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gtexan02
09-19-2012, 11:14 PM
Thought this was interesting. Shows how much perception plays into things. And the fact that the worst game was arguably the most watched.

The perception seems to be flags are flying indiscriminately. And yet:

• The average number of penalties per game is down from 15.2 to 14.7.

• On player-safety calls, such as roughing the passer; unnecessary roughness, including hitting defenseless players; and, face-mask or horse-collar violations, the calls are nearly even: 75 this year, 74 last.

• Instant replay reviews are way up, an increase of 16. But the percentage of reversals is way down: 23 this year out of 62 as opposed to 21 of 46 in 2011.

• Defensive pass interference and illegal contact penalties are up, but only from 48 to 51, surprising because of the hubbub raised on the airwaves about the lack of such calls.

Offensive players believe the replacements are concentrating on pass interference penalties against them, not against defensive backs. The numbers: six such calls this season to nine through two weeks last year.

...

Average time of game is about six minutes longer in 2012 than in 2011, and with only one overtime game in the opening two weeks -- same as last year -- extra periods can't be blamed. More likely, the time it takes to properly administrate penalties throughout the game is the cause.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8400480/flags-replacements-regular-refs-same

I think the most interesting thing is that only 20% of replays have been overturned. Which tells me they are getting it right a lot more than the regular refs did...

paycheck71
09-19-2012, 11:29 PM
The big difference to me has been with administering the game. They're often not sure what the correct procedural call is, misplace the ball often, enforce the wrong yardage on penalties, and generally take forever to make a decision. That's my beef with it. The biggest blown call, I guess, has been the phantom OPA call on Jacoby Jones that cost the Ravens the game last week, but those happen with the regulars as well. The replacements show a lack of confidence in their decisions, and that makes emotionally charged coaches and players respect them less.

infantrycak
09-19-2012, 11:29 PM
I haven't thought they have been doing a bad job at all other than being slow. The regulars are losing their leverage week by week.

gtexan02
09-19-2012, 11:32 PM
The big difference to me has been with administering the game. They're often not sure what the correct procedural call is, misplace the ball often, enforce the wrong yardage on penalties, and generally take forever to make a decision. That's my beef with it. The biggest blown call, I guess, has been the phantom OPA call on Jacoby Jones that cost the Ravens the game last week, but those happen with the regulars as well. The replacements show a lack of confidence in their decisions, and that makes emotionally charged coaches and players respect them less.

Yeah, they talk about this a little in the article. You're right on the money with this:

Game control and simple professionalism by the officials have become key issues this week after complaints from a number of players.

Average time of game is about six minutes longer in 2012 than in 2011, and with only one overtime game in the opening two weeks -- same as last year -- extra periods can't be blamed. More likely, the time it takes to properly administrate penalties throughout the game is the cause.

The league has a supervisor in the press box and an alternate official on the sideline to help in that area. But it's been a struggle.

All of that comes with time though. If they get the administration and control aspects down, the regular refs will be left with no leverage at all. Every single week the replacements become more and more accustomed to the job

2012Champs
09-19-2012, 11:36 PM
The big difference to me has been with administering the game. They're often not sure what the correct procedural call is, misplace the ball often, enforce the wrong yardage on penalties, and generally take forever to make a decision. That's my beef with it. The biggest blown call, I guess, has been the phantom OPA call on Jacoby Jones that cost the Ravens the game last week, but those happen with the regulars as well. The replacements show a lack of confidence in their decisions, and that makes emotionally charged coaches and players respect them less.


The more time they get on the field the more the game management issues fade and the closer they actually come to performing like the regulars.

As to player and coach respect, the nfl should warn the teams/coaches and then tell the refs to start popping them with penalties and the problem will solve itself

Pantherstang84
09-20-2012, 07:32 AM
The more time they get on the field the more the game management issues fade and the closer they actually come to performing like the regulars.

As to player and coach respect, the nfl should warn the teams/coaches and then tell the refs to start popping them with penalties and the problem will solve itself

Yep. I said the same thing in a different thread. Had I been officiating the Denver game this past Monday, John Fox would have been watching the game from the locker room. The player and coaches are clearly taking advantage of the situation.

The confidence and game control thing falls back on the NFL. They should have been training those guys up back during the summer.

Showtime100
09-20-2012, 08:03 AM
The thing I disliked about the regular refs is you could see a flag a mile away, almost before the foul you could feel coming...lol. Doesn't happen (yet) with the newbies.

