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Double Barrel
10-18-2012, 03:22 PM
Jets linebacker Calvin Pace says Pats run “borderline illegal” offense

Calvin Pace says the Pats’ fast paced offense has always been a challenge, and now stopping it is even tougher.

“It’s borderline illegal because sometimes the guys aren’t always set when they snap the ball,” Pace said Wednesday. “But it’s smart. Why not hurry a team up? I wish we would do it. For a defense, it just puts pressure on you.”

The Patriot’s no-huddle tactic kicks the offense tempo up a notch, leaving some teams scrambling. The Patriots have run 473 plays, 39 more than the next.

“It’s very difficult,” linebacker David Harris said. “You’ll see defenses not even lined up and they’re already running a play. They get a lot of extra yardage because of it. It causes guys to lose their mind. You can see it on film.”

No huddle / hurry up offense has been around for decades.

Is this guy saying it's not "fair"? Kinda' sounds a little whiny for an NFL football player, if you ask me. :cry2:

eriadoc
10-18-2012, 03:27 PM
No huddle / hurry up offense has been around for decades.

Is this guy saying it's not "fair"? Kinda' sounds a little whiny for an NFL football player, if you ask me. :cry2:

The players are still supposed to set before they snap the ball. It's something that has definitely gotten worse over the years. I swear to God that Peyton Manning would never have gotten away with his BS in the '80s. Frankly, the QBs do the head bobbing, shoulder jerking false starts that used to be called but no longer really are.

So for Pace to say that they're not setting before they snap seems plausible to me. But I haven't watched much Pats ball, so just a general comment.

Double Barrel
10-18-2012, 03:34 PM
What is the rule? The offense has to wait for the defense to set? What is to stop a defense from taking their time in getting set, thus slowing down the offense?

Just curious about the rule, as I have always been under the impression that the offense could snap once the ball is set and the whistle is blown.

Rey
10-18-2012, 03:47 PM
I think he is saying that the offense isn't set when they hike the ball...

Double Barrel
10-18-2012, 04:09 PM
I think he is saying that the offense isn't set when they hike the ball...

ahh, that would make more sense to me.

I'm not saying it's true, need to see video, but a hurry up offense waiting for a defense just seem to undermine the whole point.

Rey
10-18-2012, 04:17 PM
ahh, that would make more sense to me.

I'm not saying it's true, need to see video, but a hurry up offense waiting for a defense just seem to undermine the whole point.

I would need to see it too...

But I don't believe there is any time frame that an offense has to be set for. Basically, the nano second everyone on the offense is legally lined up and set I believe they can hike the ball.

Maybe he feels like they are doing the Cali stop at a stop sign instead of doing a full stop...:shrug:

Vinny
10-18-2012, 04:44 PM
What is the rule? The offense has to wait for the defense to set? What is to stop a defense from taking their time in getting set, thus slowing down the offense?

Just curious about the rule, as I have always been under the impression that the offense could snap once the ball is set and the whistle is blown.
To my knowledge once the officials tell the clock to start the offense can snap the ball as long as they are set regardless of what the defense is doing.

gtexan02
10-18-2012, 04:48 PM
I think its legal, but I also think its cheap.
Trying to catch a defense in the middle of a substitution is a little bush league to me

Its fair by the rules, but its taking advantage of the purpose of the rule

Double Barrel
10-18-2012, 04:52 PM
To my knowledge once the officials tell the clock to start the offense can snap the ball as long as they are set regardless of what the defense is doing.

My thoughts, as well.

I think its legal, but I also think its cheap.
Trying to catch a defense in the middle of a substitution is a little bush league to me

Its fair by the rules, but its taking advantage of the purpose of the rule

I completely disagree. If it's legal, then it's just another strategy to employ in a game full of strategies. Bush league to me is what Tampa Bay was doing at the end of games during victory formations. JMO

The thing is that the opposing team can do it, too (Calvin Pace even wishes his own team would use this tactic).

I wish the Texans would pull this out sometimes. It's a good way to disrupt any rhythm that the defense might be finding, and winning the game is all that really matters at the end of the day. There are no asterisks besides wins and championships.

eriadoc
10-18-2012, 05:18 PM
ahh, that would make more sense to me.

I'm not saying it's true, need to see video, but a hurry up offense waiting for a defense just seem to undermine the whole point.

The posters below me summed it up pretty well. I was just saying that in decades past, the offense wasn't set if the QB was waving his arms around, snapping his head to and fro, motioning this way and that, and the OL was moving around. The closest thing to crazy back then was the Cowboys OL standing up in unison and then setting, but even that had a clear stopping point at the bottom before they snapped the ball.

