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throwANDREtheBALL
06-04-2005, 11:59 AM
:brickwall

OK, I would like any one of our beer-goggle texans' fans to tell me what Casserly and Co. have done for the O-line this year ?

They said it was top priority and what have they done ?


Orlando Pace - Offered him an average contract knowing he would pass on. (to make it look like they were doing something)

L.J. Shelton - Offered him a crappy contract, even though he's allowed an average of 5 sacks a year?

Drew Hodgdon - Drafted him in the 5th round. (drafting 3 other positions, and trading away two other picks, before finally addressing the O-line)

Victor Riley - Who in many scouts' eyes is in SERIOUS decline, and was one of the worst starting lineman in the league last year

Musical Chairs - letting Wand and Pitts play a kindergarten game of who can move around the most. (Maybe its going to help with their footwork?)

Changing some Blocking Schemes - which may prove the biggest improvement, but, you can't make chicken salad out of bologna


So in essence the O-line really was one of their last priorities.

If you think you can prove this statement wrong..........got proof ?

Tailgate
06-04-2005, 12:03 PM
:brickwall

Orlando Pace - Offered him an average contract knowing he would pass on. (to make it look like they were doing something)

If you think you can prove this statement wrong..........got proof ?

Got proof that they offered the contract to make it only "seem" like they were doing something????

Dejota
06-04-2005, 12:11 PM
Proof is crap on message boards unless you state verifiable fact. We all know "seems" is a word that ALWAYS lacks proof. So nobody will have that proof, but I agree with him for one reason. Orlando Pace was using us just as much as we were using him. He needed a team that needed him to get his contract finally. We needed to back up our third year hollow promise of getting a good OL on the field. Orlando being interested in us was, was just as much a charade for his publicity as ours.

Tailgate
06-04-2005, 12:38 PM
The facts about the whole situation was that the Texans KNEW that getting Orlando was a LONG SHOT, but one worth taking.... and they said that publicly many times. Thats all that should be taken from the situation, not a conspiracy theory.

That theory actually goes along with that the O-Line was NOT a priority this offseason and they only did this because they wanted the fans to think they cared about that position, while all along behind the scenes truly thinking they didnt care about improving LT, etc.... Please.

Just because something is a priority, doesnt mean things will go your way. The circumstances just didnt present themselves where it would be worth making the moves at this time. There is still more off season to go, one more year in the 5 year plan, with a huge tackle draft coming up next year.

F-minus67
06-04-2005, 12:40 PM
I think that people aren't giving the o line enough of a chance I mean how many games did the starting five play together? Wade was hurt for a few games, Wiegert missed the last couple of games. Not to mention that Wand was basically a rookie and Pitts was playing a new position. And finally McKinney is McKinney. You can't expect these guys to play like the broncos, ravens or chiefs lines after one season, it took years for thoses lines to get the players that fit the systems. Those lines also have at least one first round pick.

Tailgate
06-04-2005, 12:44 PM
Who knows, this offensive line if kept intact after one more year may just be enough to do the trick. Then we will have been able to make all the other moves we have had, like instilling much needed young talent at the DL position (another offseason top priority).... and still be ok.

Wouldt that be peachy?

jr0ck
06-04-2005, 01:10 PM
i think it's funny most people who criticize our GM/caoching staff only do so because they didn't make the same moves the "message board analysist's" would have, to accomplish the same goal in mind. i think everyone needs to recognize that there are countless ways of accomplishing anything, and just because CC has done things that seem very unconventional to alot of you to shore up the OL does not mean it won't work. of course if it isn't the way you would have done it then you will be inclined to question it, and are encouraged to do so, but being a "tiny chicken" is unnecessary and adds nothing to the evaluating where our team is right now. now this isn't directed and anyone on this thread, and i don't have anyone in mind while i type this, but i just thought i'd express my feelings in the most suitable active thread :)

and just for the sake of hypotheticals, can anyone give me definative proof that our OL as whole had an off year and didn't realize their full potential last season? im know most of you think this, :pigfly:, is more probable than what i just supposed, but when you don't know, you don't know...and we are not payed to know :cool:

dalemurphy
06-04-2005, 01:15 PM
Okay, this is interesting:

the 1990 Dallas Cowboys had a horrible OL. Aikman was sacked 12 times in one game against the Eagles that year.

the 1992 Dallas Cowboys had an excellent OL.

Here is the starting OL in 1990 and then 1992:

1990: Tuinei Newton Stepnoski Gesek Gogan (C.Ker)

1992: Tuinei Newton Stepnoski Gogan EWilliams (Gesek)


Amazingly similar... By the way, Williams was drafted in the 3rd round. I wonder if the fans were screaming before the 1991 and 1992 season that the team isn't addressing the OL problems

JDizzle
06-04-2005, 01:23 PM
When did the Texans say the offensive line was a top priority?

Even if they did that doesn't necessarily mean you have to make major personnel changes.

