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dtran04
05-28-2005, 06:25 PM
I thought it was interesting to see what these guys think of all the O-Lines in the league. We have to tendency to either overrate or underrate our very own players. I think that our O-line needs some work but I don't think its the end of the world if nothing changes either.

http://www.footballguys.com/05smith_ol.htm

They have us ranked 16, which seems about right.

TexansTrueFan
05-28-2005, 06:55 PM
it seems about right to me, i dont think the o-line will be any worse this year , it should be better.

Vinny
05-28-2005, 09:47 PM
I try telling everyone that our line play is not as bad as most of us fans portray...but no one wants to listen to that.

Vinny
05-28-2005, 09:53 PM
We are an excellent drive blocking team. I talk to many people and I get the same thing (along with my own good eye for linemen thankyouverymuch) Everyone seems to think that the only skill a linemen needs is to be new (if he replaces someone he HAS to be better :brickwall ), and to be a pass blocker.

Lucky
05-28-2005, 10:16 PM
Since no one is running the wishbone, it's pretty important to pass block in the NFL. The NFL average for sacks allowed is slightly above 2 sacks per game. The Texans allowed just over 3 sacks per game. That's not an average performance. If the Texans had gotten an average performance in pass blocking, I doubt we'd hear much complaining about the O-line. And they give an "A" for depth? Even if the Texans sign another O-lineman, they're still a ways from having excellent depth on the O-line.

I think this is the 2nd time these fantasy rankings have popped up here. Hey, I'd love for the Texans to have the #16 O-line in the NFL. You can win with a line like that. They could become that good this year. But they weren't that good last year. I don't think it's the "end of the world" if the Texans wind up standing pat on the O-line. But they must pass block much better in order to be considered an average offensive line. I'd call these rankings premature, at best.

Vinny
05-28-2005, 10:20 PM
I never said pass blocking was not important. I think a ton of our problems is in our protection schemes. I don't see guys getting physically beat that often when I watch the games I have on tape.

wags
05-28-2005, 10:22 PM
I think a ton of our problems is in our protection schemes.

Does it normally take three years to develop a good scheme?

TopTexanFan16
05-28-2005, 10:25 PM
yah i kinda agree that our line isnt as bad as i think it is haha.....but in that link of all the things they commented on they said our O-line is becoming a force......i dont care how u put it our O-line is not becoming a force. sry but thats MHO.

Vinny
05-28-2005, 10:25 PM
Does it normally take three years to develop a good scheme?
I know for a fact that Pendry was upset about leaving his Guards in too many isolations. We didn't use any slide protections and we never used Dom for anything but chip blocking (he rarely did that).

beerlover
05-28-2005, 10:29 PM
"This group will never excel in pass protection but should be able to open gaping holes for the running game to exploit."

this sounds resonable to me. & exactly why the Texans first pick in 06 should be the best lineman available. if McKinney is the leader then the Texans need to begin grooming his successor, is it possible that Drew Hodgdon will be the one?

secondly Vinny alot of us agree with you that the line has its strengths its the weaknesses that hurt, especially Carr :crying:

Lucky
05-28-2005, 10:32 PM
I never said pass blocking was not important. I think a ton of our problems is in our protection schemes. I don't see guys getting physically beat that often when I watch the games I have on tape.
There may very well have been problems in the protection schemes. But I have seen the linemen get beat on several occasions. I've seen Wand tossed around like a rag doll. I've seen McKinney blown up too many times to count. And Wiegert was consistantly beaten off the snap by pass rushers.

Wand could (and even should) get stronger. It's very possible that McKinney & Wiegert had to play a less than 100% too many times last season (blowing up the grade A depth notion). They could improve on their performances, if healthy. I don't know how much of the '04 failures were due by design or by execution (as Dom tried to convince us on a weekly basis). Bottom line is they didn't play well and must get better. Better across the board, be it the players & the coaches.

wags
05-28-2005, 10:33 PM
I know for a fact that Pendry was upset about leaving his Guards in too many isolations. We didn't use any slide protections and we never used Dom for anything but chip blocking (he rarely did that).

