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View Full Version : Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year


stingray
10-14-2012, 08:50 PM
If they don't blitz or J.J. doesn't get pressure then pressure is really non existent. We have been getting away with it because we have faced the likes of Gabbert/Tannehill/locker/Sanchez. If this team is gonna make any noise in the playoffs, Barwin/Reed/A. Smith are going to have to step it up. Simple as that.

TheIronDuke
10-14-2012, 08:58 PM
I think we can pretty much count on Barwin doing absolutely nothing all year. I trust Wade to figure something out.

Honoring Earl 34
10-14-2012, 09:00 PM
I'd try Mercilus and Braman at this point .

wolf123
10-14-2012, 09:03 PM
Getting no pressure from the Edges.. JJ watt has to do everything.:vincepalm:

ItsMyFault
10-14-2012, 09:03 PM
It's pathetic to watch. No pass rush at all.

Texecutioner
10-14-2012, 09:08 PM
Well, what in the hell is Mercilous going to do?? I mean, is that guy even up to snuff to play like a real NFL player? That's a serious question, because I haven't seen or heard his name at all this season hardly. Is he really that bad at practice that our coaching staff won't even give him opportunities to make plays? Hell this is a #1 draft pick. Normally these guys are starters or at least playing half the time.

You guys may not like what you're seeing from Barwin, but Mercilous obviously isn't doing anything to give the coaches any confidence.

Fili
10-14-2012, 09:08 PM
Antonio Smith had an ankle injury and was probable.

Honoring Earl 34
10-14-2012, 09:24 PM
Well, what in the hell is Mercilous going to do?? I mean, is that guy even up to snuff to play like a real NFL player? That's a serious question, because I haven't seen or heard his name at all this season hardly. Is he really that bad at practice that our coaching staff won't even give him opportunities to make plays? Hell this is a #1 draft pick. Normally these guys are starters or at least playing half the time.

You guys may not like what you're seeing from Barwin, but Mercilous obviously isn't doing anything to give the coaches any confidence.

Barwin , Mercilus , and Braman have the same number of sacks .

Texecutioner
10-14-2012, 09:37 PM
Barwin , Mercilus , and Braman have the same number of sacks .

I don't really care about sack numbers completely. I just want to see constant pressure. Sacks have always been somewhat of an overrated stat to some degree. QB hurries is the real indicator. I'm not saying that Barwin is playing just fine, but what the hell is going on with this rookie? This Mercilous guy doesn't seem to have any confidence at all from the coaching staff.

Rey
10-14-2012, 10:15 PM
When we made the merciless pick A thought actually popped into my head that it was a panic move.

Like they were expecting someone else to be there but when they weren't they panicked and picked merciless.

I've been against that pick since it was first announced and I could never understand it. He had good numbers in college, but I when I watched the film he had 0 burst, was not aggressive. Didn't play with a lot of passion. He does have a decent motor, but to me that's his best attribute.

The few times I've seen merci in the game he's looked worse than he did in college.

I honestly expected more out of barwin. But after watching him this season I'm honestly ready to see Braman.

I'm pleased with reed. He has played his position well. He is the solb and he sees a lot of runs at him.

Barwin is the wolb and is supposed to be your sack guy. He looks rather regular.

DX-TEX
10-14-2012, 10:16 PM
Barwin needs to stop focusing on being a hipster ********* and blogging for the Houston Press and focus on actually showing up for games again.

Mr teX
10-14-2012, 10:17 PM
Barwin is trash....dude hasnt been a factor all season

Rey
10-14-2012, 10:17 PM
what the hell is going on with this rookie? This Mercilous guy doesn't seem to have any confidence at all from the coaching staff.

Don't know about practice, but he's looked awfully timid the times he's gotten in the game.

I hate to say it, but he looks soft.

fiasco west
10-14-2012, 10:18 PM
Wade is going to have to do something.

Cushing would rush some too though.

Really this is the only game our pass rush has looked bad and frankly I think Wade called a scared game today.

Also Barwin sucks.

Texecutioner
10-14-2012, 10:19 PM
Don't know about practice, but he's looked awfully timid the times he's gotten in the game.

I hate to say it, but he looks soft.

Sort of my initial thoughts from what I've seen as well. Haven't seen him enough though. I haven't heard anything about practice either. I just figured that he must not be showing jack at practice for him to be absent from the field so much.

Luv_ya_blue
10-14-2012, 10:19 PM
Would very much like to see Brahman get into the mix.
The kid really brings the hat.
Intensity is what we need badly right now.
Would be nice to have somebody other than JJ come to play some football.

Mr. Texan
10-14-2012, 10:20 PM
Barwin needs to stop focusing on being a hipster ********* and blogging for the Houston Press and focus on actually showing up for games again.

LOL truuuuuuuuuu

Rey
10-14-2012, 10:22 PM
Sort of my initial thoughts from what I've seen as well. Haven't seen him enough though. I haven't heard anything about practice either. I just figured that he must not be showing jack at practice for him to be absent from the field so much.

Well, he's in the game now so we'll see...

Texecutioner
10-14-2012, 10:23 PM
Would very much like to see Brahman get into the mix.
The kid really brings the hat.
Intensity is what we need badly right now.
Would be nice to have somebody other than JJ come to play some football.

Good call LYB.


He just answered your request.

Rey
10-14-2012, 10:23 PM
More Braman please...

Luv_ya_blue
10-14-2012, 10:23 PM
BRAHMAN with the BLOCKED PUNT for a TD.

He's just intense, all the way around!!!

Bleed_Blu_Red
10-14-2012, 10:23 PM
Barwin actually looked better then he has all season at least twice he should of had a sack but couldn't finish that happens. Antonio hasn't done a damn thing been disappointing so far this yr. Reed has got pressure got some sacks and besides that he doesn't always rush we use him to cover Te's or Rb's. Mercilus hell he doesn't even see the field.

fiasco west
10-14-2012, 10:24 PM
Barwin actually looked better then he has all season at least twice he should of had a sack but couldn't finish that happens. Antonio hasn't done a damn thing been disappointing so far this yr. Reed has got pressure got some sacks and besides that he doesn't always rush we use him to cover Te's or Rb's. Mercilus hell he doesn't even see the field.

Whatever good Barwin did today was negated by his silly pointless jump that took away a defensive stop. Instead Manning had to show that he could make a more boneheaded play and the Packers ended with 7.

Rey
10-14-2012, 10:28 PM
Barwin actually looked better then he has all season at least twice he should of had a sack but couldn't finish that happens. Antonio hasn't done a damn thing been disappointing so far this yr. Reed has got pressure got some sacks and besides that he doesn't always rush we use him to cover Te's or Rb's. Mercilus hell he doesn't even see the field.

Watt might have you spoiled a bit. Interior d linemen don't usually get a bunch of sacks. Antonio has been fine. Hes pushed the pocket and has gotten good pressure.

Barwin has done some good things liked tipped passes, but in this defense his primary job as wolb is to rush the passer. He's not been good at that. He's not getting doubled. They aren't paying a bunch of attention to him. He's just not been great at bringing pressure.

Bleed_Blu_Red
10-14-2012, 10:30 PM
Whatever good Barwin did today was negated by his silly pointless jump that took away a defensive stop. Instead Manning had to show that he could make a more boneheaded play and the Packers ended with 7.

Agree

Luv_ya_blue
10-14-2012, 10:30 PM
Watt might have you spoiled a bit. Interior d linemen don't usually get a bunch of sacks. Antonio has been fine. Hes pushed the pocket and has gotten good pressure.

Barwin has done some good things liked tipped passes, but in this defense his primary job as wolb is to rush the passer. He's not been good at that. He's not getting doubled. They aren't paying a bunch of attention to him. He's just not been great at bringing pressure.

Hence the reason so many believe that HE SUCKS!

Rey
10-14-2012, 10:36 PM
I don't really care about sack numbers completely. I just want to see constant pressure. Sacks have always been somewhat of an overrated stat to some degree. QB hurries is the real indicator. I'm not saying that Barwin is playing just fine, but what the hell is going on with this rookie? This Mercilous guy doesn't seem to have any confidence at all from the coaching staff.


I'm with you on the sacks. I just want consistent pressure.

Thing is though, it's week 6. If you have been at least getting good pressure consistently you'd have more than the amount of sacks you and I have combined.

Damn, can I just see half a sack?

Bleed_Blu_Red
10-14-2012, 10:37 PM
Watt might have you spoiled a bit. Interior d linemen don't usually get a bunch of sacks. Antonio has been fine. Hes pushed the pocket and has gotten good pressure.

Barwin has done some good things liked tipped passes, but in this defense his primary job as wolb is to rush the passer. He's not been good at that. He's not getting doubled. They aren't paying a bunch of attention to him. He's just not been great at bringing pressure.

Trust me I know, I've been a Antonio fan since he came here I don't expect him to get 10 plus sacks but he is good enough to get a sack every two games he isn't even close to playing up to years past.

Ask for Barwin I'm not one of these fans who expected Barwin to replicate last yrs numbers, nor do I constantly trash him its going to be wk.6 he will come around.

JamesBill
10-14-2012, 10:38 PM
Hence the reason so many believe that HE SUCKS!

at least we aren't paying this ******* hipster. Feel free to go play for san fran and talk crap like Babin.

Texecutioner
10-14-2012, 11:03 PM
I'm with you on the sacks. I just want consistent pressure.

Thing is though, it's week 6. If you have been at least getting good pressure consistently you'd have more than the amount of sacks you and I have combined.

Damn, can I just see half a sack?

Agree 100%

JVL713
10-14-2012, 11:10 PM
Barwin has been partying it up WAY too much. I was scared this would happen, he is basically a regular on Washington.

Rey
10-14-2012, 11:25 PM
Trust me I know, I've been a Antonio fan since he came here I don't expect him to get 10 plus sacks but he is good enough to get a sack every two games he isn't even close to playing up to years past.

Ask for Barwin I'm not one of these fans who expected Barwin to replicate last yrs numbers, nor do I constantly trash him its going to be wk.6 he will come around.

I didn't expect barwin to be this mediocre. I thought he was at least above average.

Barwin had a little less than half his sacks in one game last year so i didn't think hed be some dominant force, but damn...

He's not even playing at sidekick level right now. Forget about robin, he's barely even Alfred.

Wolf
10-14-2012, 11:30 PM
Whatever good Barwin did today was negated by his silly pointless jump that took away a defensive stop. Instead Manning had to show that he could make a more boneheaded play and the Packers ended with 7.

Looking at the replay. I think manning,was more like "tapping" out and not punching but was a trying to say that the guy needs to get up fast, his leg was pinned awkwardly.

BullNation4Life
10-14-2012, 11:32 PM
Looking at the replay. I think manning,was more like "tapping" out and not punching but was a trying to say that the guy needs to get up fast, his leg was pinned awkwardly.

I agree, except you don't tap out with a clinched fist...

He'll get a fine for that...

Wolf
10-14-2012, 11:34 PM
I agree, except you don't tap out with a clinched fist...

He'll get a fine for that...

I thought he had an open hand And did three quick taps when I saw it. I could have been wrong

Hervoyel
10-14-2012, 11:36 PM
Barwin , Mercilus , and Braman have the same number of sacks .


Indeed but one of them is getting a lot of chances to make his number go up while the other two are not. I'd kind of like to see Mercilus play more too. It's not like Conner is having a repeat of his 2011 campaign. He's actually looking a lot more like he did in 2010 when he was on the sideline hurt. At least in terms of sacks.

wolf123
10-15-2012, 12:02 AM
The Green Bay RT is absolutely terrible and Brooks Reed did nothing against him... Both OLB are really struggling against even bad players.

dream_team
10-15-2012, 12:29 AM
I know this was a total team loss... but if I had to stick this loss on one person, it would be Connor Barwin. In this defense, Connor plays the position that is supposed to constantly put pressure on the QB. He hasn't done it all season, and today, it cost us greatly.

