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thunderkyss
10-21-2012, 08:17 PM
We had a 13 point league for most of the game, but we kept pushing. What happened?

I honestly thought on that bobbled snap Gary was going to call the dogs off. But Matt recovered well, & we kept playing.

30 point lead, could have made it worse, but he took a knee & I'm sure Harbaugh appreciated it.

TexansFanatic
10-21-2012, 08:20 PM
Great question. The team is better and Kubiak is better. What the hell is going on around here?

PockyAF
10-21-2012, 08:22 PM
To add on:

What happened to the 3rd and long draw play for the RB?

I can only remember us running it once in normal field position, and us actually going for a pass on another occasion, that time in our own endzone.

Really refreshing to see us drop the predictable playcalling that I've been used to seeing in usual situations for the last couple of years, and actually deciding to impose our dominance this game.

EllisUnit
10-21-2012, 08:42 PM
I think after how greenbay was still throwing on us with 3 minutes left with a BIG lead last week that maybe Kubiak had a bad taste in his mouth. Hopefully he will throw all that respect B.S out the window and we can win by 30 every game.

amazing80
10-21-2012, 08:43 PM
I think after how greenbay was still throwing on us with 3 minutes left with a BIG lead last week that maybe Kubiak had a bad taste in his mouth. Hopefully he will throw all that respect B.S out the window and we can win by 30 every game.

This. Hopefully it wasn't a one time deal.

gtexan02
10-21-2012, 08:44 PM
We run a lot when we are up big. Normally, teams stack the box and stop the run. Thats why we look like we're turtling.

We ran the ball almost 40 times today. We did go more conservative up big, the Ravens just couldn't stop our ground game.

EllisUnit
10-21-2012, 08:46 PM
We run a lot when we are up big. Normally, teams stack the box and stop the run. Thats why we look like we're turtling.

We ran the ball almost 40 times today. We did go more conservative up big, the Ravens just couldn't stop our ground game.

i think theymean even before the half up by 20 we were still trying to score before half, note the 3 shot gun passes from schaub. Any other time we would just run out the clock, this was def a different Kubiak

thunderkyss
10-21-2012, 08:48 PM
This. Hopefully it wasn't a one time deal.

It's never been a one time deal. Look at last year's schedule, we were blowing teams out with Schaub.

It has been my experience, that he turtle's up when things aren't going our way, but he still wants to win the game. If we can't get to a manageable third down, if we're dropping balls, if we're "lucky" we didn't turn the ball over...... when too many of these things add up, he goes safe. Sometimes the guys on offense aren't clicking for whatever reason. He prevents that from turning into those games where we shoot ourselves in the foot.

thunderkyss
10-21-2012, 08:50 PM
We run a lot when we are up big. Normally, teams stack the box and stop the run. Thats why we look like we're turtling.

We ran the ball almost 40 times today. We did go more conservative up big, the Ravens just couldn't stop our ground game.

Even then, Gary Kubiak is one of the coldest blood thirsty OCs out there. We get that big lead, we pound the ball & then he catches them napping with a big bootleg for a 40+ yard Touch down.

Running the ball isn't conservative when you've got the best OL in the league (which we had last year & working towards this year) & two tail-backs that can take it to the house from anywhere on the field.

Surreal McCoy
10-21-2012, 08:53 PM
We run a lot when we are up big. Normally, teams stack the box and stop the run. Thats why we look like we're turtling.

We ran the ball almost 40 times today. We did go more conservative up big, the Ravens just couldn't stop our ground game.

Exactly. Amazing how much better the 'play calling' is with a little execution, eh?

Norg
10-21-2012, 08:54 PM
uhhhh i dont think we stepped on there throat we left a few 4 and 1 and 4 and 3 on the field if we would of gone 4 them man the score might have been a 50 burger or at least 40 +

eriadoc
10-21-2012, 10:07 PM
Today was just the 4th time in 105 games coached by Kubiak that the Texans have scored 40. So no talk of turtling today, but let's see the tiger change his stripes long term, huh? Just to keep some perspective, here's the sort of faith people have in Kubiak, in real time, from the gameday thread, pages 4 through 6:

Another draw play....

Ok, Stop running the ball. Pass a little bit.

Lol. Kubiak...WTF is this...

Let the borderline elite qb air it out

C'mon with this ****ty playcalling man!

Not sure they can get much more conservative. Especially when they've jumped out with the big downfield plays.

Their script sucks ass.

This completely blows. **** this **** and **** you Kubiak!

I feel like the Capers teams, run run pass punt.

Yayyyyyy. More than 3 yards on first down!

Thanks for waking up Kubes!

3rd and long draw AGAIN

3rd and 18 and you call a RUNNING play:mariopalm:


WTF

Another draw play....

Typical Kubiak playcalling. Can't say I'm surprised.

The game ended up with the best possible result, but let's not pretend like people are thinking Kubes has killed his pet turtle.

hradhak
10-21-2012, 10:13 PM
Part of me thinks that Kubiak has finally realized that when we play to not lose we often do lose. That said, I'm happy to see the Kubiak throw open the playbook even when we are ahead. We should be passing on 3rd and long, and often we actually get the first. I'd like to see more creative playcalling. That was the first time on 1st and goal that we play actioned and hit the TE. That was a great call and I'd like to see some new plays to keep the defense guessing.

Brandon420tx
10-22-2012, 04:15 AM
The third and 18 draw play. I already knew that was coming, Safe play, trying to catch the defense napping, defense playing lights out, punt the ball

TheEastwood
10-22-2012, 05:17 AM
The third and 18 draw play. I already knew that was coming, Safe play, trying to catch the defense napping, defense playing lights out, punt the ball

There's not exactly that many plays designed to get 18+ yards.... Why take the chance of an int?

