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View Full Version : Right Guard: It's On


thunderkyss
09-16-2012, 08:02 PM
Looks like we've still got a competition going at RG.

I thoght Antoine was doing a fine job through pre-season & again week 1 against the Dolphins.

For whatever reason, we got a look at Ben Jones today & he didn't look half bad. This may be an interesting battle to watch as the season goes on.

Allstar
09-16-2012, 08:14 PM
Makes you wonder what's going on with Brooks. It'll be interesting if they try him out at tackle.

kiwitexansfan
09-16-2012, 08:18 PM
Well the running game worked much better today, although that might be as much about the defense we were facing as about the line play.

What was the split between their snaps?

GP
09-16-2012, 08:21 PM
Makes you wonder what's going on with Brooks. It'll be interesting if they try him out at tackle.

I noticed Brooks was inactive today, though.

Can't remember if it was injury related or not.

Rey
09-16-2012, 08:22 PM
Brooks was inactive last week too.

You can only carry so many and he's not one of the top guys.

badboy
09-16-2012, 08:42 PM
As a true right guard in college I expected Brooks to beat Caldwell easily. His size not just bulk but his ability to fit the ZBS may be more a problem than I thought. There has been no mention if he has kept his weight off & reducing since Kubes scolded him in camp. Perhaps it is an issue?

Insideop
09-16-2012, 09:06 PM
Anyone know if Caldwell is injured or not?

phantom17
09-16-2012, 09:10 PM
I thought Ben Jones played well. I really liked this pick from the get go. I like them tough & smart. :texanbill:

CloakNNNdagger
09-16-2012, 09:15 PM
Anyone know if Caldwell is injured or not?

Insideop, this should answer your question.


Nick Scurfield ‏@NickScurfield

Kubiak said it was planned for rookie Ben Jones to play every 3rd series today for RG Antoine Caldwell, They rotated all game #Texans

2:42 PM - 16 Sep 12

dsorc
09-16-2012, 09:36 PM
I see this more as preparation for Caldwell not being re-signed for next year. The only issue might be that we'll need to draft another OC since after Jones we have nobody capable of playing there.

wolf123
09-16-2012, 09:37 PM
I see this more as preparation for Caldwell not being re-signed for next year. The only issue might be that we'll need to draft another OC since after Jones we have nobody capable of playing there.

Jones can play both positions.

badboy
09-16-2012, 09:47 PM
Jones can play both positions.Yep but better hope Brooks develops if Caldwell gone and Jones has to play center if Myers hurt.

Insideop
09-16-2012, 10:00 PM
Insideop, this should answer your question.

Thanks!

Sounds like they are not completely satisfied with Caldwell and may be targeting Ben Jones as his replacement. He must be too good to just sit behind Myers at Center and they want to get him on the field anyway they can. I wonder if this means Brooks may ultimately be moved to LG and replace Wade Smith, who is getting a little "long in the tooth."

NitroGSXR
09-16-2012, 10:23 PM
Jones's forte is in the run game. We ran the run game a lot today. Even a ton of our passes were dumpoffs to the RBs. Might be why we stuck with him so much today?

Brandon420tx
09-16-2012, 10:40 PM
I see this more as preparation for Caldwell not being re-signed for next year. The only issue might be that we'll need to draft another OC since after Jones we have nobody capable of playing there.

In that scenario if Myers went down B.Jones would slide over to center and the backup guard would take that spot

thunderkyss
09-16-2012, 11:22 PM
In that scenario if Myers went down B.Jones would slide over to center and the backup guard would take that spot

I never liked those scenarios. If Ben Jones is our strongest RG & Myers is our strongest Center, then when you lose Myers, you're putting your 2nd best Center on the field with your 2nd best RG.