In order to beat the elite QBs in this league, our front four HAS to be able to pressure the QB. You saw what happened today when we blitz and put single coverage on the receivers. An elite QB, and a good receiver, will win ALL the time. Even though the DB had good single coverage alot of times, Rodgers put the ball right on the money, and the receivers made great catches.

And when the Texans didn't blitz, the Pack simply doubled Watt, and Rodgers had all day to throw. You can't give these QBs all day to throw because someone will eventually get open.

Connor is supposed to be a Pro-Bowl pass rusher, so he needs to start acting like one. He even actually had a chance at a sack, but probably shocked himself that he touched a QB, and forgot to finish the tackle.

If we want to make it to the Super Bowl, we'll have to be elite QBs, so Connor is going to have to figure it out. Or we at least need Mercilus show us why he was highly touted.

Bleed_Blu_Red
10-15-2012, 12:35 AM
I didn't expect barwin to be this mediocre. I thought he was at least above average.

Barwin had a little less than half his sacks in one game last year so i didn't think hed be some dominant force, but damn...

He's not even playing at sidekick level right now. Forget about robin, he's barely even Alfred.

Hahaha I hear ya still plenty of season left. worst case scenario if he doesn't produce saves us money for not resigning him to use on GQ and players for next yr.

Vinny
10-15-2012, 12:39 AM
With Cushing out the two best players in this front7 are 3-4 DE's (Watt and Smith). With no edge rush its hard to beat great passing offenses.

noxiousdog
10-15-2012, 12:52 AM
With Cushing out the two best players in this front7 are 3-4 DE's (Watt and Smith). With no edge rush its hard to beat great passing offenses.

Concur. I watched every passing down of the Jets game on coaches film and Barwin was awful. Absolutely completely manhandled every play. Furgeson just threw him on the ground repeatedly.


Tonight didn't look all that different.

I guess the good news is he's not going to hurt the salary cap.

76Texan
10-15-2012, 01:02 AM
Wade Phillips sucks!

dream_team
10-15-2012, 01:11 AM
Wade Phillips sucks!

Haha... I was waiting for that! I know you're just joking, but I'm surprised Wade hasn't been getting bashed in here like he should be. IMO, the defense played worse than the offense.

76Texan
10-15-2012, 01:13 AM
Haha... I was waiting for that! I know you're just joking, but I'm surprised Wade hasn't been getting bashed in here like he should be. IMO, the defense played worse than the offense.

I'm only half joking! :turtle:

Who drafted Mercilus?

Who is responsible for how many snaps a player get?

Who is responsible to ramp up the outside pass rush?

thunderkyss
10-15-2012, 01:49 AM
I'm just going to say last year we had a guy for the first five weeks of the season who could rush the passer from the outside. Though we don't like to give him a lot of credit, because it didn't "look" like he gave 100% effort on every play, everyone across the DL (with the exception of Cody) was getting to the QB.

Even the reserves like Brooks Reed & Tim Jamison had a sack or a few QB pressures by this time last year. When that guy was in the game, we didn't have to rush the ILBs, they focused on stopping the run. We didn't have to blitz our DBs, they focused on defending the pass.

When that guy went out, we started blitzing the ILB, then our DBs. That guy had led the team in sacks for 6 weeks after he left due to injuries.

When that guy left via free agency, outside pass rusher became our #1 priority in the offseason. We drafted one guy.

But we had a third year player who looked like the pass rusher we needed, Connor Barwin. However, he only had one good year, after being hurt week 1 of his sophomore year. Could we trust him to come back & do it again? Be productive in his 4th season? A contract year?

We also had two phenominal rookies, Jj Watt & Brooks Reed. Would the sophomore slump catch up to these guys? Jj Watt...... not yet. Brooks? He's shown flashes.

But yes, our biggest problem this year is our pass rush. We simply do not appear to have enough talent among the front four to consistently pressure QBs with average or better OLs.

Time to panic?

I don't think so. Why? Wade.

Up until today, our guys have been learning the theory. You could tell, watching as they tried to rotate on the back end through various blitz packages. Tomorrow, they're going to look at the film, they're going to match that theory with the practical lessons they learned today. They'll have a good week of practice. It won't be perfect next week. But by the time December & January comes around..... I'm getting excited, thinking about it.

Luv_ya_blue
10-15-2012, 06:25 AM
I thought he had an open hand And did three quick taps when I saw it. I could have been wrong

Completely irrelevant.
Rule book says "throwing a punch" can happen with either a closed fist or open palm. Throwing hands in any capacity is illegal.

Honoring Earl 34
10-15-2012, 06:40 AM
Indeed but one of them is getting a lot of chances to make his number go up while the other two are not. I'd kind of like to see Mercilus play more too. It's not like Conner is having a repeat of his 2011 campaign. He's actually looking a lot more like he did in 2010 when he was on the sideline hurt. At least in terms of sacks.

The bad thing is Seattle sacked Rogers 7 times in the 1st half . Chris Clemons had 4 sacks for the game .

On a sidenote ... Barwin is costing himself a bunch of money .

TimeKiller
10-15-2012, 07:54 AM
One big thing I'm having trouble with is with Cushing done, with the most used 5th pass rushing option done, why are they trying to fill in THAT with GQ??? I mean, Quin can bring the hammer but that's as a safety. Trying to stick him in at LB is basically screaming "RUN THE BALL AT ME!" He'll get eaten alive by any OL, giving up probably at least 100 pounds to every starter in the league.

Anyway, my point is since Cushing is out, you don't have to replace him with a guy standing in the middle. It could very well be Mercilus that picks up that pass rushing slack, at a completely different position.

Rey
10-15-2012, 08:32 AM
One big thing I'm having trouble with is with Cushing done, with the most used 5th pass rushing option done, why are they trying to fill in THAT with GQ??? I mean, Quin can bring the hammer but that's as a safety. Trying to stick him in at LB is basically screaming "RUN THE BALL AT ME!" He'll get eaten alive by any OL, giving up probably at least 100 pounds to every starter in the league.

Anyway, my point is since Cushing is out, you don't have to replace him with a guy standing in the middle. It could very well be Mercilus that picks up that pass rushing slack, at a completely different position.

Looked like to me Quinn was playing about the same role he's been playing since last year when we go nickel and dime.

SwoLy-D
10-15-2012, 08:41 AM
It was a stellar offensive line for which we did not have an answer. That was the difference between this and the previous games. They are that much smarter than our DEs and nose tackles. :o The previous OLs did not know how to handle our 3-4'ish rush.

Better yet, Watt was being doubled and whoever was left 1 on 1 with Barwin and the OLB who played the edge were better than our line. :(

Vinny
10-15-2012, 11:29 AM
didn't read the thread, but I think the dline is playing well...the LB's are another story.

Scooter
10-15-2012, 12:36 PM
our OLB's seem to be causing more trouble for our own guys than the opponents'. too many times i'll see them push wide and then stunt nowhere - effectively leading their blocker into the DE for a double team while the OLB does nothing.

Grams
10-15-2012, 12:43 PM
Wade Phillips sucks!

Think he needs to spend more time on worrying about being the DC for the Texans than what Head Coaching job he can get next year.

This defense is no where near what the defense was last year. We have 1 guy that can actually get to the QB. When he was being blocked by 3 OL - where was the rest of the DL?????

The defense should have had a field day against GB. We made then look real good last night.

We did not look good against the Jets either. If we cannot come back and crush the Ravens, we will be lucky to finish 8-8.

TimeKiller
10-15-2012, 02:45 PM
Looked like to me Quinn was playing about the same role he's been playing since last year when we go nickel and dime.

Then maybe it was Cushing next to him allowing that to be a succesful package, but Bradie James and GQ aren't enough to handle run stopping in ANY package, let alone one without a true NT.

76Texan
10-15-2012, 02:51 PM
Then maybe it was Cushing next to him allowing that to be a succesful package, but Bradie James and GQ aren't enough to handle run stopping in ANY package, let alone one without a true NT.

Against a single-back, 3 WR set, every team in the league counter with the same defensive personnel like we did.

They'd be in nickel or dime, depending on down and distance and how the DC likes to go about it on certain "special" occasion.

Double Barrel
10-15-2012, 03:43 PM
The "bulls on parade" defense looked more like "fools on charades" last night. Massive hole where Cushing used to be - get used to it - and weak sauce pressure from the ends put our coverage in a position to get burned all night. The Texans did get to make history last night. 6 TD passes are now a Green Bay record. Yeah, that's nice.

76Texan
10-15-2012, 03:54 PM
Can a player win Defensive Player of the week after a loss?

"After a pair of sacks on Sunday night in the loss to Green Bay, defensive end J.J. Watt regained the NFLís sack lead with nine. Throw in four tackles for loss and three quarterback hurries, and Watt filled in the stat sheet once again in 2012."

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/JJ-Watt-draws-praise-from-Packers/a5fbeed6-2c31-4805-8322-aa4d271a7541

The guy is just a monster.
I salute, you, Mr. Watt!

http://www.houstontexans.com/assets/images/imported/HOU/400wattpack.jpg

GuerillaBlack
10-15-2012, 04:03 PM
The "bulls on parade" defense looked more like "fools on charades" last night. Massive hole where Cushing used to be - get used to it - and weak sauce pressure from the ends put our coverage in a position to get burned all night. The Texans did get to make history last night. 6 TD passes are now a Green Bay record. Yeah, that's nice.

I'm just hoping that Ruud will be better.

stingray
10-21-2012, 04:36 PM
Amazing what a pass rush does for your team. This team is almost unbeatable when they have their pass rush going.

PandapuffTexan
10-21-2012, 04:40 PM
idk they looked pretty good agaisnt the ravens..

Ranger Tom
10-21-2012, 05:39 PM
idk they looked pretty good agaisnt the ravens..

Heck yeah they did; really came alive today. I wonder if the defense' new nickname should be "The SWAT Team" because of how many passes they knocked down.

thunderkyss
10-21-2012, 07:10 PM
Amazing what a pass rush does for your team. This team is almost unbeatable when they have their pass rush going.

It's the lead.

We managed the clock very well in the first half, had twice the T.O.P. than the Ravens. Our O stayed on the field, our D kept them off the field. Second half, could have gone either way. We got the defensive stop, then the offensive score... & it was ovah... They abandoned the run, started looking for big plays & our defense fed off of it.

Rey
10-21-2012, 09:01 PM
Merci looked a lot more comfortable today. Definitely more burst off the snap than what's been out there previously.

Wade deserves a lot of this credit. Not sure what happned last week, but we had better match ups and more free guys coming this week than we had previously.

Both barwin and merciless had a few free runs at the qb. Whatever happened today needs to keep happening.

Brisco_County
10-21-2012, 09:14 PM
I think a couple of factors made the difference. First, our defense had an extra game to adjust to life without Cushing. That's a huge factor, since it includes a week of self-diagnosis from film study that they didn't have before the Green Bay game. Secondly, the Ravens thought that double teaming Watt was a solution. It may have created more problems for them, since it concealed the point of attack by the opportunistic pass rusher.

hradhak
10-21-2012, 09:22 PM
... Secondly, the Ravens thought that double teaming Watt was a solution. It may have created more problems for them, since it concealed the point of attack by the opportunistic pass rusher.

Did they actually double up on Watt? I didn't watch closely enough, but if so that is very good to hear. If you try and shutdown Watt, you have the rest of the line to deal with. I personally thought Barwin has been having a few good games, just wasn't getting on the stat board. And even with a double team, Watt had a tipped pass that ended up being a pick 6.

Just goes to show you that our 5 pass rushers > 5 o lineman. I like that math. :evil:

Brisco_County
10-21-2012, 09:40 PM
Did they actually double up on Watt? I didn't watch closely enough, but if so that is very good to hear. If you try and shutdown Watt, you have the rest of the line to deal with. I personally thought Barwin has been having a few good games, just wasn't getting on the stat board. And even with a double team, Watt had a tipped pass that ended up being a pick 6.

