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Wolf
09-04-2012, 06:08 PM
ESPN was reporting it along with two other teams ( can't remember). I am on my phone but anyone else read or hear about it ?

drs23
09-04-2012, 06:12 PM
ESPN was replying it along with two other teams ( can't remember). I am on my phone but anyone else read or hear about it ?

Yes, I posted it yesterday. The other two teams are the Giants and the Lions.

wolf123
09-04-2012, 07:11 PM
That's why the Texans had to make difficult decision this off-season.

Tailgate
09-04-2012, 07:36 PM
Of our cuts this past offseason, anyone know how much are we paying still this year? Dead money that will clear next year, if any? Thanks!

EllisUnit
09-04-2012, 07:39 PM
The texans know what they are doing,,,,,,the FO has a plan and we will be fine next season.

Corrosion
09-04-2012, 08:51 PM
The texans know what they are doing,,,,,,the FO has a plan and we will be fine next season.

Smith has definately won me over with his shrewd moves regarding the cap .... He's shown he isnt afraid to take big risks while sticking with the plan.

McNair has definately built a solid front office , we're lucky fans to have such quality from GM to coaches , coordinators and assistants. Its taken a few years longer than anyone would like , but the results going forward will speak volumes. I really expect this franchise to be fighting for the whole sack of marbles year in year out for the next 4-5 years.


We've come a long way from the media making fun of us with images of HHWNBM lining up without an OL.

srrono
09-04-2012, 09:29 PM
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter
With Texans over cap, they used their $1.6 million salary-cap credit from Redskins and Cowboys to get under it. Houston now in compliance.

The Pencil Neck
09-04-2012, 09:32 PM
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter
With Texans over cap, they used their $1.6 million salary-cap credit from Redskins and Cowboys to get under it. Houston now in compliance.

And there you go.

The pros pulling out magic tricks I didn't even know existed.

CloakNNNdagger
09-04-2012, 10:00 PM
And there you go.

The pros pulling out magic tricks I didn't even know existed.

Yes, this year they managed to pull their money out of next year's ass.

steelbtexan
09-04-2012, 10:36 PM
Yes, this year they managed to pull their money out of next year's ass.

Hopefully the cap goes up quite a bit next yr. I have my doubts.

I find it curious that Rick/Gary were about to be fired, then go out and sign the best FA CB and S. All of the sudden the Texans are SB contenders. Even after losing Schaub/AJ. (Yeah signing top tier FA's doesn't matter) Unfortunately this meant having to let Rackers/Winston Briesel go. This is a trade off I would take every yr.

This should've been done 3 yrs ago. IMHO

redwhiteblue
09-04-2012, 10:38 PM
How much dead money do we have against the books this year from Ryans and Okoyes contracts?

CloakNNNdagger
09-04-2012, 10:48 PM
Hopefully the cap goes up quite a bit next yr. I have my doubts.

I find it curious that Rick/Gary were about to be fired, then go out and sign the best FA CB and S. All of the sudden the Texans are SB contenders. Even after losing Schaub/AJ. (Yeah signing top tier FA's doesn't matter) Unfortunately this meant having to let Rackers/Winston Briesel go. This is a trade off I would take every yr.

This should've been done 3 yrs ago. IMHO

Lombardi and others have reported that the 2013 salary cap is expected to be nothing but flat.

Corrosion
09-05-2012, 03:28 AM
Lombardi and others have reported that the 2013 salary cap is expected to be nothing but flat.

If thats the case , the Texans have their work cut out for them .... the list of FA's next year is a long one with everything from starters to quality depth.

The window of opportunity for a serious run could get closed if they cant figure out how to keep the important guy's and replace the quality depth with young cheap players.


And if they do win it all .... expect many of those FA's to be poached by teams with big $$ to spend.


From what I had read / heard prior to the draft , the 2013 and 2014 caps were suppose to go up significantly because of the new TV contracts kicking in - that only 2012 was going to remain flat with the new CBA.
That may have been bad information .... but considering the source , I find that difficult to believe.
If anything , having only partial information may have altered the numbers.

CloakNNNdagger
09-05-2012, 07:29 AM
If thats the case , the Texans have their work cut out for them .... the list of FA's next year is a long one with everything from starters to quality depth.

The window of opportunity for a serious run could get closed if they cant figure out how to keep the important guy's and replace the quality depth with young cheap players.


And if they do win it all .... expect many of those FA's to be poached by teams with big $$ to spend.


From what I had read / heard prior to the draft , the 2013 and 2014 caps were suppose to go up significantly because of the new TV contracts kicking in - that only 2012 was going to remain flat with the new CBA.
That may have been bad information .... but considering the source , I find that difficult to believe.
If anything , having only partial information may have altered the numbers.

John Clayton has been a pretty respected cap man. This is what he had to say back in the end of March.....pretty much in line with other sources knowledgeable of the situation.


Stagnant salary cap? Pretty much
Although revenues will soar in coming years, cap ceiling won't see significant hike
Originally Published: March 28, 2012
By John Clayton | ESPN.com

Perhaps the biggest surprise of the 2012 NFL owners meetings is the salary-cap projections.

Starting with the 2014 season, revenues are expected to rise significantly because of increased television dollars and the overall strength of the game. What won't rise much is the salary cap.

After having flat caps of $120.375 million in 2011 and $120.6 million in 2012, the NFL management council told clubs Tuesday that the cap won't increase much in the next three years. In fact, the 2015 cap may go up to only $122 million, according to management council projections.

Although the cap numbers for 2013, 2014 and 2015 still can be negotiated, projections point to very little increase. The cap may rise by only $300,000 in 2013, going to around $120.9 million. Even though increased network television money is coming in 2014, the cap is projected to go only into the $121-plus million range.