Also I see no favorites being played, too bad for the NFL darlings *cough* manning *cough*

ChrisG
09-20-2012, 09:01 AM
I havent had a problem with penalty calls. Both the regulars and replacements miss or make terrible calls. The problem has been the pacing of the game, ball spotting and misinterpertation of the rules. I forget the exact stats but games are running longer than the average under the regulars. This is due to the ref conferences.

Vinny
09-20-2012, 09:57 AM
I think my issues aren't in 'volume' of flags...its the late flags when the home team's fans get loud or the late flag when a home WR asks for one....the bad ball spots and all the friggin' holding going on that isn't called. Also, the players are starting to cheat more or at least trying to see how much they can get away with. I've seen more pick plays than I care for as well.

ChrisG
09-20-2012, 01:24 PM
I think my issues aren't in 'volume' of flags...its the late flags when the home team's fans get loud or the late flag when a home WR asks for one....the bad ball spots and all the friggin' holding going on that isn't called. Also, the players are starting to cheat more or at least trying to see how much they can get away with. I've seen more pick plays than I care for as well.

Denver almost came back and won because of a huge pick in the 4th quarter. I think it was on the last TD they scored. The DB got layed out onto his back by a pick. I believe it was right in front of the ref. Havent been able to find a clip of it though.

disaacks3
09-20-2012, 01:41 PM
I think my issues aren't in 'volume' of flags...its the late flags when the home team's fans get loud or the late flag when a home WR asks for one....the bad ball spots and all the friggin' holding going on that isn't called. Also, the players are starting to cheat more or at least trying to see how much they can get away with. I've seen more pick plays than I care for as well.

Yep, the part that's killing me is all the mugging of WRs going on. I have seen stuff like this since the 70s. If you have small receivers, you're going to have issues.

SheTexan
09-20-2012, 02:33 PM
I haven't thought they have been doing a bad job at all other than being slow. The regulars are losing their leverage week by week.

My thoughts exactly. They're learning as they go, NOT their fault the reg refs went on strike. If it takes them a little more time to make sure of a call, then so be it. Maybe they're just trying harder to GET it RIGHT, which is something the reg refs could care less about sometimes.

If anyone truly believes the reg refs don't have fav teams, and don't play FF, they are dreamin!! JMO!!

Mr teX
09-20-2012, 04:21 PM
One of the things i hate about the NBA these days is how players, coaches and to a small extent fans influence how the refs call a game with their constant whining and boo-hoo.

Seeing these replacement refs these 1st couple of games gave me that disgusted feeling like i'm watching an NBA game.....& i don't like it 1 bit b/c i LOVE NFL football. I've seen more late flags thrown in 2 weeks than i've seen in like 3 years of watching the NFL.

They're completely overmatched with all the testosterone flowing out there & you can see it....i don't care what the #'s say.

mattieuk
09-21-2012, 01:06 AM
You know what, screw it. I love having football season back. These guys that are going out there each week and taking a ton of **** from players, coaches and fans for a temporary job.

For fans that are concerned that 'XYZ' penalty is being called more, I can find a million posts on this board berating the 'regular' refs during past seasons. The majority of calls are opinion matters, and will be argued either way by two partisan groups anyway. A truly superior team overcomes a few poor penalty decisions from an official.

Thank you replacement refs - I hope a few of you turn your stint into a permanent role in the league. I'm so much happier debating a referees call, than discussing CBA details.

gtexan02
09-21-2012, 01:14 AM
I've seen more late flags thrown in 2 weeks than i've seen in like 3 years of watching the NFL.

....i don't care what the #'s say.

You can say you don't care what the numbers say, but it doesn't make you right. The average number of flags per game is down. Thats a fact. Its not a manipulation. Its a straight up, countable fact. Its all your perception, and its likely influenced by what you were expecting.

I guarantee you that if the NFL had not told anyone that there were replacement refs, 90+% of fans would have had no idea. But because they did know, they are paying more attention to the refs and the flags and its seeming like its some huge difference.

Vinny
09-21-2012, 04:21 AM
You can say you don't care what the numbers say, but it doesn't make you right. The average number of flags per game is down. Thats a fact. Its not a manipulation. Its a straight up, countable fact. Its all your perception, and its likely influenced by what you were expecting.

I guarantee you that if the NFL had not told anyone that there were replacement refs, 90+% of fans would have had no idea. But because they did know, they are paying more attention to the refs and the flags and its seeming like its some huge difference.
why does the fact that the number of flags per game being down equate to them doing a good job? If you are getting away with holding or setting an illegal pick that may be a good thing, but not for the guy who's being held of fighting off an illegal pick.

2012Champs
09-21-2012, 09:07 AM
why does the fact that the number of flags per game being down equate to them doing a good job? If you are getting away with holding or setting an illegal pick that may be a good thing, but not for the guy who's being held of fighting off an illegal pick.



