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View Full Version : Are teams figuring out our bootleg?


gtexan02
09-24-2012, 03:45 PM
Three years ago or so, when Matt would roll out into a bootleg, he would usually be all alone. At most, there would be one DE running hard but a few yards away

Now I feel like when I watch Schaub roll out there is usually someone right in his face. Its resulting in tougher throws and hard hits.

Have teams started to pick up on the bootlegs?

NitroGSXR
09-24-2012, 03:47 PM
Three years ago or so, when Matt would roll out into a bootleg, he would usually be all alone. At most, there would be one DE running hard but a few yards away

Now I feel like when I watch Schaub roll out there is usually someone right in his face. Its resulting in tougher throws and hard hits.

Have teams started to pick up on the bootlegs?

Figuring out is probably not the word that I would use. It's more of that they are taking our bootlegs seriously after 3 years.

tedr
09-24-2012, 03:50 PM
Three years ago or so, when Matt would roll out into a bootleg, he would usually be all alone. At most, there would be one DE running hard but a few yards away

Now I feel like when I watch Schaub roll out there is usually someone right in his face. Its resulting in tougher throws and hard hits.

Have teams started to pick up on the bootlegs?

I don't know that I would say figuring it out- they definitely know that it's a major part of our arsenal, and there is pressure. However, it's still very effective- I imagine if it stops working, we won't do it, but as long as we can run the ball effectively, it should still be successful a good portion of the time.

drunkcookie
09-24-2012, 03:50 PM
They're just more prepared for it is all, and actually working on defending it in practice...

Two long TDs off of it yesterday...if they've figured it out they're still not stopping it...

DerekLee1
09-24-2012, 03:51 PM
It's a matter of a defense's strong point. If they trust in their DBs they'll play coverage regardless of the boot because they know Schaub isn't going to tuck it and run. If they have a strong front 7, they'll have an LB shadow him. But if an LB is shadowing your QB, there's a wide open man every time.

Mr teX
09-24-2012, 03:55 PM
As long as we have 1 of the most dangerous rb combos in the backfield....no. I've been on i don't know how many other teams' messageboards where they say something angrily like "they're killing us with the bootleg like they don't know its coming...".

Knowing its coming & figuring it out is not the point...its respecting both aspects of it b/c we can kill you with the run or pass through it either way.

welsh texan
09-24-2012, 04:53 PM
As long as we have 1 of the most dangerous rb combos in the backfield....no. I've been on i don't know how many other teams' messageboards where they say something angrily like "they're killing us with the bootleg like they don't know its coming...".

Knowing its coming & figuring it out is not the point...its respecting both aspects of it b/c we can kill you with the run or pass through it either way.

Exactly, its pick your poison with this offense, you can't cover all the things we're good at, if you cheat and try to guess what we're going to do, we can absolutely kill you if you've guessed wrong.

For every time you see a bootleg rollout where a LB is only yards away from Schaub by the time he's ready to begin his reads, there are plays where a LB is stood all alone covering nobody because he's waiting on a bootleg that hasn't come, suddenly you're playing 11 vs. 10, so they can shut it down all they want, we still get a big advantage out of it.

It seems kinda strange to me that a guy like Schaub who lets be honest is your prototypical statuesque pocket passer by skill-set is one of the deadliest passers in the league when he gets outside the pocket and on the move, thats down to great coaching, fantastic extended route design and an Oline that is looking increasingly plug-and-play in scheme with great talent. (The Oline may have taken some time to get going in the early years of ZBS, but my lord it only has one single high pick on it and no matter who we trot out there they seem to find success).

Vinny
09-24-2012, 04:56 PM
teams have already "figured it out". They just don't guess right all the time.

Jackie Chiles
09-24-2012, 05:09 PM
One thing I would add is it looks like Matt is more decisive lately when he faces the quick pressure on those rollouts. I know in the past he used to act a bit surprised and occasionally panic leading to a big sack but the last few games he is relaxed and knows to just do a quick dump off to Casey or whoever is his outlet on the rollout side.