If that sounds amazing, consider this: The salary cap in 2009 was $123 million, higher than what is projected to be in 2015.

Where did all the salary-cap money go?

The answer resides in what has happened during the first two seasons of the new collective bargaining agreement. When the management council and the NFL Players Association ran the numbers from the percentage of money going to the players, the salary cap in 2011 was supposed to be less than $120 million. It could have been as low as around $116 million.

To put more salary money into free agency last season, the union was able to shift some of the benefit money into salary money. The result was a $120.375 million cap in 2011.

According to sources, the salary cap was supposed to be around $113.5 million this year. With 427 free agents, a huge cap decrease would have depressed the market and given almost too much contract leverage to teams. The union worked out a deal with the owners to trade off $7.1 million in benefit dollars per team from future years to have a $120.6 million salary cap.

What made things even more palatable for free agents was that approximately $283 million of unused cap dollars from 2011 was selectively rolled over into this year's cap. It's a plus for the players if teams roll over unused cap dollars into the next year, but eventually the flat caps would eat up the annual excess.

Already, it's causing teams to make tough decisions.

Players are still hoping for big salary-cap increases in 2014 and 2015, but the numbers aren't going in that direction. A flat cap means tougher negotiations for long-term deals.
Read the whole article, including specific mention of the Texans situation (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7744901/nfl-soaring-revenues-coincide-salary-cap-growth)

thunderkyss
09-05-2012, 08:18 AM
John Clayton has been a pretty respected cap man. This is what he had to say back in the end of March.....pretty much in line with other sources knowledgeable of the situation.

Where did all the salary-cap money go?

The answer resides in what has happened during the first two seasons of the new collective bargaining agreement. When the management council and the NFL Players Association ran the numbers from the percentage of money going to the players, the salary cap in 2011 was supposed to be less than $120 million. It could have been as low as around $116 million.

To put more salary money into free agency last season, the union was able to shift some of the benefit money into salary money. The result was a $120.375 million cap in 2011.

According to sources, the salary cap was supposed to be around $113.5 million this year. With 427 free agents, a huge cap decrease would have depressed the market and given almost too much contract leverage to teams. The union worked out a deal with the owners to trade off $7.1 million in benefit dollars per team from future years to have a $120.6 million salary cap.

Read the whole article, including specific mention of the Texans situation (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7744901/nfl-soaring-revenues-coincide-salary-cap-growth)

That's amazing...... we're screwed.

Stemp
09-05-2012, 09:03 AM
Everyone is screwed considering how teams backload contracts

Corrosion
09-05-2012, 09:36 AM
John Clayton has been a pretty respected cap man. This is what he had to say back in the end of March.....pretty much in line with other sources knowledgeable of the situation.


Read the whole article, including specific mention of the Texans situation (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7744901/nfl-soaring-revenues-coincide-salary-cap-growth)

I cant argue with the numbers .... just making the statement that earlier this year many expected the 2013/14 cap to have substantial increases.

We wont know anything for certain until we have the actual numbers to plug in .... But this isnt good news for many teams while others like Cleveland who decided to stay at the bottom end of the required spending will be able to cash in.

I was dreading next years FA class before reading this , now Im wondering if this is could be a one shot deal for the Texans - win now or take a step back having to reload.

The Pencil Neck
09-05-2012, 10:44 AM
It's the way the owners set it up and it's what the players were talking about.

The owners wanted a setup that would keep them from over-spending on players. They wanted something that would FORCE them to keep salaries down.

All these high priced FAs? They're just as screwed by the stagnant cap as we are. They're going to be forced to take lower contracts because there's not going to be anyone out there with enough space to sign them to these ever-increasing amounts.

The way things used to be set up:
1) Big name rookies got huge contracts based on their draft position.
2) Players coming out of their rookie contract got PAID based on previous performance.

With this stagnant cap and rookie cap, both of these things are greatly reduced. The guys who got paid in the old system got lucky because it's going to be harder and harder to get one of those HUGE contracts.

speedfreek
09-05-2012, 11:10 AM
KEEEEEO, K-E-E-E-O, KEO cut and the cap hit be gone, KEO cut and the cap hit be gone..

TJ

paycheck71
09-05-2012, 11:14 AM
KEEEEEO, K-E-E-E-O, KEO cut and the cap hit be gone, KEO cut and the cap hit be gone..

TJ

You still need to carry 53. Is he getting paid more than the minimum?

buddyboy
09-05-2012, 11:24 AM
KEEEEEO, K-E-E-E-O, KEO cut and the cap hit be gone, KEO cut and the cap hit be gone..

TJ

I heard somewhere that if we cut Keo, we actually take a cap HIT. Can anyone confirm this, or am I completely off base?

Section516
09-05-2012, 11:28 AM
John Clayton has been a pretty respected cap man. This is what he had to say back in the end of March.....pretty much in line with other sources knowledgeable of the situation.


Read the whole article, including specific mention of the Texans situation (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7744901/nfl-soaring-revenues-coincide-salary-cap-growth)

Not arguing, just here is some more information from Clayton, posted June 08. AF signed his deal March 5, 2012. Chris Myers March 16. So only high cost new deal with be Duane Browns.

An old post of mine.




In this piece about salary cap room, John Clayton shares some detail thatís quite positive for the AFC South.

And some of the money will have to be spent on retaining in-house free-agents-to-be -- a list that includes Connor Barwin and Duane Brown in Houston

Even with those pending free agents, Claytonís salary-cap list for 2013 is filled with good news for the AFC South.


