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TexansNeedRBin05
05-25-2005, 08:58 PM
I sure hope we get Shelton and lets just for a second assume we do, What will are starting O-line look like?

LT. Shelton
LG. Pitts
C. Wand/Wiegart/Mckinney
RG. Wand/Wiegrat (dont know if i spelled Wiegrat right but)
RT. Riley

I for one like that! :) IF Carr gets sacked or David cant run behind that they suck.

BornOrange
05-25-2005, 09:00 PM
It will be the same starting line from last year, even if Shelton is signed.

Shelton is not that good, and Wand is improving.

TexansNeedRBin05
05-25-2005, 09:04 PM
It will be the same starting line from last year, even if Shelton is signed.

Shelton is not that good, and Wand is improving.

So your saying a guy that Cards were thinking about trading for Herny ISNT GOOD ENOUGH TO START ON ARE LINE! If thats true just send Shelton to Buffalo for Henry if Shelton signs. Either hes the most overrated player EVER or your just flat wrong.

texan279
05-25-2005, 09:09 PM
It will be the same starting line from last year, even if Shelton is signed.

Texans | Shelton to Visit - from www.KFFL.com
Mon, 23 May 2005 18:29:51 -0700

Adam Schefter, of NFL.com, reports free agent OT L.J. Shelton (Cardinals) will visit with the Houston Texans later this week. They see Shelton as a left tackle and someone who can protect QB David Carr's blind side.

I doubt we sign him as a backup...

gtexan02
05-25-2005, 09:10 PM
Also, Wade will definitely be a starter at RT.

texan279
05-25-2005, 09:15 PM
It will be the same starting line from last year, even if Shelton is signed.

Shelton is not that good, and Wand is improving.


LINK (http://www.suntimes.com/output/bears/cst-spt-bear251.html)

Meanwhile, at Halas Hall, offensive tackle L.J. Shelton passed his physical Tuesday morning, but the Bears will have to wait and see if they can sign him at a reasonable price. Kansas City, Jacksonville and Houston also are interested, and the Texans could plug Shelton into his familiar left tackle role almost immediately. The Bears probably would explore playing Shelton at guard.

D-ReK
05-25-2005, 09:40 PM
So your saying a guy that Cards were thinking about trading for Herny ISNT GOOD ENOUGH TO START ON ARE LINE! If thats true just send Shelton to Buffalo for Henry if Shelton signs. Either hes the most overrated player EVER or your just flat wrong.

Henry for Shelton didn't happen because Buffalo didn't feel like it was equal compensation, not because Arizona thought Shelton was just SOOO great that they would keep him until after the draft then cut him...

If Shelton is signed, he will likely take over for Wand at LT and will likely not be much of an improvement over him...The rest of the OL will stay the same as it was last year...

royce1054
05-25-2005, 09:52 PM
i saw of nflfans that Weigert, Walker and Wong were all possible June 1st cuts man i was like i dont think any of them will be gone. The only way wong is gone is if Boulware is coming to town in my opinion.

texan279
05-25-2005, 09:54 PM
Wong and Weigert aren't going anywhere, Walker on the other hand...

El Tejano
05-25-2005, 10:11 PM
I just hope this dude sees the other organizations and then sees what kind of first rate stuff we have here, hopefully that will convince him.

texan279
05-25-2005, 10:13 PM
I read somewhere he had a season ending knee injury last season or the season before I think, that worries me a little...

TexanFanInCC
05-25-2005, 10:23 PM
what about todd wade??

texasguy346
05-25-2005, 10:41 PM
Wade will definately be the starter at RT. As far as the Shelton for Henry deal DRek has it right. Arizona offered Shelton for Henry straight up, but Buffalo didn't feel that was a fair deal. They wanted Shelton and a 2nd Round pick I believe in exchange for Henry. Neither side budged much, and thats why the deal never went through. Its not very often that a team will let go of a young LT that they picked in the 1st Round without getting anything in return in terms of compensation. Obviously there are some questions surrounding Shelton, and Green and the Cardinals were willing to part ways with him. If we do pick him up hopefully he pans out.