Just goes to show you that our 5 pass rushers > 5 o lineman. I like that math. :evil:

I saw plays where he was double teamed, and others where they threw to the opposite side of Watt. And if every Texans lineman is getting to Flacco except Watt, it's obvious. Watt's presence is hugely influential.

Mr. Texan
11-18-2012, 02:32 PM
:kitten:

wolf123
11-18-2012, 04:23 PM
Our OLB pass rush is not getting it done...

corytx8
11-18-2012, 04:33 PM
Our OLB pass rush is not getting it done...

Don't freak out, they were running mainly out of the power formation most of the game, the same thing Chicago did too.

dream_team
11-18-2012, 04:35 PM
I was just about to post a new thread on this. Our front 4 has been getting no pressure on the QB for a while now, because Watt is continuously getting doubled. This forced Wade to call a lot of blitzes, leaving too much single coverage in the secondary. Reed & Barwin have been huge disappointments this season.

amazing80
11-18-2012, 04:51 PM
Don't freak out, they were running mainly out of the power formation most of the game, the same thing Chicago did too.

They dropped back 35 total times to pass and allowed only 2 sacks. They are the 26th ranked offense in sacks given up with almost 30 on the season. They are terrible and we managed 2 sacks....the pressure is not there often enough. We only seem to get pressure when we load on and playing good passing teams, this won't work. We NEED to figure it out NOW. Like before Thursday

stingray
11-18-2012, 11:09 PM
I just dont see the same pass rush as last year. I havent looked up the srats...but just by the eyeball test, i see a weaker pass rush from last year. Reed and barwin are not getting to the qb.

Scooter
11-18-2012, 11:14 PM
i'm still baffled by the amount of dancing i see from the OLB's and DB's when rushing - head fakes and stutter steps. that and what seems like an unnecessary amount of stunts really seem to be slowing our pass rush. watt and smith have been solid, two guys going straight ahead, but there's too much indecision on the outside.

wolf123
11-18-2012, 11:56 PM
Reed has been very disappointing and Barwin hasn't had the impact of last year. Mercilous needs to be taking way more reps away from Reed.

SW H-TOWN
11-19-2012, 12:10 AM
Connor Barwin (2) and Brooks Reed (2.5). Mercilus has 3 sacks and also has more forced fumbles than both Barwin and Reed combined :wadepalm:

Wolf
11-19-2012, 02:57 PM
All day long, I have caught myself wondering how the Texans can get barwin and reed going. Wondering why they are not getting the sacks. Was it the presence of Ryans patroling the middle along with Cushings blitzing?

klockWork
11-19-2012, 03:38 PM
No sack against the worst pass-protect oline in Chi.
Jax hung 37 points on Texans D.
That is a disturbing trend.

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TheIronDuke
11-19-2012, 04:01 PM
No sack against the worst pass-protect oline in Chi.
Jax hung 37 points on Texans D.
That is a disturbing trend.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2

I gave the lack of pass rush a break against Chicago because of the weather and field conditions and the fact that Chicago had a hard time getting to Schaub for the most part.

After yesterday though I don't know what's going on. Seems like Wade's gotta send a safety in to get a sack opportunity.

thunderkyss
11-20-2012, 06:57 AM
I gave the lack of pass rush a break against Chicago because of the weather and field conditions and the fact that Chicago had a hard time getting to Schaub for the most part.


So did I. (Very astute analysis) But after watching what the 49ers did to them last night... & taking into consideration what other teams had done against the Bears, now, I'm wondering.

Yeah, the weather was probably a factor. But Campbell looked competent against us & totally out of place against the 49ers.

I'm not saying our pass rush is pathetic, but I think there is more of a concern than I originally thought.

Rey
11-20-2012, 07:23 AM
Barwin and reed just aren't great pass rushers. The end. They get their sacks when they are unblocked or when the qb starts to move out of the pocket and they just chase them down and get the sack.

They don't consistently beat one on one match ups. Merci, to my surprise, looks more explosive than both those guys. My guess is that merci will be the starting wolb next year and barwin either won't be back or he'll be battling reed for the solb position which they are both better suited for...

I said this way earlier in the season, but this defense looks a lot better with a true pass rushing threat on the outside. The defense would go from really good to f'n scary. Wouldn't have to blitz as much which would allow more people in coverage. When we did send blitzes they'd be more effective.

IDEXAN
11-20-2012, 07:47 AM
I said this way earlier in the season, but this defense looks a lot better with a true pass rushing threat on the outside. The defense would go from really good to f'n scary. Wouldn't have to blitz as much which would allow more people in coverage.
You mean like Aldon Smith ? He was incredible last night and might be the man to assume Demarcus Ware's crown as the best edge-rusher in the NFL ?
If given the choice, would you take Aldon Smith or JJ ?

ObsiWan
11-20-2012, 07:56 AM
You mean like Aldon Smith ? He was incredible last night and might be the man to assume Demarcus Ware's crown as the best edge-rusher in the NFL ?
If given the choice, would you take Aldon Smith or JJ ?

Oooh... good question.
If I can take these homer glasses off (gimme a sec, they seem to be stuck to my head).... I would probably take Watt. But given what I've seen of both, that's a no-lose choice. I'm thinking Wade could make either into a weapon.

If Barwin is elsewhere next season, I figure Wade gives Mercilus the starting job. Do we draft another rusher to match and let Reed be the third guy in the OLB rotation?

thunderkyss
11-20-2012, 08:29 AM
You mean like Aldon Smith ? He was incredible last night and might be the man to assume Demarcus Ware's crown as the best edge-rusher in the NFL ?
If given the choice, would you take Aldon Smith or JJ ?

You need both, an inside guy & an outside guy. Is Antonio Smith good enough to provide that inside pressure? Would Aldon Smith be as successful with only Antonio doing the job inside?

I don't know. But you've got to have a strong presence both inside & out. If Ratcliff has a bad year, Ware will have a down year. If Justin Smith isn't doing his job, Aldon Smith will not be able to do his job as affectively.

If Igor wasn't getting his push, Merriman wasn't as dynamic as he could be.

Of course, two outside guys can work as well.

guichows6
11-20-2012, 11:04 AM
Thank god barwin has been exposed this season. We were gonna PAY the guy a contract that I never thought he was worth. I was not impressed last year either. He got most of his sacks against the jags if I remember correctly. At least now we can pay gq or some or someone thats actually worth it. Yea sure, barwin does all the other lil things right, but pass rushing just isnt one of them. Reed sucks too, but id say hes going thru a sophomore slump and has in my opinion a lot more upside than barwin.

Im not hating on Barwin the person cause im sure hes a great guy, but barwin the pass rusher just isnt getting it done.

DocBar
11-20-2012, 11:15 AM
Definitely disappointed in the OLB's passrush this season. I'm not sure what's up with Barwin, but he's reminding me of MW in that he always seems to be just a tad too late. He is also doing pretty well against the run, again like MW. The difference is in the $$ spent. I'm for resigning Barwin, but at a much more cap-friendly hit than might've otherwise been.

I've been pleased with the Ninja this season. I think he does a damn good job when he isn't getting silly penalties.

Merci seems to be bringing the high motor we thought he would have but has made his share of rookie mistakes, like getting caught up inside and not setting the edge on a few plays.

Titans Sux 72
11-20-2012, 11:18 AM
Merci has been filling in great. He makes the most out of his minutes, but only during pass plays.

Watch him when the offense runs. He's sooooo aggressive ( why he's good on a pass rush) that he loses contain on a run. I think that is one reason the coaches are hesitant to give him more time. He will figure it out and be a good one.
Now somebody has to put a boot up CB and BR azzzz and get them going. Running out of games.

Say Watt
11-20-2012, 11:21 AM
Is it true that Barwin put on a bit of weight in the offseason? I heard he tried to get stronger, but I'm afraid that was at the expense of losing some speed.

76Texan
11-20-2012, 11:34 AM
Is it true that Barwin put on a bit of weight in the offseason? I heard he tried to get stronger, but I'm afraid that was at the expense of losing some speed.

That, and I think part of it is also due to the scheme.

It seems to me that often times, Wade wants the OLBs to contain the edges so that the guys in the interior can make play (whether by penetrating or batting down a pass).

Actually, I like this scheme better because the path to the QB is shorter and if the offense tries a draw play, the penetration inside will be effective as well.

Another plus is we won't have to pay a truckload for edge rusher.

I think Wade is very smart in making the best out of his depth chart.

thunderkyss
11-20-2012, 11:47 AM
Another plus is we won't have to pay a truckload for edge rusher.

I think Wade is very smart in making the best out of his depth chart.

Sorry, but if you think Wade wouldn't like to have a premier pass rusher, or that he's limiting a pass rusher's opportunities to get after the QB... I'm going to have to accuse you of visiting Colorado a little too much.

Wade knows, especially with today's rules, to win, you've got to disrupt the QB, got to make him uncomfortable. If you can't do that, you get what we had last week....

76Texan
11-20-2012, 11:57 AM
Sorry, but if you think Wade wouldn't like to have a premier pass rusher, or that he's limiting a pass rusher's opportunities to get after the QB... I'm going to have to accuse you of visiting Colorado a little too much.

Wade knows, especially with today's rules, to win, you've got to disrupt the QB, got to make him uncomfortable. If you can't do that, you get what we had last week....

There are different ways to skin a cat. Why do you think Wade has been employing a smaller NT?

I don't mind visiting the mile-high state from time to time. I had a little "hippy" in me during college :)

wolf123
11-20-2012, 08:55 PM
There are different ways to skin a cat. Why do you think Wade has been employing a smaller NT?

I don't mind visiting the mile-high state from time to time. I had a little "hippy" in me during college :)

Because the bigger one is injured maybe...:wadepalm:

Wade wants the pressure coming from all 4. JJ watt is just playing out of his mind and barwin has been average and Reed has not played well. Mercilous should be getting more reps.

infantrycak
11-20-2012, 09:10 PM
Because the bigger one is injured maybe...:wadepalm:

Faceplam yourself. He was talking about the giant plug the middle style NT some teams employ and many around here keep advocating.

By the way Cody and Mitchell are essentially the same size.

They are both considerably smaller than: Casey Hampton at 3" shorter and 17 lbs heavier. Isaac Sopoaga at 2" shorter and 23 lbs heavier. Ma'ake Kemoeatu at 1" taller 57 lbs heavier.

wolf123
11-20-2012, 09:21 PM
Faceplam yourself. He was talking about the giant plug the middle style NT some teams employ and many around here keep advocating.

By the way Cody and Mitchell are essentially the same size.

They are both considerably smaller than: Casey Hampton at 3" shorter and 17 lbs heavier. Isaac Sopoaga at 2" shorter and 23 lbs heavier. Ma'ake Kemoeatu at 1" taller 57 lbs heavier.

And Wade has said he doesn't care if the NT is big or small he will fit the defense around them. 76 was trying to say that Wade wants the OLB to not be the focus of his pass rush but rather the inside players. But in reality the OLB are just not playing nearly as well as last year.

badboy
11-20-2012, 09:41 PM
And Wade has said he doesn't care if the NT is big or small he will fit the defense around them. 76 was trying to say that Wade wants the OLB to not be the focus of his pass rush but rather the inside players. But in reality the OLB are just not playing nearly as well as last year.Bolded is not exactly true. Wade has said he plays with what he has. Said he has been successful with both types. Agree with rest of your post and 76's.

I think it was a mistake to have Barwin get bigger as any increased strength has not allowed him to overcome opponents. IMO he goes into blocks and tries to run around not thru without success. He has shut down the outside some but that is not Wade's playbook for OLB. His successes have been QB sacks and hurries and this season we don't have that from any OLB. Wade is trying to be successful with Watt and to some extent Ninja. Again he is working with what he has. I do believe he was hoping Mercilus would come on strong last half of season. Will be interesting if Whitney gets more play against Lions.