The Pencil Neck
09-24-2012, 05:10 PM
It all depends on the defense we're playing and how they're playing us and how good the backside contain defender is at reading the hand-off.

Against some teams, Matt has a nice big open field to jog in while he's looking downfield. Against some teams, he's got to take a different angle to let the play develop. Against other teams, he's got to get rid of the ball fast.

The playcalls adjust by how the defense is trying to stop us. Cause if your backside contain guy is worrying too much about Matt, he's not stopping Arian or he's not covering someone else.

Premier
09-24-2012, 05:26 PM
theres a difference between figuring it out and expecting it.. i think the texans had a counter for the jags when they werent falling for the bootleg. quick screens picking up 10 yards at a time. the bootleg doesnt just have to fool the front 7, if it can get the safeties to commit to the run for just a second than guys like andre and walter can get open deep like yesterday..

PapaL
09-24-2012, 05:30 PM
The thing is that our run and bootleg pass look exactly the same so yeah pick your poison. The DE/OLB have a fraction of a second to commit or contain...I like those odds. The fact that some teams are keeping the "end" there is a great thing one way or another. Can't key off if they look the same.

ObsiWan
09-24-2012, 08:18 PM
teams have already "figured it out". They just don't guess right all the time.

^^^^ This
....is part of it.

Another part is nearly all teams have it in their play book so it ain't like they don't see it in practice....

but few are as effective with it as we are.

And the way it's designed we have several options to chose from

Texan_Bill
09-24-2012, 08:24 PM
Three years ago or so, when Matt would roll out into a bootleg, he would usually be all alone. At most, there would be one DE running hard but a few yards away

Now I feel like when I watch Schaub roll out there is usually someone right in his face. Its resulting in tougher throws and hard hits.

Have teams started to pick up on the bootlegs?

:mcnugget:

If by "figuring it out" you mean they know were going to do it? Yes.

If by "figuring it out" with regards to "stopping it"? No!! 290 yards passing and 152 yards rushing against a pretty darn good defense. 442 yards by any measure is pretty damn good!!

76Texan
09-24-2012, 11:23 PM
Especially with John Elway as one of the head honchos in the Broncos organization.

Not to mention the DC Jack Del Rio, who was the Jaguars HC from 03 to 2011.

There's hardly anything Kubiak throw at them that the Broncos don't know.

SwoLy-D
09-26-2012, 11:41 AM
Stick the RUN down their throats. Hypnotize. Make them think "RUN" all the time. Freeze the linebackers thinking it's a RUN. SELL IT. Let the CB's buy it. BOOM, long BOMB. :)

Fili
09-26-2012, 10:03 PM
No one can figure out someones offense, just prepare for it. Defenses probably put QB spies in just to make sure Schaub doesn't roll out.

Rey
09-26-2012, 10:11 PM
It's not about figuring it out. It's about remaining disciplined when you play this style of offense. Backside guy has to stay home.

Only thing is, this offense is designed to make the defense wrong a lot of times no matter what.

That backside guy staying home to defend the bootleg makes it a lot easier for the running back to cut it back if he does actually get the ball.

Coaches pick up on that stuff. If the backside guys are crashing hard down the line chasing the rb, better believe there's going to be a bootleg coming.

If they are staying home to defending the boot, they'll tell the rb the offense that the cut back lanes are there.

76Texan
09-27-2012, 12:08 AM
It's not about figuring it out. It's about remaining disciplined when you play this style of offense. Backside guy has to stay home.

Only thing is, this offense is designed to make the defense wrong a lot of times no matter what.

That backside guy staying home to defend the bootleg makes it a lot easier for the running back to cut it back if he does actually get the ball.

Coaches pick up on that stuff. If the backside guys are crashing hard down the line chasing the rb, better believe there's going to be a bootleg coming.

