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TimeKiller
10-19-2012, 09:15 AM
Why is it a no-go for Barwin to "leap" over the lineman "in the interest of player safety" but it's perfectly fine for a RB to dive over the line to get a TD or a WR to stick the ball out and knock a pylon over, diving his way out?? Seems like the latter is at least as dangerous as trying to block a kick. You also see plenty of guys dive after a ball on the ground, hell, as far as I know football is responsible for dog-piles...guys LEAPING on top of each other...so what's the deal?

While I'm on a rules rant, how unbelievably lame is forward progress? If you keep churning your feet, I say spot the ball where it went down...not leaving it up to a ref to make some imaginary line where he thinks it was before the ball carrier was pushed back. You want the spot where you got stood up? Go down and get it. Trying for more? Effort is nice but I don't think the refs should recognize effort with a few extra yards.

There's a tie-in to the leaping thing as well, like I was saying, ball carriers dives at a pylon (which technically, isn't that lined up out of bounds?) for a score. Doesn't actually get in the endzone, in fact, he purposefully leaps out of bounds, taking down an object whose purpose is to declare boundary. Forward progress says he broke the plane, it's a score.:pissed: Really?

I think the league would do well to even up some of this crap in favor of the defense. The rules are so incredibly geared to proping up an offense anyway, I doubt it would even make much of a difference other than to save my sanity every so often lol...

gtexan02
10-19-2012, 09:53 AM
I think the rule is you can't jump off of another player, not that you can't leap over one

majestrate
10-19-2012, 10:01 AM
Why is it a no-go for Barwin to "leap" over the lineman "in the interest of player safety" but it's perfectly fine for a RB to dive over the line to get a TD or a WR to stick the ball out and knock a pylon over, diving his way out?? Seems like the latter is at least as dangerous as trying to block a kick. You also see plenty of guys dive after a ball on the ground, hell, as far as I know football is responsible for dog-piles...guys LEAPING on top of each other...so what's the deal?

While I'm on a rules rant, how unbelievably lame is forward progress? If you keep churning your feet, I say spot the ball where it went down...not leaving it up to a ref to make some imaginary line where he thinks it was before the ball carrier was pushed back. You want the spot where you got stood up? Go down and get it. Trying for more? Effort is nice but I don't think the refs should recognize effort with a few extra yards.

There's a tie-in to the leaping thing as well, like I was saying, ball carriers dives at a pylon (which technically, isn't that lined up out of bounds?) for a score. Doesn't actually get in the endzone, in fact, he purposefully leaps out of bounds, taking down an object whose purpose is to declare boundary. Forward progress says he broke the plane, it's a score.:pissed: Really?

I think the league would do well to even up some of this crap in favor of the defense. The rules are so incredibly geared to proping up an offense anyway, I doubt it would even make much of a difference other than to save my sanity every so often lol...
Seriously? There's no difference between a player using another player as a stepping stool and a player jumping over a pile? This is a rhetorical question

For a while, I didn't like forward progress, then I got to thinking about it, and I've seen the 5-man gang-ups that pushed a RB back 8 or 9 yards before the whistle blew, and they could've kept going if they had wanted to. It might not be the best way of doing things, but I like forward progress vs just letting the play continue until the ball carrier is down. Otherwise, you get exactly what I described, plays that are -8+ yds because the D got in the backfield and pushed the RB (or QB) back before bringing him down.

I don't really understand your argument about leaping for the endzone and knocking over the pylon. The pylons aren't an extension of the ground, as such, them being touched doesn't define a player has being out of bounds. A player is not out of bounds until a part of their body (or the ball, if it is in play) touches the ground outside the field of play. So, if a player is leaping towards the goal line and angling that leap towards being OOB, they're in-play until part of them (or the ball) touches the ground. If they break the plane of the goal line, then they score. I don't really understand being frustrated or upset about this.

Rey
10-19-2012, 10:32 AM
Field goal is different from those plays you mentioned. The linemen on the kicking team aren't actually firing out and instead are basically interlocking their legs. Pretty dangerous to have your legs locked and for some one to come down on top of you with a running start...

In a short yardage situation where a RB dives over the line (how often do you see this anymore?) the linemen's legs aren't locked into place and you aren't jumping vertically...you are jumping more horizontally...

The leaping penalty is to keep guys from jumping off of other players.

Diving for the pylon is just not comparable in any way. And the pylon is not lined up out of bounds. It's right in the corners.

As far as forward progress....I like the rule the way it is...You don't want to encourage guys to start dropping as soon as they feel contact so they don't get pushed back and give back yards they've earned...