TheMatrix31
10-22-2012, 05:54 AM
I was most impressed by what we did when we got the ball late in the first half. We wanted 7 more.

THAT was different.

Brandon420tx
10-22-2012, 05:56 AM
There's not exactly that many plays designed to get 18+ yards.... Why take the chance of an int?

I wasn't complaining about it. I do the same thing on Madden. I thought it was a smart move

Wolf
10-22-2012, 06:22 AM
There's not exactly that many plays designed to get 18+ yards.... Why take the chance of an int?

exactly. Play the field position battle and let the defense do it's job

EllisUnit
10-22-2012, 07:11 AM
Today was just the 4th time in 105 games coached by Kubiak that the Texans have scored 40. So no talk of turtling today, but let's see the tiger change his stripes long term, huh? Just to keep some perspective, here's the sort of faith people have in Kubiak, in real time, from the gameday thread, pages 4 through 6:





















The game ended up with the best possible result, but let's not pretend like people are thinking Kubes has killed his pet turtle.

Those were prob all within the first 2 drives !!!!

thunderkyss
10-22-2012, 08:18 AM
Today was just the 4th time in 105 games coached by Kubiak that the Texans have scored 40. So no talk of turtling today, but let's see the tiger change his stripes long term, huh? Just to keep some perspective....

So 40 is the new 30?

fiasco west
10-22-2012, 09:28 AM
I don't think the ultra-conservative stuff is gone.

I think there is a time to be ultra conservative and then there is a time to be more assertive.

When you are playing bad teams, then I think you should be more careful. The only way you lose those games is if you beat yourself any ways.

thunderkyss
10-22-2012, 09:41 AM
I don't think the ultra-conservative stuff is gone.

I think there is a time to be ultra conservative and then there is a time to be more assertive.

When you are playing bad teams, then I think you should be more careful. The only way you lose those games is if you beat yourself any ways.

I think it is the same way when you play the good teams. Since 2009, I've felt the only team that could beat the Texans were the Texans & it happened time & time again (yeah, there was that bad defense thing in 2010, but even then the offense was clicking enough to win many of those games).

Shooting ourselves in the foot has been our identity for a long time. I don't have a problem with Gary calling off the dogs & just trying to win (or not lose). I believe there is good reason for it.

Like yesterday, there are times where you'll see everything is going our way & we continue to play Texans football. Run it down their throats, then catch them napping & punch them in the mouth.

fiasco west
10-22-2012, 09:49 AM
I think it is the same way when you play the good teams. Since 2009, I've felt the only team that could beat the Texans were the Texans & it happened time & time again (yeah, there was that bad defense thing in 2010, but even then the offense was clicking enough to win many of those games).

Shooting ourselves in the foot has been our identity for a long time. I don't have a problem with Gary calling off the dogs & just trying to win (or not lose). I believe there is good reason for it.

Like yesterday, there are times where you'll see everything is going our way & we continue to play Texans football. Run it down their throats, then catch them napping & punch them in the mouth.

Yeah you are right about that. A lot of times the team that just makes less mistakes when the games.

Fumbles, Muffed punts, INTs, any turnover can absolutely kill you. Just look at yesterday. The fumble that almost was by Mercilus and then the sack that was a safety is exactly the reason why you don't want to drop back and go deep down in your own endzone.

GP
10-22-2012, 10:00 AM
Pure speculation, but here goes:

Kuharsky reported that Kubiak called out the Captains this past week.

I do wonder, though, if Matt Schaub had a sit down with Coach K and voiced his own opinions of what had gone wrong...what HAS gone wrong many times when we've lost games we should have won.

Remember Schaub over on the sideline during the early moments of the GB game last Sunday night? He said very plainly (A lot of people in the game thread saw it) "This is BULL****."

Now, what is bull****? GB being GB is not bull****...that's who they had been and should be this year, so it's not GB he's talking about. Is it his fellow teammates who are bull****? I doubt it. Schaub is the consummate professional when it comes to treating his fellow teammates...he's no Jay Cutler.

My theory, and I know it's just a theory, is that there was a mild intervention of some sorts whereby someone or a group of someones voices their displeasure with the conservative nature of this offense.

Look, I know we were winning games up until last week's nightmare. Truth be told, though, we were showing patterns and tendencies of sort of sandbagging it on offense...taking possessions off, so to speak. There were far too many times that this defense was bailing out the offense.

I had said in the early days of Wade's hiring that IF this defense got to be crazy scary awesome...it could become a problem down the line for this team. I'm not talking a full revolt of Buddy Ryan and Kevin Gilbride proportions, I meant that there could exist some turmoil between the two units if a defense is consistently bailing out an offense.

To me, it is arguable that Wade's defense was shouldering far too much of the load in the first 5 games of this season...a trend that was building since last season, IMO. I think the GB game, without Cushing, is where our defense collectively sandbagged it. OK, probably not JJ Watt because he's like a one-man army on every snap and probably in practice too. I'm only theorizing that it's possible that the whole team got into a funk and although Gary had a talk with the Captains, I wonder if someone had a talk with the General himself.

Because what I saw vs. Ravens was THE most electric performance on both sides of the ball. It's not just a coincidence that the defense made Herculean plays all game long, yesterday, after having such a huge turd just a week prior. The offense was shark-like all game long, never stopping and sandbagging it like a traditional Kubiak offense has in the past.

There was aggressiveness not just in play, but in playCALLING as well.

It was the first truly dominant performance I have seen by this team. It's the type of performance you see out of Saints/Patriots/Green Bay. The teams we said we want to emulate in our aggressiveness in terms of play calling.