MojoMan
06-04-2005, 01:31 PM
It is my sense that the OL played OK past year, given all the new personnel, the new implementation of a new zone blocking scheme, and some injuries.

Clearly, the performance of the OL last year was not an acceptable benchmark for future performance, especially in the sacks department. The OL must continue to improve, and I believe they will. I don't know why it is so hard for some people to understand that current personnel are capable of improving, are expected to improve, and generally do improve with experience, good coaching and playing time.

New personnel does not equate to improvement, just like throwing money at the educational system does not directly translate into improved performance. Sometimes, the best decision you can make is to be patient and persistent.

The Bible says (Ecclesisastes Ch. 3) -

1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven:

2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,

3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,

4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,

5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,

6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,

7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,

8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

Also, if I may add:
There is a time to restaff your Offensive Line,
and a time to be patient and stick with the guys that you have.

Wolf
06-04-2005, 02:10 PM
:brickwall

OK, I would like any one of our beer-goggle texans' fans to tell me what Casserly and Co. have done for the O-line this year ?

They said it was top priority and what have they done ?


Orlando Pace - Offered him an average contract knowing he would pass on. (to make it look like they were doing something)

L.J. Shelton - Offered him a crappy contract, even though he's allowed an average of 5 sacks a year?

Drew Hodgdon - Drafted him in the 5th round. (drafting 3 other positions, and trading away two other picks, before finally addressing the O-line)

Victor Riley - Who in many scouts' eyes is in SERIOUS decline, and was one of the worst starting lineman in the league last year

Musical Chairs - letting Wand and Pitts play a kindergarten game of who can move around the most. (Maybe its going to help with their footwork?)

Changing some Blocking Schemes - which may prove the biggest improvement, but, you can't make chicken salad out of bologna


So in essence the O-line really was one of their last priorities.

If you think you can prove this statement wrong..........got proof ?


pace...I am glad we didn't give up 2 first rounders for him.. Yes we offered a contract knowing we probably wouldn't get him.
Riley is nothing more than a backup ...he can play rt or lt ..depth is important in this league.

about the draft.. ok..that is a no win situation for the Texans..if they draft a tackle (who there really wasn't a great LT in this draft) we'd complain that we need youth on the d-line when/if walker or payne got injured.. about Buchanon.. do you think there would be someone left in the draft that could equal his potential as pr/kr/cornerback..when we pick in the high teens next year (or we should) ..we already know buchanon can play in the NFL.

Shelton..hey ..we offered a contract and he decided to go to cleveland..no big loss imo

musical chairs.. nothing new there..we have done this (move players around) since our first year..I don't understand why people freak out on the reports of this.. Injuries happen.. The Texans want to put the 5 best players out on the line..I imagine every team works that in their system.. heck the oilers did it all the time with mathews..(not comparing the PLAYERS OF MATHEWS AND PITTS , just the way teams move players around)


and besides that.. I feel Center is one of our main weaknesses on the line... I hate the fact that we get stuffed so much when we run up the middle in short yardage situations (I haven't looked at stats so I may be mistaken,but that is what I remember).. and can't recall the last time Carr had an actual pocket to throw from.

Vinny
06-04-2005, 02:20 PM
The team said that 'protecting the QB' was a priority, not wholesale changes in the line. We have seen them alter the offense in the mini-camps and install timing routes so Carr doesn't hold on to the ball too long. From what I have gathered speaking to others closer to the team than me we are also changing our line protections and the way we call them as well (less isolation). Protecting the QB is more complex than just changing the players.

Paragon Blue
06-04-2005, 02:27 PM
i like how all you so called Texans fans keep on ripping the team. You guys truly are real fans!!!!!!!! :thumbdown

Honoring Earl 34
06-04-2005, 02:39 PM
:dangit: The O-line is a concern but the D-line was the biggest priority. The only O-linemen in the draft that might help now where Baas and Spencer . The Texans liked Travis Johnson better .

I do believe this is the year that excuses are inexcusable. If Carr gets sacked or pressured alot its time for a change .

ATX
06-04-2005, 03:33 PM
The Oline and Dline are always major priorities for teams that are having problems in other positions as well. i think fromn a fan perspective, the Oline is the hardest thing to guage in the league. sure you see the sacks given up and some small details, and you can tell when your oline sucks or dominates, but its never like other positins in the league, which are spotlighted more as well as easier to watch. 5-6 guys blocking in different schemes all working together to achieve one thing. they're like a team within a team. let them grow together, they'll get better. we don't need one probowl lineman and 4 average lineman, we need 5 average guys playing together like a probowl line. some team's philosophies are to draft a LT in the fisrt round, pay him huge money and pay other players less, while some teams draft lower round LTs and pay other players more. depends what comes your way. i'm still thinking if the line doesn't play up to expectations, especially wand, Pitts will move back to LT and stay there. Pitts was solid at LT and would only improve.

michaelm
06-04-2005, 04:18 PM
man oh man, I'll be glad when the season is here so we can stop rehashing this topic. Well, at least stop speculating and have some game tape to reference.
I'm not saying that you aren't justified in being concerned with the o-line, but maybe this thread might have been better placed in one of the many that cover this topic.
I'm sure the catalyst was Shelton signing with Cleveland, so in essance, it's a semi-new topic, but I man I'm tired of all this o-line regurgitation.