I still see a big NT in draft as dire need. James has stepped up but still like my mock pick of Andrew Jackson ILB in third. OLB still gonna be drafted just what round. Keep an eye of Quanteras Smith 12.5 sacks and teammate of Jackson.

beerlover
11-20-2012, 09:59 PM
Geez. Texans are considered by many as the #1 NFL team & their own fans think this little of several players? I'm glad the record is not reversed just imagine the horror :overreact:

infantrycak
11-20-2012, 10:59 PM
And Wade has said he doesn't care if the NT is big or small he will fit the defense around them. 76 was trying to say that Wade wants the OLB to not be the focus of his pass rush but rather the inside players. But in reality the OLB are just not playing nearly as well as last year.

I was only addressing the size comment in your post which is why that was all I quoted.

I'm sure Wade can work with either style NT. I think if he has to pick between ability to penetrate v. ability to clog the middle he favors the former but like every coach he would love an over sized athletic NT who can do both.

wolf123
11-20-2012, 11:18 PM
I was only addressing the size comment in your post which is why that was all I quoted.

I'm sure Wade can work with either style NT. I think if he has to pick between ability to penetrate v. ability to clog the middle he favors the former but like every coach he would love an over sized athletic NT who can do both.

I know you were. I thought 76 was talking about Earl mitchell and Cody and I was wrong.:mariopalm:

thunderkyss
11-21-2012, 05:47 AM
I'm sure Wade can work with either style NT. I think if he has to pick between ability to penetrate v. ability to clog the middle he favors the former but like every coach he would love an over sized athletic NT who can do both.

I agree. With the new rules favoring wide receivers nowadays & the fact that they are getting more & more physically gifted, getting pressure on the QB is even more of a priority than it has in the past.

TheIronDuke
11-21-2012, 10:09 AM
Has anyone noticed if Braman's been used at all at LB this year? I don't recall seeing him but he seems like he'd give us good speed off the edge and of course a lot of intensity. Don't know if he's any different than Barwin, but I doubt he can be worse at getting to the QB than Barwin has been this season.

thunderkyss
11-21-2012, 10:31 AM
Has anyone noticed if Braman's been used at all at LB this year? I don't recall seeing him but he seems like he'd give us good speed off the edge and of course a lot of intensity. Don't know if he's any different than Barwin, but I doubt he can be worse at getting to the QB than Barwin has been this season.

I haven't seen much of him on anything other than special teams.

I agree, can't get much worse than Barwin/Reed. Let those guys get some rest, kick them in the pride. Let Merci & Braman get some extra snaps over the next few weeks & see if that helps Barwin & Reed step their games up.

DocBar
11-21-2012, 11:15 AM
I haven't seen much of him on anything other than special teams.

I agree, can't get much worse than Barwin/Reed. Let those guys get some rest, kick them in the pride. Let Merci & Braman get some extra snaps over the next few weeks & see if that helps Barwin & Reed step their games up.The problem with letting Braman and Merci get more snaps is that they seem to be undisciplined in run responsabilities. There's more to playing OLB in a 3-4 than just rushing the passer.

I'm all for working them into the game plan, but the defense is doing a fantastic job, overall. Just because the sack numbers aren't there for a couple of positions doesn't mean that they aren't being productive in other areas.

If I were the Lions, I'd be scared shatless. I'm sure they watched the Packer game and the Baltimore game. The Texans absolutely destroyed the Ravens after the Packers made the D look like chumps.

thunderkyss
11-21-2012, 11:26 AM
The problem with letting Braman and Merci get more snaps is that they seem to be undisciplined in run responsabilities. There's more to playing OLB in a 3-4 than just rushing the passer.

I'm all for working them into the game plan, but the defense is doing a fantastic job, overall. Just because the sack numbers aren't there for a couple of positions doesn't mean that they aren't being productive in other areas.

If I were the Lions, I'd be scared shatless. I'm sure they watched the Packer game and the Baltimore game. The Texans absolutely destroyed the Ravens after the Packers made the D look like chumps.

Great post. You are soooo right. Probably why I'm not a coach.

Thorn
11-21-2012, 11:43 AM
We're 9-1 and the defense is (statisticly) 4th best in the NFL.

Yes, I'm sure there is room to *****, there always is. But damn, when was the last time the Texans had the (tied) best record in the NFL going into week 12 and consistently rated number 1?

At this point I'm getting mentally ready to go on cruise control the rest of the season, and NOT spend the mental cycles worrying about my football team.

Hardcore Texan
11-21-2012, 11:45 AM
We're 9-1 and the defense is (statisticly) 4th best in the NFL.

Yes, I'm sure there is room to *****, there always is. But damn, when was the last time the Texans had the (tied) best record in the NFL going into week 12 and consistently rated number 1?

At this point I'm getting mentally ready to go on cruise control the rest of the season, and NOT spend the mental cycles worrying about my football team.

It's great, you should join me over here, I haven't been fretting this year just enjoying the ride.

thunderkyss
11-21-2012, 11:51 AM
It's great, you should join me over here, I haven't been fretting this year just enjoying the ride.

Hey now, I'm enjoying the ride. Just like to discuss football. "Yeah, the Texans are the Bees-knees" gets kind of old.

I don't think I'm going on cruise control until we beat the Patriots. I think that's our last real test, to beat them when there is something on the line, for them just as much as for us. That game may determine HFA for both teams.

Detroit & Tennessee stand between now & that game, hopefully we'll emerge from that game at 12-1, then I can go on cruise control... well, I'd hate to go into the play-offs on a 3 game losing streak.

dammit, screw cruise control.

Texan_Touchdown
11-21-2012, 11:51 AM
These last couple weeks the pressure has been no existent. Is we let Henne chop us up like that I can't imagine Brady and his short pass game will do to us. This D line better wake or were not getting past the AFCC. Simple as that Mercilus needs to learn some dang moves and I like what Crick is doing Barwin is ok but it seems like the opposing O Line has no splits at all and we can't by em' and thats just not going to cut it. Remember 2010 with the amount of time other QB's had.. same thing this year if the pressure doesn't get there

76Texan
11-21-2012, 12:04 PM
I was only addressing the size comment in your post which is why that was all I quoted.

I'm sure Wade can work with either style NT. I think if he has to pick between ability to penetrate v. ability to clog the middle he favors the former but like every coach he would love an over sized athletic NT who can do both.^^^ This!

Wolf, if you use google (I did but forgot to bookmark it so I don't have the link) you should find an article somewhere that talked about Jamal Williams' ability to bat down pass.

Also, when I did the thread on Wade's defense over the years, I also mentioned that Ted Washington was also good at that and he can penetrate too.

That was why I also like Hebron Fangupo; he has a good first step and is quick enough to penetrate. Too bad, his injury gets the better of him.

ChampionTexan
11-21-2012, 12:07 PM
It's great, you should join me over here, I haven't been fretting this year just enjoying the ride.

http://www.copperhillimages.com/images/64021719_CHPTbjAb_applause.gif

wolf123
11-21-2012, 03:05 PM
^^^ This!

Wolf, if you use google (I did but forgot to bookmark it so I don't have the link) you should find an article somewhere that talked about Jamal Williams' ability to bat down pass.

Also, when I did the thread on Wade's defense over the years, I also mentioned that Ted Washington was also good at that and he can penetrate too.

That was why I also like Hebron Fangupo; he has a good first step and is quick enough to penetrate. Too bad, his injury gets the better of him.

My only issue is trying to blame the lack of consistent outside pressure on the scheme. Saying they are suppose to just set the edge and let the inside guys clean up is wrong in my opinion.

CloakNNNdagger
11-21-2012, 03:35 PM
The Texans D and Watt should have a field day swatting passes away tomorrow. Stafford has begun commonly trying to thread passes sidearm in between the D linemen.

76Texan
11-22-2012, 12:13 AM
My only issue is trying to blame the lack of consistent outside pressure on the scheme. Saying they are suppose to just set the edge and let the inside guys clean up is wrong in my opinion.

I've been thinking about this long and hard, and it's really difficult to try to explain what I want to say.

Let's think of it this way, we're the DC and DL coach and the LB coach sitting together to come up with a way to generate pass rush.

We realize that's there are many ways to do things.
Somebody suggests that we have guys who can penetrate the interior gaps (Watt, Antonio, Mitchell) and we also have ILBs who have quick first step and short burst.
The shortest distance to the QB is a straight line; ie. to the inside.

If we can somehow set a guy free or going against a one-on-one match up, we have plenty of opportunity to cause have in the backfield.

On first and second down, when the run is still in play, this will also help disrupt the mesh point (if the QB hand the ball of to the RB).
By not having an OLB taking an edge rush all the time, we can also guard the outside run or reverse better.
In passing situation, it's also effective against the occasional draw play.

Another plus is that we can drop an OLB back into coverage instead of our ILB, giving the defense more variations in disguising the pass rush and coverage.

Sometimes, it can help against the screen pass if one of the OLB doesn't sell out to go all in. There's also benefit against the bootleg or roll-out.

Obviously, we can still rush both OLBs whenever we want to.
But with the personnel we had inside, it might be the more effective way to go about it.

I don't know how much sense that makes, just my thinking is all.

:d:
Go Texans.

beerlover
11-22-2012, 08:50 AM
I've been thinking about this long and hard, and it's really difficult to try to explain what I want to say.

Let's think of it this way, we're the DC and DL coach and the LB coach sitting together to come up with a way to generate pass rush.

We realize that's there are many ways to do things.
Somebody suggests that we have guys who can penetrate the interior gaps (Watt, Antonio, Mitchell) and we also have ILBs who have quick first step and short burst.
The shortest distance to the QB is a straight line; ie. to the inside.

If we can somehow set a guy free or going against a one-on-one match up, we have plenty of opportunity to cause have in the backfield.

On first and second down, when the run is still in play, this will also help disrupt the mesh point (if the QB hand the ball of to the RB).
By not having an OLB taking an edge rush all the time, we can also guard the outside run or reverse better.
In passing situation, it's also effective against the occasional draw play.

Another plus is that we can drop an OLB back into coverage instead of our ILB, giving the defense more variations in disguising the pass rush and coverage.

Sometimes, it can help against the screen pass if one of the OLB doesn't sell out to go all in. There's also benefit against the bootleg or roll-out.

Obviously, we can still rush both OLBs whenever we want to.
But with the personnel we had inside, it might be the more effective way to go about it.

I don't know how much sense that makes, just my thinking is all.

:d:
Go Texans.

This is the "Cushing Effect" as Texans adjust to life with Brian rest of this season into the playoffs. As a collective, we tend to under estimate the value he brought to the table, coaching staff made adjustments & players role/assignment influenced to fill gaps. :cool:

76Texan
11-22-2012, 08:54 AM
Also, Wolf, I went back and looked at the numbers of all Wade's teams.

There were only the number of sacks that we can go by, but boy even I was somewhat surprise.

The Cowboys are the only true anomaly where the OLBs collect more sacks than the interior guys.

The Chargers are next.
In 04, their interior guys combined for 13.5 sacks, the ILBs had 3.5, and the OLBs had 12.
In 05, the splits were 14.5, 5.5, and 16.5

The rest of the teams that Wade was with, those figures leaned quite a bit toward the interior guys, sometimes with vast discrepancy.

Most notably was the 98 Bills.
The split was a humongous 33.5 to 6.5
Bruce Smith led the way with 10 that year (not even his highest number.)
LOLB Sam Rogers played in 15 games and recorded 4.5 sacks.
ROLB Gabe Northern played in 16 games and recorded 2 sacks.

Rey
11-22-2012, 09:28 AM
Problem is our olb's do rush. They just don't do a whole lot when they do.

It's obvious when they are not rushing or playing the run. But when you see them rushing the passer they aren't getting there very often.

thunderkyss
11-22-2012, 09:35 AM
This is the "Cushing Effect" as Texans adjust to life with Brian rest of this season into the playoffs. As a collective, we tend to under estimate the value he brought to the table, coaching staff made adjustments & players role/assignment influenced to fill gaps. :cool:

Now that you mention it, I wonder why we haven't seen as many threads & posts about how we don't need Brian Cushing similar to the threads & posts we had last year after losing another impact player on defense.