If they are staying home to defending the boot, they'll tell the rb the offense that the cut back lanes are there.

What he said!

gtexan02
09-27-2012, 12:50 AM
Schaub is getting hit a lot from the bootleg now though. Is it worth it if it ends up resulting in him getting knocked out of a game?

The Pencil Neck
09-27-2012, 12:59 AM
Schaub is getting hit a lot from the bootleg now though. Is it worth it if it ends up resulting in him getting knocked out of a game?

We're not going to stop running the bootleg. That's an integral part of the offense.

Allstar
09-27-2012, 01:01 AM
They either guess right, guess wrong, or get caught in between and react slowly.

thunderkyss
09-27-2012, 10:02 AM
They either guess right, guess wrong, or get caught in between and react slowly.

I agree. It's all about being predictable with it. If they sack Schaub before he gets around, that means we were too predictable, they knew it was coming. Which doesn't happen.

Being a few feet away from him... probably means we're not as successful in the run or passing game... we broke it out too early... or something of that nature.

We run & pass out of the same formations, we'll run on 3 & 8, pass on 2 & 1.... heck I remember on one play we added an extra lineman in short yardage situation & still threw the ball... it's pretty hard to "figure out" our offense

steelbtexan
09-27-2012, 10:08 AM
I'm interested in seeing what a true running threat like RG3 can do in this offense. So far he looks really good behind a putrid OL. Shanny using RG3 on the triple option is probably going to get him killed though. Little Shanny is such a tough guy. LOL

gtexan02
09-27-2012, 10:25 AM
We're not going to stop running the bootleg. That's an integral part of the offense.

Yeah, it is key and I know we aren't going to stop using it.
The questions I have are:
1) Is there a way we can keep Schaub from taking such brutal hits coming off it? Its like teams have said to try and hit him hardest from a full sprint out of the bootleg

2) Is there a way we can disguise it better so backside pursuit isn't right in his face the minute he turns around?

A few years ago he would have 2-3 seconds to make a decision unharrassed. Most of the time now it seems like he's got <1 second to stop moving, plant, and get the ball out. During that time he sets himself up for some nasty hits

nero THE zero
09-27-2012, 10:34 AM
Yeah, it is key and I know we aren't going to stop using it.
The questions I have are:
1) Is there a way we can keep Schaub from taking such brutal hits coming off it? Its like teams have said to try and hit him hardest from a full sprint out of the bootleg

2) Is there a way we can disguise it better so backside pursuit isn't right in his face the minute he turns around?

A few years ago he would have 2-3 seconds to make a decision unharrassed. Most of the time now it seems like he's got <1 second to stop moving, plant, and get the ball out. During that time he sets himself up for some nasty hits
Can you think of any instance where he has really been laid out running boot leg? It seems to me that the boot is actually a defense against that because there is the outlet pass that the defender has to be concerned with.

Ryan
09-27-2012, 10:34 AM
He never used to be quick footed but before the injury it seems like he was able to get out of the bootleg and throw the ball away more effectively.

Mr teX
09-27-2012, 10:39 AM
They either guess right, guess wrong, or get caught in between and react slowly.

Exactly...this play was made possible b/c of the bootleg, & it's a wonderful thing to see that backside cutback lane to open up for our backs...it's literally like taking candy from a baby.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk7fCVw9g50

we're so balanced b/c we've got serious threats in the run game & the passing game

Titans Sux 72
09-27-2012, 10:40 AM
What he said!

X3....

A QB getting hit on an bootleg is gonna happen. Kind of like a QB getting hit running the option. Just something that comes with the play. He's not fast nor was he ever fast enough to out run an rush so yes he is getting hit hard.