The Texans will have $24.8 million.




http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/37621/a-look-ahead-at-2013-cap-situations

Reading the article, gives us 5th most cap room in 2013.

infantrycak
09-05-2012, 11:32 AM
I heard somewhere that if we cut Keo, we actually take a cap HIT. Can anyone confirm this, or am I completely off base?

There would be dead money but it isn't more than his $465k salary.

Insideop
09-05-2012, 11:37 AM
That's amazing...... we're screwed.

I'm not so sure we're screwed. Teams that draft well consistently and get FA's and draft picks that fit their system will probably be the ones in the playoffs the most. Teams that don't draft well and throw big money at the FA's every year, and have a "revolving door" with coaches and players will probably not do well. To me the Texans are set up to be one of the better teams in this salary cap era. They will have to continue to make tough choices every off season like they did this last one, but as long as they continue to draft well and get selected FA's that fit their system, they should be fine IMO. Time will tell.

paycheck71
09-05-2012, 11:41 AM
There would be dead money but it isn't more than his $465k salary.

Still need to sign someone into his spot, so I don't see how you can save money by cutting a min salary player, period.

Goldensilence
09-05-2012, 11:46 AM
Question is did Duane Brown's Contract put our back up against the cap this year? Even if so worth every damn penny.

I have to say I think the FO mostly made the right moves concerning getting Myers, Foster, and Brown's contract in this year.

Next year's big cuts/questions might be Antonio Smith, Connor Barwin, and Matt Schaub. Smith doesn't have a terribly bloated contract even though I thought we initially over paid him but, with some younger guys coming in and producing it could make him expendable for cap reasons. Barwin's on a contract year, which should at least be good as if not better than last year. He'll likely be a prized FA unless we can work out a reasonable extension during the season. Biggest question mark of the three is Schaub. Can he stay fully healthy for another year? Durability questions have plagued his tenure here and will the FO be willing to sink that kind of money into him despite being a top 10 QB when healthy. Big year for Matt.

infantrycak
09-05-2012, 12:08 PM
Well the NFL (the ones who count) say we have $2.7 mil in cap room - Link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/05/league-union-have-different-cap-numbers/#more-1199366)

speedfreek
09-05-2012, 01:13 PM
Well, that would certainly provide a logical reason as to why he's still on the team.

TJ

I heard somewhere that if we cut Keo, we actually take a cap HIT. Can anyone confirm this, or am I completely off base?

CloakNNNdagger
09-05-2012, 02:13 PM
Not arguing, just here is some more information from Clayton, posted June 08. AF signed his deal March 5, 2012. Chris Myers March 16. So only high cost new deal with be Duane Browns.

An old post of mine.




In this piece about salary cap room, John Clayton shares some detail that’s quite positive for the AFC South.

And some of the money will have to be spent on retaining in-house free-agents-to-be -- a list that includes Connor Barwin and Duane Brown in Houston

Even with those pending free agents, Clayton’s salary-cap list for 2013 is filled with good news for the AFC South.


The Texans will have $24.8 million.




http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/37621/a-look-ahead-at-2013-cap-situations

Reading the article, gives us 5th most cap room in 2013.

Even if this is close to true, there is the factor of the mandatory minimum expenditure to begin in 2013. There will be more money being thrown to a limited number of subelite/elite players. This will probably force more teams to pay franchise money to retain valuable players. I have a feeling that, due to so many unknowns, including those based on health and performance this year, numbers anticipated will not have the same meaning/implications by the time we deal with this issue next year.

utahmark
09-05-2012, 10:33 PM
Where are all those people that used to complain about our owner being cheap?

steelbtexan
09-05-2012, 10:49 PM
John Clayton has been a pretty respected cap man. This is what he had to say back in the end of March.....pretty much in line with other sources knowledgeable of the situation.


Read the whole article, including specific mention of the Texans situation (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7744901/nfl-soaring-revenues-coincide-salary-cap-growth)

Man, that DeMaurice Smith is a real genius.

He's going to make a great politician.

GP
09-05-2012, 11:20 PM
Where are all those people that used to complain about our owner being cheap?

He was...until he bought a GREAT d-coord, a GREAT CB, and a GREAT Safety.

To act as if he was always a big spender is so lame.

When the hell have we EVER been up against the cap prior to this year? Never. 9 years of being well under the cap, in year 10 we might be over or right at it...so unmm yeah, he has never spent like this before.

Texan_Bill
09-05-2012, 11:40 PM
Yes, I posted it yesterday. The other two teams are the Giants and the Lions.

Yup!!! And the Giants just sucked and the Lions are, well.......... "Paper Lions"!


*Pun intended*

steelbtexan
09-05-2012, 11:48 PM
He was...until he bought a GREAT d-coord, a GREAT CB, and a GREAT Safety.

To act as if he was always a big spender is so lame.

When the hell have we EVER been up against the cap prior to this year? Never. 9 years of being well under the cap, in year 10 we might be over or right at it...so unmm yeah, he has never spent like this before.

Dont let facts get in the way of an agenda.

This team could've been this good 3 yrs ago if BoB had spent the $$$$. I kinda feel sorry for Rick and Gary, that it took almost BoB losing his loyal fanbase to make BoB spend some $$$$ for a competent secondary and DC.
So that Gary could do the job he was hired to do.

Let the flaming begin.

utahmark
09-06-2012, 12:05 AM
He was...until he bought a GREAT d-coord, a GREAT CB, and a GREAT Safety.

To act as if he was always a big spender is so lame.

When the hell have we EVER been up against the cap prior to this year? Never. 9 years of being well under the cap, in year 10 we might be over or right at it...so unmm yeah, he has never spent like this before.