His statement didnt say they were doing a good job. He was responding to someone who said "I dont care what the numbers say Ive seen more flags" if there are actually less flags then you havent seen more. Id also agree with his point but maybe not the 90% number that many people are looking at this harder because they know its not the normal guys, thats simply human nature imo

TexansLucky13
09-21-2012, 10:07 AM
The flags don't bother me so much, it's the game management.

What about when the Seahawks got a 4th timeout in week 1? These new refs are really lucky that the Cardinals ended up winning that game, because that would have sparked outrage.

Also, games seem to be getting out of control. That Atlanta-Denver game was complete chaos. When fighting starts to happen they need to be more proactive breaking that stuff up. As fun as that is to watch, I would rather see the pigskin getting tossed around.

2012Champs
09-21-2012, 10:13 AM
The flags don't bother me so much, it's the game management.

What about when the Seahawks got a 4th timeout in week 1? These new refs are really lucky that the Cardinals ended up winning that game, because that would have sparked outrage.

Also, games seem to be getting out of control. That Atlanta-Denver game was complete chaos. When fighting starts to happen they need to be more proactive breaking that stuff up. As fun as that is to watch, I would rather see the pigskin getting tossed around.



The league should empower and encourage the refs to take more control. Throwing some heavy penalties and possible tossing players if the penalties dont work will solve the issue. After that they could start impossing fines to teams as well.

Vinny
09-21-2012, 02:15 PM
Stuff like this is what I'm talking about. For the record, before the season started I had a long telephone discussion with infantry about pick plays (as well as other infractions) and how the non-calls were going to be bigger than the blown calls long run...

While the NFL muzzles coaches and players from complaining about the joke of replacement officials, the truth must come out:

Atlanta cheated Monday to beat Denver in a prime example of how the sport's integrity and the league standings are being compromised by substandard officiating.

With the game's outcome in the balance, Atlanta gained a first down, squelched a furious rally by the Broncos and iced a 27-21 victory with a pass play where the Falcons were obviously guilty of offensive pass interference that went unpunished by inexperienced NFL refs. Commissioner Roger Goodell should cringe with embarrassment if he inspects the third-down play by Atlanta with 2 minutes, 35 seconds remaining and the Falcons on their own 25-yard line.

Atlanta receiver Roddy White committed offensive pass interference against Denver cornerback Champ Bailey on a classic, illegal pick play that resulted in a six-yard catch by Julio Jones, the beneficiary of the Falcons' disregard for the rules in a situation where replacement officials would naturally be hesitant to make a crucial call certain to be unpopular with the home crowd.

Needing five yards to keep the drive alive and avoid punting to give Denver quarterback Peyton Manning a chance at late-game heroics, the Falcons set two illegal picks to free Jones on an underneath route.
With Bailey at the line of scrimmage in press coverage, he gets shoved down the field by White. Before the snap, the Atlanta tight end points at

Broncos safety Mike Adams, lining up a target to clear out even more space for a short, easy throw from quarterback Matt Ryan to Jones.

Read more: Did Falcons get away with illegal play to extinguish rally by Broncos? - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/lunchspecial/ci_21601368/did-falcons-get-away-illegal-play-extinguish-rally?source=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter#ixzz27853nVDq

Scooter
09-21-2012, 02:24 PM
that's the difference, it's not the number of calls but the accuracy. a hold is called when there was no foul, followed by an interference that gets missed. the regular ref's would've thrown just one flag as well, but they were more likely to get the two calls correct.

the way things are going, there should be quite a bit more calls being made to keep the games under control.

Showtime100
09-21-2012, 02:38 PM
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r65/ShowtimeN15580/Pet%20Funny%20Misc/263948_245676665554908_1519506852_n_zps5b1272f8.jp g

eriadoc
09-23-2012, 04:09 PM
I'm watching the 49ers-Vikings game right now, and the refs are just fkn awful. They are plainly incapable of counting to 3. They've given the 49ers free challenges and timeouts. That is the sort of thing I can't handle. If there was some subjective difference of opinion on whether the ball was fumbled, or feet out of bounds, etc., I get that. The regular refs screw that stuff up all the time, even if they do it quicker. But these guys just can't seem to get basic rules down.

If this was happening in the Texans game, I'd be totally pissed.