ArlingtonTexan
06-04-2005, 05:02 PM
man oh man, I'll be glad when the season is here so we can stop rehashing this topic. Well, at least stop speculating and have some game tape to reference.
I'm not saying that you aren't justified in being concerned with the o-line, but maybe this thread might have been better placed in one of the many that cover this topic.
I'm sure the catalyst was Shelton signing with Cleveland, so in essance, it's a semi-new topic, but I man I'm tired of all this o-line regurgitation.

Hate to tell you that Training Camp with pads does not start for another 6 or 7 weeks. unfortunately, that is also the deadest time of the year in regards to football news. the magazines will come out with the analyst who will say the same thing about the Texans not addressing the O-line and someone will reference it in a new thread. Wish I had more hope for you.

Texan in Japan
06-04-2005, 07:22 PM
Okay, this is interesting:

the 1990 Dallas Cowboys had a horrible OL. Aikman was sacked 12 times in one game against the Eagles that year.

the 1992 Dallas Cowboys had an excellent OL.

Here is the starting OL in 1990 and then 1992:

1990: Tuinei Newton Stepnoski Gesek Gogan (C.Ker)

1992: Tuinei Newton Stepnoski Gogan EWilliams (Gesek)


Amazingly similar... By the way, Williams was drafted in the 3rd round. I wonder if the fans were screaming before the 1991 and 1992 season that the team isn't addressing the OL problems

DM - I think patience in OL development is key...your point I believe.

OT: If you look at Wade and Wand, they are both young, have awesome size and tremendous potential. Those attributes alone, along w/added experience will make them better. Add to that, the changes in the offense w/more quick, timing routes and you'll putting less pressure on them.

OG: Pitts is arguably our best lineman. What's exciting is he doesn't have that much football experience and he's been versatile in his three seasons. If he is allowed to develop at LG, we have a potential pro-bowler one day. RG is Wiegerts' to lose, but if he's injured or M. Brown or Riley turn it on, then may the best man win. Having veterans with starting experience is very important to the oline. Hopefully, Wiegert stays healthy and contributes his experience.

C: McKinney is suppose to be the OL leader and a solid starter. I don't get to see many games in Japan, so I can't agree/disagree that his play hurt our line. I don't think we can expect Hodgdon to come in and become a starter this year, unless McK really stinks or gets hurt. Whether Washington or Weary can force competition this year, will determine whether they make the team or not.

If you look at our talent and depth, this group of lineman will definitely be our strongest in 4 years as a franchise. Not because of a lot of new names, but by adding experience in the new system by all of last years guys, a former vet starter in Riley and some youth (Hodgdon & Bubba Evans). Add to this we have more weapons on offense and quicker play execution is being stressed, and we just might be fine with our current group of OL.

TexansTrueFan
06-04-2005, 07:26 PM
i like how all you so called Texans fans keep on ripping the team. You guys truly are real fans!!!!!!!! :thumbdown


i wouldnt be so broad with your comment, i have never bashed the team, and all the guys who do, its only cause they want them to be better. We wouldnt be true fans if we didnt question their motives.

disaacks3
06-04-2005, 07:46 PM
1990: Tuinei Newton Stepnoski Gesek Gogan (C.Ker)

1992: Tuinei Newton Stepnoski Gogan EWilliams (Gesek)

Amazingly similar... By the way, Williams was drafted in the 3rd round. I wonder if the fans were screaming before the 1991 and 1992 season that the team isn't addressing the OL problems Yeah, hindsight is always 20-20. To be fair though, there is a WORLD of difference between the 90 & 92 lines. Gogan was playing out of position at tackle, and Big "E" was the best lineman in football till his high-speed "encounter" with an overpass on the LBJ freeway.

The Texans didn't draft any O-Linemen in 2004 - by comparison, the Cowboys, since 1984 have only had 2 drafts (1990 & 2000) that they didn't draft any. Were they all great picks? No, but you gotta bring 'em in to find out!

TexansTrueFan
06-04-2005, 07:59 PM
5- year lineman plan LOL, yeah thats it.

vtech9
06-07-2005, 09:26 PM
Does anyone know anything about C Gennaro DiNapoli from the Cowboys? He is available, but I really don't know if he would be an upgrade on McKinney or not.

How about C Blake Lingruen from Detroit? He is available too.