This may be a way to get Jones some snaps, just so he isn't overwhelmed taking over at Center one day. Who knows?

badboy
09-16-2012, 11:30 PM
In that scenario if Myers went down B.Jones would slide over to center and the backup guard would take that spotBrandon that is my point. 2013 Caldwell is let go, Myers gets hurt and Jones replaces him. Who plays RG? It would have to be Brooks and some are saying he has not done well. See what I mean?

dsorc
09-16-2012, 11:38 PM
In that scenario if Myers went down B.Jones would slide over to center and the backup guard would take that spot
Yes, the same way Brisiel was the backup OC last year. But even then, I think most teams prefer having a backup that can play OG/C rather than sliding a starter for continuity purposes. All I'm saying is that if Caldwell leaves, we're likely drafting his replacement. And if Jones takes over at RG then it makes sense to draft a OC/G rather than somebody who is only OG.

CretorFrigg
09-17-2012, 12:07 AM
I always assumed Antoine Caldwell would assume the starting position in a year or two after he was drafted. There were high hopes for him, but he's never lived up to expectations.

Competition is good, and may the best player win.

Wolf6151
09-17-2012, 02:20 AM
I always assumed Antoine Caldwell would assume the starting position in a year or two after he was drafted. There were high hopes for him, but he's never lived up to expectations.



My sentiments exactly. I'm very disappointed in Caldwell, he's been here long enough he should be dominating at RG by now instead of barley hanging on and possibly being replaced by a rookie. Caldwell hopefully can read the writing on the wall and should know that he's auditioning for the rest of the league this year. When the team drafts 2 rookies that can play your position, that's called a clue. Like a hit over the head with a 2x4 kind of clue.

HOU-TEX
09-17-2012, 10:34 AM
I haven't re-watched to game yet, but I will just to focus on the RG. Honestly, I didn't even notice until late 1st, early 2nd quarter. After I noticed him, my initial reaction was having a better running game with him in the game. But, I'll review the game again soon

Corrosion
09-17-2012, 10:38 AM
I saw a couple plays where they put in an extra lineman .... which was Jones , Also saw at least 1 series that Jones was at RG. He looks solid , much better than Caldwell IMO.

I'd say he would take that spot from Caldwell sooner than later .... but then who's the backup at C ??

The Pencil Neck
09-17-2012, 11:05 AM
I saw a couple plays where they put in an extra lineman .... which was Jones , Also saw at least 1 series that Jones was at RG. He looks solid , much better than Caldwell IMO.

I'd say he would take that spot from Caldwell sooner than later .... but then who's the backup at C ??

Jones.

We've had seasons where our backup at C was one of our Gs. We've had seasons were our backup at C was also our backup at G.

I think Jones is a better, scrappier, meaner player. I need to go back and watch the game and concentrate more on the guard play but from what I saw, he was our best guard. Better than Wade Smith.

At this point, I'm feeling OK about the right side of our line. Now the position that's worrying me is the LG.

Corrosion
09-17-2012, 11:05 AM
I haven't re-watched to game yet, but I will just to focus on the RG. Honestly, I didn't even notice until late 1st, early 2nd quarter. After I noticed him, my initial reaction was having a better running game with him in the game. But, I'll review the game again soon

A whole lot of that improved running game was not having Randy Starks and Paul Soliai on the other team.

beerlover
09-17-2012, 11:36 AM
Jones style is more Brisiel-esque destruction in phone booth, nasty mono el mono creating cut-back lanes for running game. Caldwell is more finesse which gives some pause he is better in pass pro.

MojoMan
09-17-2012, 11:39 AM
A few years from now, don't be surprised to see Brooks starting at right guard and Jones starting at center. Of course Chris Meyers is not going anywhere anytime soon, but sooner or later, there will be a changing of the guard.

HOU-TEX
09-17-2012, 11:59 AM
A whole lot of that improved running game was not having Randy Starks and Paul Soliai on the other team.

True, but we still seemed to be getting stuffed at the LOS more often than last season. Heck, I reckon I'm just being picky. It was a great game by everyone

Dutchrudder
09-17-2012, 12:06 PM
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76Texan
09-17-2012, 12:21 PM
Jones played every third series.

Both had a solid games with a few hick-ups each.

For a guy that played his first game, Ben did really well.

When we drafted him, I said that I saw him as a better prospect coming out of college than Caldwell.

BJ has quicker feet and better lateral agility than Caldwell.
Caldwell is probably the stronger guy, but BJ plays more consistently in his pad level.