Hervoyel
05-25-2005, 11:04 PM
So your saying a guy that Cards were thinking about trading for Herny ISNT GOOD ENOUGH TO START ON ARE LINE! If thats true just send Shelton to Buffalo for Henry if Shelton signs. Either hes the most overrated player EVER or your just flat wrong.


The Cards weren't "thinking" about trading Shelton for Travis Henry. They were trying to trade Shelton for Henry. Know what? The Bills weren't falling for it. Shelton's value is so high that Arizona just said "there's the door" and took the hit.

I believe I read that Shelton visited the Bills four times trying to sell that deal and they still wouldn't trade Henry for Shelton straight up.

I can't believe how many people in here think Shelton's going to step in and solve all of our LT problems.

Look at the facts guys. He was taken in the first round in 1999 but the Cardinals dumped him. He's a 7 year veteran and right in the middle of his best years but they dumped him. They tried to trade him for a solid but unspectacular second string running back on a team that needs a LT and couldn't do it. Letting him go eats up 3.3 million in their cap and yet they're fine with that? If I were Rod Graves I'd at least see if I could find someone out there willing to give me a 3rd rounder for him or something. Get a draft pick at least.

Left tackles are in enough demand that I can't imagine this guy could get the Cardinals something in return and yet that's exactly what happened. Anyone who thinks Shelton is anything more than depth here probably thought Gregg Randall was going to be the starting RT for the next 5-6 years.

wags
05-25-2005, 11:22 PM
The Cards weren't "thinking" about trading Shelton for Travis Henry. They were trying to trade Shelton for Henry. Know what? The Bills weren't falling for it. Shelton's value is so high that Arizona just said "there's the door" and took the hit.

Really? This was posted by Vinny a couple of weeks ago:

The Cardinals no longer have interest in Bills halfback Travis Henry. They seriously considered trading tackle L.J. Shelton to Buffalo for Henry, but they have changed their minds for two reasons. First, they see a great crop of running backs available in the draft. Second, they wanted Henry to play out the final year of his contract before giving him a big contract extension. Henry preferred to get his money now, and that's not a sell for the Cardinals.

I can't believe how many people in here think Shelton's going to step in and solve all of our LT problems.

I think Shelton will be an improvement over Wand, and we needs lots of improving on our OL.

infantrycak
05-25-2005, 11:34 PM
I sure hope we get Shelton and lets just for a second assume we do, What will are starting O-line look like?

LT. Shelton
LG. Pitts
C. Wand/Wiegart/Mckinney
RG. Wand/Wiegrat (dont know if i spelled Wiegrat right but)
RT. Riley

I for one like that! :) IF Carr gets sacked or David cant run behind that they suck.

Wand has experience playing one position, LT. So you have a guy one year off of signing a new contract that got benched beating him out to end up playing one of two positions he has never played, backed up by a guy who has never played the position in one case, etc. So basically our OL is one guy from last year, one guy rejected from his position last year, two guys rejected from their teams period and well heck, who is the 5th guy. Yeah, that should a great OL--:rolleyes:

infantrycak
05-25-2005, 11:39 PM
Really? This was posted by Vinny a couple of weeks ago:

I think Shelton will be an improvement over Wand, and we needs lots of improving on our OL.

Great example of how far the Texans have come. Talk of a trade of two players, neither of whom would upgrade the Texans. Shelton for Henry.

wags
05-25-2005, 11:47 PM
Great example of how far the Texans have come. Talk of a trade of two players, neither of whom would upgrade the Texans. Shelton for Henry.

Concerning the OL we have come from 76 sacks in year one to 49 sacks in year three. That's great progress to you? Obviously we have improved in other areas, but not significantly enough on the OL. As far as Shelton not being better than Wand, that will be settled later (hopefully).