I'm just saying that it's possible that accountability worked its way upward and not just down the hill this time. I would think that Matt Schaub is the type of leader who would cash in quite a bit of equity that he might have been storing up for a rainy day. Thoughts?

Insideop
10-22-2012, 10:11 AM
Yeah you are right about that. A lot of times the team that just makes less mistakes when the games.

Fumbles, Muffed punts, INTs, any turnover can absolutely kill you. Just look at yesterday. The fumble that almost was by Mercilus and then the sack that was a safety is exactly the reason why you don't want to drop back and go deep down in your own endzone.

That's one of those "high risk/high reward" type of plays that when it works, the coach looks like a genius, and when it doesn't, everyone is questioning the coaches call. Like when it happened to the Texans in Denver. If they would have lost that game I wonder how many more people would have wanted Kubes fired. So I wonder how many Ravens fans want Harbaugh fired today because of that play. :thinking:

Maddict5
10-22-2012, 10:16 AM
Pure speculation, but here goes:

Kuharsky reported that Kubiak called out the Captains this past week.

I do wonder, though, if Matt Schaub had a sit down with Coach K and voiced his own opinions of what had gone wrong...what HAS gone wrong many times when we've lost games we should have won.

Remember Schaub over on the sideline during the early moments of the GB game last Sunday night? He said very plainly (A lot of people in the game thread saw it) "This is BULL****."

Now, what is bull****? GB being GB is not bull****...that's who they had been and should be this year, so it's not GB he's talking about. Is it his fellow teammates who are bull****? I doubt it. Schaub is the consummate professional when it comes to treating his fellow teammates...he's no Jay Cutler.

My theory, and I know it's just a theory, is that there was a mild intervention of some sorts whereby someone or a group of someones voices their displeasure with the conservative nature of this offense.

Look, I know we were winning games up until last week's nightmare. Truth be told, though, we were showing patterns and tendencies of sort of sandbagging it on offense...taking possessions off, so to speak. There were far too many times that this defense was bailing out the offense.

I had said in the early days of Wade's hiring that IF this defense got to be crazy scary awesome...it could become a problem down the line for this team. I'm not talking a full revolt of Buddy Ryan and Kevin Gilbride proportions, I meant that there could exist some turmoil between the two units if a defense is consistently bailing out an offense.

To me, it is arguable that Wade's defense was shouldering far too much of the load in the first 5 games of this season...a trend that was building since last season, IMO. I think the GB game, without Cushing, is where our defense collectively sandbagged it. OK, probably not JJ Watt because he's like a one-man army on every snap and probably in practice too. I'm only theorizing that it's possible that the whole team got into a funk and although Gary had a talk with the Captains, I wonder if someone had a talk with the General himself.

Because what I saw vs. Ravens was THE most electric performance on both sides of the ball. It's not just a coincidence that the defense made Herculean plays all game long, yesterday, after having such a huge turd just a week prior. The offense was shark-like all game long, never stopping and sandbagging it like a traditional Kubiak offense has in the past.

There was aggressiveness not just in play, but in playCALLING as well.

It was the first truly dominant performance I have seen by this team. It's the type of performance you see out of Saints/Patriots/Green Bay. The teams we said we want to emulate in our aggressiveness in terms of play calling.

I'm just saying that it's possible that accountability worked its way upward and not just down the hill this time. I would think that Matt Schaub is the type of leader who would cash in quite a bit of equity that he might have been storing up for a rainy day. Thoughts?

as opposed to usually :P

rest of the post is pure BS obviously. kubes is a smart guy and always self evaluates. there 2 chances he'd need to be intervened with. i still think he saves the plays and stuff for when they're really needed. if we're in 3rd and 17 in a tight playoff game, i think he'll have something better than a draw

were we not aggressive in the broncos etc? did the D sandbag the second half of that because we were being too aggressive? :mariopalm:
why do you waste your time on posts like that?^

eriadoc
10-22-2012, 10:53 AM
I don't think the ultra-conservative stuff is gone.

I think there is a time to be ultra conservative and then there is a time to be more assertive.

When you are playing bad teams, then I think you should be more careful. The only way you lose those games is if you beat yourself any ways.

I completely agree with that. I just don't trust Kubiak to always make the right decision as to when. Judging by the posts in the stream of consciousness gameday thread in the heat of the moment, my fellow fans do not trust the man, either.

When the team plays QBs like Brees, Rodgers, Brady, and Manning, I do not want to see a let-up at all. Unfortunately, that's exactly what he's done. This team had the Saints on the ropes last year before losing it. They had all but blown out the Broncos this year before letting them back into it. When you face a team with a great QB and you get the early lead, you have to bury them.

Now, the time to be conservative is when you can effectively be conservative. The last 20 minutes of game time yesterday was spent running the ball. I have no heartburn with that because it's the smart thing to do, as long as you're churning out first downs. In games past, they were doing 3 and out when they tried to run it late and subsequently letting the other team back in it. They let the Broncos back in it so much that it basically came down to a 3rd down must-have pass to AJ for a first down. Should have buried them sooner.

thunderkyss
10-22-2012, 10:53 AM
Pure speculation, but here goes:

Kuharsky reported that Kubiak called out the Captains this past week.

I do wonder, though, if Matt Schaub had a sit down with Coach K and voiced his own opinions of what had gone wrong...what HAS gone wrong many times when we've lost games we should have won.


I think you're working overtime on this one. I know Kubiak controls what gets out of the locker room, but if something like you are "speculating" went down I'd like to think we'd have heard about a "team meeting" or a "Captain's meeting"

But if this did happen, all I can say is about time.