Jones is a perfect fit with the ZBS, whether at C or at G.

When Myers was with the Broncos, he first started at LG with Tom Nalen at Center.
When Nalen went down, Myers moved to C, and another guy took his place (I think it was Kuper - who quickly became a good ZBS lineman as well).

I see Brooks as a bigger and stronger Caldwell, but he needs to keep his weigh in check and learn to improve his techniques in the ZBS.

I was never worried about the right side of the line.

The extra O-lineman we sometimes bring in was Harris (even in the Dolphins game.)
He's a pro that suits well in that extra OT slot in our jumbo package.

(We used Butler together with D.Brown and Winston before in this package).

76Texan
09-17-2012, 12:30 PM
Harris was in (as the extra RT) on that first goal-line drive where Foster scored his first TD.
He pan-caked the OLB 57, but BJ was stood up by Mosley (who made the tackle on Tate).

On the next play, Harris went out.
BJ went to the second level and made a nice cut block to allow Foster to cut back and scored.

thunderkyss
09-17-2012, 11:16 PM
I'd say he would take that spot from Caldwell sooner than later .... but then who's the backup at C ??

Wasn't Caldwell a Center at Alabama? I think most thought the writing was on the wall for Myers when we drafted AC in the third.

Premier
09-18-2012, 12:20 AM
i thought this thread was about deodorant..

The Pencil Neck
09-18-2012, 12:29 AM
Wasn't Caldwell a Center at Alabama? I think most thought the writing was on the wall for Myers when we drafted AC in the third.

I know I did. I expected Caldwell to be our center by mid-year. But then in training camp, the Texans coaches were all saying that they never drafted him to be a Center but to be a Right Guard. So I figured that was it for Mike Brisiel and then iirc, Brisiel got injured and Chris White got that RG spot instead of Caldwell.

IDEXAN
09-18-2012, 10:07 AM
Jones played every third series.

Both had a solid games with a few hick-ups each.

For a guy that played his first game, Ben did really well.

When we drafted him, I said that I saw him as a better prospect coming out of college than Caldwell.

BJ has quicker feet and better lateral agility than Caldwell.
Caldwell is probably the stronger guy, but BJ plays more consistently in his pad level.

Jones is a perfect fit with the ZBS, whether at C or at G.

When Myers was with the Broncos, he first started at LG with Tom Nalen at Center.
When Nalen went down, Myers moved to C, and another guy took his place (I think it was Kuper - who quickly became a good ZBS lineman as well).

I see Brooks as a bigger and stronger Caldwell, but he needs to keep his weigh in check and learn to improve his techniques in the ZBS.

I was never worried about the right side of the line.

The extra O-lineman we sometimes bring in was Harris (even in the Dolphins game.)
He's a pro that suits well in that extra OT slot in our jumbo package.

(We used Butler together with D.Brown and Winston before in this package).
Even if Jones is athletic enough to play as an interior lineman in a ZBS, frankly his conditioning looks poor to me. Perhaps they can shape him up in the upcoming off season with a better diet (no more c.roaches for you big boy) and a weight program ?

badboy
09-18-2012, 10:50 AM
Just a reminder that Wade Smith was coming off wrist injury for game two. http://www.kffl.com/player/6158/nfl/wade-smith

Bulls on Parade
09-18-2012, 10:51 AM
I thought Ben Jones played well. I really liked this pick from the get go. I like them tough & smart. :texanbill:
He also keeps Reliant Park very clean and safe by eating all of the roaches and insects. A total beast in every sense of the word.

Goldensilence
09-18-2012, 12:10 PM
Wasn't Caldwell a Center at Alabama? I think most thought the writing was on the wall for Myers when we drafted AC in the third.

Same here. He played multiple spots in Alabama as they needed, I believe there was a time he even started at tackle.

I thought for sure that Myers was going to get replaced because there was a time where he was getting blown into the backfield ona regular basis. I don't know if it has a bee na product of figuring out how to play at a heavier weight or getting better guard play, I suspect it's been a combo of both. Either way he's locked the C position down for some time here.