Hervoyel
05-25-2005, 11:51 PM
Really? This was posted by Vinny a couple of weeks ago:

Yes it was and sure enough the Cardinals took a RB in the 2nd round. So work out for me how Travis Henry wasn't good enough but "nothing" was? Forget this story out of Arizona that Vinny (who's knowledge I absolutely respect by the way) posted because this has no bearing at all when you're looking at why the Cardinals told Shelton to take a hike. Their decision to go with a rookie RB was about dollars, not about their sudden realization that Travis Henry just wasn't worth a player of Shelton's caliber.

I think Shelton will be an improvement over Wand, and we needs lots of improving on our OL.

I don't think Shelton will be an improvement over Wand and I'm convinced that the line will be nearly unchanged in personnel this year. That I think will improve it.

Wish the season would get here so we could see who's right about this.

wags
05-26-2005, 12:03 AM
That I think will improve it.

Our sack total should improve just from the simple change to short, quick passes. This change is an obvious effort to protect Carr from the OL's shortcomings.

ccdude730
05-26-2005, 01:45 AM
Concerning the OL we have come from 76 sacks in year one to 49 sacks in year three. That's great progress to you?
you forgot to mention how in year 2 we only gave up 36 sacks. that is progress wouldnt you say?

in year 3 we gave up 49 like you said; however i do not think we took a step back because we moved pitts to guard, started wand, and brought in wade.

i think this past season plus more work in the offseason will once again cut down the sacks by a considerable amount. also helping will be this "new" style of more timing routes. shelton might be signed (i hope not) but i doubt he would unseat wand at the LT position.

I don't think Shelton will be an improvement over Wand and I'm convinced that the line will be nearly unchanged in personnel this year. That I think will improve it.

Wish the season would get here so we could see who's right about this.
exactly how i feel. these coaching sessions are providing some drama.

beerlover
05-26-2005, 03:17 AM
honestly this offensive line has me already confussed as to the solutions the Texans will try & contrive. adding questionable characters via free agency that other teams feel expendable does not seem like the pathway for success.

my vote would be to leave the line intact from last year at least at the start of the season and see if they've become familar with the system & each other before we make drastic changes. I'm all for giving these guys one more year, healthy to become a very good NFL line :)

jacquescas
05-26-2005, 05:47 AM
I'm all for signing Shelton as long as its not some huge contract. He can come and COMPETE for the job and either him or Wand will win out, regardless the competition will force someone to elevate their game, and lets not forget that having good backups on the O-line is important, injury and fatigue, it could be the first time we have depth behind our starters. Shelton would be a big improvement over Wand in the passing game.

Mr Shush
05-26-2005, 07:03 AM
I've said elsewhere that I'm pretty convinced Casserly is already eyeing the top OT prospects in next year's draft class, which would make a big contract for Shelton unlikely. If he comes cheap, great; otherwise, don't touch him with a bargepole. There's no harm in depth, but plenty in expensive depth.

jacquescas
05-26-2005, 07:07 AM
agreed, shelton could be a 2 year stop gap, this year, and next year while a high draft pick develops... that may be the plan

U4ikrob
05-26-2005, 09:20 AM
I sure hope we get Shelton and lets just for a second assume we do, What will are starting O-line look like?

LT. Shelton
LG. Pitts
C. Wand/Wiegart/Mckinney
RG. Wand/Wiegrat (dont know if i spelled Wiegrat right but)
RT. Riley

I for one like that! :) IF Carr gets sacked or David cant run behind that they suck.

If Shelton signs it will certainly be interesting to see the competition at LT. I dont think they will sign him right away though, but will wait for the June 1st cuts and see what else coems up on the market.

Shelton vs Wand -

I think Shelton has the size and technique to make the difference over the year and bea good LT - ??? is IF he wants to do that or if he is just looking for another check.

I think Wand could develop into a decent Backup LT - I dont think he has the size and strength/wingspan or technique to be a starting LT.