And then, when do the refs blow the whistle? You're going to have people complaining that they waited too long and therefore the defense was able to push their guy back too far and then you are going to have the other team saying they blew the whistle too quick and didn't allow the defense to push them as far back as they could have. That's too much and would be far too inexact...

dream_team
10-19-2012, 12:53 PM
If they got rid of forward progress, you'll get plays where the defender would pick up the offensive player and simply run backwards until someone stops him. As funny as that would look, not good for the game.

Luv_ya_blue
10-20-2012, 12:26 PM
Why is it a no-go for Barwin to "leap" over the lineman "in the interest of player safety" but it's perfectly fine for a RB to dive over the line to get a TD or a WR to stick the ball out and knock a pylon over, diving his way out?? Seems like the latter is at least as dangerous as trying to block a kick. You also see plenty of guys dive after a ball on the ground, hell, as far as I know football is responsible for dog-piles...guys LEAPING on top of each other...so what's the deal?
Leaping is Leaping. It's not OK--or at least "legal" for a RB to leap over the pile. It's just not typically enforced. Neither is "aiding the runner". There are plenty of rules that aren't evenly enforced. Doesn't make it right, but I hope that answers your question.

As to the question of "dog-piles," when players/teams "dogpile" in HS FB, they get a flag--or at least they're supposed to. I know that I've thrown a flag for "piling on." That's the term we use for it.

While I'm on a rules rant, how unbelievably lame is forward progress? If you keep churning your feet, I say spot the ball where it went down...not leaving it up to a ref to make some imaginary line where he thinks it was before the ball carrier was pushed back. You want the spot where you got stood up? Go down and get it. Trying for more? Effort is nice but I don't think the refs should recognize effort with a few extra yards.
Forward progress is also designed (in part) for the safety of the player as well. You don't want a FS running full speed from 25 yds away and blowing up the pile. Not sure what your problem is with "leaving it up to the ref;" 99% of penalties are "left up to the ref." The enforcement and administration of the game is "left up to the ref." But you're right, whether or not a player's "forward progress has stopped" is entirely up to the discretion of the officials. And I have seen some circus calls come out of this gray area.

There's a tie-in to the leaping thing as well, like I was saying, ball carriers dives at a pylon (which technically, isn't that lined up out of bounds?) for a score. Doesn't actually get in the endzone, in fact, he purposefully leaps out of bounds, taking down an object whose purpose is to declare boundary. Forward progress says he broke the plane, it's a score.:pissed: Really?
The goal line extends indefinitely in all directions--plane. That's the reason you can touch the pylon, even if your body is 100% out of bounds.

I think the league would do well to even up some of this crap in favor of the defense. The rules are so incredibly geared to proping up an offense anyway, I doubt it would even make much of a difference other than to save my sanity every so often lol...
Great questions TK, hope this helped a little. Maybe not with the sanity part... :shades:

infantrycak
10-20-2012, 01:10 PM
Leaping is Leaping. It's not OK--or at least "legal" for a RB to leap over the pile. It's just not typically enforced.

In the NFL leaping only applies to field goals and extra points.

Just so folks have the two rules in play:

LEVERAGE
(o) Jumping or standing on a teammate or opponent to block or attempt to block an opponent’s kick.
(p) Placing a hand or hands on a teammate or opponent to gain additional height in the block or attempt
to block an opponent’s kick.
(q) Being picked up by a teammate in a block or an attempt to block an opponent’s kick.
LEAPING
(r) Clearly running forward and leaping in an obvious attempt to block a field goal, or Try-kick after
touchdown and landing on players, unless the leaping player was originally lined up within one yard of
the line of scrimmage when the ball was snapped.

See p. 79, 2011 NFL Rulebook. (http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2011_Rule_Book.pdf)

majestrate
10-20-2012, 01:12 PM
Leaping is Leaping. It's not OK--or at least "legal" for a RB to leap over the pile. It's just not typically enforced. Neither is "aiding the runner". There are plenty of rules that aren't evenly enforced. Doesn't make it right, but I hope that answers your question.
o.O what? Link to that rule please, because I believe you are incorrect.

Granted, it's Wiki, but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_(gridiron_football)#Leaping

Edit: Bah, beaten by infantrycak *shakefist* At least your source is more legit than mine :D

Luv_ya_blue
10-20-2012, 10:34 PM
In the NFL leaping only applies to field goals and extra points.

Just so folks have the two rules in play:

See p. 79, 2011 NFL Rulebook. (http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2011_Rule_Book.pdf)

o.O what? Link to that rule please, because I believe you are incorrect.

Granted, it's Wiki, but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_(gridiron_football)#Leaping

Edit: Bah, beaten by infantrycak *shakefist* At least your source is more legit than mine :D


Cak is right.
I was thinking of HS.