Good Lord!! So we can't leave Wand one on one and we can't leave our guards one on one. Do we have anyone that can handle one man alone?

Vinny
05-28-2005, 10:33 PM
There may very well have been problems in the protection schemes. But I have seen the linemen get beat on several occasions. I've seen Wand tossed around like a rag doll. I've seen McKinney blown up too many times to count. And Wiegert was consistantly beaten off the snap by pass rushers.

Wand could (and even should) get stronger. It's very possible that McKinney & Wiegert had to play a less than 100% too many times last season (blowing up the grade A depth notion). They could improve on their performances, if healthy. I don't know how much of the '04 failures were due by design or by execution (as Dom tried to convince us on a weekly basis). Bottom line is they didn't play well and must get better. Better across the board, be it the players & the coaches.
I see linemen get beat on all 32 teams....and yes, on several occasions. I'm not a big fan of McKinney, so I'll leave that one alone. Weigert is fine if he is healthy, but since he isn't always healthy that is an issue. I agree that Wand will get better, but from what I see here on our boards most people think Wand is as good as he is ever going to get for some reason. He will defy all coaching and strength training and never get any better.

Vinny
05-28-2005, 10:34 PM
Good Lord!! So we can't leave Wand one on one and we can't leave our guards one on one. Do we have anyone that can handle one man alone?Most teams use slide protections and isolate their linemen less than we do. You probably just don't know it.

wags
05-28-2005, 10:37 PM
Most teams use slide protections and isolate their linemen less than we do. You probably just don't know it.

So why didn't we do that before?

Vinny
05-28-2005, 10:38 PM
I'm just a fan like you are. I don't know how we come to our decisions when we game plan. I'm just passing on my opinion and a tidbit of insight.

TexansTrueFan
05-29-2005, 02:28 AM
The worst possible thing we could do right now IMO is go to moving guys on our O-Line around and putting different people in. I feel we will be better off letting all the same guys who played together last year play together this year, they have had a little time to gel NOW. So they know eachother tendencys and the other guys abilities. Moving guys would just not be good for our team or Carr.

jacquescas
05-29-2005, 02:33 AM
so if they have us at 16 now what will we improve to if we sign Shelton?

TexansTrueFan
05-29-2005, 02:45 AM
what will improve to ??? Honestly i think we'll be worse if we take someone out and put him in,,,,we'd rank 23rd.........

nunusguy
05-29-2005, 10:11 AM
Two key decisions that undermined OL development:
(1) If you saw the Texans opener in '03 against Miami, you might agree with
me that Pitts played the best game ever by Texan LT, when you consider
he was going against Miami ProBowler Jason Taylor. Had Pitts not been moved
to guard last year, how good would he be starting his 4th year this fall as our LT ?
(2) Make it a higher priority this year to draft a top notch guard/center
instead of doing the PB trade, AG has another year or two but this OL situation needs to get fixed like yesterday.
I like this lineup: RT Wade
RG Weigert
C D.Bass
LT Pitts
LG Wand, McKinney, Weary, Washington, & M. Brown can fight it out

texasguy346
05-29-2005, 10:20 AM
We would've had to take Baas in the first round since SF nabbed him with the first pick of the 2nd. I'm not sure how far we would've been able to trade down, and still get good value for the pick. I like Baas too, but would you really want him at the 16th pick? Even in the low 20's it would be tough to take him.

TexansTrueFan
05-29-2005, 11:44 AM
The O-Line will be fine. so wee all need not worry, for Casserly knows what to do.

bigtex77
05-29-2005, 08:37 PM
All I know is I felt really bad for Seth Wand watching him try to single block Dwight Freeney last season. :brickwall They should have been able to adjust and give him some help. Even if they move Pitts back to tackle I'm not sure he can handle players of that caliber, even though I believe he is an upgrade.