Shelton I give a 50/50 chance of us signing before June 1st -He wants to make visits to other teams and will do so right up to the cut. My take is we will wait and see what comes up june 1st on the market and then make him an offer if nothing better comes up. We need more depth on the line at this point and he would provide that right away along with competition for LT albeit the level of competition and talent is still under review at this point. Dom & co brought him in, will put him thru drills and work him out - we will get more info on this soon I feel.

Riley - Unless Riley really busts his hump in Mini camps and comes in under weight for Training camp - he will be cut. He needs to do alot of strength and weight work. to get back in game shape

I think our Starting OL and Depth chart will look something like this

LT - Wand/FA LT[Shelton] /Pitts
LG - Pitts/Brown/Wand
C - Mckinney/Washington/Rookie
RG - Wiegert/Weary
RT - Wade/Jones/Riley

infantrycak
05-26-2005, 10:10 AM
I think Wand could develop into a decent Backup LT - I dont think he has the size and strength/wingspan or technique to be a starting LT.

Obviously technique is something you are looking to develop in a developmental pick. As for size, how big are you thinking starting LT's are?

Seth Wand 6'7" 330 lbs

Orlando Pace 6' 7" 320 lbs
Walter Jones 6' 5" 315 lbs
Willie Roaf 6' 5" 315 lbs

Those are the best three LT's in the league and none are bigger than Wand. None of the top LT's from the past three drafts has been bigger either:

Jordan Gross 6' 4" 300 lbs
Robert Gallery 6' 7" 323 lbs
Alex Barron 6' 7" 320 lbs

U4ikrob
05-26-2005, 10:20 AM
I thought for some reason he was only like 6'3 - My bad Cak - Whats his wingspan - he looks like he has short arms for some reason when blocking thus it looked like bad technique??

Ive just watched him on game film and didnt seem to play that size when watchign him. He seemed to get handled pretty bad at times by smaller guys when I watched. Of course our line usually fell apart from the middle most times in less than 3 seconds too but thats a moot point.

I agree - they will keep "developing" him - hopefully he will respond well and play at a higher level this year alogn with the rest of the line.

infantrycak
05-26-2005, 10:50 AM
He has a wingspan that goes with his height, i.e. very good. He didn't struggle so much against smaller guys as he struggled against speed guys but then a lot of LT's do that is why Freeney, Taylor and Kearse have gotten so many sacks. He has strengthened up a ton since getting out of college where they didn't have a position coach for him and had only a rudimentary lifting program. He has plenty of strength now as evidenced by DD running so well behind him and Pitts. IF, the middle of the line will hold this year he should have a sack total drop like Pitts did.

IMO one of the biggest question marks for this year is Weigert staying healthy. He was very good in 2003 but was mediocre in 2004 due to niggling injuries.

Porky
05-26-2005, 11:25 AM
Some of the theories posited here are a bit off. No way Hodgden starts as a rookie, unless he looks like the next Mike Webster. Doubtful he makes the final 53 imo. Wand won't play center either. If Shelton signs (fingers crossed) Riley will have alot of trouble making the final 53 as well. And, there is no way he starts over Wade.

As for Shelton, I am somewhere between he's a useless signing that won't beat out Wand, to he is our savior. I realize he was released, but I don't think it was a talent issue as much as a "lazy" issue. I think Green and him didn't see eye to eye, and Green is using him to set an example. Maybe being released will give him a wakeup call. However, imo, even at his worst, he gives us an experienced legit LT, and (again imo) is a clear upgrade over Wand. Most likely, we draft a blue chip LT next year. Shelton starts this year, and next as we work in our new LT. Wand becomes a long term backup swing tackle. I agree with not over paying him, but as long as he doesn't have long term guaranteed money, it's a great signing. They need to front load as much of his signing bonus as possible, and give him more cash than other teams. We have the cap room to do this. It helps the line. I don't see the negativity to this deal that alot of you do.