My theory, and I know it's just a theory, is that there was a mild intervention of some sorts whereby someone or a group of someones voices their displeasure with the conservative nature of this offense.

I'm pretty sure Schaub, Dennison, & Kubiak are involved with putting the script together. If Schaub was not happy with the opening script to the Greenbay game, I don't think he would have been upset with just Kubiak.

Now, maybe he was overridden on a bunch of the plays that made it to the script & he was showing his frustration thinking the plays he wanted (but didn't make it) would have worked better. Again, that's speculating on your speculation.


I'm just saying that it's possible that accountability worked its way upward and not just down the hill this time. I would think that Matt Schaub is the type of leader who would cash in quite a bit of equity that he might have been storing up for a rainy day. Thoughts?

Again, I'm saying about time.

thunderkyss
10-22-2012, 11:14 AM
That's one of those "high risk/high reward" type of plays that when it works, the coach looks like a genius, and when it doesn't, everyone is questioning the coaches call. Like when it happened to the Texans in Denver. If they would have lost that game I wonder how many more people would have wanted Kubes fired. So I wonder how many Ravens fans want Harbaugh fired today because of that play. :thinking:

It happened too early in the game. A competent team would have been able to overcome it. It was a factor in the game, no doubt, but a good team don't lose because they're down by 2 or 5 or 9 early in a game.

So I wouldn't have blamed Owen Daniels if we lost that Bronco's game, even though he gave up that safety to start the game. I didn't blame a certain someone who muffed a punt in a play-off game. Not when we are seeing teams overcome 14+ deficits in the 4th Qtr on a weekly basis.

GP
10-22-2012, 11:16 AM
as opposed to usually :P

rest of the post is pure BS obviously. kubes is a smart guy and always self evaluates. there 2 chances he'd need to be intervened with. i still think he saves the plays and stuff for when they're really needed. if we're in 3rd and 17 in a tight playoff game, i think he'll have something better than a draw

were we not aggressive in the broncos etc? did the D sandbag the second half of that because we were being too aggressive? :mariopalm:
why do you waste your time on posts like that?^

It's not wasting my time. You obviously read it, so maybe YOU wasted YOUR time????

All you had to do was skip it or ignore it, no need to bash me for posting a question and asking for feedback. Trash talking is not feedback, it's just being a colossal asshat for no good reason. But that's par for the course with you.

Maddict5
10-22-2012, 12:00 PM
It's not wasting my time. You obviously read it, so maybe YOU wasted YOUR time????

All you had to do was skip it or ignore it, no need to bash me for posting a question and asking for feedback. Trash talking is not feedback, it's just being a colossal asshat for no good reason. But that's par for the course with you.

touchy.. sorry if i hit a sore spot but settle down. wasnt bashing just wondering why you always have a tinfoil hat theory for everything, posted an example (broncos game) to discredit same theory...which you didnt respond to cos you were too busy responding to my 'trash talking'

and yes i wasted a couple mins reading and replying. i expect you spent quite a bit longer posting..

Insideop
10-22-2012, 01:13 PM
It happened too early in the game. A competent team would have been able to overcome it. It was a factor in the game, no doubt, but a good team don't lose because they're down by 2 or 5 or 9 early in a game.

So I wouldn't have blamed Owen Daniels if we lost that Bronco's game, even though he gave up that safety to start the game. I didn't blame a certain someone who muffed a punt in a play-off game. Not when we are seeing teams overcome 14+ deficits in the 4th Qtr on a weekly basis.

This isn't about blaming players when they make a mistake. It's about blaming coaches for their play calling. This is about people who don't like Kubiak's play calling, whether it's too conservative or not. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that no matter what Kubiak does it's always wrong to some people on this board. They will never be happy until he is gone! And I wonder just how many of those type of fans are in Baltimore wanting to get rid of Harbaugh for making the same type of play call early in the game, which did turn the momentum.

rolyat93
10-22-2012, 01:20 PM
It was amazing I even heard some fans saying Kubes was TOO aggressive.

thunderkyss
10-22-2012, 01:40 PM
It was amazing I even heard some fans saying Kubes was TOO aggressive.


The only time I ever thought Kubiak was too aggressive, was our play-off game vs the Ravens.

ThaJokaa
10-22-2012, 02:08 PM
I actually wanted him to drop 50, we were right there with a min left, we had that in the bag but nope.. Oh well lol

drunkcookie
10-22-2012, 02:12 PM
Pure speculation, but here goes:

Kuharsky reported that Kubiak called out the Captains this past week.

I do wonder, though, if Matt Schaub had a sit down with Coach K and voiced his own opinions of what had gone wrong...what HAS gone wrong many times when we've lost games we should have won.

Remember Schaub over on the sideline during the early moments of the GB game last Sunday night? He said very plainly (A lot of people in the game thread saw it) "This is BULL****."

Now, what is bull****? GB being GB is not bull****...that's who they had been and should be this year, so it's not GB he's talking about. Is it his fellow teammates who are bull****? I doubt it. Schaub is the consummate professional when it comes to treating his fellow teammates...he's no Jay Cutler.

My theory, and I know it's just a theory, is that there was a mild intervention of some sorts whereby someone or a group of someones voices their displeasure with the conservative nature of this offense.

Look, I know we were winning games up until last week's nightmare. Truth be told, though, we were showing patterns and tendencies of sort of sandbagging it on offense...taking possessions off, so to speak. There were far too many times that this defense was bailing out the offense.

I had said in the early days of Wade's hiring that IF this defense got to be crazy scary awesome...it could become a problem down the line for this team. I'm not talking a full revolt of Buddy Ryan and Kevin Gilbride proportions, I meant that there could exist some turmoil between the two units if a defense is consistently bailing out an offense.