Not spending big money on free agents when this team had no chance of doing anything would of only made it impossible to go out and get a couple of guys last year(when it actually made a difference). Being smart with your money and building through the draft is not the same as being cheap. Our players who came from other teams have mentioned the difference of playing for cheap owners and how Bob is not cheap.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/15/johnathan-joseph-bengals-are-cheap-texans-are-not/

Now when we need to start spending a little money to compliment our draft we have seen that he will. I think we can put that fantasy to rest.

Texan_Bill
09-06-2012, 12:11 AM
He was...until he bought a GREAT d-coord, a GREAT CB, and a GREAT Safety.

To act as if he was always a big spender is so lame.

When the hell have we EVER been up against the cap prior to this year? Never. 9 years of being well under the cap *ahem* Not true, in year 10 we might be over or right at it...so unmm yeah, he has never spent like this before.

Dont let facts get in the way of an agenda.

This team could've been this good 3 yrs ago if BoB had spent the $$$$. I kinda feel sorry for Rick and Gary, that it took almost BoB losing his loyal fanbase to make BoB spend some $$$$ for a competent secondary and DC.
So that Gary could do the job he was hired to do.

Let the flaming begin.


Hey brothers, I think both of y'all have somewhat of revisionist histoty.


We've been up against the cap WAY prior to this year! Maybe bad decisions to get us there, absolutely... That said, to say this is the first year the Texans were in cap hell, well is flat out WRONG!

Couple that with the asinine assertion that Bob is cheap and hasn't spent money is equally ignorant. Obviously a lot of those "spendings' didn't work out maybe because of poor scouting (i.e. Anthony Weaver, etc.), but by the same token, how is that free-agent signing of Antonio Smith working out??

Quit trying to pick on one another, because at the end of the day, those guys on Kirby, know a hellavu lot more than either one of y'all do..

infantrycak
09-06-2012, 12:29 AM
Hey brothers, I think both of y'all have somewhat of revisionist histoty.

It is more than somewhat. The Texans have been one of the top payroll teams every year and have never had a significant amount of unused cap space. From the Capers era into the first couple years with Kubiak we had a ton of dead money. Spending has not been the problem. Spending wisely has. Having Gary Walker, Domanick Davis, Robaire Smith, etc. sign big contracts and then not contribute hamstrung the Texans.

ArlingtonTexan
09-06-2012, 12:41 AM
It is more than somewhat. The Texans have been one of the top payroll teams every year and have never had a significant amount of unused cap space. From the Capers era into the first couple years with Kubiak we had a ton of dead money. Spending has not been the problem. Spending wisely has. Having Gary Walker, Domanick Davis, Robaire Smith, etc. sign big contracts and then not contribute hamstrung the Texans.

I generally stay away from McNair is cheap crowd because what they really mean is "McNair did not overspend on a guy that i think he should spend the money on" We have been doing this dance for 6, 7, 8 years. The facts that the player(s) they want are known but not good and the Texans have had salary cap issues as many year as not mean nothing. It is not about what McNair spends but about some player that the Texans did not sign.

buddyboy
09-06-2012, 10:01 AM
It is more than somewhat. The Texans have been one of the top payroll teams every year and have never had a significant amount of unused cap space. From the Capers era into the first couple years with Kubiak we had a ton of dead money. Spending has not been the problem. Spending wisely has. Having Gary Walker, Domanick Davis, Robaire Smith, etc. sign big contracts and then not contribute hamstrung the Texans.

Nono, Bob is cheap. That's the only explanation.

badboy
09-06-2012, 10:38 AM
I see this as the league reducing player movement and controlling costs.
The new CBA cap is a way for the have nots and small market teams to force the other teams to "balance the league". For a limited time teams like Buffalo will be able to sign FAs such as Mario Williams but eventually even those teams will be restricted in spending. Parity, is it a beautiful thing?

I expect an end to back loading contracts for the most part and maybe a beginning to writing contracts much differently. I would think a vet's contract should reflect his projected better years with the higher salary. Using a player like Schaub for example, his skills should (not necessarily will) deteriorate as he gets older. IMO, his first year of any new deal should be highest and either level or reduce each year. At first, this probably will encourage most FAs to seek the golden goose elsewhere. I think this is to allow NFL owners to get a more manageable cost with rosters.

OrdinaryAvgGuy
09-06-2012, 11:32 AM
He was...until he bought [the best] d-coord, a GREAT CB, and a [good] Safety.

To act as if he was always a big spender is so lame.

When the hell have we EVER been up against the cap prior to this year? Never. 9 years of being well under the cap, in year 10 we might be over or right at it...so unmm yeah, he has never spent like this before.



Fixed that one for you


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

The Pencil Neck
09-06-2012, 11:43 AM
I see this as the league reducing player movement and controlling costs.
The new CBA cap is a way for the have nots and small market teams to force the other teams to "balance the league". For a limited time teams like Buffalo will be able to sign FAs such as Mario Williams but eventually even those teams will be restricted in spending. Parity, is it a beautiful thing?

I expect an end to back loading contracts for the most part and maybe a beginning to writing contracts much differently. I would think a vet's contract should reflect his projected better years with the higher salary. Using a player like Schaub for example, his skills should (not necessarily will) deteriorate as he gets older. IMO, his first year of any new deal should be highest and either level or reduce each year. At first, this probably will encourage most FAs to seek the golden goose elsewhere. I think this is to allow NFL owners to get a more manageable cost with rosters.

MSR.

This is exactly what I was talking about. The way this cap is going to work is effectively going to minimize Free Agency.

GP
09-06-2012, 04:57 PM
Not spending big money on free agents when this team had no chance of doing anything would of only made it impossible to go out and get a couple of guys last year(when it actually made a difference). Being smart with your money and building through the draft is not the same as being cheap. Our players who came from other teams have mentioned the difference of playing for cheap owners and how Bob is not cheap.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/15/johnathan-joseph-bengals-are-cheap-texans-are-not/

Now when we need to start spending a little money to compliment our draft we have seen that he will. I think we can put that fantasy to rest.