DominatorDavis
05-26-2005, 12:10 PM
What is hurting Wand is that the guys that he is facing are considerably faster then him. He is just not that fast of a player. Now with drive blocking he is much better but the speedy guys are tougher for him to hang with. Look at some of the guys the Texan's Left Tackle will have to face this year:

(stats from 2004)

Bills- Aaron Schobel 8 sacks
Bengals - Justin Smith 8 sacks
Seahawks - Bryce Fischer 8.5 sacks
Colts - Freeney league sack leader (freakazoid) (2 times per year)
Jags - Hayward 10.5 sacks (2 times per year)
Baltimore - Adalius Thomas 8 sacks
Cardinals - Bertrand Berry 14.5 sacks

I just hope that who ever is in there - is ready.

Ibar_Harry
05-26-2005, 12:14 PM
I was viewing a video on the Houston Web sit on the line. It looks to me like the young center from AZ and Mynina Smith are at practice. I thought somewhere I saw rookies couldn't practice until June. Does anyone know the answer to that question? I'm going by numbers and I checked for duplicates so I'm not certain if there are some unposted duplicates.

The problem with what is going on right now is it would be exceedingly difficult to know how people would do in a game. Until we are in training camp I think it would be hard to judge the potential of a player. Its how they block in a competitive situation that determines what matters.

There was also a video of Carr throwing to the receivers. I think it was kind of showing their quick release attack. It looked to me like they were throwing very flat passes to people that might be impossible to throw to when the defense is on the field. Carr was obviously on target and winging them, but the same think applys here in that we aren't going to get some idea of the real thing until training camp.

There is just so much we are not allowed to due in these mini-seesions. Its kind of interesting, however, to watch what they are doing. Watch the linemen video and tell me does it look like they were trying to slug the dummies? What was your take on that video?

ojthecat
05-26-2005, 12:34 PM
I was viewing a video on the Houston Web sit on the line. It looks to me like the young center from AZ and Mynina Smith are at practice. I thought somewhere I saw rookies couldn't practice until June. Does anyone know the answer to that question? I'm going by numbers and I checked for duplicates so I'm not certain if there are some unposted duplicates.

The problem with what is going on right now is it would be exceedingly difficult to know how people would do in a game. Until we are in training camp I think it would be hard to judge the potential of a player. Its how they block in a competitive situation that determines what matters.

There was also a video of Carr throwing to the receivers. I think it was kind of showing their quick release attack. It looked to me like they were throwing very flat passes to people that might be impossible to throw to when the defense is on the field. Carr was obviously on target and winging them, but the same think applys here in that we aren't going to get some idea of the real thing until training camp.

There is just so much we are not allowed to due in these mini-seesions. Its kind of interesting, however, to watch what they are doing. Watch the linemen video and tell me does it look like they were trying to slug the dummies? What was your take on that video?


1st What the linemen were doing was not "slugging" it is a simple swim move.
2nd What is your point? I guess since we are not allowed (like every other team) to have full contact that we should not even practice. The point is this to go at full speed and for each player to learn where he is going to be on a specfic play and trust that his teammates will be where they are suppossed to be. This is the begining of our march to the playoffs.

Mr Shush
05-26-2005, 12:48 PM
'Cak, do you really rate all three of those guys above Ogden?

Not necessarily violently disagreeing, just saying I think such a claim would be controversial.

infantrycak
05-26-2005, 12:56 PM
'Cak, do you really rate all three of those guys above Ogden?

Not necessarily violently disagreeing, just saying I think such a claim would be controversial.

Nope, simple example of cranial flatulence--I forgot him. Just make my prior statement into Wand is bigger than 3 of the 4 best in the NFL.

Ogden may be the largest LT in the league--6' 9" 345 lbs. But heck, you can hardly use the largest of anything as the standard for how big someone should be.

infantrycak
05-26-2005, 12:59 PM
I thought somewhere I saw rookies couldn't practice until June. Does anyone know the answer to that question?