BornOrange
06-07-2005, 11:52 PM
The Texans didn't draft any O-Linemen in 2004 - by comparison, the Cowboys, since 1984 have only had 2 drafts (1990 & 2000) that they didn't draft any. Were they all great picks? No, but you gotta bring 'em in to find out!
The 2004 draft is the only draft the Texans didn't pick an offensive lineman.

U4ikrob
06-08-2005, 08:31 AM
The 2004 draft is the only draft the Texans didn't pick an offensive lineman.

True - but then again Pitts is the only one drafted in the second round or higher. Everyoen else we have picked up have been 3rd rounders or lower. We certainly have not made the O-line a priority since year 1 when we picked 3 lineman.

Unfortunately the lack of a decent TE on the team to help the O-line has raelly hurt also along with not having a LT who didnt come out asa project to us. Wand is nice - but still pretty raw - and IMO still should be a a back-up LT like he was planned to be behind Bosseli when we staretd the team. But the best laid plans... so to speak sometimes fall apart. What I dont like is the rosey colored glasses spin folks keep trying to put on the line like it's goign to magically get better just beacuse they had an off-season to think about it.

I cant wait till the pads come on and games start so we can end this debate allready. - I am hoping the guys prove me and many others wrogn about the line and that they step up to the challenge and protect DAvid like they are paid to do. Otherwise I forsee a very long season for Mr. Carr again and perhaps a trip in his future :ouch: if things dont change. Everything takes time to develop sure - but they have had 4 years and 3 drafts folks. These players are not rookies and should be expected to do their jobs like everyone else on the team is paid to do. The O-line HAS to step up this year. Everything takes a toll and 150+ sacks in 3 years will take a toll on Mr. Carr. Hopefully they all get on the same page enough this year to make a difference in the season.

At least I hope so for Mr. CArr's and my remote's sake. My poor remote takes a beating every sunday - lol :brickwall Hopefully Mr. Carr wont be joining it this year for a change.

ojthecat
06-08-2005, 08:45 AM
Ok I keep hearing that we didn't draft a LT in the first or second round this year last year yada yada yada. Look who was availible? World class left tackles do not grow on trees and just because you have a first round pick does not mean that it should be used on a LT. You only use a first round pick on a LT that is first round material. There haven't been any. So what did we get instead? Last year we got a top corner and a outside rusher, both postitions that we needed to fill. As I see it we only really have 2 weaknesses on this team. TE and LT and I for one would rather see use upgrade the TE before the LT.

:cool:

dalemurphy
06-08-2005, 10:10 AM
True - but then again Pitts is the only one drafted in the second round or higher. Everyoen else we have picked up have been 3rd rounders or lower. We certainly have not made the O-line a priority since year 1 when we picked 3 lineman.



Should we have taken Gross instead of AJohnson?
How about Gallery instead of Dunta and Babin? Or, we could have taken Dunta and then Jeff Faine?

Who are all these OL picks in rounds one and two that we missed on? Instead of just complaining, how about saying what you think should have been done!

throwANDREtheBALL
06-08-2005, 10:50 AM
OJthecat, I think you are a little off.

we have more holes than LT and TE.........I'd say we need a Center even more than those two positions. That said, I agree with you we need a complete TE very much.

I think that we also need a NT, a nice big run-stuffer that can draw double teams and stay HEALTHY. Cuz Payne is on the decline and is undersized to play NT in the 3-4.

infantrycak
06-08-2005, 10:52 AM
2002 draft

1st round
Mike Williams--Bills starting RT--has given up an average of 8.5 sacks per year.
Bryant McKinnie--Vikings starting LT last two years--gave up 11 sacks each of those years.
Levi Jones--Bengals starting LT--has averaged 9.3 sacks allowed.
Marc Columbo--Chicago reserve LT.
Kendall Simmons--Pittsburgh reserve LG (drafted as an OT).

2nd round
Mike Pearson--Jags reserve OT.
Langston Walker--Oakland reserve LT.

2003 draft

1st round
Jordan Gross--Carolina reported to be moving back to RT after having failed to transition to LT where he was drafted to play.
George Foster--Denver one year starter at RT
Kwame Harris--San Fran may be starter this year at RT after being drafted to play LT.

2nd round
Jon Stinchcomb--New Orleans reserve LT

2004 draft

1st round
Robert Gallery--Oakland started at RT may get LT this year .
Shawn Andrews--Philly set to play RG after having been drafted as a RT
Vernon Carey--Miami reserve RT

2nd round
Jacob Rogers--Dallas reserve LT

As dalemurphy says it is only useful to criticize if you say what would should have been done differently to have a net positive effect on the team. The 2002 LT's certainly weren't worth giving up Carr. Anyone want to seriously argue AJ doesn't benefit the team more than the 2003 OT's would have? Stinchcomb would have only been available after a trade up and in any event, he has barely hit the field more than Joppru. In 2004 only Gallery might have made an impact and it would have come at the price of at least Dunta and Babin--JMO I wouldn't make that trade. I don't see where the value would have made an OT better than what we took in the 1st two rounds which leaves us with a 3rd rounder Wand who has demonstrated good upside potential. Making something a priority doesn't mean ignore value and relative talent. The Texans added more talent to the team through AJ, Dunta, Babin, etc. than they would have by drafting the guys above.

infantrycak
06-08-2005, 11:40 AM
I was out of commision for 4 days (work) and fully expect for the Texans to have added somebody to the line by now.