The question is about spending money, not about how or when to spend the money.

I don't even know how we can define what cheap is, tbh.

It would be better to ask ourselves questions such as "why did it take so long to hire a FULLY competent d-coord?" The short answer is that Wade was not available, but that neglects that there were other d-coord fish in the sea.

And then this is where people mock and say "OK, big shot...so who would YOU have liked to see as d-coord back when Smith and then Bush were d-coord???? huh????" To which I say, "That's not my job. That's Bob McNair's job, and his GM's job, and for whatever set of reasons they had at the time...most likely an issue with letting Kubiak pick his d-coords...Bob and Rick and Gary screwed up, twice, and hit pay dirt the 3rd time with Phillips as d-coord. Hooray!"

But let's just act like we inevitably needed to suck ass in order to get HERE where we are today. That's the ticket, isn't it? To act like some of you are better and smarter because you juuuuust knew that Bob would turn things around. LOL.

While I don't sit here and say the man is a complete hack, like some do, I will definitely say that he has finally learned that not everything Gary Kubiak decides is what needs to happen. Thank God we have a competent d-coord who knows what to do, and is allowed to be d-coord like he wants to.

Gene Chizik is a defensive mastermind, and HE was available at the time Kubiak became HC. I know, I know..."But Gene Chizik was going to be the Iowa State head coach! He never would have accepted a lowly d-coord job in the NFL!" Bull****. If you get the chance to make a jump to the big leagues, you do it. Because then you become a HC after proving your d-coord skills in the NFL.

Face it, Bob McNair let Gary have the store all to himself and Gary couldn't handle all the details. I don't care how it actually went down, but thank the good Lord Wade Phillips got here. And whomever got him here deserves a big Thank You from all Texans fans. I don't think that someone was Gary Kubiak, IMO, but oh well. I'm just glad Gary is not choosing d-coords anymore. Period.

b0ng
09-06-2012, 06:18 PM
The question is about spending money, not about how or when to spend the money.

I don't even know how we can define what cheap is, tbh.

It would be better to ask ourselves questions such as "why did it take so long to hire a FULLY competent d-coord?" The short answer is that Wade was not available, but that neglects that there were other d-coord fish in the sea.

And then this is where people mock and say "OK, big shot...so who would YOU have liked to see as d-coord back when Smith and then Bush were d-coord???? huh????" To which I say, "That's not my job. That's Bob McNair's job, and his GM's job, and for whatever set of reasons they had at the time...most likely an issue with letting Kubiak pick his d-coords...Bob and Rick and Gary screwed up, twice, and hit pay dirt the 3rd time with Phillips as d-coord. Hooray!"

But let's just act like we inevitably needed to suck ass in order to get HERE where we are today. That's the ticket, isn't it? To act like some of you are better and smarter because you juuuuust knew that Bob would turn things around. LOL.

While I don't sit here and say the man is a complete hack, like some do, I will definitely say that he has finally learned that not everything Gary Kubiak decides is what needs to happen. Thank God we have a competent d-coord who knows what to do, and is allowed to be d-coord like he wants to.

Gene Chizik is a defensive mastermind, and HE was available at the time Kubiak became HC. I know, I know..."But Gene Chizik was going to be the Iowa State head coach! He never would have accepted a lowly d-coord job in the NFL!" Bull****. If you get the chance to make a jump to the big leagues, you do it. Because then you become a HC after proving your d-coord skills in the NFL.

Face it, Bob McNair let Gary have the store all to himself and Gary couldn't handle all the details. I don't care how it actually went down, but thank the good Lord Wade Phillips got here. And whomever got him here deserves a big Thank You from all Texans fans. I don't think that someone was Gary Kubiak, IMO, but oh well. I'm just glad Gary is not choosing d-coords anymore. Period.

You seem to be basing your "McNair is cheap" argument around the selection of D-coordinators. I would probably try again because that doesn't make much sense.

EllisUnit
09-06-2012, 06:22 PM
You seem to be basing your "McNair is cheap" argument around the selection of D-coordinators. I would probably try again because that doesn't make much sense.

i dont really see where he is saying McNair is cheap, seems to me he is saying that originally all of the D.C were Kubiaks guys, and those experiments never worked. Thats what i'm getting from it.

b0ng
09-06-2012, 06:33 PM
i dont really see where he is saying McNair is cheap, seems to me he is saying that originally all of the D.C were Kubiaks guys, and those experiments never worked. Thats what i'm getting from it.

He was...until he bought a GREAT d-coord, a GREAT CB, and a GREAT Safety.

To act as if he was always a big spender is so lame.

When the hell have we EVER been up against the cap prior to this year? Never. 9 years of being well under the cap, in year 10 we might be over or right at it...so unmm yeah, he has never spent like this before.

Seems like a lot of words for a generally hands-off owner who has no problems paying players to stay here and come here as well as pay coaches and GM's that he likes.

I can name 10 owners off the top of my head that would drive me absolutely crazy with how ridiculous they are in public way more than Bob McNair has done:

1. Jerry Jones
2. Dan Snyder
3. Bidwells
4. Glazers
5. Bud Adams
6. Paul Brown
7. Tom Benson
8. Jim Irsay
9. Stephen Ross
10. William C. Ford

And there's a hell of a lot of perpetually bad team owners that aren't on that list. Seems like a lot of bluster over nothing really.

thunderkyss
09-06-2012, 08:06 PM
Antonio Smith
Wade Smith
Anthony Weaver
Ahman Green


All examples of our team spending money on FAs at the top of their FA class. The only difference between those guys & Manning/Joseph is that we got Manning/Joseph in an area of need when we had few "wholes" on the team.