To me, it is arguable that Wade's defense was shouldering far too much of the load in the first 5 games of this season...a trend that was building since last season, IMO. I think the GB game, without Cushing, is where our defense collectively sandbagged it. OK, probably not JJ Watt because he's like a one-man army on every snap and probably in practice too. I'm only theorizing that it's possible that the whole team got into a funk and although Gary had a talk with the Captains, I wonder if someone had a talk with the General himself.

Because what I saw vs. Ravens was THE most electric performance on both sides of the ball. It's not just a coincidence that the defense made Herculean plays all game long, yesterday, after having such a huge turd just a week prior. The offense was shark-like all game long, never stopping and sandbagging it like a traditional Kubiak offense has in the past.

There was aggressiveness not just in play, but in playCALLING as well.

It was the first truly dominant performance I have seen by this team. It's the type of performance you see out of Saints/Patriots/Green Bay. The teams we said we want to emulate in our aggressiveness in terms of play calling.

I'm just saying that it's possible that accountability worked its way upward and not just down the hill this time. I would think that Matt Schaub is the type of leader who would cash in quite a bit of equity that he might have been storing up for a rainy day. Thoughts?

Yah, i saw the Schauby "BS"-bomb...loved it btw...

What i took away from that moment was Schaub just letting it out, because poor play from all over had finally added up and Kubiak not going for it triggered the reaction.. Receivers weren't getting open, the running game sucked, the defense was getting torched...

I remember a third down near/inside the redzone where Schaub was able to sit back in the pocket and clip his fingernails... Even got in a couple'a toes as well..i mean the line gave him enough time to check his receivers twice, but no one was open... when the line finally let a guy through, Schaub threw the ball away in disgust, maybe at Foster's feet (I don't remember)... It wasn't just play-calling and/or strategy that was getting to him, he was pissed at everyone...

So as for theories, i bet Matty went into the locker room after that game and ripped everyone's ass (cept Watt i hope)...something about him this year, it just seems like he is "the" leader...dunno what it is...

Double Barrel
10-22-2012, 05:04 PM
Fans don't like it, but running plays to eat the clock when you have a lead is a time-tested strategy in the NFL.

High completion percentage / low risk plays on offense and relying on defense when leading has taken many teams to the Super Bowl.

I'm fairly certain that Bill Walsh, the tree that spawned Kubiak's branch, did the same thing. And Walsh is widely considered a genius coach.

eriadoc
10-22-2012, 05:31 PM
Fans don't like it, but running plays to eat the clock when you have a lead is a time-tested strategy in the NFL.

Well, there's a distinction that you're missing. Getting first downs to eat the clock is a time tested strategy. Running the ball 3 and out when you're barely into the 4th quarter and giving the ball back to an elite QB like Manning or Brees, not so much. If you run the ball to eat the clock, you have to convert a few 3rd downs. If you don't, you have to adjust. Yesterday was perfect - eighteen running plays to end the game, because they got first downs. Earlier this season against the Broncos was almost the other side of that coin.

thunderkyss
10-22-2012, 06:04 PM
Fans don't like it, but running plays to eat the clock when you have a lead is a time-tested strategy in the NFL.

High completion percentage / low risk plays on offense and relying on defense when leading has taken many teams to the Super Bowl.

I'm fairly certain that Bill Walsh, the tree that spawned Kubiak's branch, did the same thing. And Walsh is widely considered a genius coach.

But getting first downs is also important. Good defense, bad defense, it don't matter. When a good team decides it wants to ice the clock, it is up to your team to stop them, get them off the field. Think about all those times MJD did it to us. Think about all those time Eddy George or Edgerin James or Marshall Faulk did it to other teams.

Nothing wrong with conservative, in my book, as long as you average more than 3.3 yards per play.

Double Barrel
10-22-2012, 06:26 PM
Well, there's a distinction that you're missing. Getting first downs to eat the clock is a time tested strategy. Running the ball 3 and out when you're barely into the 4th quarter and giving the ball back to an elite QB like Manning or Brees, not so much. If you run the ball to eat the clock, you have to convert a few 3rd downs. If you don't, you have to adjust. Yesterday was perfect - eighteen running plays to end the game, because they got first downs. Earlier this season against the Broncos was almost the other side of that coin.

I do not disagree with you.

However, Kubiak is just calling the plays. I do not think Kubiak looks at 3 and out as a valid strategy. Every play is designed to be successful. Sometimes it is as simple as the players having to execute those plays. You can't really blame Kubiak if Schaub throws a ball to a receiver that is a yard short, or if they call a running play and some lineman blows his assignment. There's often a fine line between failure and success in the NFL. Sometimes that line is in control of the guys on the field.

badboy
10-22-2012, 06:34 PM
IMO, this is first game ever that Kubiak let the hounds loose. His philosophy remind me of an MMA fighter who takes his opponent to ground and hopes to hold on to get a submission. This game was like Bully Beat Down in that he allowed them up only long enough to take them down again. He used running plays to take time off but kep the passes mixed in to catch them off guard. Perfect game plan.

thunderkyss
10-22-2012, 06:39 PM
IMO, this is first game ever that Kubiak let the hounds loose. His philosophy remind me of an MMA fighter who takes his opponent to ground and hopes to hold on to get a submission. This game was like Bully Beat Down in that he allowed them up only long enough to take them down again. He used running plays to take time off but kep the passes mixed in to catch them off guard. Perfect game plan.

What about Arian's breakout game against Indy? Or the trouncing of Tennessee last year, or the beat down in Jville & Tampa Bay? all pretty similar if you ask me.

drunkcookie
10-22-2012, 07:18 PM
What about Arian's breakout game against Indy? Or the trouncing of Tennessee last year, or the beat down in Jville & Tampa Bay? all pretty similar if you ask me.

