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View Full Version : Would Kubiak change to power O in 2013?


badboy
09-27-2012, 11:39 PM
ZBS is what he does but have you noticed the Oline shifting from lighter, faster guys to athletic road graders?

LT Duane Brown 6'4" 320
LG Wade Smith 6'4" 307
C Chris Myers 6'4" 290 but Ben Jones 6'3" 303
RG Antonio Caldwell 6' 3" 311 and Brandon Brooks 6'5" 340
RT Derek Newton 6' 5" 318

Of course there is Harris at 300 but was basically all they could get when Butler 317 was injured. Usually, OGs are able to hide slow fat boys but ours are a bit undersized; that being the ZBS philosophy.

With an older Schaub going forward with his new contract, would a power offense be safer for Matt? There has been talk that NFL will be cracking down on crack back blocks which are Texans bread and butter in this ZBS. Our RBs rotation seems able to switch as all 3 have shown they can run through middle.

*Note that while I recognize how successful the ZBS has been, I am more in line with a power offensive scheme and think our TEs fit well in that scheme.

Comments?

TexansFanatic
09-27-2012, 11:45 PM
Good Lord, I can't believe how big these ZBS guys are. Amazing.

Wolf6151
09-28-2012, 01:27 AM
While I like the power blocking scheme more so than a pure ZBS, I don't like the big unathletic road grader type O-linemen that traditionally play in that system. I guess I want it all in an O-lineman. I like a guy who's large for the respective position, strong as an ox, athletic/agile on his feet, and smart. I think we've gotten away from the pure ZBS that we ran a few years ago with Kubiak's mentor Gibbs and begninning last year we began to blend the 2 blocking schemes. I agree our O-linemen are getting larger because a couple years ago we were getting killed. Gibbs just couldn't realize that the rest of the NFL had figured out the antiquated pure ZBS and that a larger O-lineman was necessary to deal with today's huge athletic D-linemen.


Between this thread and the Weaknesses thread your obviously working on a new mock with emphasis on the O-line. Can't wait to see it, I've been working on a new one as well.

TheMatrix31
09-28-2012, 01:41 AM
Let's just stick to what works, yeah?

Allstar
09-28-2012, 02:01 AM
Why would we do that? Why?

SteveSlaton20
09-28-2012, 02:19 AM
Let's just stick to what works, yeah?

this. kubiak's been coaching this offense for what, 17 years? not going to happen.

infantrycak
09-28-2012, 02:35 AM
LT Duane Brown 6'4" 320
LG Wade Smith 6'4" 307
C Chris Myers 6'4" 290 but Ben Jones 6'3" 303
RG Antonio Caldwell 6' 3" 311 and Brandon Brooks 6'5" 340
RT Derek Newton 6' 5" 318

Comments?

Well a question and a comment.

Where the heck is this purported weight change other than a rookie non-starter? Brown and Myers are obviously the same they were. Caldwell is 1 lb heavier than Briesiel. Newton is the same weight as Winston. So for the past three season we have had a net weight gain of 1 lb.

The comment is ain't going to happen unless Kubiak leaves. His entire offense is built around zone blocking.

SAMURAITEXAN
09-28-2012, 02:38 AM
Didn't Sherman tried more of power O while he was OC for the Texans?

Go Texans!!!

kiwitexansfan
09-28-2012, 05:27 AM
Didn't Sherman tried more of power O while he was OC for the Texans?

Go Texans!!!

I believe he may have added some power concepts.

Kubiak is a system coach, he is not going to change his system, he'll change personnel first.

SAMURAITEXAN
09-28-2012, 06:52 AM
I believe he may have added some power concepts.

Kubiak is a system coach, he is not going to change his system, he'll change personnel first.

Yep, I agree with you Kiwi. Especially, Dennison is our OC and all. I guess younger guys are getting bigger nowadays without losing any quickness.

Go Texans!!!

Playoffs
09-28-2012, 07:23 AM
Why would we do that? Why?
If it ain't broke...

thunderkyss
09-28-2012, 07:35 AM
The reason for the ZBS, is to fool the defense. First step from snap is the same, whether it is a pass or a run. Going to a power O will change that. I don't think we'll change for that reason.

However, I think the athletes are changing more than Kubiak's system. Bigger, faster, stronger. If you look at our hawgs, they're as athletic as much smaller guys have been in the past. Duane Brown is pretty freaky for the way he's able to move.

New Orleans, I noticed when we played them last preseason. Those guys are huge, but move very, very well.

Times are changing, not our scheme.

TexanSam
09-28-2012, 07:53 AM
The reason for the ZBS, is to fool the defense. First step from snap is the same, whether it is a pass or a run. Going to a power O will change that. I don't think we'll change for that reason.