Cerberus
09-23-2012, 09:18 PM
I had seen little difference with them until the Raiders v. Steelers game. They let the Steelers score first on an illegal pick play, allowed the DBs to interfere and make illegal contact down field all day, and then didn't throw a flag for the hit that sent Darrius Heyward-Bey to the hospital; though I suspect a major fine will be coming to the Steeler player for leading with his helmet to the chin of a defenseless WR. Even the announcers were saying how the refs shouldn't have this down as fulfilling their bucket-list (having made in to the NFL), and needed to show up and officiate the game.

Here is the illegal hit on DHB:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000065214/article/darrius-heywardbey-carted-off-with-neck-injury?module=HP11_headline_stack

Scooter
09-23-2012, 09:27 PM
as the players and coaches adjust, these refs just keep getting more and more exposed. i thought the texans game was pretty bad, but others around the league are an absolute mess. i dont even want to look at the baltimore - new england game right now, it's a cluster ****.

Cerberus
09-23-2012, 09:41 PM
They are going to get someone killed or seriously injured if they can't control the games and keep them clean.

axman40
09-23-2012, 10:30 PM
The replacement refs still suck!
In todays Cowboy game a ref throw his at a WR who did not go out of bounds but did step and slip on the refs hat!
I guess someone will have to be lost for the season before the lockout will end!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUE3tyOZewc
:kitten:

gtexan02
09-23-2012, 11:00 PM
The replacement refs still suck!
In todays Cowboy game a ref throw his at a WR who did not go out of bounds but did step and slip on the refs hat!
I guess someone will have to be lost for the season before the lockout will end!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUE3tyOZewc
:kitten:

Now thats a pretty hilarious play. Glad no one was hurt...

NCTexan
09-23-2012, 11:30 PM
It seemed to me like there was an absurd amount of flags today. I don't have numbers but every time I looked at a TV today at the sports bar I was out it seemed like at least one game had a flag marker.

And holding is out of control in the Baltimore-New England game. I don't know if the players think they can get away with it or what but damn.

gtexan02
09-23-2012, 11:44 PM
Looks like they are getting worse
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8418497/referees-mistakes-shaky-calls-week-3-themes

Ruinondd
09-24-2012, 12:03 AM
Just watching the Ravens-Pats game drove me crazy.

eriadoc
09-24-2012, 12:50 AM
Looks like they are getting worse
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8418497/referees-mistakes-shaky-calls-week-3-themes

From the article, and pertaining to my post a few hours ago:

Referee Ken Roan said he twice granted 49ers coach Jim Harbaugh video challenges after Harbaugh called timeout in the fourth quarter. Neither challenge should have been allowed once Harbaugh asked for time.

"What I told him was, 'Well you challenged it not knowing what the result of the play was going to be,' " Roan said. "So I granted him the challenge and we went and looked at it. That was wrong. I should not have."

[+] EnlargeReferee
Jeff Gross/Getty ImagesIt was a bad Week 3 for many replacement referees, who continue to draw criticism from players and coaches throughout the league.

Both mistakes happened in the span of six plays in Minnesota's 24-13 upset of the 49ers.

"My interpretation of it was that he could do that based upon the time factors and not knowing it was a challengeable play to begin with when he called timeout," Roan said. "If you don't have a timeout to lose, you can't make a challenge."

They just don't know the rules. They're mot making judgment call errors - they just don't know the damn rules. It's amateur hour for a product that's worth billions. Ridiculous. And even more ridiculous for the Billionaire's Club that is haggling over a few thousand dollars to let it get to this point.

TheMatrix31
09-24-2012, 10:19 AM
Numbers don't mean anything. Just like how people bring up "equal foul calls" and "free throw numbers" when talking about NBA refs, as if that's supposed to make things better.

It's about quality. It's about missed calls. It's about when they happen in the game. It's pathetic. These replacement refs are a joke, and an embarrassment.

Luv_ya_blue
09-24-2012, 10:36 AM
From the article, and pertaining to my post a few hours ago:

They just don't know the rules. They're mot making judgment call errors - they just don't know the damn rules. It's amateur hour for a product that's worth billions. Ridiculous. And even more ridiculous for the Billionaire's Club that is haggling over a few thousand dollars to let it get to this point.

That's an important point.
Days or weeks isn't enough time to prepare for this stage.

The1ApplePie
09-24-2012, 10:39 AM
Romo got speared in the head and there was no flag. Not saying I want the "hand touched the helmet, 15 yards!" calls back, but good Lord.

HJam72
09-24-2012, 11:13 AM
http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php/2012/09/20/vegas-bookmakers-increase-over-under-gambling-totals-home-field-advantage-replacement-referees/

Seems there may well be something to some of our beliefs that the refs are giving in to crowd noise.

Makes our road win all the more impressive...