@Tennessee last year is a great example... Maybe because it was Baltimore it seems a bit more impressive, but i think Kubs called it more loosely @Tenn last year..

Of course the plays have to be executed..he's called it loose before, it just doesn't work so the way the game was called is forgotten...

Tampa Bay fits a little as well, but @Tenn last year was awesome...

Wolf
10-22-2012, 07:55 PM
I do not disagree with you.

However, Kubiak is just calling the plays. I do not think Kubiak looks at 3 and out as a valid strategy. Every play is designed to be successful. Sometimes it is as simple as the players having to execute those plays. You can't really blame Kubiak if Schaub throws a ball to a receiver that is a yard short, or if they call a running play and some lineman blows his assignment. There's often a fine line between failure and success in the NFL. Sometimes that line is in control of the guys on the field.


exactly.. if the play call is executed .. then all is good.

when it doesn't. fans are saying "why didn't you do it the other thing?"

we passed early on green bay and people were complaining that we didn't run.. we ran early on the ravens and people complained that we didn't pass... hindsight is a beautiful thing with arm chair quarterbacks

silentassassin
10-22-2012, 10:58 PM
exactly.. if the play call is executed .. then all is good.

when it doesn't. fans are saying "why didn't you do it the other thing?"

we passed early on green bay and people were complaining that we didn't run.. we ran early on the ravens and people complained that we didn't pass... hindsight is a beautiful thing with arm chair quarterbacks

Unfortunately, not many understand this concept.

axman40
10-22-2012, 11:05 PM
I will show you what happened.
http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs1/1675550_o.gif (http://gifsoup.com/download.php?id=1675550&d=animatedgifs1&n=breaking-bad-tortoise&s=o)

badboy
10-23-2012, 12:18 AM
What about Arian's breakout game against Indy? Or the trouncing of Tennessee last year, or the beat down in Jville & Tampa Bay? all pretty similar if you ask me.One player (Arian) is not what I'm talking about. Tennessee is no AFC threat & to me is not comparable to putting accelerator down on a 5-1 team and not going conservative when we get a lead. Just my opinion. Beating up on a weak sister is not impressive. Going balls to the wall against Baltimore, priceless!

badboy
10-23-2012, 12:22 AM
exactly.. if the play call is executed .. then all is good.

when it doesn't. fans are saying "why didn't you do it the other thing?"

we passed early on green bay and people were complaining that we didn't run.. we ran early on the ravens and people complained that we didn't pass... hindsight is a beautiful thing with arm chair quarterbacksGB was known to have a poor defense against run and we continued to pass.

Against Balti, we went 3 and out first two series running and Kubiak then changed his ways and our offense began to move.

Say Watt
10-23-2012, 01:58 AM
I do not disagree with you.

However, Kubiak is just calling the plays. I do not think Kubiak looks at 3 and out as a valid strategy. Every play is designed to be successful. Sometimes it is as simple as the players having to execute those plays. You can't really blame Kubiak if Schaub throws a ball to a receiver that is a yard short, or if they call a running play and some lineman blows his assignment. There's often a fine line between failure and success in the NFL. Sometimes that line is in control of the guys on the field.

Yeah man, but the point is the plays Kubiak has traditionally called are far too predictable. I know you watch the games so ask yourself how many times you have seen this team in the late third/early fourth quarter just run 3 straight downs and punt the ball multiple drives in a row? That's all well and good against the Gabbert's and Sanchez's of the world, but it doesn't work so well against the Rodger's and the Brady's of the world. You have to be willing and ready to step on their throats. Throw the ball a little. Keep the defense honest.

Anyway, I sincerely hope this is a new Kubiak. I need to see it a couple more times to believe it though. I am ecstatic about what I saw. I hope I see it more often. Go Texans!!

Double Barrel
10-23-2012, 11:33 AM
Yeah man, but the point is the plays Kubiak has traditionally called are far too predictable. I know you watch the games so ask yourself how many times you have seen this team in the late third/early fourth quarter just run 3 straight downs and punt the ball multiple drives in a row? That's all well and good against the Gabbert's and Sanchez's of the world, but it doesn't work so well against the Rodger's and the Brady's of the world. You have to be willing and ready to step on their throats. Throw the ball a little. Keep the defense honest.

Anyway, I sincerely hope this is a new Kubiak. I need to see it a couple more times to believe it though. I am ecstatic about what I saw. I hope I see it more often. Go Texans!!

Concerns about predictability of play calling when protecting a lead is valid. That thought crossed my mind last night when thinking about this subject, as well.

It's a symbiotic relationship between the coaches and players. The coaches have to call the right plays and the players have to try to make those plays successful. While I agree that the head coach is ultimately responsible at the end of the day, part of his job is to keep the players from mentally taking a break during games when they have a lead, as well.

I'm not against the percentage strategy that Kubiak employs to protect leads. But, like most of y'all, I agree that it needs to be less predictable. If I'm calling the plays before the hike from my couch, I have no doubt that the opposing defensive coordinator knows, as well.

Like I said, it's a fine line to balance, but, always keep in mind that Kubiak is doing what great head coaches before him taught him to do in those situations.

GP
10-23-2012, 11:37 AM
Concerns about predictability of play calling when protecting a lead is valid. That thought crossed my mind last night when thinking about this subject, as well.

It's a symbiotic relationship between the coaches and players. The coaches have to call the right plays and the players have to try to make those plays successful. While I agree that the head coach is ultimately responsible at the end of the day, part of his job is to keep the players from mentally taking a break during games when they have a lead, as well.