Didn't "somebody" make the pro-bowl last year? No that's wrong "somebody" got released for being a turnstyle.

Adding "somebody" isn't the solution. Adding a specific player to upgrade a specific player may help. Got any specific suggestions?

ojthecat
06-08-2005, 12:24 PM
2002 draft

1st round
Mike Williams--Bills starting RT--has given up an average of 8.5 sacks per year.
Bryant McKinnie--Vikings starting LT last two years--gave up 11 sacks each of those years.
Levi Jones--Bengals starting LT--has averaged 9.3 sacks allowed.
Marc Columbo--Chicago reserve LT.
Kendall Simmons--Pittsburgh reserve LG (drafted as an OT).

2nd round
Mike Pearson--Jags reserve OT.
Langston Walker--Oakland reserve LT.

2003 draft

1st round
Jordan Gross--Carolina reported to be moving back to RT after having failed to transition to LT where he was drafted to play.
George Foster--Denver one year starter at RT
Kwame Harris--San Fran may be starter this year at RT after being drafted to play LT.

2nd round
Jon Stinchcomb--New Orleans reserve LT

2004 draft

1st round
Robert Gallery--Oakland started at RT may get LT this year .
Shawn Andrews--Philly set to play RG after having been drafted as a RT
Vernon Carey--Miami reserve RT

2nd round
Jacob Rogers--Dallas reserve LT

As dalemurphy says it is only useful to criticize if you say what would should have been done differently to have a net positive effect on the team. The 2002 LT's certainly weren't worth giving up Carr. Anyone want to seriously argue AJ doesn't benefit the team more than the 2003 OT's would have? Stinchcomb would have only been available after a trade up and in any event, he has barely hit the field more than Joppru. In 2004 only Gallery might have made an impact and it would have come at the price of at least Dunta and Babin--JMO I wouldn't make that trade. I don't see where the value would have made an OT better than what we took in the 1st two rounds which leaves us with a 3rd rounder Wand who has demonstrated good upside potential. Making something a priority doesn't mean ignore value and relative talent. The Texans added more talent to the team through AJ, Dunta, Babin, etc. than they would have by drafting the guys above.

Thank you for supporting the facts with FACTS. :thumbup

BornOrange
06-08-2005, 01:04 PM
The Texans didn't draft any O-Linemen in 2004 - by comparison, the Cowboys, since 1984 have only had 2 drafts (1990 & 2000) that they didn't draft any. Were they all great picks? No, but you gotta bring 'em in to find out!

The 2004 draft is the only draft the Texans didn't pick an offensive lineman.

True - but then again Pitts is the only one drafted in the second round or higher. Everyoen else we have picked up have been 3rd rounders or lower. We certainly have not made the O-line a priority since year 1 when we picked 3 lineman.

disaacks3 implied the Texans needed to draft a lineman every year. My response showed that the Texans have in fact pretty much done that. Have they been high picks? No, but many teams have shown that you can be successful by drafting guys in lower rounds and then developing them. However, when you take into account free agency, you are clearly wrong when you say that the offensive line has not been a priority with the Texans.

Remember in the expansion draft the Texans brought in Tony Boselli and Ryan Young. I won't go through the whole history with Boselli, but it was obvious that the Texans were planning on both of those to be the tackles of the future. Steve McKinney was signed as a free agent. Chester Pitts and Fred Weary were drafted in the regular draft and then Milford Brown was taken in the supplemental draft. Injuries to Boselli, Young, and guard Ryan Schau really decimated the line.

The next offseason the Texans drafted Seth Wand, signed Zach Wiegert and Todd Washington, and traded a fifth rounder for Greg Randall. By all accounts, the line play improved significantly over the year before even though there was still room for improvement. Greg Randall seemed to be an underachiever and wasn't brought back. Weary and Brown weren't developing as fast as everyone wanted, but some players take longer than others...especially offensive linemen.

Last offseason the Texans brought in Todd Wade to solidfy the right tackle spot and Marcus Spears to provide depth at both tackle spots. No one was drafted for the line, but it seemed there was a pretty good blend of veterans brought in from free agency and youngsters developing in the system. The Texans decided to shift Pitts to guard and have Wand start at left tackle as well as change to a zone blocking scheme, so for the third straight offseason there were significant changes to the line.