TexansTailg8r
05-29-2005, 08:59 PM
Good point on Pitts Nunusguy. I think Wand has a lot of upside, but if Cass and Co. weren't worried a little, I don't think they would have made the pitch to Pace, wouldn't be going after Shelton, and wouldn't be giving Pitts reps at the LT spot. One of these things alone maybe doesn't say a lot, but all 3 together indicate a high level of concern.

ojthecat
05-29-2005, 09:46 PM
Good point on Pitts Nunusguy. I think Wand has a lot of upside, but if Cass and Co. weren't worried a little, I don't think they would have made the pitch to Pace, wouldn't be going after Shelton, and wouldn't be giving Pitts reps at the LT spot. One of these things alone maybe doesn't say a lot, but all 3 together indicate a high level of concern.


So if the coach's did not do any of these 3 things then you would feel better? Not me I am totally sold on Capers and Casserly and until they do not perform I will be. Look we are better than last year and they are trying to make us even better that's their jobs.

11-5 or 12-4 in 2005

TexansTailg8r
05-29-2005, 09:58 PM
of course not....I'm glad they are looking to improve this team...that's the point. I'm totally sold on Cass. The point to my previous post is that they are concerned somewhat about the LT position and in my opinion they should be. Some here have indicated that they are fine with the O-line the way it is. It's pretty clear to me that Cass. and Co. are not fine with it.

F-minus67
05-29-2005, 09:59 PM
So does Weary have a chance at beating Wiegert for the starting RG position? Because I thought that Brown played when Wiegert got hurt.

southtexan
05-30-2005, 10:23 AM
All I know is I felt really bad for Seth Wand watching him try to single block Dwight Freeney last season. :brickwall They should have been able to adjust and give him some help. Even if they move Pitts back to tackle I'm not sure he can handle players of that caliber, even though I believe he is an upgrade.
I keep hearing about what Freeney did to Wand last year, if I'm correct Freeney did the same to some of the best LT, I watched the Colts-Ravens games last season and Freeney did the exact same thing to the Ravens LT Ogden, isn't Ogden one of the best LT in the league?

bigtex77
05-30-2005, 11:21 AM
I keep hearing about what Freeney did to Wand last year, if I'm correct Freeney did the same to some of the best LT, I watched the Colts-Ravens games last season and Freeney did the exact same thing to the Ravens LT Ogden, isn't Ogden one of the best LT in the league?


Yes, I watched the same game as you, Freeney killed Ogden. That is my point, the coaches were asking a second year player to do what a All-Pro couldn't. Ironically, when the Ravens were pressuring the hell out of Manning didn't he remind you of David, just trying to throw it away, or get out of bounds?

bigtex77
05-30-2005, 11:48 AM
Texans line suck. They always have...... false hope is a bad thing. Last year, the sacks that they gave up were just from sloppy play and getting totaly overpowered. They all should be demoted to the collagete level.

I sure aint expecting much from this line.


Sometimes I wonder if certain fans know the difference between lack of talent and questionable blocking/pass protection schemes.

keyfro
05-30-2005, 12:07 PM
the thing about our line this year is that there wasn't any real impressive additions to it...we were all wanting an LT to be adding in either the first day of the draft or in FA...neither happened...riley to my knowledge has never played LT in the nfl and may not have the feet for the job...he will probably be a very good back up or rotational guy guy...shelton if signed i would expect to be our starting LT but it is not for sure that we will be the team he signs with...pitts needs to be left at LG where he is best suited...i feel that the last 6 games of the season he really started to come into his own at that position and moving him would just stunt everything...as for weary beating out weigert...that'll happen when :pigfly: ...weary has been a dissapointment in my opinion...he should have been our starting RG his second year but always seems to jump offsides...weigert is argueably our best lineman WHEN healthy...the center battle is the one i want to pay the most attention to...although it is unlikely that hodgdon will beat out mckinney this year it is likely for him to upseat washington for the back up role...washington then could try to upseat brown or weary for one of the back-up guard positions which i feel he could easily do...if we do not sign shelton this is how i see the depth chart for the o-line looking

wand pitts mckinney wiegert wade
riley washington hodgdon weary t. brown

another thing worth noting...riley has the body-type to be moved inside at guard...if that were to happen i would use him during short-yardage and goalline settings at the guard position on the left side...move pitts to LT and wand to TE at those times...and run the ball left everytime

throwANDREtheBALL
05-30-2005, 01:22 PM
run the ball left ?