However, I think the athletes are changing more than Kubiak's system. Bigger, faster, stronger. If you look at our hawgs, they're as athletic as much smaller guys have been in the past. Duane Brown is pretty freaky for the way he's able to move.

New Orleans, I noticed when we played them last preseason. Those guys are huge, but move very, very well.

Times are changing, not our scheme.

Unless teams figure out a way to stop out the ZBS and our rushing attack there is no need to change.

welsh texan
09-28-2012, 07:59 AM
Interesting stuff and I can see how that change might allow us to add more and more power o wrinkles in to the scheme to change it up, but it took forever to get this zbs working and I think they likely look to get the strongest (often biggest) guys who fit the athletic requirements first.

Interesting comments about Gibbs, I've always taken the view that he came in to put the building blocks in place on a long term project, we had a line made up of low experience guys, has-beens and other people's rubbish, and he set the foundations towards what we have now.

Can he really be viewed as simply a failure in Houston or did his time help develop us towards what we have now?

Insideop
09-28-2012, 11:28 AM
Interesting stuff and I can see how that change might allow us to add more and more power o wrinkles in to the scheme to change it up, but it took forever to get this zbs working and I think they likely look to get the strongest (often biggest) guys who fit the athletic requirements first.

Interesting comments about Gibbs, I've always taken the view that he came in to put the building blocks in place on a long term project, we had a line made up of low experience guys, has-beens and other people's rubbish, and he set the foundations towards what we have now.

Can he really be viewed as simply a failure in Houston or did his time help develop us towards what we have now?

I guess he did put in some of the building blocks (Brown and Myers) and I don't look at his time here as a failure. Just as a step moving us closer to what we are now. It may have taken longer than what we the fans wanted it to but I think now we are built for long term success. It takes time getting all the right pieces (both players and coaches) in place.

CloakNNNdagger
09-28-2012, 11:29 AM
Interesting stuff and I can see how that change might allow us to add more and more power o wrinkles in to the scheme to change it up, but it took forever to get this zbs working and I think they likely look to get the strongest (often biggest) guys who fit the athletic requirements first.

Interesting comments about Gibbs, I've always taken the view that he came in to put the building blocks in place on a long term project, we had a line made up of low experience guys, has-beens and other people's rubbish, and he set the foundations towards what we have now.

Can he really be viewed as simply a failure in Houston or did his time help develop us towards what we have now?

Gibbs was far from a failure for the Texans. His personell was of limited experience and/or talent and "fit." There was transition from and resistance and conflict with the power run offense principles. The ZBS is not an easy system to install and certainly takes very much more difficult-to-find type of players to run it in the first place........and an even greater challenge time-wise to choreograph it so that it can run effectively and consistently. The ZBS takes extreme blood, sweat and tears......and painful commitment. That is what Gibbs left as his legacy to the team you see today.

This ARTICLE (http://m.espn.go.com/general/grantland/story?storyId=7429732&wjb=) will be of historic interest to any Texans fan.

Texanmike02
09-28-2012, 11:30 AM
It could be that bigger guys are just becoming more agile. It isn't like you would decline a guy because he is big, as long as he can move, the bigger the better.

Mike

Scooter
09-28-2012, 11:55 AM
It could be that bigger guys are just becoming more agile. It isn't like you would decline a guy because he is big, as long as he can move, the bigger the better.

Mike

this, along with the fact that players just continue to get bigger and faster. it wasnt all that long ago that 280lbs was the standard for ZBS linemen. it's been 290-300lbs lately and looks to be pushing up to 310-320lbs. size is secondary to athleticism, it just so happens that the big guys move well enough to play in our system.

powda
09-28-2012, 11:55 AM
Much like the run and shoot offenses had trouble closing out games with a strong running game the zbs has its own inherent flaw. Our goal line running game. In the past thats always been an issue - finesse linemen have trouble plowing through the last 5yards or so. We've been fortunate to have foster as I think he is the difference in any kind of statistical review. And the texans have done well in adapting to athletic bigger linemen capable of operating in a zbs. At the end of the day though, I have way more confidence in our offense to convert a 3rd and 1 rush in the middle of the field then at the goal line. They just seem to nut up sometimes at the goal line and it doesnt help that kubiak has an entirely different play book on that part of the field.

badboy
09-28-2012, 12:45 PM
Well a question and a comment.

Where the heck is this purported weight change other than a rookie non-starter? Brown and Myers are obviously the same they were. Caldwell is 1 lb heavier than Briesiel. Newton is the same weight as Winston. So for the past three season we have had a net weight gain of 1 lb.