I know I liked the Jones pick from the get go and maybe with the frey going on at RG Benton and co decided to go ahead and try and see what he can do as being drafted as a combo C/G.

If he can solidify the spot as the season rolls forward it wouldn't surprise me that Caldwell is moved to backup center which is probably his more natural position anyway.

Brooks is raw and could really use this year to figure out his best playing weight in the NFL and get better technique.

My other bigger looming question is when does Wade's contract go up? This season or next?

badboy
09-18-2012, 12:21 PM
Wade Smith $2m 2012 and $3m next year.

MojoMan
09-18-2012, 12:24 PM
The Texans should receive a number of supplemental draft picks this season, probably including a 3rd rounder from the departure of Mario Williams and maybe a couple of others. Add this to the Texans seven existing picks, and a pretty stocked roster.

The Texans will have the luxury of draft another guard pretty high up to eventually replace Wade Smith, if they want to. And they will also be able to draft another quality backup tackle as well.

CloakNNNdagger
10-16-2012, 02:00 PM
FYI, Brooks is now down to 320 pounds.

badboy
10-16-2012, 02:05 PM
Did you see the RZ play when Newton moved to RG and Harris was RT? TD, BABY!

Goldensilence
10-16-2012, 02:16 PM
The Texans should receive a number of supplemental draft picks this season, probably including a 3rd rounder from the departure of Mario Williams and maybe a couple of others. Add this to the Texans seven existing picks, and a pretty stocked roster.

The Texans will have the luxury of draft another guard pretty high up to eventually replace Wade Smith, if they want to. And they will also be able to draft another quality backup tackle as well.

Forgot about that supplemental pick....would be very nice to have an extra 3rd or fourth or draft or use as ammo to move up.

However, my question to you is either Harris or Newton a long term solution at RT?

badboy
10-16-2012, 02:43 PM
Forgot about that supplemental pick....would be very nice to have an extra 3rd or fourth or draft or use as ammo to move up.

However, my question to you is either Harris or Newton a long term solution at RT?

I was tld supplementals cannot be traded but we can trade ours and keep supp.

Rey
10-16-2012, 02:53 PM
FYI, Brooks is now down to 320 pounds.

I heard earlier that if Caldwell can't go Brooks could see some time playing Guard...

76Texan
10-16-2012, 03:05 PM
Did you see the RZ play when Newton moved to RG and Harris was RT? TD, BABY!

No, BB, we were in our jumbo set both times.
Newton was at his normal RT spot and Harris was the extra OT on Newton's outside.
Jones was stil there at RG (one time he pulled to the outside behind both OTs.)
That's just how we roll quite often near the goal line.

76Texan
10-16-2012, 03:08 PM
FYI, Brooks is now down to 320 pounds.

I heard earlier that if Caldwell can't go Brooks could see some time playing Guard...

With neither guard fully healthy and B. Jones hitting a little of a brick wall, we might just see him on the field.

Dutchrudder
10-16-2012, 04:02 PM
No, BB, we were in our jumbo set both times.
Newton was at his normal RT spot and Harris was the extra OT on Newton's outside.
Jones was stil there at RG (one time he pulled to the outside behind both OTs.)
That's just how we roll quite often near the goal line.

That goal line series made me kind of sad. Ran a similar formation the first time and got nowhere, then put in another blocker on the right between the RT and TE, pulled the guard, had the fullback lead Foster again, and finally got in there. That seems like overkill to me, but it was completely necessary because we couldn't get the push needed without the extra guy.

76Texan
10-16-2012, 04:18 PM
That goal line series made me kind of sad. Ran a similar formation the first time and got nowhere, then put in another blocker on the right between the RT and TE, pulled the guard, had the fullback lead Foster again, and finally got in there. That seems like overkill to me, but it was completely necessary because we couldn't get the push needed without the extra guy.

Not really, Dutch.

Lots of teams, including the Pats, use that extra OT near the goal-line from time to time.

Or like the Dolphins, when they started all that wild cat thing, use an extra OT quite often.