:brickwall


so we're going to move everyone around on the line, in certain situations ?

:bomb:

bigtex77
05-30-2005, 01:55 PM
run the ball left ?

:brickwall


so we're going to move everyone around on the line, in certain situations ?

:bomb:


Stuff like this may work occasionally, but it doesn't take long to figure out.

throwANDREtheBALL
05-30-2005, 01:57 PM
:homer: HUH ?

bigtex77
05-30-2005, 07:57 PM
I was being sarcastic about moving everyone around and only running to the left.

awtysst
05-30-2005, 08:20 PM
I was being sarcastic about moving everyone around and only running to the left.

I kinda like the idea of using an Olineman as a tight end on a short run.

TexansTrueFan
05-30-2005, 08:25 PM
freeney beat alot of people last season so not just seth, so dont be to hard on the guy.

vtech9
05-30-2005, 08:31 PM
IMHO, Brandon Evans has a very good chance of coming in and unseating one of the OG's. From what I have seen of him in NFLE, Evans has been impressive. I think he will move into the back-up role at LG, and Weary, Washington, and Riley, could all be gone. If Riley can get into shape and play RG, he could possibly beat out Milford Brown as the back-up there, but if not Riley won't make the team. Right now, Weary's best chance of making the team is if he can win the back-up Center role.

U4ikrob
05-31-2005, 03:05 PM
IMO - The line is still in trouble - Still un-resolved and hasnt gotten really any better magically over the off-season with no changes in personel.

IMO - reworking the blocking scheme is little excuse for the line to give up 50 sacks in a season. These are professionals - guys most of them with a few years or more experience. Wand was the real rookie on the line having to play LT for the first time - and was man-handled accordingly for the most part. Honestly our O-line has been pretty poor all along. Our second year being the only banner year.

MY pick - Texans O-line Rank - 28

Overall I think our line ranks below average at every position but LG/RG and pretty poor in some positions. We are 3 years in and still unsettled at LT and have given up a record amount of sacks over a 3 year period comparable to some of the worst lines in the league. I would rank our O-line in the bottom quarter of the league at this point after 3 seasons and think we could do almost as good with 5 street free agents who were hungry for a job.

This article in the Chronicle sums up alot too about how I feel about the line. I guess my biggest problem with the line is how the FO has addressed or not addressed it for 3 years pretending it's a non-issue until it's such a huge problem everyone in the league is pointing it out from the fans to the QB

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/fb/texans/3200517

TexansTrueFan
05-31-2005, 08:18 PM
the line will be fine, yall all worry to much. Carr will not get sacked over 40 plus times this season. Thats a gurantee.

Davis37
05-31-2005, 08:53 PM
the line will be fine, yall all worry to much. Carr will not get sacked over 40 plus times this season. Thats a gurantee.

Ill hold to to that gurantee. If they do give up more than 40 sacks im gonna hunt you down! :slap: :neener:

U4ikrob
06-01-2005, 12:05 PM
the line will be fine, yall all worry to much. Carr will not get sacked over 40 plus times this season. Thats a gurantee.

I'm glad you and some others have so much confidence in this line as everyone else I talk to does not along with almost every commentator and teams in the league. Stats dont lie - 49 sacks last year is an eye-sore and to say everything is hunky dorey - we dont need to draft - we dont need to trade - we just need to give them time to gel more. IMO this is just a smoke and mirrors company line they are trying to pass-off on us fans and Mr. Mcnair because the truth is the FO and coaches are scared of what will happen. Scared for their jobs because IMO - They know they have blown it and are now in full-blown CYA mode in reagrds to the O-line problem they have - thus they are NOW trying to bring in more FA players and address the line - after the fact - after 3 years of poor play, after 3 drafts of players have passed by, after 3 off-seasons and FA time has passed - They now address the issue. - This just blows my mind they get to keep their jobs.