PS-I should mention that I found this through Steph. Stradley's (TexansChick) Chron.com article: http://blog.chron.com/texanschick/2012/09/texans-31-peytons-25-just-whew/

Mr teX
09-24-2012, 12:33 PM
His statement didnt say they were doing a good job. He was responding to someone who said "I dont care what the numbers say Ive seen more flags" if there are actually less flags then you havent seen more. Id also agree with his point but maybe not the 90% number that many people are looking at this harder because they know its not the normal guys, thats simply human nature imo

no thats actually not what i meant....i meant i dont care about thenumber of flags...i care about consistency, control and the flow of the game...thats where the replacement refs are failing the most... the number of flags is inconsequential because everyone knows u could call holding/PI on damn near every play.

Goldensilence
09-24-2012, 04:27 PM
no thats actually not what i meant....i meant i dont care about thenumber of flags...i care about consistency, control and the flow of the game...thats where the replacement refs are failing the most... the number of flags is inconsequential because everyone knows u could call holding/PI on damn near every play.

This is my exact problem. The number of flags being thrown is inconsequential in comparison to consistency in calling fouls. There is none and to me that is the biggest problem that is causing problems for teams.

toronto
09-24-2012, 04:44 PM
By my count, at least 4 games (Titans/Lions, Ravens/Pats, Steelers/Raiders and Bengals/Redskins) had critical errors made by officials that affected the result of the game. Not saying the fulltime refs would have been perfect, but no way this kind of shenighans goes down.

The integrity of the NFL is getting smacked the longer this goes on. You can see some of the officials confused, out of breath, or flat out shrugging...and i don't blame them - this isn't their dayjob.

Cerberus
09-24-2012, 06:57 PM
By my count, at least 4 games (Titans/Lions, Ravens/Pats, Steelers/Raiders and Bengals/Redskins) had critical errors made by officials that affected the result of the game. Not saying the fulltime refs would have been perfect, but no way this kind of shenighans goes down.

The integrity of the NFL is getting smacked the longer this goes on. You can see some of the officials confused, out of breath, or flat out shrugging...and i don't blame them - this isn't their dayjob.

In the end, the officiating didn't effect the final outcome of the Raider/Steeler game. Sure, the lack of calls against the Steelers for head-hunting (twice by Mundy) gave Darrius Heyward-Bey and Brandon Myers both concussions. And the Raider's LB Wheeler certainly should have been called for diving at Big Ben's legs. Of course, Pittsburgh scored first on an illegal pick play that ended up hurting Michael Huff. And naturally the Steelers should have been called on several plays where their defenders were grabbing and pushing well past the 5-yard cushion. And then there was the chop-block the Raiders should have been called for. However, in the end the outcome wasn't effected by the poor officiating, but some of the players got hurt because the officials weren't enforcing the rules and taking control of the game.

Correction:

Rule 12, Section 2, Article 2 : Chop Block

A Chop Block is a block by the offense in which one offensive player (designated as A1 for purposes of this rule) blocks a defensive player in the area of the thigh or lower while another offensive player (A2) engages that same defensive player above the waist.

Legal Chop Blocks
A Chop Block is legal in the following situations on Running Plays.
(a) A1 and A2, both offensive linemen, who are initially aligned adjacent to each another (sic) on the line of scrimmage, may chop a defensive player

Another UPDATE, this time from a Steeler fan:

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/09/raiders-cut-block-on-steelers-de-ziggy-hood-was-legal/

gtexan02
09-24-2012, 11:31 PM
Refs are royally ****ing the Packers. What a mess

toronto
09-25-2012, 12:00 AM
The debate over this is over. The league's credibility is now officically on the line. The end of this game is a complete disgrace.

AMartin56
09-25-2012, 12:09 AM
Agreed. Lockout has to end or the NFL is going to become a laughing stock.

Dutchrudder
09-25-2012, 12:13 AM
3 million dollars. That's the difference between the NFL and the real refs. What a disgrace. For 3 million dollars I could have won my fantasy football game tonight. Now I'm just a loser with a tie game on my record...

Also this:
http://i.qkme.me/3r1nxo.jpg

Cerberus
09-25-2012, 12:17 AM
This is the kind of crap the Raiders deal with from the regular officials, but now that it affects the other 31 teams everyone is up in arms. I'm actually getting a pretty good laugh out of this, because when it didn't affect their team everyone was cool with the poor officiating. Now that it is League-wide, people are pissed. Too funny.

eriadoc
09-25-2012, 12:17 AM
3 million dollars. That's the difference between the NFL and the real refs. What a disgrace.

3 million dollars split among 32 billionaires.