Also, we have used this formation forever, when Salaam was still with us.
Near the goal-line, sometimes we would see D. Brown, Salaam, and Winston as OTs.

badboy
10-16-2012, 06:18 PM
No, BB, we were in our jumbo set both times.
Newton was at his normal RT spot and Harris was the extra OT on Newton's outside.
Jones was stil there at RG (one time he pulled to the outside behind both OTs.)
That's just how we roll quite often near the goal line.

I thought I saw Jones in there but when I looked for Myers and did not see him, I though he was out a play. So we went with 6 OL?

76Texan
10-17-2012, 01:09 PM
I thought I saw Jones in there but when I looked for Myers and did not see him, I though he was out a play. So we went with 6 OL?

We ran the exact same play on both TD runs.
Myers went immediately for a cut block both times; that's probably why you didn't see him.

According to Football Outsiders, Myers & W. Smith played every offensive snaps.
D. Brown was not in on 3 of them.

BTW, does anybody knows what Kubiak means when he says that Caldwell is going through the protocol with the league regarding his concussion.

Does that mean that he's automatically out for one game?

The Pencil Neck
10-17-2012, 01:16 PM
BTW, does anybody knows what Kubiak means when he says that Caldwell is going through the protocol with the league regarding his concussion.

Does that mean that he's automatically out for one game?

No. That means that he can practice this week but we won't know if he can play until they run the second test on him.

Basically, when you get a concussion, the protocol is to run the neurological tests against the player then and then a few days later. Then they look at the results of those tests, compare against his baseline, and decide whether he can play or not.

The second test could be run anywhere from Thursday to Saturday, I think.

76Texan
10-17-2012, 01:27 PM
No. That means that he can practice this week but we won't know if he can play until they run the second test on him.

Basically, when you get a concussion, the protocol is to run the neurological tests against the player then and then a few days later. Then they look at the results of those tests, compare against his baseline, and decide whether he can play or not.

The second test could be run anywhere from Thursday to Saturday, I think.Thanks, TPN!

Strictly curious here.
Who runs the test? The team or the league?
Is this self-policing in which case, the team just needs to submit the result of the test to the league, and that's it?

The Pencil Neck
10-17-2012, 01:45 PM
Thanks, TPN!

Strictly curious here.
Who runs the test? The team or the league?
Is this self-policing in which case, the team just needs to submit the result of the test to the league, and that's it?

I think it's the team doctors doing the test. They definitely do the first test because that's on the sideline. The second test might be done by someone else. When Kubiak was talking about it, it sounded like the day the test was done was dependent on someone else's schedule.

Rey
10-17-2012, 02:12 PM
Not really, Dutch.

Lots of teams, including the Pats, use that extra OT near the goal-line from time to time.

Or like the Dolphins, when they started all that wild cat thing, use an extra OT quite often.

Also, we have used this formation forever, when Salaam was still with us.
Near the goal-line, sometimes we would see D. Brown, Salaam, and Winston as OTs.


Yep...We used it last year too...Newton used to come in as the extra lineman..

CloakNNNdagger
10-17-2012, 02:22 PM
I think it's the team doctors doing the test. They definitely do the first test because that's on the sideline. The second test might be done by someone else. When Kubiak was talking about it, it sounded like the day the test was done was dependent on someone else's schedule.

One reason that I feel that this is mostly show is that actually the trainers are allowed to assess (not diagnose or make final recommendations) on the field and transmit their "findings" by phone to doctors. No neurologists are involved. If they are removed from the game, they can return to play with more stringent criteria.

Re. RG III:

“He seemed fine, seemed in good spirits. He appeared to be doing well,” Cousins said.

Griffin was scheduled to see an independent neurologist Monday evening. If he passes tests administered by that physician, he would be evaluated on a treadmill and do other physical work Tuesday, Shanahan said.

Before he can receive clearance to play, Griffin must pass neurological tests administered both by team doctors and an independent neurosurgeon, and must demonstrate that he can exercise at game-level exertion without a recurrence of concussion symptoms, according to Thom Mayer, medical director of the NFL Players Association.

The neuropsychological evaluation typically includes elements that measure reaction time and shape recognition, Mayer said. Many NFL teams use the computerized ImPACT (Immediate Post-Concussion Assessment and Cognitive Testing) test, Mayer said. To pass, Griffin would have to achieve results comparable to his baseline results from previous testing. Shanahan was unsure whether the Redskins employ the computerized testing system.