Trust me I understand the 5 year plan and my thinking is its -

To little - too late

I could say a lot more and re-iterate past points, but until the regular season gets here - I'm just specualting like everyone else and I hope it dont turn out like I am speculating or it's going to be a long, long year

Mr Shush
06-01-2005, 12:24 PM
You know, three years is quite a short time to expect anyone to put together a team with strong players in all areas. Would you rather look like the Browns, with strength no-where. Our (largest) remaining deficiency is the O-line: fair enough, Casserly and the rest are trying to sort it out. Would you be any happier if we had a good young O-line and a God-awful secondary? 7-9 in a very tough division is good going for a three year team.

Hervoyel
06-01-2005, 01:30 PM
I'm glad you and some others have so much confidence in this line as everyone else I talk to does not along with almost every commentator and teams in the league.

You talked to almost every commentator and team in the league? And you didn't summarize it for us and post it here?

Look, I understand you're concerned with what has (and/or hasn't) been done with the OL this off season but I have serious doubts that you have heard "almost every commentator" out there speak their mind on the Houston Texans OL and it's problems. Teams around the league are concentrating on their own problem areas. Nobody's holding press conferences to talk about someone elses offensive line. I call speculation and made up evidence here.

Stats dont lie - 49 sacks last year is an eye-sore and to say everything is hunky dorey - we dont need to draft - we dont need to trade - we just need to give them time to gel more. IMO this is just a smoke and mirrors company line they are trying to pass-off on us fans and Mr. Mcnair because the truth is the FO and coaches are scared of what will happen.

Stats do lie. Stats lie all the time. Stats are some of the most misleading things you can point to if you look at them all by themselves. Example: In 2002 David Carr was planted 76 times. Obviously his offensive line gave up 76 sacks right? None of those sacks could have been as a result of DC running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage could they? None of them could have been a result of DC holding on to the ball too long could they?

When your team gives up 76 sacks there's more to it than merely a problem on the OL. You put a veteran QB back there all year instead of a rookie and that first year line would have given up high 40's to low 50's. They wouldn't have been any better but their QB would have known how to deal with the pressure. Stats are one aspect of this. You can start with stats but in your argument here you completely ignore every other factor that causes the result you see on the field. EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY FACTOR aside from the sacks. You ignore the addition of Todd Wade who was in his first year here. You ignore the fact that Chester Pitts was playing LG for the first time in his life. You ignore the fact that Seth Wand was starting at LT for the first time ever (Here, at this level). You ignore injuries and the effect of an ineffectual running game over the first half of the season.

You're looking at part of a picture and drawing the wrong conclusion from it.

Scared for their jobs because IMO - They know they have blown it and are now in full-blown CYA mode in reagrds to the O-line problem they have - thus they are NOW trying to bring in more FA players and address the line - after the fact - after 3 years of poor play, after 3 drafts of players have passed by, after 3 off-seasons and FA time has passed - They now address the issue. - This just blows my mind they get to keep their jobs.

Trust me I understand the 5 year plan and my thinking is its -

To little - too late

I could say a lot more and re-iterate past points, but until the regular season gets here - I'm just specualting like everyone else and I hope it dont turn out like I am speculating or it's going to be a long, long year

I've seen almost no sign of anyone being scared for their job or having shifted into "full blown CYA mode". I see the Texans coaches and GM going about their methodical business of making this team better.

Watch the line when the season starts. Improvement does come from time together where the OL is concerned. It's not smoke and mirrors and it's not a lie they're passing off. If that's the case then it's a lie that's been told since the dawn of modern football. Every major overhaul of an offensive line costs something in terms of efficiency. The Texans have made major changes to their line every season since they took the field. Last year was no different.

Enhance your calm man, it's going to be ok. Actually it's going to better than ok. It's going to be pretty damned good. I'm keeping copies of all these threads just so I can go back at the end of the year and hunt down all the chicken littles to ask them how they feel. This is going to be fun.

Ibar_Harry
06-01-2005, 01:47 PM
Enhance your calm man, it's going to be ok. Actually it's going to better than ok. It's going to be pretty damned good. I'm keeping copies of all these threads just so I can go back at the end of the year and hunt down all the chicken littles to ask them how they feel. This is going to be fun.