The comment is ain't going to happen unless Kubiak leaves. His entire offense is built around zone blocking.Myers, Smith, Brown have been on team and Myers struggled first two years. Numerous posts about this player as you know. Caldwell was brought on to replace center so to compare him would be against Myers. If we look at recent draft picks for Oline in last two years, it seems towards the heavier type player. Ben Jones is a center who may play guard only because Caldwell has not worked at either center or guard.

The ZBS takes advantage of lighter, quicker of foot players that we seem not to go for in last two drafts. You mention Winston who on numerous talk radio stints said he preferred the "knock the other guy back and to manhandle him". He stated that is what offensive linemen want to do. We seem to have adapted the ZBS since Kubiak's arrival.

I am not saying I think this will happen, just seems like draft is going that way.

badboy
09-28-2012, 01:15 PM
It could be that bigger guys are just becoming more agile. It isn't like you would decline a guy because he is big, as long as he can move, the bigger the better.

MikeAre Rashad Butler, Newton, Caldwell, Gardner and Brandon Brooks more agile than their predecessors? Newton maybe over WInston but I have not seen enough of him to say emphatically yes.

Big Lou
09-28-2012, 02:56 PM
Let's just stick to what works, yeah?

Don't try to fix something that aint broke.

If they change the rules adapt then.

I can't see Kubes changing what he has done for a decade or so.

thunderkyss
09-28-2012, 04:19 PM
Gibbs was far from a failure for the Texans. His personell was of limited experience and/or talent and "fit." There was transition from and resistance and conflict with the power run offense principles. The ZBS is not an easy system to install and certainly takes very much more difficult-to-find type of players to run it in the first place........and an even greater challenge time-wise to choreograph it so that it can run effectively and consistently. The ZBS takes extreme blood, sweat and tears......and painful commitment. That is what Gibbs left as his legacy to the team you see today.

This ARTICLE (http://m.espn.go.com/general/grantland/story?storyId=7429732&wjb=) will be of historic interest to any Texans fan.

I don't know if we'll see Gibbs true legacy until we see guys like Ben Jones, Caldwell, or Newton develop. He was pretty hands off, if I remember correctly, teaching our current OL coaches. So, how well they do their job will tell us how well Gibbs did his job.

thunderkyss
09-28-2012, 04:23 PM
In the past thats always been an issue - finesse linemen have trouble plowing through the last 5yards or so.

If that's true, & I'm not saying it is, then why would you "plow" through the last 5 yards? Stretch them... It may be a little more difficult being on the short field, but the field is just as wide as it is on any other part of the field.

DexmanC
09-28-2012, 04:29 PM
If that's true, & I'm not saying it is, then why would you "plow" through the last 5 yards? Stretch them... It may be a little more difficult being on the short field, but the field is just as wide as it is on any other part of the field.

It's "shorter" because the secondary has less ground to cover. It's like
adding extra linebackers. The throwing windows close much faster, and
so do the running lanes.

drs23
09-28-2012, 04:35 PM
Gibbs was far from a failure for the Texans. His personell was of limited experience and/or talent and "fit." There was transition from and resistance and conflict with the power run offense principles. The ZBS is not an easy system to install and certainly takes very much more difficult-to-find type of players to run it in the first place........and an even greater challenge time-wise to choreograph it so that it can run effectively and consistently. The ZBS takes extreme blood, sweat and tears......and painful commitment. That is what Gibbs left as his legacy to the team you see today.

This ARTICLE (http://m.espn.go.com/general/grantland/story?storyId=7429732&wjb=) will be of historic interest to any Texans fan.

Thanks for posting that Doc. I really enjoyed reading it.

I tried, but alas, MSR

powda
09-28-2012, 05:19 PM
If that's true, & I'm not saying it is, then why would you "plow" through the last 5 yards? Stretch them... It may be a little more difficult being on the short field, but the field is just as wide as it is on any other part of the field.

On a regular stretch of field the zbs is out flanking the defense (or attempting to) or shooting the gaps the movement creates. By the goaline dbs are so much closer to the line of scrimmage that they can stall the flank without sacrificing to much in the pass defense. (One defender gaurds more terain against the pass.) The focus typically shifts from a flank to up the gut against a decent defense. Condensing the field against a movment offense forces it to win more one on one matchups. Does that make sense?

Playoffs
09-28-2012, 06:26 PM
I tried, but alas, MSR
Got him for you.

ObsiWan
09-28-2012, 07:02 PM
The ZBS takes advantage of lighter, quicker of foot players that we seem not to go for in last two drafts. You mention Winston who on numerous talk radio stints said he preferred the "knock the other guy back and to manhandle him". He stated that is what offensive linemen want to do. We seem to have adapted the ZBS since Kubiak's arrival.