This offseason the Texans drafted center Drew Hodgen and brought in Victor Riley. They have also been working Pitts out at left tackle and Wand at left guard. Whether they are just working on cross-training for depth purposes or are considering a lineup change remains to be seen. Overall, the Texans seem to be content to have the same line next year without significant changes.

Although they haven't made a lot of changes this offseason, it is clear that the Texans have made the offensive line a priority every offseason. It takes a while to put all the pieces into place when building a team from nothing. In particular, it takes a while to build an offensive line where chemistry and experience together means so much.

Vambo, the Marble Eye
06-08-2005, 02:08 PM
OK, I would like any one of our beer-goggle texans' fans to tell me what Casserly and Co. have done for the O-line this year ?

They said it was top priority and what have they done ?

HOW much of this was "draft day" positioning where everybody lies? :goodbad:

wags
06-08-2005, 03:06 PM
Or, we could have taken Dunta and then Jeff Faine?

That would have been a hell of a draft since they were in different draft classes. :)

throwANDREtheBALL
06-08-2005, 04:53 PM
but, some of your statements are misconstrued.

First let me say, I'm not going to go back and redo every draft, cuz who cares and I would've drafted CARR, AJ and D-ROB cuz those positions are arguably the hardest three positions to find playmakers at.

HOWEVER, I'd like to defend some of the decent lineman that you've wrongly assessed.

LEVI JONES - is on track to be one of the elite left tackles in the league. He's better than any LT we've had on our line. How come you didn't say that?

KENDALL SIMMONS - they discovered that he had diabetes right before training camp in 2003.

Here's a quote from steelers.com,
"Simmons, the recipient of the 2002 Joe Greene Great Performance Award as the Steelers' Rookie Of The Year, was diagnosed with hyperglycemia, a diabetic condition that caused him to lose 30 pounds and significant strength right before training camp in 2003. Kendall started 14 of 16 games during his rookie season and helped the Steelers on their way to the AFC Championship game. He previously majored in Visual Communication / Graphic Arts at Auburn University where he was selected as a first team All-American by the NFL Draft Report. Although a season ending injury in the preseason washed out Kendall's 2004 campaign, he remains active in the community while undergoing rehab and looks forward to returning to All Pro form in 2005."

the link - http://secure2.steelers.com/article/48260/

How come you didn't tell us that?
if I were to believe what you wrote, then I'd think that he just sucks?

MIKE PEARSON - Has had some knee injuries, so that somehow makes his talent level lower than Seth Wand ?

JORDAN GROSS - Played decent on the left side of the line, the coaches moved him back to the right side, cuz they weren't dominating their preferred side of the line to run the ball. It was more a reflection on them wanting to get the right side of the line back to what it was when Gross was playing there, then compared to him not being able to handle LT. He played pretty good for a young guy playing LT for the first time in the NFL. How come you didn't tell us that?

ROBERT GALLERY - Well, he's going to be a great lineman, better than anything we've got, so why even try to knock him? Give me a break.

SHAWN ANDREWS - He was already dominating his opponents when he got injured last year. Once again how do you rate a young guy low, when he's already pancaking guys with ease, in the games before he got hurt. How come you didn't tell us that ?

I could keep going, but, I fear that it is only a waste of time, since you think our line is as good as it can be.

AND since you all want to know what should've been done differently.........I'll tell ya.

Trade down into the 20ish spots........pick up more 3rd-4th picks in the drop.........and draft Chris Spencer with whatever 20ish pick we got. Lets say that we traded with Baltimore. Our 16th and 2006 5th rounder for the 22nd pick, and 5th pick (158), and 2006 4th rounder. I'm sure we could've gotten a 4th this year from someone in a trade down, but, I'll make it a more than believable trade.

So here's who I would've picked.

22nd - C - Chris Spencer - regarded as the top lineman in this years draft, one of select few in the O-line draft class that can make immediate start.

73rd - RB - Vernand Morency - I might've gone after DT Attiyah Ellison, since he could be a great fit on our line, with his speed and size......but, I can't knock the Morency pick, since he was the 4th rated back on some teams lists. I'll try to listen to my advisors as much as possible.

114 - WR - Jerome "FLASH" Mathis - This guy is TURBO and in a couple years we could have the fastest starting WR tandem in the league. Definitely a great pick, since all young recievers need work on their route-running anyways. You can't teach speed. We've got enough depth in our receiving corps to give him the proper time to develop. But, like every other FAN I hope they try to get him the ball this year too.

151 - S - Gerald Sensabaugh - This guy is great value in the 5th round. I think he'll be a good starter in this league. I personally think the Defensive line needs a ton of help so I would've lobbied for DT Anthony Bryant, but, they seemed to want a safety as well.

158 - DT - Anttaj Hawthorne - This guy can play anywhere on the line in the 3-4 with his great size and athletic ability. He'll be a starter.