I mean we're playing better offensive teams than we did last year & we're still top 5.

Problem is our olb's do rush. They just don't do a whole lot when they do.

It's obvious when they are not rushing or playing the run. But when you see them rushing the passer they aren't getting there very often.

Most of the time, not even close

beerlover
11-22-2012, 09:40 AM
Lions have one of the lesser quality OL's so expect Barwin in particular (Backus out?)to breakthrough & appease you pesky, relentless fans who insist cannot "get there" syndrome for Texans DL. Similar to Manning coming home to Chicago, Barwin is coming home to Detroit. Now if he does not perform up to my expectations under these circumstances guess I will have admit DL minus Watt just not getting it done. There is a lot riding on this game.

Three sacks Barwin & Brooks adds another :fostering:

76Texan
11-22-2012, 09:45 AM
Problem is our olb's do rush. They just don't do a whole lot when they do.

It's obvious when they are not rushing or playing the run. But when you see them rushing the passer they aren't getting there very often.

It certainly looks that way; however, when I look at the numbers from the time Wade was with the Saints, the Broncos, the Falcons, and especially the Bills, the number of sacks generated from the interior positions far exceeded those of the OLBs. This strongly suggests that schemes were involved. We don't know how those various schemes were implemented so it's hard to pinpoint the reason.

JJ Watt certainly looks like a hybrid Reggie White/Bruce Smith/Clyde Simmons type of guy though.

76Texan
11-22-2012, 09:50 AM
The Texans sack distribution closely parallels that of the Bills of Wade's past with the OLBs contributed little in all those years; that I think we really need to keep in mind.

thunderkyss
11-22-2012, 09:55 AM
It certainly looks that way; however, when I look at the numbers from the time Wade was with the Saints, the Broncos, the Falcons, and especially the Bills, the number of sacks generated from the interior positions far exceeded those of the OLBs. This strongly suggest that schemes were involved. We don't know how those various schemes were implemented so it's hard to pinpoint the reason.

JJ Watt certainly looks like a hybrid Reggie White/Bruce Smith/Clyde Simmons type of guy though.

Well that just brings up other questions. We know Jj is doing his part, where are the other guys? Antonio with 4..... that's about right for an interior. But who is Terrell McClain & where is Jared Crick?

76Texan
11-22-2012, 09:59 AM
Here's the sack distribution list of the Bills during Wade's tenure.
(Note that the interior included big Ted Washington who "shouldn't" figure much.)

95:
25.5 - 19.5

96:
26.5 - 10

97:
24 - 12.5

98:
33.5 - 6.5

99:
28.5 - 6.5

2000:
21.5 - 13.5

It was not just a one-year anomaly.

Rey
11-22-2012, 10:01 AM
It certainly looks that way; however, when I look at the numbers from the time Wade was with the Saints, the Broncos, the Falcons, and especially the Bills, the number of sacks generated from the interior positions far exceeded those of the OLBs. This strongly suggest that schemes were involved. We don't know how those various schemes were implemented so it's hard to pinpoint the reason.

JJ Watt certainly looks like a hybrid Reggie White/Bruce Smith/Clyde Simmons type of guy though.

Or maybe the olb's weren't that good at rushing the passer...

I will say this though, the interior guys Probably have more pass rushing opportunities since the Olb's drop in coverage fairly often.

That said, they aren't passing the eyeball test for me. I can see when they aren't rushing and instead playing a read and react technique...but when they do get opportunities to pin their ears back and go they aren't making OT's work very hard.

Especially Brooks Reed.

My thing is, when we know a qb is dropping back to pass, we would benefit greatly by having a guy on the outside that could relieve pressure on the guys on the inside. The OL is bit having to extend itself.

And while there is a shorter path to the qb for interior lineman, usually those guys are a lot easier to block than good edge rushers. 1) just from a physical ability standpoint and 2) interior guys are easier to neutralize with double teams.

I said this a while ago, but I'd actually like to see watt lined up outside more often. He's our best pass rusher by far and he'd make the o line have to actually work out there.

Right now it's too easy to contain our pass rush. Double watt inside. Help a little on smith, and dare our olb's to do anything about it.

That's no bueno for any scheme.

76Texan
11-22-2012, 10:03 AM
And here are the numbers from the Falcons:

02:
31.5 - 9.5

03:
27 - 6.5

Those are also huge discrepancies.

They definitely show that Wade can get pressure from the inside very well; it has got to be the scheme.

Rey
11-22-2012, 10:13 AM
Here's the sack distribution list of the Bills during Wade's tenure.
(Note that the interior included big Ted Washington who "shouldn't" figure much.)

95:
25.5 - 19.5

96:
26.5 - 10

97:
24 - 12.5

98:
33.5 - 6.5

99:
28.5 - 6.5

2000:
21.5 - 13.5

It was not just a one-year anomaly.

Do you have a link to those stats? Or at least some context Or how those numbers are calculated?

I find it hard to believe that wades playing a 34 and his NT and DE's are getting 33 sacks and his OLB's are only getting 6. Even If you have Bruce smith and watt both in your interior and they are getting 10 a piece, that means 10 more sacks have to come from the NT or back up DE's/dt's.

Even our olb's are doing more than that.

Are they counting blitzes from the interior? Or are you adding these numbers yourself?

Rey
11-22-2012, 10:21 AM
And here are the numbers from the Falcons:

02:
31.5 - 9.5

03:
27 - 6.5

Those are also huge discrepancies.

They definitely show that Wade can get pressure from the inside very well; it has got to be the scheme.

Can you link where you are getting your numbers from?

I don't remember all these great interior d lines posting these high sack totals.

We have watt having one if the greatest seasons ever for an interior d lineman and smith who is no slouch and we still may just barely scratch 20 sacks from those interior guys.

If wade was getting 30 sacks a year from his interior then those guys were just bad asses and that had nothing to do with scheme.

76Texan
11-22-2012, 10:24 AM
Do you have a link to those stats? Or at least some context Or how those numbers are calculated?

I find it hard to believe that wades playing a 34 and his NT and DE's are getting 33 sacks and his OLB's are only getting 6. Even If you have Bruce smith and watt both in your interior and they are getting 10 a piece, that means 10 more sacks have to come from the NT or back up DE's/dt's.

Even our olb's are doing more than that.

Are they counting blitzes from the interior? Or are you adding these numbers yourself?

That's why I said even I was surprised.

I just go to pro-football reference.com and counted them myself.

Bruce Smith regularly get between 10-14 sacks a year by himself.

The Bills had a good DE in Phil Hansen who contributed 10, 8, 6, 7.5, 6 in Wade's first 5 years (and 2 in Wade's last year.)
They complimented him with Marcellus Wiley (who had 3.5, 5, 10.5 sacks in 98,99, and 2000 - toward the end of Hansen's career.)

Big Ted averaged more than 3 sacks.
They also had Pat Williams (who went to the Vikings toward the end of his career) to spell Ted Washington and he averaged nearly 3 sacks between 1998-2000 (3 years).

76Texan
11-22-2012, 10:40 AM
The Falcons had Patrick Kearney, who was on the All-Pro team once and made the Pro-Bowl twice.

They also had Ellis Johnson, a #15 overall pick and John Thiery, a #11 overall pick and a slew of complimentary players that Wade mixed in.

That interior line was more than solid.

thunderkyss
11-22-2012, 11:23 AM
My thing is, when we know a qb is dropping back to pass, we would benefit greatly by having a guy on the outside that could relieve pressure on the guys on the inside. The OL is bit having to extend itself.


They go hand in hand. The outside guys force the QB up in the pocket, the inside guys smake him around.

beerlover
11-22-2012, 11:41 AM
Watt sack right before Barwin can get sack.

CloakNNNdagger
11-22-2012, 11:48 AM
The CBs are again playing way off of the WRs:overreact:

beerlover
11-22-2012, 12:15 PM
Brooks pulled his groin, looked extremely painful. Mercilus time.

beerlover
11-22-2012, 12:29 PM
Mercilus drew hands to face. Then Barwin almost had a safety. Secondary only leaving underneath routes open keeping play in front. Antonio Smith has been active. Crick rotating with Mitchell.

Rey
11-22-2012, 12:41 PM
No pressure. Even with the blitz

stingray
11-22-2012, 12:46 PM
Zero pressure.

TexanSam
11-22-2012, 12:49 PM
A bonafide pass rusher needs to be a target this offseason. Barwin and Reed both have taken a step back this season. Big step back.

beerlover
11-22-2012, 12:53 PM
Barwin drops into coverage too often. Brings back memories of Mario dropping into coverage instead of pass rush role we expected. Executing Wade's scheme, Mercilus is designated more as primary outside pass rusher.

beerlover
11-22-2012, 01:13 PM
I'm seeing more four down linemen than stand-up OLB formations. Maybe if Texans had a true 3-4 nose the OLB's could stand up & move around more kind of like Matthews does.

beerlover
11-22-2012, 01:38 PM
Have to admit my disappointment. Even Quin has been a sieve. Phillips needs to make adjustment quickly or this gets out of hand.

beerlover
11-22-2012, 02:16 PM
Wade brought the blitz while it did not record a sack it looked fresh. Running attack hurting however in return. Chess game. Cannot overstate loss of Cushing, although Sharpton has come back strong. Wade flipping hand signals now Mitchell just missed Stafford who scrambled for a first down. Then Bell, who I had mocked for Texans couple years ago goes up the middle un-touched for lead changing TD.

Rey
11-22-2012, 02:19 PM
Why don't the play Braman some? Fresh legs, intensity, athleticism. Lions are passing a bunch and we can't get to him.

Mr. Texan
11-22-2012, 03:50 PM
nobody but watt can beat their man 1-on-1.

wade calls blitzes but it's only so much you can do and when he calls those blitzes it leaves guys in the secondary vulnerable.

we need SOMEBODY other than watt to step the fucc up. :mariopalm:

thunderkyss
11-22-2012, 03:53 PM
Watt sack right before Barwin can get sack.

Well why don't Barwin try to get one before Watt. Or get one on a play that Watt doesn't. There were plenty of opportunities while Mathew Stafford was building a freak'n house in the pocket.

Rey
11-22-2012, 04:19 PM
it has got to be the scheme.

So we spend a first round pick on a Olb who's specialty is supposed to be rushing the passer only to employ a scheme that calls for him not to rush the passer?

I'm not buying that.

I see them rushing the passer but just not getting results.

CretorFrigg
11-22-2012, 04:24 PM
In the postgame conference, JJ Watt said it himself. The D-line needs to step it up and put some pressure on the QB.

ESAD2-14
11-22-2012, 06:53 PM
In the postgame conference, JJ Watt said it himself. The D-line needs to step it up and put some pressure on the QB.

I'm worried about the lack of qb pressure from our OLB's, they are not getting it done. Watt can only do so much, and with him getting double teamed so much on of those guys needs to find a way through. If it continues that could possibly cost us during the playoffs.

thunderkyss
11-22-2012, 07:32 PM
I'm worried about the lack of qb pressure from our OLB's, they are not getting it done. Watt can only do so much, and with him getting double teamed so much on of those guys needs to find a way through. If it continues that could possibly cost us during the playoffs.

Especially when they are sitting back there for 5+ seconds

76Texan
11-22-2012, 09:06 PM
So we spend a first round pick on a Olb who's specialty is supposed to be rushing the passer only to employ a scheme that calls for him not to rush the passer?

I'm not buying that.

I see them rushing the passer but just not getting results.

You don't need to buy anything.
; just go back and study all the draft picks and FA signings Wade had over the years.

On the front seven, he had an excellent record how he make use of the guys.
Overall, he kinda luck out/inherit some great safeties, or get a good FA signing.
Didn't do as well with the CBs.

I am 200% sure; I had spent a lot of time learning about Wade's history.

Check it out!

EllisUnit
11-22-2012, 09:16 PM
yeah barwin and reed have been getting zero to no pressure all season compared to last season when they were in the back field for what seemed like every play.