I'm not against the percentage strategy that Kubiak employs to protect leads. But, like most of y'all, I agree that it needs to be less predictable. If I'm calling the plays before the hike from my couch, I have no doubt that the opposing defensive coordinator knows, as well.

Like I said, it's a fine line to balance, but, always keep in mind that Kubiak is doing what great head coaches before him taught him to do in those situations.

A great HC would use that 3rd and long draw play all season long, then pull a flea-flicker on that same scenario in a playoff game when he needs it most.

All I can think is that Kubiak is (a) trusting his defense and maybe (b) baiting teams to fall for a deceptive 3rd and long play that an opposing d-coord has scouted and scouted on film...and yet that d-coord doesn't know the fireworks are about to begin on them.

I want to think that, but it's Kubiak we're dealing with here. I might be giving him too much credit for deploying strategy like that for the one-time use of a flea flicker or PA pass or something. LOL. More than likely, he's just giving the defense a chance to make something happen that he couldn't. :roast:

ObsiWan
10-23-2012, 12:57 PM
I do not disagree with you.

However, Kubiak is just calling the plays. I do not think Kubiak looks at 3 and out as a valid strategy. Every play is designed to be successful. Sometimes it is as simple as the players having to execute those plays. You can't really blame Kubiak if Schaub throws a ball to a receiver that is a yard short, or if they call a running play and some lineman blows his assignment. There's often a fine line between failure and success in the NFL. Sometimes that line is in control of the guys on the field.

exactly.. if the play call is executed .. then all is good.

when it doesn't. fans are saying "why didn't you do it the other thing?"

we passed early on green bay and people were complaining that we didn't run.. we ran early on the ravens and people complained that we didn't pass... hindsight is a beautiful thing with arm chair quarterbacks

Rep to you both.

This is where I am. All plays are designed to accomplish something. Whether that thing is a one yd plunge for a first down (or TD) or whether it's a deep bomb. The thing in common is the players - all of them - have to do their job (as we've heard Belichick say time & again). When even one of them doesn't - or just simply get's beat - the play fails. Yet time and again, fans blame the coaching.

Is it really bad play calling if a pass designed to get 8-10 yds only gets 7 because blocking broke down and the QB had to throw it early or the WR failed do get a clean release and was a step behind schedule on a timing route?? ...or if a run designed to get 5-6 yds gets stuffed because a guard/tackle gets beat and the DL gets penetration??

eriadoc
10-23-2012, 01:25 PM
I do not disagree with you.

However, Kubiak is just calling the plays. I do not think Kubiak looks at 3 and out as a valid strategy. Every play is designed to be successful. Sometimes it is as simple as the players having to execute those plays.

exactly.. if the play call is executed .. then all is good.

when it doesn't. fans are saying "why didn't you do it the other thing?"

I'm kind of tired of beating this dead horse, but in one last attempt to clarify ....

When a coach calls a play and it fails, that's on the players. When the coach calls that play in the same situation later on, that's a coach challenging his players. Somewhere between that point and 6.5 years into his head coaching career, he ought to have developed the ability to recognize when he needs to adjust. If you feel like Kubiak is the master of adjusting, playing the chess game against other coaches, and is generally out-coaching the competition, then there's not much I can say about that. I'm not saying that's how you feel; just putting it in stark contrast.

In addition to that, I almost never want to see a play called that has no chance to succeed. That 3rd and long draw play, especially when you habitually put it on film for everyone to anticipate, is exactly that. No one's saying call a Hail Mary on 3rd and long, but mix it up. Call a screen play, call a clear-out underneath crossing pattern, try a bubble screen, try a pitch play ... hell, ANYTHING that isn't excessively risky. He's built a Super Bowl team. If he can't trust them to run a medium-low risk play without turning the ball over, then they either aren't as good as we all think, or he has a control issue.

ObsiWan
10-23-2012, 01:31 PM
I'm kind of tired of beating this dead horse, but in one last attempt to clarify ....

When a coach calls a play and it fails, that's on the players. When the coach calls that play in the same situation later on, that's a coach challenging his players. Somewhere between that point and 6.5 years into his head coaching career, he ought to have developed the ability to recognize when he needs to adjust. If you feel like Kubiak is the master of adjusting, playing the chess game against other coaches, and is generally out-coaching the competition, then there's not much I can say about that. I'm not saying that's how you feel; just putting it in stark contrast.

In addition to that, I almost never want to see a play called that has no chance to succeed. That 3rd and long draw play, especially when you habitually put it on film for everyone to anticipate, is exactly that. No one's saying call a Hail Mary on 3rd and long, but mix it up. Call a screen play, call a clear-out underneath crossing pattern, try a bubble screen, try a pitch play ... hell, ANYTHING that isn't excessively risky. He's built a Super Bowl team. If he can't trust them to run a medium-low risk play without turning the ball over, then they either aren't as good as we all think, or he has a control issue.

Dude.... Name me a head coach that isn't a control freak (probably on multiple levels) and I'll show you one that's lost his locker room and will soon be unemployed.

eriadoc
10-23-2012, 01:38 PM
Dude.... Name me a head coach that isn't a control freak (probably on multiple levels) and I'll show you one that's lost his locker room and will soon be unemployed.

The good ones don't let it get to the point that it's a detriment to their team.

OilerTexan
11-01-2012, 11:55 PM
Pure speculation, but here goes:

Kuharsky reported that Kubiak called out the Captains this past week.

I do wonder, though, if Matt Schaub had a sit down with Coach K and voiced his own opinions of what had gone wrong...what HAS gone wrong many times when we've lost games we should have won.