Insideop
09-06-2012, 08:09 PM
seems like a lot of words for a generally hands-off owner who has no problems paying players to stay here and come here as well as pay coaches and gm's that he likes.

I can name 10 owners off the top of my head that would drive me absolutely crazy with how ridiculous they are in public way more than bob mcnair has done:

1. Jerry jones
2. Dan snyder
3. Bidwells
4. Glazers
5. Bud adams
6. Paul brown
7. Tom benson
8. Jim irsay
9. Stephen ross
10. William c. Ford

and there's a hell of a lot of perpetually bad team owners that aren't on that list. seems like a lot of bluster over nothing really.

Amen!

ObsiWan
09-07-2012, 06:34 PM
He was...until he bought a GREAT d-coord, a GREAT CB, and a GREAT Safety.

To act as if he was always a big spender is so lame.

When the hell have we EVER been up against the cap prior to this year? Never. 9 years of being well under the cap, in year 10 we might be over or right at it...so unmm yeah, he has never spent like this before.

And you have proof of this?
Link(s) please..... links that show what the salary cap was during those 9 seasons and how close we were to being up against it.

GP
09-07-2012, 06:59 PM
You seem to be basing your "McNair is cheap" argument around the selection of D-coordinators. I would probably try again because that doesn't make much sense.

Yeah, because Richard Smith and Frank Bush were really, REALLY prestigious d-coordinators who commanded a ****-load of money, right b0ng?

Oh wait, that would be someone of WADE PHILLIPS' level of expertise who commands a lot of money. I can see how that doesn't make sense to you.

GP
09-07-2012, 07:02 PM
And you have proof of this?
Link(s) please..... links that show what the salary cap was during those 9 seasons and how close we were to being up against it.

Oh come off it. Yeah, let me go to www.TexansCapSpaceEveryYear.com to show you.

You know damn well we never spent the allotment of cap space, and it wasn't as if we only had $500K of space or something, either. It was in the millions. Furthermore, there's no accurate handle on what our cap space was every year, and even guys like DutchRudder--guys who spend insane amounts of time trying to get a handle of cap space--don't get it right. The proof is that McNair (a) hired a bonafide d-coord and paid him crazy money like no other d-coord has ever been paid here before, and (b) the free agency acquisitions of Manning and Joseph, and (c) having to let go Brisiel, Winston, Ryans, Dreessen, and Allen. Especially letter C because we just had no cap space for like the first time ever.

But you know that, you just pull the "Oh yeah? Show me!" card. Weak sauce, and you know it.

What other season were we letting so many good players go because of cap problems????????????? Exactly.

ObsiWan
09-07-2012, 07:21 PM
Oh come off it. Yeah, let me go to www.TexansCapSpaceEveryYear.com (http://www.TexansCapSpaceEveryYear.com) to show you.

You know damn well we never spent the allotment of cap space, and it wasn't as if we only had $500K of space or something, either. It was in the millions. Furthermore, there's no accurate handle on what our cap space was every year, and even guys like DutchRudder--guys who spend insane amounts of time trying to get a handle of cap space--don't get it right. The proof is that McNair (a) hired a bonafide d-coord and paid him crazy money like no other d-coord has ever been paid here before, and (b) the free agency acquisitions of Manning and Joseph, and (c) having to let go Brisiel, Winston, Ryans, Dreessen, and Allen. Especially letter C because we just had no cap space for like the first time ever.

But you know that, you just pull the "Oh yeah? Show me!" card. Weak sauce, and you know it.

What other season were we letting so many good players go because of cap problems????????????? Exactly.

Just because everyone yelled it at the top of their lungs in the past doesn't make it factual.

I'm an engineer (http://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/akins_laws.html). I'm ALWAYS going to ask for the data (or try and find it myself). Anything else is just opinion or worse, marketing-type arm-waving.

oh and when i clicked that link I got this...
Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage

...there must be a typo in there someplace.

The Pencil Neck
09-07-2012, 07:41 PM
Yeah, because Richard Smith and Frank Bush were really, REALLY prestigious d-coordinators who commanded a ****-load of money, right b0ng?

Oh wait, that would be someone of WADE PHILLIPS' level of expertise who commands a lot of money. I can see how that doesn't make sense to you.

Coaches don't count against the cap.

For years, the Texans had one of the largest -- if not highest paid -- coaching staffs in the league. I'm not sure if we still do or not. However, if money was at issue, I'd imagine we could have done without a lot of those assistant coaches.

infantrycak
09-07-2012, 08:10 PM
Oh come off it. Yeah, let me go to www.TexansCapSpaceEveryYear.com to show you.

You know damn well we never spent the allotment of cap space, and it wasn't as if we only had $500K of space or something, either. It was in the millions.

Total BS. Keith Weiland and AJ kept track of the cap for years and we were never running around with millions to spend. 1-2 means nothing in the NFL.

utahmark
09-07-2012, 08:22 PM
Oh come off it. Yeah, let me go to www.TexansCapSpaceEveryYear.com to show you.

You know damn well we never spent the allotment of cap space, and it wasn't as if we only had $500K of space or something, either. It was in the millions. Furthermore, there's no accurate handle on what our cap space was every year, and even guys like DutchRudder--guys who spend insane amounts of time trying to get a handle of cap space--don't get it right. The proof is that McNair (a) hired a bonafide d-coord and paid him crazy money like no other d-coord has ever been paid here before, and (b) the free agency acquisitions of Manning and Joseph, and (c) having to let go Brisiel, Winston, Ryans, Dreessen, and Allen. Especially letter C because we just had no cap space for like the first time ever.