I couldn't care less if the defense is ready. They need to be quicker. :)

BeerTastesLikeVictory
10-18-2012, 05:18 PM
I swear to God that Peyton Manning would never have gotten away with his BS in the '80s. Frankly, the QBs do the head bobbing, shoulder jerking false starts that used to be called but no longer really are.



IIRC, Rivers got a couple penalties last Monday for throwing his hands out during a hard count before the ball was snapped. However I don't remember seeing Mr. Manning getting the same treatment for his hard count moves.

Double Barrel
10-18-2012, 05:46 PM
The posters below me summed it up pretty well. I was just saying that in decades past, the offense wasn't set if the QB was waving his arms around, snapping his head to and fro, motioning this way and that, and the OL was moving around. The closest thing to crazy back then was the Cowboys OL standing up in unison and then setting, but even that had a clear stopping point at the bottom before they snapped the ball.

I couldn't care less if the defense is ready. They need to be quicker. :)

My fault for reading your post wrong. Now that I look at it from that perspective, I get exactly what you're saying.

I know this dude is mouthing off because the Jets play the Patriots this week. He's hoping the league tells officials to pay more attention the the Pats no huddle offense.

For some reason, I've just grown to really dislike the Jets the past few years. Not sure why, but something about them just rubs me the wrong way. Maybe it's all the undeserved hype or something...

majestrate
10-19-2012, 09:21 AM
IIRC, Rivers got a couple penalties last Monday for throwing his hands out during a hard count before the ball was snapped. However I don't remember seeing Mr. Manning getting the same treatment for his hard count moves.
The BS thing is that on the first call, he barely moved his head. On the second call, he hadn't moved at all. That official was a jacknape and should've been punched until his vision cleared up.

signed,
a fantasy football owner with phillip rivers as one of his QBs, still a bit upset at how that game turned out

majestrate
10-19-2012, 09:23 AM
My fault for reading your post wrong. Now that I look at it from that perspective, I get exactly what you're saying.

I know this dude is mouthing off because the Jets play the Patriots this week. He's hoping the league tells officials to pay more attention the the Pats no huddle offense.

For some reason, I've just grown to really dislike the Jets the past few years. Not sure why, but something about them just rubs me the wrong way. Maybe it's all the undeserved hype or something...
Blame it all on Rex Ryan, that's what I do, and I think it works. That pompous ass.

drs23
10-19-2012, 07:17 PM
[B]What is the rule? The offense has to wait for the defense to set? What is to stop a defense from taking their time in getting set, thus slowing down the offense?

Just curious about the rule, as I have always been under the impression that the offense could snap once the ball is set and the whistle is blown.

The offense has to be "set" for 1 second. It's been that way for ever and Peyton with the Colts, Brady now, and I'm sure a few others are blatantly ignoring it and getting away with.

But then, as I've read here before, this ain't the game your Daddy/Grandpa knew. And me for that matter.

The rules are now out the window and IMO bsht. A rule is a rule.

The play the Panthers ran at the goal line last season is a prime example. Every lineman standing up, moving around, swinging arms, moving feet and then Cam hands the ball to another guy who wasn't set. We all saw it. Illegal as hell but a score. YouTube it and see if you think it follows the rules. Let me save you some time. It DIDN'T. Absolutely an illegal play. The score stood and I was and still am livid.

Same thing with Peyton and others as well.

Total BS!

Opposing opinions?

infantrycak
10-19-2012, 11:03 PM
The posters below me summed it up pretty well. I was just saying that in decades past, the offense wasn't set if the QB was waving his arms around, snapping his head to and fro, motioning this way and that, and the OL was moving around. The closest thing to crazy back then was the Cowboys OL standing up in unison and then setting, but even that had a clear stopping point at the bottom before they snapped the ball.

The Texans sent video of Manning and the Colts asking why they were not being flagged. The league basically said Manning gets to do what he wants. Total BS.

They also used to have multiple WR, TE or RB moving in to hear Manning at the same time which should have drawn flags as well.

powda
10-19-2012, 11:15 PM
I dont get why more offenses dont hurry up all the time. Once the defense has the wrong personnel in its clearly an advantage. It's almost like taking the defensive coordinator out of the equation to. I think some offensive coordinators either have no faith in their qb or they have such egos they choose not to take advantage.

thunderkyss
10-19-2012, 11:31 PM
I dont get why more offenses dont hurry up all the time. Once the defense has the wrong personnel in its clearly an advantage. It's almost like taking the defensive coordinator out of the equation to. I think some offensive coordinators either have no faith in their qb or they have such egos they choose not to take advantage.