188 - TE - Adam Bergen - One of the few tight ends in the draft that was a decent receiver as well as blocker. He went undrafted but, the Cardinals snatched him up fast as an UDFA

227 - OLB - Derek Wake - He's a great athlete and many scouts said he was probably best suited for 3-4 defense. Capers wants a linebacker, and this guy is already known as a great blitzer and good at covering TEs. The Giants signed him to an UDFA contract. I also might've taken a look at SS Kurt Campbell who at 6-1 233 runs the 40 in 4.47. Had I taken Bryant over Sensabaugh in the 5th round.

dalemurphy
06-08-2005, 05:07 PM
Well, let's see how Chris Spencer works out in comparison to Hodgdon and Travis Johnson.

Regarding the previous drafts, you could argue that we got the best players in the draft with each of our first round picks the past three years. That's the point! People are arguing that we aren't spending our top picks on OLmen. Fine, I'll argue that we've drafted 3 future probowlers with our 1st round picks in three seasons... I'll take that. I think any team in the NFL would.

The only difference between the horrible Dallas Cowboy line in 1990 and the great Cowboy OLine of 1992 was one 3rd round pick (Erik Williams)... So, chill out and let this line gel and the talent mature.

Vambo, the Marble Eye
06-08-2005, 05:08 PM
So here's who I would've picked.

22nd - C - Chris Spencer - regarded as the top lineman in this years draft, one of select few in the O-line draft class that can make immediate start.

73rd - RB - Vernand Morency - I might've gone after DT Attiyah Ellison, since he could be a great fit on our line, with his speed and size......but, I can't knock the Morency pick, since he was the 4th rated back on some teams lists. I'll try to listen to my advisors as much as possible.

114 - WR - Jerome "FLASH" Mathis - This guy is TURBO and in a couple years we could have the fastest starting WR tandem in the league. Definitely a great pick, since all young recievers need work on their route-running anyways. You can't teach speed. We've got enough depth in our receiving corps to give him the proper time to develop. But, like every other FAN I hope they try to get him the ball this year too.

151 - S - Gerald Sensabaugh - This guy is great value in the 5th round. I think he'll be a good starter in this league. I personally think the Defensive line needs a ton of help so I would've lobbied for DT Anthony Bryant, but, they seemed to want a safety as well.

158 - DT - Anttaj Hawthorne - This guy can play anywhere on the line in the 3-4 with his great size and athletic ability. He'll be a starter.

188 - TE - Adam Bergen - One of the few tight ends in the draft that was a decent receiver as well as blocker. He went undrafted but, the Cardinals snatched him up fast as an UDFA

227 - OLB - Derek Wake - He's a great athlete and many scouts said he was probably best suited for 3-4 defense. Capers wants a linebacker, and this guy is already known as a great blitzer and good at covering TEs. The Giants signed him to an UDFA contract. I also might've taken a look at SS Kurt Campbell who at 6-1 233 runs the 40 in 4.47. Had I taken Bryant over Sensabaugh in the 5th round.


Use our 22nd pick for a center instead of a offensive left tackle, a speedy wide out, any outside linebackers until the 3/4 round?

Man, I don't know Cuz. Even the TE choice (that nobody else wanted) seems seems a little of a reach for the thread you started here about the offensive line priority. Thanks for the ideas though.

infantrycak
06-08-2005, 05:39 PM
First let me say, I'm not going to go back and redo every draft, cuz who cares and I would've drafted CARR, AJ and D-ROB cuz those positions are arguably the hardest three positions to find playmakers at.

Try taking a step back and following the thread. The assertion was made the Texans hadn't made the OL, and particularly the position of most concern LT, a priority demonstrated by the fact they hadn't taken one before the 3rd round. It appears you concede the Texans got the best value in 2002-2004 in the 1st round since you would keep their choices.

HOWEVER, I'd like to defend some of the decent lineman that you've wrongly assessed.

LEVI JONES - is on track to be one of the elite left tackles in the league. He's better than any LT we've had on our line. How come you didn't say that?

Get a grip. The above was a dry recitation about the alternates. If on track is averaging 9.3 sacks for his 1st 3 years, then whohoo. The Texans sure were stupid for moving Pitts and his 5.75 sacks from LT. In any event, I didn't say he won't be good but fact is if he had been around for this MB to review after giving being a 1st round pick and giving up 28 sacks in three years, the bust word would be getting thrown around rightly or wrongly.

KENDALL SIMMONS - they discovered that he had diabetes right before training camp in 2003.
How come you didn't tell us that?
if I were to believe what you wrote, then I'd think that he just sucks?

Ummm, gee--maybe because it really doesn't matter why he isn't on the field since he wouldn't have contributed more to the Texans than the player they selected. See how that works?

MIKE PEARSON - Has had some knee injuries, so that somehow makes his talent level lower than Seth Wand?

On the football field over the last few years, yeah it does.

ROBERT GALLERY - Well, he's going to be a great lineman, better than anything we've got, so why even try to knock him? Give me a break.