Bulls on Parade
09-27-2012, 10:47 AM
I'm interested in seeing what a true running threat like RG3 can do in this offense. So far he looks really good behind a putrid OL. Shanny using RG3 on the triple option is probably going to get him killed though. Little Shanny is such a tough guy. LOL
You mean if you could switch places between Schaub and RGIII? It's the same offensive philosophy on both teams. That's an interesting question because I'm too simple-minded to play the "what if" game. I'm glad we have Schaub and I just hope he can stay healthy all 16 games and the three playoff games, counting the expected first-round bye and Super Bowl 47 in New Orleans.

Seņor Stan
09-27-2012, 10:54 AM
Exactly...this play was made possible b/c of the bootleg, & it's a wonderful thing to see that backside cutback lane to open up for our backs...it's literally like taking candy from a baby.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk7fCVw9g50

we're so balanced b/c we've got serious threats in the run game & the passing game

This exactly.

When teams start guessing it's only a matter of time before they get burned.

Mr teX
09-27-2012, 10:59 AM
I'm interested in seeing what a true running threat like RG3 can do in this offense. So far he looks really good behind a putrid OL. Shanny using RG3 on the triple option is probably going to get him killed though. Little Shanny is such a tough guy. LOL

I told people this in the thread where we were discussing him. His o-line is going to ruin him before he can really become elite........if Shanahan doesn't fix it fast that is.

1 of the most underrated things about Kubiak amongst fans here is his timely playcalling & the plays he calls that serve to protect Schaub. RG3 doesn't have that with the Shannys. He's an exceptional athlete, but they're calling too many designed running plays with him....he's not as big as VY & Cam & he can't take the kind of punishment he took against the bengals week in, week out.

They also don't really have a credible running threat behind him.

gtexan02
09-27-2012, 11:00 AM
Can you think of any instance where he has really been laid out running boot leg? It seems to me that the boot is actually a defense against that because there is the outlet pass that the defender has to be concerned with.

The Mays hit came off a play action boot leg looking play, right?

Mr teX
09-27-2012, 11:06 AM
The Mays hit came off a play action boot leg looking play, right?

Yes, it did...but i'm sure you know play-action & bootleg are 2 different things. Bootlegs, the Qb is completely out of the pocket, play-action the qb is still in the pocket. They're only the same in that both fake the handoff to the rb.

gtexan02
09-27-2012, 11:11 AM
Yes, it did...but i'm sure you know play-action & bootleg are 2 different things. Bootlegs, the Qb is completely out of the pocket, play-action the qb is still in the pocket. They're only the same in that both fake the handoff to the rb.

Yes I know they are different. All of our bootlegs come off play action. I seem to remember in the Mays play that he was well away from the normal pocket. I'll need to look at the replay

EDIT: Here it is:

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/Sports/My%20Gifs/BroncosMays1.gif

Looks like a boot to me. The OL moves well away from Schaub, toward the left side of the field, while he rolls out to the right

The Pencil Neck
09-27-2012, 11:17 AM
Yeah, it is key and I know we aren't going to stop using it.
The questions I have are:
1) Is there a way we can keep Schaub from taking such brutal hits coming off it? Its like teams have said to try and hit him hardest from a full sprint out of the bootleg

2) Is there a way we can disguise it better so backside pursuit isn't right in his face the minute he turns around?

A few years ago he would have 2-3 seconds to make a decision unharrassed. Most of the time now it seems like he's got <1 second to stop moving, plant, and get the ball out. During that time he sets himself up for some nasty hits

With Denver, you're seeing the players forcing the issue because the refs are missing calls. The players were testing these replacement refs to see how far they could go and how much more they could get away with. And with Del Rio, he was going to have his guys cream Schaub no matter what.

If you watch that play with the Mays hit, Mays wasn't the back side defender. Mays came from the middle of the field. Newton missed the block on him... which might have been why Harris got some playing time after that. And that was a relatively slow developing play. Matt was taking his time to give Andre a chance to get to the end-zone.

Matt had plenty of time on lots of other bootlegs against them.

The Pencil Neck
09-27-2012, 11:18 AM
The Mays hit came off a play action boot leg looking play, right?

Yep. That was a bootleg.