I am not saying I think this will happen, just seems like draft is going that way.

Two objections to that sentence.
1. The emphasis is on "quicker of foot" and, in the past, those guys tended to be "lighter" than the road-grader, hog types. If guys are bigger and have some athleticism, then they can be effective zone blockers. which brings me to #2...

2. I'm not the draftnik you are but what I've read on our picks is that they've all been "athletic" types. Duane Brown, a former TE, springs immediately to mind. Wait... maybe that's your point...

So why the thought that we'd throw all the progress we've made offensively and go to a power run scheme??

badboy
09-28-2012, 09:23 PM
Two objections to that sentence.
1. The emphasis is on "quicker of foot" and, in the past, those guys tended to be "lighter" than the road-grader, hog types. If guys are bigger and have some athleticism, then they can be effective zone blockers. which brings me to #2...

2. I'm not the draftnik you are but what I've read on our picks is that they've all been "athletic" types. Duane Brown, a former TE, springs immediately to mind. Wait... maybe that's your point...

So why the thought that we'd throw all the progress we've made offensively and go to a power run scheme??
With exception of Myers, I think the line would be better at straight ahead power blocking. As I posted earlier I think NFL in it's new safety first mode will look closely at cut blocks and perhaps add to the already illegal chop blocks. If that happens, Texans ZBS would lose some of it's effectiveness.
Here is an interesting article from a former NFL player BEWARE of profanity
http://deadspin.com/5873830/an-insiders-guide-to-chop-blocks

CloakNNNdagger
09-28-2012, 10:10 PM
With exception of Myers, I think the line would be better at straight ahead power blocking. As I posted earlier I think NFL in it's new safety first mode will look closely at cut blocks and perhaps add to the already illegal chop blocks. If that happens, Texans ZBS would lose some of it's effectiveness.
Here is an interesting article from a former NFL player BEWARE of profanity
http://deadspin.com/5873830/an-insiders-guide-to-chop-blocks

Elimination of the cut block will cause affect almost every team, not just the ZBS team since most teams use it during a game. You especially see it used to counter blitzing. But it's interesting to note, that there does not seem to be any teams that allow the use of that maneuver in their practices.:kitten:

badboy
09-28-2012, 10:15 PM
Elimination of the cut block will cause affect almost every team, not just the ZBS team since most teams use it during a game. You especially see it used to counter blitzing. But it's interesting to note, that there does not seem to be any teams that allow the use of that maneuver in their practices.:kitten:I think it is used when a player cannot hold off the opponent and resorts to going for the knees. I believe most players would not use it unless instructed to or unless they were in danger of losing their spot.

thunderkyss
09-29-2012, 10:41 AM
On a regular stretch of field the zbs is out flanking the defense (or attempting to) or shooting the gaps the movement creates. By the goaline dbs are so much closer to the line of scrimmage that they can stall the flank without sacrificing to much in the pass defense. (One defender gaurds more terain against the pass.) The focus typically shifts from a flank to up the gut against a decent defense. Condensing the field against a movment offense forces it to win more one on one matchups. Does that make sense?

Still, when you're stretching the field, you've got our big bodies on their little bodies which should still spell success for us. Trying to plow through their big bodies is not our forte....

By stretching the field, we cut their defensive front in half & attack their defense where we want.

TimeKiller
09-29-2012, 07:33 PM
Maybe Kubiak figured out he doesn't necessarily need lighter or faster guys. Zone blocking is more about moving as a whole. If they run a fake stretch, boot of Schaub for a big pass play to AJ down the field for a TD, who cares if the OL faked the defense 12 yards out of the way or 10? I think it all basically works as long as Myers, the lightest and quickest of foot, is able to get to the MIKE LBer.

ArlingtonTexan
09-29-2012, 07:50 PM
Maybe Kubiak figured out he doesn't necessarily need lighter or faster guys. Zone blocking is more about moving as a whole. If they run a fake stretch, boot of Schaub for a big pass play to AJ down the field for a TD, who cares if the OL faked the defense 12 yards out of the way or 10? I think it all basically works as long as Myers, the lightest and quickest of foot, is able to get to the MIKE LBer.

I am pretty sure Kubiak said something to this effect when asked about drafting the bigger OG this draft. As I remember, he said there was never a size limitation in the zone system, but that the player needs to have the individual movement skills that could translate to learning to work within the system as a whole.

anyway, outside of the Gibbs year, the Texans have run more a mixed system they are given credit. Zone blocking is the basis of what they do, but they do mix in so-called power runs also. Zone versus power is sort a misleading debate when a mixture is real the truth of what they do.