lucky
10-30-2012, 06:45 PM
If you did not get a quick answer to your PM, it might be because the particular mod had not logged in to see it. I doubt it was anything personal.
It's not personal. I think 76Texan is a valued member (regardless of his feeling for me). I think we've given him a lot of slack in regards to posting numerous large pics in order to illustrate his points. Which other members have enjoyed.

I really think his post(s) on the WCO belong on a blog. Much like dalemurphy has utilized. Then provide a link to the blog, pointing to the specific Texans information in a thread here. But starting a thread where the Texans aren't even mentioned until the 8th post, and complaining that it is strictly about the Texans seems odd. Not to mention, the links provided were far from current.

Finally, there's nothing wrong with posting a thread in the NFL forum. It's not the black sheep of the board. Furthermore, the thread is more likely to stay on the front page of this forum than if it resided in the Texans forum.

No one bats 1.000 in making decisions here. We take our best guess based on what we've seen that works and doesn't work. Not everyone will agree with what we do 100% of the time. But, we're trying to do the best we can for everyone.

76Texan
10-30-2012, 06:46 PM
Individual mods don't live on the forum 24/7. There are many times where some of us might not log on for several days. Which explains why Vinny set up the mod squad, so at least one mod could be available at any given time. And even then, there are times when we, like, sleep and stuff.

If you did not get a quick answer to your PM, it might be because the particular mod had not logged in to see it. I doubt it was anything personal.

Trust me, I understand!

And it's good to hear another voice on the matter; I am really appreciative of your input.

Like I said, and many of you know that I'm not one to jump to a conclusion.
I gave the matter plenty of time; I always try to resolve matters out of public.

It's not that bad really, if only people communicate.

Lucky was there like I said;

I would understand if he wasn't, but he was and he never responded.

With much respect to you, DB.

76Texan
10-30-2012, 06:49 PM
It's not personal. I think 76Texan is a valued member (regardless of his feeling for me). I think we've given him a lot of slack in regards to posting numerous large pics in order to illustrate his points. Which other members have enjoyed.

I really think his post(s) on the WCO belong on a blog. Much like dalemurphy has utilized. Then provide a link to the blog, pointing to the specific Texans information in a thread here. But starting a thread where the Texans aren't even mentioned until the 8th post, and complaining that it is strictly about the Texans seems odd. Not to mention, the links provided were far from current.

Finally, there's nothing wrong with posting a thread in the NFL forum. It's not the black sheep of the board. Furthermore, the thread is more likely to stay on the front page of this forum than if it resided in the Texans forum.

No one bats 1.000 in making decisions here. We take our best guess based on what we've seen that works and doesn't work. Not everyone will agree with what we do 100% of the time. But, we're trying to do the best we can for everyone.

Now if only you have responded to my PM like this, I wouldn't have no qualm.

But you never did!

powda
10-30-2012, 06:55 PM
It's not personal. I think 76Texan is a valued member (regardless of his feeling for me). I think we've given him a lot of slack in regards to posting numerous large pics in order to illustrate his points. Which other members have enjoyed.

I really think his post(s) on the WCO belong on a blog. Much like dalemurphy has utilized. Then provide a link to the blog, pointing to the specific Texans information in a thread here. But starting a thread where the Texans aren't even mentioned until the 8th post, and complaining that it is strictly about the Texans seems odd. Not to mention, the links provided were far from current.

Finally, there's nothing wrong with posting a thread in the NFL forum. It's not the black sheep of the board. Furthermore, the thread is more likely to stay on the front page of this forum than if it resided in the Texans forum.

No one bats 1.000 in making decisions here. We take our best guess based on what we've seen that works and doesn't work. Not everyone will agree with what we do 100% of the time. But, we're trying to do the best we can for everyone.

As always 76, great content and you make this place more informative for me.

Lucky, I think you guys do a fantastic job.

Double Barrel
10-30-2012, 07:05 PM
It's not personal. I think 76Texan is a valued member (regardless of his feeling for me). I think we've given him a lot of slack in regards to posting numerous large pics in order to illustrate his points. Which other members have enjoyed.

I really think his post(s) on the WCO belong on a blog. Much like dalemurphy has utilized. Then provide a link to the blog, pointing to the specific Texans information in a thread here. But starting a thread where the Texans aren't even mentioned until the 8th post, and complaining that it is strictly about the Texans seems odd. Not to mention, the links provided were far from current.

Finally, there's nothing wrong with posting a thread in the NFL forum. It's not the black sheep of the board. Furthermore, the thread is more likely to stay on the front page of this forum than if it resided in the Texans forum.

No one bats 1.000 in making decisions here. We take our best guess based on what we've seen that works and doesn't work. Not everyone will agree with what we do 100% of the time. But, we're trying to do the best we can for everyone.

yep. I actually check the NFL section first when I log on the forum. I'm a Texans fan, of course, but also a big NFL fan. Pro football is the only sport that I can watch two teams not from Houston and enjoy the heck out of it. My wife calls herself a "football widow" during the fall, because she knows that Sundays are dedicated to the games.

But back to the point, there is nothing wrong with the NFL section, and I think threads like this one really help all fans understand the fundamentals of the game. I think you mentioned it up thread, but this one would have been second page very quickly on the Texans forum. In the NFL section, it will probably stay first page for awhile.

Now if only you have responded to my PM like this, I wouldn't have no qualm.

But you never did!

I can't speak for Lucky, but I am guilty of not seeing PMs. Sometimes I don't notice until days after it was sent to me. I always try to answer when I see them, but I never want anyone to think that I'm ignoring them. I simply don't notice it many times when I log in.

As always 76, great content and you make this place more informative for me.

Lucky, I think you guys do a fantastic job.

I agree with Lucky's sentiments about 76Texan and enjoy reading his analysis.

And thanks for the props. We are just regular fans like everyone else. :)

infantrycak
10-30-2012, 11:46 PM
OK. Done with this. Anyone can call me the Nazi. Won't be the first time.