Rey
09-25-2012, 12:28 AM
The replacement refs still suck!
In todays Cowboy game a ref throw his at a WR who did not go out of bounds but did step and slip on the refs hat!
I guess someone will have to be lost for the season before the lockout will end!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUE3tyOZewc
:kitten:

That's pretty mild compared to the Ref that hit Orlando brown in the eye with the flag a few years ago and pretty much caused his eye to pop out.

I believe he received a nice sum of money for that incident.

MojoMan
09-25-2012, 12:34 AM
For all the problems with the current referees, it seems that many people have somehow forgotten about all of the complaining that there has routinely been, for as long as the NFL has been in existence, with the established referees that are now on strike.

gtexan02
09-25-2012, 12:35 AM
For all the problems with the current referees, it seems that many people have somehow forgotten about all of the complaining that there has routinely been, for as long as the NFL has been in existence, with the established referees that are now on strike.

Like when Ed Hochuli caused the Broncos to lose a game?
http://muckrack.com/link/6QpU/hochuli-apologizes-to-fans-for-blown-call-in-chargers-broncos-game

Rey
09-25-2012, 12:36 AM
Honestly, I like how these officials are calling penalties in regards to hits.

I like that they are letting them play some, but are mostly letting dealing with the blatant stuff. Jj watt had a hit on manning in this last game that was about identical to the hit he had against the colts last year that was flagged for... but no one even batted an eye when he recently did it.

They are a good deal worse that the regular refs though and the fact that guys are able to get good clean hits on qb's now on a regular basis is a good thing IMO.

All the not knowing the rules stuff and just overall not having a great handle on the game is not good...but I still think they'll get better and people will start to get over the minor stuff towards the end of the season barring they don't have many more colossal screw ups...

Dutchrudder
09-25-2012, 12:37 AM
Nobody is saying the real refs are perfect, but right now it's about the same difference between McDonalds and Del Frisco's.

AMartin56
09-25-2012, 12:45 AM
Honestly, I like how these officials are calling penalties in regards to hits.

I like that they are letting them play some, but are mostly letting dealing with the blatant stuff. Jj watt had a hit on manning in this last game that was about identical to the hit he had against the colts last year that was flagged for... but no one even batted an eye when he recently did it.
.

Well except for the hits they are allowing in the secondary are sending people to the hospital. If you like 'letting them play some' buy some stock in a wheelchair company.

There but by the grace of God go us. The awful refs could do this sort of thing to the Texans. We'd be livid.

Rey
09-25-2012, 12:50 AM
Well except for the hits they are allowing in the secondary are sending people to the hospital. If you like 'letting them play some' buy some stock in a wheelchair company.

There but by the grace of God go us. The awful refs could do this sort of thing to the Texans. We'd be livid.

Do you remember the dunta Robinson hit? Or the James Harrison hits?

For the most part these refs haven't been allowing dirty stuff. I'm talking about the ticky tack calls that the real refs call that aren't getting called as much.

Dirty, illegal hits are going to happen regardless...the real refs didn't have the market cornered on stopping that.

Vinny
09-25-2012, 12:54 AM
Do you remember the dunta Robinson hit? Or the James Harrison hits?

For the most part these refs haven't been allowing dirty stuff. I'm talking about the ticky tack calls that the real refs call that aren't getting called as much.

Dirty, illegal hits are going to happen regardless...the real refs didn't have the market cornered on stopping that.
I think the argument is that players are pushing the envelope more now than if the regular ref's are here. I just hope we don't end up with a Darryl Stingley incident to get the NFL to see straight.

AMartin56
09-25-2012, 12:54 AM
I don't agree Rey. The games overall are getting out of hand. They ARE allowing the dirty stuff IMO.

Rey
09-25-2012, 12:58 AM
I don't agree Rey. The games overall are getting out of hand. They ARE allowing the dirty stuff IMO.

Well I don't agree and I haven't seen that. Both illegal hits on schaub were flagged. Ed reed was flagged for his hit against the patriots.

Those were the only two games I watched and saw those types of hits...do you have any specific examples of dirty/illegal hits going uncalled and/or un-fined?

I'll check them out if you do.

AMartin56
09-25-2012, 01:02 AM
Well I don't agree and I haven't seen that. Both illegal hits on schaub were flagged. Ed reed was flagged for his hit against the patriots.

Those were the only two games I watched and saw those types of hits...do you have any specific examples of dirty/illegal hits going uncalled and/or un-fined?

I'll check them out if you do.

Raiders game. Darrius Heyward-Bey. No flag. I don't care if the Steeler player gets fined or not. The damage is already done at that point.