2slik4u
09-27-2012, 11:31 AM
For the record, I can probably predict about 85% of the time that we are doing a bootleg while watching the game. It doesnt seem to be that tough anymore. After running that play to perfection for the past 5 years, I would expect defenses are starting to catch on and LB's are starting to "stay home" a little more often now when they play us because of it.

No surprise here.

Mr teX
09-27-2012, 12:15 PM
Yes I know they are different. All of our bootlegs come off play action. I seem to remember in the Mays play that he was well away from the normal pocket. I'll need to look at the replay

EDIT: Here it is:

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/Sports/My%20Gifs/BroncosMays1.gif

Looks like a boot to me. The OL moves well away from Schaub, toward the left side of the field, while he rolls out to the right

Yeah, probably was a bootleg..looks like schaub just stopped short of booting all the way out b/c he had what he wanted downfield with Dre & had to get the ball out immediately....There was also pressure coming from the outside guy too...mays just got there 1st.

The only thing that gives me a little pause about it not being a bootleg is b/c schaub has a hitch at the top of his throw....you usually don't set up to throw like like that on a bootleg.

The Pencil Neck
09-27-2012, 01:30 PM
Yeah, probably was a bootleg..looks like schaub just stopped short of booting all the way out b/c he had what he wanted downfield with Dre & had to get the ball out immediately....There was also pressure coming from the outside guy too...mays just got there 1st.

The only thing that gives me a little pause about it not being a bootleg is b/c schaub has a hitch at the top of his throw....you usually don't set up to throw like like that on a bootleg.

That's not a good view.

Check this out instead. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXvCKwHLIew)

It's a bootleg.

ObsiWan
09-27-2012, 01:42 PM
That's not a good view.

Check this out instead. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXvCKwHLIew)

It's a bootleg.

man... that ear looks worse than I thought.

76Texan
09-27-2012, 01:55 PM
Yeah, it is key and I know we aren't going to stop using it.
The questions I have are:
1) Is there a way we can keep Schaub from taking such brutal hits coming off it? Its like teams have said to try and hit him hardest from a full sprint out of the bootleg

2) Is there a way we can disguise it better so backside pursuit isn't right in his face the minute he turns around?

A few years ago he would have 2-3 seconds to make a decision unharrassed. Most of the time now it seems like he's got <1 second to stop moving, plant, and get the ball out. During that time he sets himself up for some nasty hits
1. Yes. In fact, on this play (The Ear), either Caldwell or Newton needed to connect on the block on the LB (or at least slow him down some).
I think it was Caldwell's responsibility. Newton came off his block and tried to get to the LB, but couldn't, but I don't think it was his assignment.

2. Also a yes.
Once in a while, we would bring a receiver in motion from the other side of the field (Walter) to cut block the back side edge defender before going out on his own route. Or we can use a FB (Casey), also from the other side of the field (disguising a counter run).

However, there will still be the naked bootleg in which the back side defender is always optioned. It's a game of cat and mouse, really.

Mr teX
09-27-2012, 02:12 PM
That's not a good view.

Check this out instead. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXvCKwHLIew)

It's a bootleg.

Yeah, but see that view is a bit misleading b/c the whole line moves left as they were selling the run hard. But as schaub rolls & sets up to throw, you'll notice he didn't go outside of the original tackle box.....if i had a gun to my head, i'd say it was a bootleg though.

The Pencil Neck
09-27-2012, 02:16 PM
1. Yes. In fact, on this play (The Ear), either Caldwell or Newton needed to connect on the block on the LB (or at least slow him down some).
I think it was Caldwell's responsibility. Newton came off his block and tried to get to the LB, but couldn't, but I don't think it was his assignment.


Ah. Good point. I saw Newton lunging at Mays and figured it was his assignment. Could have been Caldwell's, I guess.