But you know that, you just pull the "Oh yeah? Show me!" card. Weak sauce, and you know it.

What other season were we letting so many good players go because of cap problems????????????? Exactly.

You kinda contradict youself.

Corrosion
09-07-2012, 08:24 PM
Total BS. Keith Weiland and AJ kept track of the cap for years and we were never running around with millions to spend. 1-2 means nothing in the NFL.

Leave him with his :tinfoil:


Someone has to be that guy , may as well be GP .... he does it well. :tiphat:


No hard feelin's GP .... :worldpeace:

Rey
09-07-2012, 08:53 PM
What other season were we letting so many good players go because of cap problems????????????? Exactly.

Well, I can't remember a season where we had that many good players hit the open market.

As you become better as s team, the players you lose will be better.

b0ng
09-08-2012, 08:15 AM
Yeah, because Richard Smith and Frank Bush were really, REALLY prestigious d-coordinators who commanded a ****-load of money, right b0ng?

Oh wait, that would be someone of WADE PHILLIPS' level of expertise who commands a lot of money. I can see how that doesn't make sense to you.

Seriously doubt McNair had input on what DC was chosen and how much to pay them. If I remember right, in terms of coaches anyway, we hired Alex Gibbs as an asst coach, when we already had an OL coach, along with some other assistant coaches and had one of the more expensive staffs around.

Even then, all your crying about who the DC was (and his salary, like that even matters) should be directed at Kubiak and Smith. I've said many times that McNairs spending habits resemble the GM at the time, not his own personal agendas for players and coaches like that jackass up 45N.

thunderkyss
09-08-2012, 06:27 PM
Well, I can't remember a season where we had that many good players :period:

Nuff said.....

I agree with your whole post, but for this conversation, that's all that needs to be said.



:kitten:
Unless you're GP of course.

CloakNNNdagger
09-08-2012, 11:10 PM
The teams with the least cap space are the 49ers with $880,000 and the Texans with $882,000. (The Texans could have had $1 million more, but they inexplicably opted not to carry over their excess space from 2011.)link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/category/rumor-mill/page/2/)

I have yet to see any reasonable explanation for this 2011 unused $1.08 million cap space not being carried over to this year..............other than the conclusion I reached back in June in another cap thread..............that the Texans forgot about and failed to file the request properly before the deadline. The additional $1.08 million could have without doubt found good use this year.

Under Article 13, Section 6(b)(v) of the CBA, each team may carry over any remaining cap room from one year to the next by submitting written notice, signed by the owner of the team, to the league office no later than 14 days before the start of the next league year. The written notice must indicate the maximum amount of cap room that the team wishes to shift from one cap year to the next.

steelbtexan
09-08-2012, 11:16 PM
link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/category/rumor-mill/page/2/)

I have yet to see any reasonable explanation for this 2011 unused $1.08 million cap space not being carried over to this year..............other than the conclusion I reached back in June in another cap thread..............that the Texans forgot about and failed to file the request properly before the deadline. The additional $1.08 million could have without doubt found good use this year.

Good job

Smith/Olsen

EllisUnit
09-08-2012, 11:27 PM
Makes no sense to me, why wouldnt they carry over cap money ? It dont hurt you if you do, did more cap space ever hurt anyone ?

Lucky
09-08-2012, 11:35 PM
I have yet to see any reasonable explanation for this 2011 unused $1.08 million cap space not being carried over to this year.....
I'm dumbfounded.
Makes no sense to me, why wouldnt they carry over cap money ? It dont hurt you if you do, did more cap space ever hurt anyone ?
If your club is $10 million under the cap already, the extra $1 million may not be needed. But if you're right up against the cap, as the Texans are, that $million could really come in handy. Looks like a boneheaded mistake.

The Pencil Neck
09-08-2012, 11:59 PM
I'm dumbfounded.

If your club is $10 million under the cap already, the extra $1 million may not be needed. But if you're right up against the cap, as the Texans are, that $million could really come in handy. Looks like a boneheaded mistake.

I'm taking the position that we don't know what happened or did not happen and why. The guys in charge of handling this stuff are pros and they know more about what's there and what's not there and what the various ramifications are to things.

They know what each guy is making down to the penny in ways we do not have access to.

It's like a few days ago when it looked like we were 700k over the cap and then there's some exemption thing and... voila! we're under the cap. That wasn't something that the pulled out of their asses last second. They knew they were going to do that from the start.

gtexan02
09-09-2012, 12:03 AM
I'm taking the position that we don't know what happened or did not happen and why. The guys in charge of handling this stuff are pros and they know more about what's there and what's not there and what the various ramifications are to things.

They know what each guy is making down to the penny in ways we do not have access to.

It's like a few days ago when it looked like we were 700k over the cap and then there's some exemption thing and... voila! we're under the cap. That wasn't something that the pulled out of their asses last second. They knew they were going to do that from the start.

Reminds me of a funny Seinfeld routine
The funny thing about being in these cabs is that when you're in Manhattan for some reason you don't get scared, no matter how fast the guy goes. Well, you know, he's driving fast and recklessly... but he's a professional. He's got a cab driver's license, I can see it right there.

He's a pro, he must be doing it right

Wolf
09-09-2012, 11:23 PM
I read a report that JJo had his contract redone and freed up 4million on the cap

Per kffl.com per John McClain twitter

http://www.kffl.com/team/18/nfl

badboy
09-09-2012, 11:37 PM
I read a report that JJo had his contract redone and freed up 4million on the cap

Per kffl.com per John McClain twitter

http://www.kffl.com/team/18/nfl

You did not mention same site reports Jameson got new contract also.