Vinny
09-25-2012, 01:02 AM
Well I don't agree and I haven't seen that. Both illegal hits on schaub were flagged. Ed reed was flagged for his hit against the patriots.

Those were the only two games I watched and saw those types of hits...do you have any specific examples of dirty/illegal hits going uncalled and/or un-fined?

I'll check them out if you do.
Heyward Bey may argue that...after he gets out of the Hospital.

b0ng
09-25-2012, 01:28 AM
Like when Ed Hochuli caused the Broncos to lose a game?
http://muckrack.com/link/6QpU/hochuli-apologizes-to-fans-for-blown-call-in-chargers-broncos-game

This call is only well known because of how infrequently calls of that magnitude are that far off. They do happen even with the regular Refs, but this kind of crap is happening every week with the replacements on top of the games being longer due to how unfamiliar the replacements are with procedure.

And Cerberus, if you are in favor of your team getting "tuck-ruled" again, by all means keep playing the part of the victim. I am not in favor JJ Watt getting more non calls when he gets a QB JACKD UP. These Replacements are terrible and I'm not sure why you would put up with that as a football fan.

HoustonFrog
09-25-2012, 08:15 AM
Last night was a travesty. End of story. I know refs blew calls in the past but these were isolated incidents in a series of good games. We are looking at games that are turning into circuses where the refs aren't even qualified. It would be like being at job 10 years and when you are finally up for a review/promotion/big raise, they bring in 8th graders doing a Economics experiment to see if you make the grade. Its sad and laughable.

Heyward Bey may argue that...after he gets out of the Hospital.

Same with Romo. Cheap shot right to the head and no penalty.

Rey
09-25-2012, 08:29 AM
Raiders game. Darrius Heyward-Bey. No flag. I don't care if the Steeler player gets fined or not. The damage is already done at that point.

That stuff happens anyways. Regular refs or replacements. The regular refs probably would have flagged that hit though, but regardless those hits still happen.

AMartin56
09-25-2012, 08:41 AM
That stuff happens anyways. Regular refs or replacements. The regular refs probably would have flagged that hit though, but regardless those hits still happen.

Not at the pace we are seeing lately. But we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to research every bad hit or dirty play I've seen for you. I think most people think it's pretty obvious that the players are testing the new refs to find out what they can get away with.

I'm just glad the Texans have so far escaped this circus with three wins. But we WILL be cheated out of at least one game if this stuff continues and then we won't be liking how the refs are 'just letting them play'.

Mr teX
09-25-2012, 08:55 AM
yep, the no significant difference!!!!

If i were GB & Mike McCarthy, i don't care what kind of fine i recieved, i wouldn't have sent my players back out there for that meaningless extra point...not after getting jerked like that..

RazorOye
09-25-2012, 09:10 AM
NFL using officials kicked out of officiating Lingerie League games?

The Lingerie Football League Announces That It Fired “A Couple Crews Which Apparently Are Now Officiating In The NFL” Because Of Incompetence (http://deadspin.com/5946112/the-lingerie-football-league-announces-that-it-fired-a-couple-crews-which-apparently-are-now-officiating-in-the-nfl-because-of-incompetence)

from the article:

After the Hall of Fame game in August, Mike Pereira let it slip that Craig Ochoa, the referee who worked that game, had been fired from the Lingerie Football League.

the article says that initially, after Pereira's reference, the LFL was tight-lipped. But that changed after last night's game

from the LFL Website and facebook page:

Because of the LFL's perception it is that much more critical for us to hire officiating crews that are competent, not only for the credibility of our game but to keep our athletes safer. Due to several on-field incompetent officiating we chose to part ways with with a couple crews which apparently are now officiating in the NFL. We have a lot of respect for our officials but we felt the officiating was not in line with our expectations.

We have not made public comment to date because we felt it was not our place to do so. However in light of tonight's event, we felt it was only fair that NFL fans knew the truth as to who are officiating these games.

OH [BRA] SNAP!

Cerberus
09-25-2012, 09:18 AM
Nobody is saying the real refs are perfect, but right now it's about the same difference between McDonalds and Del Frisco's.

More like McDonalds and Burger King, it all depends on whether you like your burger charbroiled or fried.

And Cerberus, if you are in favor of your team getting "tuck-ruled" again, by all means keep playing the part of the victim. I am not in favor JJ Watt getting more non calls when he gets a QB JACKD UP. These Replacements are terrible and I'm not sure why you would put up with that as a football fan.