Remember Hervoyel it works both ways. May be we'll be able to come back and say I told you so. It's really funny though, because in actuallity I hope you guys are right about the improvement in the O-line. However, I don't think that will be the case unless there are some personnel changes in the O-line. I think most of us would say that McKinney is a big problem. A lot of the discussion centers around Wand - Pitts certainly wants that position though - but probably Wand is not as responsible as McKinney is for many of the problems. Its funny how another poster was commenting about how much better the 2nd year O-line's performance was and yet when I bring that up I'm castegated. Year 3 was something else and the O-line scheme change and everything else resulted in a not so good year. There's an old expression don't fix it, it ain't broken. I'm refering to year 2. It will be interesting to look back to year 3 and say was that the start of something good or the demise of something good. I think the verdict is out on this one.

U4ikrob
06-01-2005, 02:17 PM
Until the regular season gets here - I'm just speculating like everyone else :bomb:

Hervoyel - Nope havent talked personally to every personel dept or commentator in the league - Certainly a summary on my part.

But I can quote more than a handful of sources and references and commentators and newspaper articles all pointing to it if need be. A list of over 10 sources off the top of my head. McClain and justice just did a radio show on the whole thing last week too. Not to mention, ESPN, HPF, Foxsports,CBSPortsline, Chronicle, SI, etc etc - the big issues to address before the draft for the Texans???? - O-line #1 on all of them. Go by most of the sports report sources around the league. The first thing when they talk about the Texans and improvement/draft etc - The O-line is the first topic usually listed. Sometime more than once.

Here are a few sources for those interested

http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/sports/mcclain/home/index.html
http://blogs.chron.com/lopezblog/
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/8522519
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=citadel-2_379682_116&prov=citadel&type=story
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/fb/texans/3139827
http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2024392

And actually I looked at all of the things you earmarked about our O-line last year. I am trying to look at the big picture [ie-3 -4 years of developing time] and the lack of results with it thus far.

Stats: - yep they do lie on occasion - but 76 sacks in year one, 29+ in year two [i think] and 49 in year 3 dont all = rookie mistakes either. They equal somethign else which is my point. More than anything I think they equal lack of talent.

Your points on - First year positions for Pitts and Wand. But both were in therr 3rd year with the team, Wade in his 5th or 6th I believe. My point is these guys are pro-players, not amatuers, not rookies. They are paid to perform and honestly I expect better results for my money. I saw lack of effort, lack of planning and lack of talent. I pay for tickets and TV like everyone else and want a good pro-product on the field. What I have heard thus far is a lot of excuses on why thigns are not like this or that on the team and little responsability being shouldered by anyone except DC.

Scared of losing jobs - I am willing to make a friendly wager if you will. I am willing to bet you a Coca-Cola that if Carr keeps getting sacked this up-coming year like last year - That by mid-season Somebody in the coaching dept will be losing a job or Carr will be injured severely and somebody will lose a job. Not to mention Mr. Mcnair coming downstairs and basically telling Charlie & co - they will do something to fix the O-line. Results will happen one way or another.

My point is not just a month ago on the front page of the Texans site there is a post about lettign thigns gel and everything being fine - then almost a week or so later they are signing Riley, bringing in other guys for depth, moving wand around and talk of how it didnt work out.

Bottom line for anyone reading my comments - I am a fan #1 of the Houston Texans. I am just finding it hard to get excited about some of the choices I keep seeing over and over again by our front office and coaches. Lack of effort by the team or a player is easy to see, But lack of effort by coaches and planning - you dont see that until it's usually too late. The saying goes "People are paid for results - not excuses" is a pretty universal statement for most jobs. IMO keep hearing more excuses from the FO and seeing less results on the field.

ojthecat
06-01-2005, 02:19 PM
Year 3 was something else and the O-line scheme change and everything else resulted in a not so good year.

Year 3 was our best year todate. We have improved every year. How can you say this type of stuff?