76Texan
11-22-2012, 09:25 PM
The one thing I will bet on, if Wade has a healthy JJo and Kjax as of today, he will be able to bring on everything he ever wants in his playbook. No freaking doubt.

I'm lucky enough to have a good collection of games to watch.
And that was why I was so positive when we signed JJo over Aso.

Pull it up in the archive and see how many times I said Aso was over-rated.
Damn sure I ticked a lot of people off, too.

infantrycak
11-22-2012, 09:38 PM
Pull it up in the archive and see how many times I said Aso was over-rated.

Aso was not over-rated. He is being played in the wrong system for his strengths. Our system suits him much better.

That isn't to say he is better than JJo for us, just I bet Nnamdi would be a lot better looking in our system and Wade would love to have him as well. We did after all make a run at him presumably with Wade's concurrence.

Rey
11-22-2012, 11:25 PM
The one thing I will bet on, if Wade has a healthy JJo and Kjax as of today, he will be able to bring on everything he ever wants in his playbook. No freaking doubt.

I'm lucky enough to have a good collection of games to watch.
And that was why I was so positive when we signed JJo over Aso.

Pull it up in the archive and see how many times I said Aso was over-rated.
Damn sure I ticked a lot of people off, too.

I think if Aso had signed here he would be a much better players. I think both our offense and defense get the best out of players because both kubiak and wade understand 1) the nuances of NFL playcalling and 2) how to put players in position to succeed

beerlover
11-24-2012, 01:43 PM
Well why don't Barwin try to get one before Watt. Or get one on a play that Watt doesn't. There were plenty of opportunities while Mathew Stafford was building a freak'n house in the pocket.

I believe that was Detroit 1st offensive snap. After which Lions OL played pretty darn well at least better than I expected. Most of my posts in this thread were live game reactions to plays on the field (instead of posting in gameday thread) so pretty reactionary. Overall Wade uses Barwin like a DE often times falling back into coverage, he is just not dedicated to rushing near enough IMO.

deucetx
11-29-2012, 07:44 AM
Figured I would put this here instead of starting a whole new thread. There was a nice write up by Pete Prisco breaking down some of the issues on the Texans defense

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/21186851/after-further-review-blame-poor-pass-rush-for-sinking-fortunes-of-texans-defense

The pass rush simply is not there on those edges. Barwin and Reed are not winning one on one and that has been the case for bit now this year. As one photo in that article shows, Watt is getting double teammed and everyone else is one on one. They need to win those.

Maybe fresh legs will help with Mercilus and Braman when he gets his opportunities. Hopefully that will be the case because these guys need to take advantage of the attention Watt is generating. Plus the secondary needs the help because McCain has been getting beat like a rag doll this year.

thunderkyss
11-29-2012, 07:54 AM
Figured I would put this here instead of starting a whole new thread. There was a nice write up by Pete Prisco breaking down some of the issues on the Texans defense

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/21186851/after-further-review-blame-poor-pass-rush-for-sinking-fortunes-of-texans-defense


Good read. However, he's just guessing like we are. For example, he blames Demps for this

http://sports.cbsimg.net/u/photos/football/nfl/img21187570.jpg

Which is possible. However, with 4 guys on the right side of the defense & the middle void of any Texans player, I would bet one of those LBs was supposed to drop to the middle. It looks like one LB has pretty good "man" coverage on a TE (maybe). My guess would be that he should have dropped (since that is where Quin came from) & that TE was should have been released to the other LB already on that side. Also being the LBs were just thrown into this game, I can easily understand blown responsibilities by this group.

I'm glad that he recognized the lack of pass rush as the biggest problem. But showing stills of one on one plays don't tell the whole story.

wolf123
11-29-2012, 11:47 AM
I've said it since the Preseason that the OLB were not looking good in their pass rush and it could be a concern. Its unfortunately been even worse then I thought...:mariopalm:

HOU-TEX
11-29-2012, 11:59 AM
After watching the Packers again the other night I thought to myself why we couldn't get to Rodgers (except Watt's 2 sacks) like every other team in the NFL has been. I'm not going to pretend I have the answer as to why, but our edge rushers need to start doing something, period.

dream_team
11-29-2012, 12:54 PM
After watching the Packers again the other night I thought to myself why we couldn't get to Rodgers (except Watt's 2 sacks) like every other team in the NFL has been. I'm not going to pretend I have the answer as to why, but our edge rushers need to start doing something, period.

It was even worse in the Bears game, supposedly the worse pass pro team in the league! I'm really hoping Merci is the answer.

HOU-TEX
11-29-2012, 01:14 PM
It was even worse in the Bears game, supposedly the worse pass pro team in the league! I'm really hoping Merci is the answer.

I kinda discount the Bears game due to horrible field conditions, but I hear ya.

Merci against the run scares me

Dutchrudder
11-29-2012, 01:18 PM
It's ok guys, the lack of pass rush from other players allows Watt more time to get to the QB and get sacks. This will help his MVP bid, but next year we will have to address this. Not much we can do at this point anyways, unless it's a matter of changing the scheme.

76Texan
11-29-2012, 01:42 PM
Well why don't Barwin try to get one before Watt. Or get one on a play that Watt doesn't. There were plenty of opportunities while Mathew Stafford was building a freak'n house in the pocket.

Well, the problem here is that Watt got to the QB in less than 1-1/2 second.
Let's say that Watt is a more normal DE who only push the pocket, or in this case, he beat his man to the outside to force the QB up the pocket.
Barwin would have met Stafford in less than 2 secs; which is plenty good for an outside rusher. Barwin had beat his man to the inside.

b0ng
11-29-2012, 01:47 PM
It's ok guys, the lack of pass rush from other players allows Watt more time to get to the QB and get sacks. This will help his MVP bid, but next year we will have to address this. Not much we can do at this point anyways, unless it's a matter of changing the scheme.

I don't know if you have to change the entire scheme but I'm hoping Phillips can add some sort of wrinkles into the defense in order to generate more pressure. Problem is, if guys aren't beating the 1-on-1 blocks then the pass rush is probably not going to look very improved.

As I heard on local radio not too long ago, Connor Barwin is dropping millions of dollars onto the field from his pockets with every game he plays. Sucks.

76Texan
11-29-2012, 01:54 PM
I think there are other factors involved here.
First of, the level of QB play had increased for us this year.

Last year, we only faced one QB that is difficult to put pressure on in all 16 games; that was Brees.

This year, we've already faces 3 in Manning, Rodgers, and Stafford.

Last year we also faced some bad QB like Gabbert (twice).
Even Gabbert this year is "much" better than last year.

We saw an old K Collins who was never mobile to start with;
Big Ben is known to keep the ball longer than he should;
Campbell is a wash with the combo of himself and Cutler this year, not even counting the condition of the field.

Even Sanchez is a mobile QB, more than the other QBs we faced last year that has not been mentioned.

76Texan
11-29-2012, 02:01 PM
Secondly, we need to realize that it always take a little longer for the outside pass rush to get to the QB.

With JJo not playing up to par or missing game/plays here and there and McCain a mere shell of himself, it's harder on the edge rushers.

On top of that, the coverage on the second level is not as good as last year with Mecco and Cushing.

Also, with Cushing as The Enforcer, the QB would get a hit here or there, or the pass protection needs to account for him more than with any of the current LB that we have.

Every little thing adds up.

thunderkyss
11-29-2012, 02:11 PM
Well, the problem here is that Watt got to the QB in less than 1-1/2 second.
Let's say that Watt is a more normal DE who only push the pocket, or in this case, he beat his man to the outside to force the QB up the pocket.
Barwin would have met Stafford in less than 2 secs; which is plenty good for an outside rusher. Barwin had beat his man to the inside.

There were plenty of times Watt did not get to the QB. Those are the "opportunities" I'm talking about.

thunderkyss
11-29-2012, 02:19 PM
I think there are other factors involved here.
First of, the level of QB play had increased for us this year.


If they were getting the ball out quickly, I could agree with you. But that's simply not the case, We're watching these guys sit in the pocket for a long, long time. Then we chase them out of the pocket (Rogers) & he still throws a strike.

Not much we can do about Rogers being accurate on the run. But we should have pass rushers who are athletic enough to get him once in a while or at least make it a difficult pass. The guys chasing him were so far away that I don't believe they affected the throw much if at all.

Scooter
11-29-2012, 02:23 PM
the problem seems fairly simple to me, we're not winning our 1v1 matchups. that's the primary focus of wade's defense, to create as many 1v1's as possible and allow your players to play fast and win those battles. that's not happening on the line or from our blitzing linebackers.

76Texan
11-29-2012, 02:25 PM
One figure that we can look at is the real defensive QB rating from Cold Hard Football Facts.

Through week 10, we were ranked 2nd, same as we ended up after the regular season.

We dropped to 4th after the Jags game and 5th after the Lions game.

However, the drop in week 11 was due to the back end; the pass rush was actually tremendous; I will have some numbers later on.

The slight drop in week 12 was also due to the back end; we didn't have a tremendous pass rush, but it was far from lacking.
If only it could have come sooner.
But with a good QB like Stafford, you have to punch him in the mouth before the dosage takes affect.
He still didn't make any mistake but we were able to make him feel the pressure from the 4th quarter on.

76Texan
11-29-2012, 02:28 PM
If they were getting the ball out quickly, I could agree with you. But that's simply not the case, We're watching these guys sit in the pocket for a long, long time. Then we chase them out of the pocket (Rogers) & he still throws a strike.

Not much we can do about Rogers being accurate on the run. But we should have pass rushers who are athletic enough to get him once in a while or at least make it a difficult pass. The guys chasing him were so far away that I don't believe they affected the throw much if at all.

Barwin alone barely missed 2 sacks; with another QB not among the top in escapability, it would have been a different story.

We have to compare them to a certain standard; and that was the one from last year.

76Texan
11-29-2012, 02:50 PM
Here are the "official" numbers from NFL.com (using Stats, Inc. - Elias Sports Bureau).

2 sacks, 10 QBHs, 4 passes batted down
16 out of 39 plays (35 passes, 2 sacks & 2 scrambles).
41%

I am not sure what the QBH number stands for (whether it was Hits, or Hurries, or both.)

But I can assure you that the number of times the pressure forced the QB into an incompletion is even higher (still count as a disruption.)

41% is an insane number by itself already.

Last year, we finished first in Profootball Focus ranking in QB disruption at some 33% of the time.
I forgot where the link is, but no other team was even close to that.

The 41% figure would have been higher if I count total disruption that caused an incompletion.

The problem in the Jags game was the back end (mainly the secondary, but also the LB - Dobbins took a bad angle and missed the tackle on the same play that KJ missed the tackle, for example.)

It definitely was not due to the lack of pressure.
Afterall, Henne was only 16 of 33,
He was also sacked once and had to scramble twice.
And of course, Gabbert was also sacked once.

michaelm
11-29-2012, 02:53 PM
I'm predicting a break-out sack game with Barwin moving to SOLB and Merci starting at WOLB.
Of course, I expect Merci to lose contain on Chris Johnson a time or two, as well as fall victim to several draw plays run directly at him.

thunderkyss
11-29-2012, 03:03 PM
Here are the "official" numbers from NFL.com (using Stats, Inc. - Elias Sports Bureau).

2 sacks, 10 QBHs, 4 passes batted down
16 out of 39 plays (35 passes, 2 sacks & 2 scrambles).
41%

I am not sure what the QBH number stands for (whether it was Hits, or Hurries, or both.)

But I can assure you that the number of times the pressure forced the QB into an incompletion is even higher (still count as a disruption.)

41% is an insane number by itself already.


If they are saying we hurried the QB after 5 seconds, they're probably right. But that doesn't mean we had a great pass rush that day. Henne was allowed to sit back & pick us apart. There were issues on the back end, I'm not saying there wasn't. But our pass rush had issues of its own.

76Texan
11-29-2012, 03:05 PM
If they were getting the ball out quickly, I could agree with you. But that's simply not the case, We're watching these guys sit in the pocket for a long, long time. Then we chase them out of the pocket (Rogers) & he still throws a strike.