There are only so many plays you can run from a single formation or personnel package. It makes it a little more predictable.

Unless you have a very mature offense, like the Pats do & the Colts did, where you can add many plays per package, it would only be a matter of time before the defense catches you.

powda
10-19-2012, 11:43 PM
There are only so many plays you can run from a single formation or personnel package. It makes it a little more predictable.

Unless you have a very mature offense, like the Pats do & the Colts did, where you can add many plays per package, it would only be a matter of time before the defense catches you.

Ehh. I dont know that I can agree with this. Some offenses (like a joe pendry style lol) might become predictible. Some coordinators have a hundred or more plays they can run out of a single formation. An offense like the raiders probably couldnt pull it off regularly but kubiak could. Have you see his denny's menu errr play card?

thunderkyss
10-20-2012, 12:23 AM
Ehh. I dont know that I can agree with this. Some offenses (like a joe pendry style lol) might become predictible. Some coordinators have a hundred or more plays they can run out of a single formation. An offense like the raiders probably couldnt pull it off regularly but kubiak could. Have you see his denny's menu errr play card?

I think we're saying the same thing. With Schaub & most of this offense.. Aj, OD, KDub, Chris Myers.... being here for 6 years in this offense, I'm sure we could pull it off.

The Chargers, not so much. High probability their going to throw the ball. With a decent pass rush..... there's only so many routes you need to cover.... You get what you had last week.

paycheck71
10-20-2012, 05:56 PM
Here's an excerpt from a VERY good article about the Patriots offense.

The Patriots operate their no-huddle attack most often using one word as the play call.

More accurately, they use six one-word play calls a game.

That word tells all 11 players on offense everything they need to know.

Formation.

Blocking scheme.

Direction on run plays.

Routes for receiver on passing plays.

Shifts in formations.

Snap count.

Possible alerts and play alterations.

One word.

You can read the whole article HERE (http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2012/10/08/patriots-huddle-relies-power-one/nHTapuVnBOwfFlffwTrN6J/story.html).

powda
10-21-2012, 10:42 AM
Rep! Great read

The Pencil Neck
10-22-2012, 03:38 PM
I dont get why more offenses dont hurry up all the time. Once the defense has the wrong personnel in its clearly an advantage. It's almost like taking the defensive coordinator out of the equation to. I think some offensive coordinators either have no faith in their qb or they have such egos they choose not to take advantage.

This is the "new thing" around the league (even though it's been tried over and over again over the years.) Lots of teams are trying to run a no huddle approach to minimize substitutions and to wear defenses down.

BUT.

You've got to have a good, disciplined team and a smart QB to make it work. If you don't have that, then it can actually turn around and be a benefit to the defense because the offense can also become prone to mental mistakes.

SCOTTexans
10-26-2012, 12:21 PM
The players are still supposed to set before they snap the ball. It's something that has definitely gotten worse over the years. I swear to God that Peyton Manning would never have gotten away with his BS in the '80s. Frankly, the QBs do the head bobbing, shoulder jerking false starts that used to be called but no longer really are.

So for Pace to say that they're not setting before they snap seems plausible to me. But I haven't watched much Pats ball, so just a general comment.

The No-Huddle attack also has the same effect on the refs as it does the defense. The refs have a small window to call any penalties so of course most are going to be missed... That what makes the No-Huddle attack so special, its based on other peoples mistakes. The jets put that out there so they can remind the officials to watch out for it and hopefully it slows them down. It didnt work because the refs have turned gun shy for all the bad calls in the past. They won't call these because no other officials have been calling it. Easy way out.... or they are just incompetent....

welsh texan
10-29-2012, 03:11 AM
For some reason, I've just grown to really dislike the Jets the past few years. Not sure why, but something about them just rubs me the wrong way. Maybe it's all the undeserved hype or something...

It pissed me off bigtime when their fans were lining the streets for their SuperBowl homecoming couple of years ago that time Nnamdi Asomugha was either signing for us or them and we flinched first and signed JoJo. Meaning they had Revis and Nnamdi in their D backfield.

Their fans were classless back then, totally classless, and they got what they deserved, they were off the back of 2 fairly flukey AFC Championship Game appearances and when they beat us to Aso that was it...SuperBowl!

Well now who's ****ing laughing?

I hate the Jets.