According to the ImPACT Web site, the test measures “verbal and visual memory, processing speed and reaction time.” Reaction time is measured to a hundredth of a second. The test, which takes approximately 20 minutes, measures aspects of cognitive functioning that include attention span, working memory, sustained and selective attention time, non-verbal problem-solving and reaction time.

Shanahan expressed optimism that Griffin would be able to play Sunday. But the coach said it is possible for the quarterback to suffer a setback in coming days that could prevent him from playing. link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/robert-griffin-iii-feels-good-but-faces-neurological-tests-following-concussion/2012/10/08/2a7142d2-1191-11e2-9a39-1f5a7f6fe945_story.html)

An initial evaluation re. a possible concussion by a neurologist vs a trainer/medical staff may be very more complete with more cautious approach to removal from the game. The problem is that there can be "skip" times where symptoms can be absent or quickly leave and come back over long periods of time. The subsequent evaluation following the player being permanently pulled from a game will be performed by a neurologist plus the medical staff . Most "independent" neurologists would feel pretty uncomfortable to allow a private patient to return the next week/game, even if the patient is symptom free during that week.

There is definitely a reason why the NFL and the NFLPA do not want a board-certified neurologist on the sidelines. There would be more players forced to leave the field........and stay off the field.

76Texan
10-17-2012, 02:39 PM
One reason that I feel that this is mostly show is that actually the trainers are allowed to assess (not diagnose or make final recommendations) on the field and transmit their "findings" by phone to doctors. No neurologists are involved. If they are removed from the game, they can return to play with more stringent criteria.

Re. RG III:
link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/robert-griffin-iii-feels-good-but-faces-neurological-tests-following-concussion/2012/10/08/2a7142d2-1191-11e2-9a39-1f5a7f6fe945_story.html)

An initial evaluation re. a possible concussion by a neurologist vs a trainer/medical staff may be very more complete with more cautious approach to removal from the game. The problem is that there can be "skip" times where symptoms can be absent or quickly leave and come back over long periods of time. The subsequent evaluation following the player being permanently pulled from a game will be performed by a neurologist plus the medical staff . Most "independent" neurologists would feel pretty uncomfortable to allow a private patient to return the next week/game, even if the patient is symptom free during that week.

There is definitely a reason why the NFL and the NFLPA do not want a board-certified neurologist on the sidelines. There would be more players forced to leave the field........and stay off the field.

You would think the NFLPA's stance is different than that of the NFL, it isn't?

76Texan
10-17-2012, 02:40 PM
Yep...We used it last year too...Newton used to come in as the extra lineman..

I remember mentioning it.

CloakNNNdagger
10-17-2012, 05:18 PM
You would think the NFLPA's stance is different than that of the NFL, it isn't?

No. The players want to have more "control" over if they (or want) feel they can return to the game. A neurologist will be more likely to recognize fine points that would make re-entry into a game unwise, and make decisions more on the side of caution.

76Texan
10-17-2012, 05:27 PM
No. The players want to have more "control" over if they (or want) feel they can return to the game. A neurologist will be more likely to recognize fine points that would make re-entry into a game unwise, and make decisions more on the side of caution.

Maybe it has something to do with their pocket book?

We've known some players have certain clause in their contract on how much they get paid depends on how much they play.

I guess it's a risk they're willing to take.

I think it was Tim Green in The Dark Side of the Game mentioning a player saying he needs to put food on the table just like everybody else.

CloakNNNdagger
10-17-2012, 05:50 PM
Maybe it has something to do with their pocket book?

We've known some players have certain clause in their contract on how much they get paid depends on how much they play.

I guess it's a risk they're willing to take.

I think it was Tim Green in The Dark Side of the Game mentioning a player saying he needs to put food on the table just like everybody else.

That's exactly why the NFLPA has been resistant.

76Texan
10-17-2012, 06:19 PM
That's exactly why the NFLPA has been resistant.Gotcha!

Thank you for the confirmation, Doc.