Not much we can do about Rogers being accurate on the run. But we should have pass rushers who are athletic enough to get him once in a while or at least make it a difficult pass. The guys chasing him were so far away that I don't believe they affected the throw much if at all.

Another thing you may want to look at is the completion percentage of the opponent. Even Rodgers was under his norm.

Not counting Gabbert 2 for 2 day (but with a sack), the only QB that had a better completion percentage than his norm was Fitz, by one single completion.
However, if you take way his 3 short completions in garbage time, he was also under his norm.

You don't make the QB throw under his norm by allowing them time in the pocket.
It was simply perception.

76Texan
11-29-2012, 03:46 PM
If they are saying we hurried the QB after 5 seconds, they're probably right. But that doesn't mean we had a great pass rush that day. Henne was allowed to sit back & pick us apart. There were issues on the back end, I'm not saying there wasn't. But our pass rush had issues of its own.

I just rewatched these, again.

The 63-yd pass to Blackmon was thrown under 2 secs.
Actually it was a 21-yd catch and run (42 YAC) between Quin and Manning.

The 13 yd TD to Lewis (between Quin and Manning again) was around 1.5 sec

The 67-yd TD to Short was around 1 sec, maybe a hair more.
It was a 6yd catch and run (61 YAC).

The 26-yd pass to Lewis was just under 3 secs (with Barwin credited for a QB Hit)
We rushed 4, playing quarter (4-deep, 3 underneath zone).
Quin and JJo was doubling up on #84 (Shorts) from the get-go.
Poor coverage.

The 39-yd pass to Blackmon was right at 2 sec (another miss-assignment or wrong coverage) with KJ making the tackle.
Barwin swiped at Henne's arm from behind.
Again, JJo and Quin doubling on Shorts from the get-go.

The 1yd TD to Lewis was just right at 2 secs, with Sharpton missing his assignment.

A 12yd completion was around the 2.5 sec mark, but they had max protect (7 against 5).

The 81-yd TD to Blackmon was right after 2 secs (they had 7 to block 4).
We had 4 to cover Blackmon, but guys ran into each other.
Quin gave help in the short hole, then McCain ran with Blackmon,
McCain and Manning collided with each other, throwing Demps in a loop.

In OT, there's a completion to Blackmon for 15 on 4th and 10.
Pass was gone right after the 2 sec mark.
They had 7 to block 4.
We were playing prevent defense (3 deep - 4 under).
Watt with a QB Hit just as Henne released the ball.

That's it.
Those are their longest past plays, just one over 2.5 secs.

Any more question?

wolf123
11-29-2012, 04:35 PM
76 I know you like your stats and everything but when every eye who watches the Texans is saying that the pass rush is not good enough on the outside. Then no matter how much you torture the numbers the pass rush is not good enough.

76Texan
11-29-2012, 05:12 PM
76 I know you like your stats and everything but when every eye who watches the Texans is saying that the pass rush is not good enough on the outside. Then no matter how much you torture the numbers the pass rush is not good enough.

Yeah well, I have the record of defending bust after bust :)

I'm very used to going against "normal wisdom thinking".

Not to say we couldn't use more outside pass rush, but sacks is only one part of the equation.

I can tell you another thing. The broadcast view often lacks information both about pressure and coverage. And they always go hand in hand. If you can't see one facet (sometimes viewers don't have neither.)

When you don't have enough data, it's quite easy to come to the wrong conclusion.

Just like I just differ from the Fid.
I know he exaggerated about the 5 secs; nonetheless, his assumption is still incorrect even when cutting the time by half.

thunderkyss
11-29-2012, 05:29 PM
Any more question?

Nope, you solved it for me. There's nothing wrong with our pass rush. Everything is like it's supposed to be. Barwin is getting screwed out of a big FA contract, because the back end sucks.

thunderkyss
11-29-2012, 05:41 PM
Just like I just differ from the Fid.
I know he exaggerated about the 5 secs; nonetheless, his assumption is still incorrect even when cutting the time by half.

If you can get everyone to agree that the data you selected is conclusive to proving/disproving your argument then you can make an argument that your conclusion is correct. However, a handful of passes that were delivered in under 2.5 seconds does not prove Henne didn't enjoy a lot of time in the pocket or that our pass rush is/was sufficient. It just proves on those plays, the pass rush was not the problem.

I know what I saw. And the fact that Jj Watt has half of the teams sacks back up my position. Watt didn't sack Henne on one of those sub-five second passes. Neither did Brooks or Barwin or Merci. Watt did manage to get to him on one of the other drop-backs that took more than 2.5 seconds. No one else did.

Unless you contend that there was only one drop-back that took more than 2.5 seconds & Watt just happened to get there before anyone else, I think your whole premise is false, & the data you're providing is misleading.

76Texan
11-29-2012, 05:56 PM
If you can get everyone to agree that the data you selected is conclusive to proving/disproving your argument then you can make an argument that your conclusion is correct. However, a handful of passes that were delivered in under 2.5 seconds does not prove Henne didn't enjoy a lot of time in the pocket or that our pass rush is/was sufficient. It just proves on those plays, the pass rush was not the problem.

I know what I saw. And the fact that Jj Watt has half of the teams sacks back up my position. Watt didn't sack Henne on one of those sub-five second passes. Neither did Brooks or Barwin or Merci. Watt did manage to get to him on one of the other drop-backs that took more than 2.5 seconds. No one else did.

Unless you contend that there was only one drop-back that took more than 2.5 seconds & Watt just happened to get there before anyone else, I think your whole premise is false, & the data you're providing is misleading.
Those are their longest pass plays and scores.

Do you think the other inconsequential passes took longer? :)

infantrycak
11-29-2012, 06:04 PM
Comp. % 1st
Yards per attempt 6th
QB rating 7th
Sacks 5th - T

I haven't been as critical as the "everyone" that all see our pass rush sucks. I think the OLB's are setting the edges of the pocket well and getting some hurries and hits but aren't getting the sacks. Smith has been disruptive. But what, are gnomes causing opposing QB's to have a miserable 53.7 comp. % on the season?

Oh and yeah examining sack numbers alone is faulty in looking at just one or two games and including hurries and hits is important but over the course of the season you don't find many high sack teams who don't also have significant hurries and hits.

thunderkyss
11-29-2012, 06:58 PM
Those are their longest pass plays and scores.

Do you think the other inconsequential passes took longer? :)

I think if we'd have got more sacks, hurries, & hits on those inconsequential passes, he'd have been in a totally different frame of mind & maybe he would have rushed it a little, not been as accurate & maybe the big plays wouldn't have happened.

Comp. % 1st
Yards per attempt 6th
QB rating 7th
Sacks 5th - T

I haven't been as critical as the "everyone" that all see our pass rush sucks. I think the OLB's are setting the edges of the pocket well and getting some hurries and hits but aren't getting the sacks. Smith has been disruptive. But what, are gnomes causing opposing QB's to have a miserable 53.7 comp. % on the season?

Oh and yeah examining sack numbers alone is faulty in looking at just one or two games and including hurries and hits is important but over the course of the season you don't find many high sack teams who don't also have significant hurries and hits.

I think the problem only appeared in the last 3 games. Before that, even though we weren't getting the sacks, I think we were getting the pressure. The hits, hurries, & what not. I don't know that it showed up in the actual stats, but there was no denying we were bothering QBs.

I heard a stat, either during the Jags game or the Lions game, that we lead the league by a wide margin in getting the other team off the field on third downs. That number, whatever it was, changed over the last two weeks.

We also were at the top of the list in yards allowed. Another stat that took a tumble over that 2 week (actually 2 games in 5 day) period.

If not for the Jags game I would have "wrote it off" as a result of a better QB.

But it's been three games... Bears, Jags, & Lions that our pass rush has been absent. Bears, we wrote it off due to field conditions. Jags, they got caught napping. Lions, a good QB. Are we being honest with ourselves?

Rey
11-29-2012, 07:08 PM
If we don't get a pass rush Brady and/or manning will eat us alive in the play offs.

b0ng
11-29-2012, 07:21 PM
Pete Prisco on Texans pass rush (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/21186851/after-further-review-blame-poor-pass-rush-for-sinking-fortunes-of-texans-defense)

But after studying the past two games, and closely watching most of their other games on tape, the biggest problem with the Texans defense is a lack of pressure from their outside rushers. The Texans are 17th in pass defense. Two weeks ago, they were third. The past two weeks, they have allowed 68 points and 795 passing yards.

Wade Phillips' scheme is designed to have the 3-4 outside linebackers getting after the quarterback, and the Texans are severely lacking in that department. As a team, Houston has 30 sacks. But 14 Ĺ of those have come from defensive end J.J. Watt, who just might be the NFL Defensive Player of the Year.

wolf123
11-29-2012, 07:30 PM
Yeah well, I have the record of defending bust after bust :)

I'm very used to going against "normal wisdom thinking".

Not to say we couldn't use more outside pass rush, but sacks is only one part of the equation.

I can tell you another thing. The broadcast view often lacks information both about pressure and coverage. And they always go hand in hand. If you can't see one facet (sometimes viewers don't have neither.)

When you don't have enough data, it's quite easy to come to the wrong conclusion.

Just like I just differ from the Fid.
I know he exaggerated about the 5 secs; nonetheless, his assumption is still incorrect even when cutting the time by half.

I never said anyone was a bust. But Kubiak and Phillips have talked about not getting enough pressure from the OLB spots. I guess they don't have the wisdom and stats 76 does.:)

76Texan
11-29-2012, 10:25 PM
I never said anyone was a bust. But Kubiak and Phillips have talked about not getting enough pressure from the OLB spots. I guess they don't have the wisdom and stats 76 does.:)

And I've already admit that much in my posts, that we do lack pressure from the edges.

My "excuses" for them are: better quarterback play than the ones the faced last year, the monster named Watt who occasionally steal one from his mates, poor coverage on occasions, and maybe something else I don't remember at the moment. :)

76Texan
11-29-2012, 10:31 PM
I think if we'd have got more sacks, hurries, & hits on those inconsequential passes, he'd have been in a totally different frame of mind & maybe he would have rushed it a little, not been as accurate & maybe the big plays wouldn't have happened.


But we did.

If we didn't miss tackles and/or execute our coverage, many of those big plays wouldn't have happened.

The Jags game was quite out of character for our secondary and LB.

EllisUnit
11-29-2012, 10:35 PM
To me it seems all QBs are getting the ball out quicker, and less time to get pressure. Thats what i'm seeing

76Texan
11-29-2012, 11:04 PM
I think the problem only appeared in the last 3 games. Before that, even though we weren't getting the sacks, I think we were getting the pressure. The hits, hurries, & what not. I don't know that it showed up in the actual stats, but there was no denying we were bothering QBs.

But it's been three games... Bears, Jags, & Lions that our pass rush has been absent. Bears, we wrote it off due to field conditions. Jags, they got caught napping. Lions, a good QB. Are we being honest with ourselves?

Agree with these 3 games.
However, look at it this way.

The Bears were rated number one in QB pressure (we were second) when the two teams met.
We ended up with 4 QBHs (I think these are Hurries - to be explained later)
They ended up with 1 sack , and 3 QBHs.
Pretty much in line with the ranking; both teams were bothered by the condition on the field.
(Watt had one QBH, easily his worst game of the season.
...

Against the Jags, like I mentioned, we had 2 sacks, 10 QBHs, 4 passes batted down.
Watt had (1,3,1); rest of team (1,7,3).
16 out of 39 plays (35 passes, 2 sacks & 2 scrambles).
41%

The Jags had 2, 6, 0
8 out of 57 plays (55 passes, 2 sacks)
14%

We were clearly the dominant defense.
....

I don't remember how high in the ranking the Lions offense was before the game, but surely they were ranked high in the passing department.