The Pencil Neck
09-27-2012, 02:22 PM
Yeah, but see that view is a bit misleading b/c the whole line moves left as they were selling the run hard. But as schaub rolls & sets up to throw, you'll notice he didn't go outside of the original tackle box.....if i had a gun to my head, i'd say it was a bootleg though.

The action of the run fake to one side and the QB running back to the other, even if he's taking more of an angle and may or may not get out of the tackle box, is still a bootleg to me.

Schaub will modify his direction on these things depending on how the defense is playing it -- sometimes it's almost a normal dropback and sometimes he takes it a lot closer to the sideline. I don't think he saw or expected Mays coming from the inside.

steelbtexan
09-27-2012, 02:24 PM
You mean if you could switch places between Schaub and RGIII? It's the same offensive philosophy on both teams. That's an interesting question because I'm too simple-minded to play the "what if" game. I'm glad we have Schaub and I just hope he can stay healthy all 16 games and the three playoff games, counting the expected first-round bye and Super Bowl 47 in New Orleans.

No, that's not what I meant at all. I'm a Schaub guy. Stop putting words in my mouth please.

It's just since Elway a really mobile QB that can throw the ball has never really run Shannys version of the WC. Like I said before I'm interested in seeing how RG3 does. (Reading comprehension problems?)

The Pencil Neck
09-27-2012, 02:27 PM
No, that's not what I meant at all. I'm a Schaub guy. Stop putting words in my mouth please.

It's just since Elway a really mobile QB that can throw the ball has never really run Shannys version of the WC. Like I said before I'm interested in seeing how RG3 does. (Reading comprehension problems?)

I'm in that same boat with you.

When I watched a couple of RGIII's games last year, I was drooling at the thought of him in our offense. A guy like him, smart and athletic, would be epic in this offense. Not that I don't love me some Schaub but... he's not exactly the most mobile guy or a speed-burner or anything.

Norg
09-27-2012, 02:37 PM
has long has your running the ball well ur bootlegs will usually go well

cause the bootleg plays look just like a running play

Mr teX
09-27-2012, 02:55 PM
The action of the run fake to one side and the QB running back to the other, even if he's taking more of an angle and may or may not get out of the tackle box, is still a bootleg to me.

Schaub will modify his direction on these things depending on how the defense is playing it -- sometimes it's almost a normal dropback and sometimes he takes it a lot closer to the sideline. I don't think he saw or expected Mays coming from the inside.

No i agree with you, As i said in a previous post. i think it was a bootleg, & Schaub intended to roll out a bit more, he just had to stop it a little shorter than he would've b/c he had what he wanted down field (obvious deep to short read) and b/c the end was (#96..#94?) was coming for him pretty hard....Mays just got there a split second before he did.

welsh texan
09-27-2012, 02:55 PM
I'm in that same boat with you.

When I watched a couple of RGIII's games last year, I was drooling at the thought of him in our offense. A guy like him, smart and athletic, would be epic in this offense. Not that I don't love me some Schaub but... he's not exactly the most mobile guy or a speed-burner or anything.

Same here, I'm perfectly happy with Schaub, but RG3 has the potential to develop into just a good and savvy passer as him with the wheels to burn teams too. A mouthwatering prospect in this scheme, and it'll certainly be interesting to see how it goes for the Redskins.

Steelb wasn't claiming he wanted us to go out and get RG3 or anything, simply that its going to be interesting to watch him in this scheme with the Redskins. And it will.

76Texan
09-27-2012, 02:56 PM
At any rate, there are only 10 teams that allowed fewer QB hits and sacks combined than the Texans.

We allowed 3 sacks and 11 hits (for a total of 14).

Of those 10 teams, 3 allowed 13, 2 allowed 12, 2 allowed 11, and 2 allowed 10.

Buffalo is leading with just 5 QB Hits and zero sack.

I don't know how many of those QB Hits were due to a blitz where the QB did not have enough man to block, but there were a few that Schaub decided to take to make a play.

So it's not like we're weak at protecting the QB as compared to the rest of the league.