Uh, they got "Tucked" by the regular refs. They also have led the League in penalties 17 out of the last 61 years no matter who the players or coaches were; only the owner was constant. Now suddenly that Al Davis is dead, the Raider games are being called even, and it happens to be by the replacement officials; so yeah, I like the "fresh breath of air" they bring to the game. Look, you don't watch as many Raider games as I do, so you probably didn't see the games in the past where: 1). The Ravens had 13 men on defense for the final play of the game, and there was no call allowing the Ravens to win. 2). A KC Chief OL pulling a Raider DL down on top of him, and as they fell the RB ran into the DL leg, Larry Nemers (a KC native) called it a trip instead of an obvious hold and the Chiefs went on to score and win. 3). Against SD the Chargers WR spiked the ball when he wasn't touched, the previous year Plaxico did this and it was called a fumble, but against the Raiders it was called an illegal forward pass and SD was awarded a first down even though the penalty comes with loss of down, thanks SD native Mike Carey. 4). Nemers again calls a punt downed at the 3-yard line a touchback! WTF. Remember when the replacements did that during preseason? People said they had never seen that before, but I saw it happen during a real game.

Anyway the list goes on and on and on and on . . . you probably only know about plays like the Tuck, but miss so many other ones. So, all I'm seeing is the replacement refs incompetence match the regular refs' bias.

Walt Coleman = Chief fan from Arkansas
Mike Carey & his brother = Charger fans from SD
Larry Nemers = Chief fan from KC area
Ben Dreith = Bronco fan from Denver area

And those are just then ones I know about.

So anyway, what I'm seeing now is basically what I've watched in Raiders games for years. Some call it a conspiracy, I do not; but I think it is a predisposition, much like the Saints fan replacement ref that was pulled so he couldn't officiate the Saints game. But hey, the NFL will let Carey officiate Charger/Raider games, Nemers Chiefs/Raiders games, and so on. It makes no sense, and it has changed the outcome of numerous games. So, I see no difference, but that is because it is no longer just affecting the Raiders. You only see it now because it is League-wide and isn't just limited to a team you don't care about. Raider fans and players for years have been screaming about how different the Raiders games are called, but their screams have been like those of Catherine Susan "Kitty" Genovese.

Playoffs
09-25-2012, 09:29 AM
Interception (on the left), touchdown (on the right) ... intertouchceptiondown!

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2012-09/72514034.jpg

Cerberus
09-25-2012, 10:12 AM
Interception (on the left), touchdown (on the right) ... intertouchceptiondown!

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2012-09/72514034.jpg

At least it wasn't a playoff game like the Tuck game that cost the Raiders, or the Immaculate Deception that cost the Raiders, or the Rob Lytle fumble that cost the Raiders.

From my vantage point on the field -- and having watched the replays -- it should have been ruled an interception. Of course, I still believe the Raiders should have been given the Tom Brady fumble that was called an incompletion because of the Tuck Rule.

But going back to the Immaculate Reception, former Steeler Frenchy Fuqua, whom Harris' catch bounced off of, waited 10 years after his retirement to announce his opinion about whether or not it was a catch. He said it wasn't a catch because the ball bounced off him, and at the time NFL rules stated the ball couldn't touch two players from the same team. . . . http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8422558/technological-advances-decisions-not-immaculate

The Lytle fumble:

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/03/19/sports/sports-of-the-times-no-replay-on-nfl-s-wrong-call.html

midway
09-25-2012, 07:10 PM
I'm not sure if this has been brought up, but the numbers shown in OP don't tell the whole story.

Throughout the history of the NFL, the road team is penalized about 7% more than the home team. This can be accounted for by a few things, refs mildly cowtowing to the fan pressure, and general errors made by the visiting team due to crowd noise, nervousness etc. With the replacement refs the visiting teams have been penalized 23% more than the home team. That's a massive number and likely to be MANY standard deviations away from the mean, well into the realm of statistical significance.

Cerberus
09-25-2012, 07:51 PM
I'm not sure if this has been brought up, but the numbers shown in OP don't tell the whole story.

Throughout the history of the NFL, the road team is penalized about 7% more than the home team. This can be accounted for by a few things, refs mildly cowtowing to the fan pressure, and general errors made by the visiting team due to crowd noise, nervousness etc. With the replacement refs the visiting teams have been penalized 23% more than the home team. That's a massive number and likely to be MANY standard deviations away from the mean, well into the realm of statistical significance.

That is a significant swing in percentage points given the many years used to get the average.

Cerberus
09-25-2012, 09:59 PM
The Lytle fumble:

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/03/19/sports/sports-of-the-times-no-replay-on-nfl-s-wrong-call.html

From 3:30 in the video on shows the game including the bogus non-fumble that ended up costing the Raiders a playoff game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tWupN9h5N6s