Give me a break. Where the heck do you see anything knocking Gallery? The point remains--do you give up Dunta and Babin to get him, i.e. does he alone impact the Texans more than they do. Great player or not, IMO no because they are also great players.

I could keep going, but, I fear that it is only a waste of time, since you think our line is as good as it can be.

Just when it looks like you have totally missed the point...

AND since you all want to know what should've been done differently.........I'll tell ya.

Trade down into the 20ish spots........pick up more 3rd-4th picks in the drop.........and draft Chris Spencer with whatever 20ish pick we got.

...oh my god, there it is. I wouldn't trade what we got but at least you finally gave an on point specific answer.

disaacks3
06-08-2005, 06:16 PM
disaacks3 implied the Texans needed to draft a lineman every year. My response showed that the Texans have in fact pretty much done that. Have they been high picks? No, but many teams have shown that you can be successful by drafting guys in lower rounds and then developing them. However, when you take into account free agency, you are clearly wrong when you say that the offensive line has not been a priority with the Texans. I gave a 'factual' statement regarding the Cowboys' tendencies towards drafting O-Lineman. Yep, we've only had one draft SINCE 2002 that we didn't draft an O-lineman, by contrast, SINCE 1984 the Cowboys have only failed to draft an O-lineman twice. For the mathematically challenged out there, The Cowboys drafted an O-Lineman 20/22 Years (90.9%)...the Texans drafted an O-Lineman 3/4 Years (75%).

My implication is that a team known for having an excellent O-line over DECADES considers it a statistical higher priority to draft O-Linemen than the Texans do. Not only that, they CONTINUED to keep drafting O-Linemen even when they had a VERY good line, while the Texans have never even had anything above a mediocre one (at best). Anyone who doesn't consider this ODD, given the statements from the organization regarding their "priorities" vis-a-vis the protection of Carr, might want to reconsider.

I can't fault the Texans for losing out on Pace...we were "played" and that's the end of it. I can fault them for not drafting an O-Lineman in 2004 (gee, was that a "bad" draft too?), and generally not doing too much this offseason to VASTLY improve the line.

As for Pitts, maybe his sack average is good, but taking a look at the whole package, including those pesky penalties, doesn't equate out to a good overall player...yet.

The Dunta/Babin stuff is a valid argument, but can you honestly dispute that having a better O-Line instead might've won more games? That's what counts when the day is done, right? :confused:

TexansRockMySocks
06-08-2005, 07:17 PM
I gave a 'factual' statement regarding the Cowboys' tendencies towards drafting O-Lineman. Yep, we've only had one draft SINCE 2002 that we didn't draft an O-lineman, by contrast, SINCE 1984 the Cowboys have only failed to draft an O-lineman twice. For the mathematically challenged out there, The Cowboys drafted an O-Lineman 20/22 Years (90.9%)...the Texans drafted an O-Lineman 3/4 Years (75%).

My implication is that a team known for having an excellent O-line over DECADES considers it a statistical higher priority to draft O-Linemen than the Texans do. Not only that, they CONTINUED to keep drafting O-Linemen even when they had a VERY good line, while the Texans have never even had anything above a mediocre one (at best). Anyone who doesn't consider this ODD, given the statements from the organization regarding their "priorities" vis-a-vis the protection of Carr, might want to reconsider.

I can't fault the Texans for losing out on Pace...we were "played" and that's the end of it. I can fault them for not drafting an O-Lineman in 2004 (gee, was that a "bad" draft too?), and generally not doing too much this offseason to VASTLY improve the line.

As for Pitts, maybe his sack average is good, but taking a look at the whole package, including those pesky penalties, doesn't equate out to a good overall player...yet.

The Dunta/Babin stuff is a valid argument, but can you honestly dispute that having a better O-Line instead might've won more games? That's what counts when the day is done, right? :confused:


Well the Cowboys weren't a team still fresh off the books at that time. The first two drafts the Texans had many holes being an expansion team, and were trying to fill all of them. By the time of that 3rd draft, we were ready to start contending and we seriously needed some skill position players. So we got out and drafted them. The results were obvious in our record improvement.

TexansRockMySocks
06-08-2005, 07:23 PM
deleted material (by Vinny)

Could you be any more immature? Geez. Seems like you ran out of points to make so you just started attacking the dude. Immature

infantrycak
06-08-2005, 07:44 PM
The Dunta/Babin stuff is a valid argument, but can you honestly dispute that having a better O-Line instead might've won more games? That's what counts when the day is done, right? :confused:

As a general concept, sure an exceptional OL might have won more games than were influenced by Dunta/Babin last year. But, that was the point of the post above to see who we really would have gotten. Basically the option is Robert Gallery maybe would have been available in place of Dunta & Babin. It's all speculation, but at least last year I doubt Gallery's presence would have impacted the team as much as Dunta & Babin. Anybody else and it isn't even a question IMO.