3 sacks, 7 QBHs, 3 PDs
Watt 3, 5, 2
13 out of 66 plays (61 passes, 3 sacks, 2 scrambles)
19.7%

The Lions had 2,6,0
8 out 52 plays (48 passes, 2 scrambles, 2 sacks.)
15.4%

We still had better pressure on the QB.
With a healthy JJo, I'm sure the numbers would change.
And don't forget that of the 31 completions by Stafford, 21 were to the TEs, RBs, and slot receiver.

CJ ended up with 8 catches for 140 yards (only 3 for 37 in the second half & OT.)
All other targets combined for 9 in the first half and 12 in the second half & OT.)

KJ allowed 2 for 19.
On the third one, we were in some kind of 4 deep zone, with KJ dropping straight back while CJ ran a slant.

Watt's second sack was due to Barwin (first) and Manning (second) on a blitz, forcing Stafford up the middle.

Watt's third sack was due to Barwin (first) beating his man to force Stafford up the pocket again. Stafford then had to avoid Smith (who alsmost had the sack) before he ran into Watt.

If Stafford had stepped up quicker on the first sack, it would have been Barwin instead of Watt who get the sack.

76Texan
11-29-2012, 11:10 PM
To me it seems all QBs are getting the ball out quicker, and less time to get pressure. Thats what i'm seeing

Agree!

Rey
11-29-2012, 11:17 PM
To me it seems all QBs are getting the ball out quicker, and less time to get pressure. Thats what i'm seeing

That's happening at times, yes.

Thing is, we are 11 games in. There have been opportunities.

Seems like the only times our Olb's have been a factor in the pass rush is when they come in unblocked or when the qb starts to move out of the pocket.

Watt said they have to step up their pass rush. Kubiak said they need to step up their pass rush. I think Rick smith said something along those lines earlier this evening.

The pass rush has got to get better. Period. Qb's shouldn't have to hit the end of their drop and pat the ball a few times. That's why you need multiple threats rushing and good db play. To make qb's feel uneasy. Jumpy.

Qb's that fear the rush don't sit in the pocket and comfortably pick you apart. They make bad decisions. They don't see the field as well. Too worried about getting hit.

We need someone else besides watt. We have to make qb's believe that if they don't get rid of the ball they are definitely going to have someone on their ass....and I mean he's coming. Everytime you drop back that mofo has a bead on you. Would be nice if we had two other guys like that besides watt, but I'll settle for just one for now.

Merci or Braman need to be that guy.

My money is in Braman, but it needs to be one of them. Don't really care who.

76Texan
11-29-2012, 11:20 PM
I heard a stat, either during the Jags game or the Lions game, that we lead the league by a wide margin in getting the other team off the field on third downs. That number, whatever it was, changed over the last two weeks.



Comp. % 1st
Yards per attempt 6th
QB rating 7th
Sacks 5th - T

I haven't been as critical as the "everyone" that all see our pass rush sucks. I think the OLB's are setting the edges of the pocket well and getting some hurries and hits but aren't getting the sacks. Smith has been disruptive. But what, are gnomes causing opposing QB's to have a miserable 53.7 comp. % on the season?

Oh and yeah examining sack numbers alone is faulty in looking at just one or two games and including hurries and hits is important but over the course of the season you don't find many high sack teams who don't also have significant hurries and hits.
Opponent third down conversion - still ranked number 1 at 28.57%
SF in second @ 32.19%; Bears in third @ 32.41%

If we add fourth down conversion percentage, the margin will increase as we were even better than both those teams by a larger margin.

Rey
11-29-2012, 11:21 PM
Just thought about something....

I think wade knows barwin isn't getting it done pass rush wise.

I think we'll see some pass rush situations where merci and Braman are rushing from the end positions with watt and smith in the middle.

thunderkyss
11-29-2012, 11:40 PM
Just thought about something....

I think wade knows barwin isn't getting it done pass rush wise.

I think we'll see some pass rush situations where merci and Braman are rushing from the end positions with watt and smith in the middle.

This is going to happen because of a natural rotation among the three. The question, is how often.

I think you're right. Wade doesn't have his head in the sand & we'll see the Braman/Merci combo more often than the Merci/Barwin or Barwin/Braman combo.

I don't know what the numbers say. They may not have changed much from yesterday. But my eyes tell me the Falcons pass rush whupped Drew Brees 6 ways from Sunday.

76Texan
11-29-2012, 11:45 PM
This is going to happen because of a natural rotation among the three. The question, is how often.

I think you're right. Wade doesn't have his head in the sand & we'll see the Braman/Merci combo more often than the Merci/Barwin or Barwin/Braman combo.

I don't know what the numbers say. They may not have changed much from yesterday. But my eyes tell me the Falcons pass rush whupped Drew Brees 6 ways from Sunday.

All numbers are included.

BTW, the way Wade said it; it's doubtful we see much of Braman on defense this week. Wade said that he's not in the rotation. I guess it means he may see some spot duties, maybe not.

76Texan
11-29-2012, 11:57 PM
Oops, sorry.
Numbers from the Falcons-Saints games are not included.

However, Football Outsiders had the Falcons as the worst 10-1 team they have ever tracked through the years - since 1991.
(before the Saints game, of course).

thunderkyss
11-30-2012, 01:04 AM
Oops, sorry.
Numbers from the Falcons-Saints games are not included.

However, Football Outsiders had the Falcons as the worst 10-1 team they have ever tracked through the years - since 1991.
(before the Saints game, of course).

Regardless what the numbers said, the Falcons got after Drew Brees.

Rey
11-30-2012, 07:11 AM
Regardless what the numbers said, the Falcons got after Drew Brees.

That's the thing...

The numbers will eventually fall into place if you are consistently beating your man.

Watts drawing a steady flow of double teams and he still gets his numbers.

And the other thing is qb's have looked far too comfortable against us. Even if there are plays where you are a second late, they need to feel your breath on their neck..no homo...

They need to see you whipping the o linmen in front of them. They need to feel like hurried...rushed.

They can sit back there and see watt getting doubled and feel like...'ok...the only real threat is accounted for'...now let me calmly find the open man..

You want them frantic in the pocket. You want them to rush their throws. You want them throwing from awkward positions because they're trying to hurry up and get rid of it.

I'm looking at the games...we haven't been making qb's feel like that.

They calmly sit back there and find guys.

76Texan
11-30-2012, 07:41 AM
I understand that we can use more outside pass rush.
But it's far from a disastrous situation as some thinks.

If somebody has a premium account at PFF, they may (or may not) have an update on total team QB disruption.

I am 90 something percent sure that we're the leader in this category just like last year.

Obviously, a lot of that is due to Watt.
But it's still a team game.
As I have described those two sacks.

Without Barwin and Antonio, they don't exist.

But now we need Mercilus to step up; he had yet to show as much did last year.

deucetx
11-30-2012, 09:09 AM
Unfortunately, we're more middle of the pack. With PFF and their grades they even have our pass rush ranked in the middle of the pack and it is generally carried heavily by J.J. Watt (35.9) with Antonio Smith (11.9) also grading strongly postive. No one else on the roster is even close to them and Reed (-8.3) and Barwin (-14.1) are some of the lowest among 3-4 LB's when it comes to the pass rush.

They have the Texans #11 in pass rush via their grading system. I prefer those to just stats.

Generally QB pressures is Hits+Hurries. With that in mind the Texans are #17 with 140 (38 QB Hits and 102 QB Hurries). Texans are #12 in QB Hits and #17 in Hurries.\

EDIT: Keep in mind these numbers include last night's game.

noxiousdog
11-30-2012, 11:05 AM
Unfortunately, we're more middle of the pack. With PFF and their grades they even have our pass rush ranked in the middle of the pack and it is generally carried heavily by J.J. Watt (35.9) with Antonio Smith (11.9) also grading strongly postive. No one else on the roster is even close to them and Reed (-8.3) and Barwin (-14.1) are some of the lowest among 3-4 LB's when it comes to the pass rush.

They have the Texans #11 in pass rush via their grading system. I prefer those to just stats.

Generally QB pressures is Hits+Hurries. With that in mind the Texans are #17 with 140 (38 QB Hits and 102 QB Hurries). Texans are #12 in QB Hits and #17 in Hurries.\

EDIT: Keep in mind these numbers include last night's game.

I'm a big stat fan, but aggregate stats lose a lot of value. They should be changed to rate stats (Hits and/or hurries per pass attempt) to have any predictive value.

76Texan
11-30-2012, 11:06 AM
I don't know about that.

AdvancedNFL stats had us with 71 Qb hits.
The Bears had 50 and the Niners had 49.

76Texan
11-30-2012, 11:08 AM
Btw, Deuce, do you know how they define a QB hurry?

76Texan
11-30-2012, 11:11 AM
And don't forget that Pass Batted Down is also a QB disruption; especially for us.

We have had a bunch of INTs off those deflected passes.

They are even bigger than a sack that forces a fumble when they are returned for a TD or go a long way.

76Texan
11-30-2012, 11:20 AM
I honestly don't see how with 30 sacks and some 20 passes batted down at the LOS that we can be ranked that low.

If that's the case then we would see QBs with a 50% completion percentage as the norm in the NFL.

76Texan
11-30-2012, 11:35 AM
Per NFL.com, an average NFL team allowed nearly 52 Hits.

We allowed 50, meaning our OL is just slightly above average in this category.
But we allowed fewer sacks than the norm.
Schaub's passes aren't batted down much.
And he's doing a good job getting the ball out early.

He certainly doesn't contribute to the opponents' disruption.

That makes it harder to understand those numbers from PFF.

76Texan
11-30-2012, 11:57 AM
Lance Z shows some numbers a few days ago on his blog.
He said he got them from a friend at PFF.

It shows Barwin with 10 Hits and Reed with 7.
He doesn't show the number for Watt.

AdvNFL stats shows Barwin with 13 and Reed with 6.
Watt had 30.

I'm pretty sure our eyes alone could see that Watt has had more QB Hits than Barwin and Reed combined.

I'm pretty sure our eyes have seen the Ninja and Mitchell and others putting a hit on the QB, including our other linemen, LBs, and guys in the secondary on blitzes.

The number from PFF on QB Hits simply can't hold true now, can it?

76Texan
11-30-2012, 12:10 PM
Here's something I stumble on checking out how they define QB Hurries.

Read this short piece and watch the video.

http://www.bigblueview.com/2012/10/16/3512180/justin-tuck-giants-49ers-grade-pro-football-focus-review

If they define that as a QB Hurry, I can guarantee you the Texans average a whole lot more than 10 QB Hurries per game.

76Texan
12-01-2012, 04:42 AM
Regardless what the numbers said, the Falcons got after Drew Brees.

No they didn't.
I finish watching the game on NFL Rewind.
For the most part, Brees had a LOT of time in the pocket.
The Saints had a gazillion of pass attempts deep.

Brees was sacked twice, both times off the right edge.

On the first one, the RT was really late and basically stood up way too high like a statue. Brees had plenty of room to step up, but he wasn't aware of the pass rush. He was getting ready to get set to throw the ball and Abraham came in just past the 2-sec mark. (And Abraham is a good veterean.)

On the second one, the RT was hindered by his own man, the RB.
The edge guy didn't get to Brees until after the 3-sec mark.

Other than that, Brees had 4 or more seconds in the pocket at least 70% of the time.

That never happened with Stafford.

stingray
12-02-2012, 04:35 PM
Pass rush totally showed up today. J.J., Antonio and Mercilus blew it up today. Hope it continues. :kingkong::turtle::texflag::hurrah:

thunderkyss
12-02-2012, 04:56 PM
Pass rush totally showed up today. J.J., Antonio and Mercilus blew it up today. Hope it continues. :kingkong::turtle::texflag::hurrah:

Mad props to Don Quiote.......

I was wondering if he heard that, after the first Ninja sack that was negated because of the penalty.

The second time he added the Ninja star throw I thought so no one would confuse him for don Quiote.

But yes, Antonio had a big game today & I think that's what we need to get the outside going.

Fili
12-02-2012, 05:00 PM
D-line did good today. Busted through the O-line numerous times. Hopefully we can push this through to the Patriots game next week.