Lucky
09-10-2012, 01:08 AM
I'm taking the position that we don't know what happened or did not happen and why. The guys in charge of handling this stuff are pros and they know more about what's there and what's not there and what the various ramifications are to things.
Is your position that the PFT report that the Texans did not roll over their unused cap may not be true? Other than that, I don't know what you are referring to. The question is, did they rollover the unused cap space or not? I don't know the answer, either. But I would like to know what happened, rather than just assume it was handled correctly. Not that it would make a difference. I would just like to know whether these guys are doing everything they can to put the best team on the field.

The Pencil Neck
09-10-2012, 02:01 AM
Is your position that the PFT report that the Texans did not roll over their unused cap may not be true? Other than that, I don't know what you are referring to. The question is, did they rollover the unused cap space or not? I don't know the answer, either. But I would like to know what happened, rather than just assume it was handled correctly. Not that it would make a difference. I would just like to know whether these guys are doing everything they can to put the best team on the field.

My position is that:

1) The PFT report may not be true.
2) The PFT report may be true but there may be ramifications or extenuating circumstances to the rollover that we don't know about.

My experience with reporting and reporters is this: they always get it wrong. Always. Every time I've been part of something that a reporter eventually reported on, the reporter has screwed something up. Sometimes it's something as simple as misspelling a name (although when you're reporting the list of people who lifted at a competition and the weights they lifted and you end up misspelling names and transposing numbers, that's kinda important to the people you just reported on.) Sometimes it's not having complete information. Many times it's just not understanding everything that's going on.

There's no law or anything in place that requires that NFL teams or the league office be transparent to the public. And it's not in the best interests of the teams to be transparent to the public because that give strategic information to their opponents.

So when we start talking about contracts and how much people are making and how much they count against the cap and what the cap is and how to manage it and what allowances and exceptions exist and all that, I have a tendency to tune out. No one on OUR side of the fence really fully knows what's going on.

It just becomes fodder for people who have already made their minds up to believe one thing or another. If someone WANTS to think our FO is incompetent, then they'll find stuff that supports that belief. If someone wants to think our FO is competent, then they'll find stuff that supports that belief. But all anyone is "finding" are incomplete scraps of information that may or may not be true or even relevant.

They cut Winston, let Brisiel, Jacoby, and Mario walk, and traded Demeco. We know that. We don't necessarily know why: performance, scheme, cost-to-benefit ratio, cap space. Ultimately, we can only really judge the product on the field so that's what I want to concentrate on. To paraphrase what you said, the moves they make should be judged on whether they're fielding a great team.

If they can put a team on the field that gets to the playoffs and wins post-season games for multiple years, then they've done a good job. If not, then they haven't.

That's where I'm at with it.

EllisUnit
09-10-2012, 04:49 AM
All i know is we cant be that bad off, to sign Brown, Foster, Schaub to long term deals all in one season, either that are we are screwed for the next 5 years :good:

GP
09-10-2012, 07:48 AM
Coaches don't count against the cap.

For years, the Texans had one of the largest -- if not highest paid -- coaching staffs in the league. I'm not sure if we still do or not. However, if money was at issue, I'd imagine we could have done without a lot of those assistant coaches.

I know that. Cap doesn't matter IF the topic is about spending. Spending is spending, cap or no cap.

Bob finally loosened the purse strings and now he's got a taste of success, so he's continuing to spend (Schaub and Jamison deals prove so).

Nobody has a damn clue about cap space, obviously, so nobody can sit there and wag their finger at me about how we didn't have as much space in the past as I say we did.

No disrespect to the ones on here who tried hard to calculate our cap space, but you don't know.

Better d-coord. Better players. That happens by spending more money. It's not as far fetched as you guys are trying to make it appear. Occam's razor.

CloakNNNdagger
09-10-2012, 09:38 AM
John McClain reports this morning that after Schaub's and Joseph's contract, the Texans are $3.8 million under the cap.

Dutchrudder
09-10-2012, 10:36 AM
Is your position that the PFT report that the Texans did not roll over their unused cap may not be true? Other than that, I don't know what you are referring to. The question is, did they rollover the unused cap space or not? I don't know the answer, either. But I would like to know what happened, rather than just assume it was handled correctly. Not that it would make a difference. I would just like to know whether these guys are doing everything they can to put the best team on the field.

I can't say for sure, but I think I know what they did. All reports indicated that we had less than 1 million in capspace available at the end of the season last year, somewhere around 500k I believe, and the Steelers were in the same situation. Here is the language of the NFL CBA regarding rollover space is this:

(v) Carrying Over Room. A Club may "carry over" Room from one
League Year to the following League Year by submitting notice in writing signed by the owner to the NFL no later than fourteen (1 4) days prior to the start of the next League Year indicating the maximum amount of Room that the Club wishes to carry over. The NFL shall prompdy provide a copy of any such notice to the NFLP A. The amount of Room carried over will be adjusted downward based on the final Room available after the year-end reconciliation

There is no limit to the amount you can carry over, even a single dollar could be brought to the next year's cap. However, the year-end reconciliation includes incentive bonuses that are earned, and if they knew that a guy like Brice McCain was going to get 500k because he was played in all 16 games, then that would eat up the rest of the cap. Same could be said for Quin, Brown, or whoever else had incentives that were not considered "likely to be earned" at the beginning of the season.

So my guess is that by the time the Texans were required to submit the paperwork to carry over the money (February 28th), they knew that their player incentives earned would eat it up, so rather than submitting extra paperwork, they went to play a round of golf. I have no issues with that :)

thunderkyss
09-10-2012, 10:53 AM
Bob finally loosened the purse strings...

Have you loosened up on those purse strings for them season tickets yet? Bob's going to need some help making ends meet y'know.