Remember Schaub over on the sideline during the early moments of the GB game last Sunday night? He said very plainly (A lot of people in the game thread saw it) "This is BULL****."

Now, what is bull****? GB being GB is not bull****...that's who they had been and should be this year, so it's not GB he's talking about. Is it his fellow teammates who are bull****? I doubt it. Schaub is the consummate professional when it comes to treating his fellow teammates...he's no Jay Cutler.

My theory, and I know it's just a theory, is that there was a mild intervention of some sorts whereby someone or a group of someones voices their displeasure with the conservative nature of this offense.

Look, I know we were winning games up until last week's nightmare. Truth be told, though, we were showing patterns and tendencies of sort of sandbagging it on offense...taking possessions off, so to speak. There were far too many times that this defense was bailing out the offense.

I had said in the early days of Wade's hiring that IF this defense got to be crazy scary awesome...it could become a problem down the line for this team. I'm not talking a full revolt of Buddy Ryan and Kevin Gilbride proportions, I meant that there could exist some turmoil between the two units if a defense is consistently bailing out an offense.

To me, it is arguable that Wade's defense was shouldering far too much of the load in the first 5 games of this season...a trend that was building since last season, IMO. I think the GB game, without Cushing, is where our defense collectively sandbagged it. OK, probably not JJ Watt because he's like a one-man army on every snap and probably in practice too. I'm only theorizing that it's possible that the whole team got into a funk and although Gary had a talk with the Captains, I wonder if someone had a talk with the General himself.

Because what I saw vs. Ravens was THE most electric performance on both sides of the ball. It's not just a coincidence that the defense made Herculean plays all game long, yesterday, after having such a huge turd just a week prior. The offense was shark-like all game long, never stopping and sandbagging it like a traditional Kubiak offense has in the past.

There was aggressiveness not just in play, but in playCALLING as well.

It was the first truly dominant performance I have seen by this team. It's the type of performance you see out of Saints/Patriots/Green Bay. The teams we said we want to emulate in our aggressiveness in terms of play calling.

I'm just saying that it's possible that accountability worked its way upward and not just down the hill this time. I would think that Matt Schaub is the type of leader who would cash in quite a bit of equity that he might have been storing up for a rainy day. Thoughts?

I like this theory. I can imagine ...
<fantasy>
that meeting where Kub tells his captains what he wants, and then there's a pregnant silence. Schaub looks Kubiak directly in the eye and says, "OK, but you need to turn us loose on offense. Let us go for the kill until it's over. Let's play each possession like we're down by 6. If you trust us, we'll win this game by 30 points." Another silence, as everyone in the room realizes that the expression of this sentiment was long in coming. Then Kubiak just says, "Deal."

After the game and the locker room speeches and most have left for home, Schaub and Kubiak just look at each other. Nothing is said, as nothing needs to be said -- Schaub had made his point.
</fantasy>

And if this fantasy meeting did happen, we may see it in this otherwise forgettable game against the Bills. I want to see how aggressive we are if we build up a sizable early lead.

Dread-Head
11-02-2012, 11:27 AM
You guys aren't turtle enough for the turtle club anyway...

thunderkyss
11-02-2012, 12:47 PM
I like this theory. I can imagine ...
<fantasy>
that meeting where Kub tells his captains what he wants, and then there's a pregnant silence. Schaub looks Kubiak directly in the eye and says, "OK, but you need to turn us loose on offense. Let us go for the kill until it's over. Let's play each possession like we're down by 6. If you trust us, we'll win this game by 30 points." Another silence, as everyone in the room realizes that the expression of this sentiment was long in coming. Then Kubiak just says, "Deal."

After the game and the locker room speeches and most have left for home, Schaub and Kubiak just look at each other. Nothing is said, as nothing needs to be said -- Schaub had made his point.
</fantasy>

And if this fantasy meeting did happen, we may see it in this otherwise forgettable game against the Bills. I want to see how aggressive we are if we build up a sizable early lead.

The important words are in bold.

It's not the play calling that doesn't pick up the first downs to stay on the field & take a shot down field.

Double Barrel
11-02-2012, 06:41 PM
I'm kind of tired of beating this dead horse, but in one last attempt to clarify ....

When a coach calls a play and it fails, that's on the players. When the coach calls that play in the same situation later on, that's a coach challenging his players. Somewhere between that point and 6.5 years into his head coaching career, he ought to have developed the ability to recognize when he needs to adjust. If you feel like Kubiak is the master of adjusting, playing the chess game against other coaches, and is generally out-coaching the competition, then there's not much I can say about that. I'm not saying that's how you feel; just putting it in stark contrast.

In addition to that, I almost never want to see a play called that has no chance to succeed. That 3rd and long draw play, especially when you habitually put it on film for everyone to anticipate, is exactly that. No one's saying call a Hail Mary on 3rd and long, but mix it up. Call a screen play, call a clear-out underneath crossing pattern, try a bubble screen, try a pitch play ... hell, ANYTHING that isn't excessively risky. He's built a Super Bowl team. If he can't trust them to run a medium-low risk play without turning the ball over, then they either aren't as good as we all think, or he has a control issue.

Not trying to compare coaches, but Belichick calls a draw play on 3rd and 17 and they get 18 yards and a first down. Genius? Only if it's a success, of course.

I'm no apologist for Kubiak. However, I think some criticism originates from conditioned attitudes from previous years. Not pointing at you as an individual, but just the fan base in general.

I have specifically paid attention to other games and play calling by teams with leads. And what Kubiak does is not much different than any other coach in the league, including ones that have won Super Bowls.

You are right in that "He's built a Super Bowl team." So they should act and perform like it accordingly, if you know what I mean.