Rookies are allowed to start practicing when they are done with their school term, so it varies by school.

throwANDREtheBALL
05-26-2005, 01:57 PM
His size is good and his strength is fine now.........its his speed and agility....its his talent level at LT. Left Tackles need to have some good foot speed and good lateral movement. His talent level at LT just is not good. He's much better suited physically and talent wise to play RT.

Shelton is a former basketball player and has good footwork. He's a LT, that's what he likes to play, and that's where he's comfortable. Wand is not a LT.

It doesn't matter how many years a line plays together, if they are not talented enough to play their positions then the line will consistently fall apart.

Mckinney is best suited for the bench, as far as the best fit for his talents go, so therefore, he needed to be replaced first, not WAND. But, Shelton is an upgrade of WAND, so therefore the smart thing to do. The smarter thing to do would've been to draft Chris Spencer in the DRAFT, so we wouldn't have to play Mckinney.

I'm still praying for Hodgdon to be able to learn the offense quickly and learn everything that he needs to and get stronger, in order to beat out Mckinney. For a 5th round pick it will be a miracle, so I'm praying for a miracle.

royce1054
05-27-2005, 01:24 AM
What is hurting Wand is that the guys that he is facing are considerably faster then him. He is just not that fast of a player. Now with drive blocking he is much better but the speedy guys are tougher for him to hang with. Look at some of the guys the Texan's Left Tackle will have to face this year:

(stats from 2004)

Bills- Aaron Schobel 8 sacks
Bengals - Justin Smith 8 sacks
Seahawks - Bryce Fischer 8.5 sacks
Colts - Freeney league sack leader (freakazoid) (2 times per year)
Jags - Hayward 10.5 sacks (2 times per year)
Baltimore - Adalius Thomas 8 sacks
Cardinals - Bertrand Berry 14.5 sacks

I just hope that who ever is in there - is ready.

I think we should implement the NE plan. Those DE that like to get wide and then run around our LT we should use a slot WR to bump them back inside to the LT. I think that will give Wand or whoever ample amount of time and room to get his massive body of them. I think if we can hold off the DE's i think Carr will have alot of time to throw the ball and more hole for DD and crew. JMO

Ibar_Harry
05-27-2005, 02:51 AM
An article from the Chronicle on the Oline. (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3200517)

If you go to the Chronicle you can also get the Justice and McCLain show on the same subject. It doesn't look good at all. I've been posting for sometime we are in trouble and it certainly looks like that is the case. One of the other points I have made is that Capers does not know what he is doing with the offense. He has been, and always will be, uncomfortible with the offense. His focus is defense. I'm sorry but everyone including Casserly is saying the same thing, but I really don't think Capers gets it. As a person he is wonderful, but he is not head coaching material.

tsip
05-27-2005, 05:03 AM
"Training camp hasn't even begun, but feel free to worry about Carr's having to take more beatings in 2005. The Texans certainly are."

A quote from John Lopez of the Chronicle on 05/27/05--many posters
have been positive that our line would be better this year by just staying
pat and playing with the 'continuity' of the same players at the same
posisitions, so what is yall's take on this article? Anything to worry about
here?

rittenhouserobz
05-27-2005, 06:24 AM
It never fails. Each year a player(s) exceeds expecations. The Texans OL can be surprising. I am not going going to count them out before training camp starts. I would have to geuss that the OL has dedicated themselves to improving. As a faithful fan, I will support them until proven otherwise. This is a new year.

As for Shelton, lazy is the easiest thing to fix. If I were on a team with a losing record and no hope in sight, then I would be less motivated. What if we signed him and he rededicated himself to the game? He might just be a steal at this point. I also like Shelton, because he brings years of experience at the position. BTW if he is so bad, then how did he start for so long? I just think his attitude went sour on a sour team. He must have gotten tired of the QB carousel. That might be a huge attraction for him coming to Houston. Protecting the same guy each week has got to make it easier on the OL. Well I see him as a potential starting LT if we sign him. If he does not pan out then we draft our franchise LT.

I don't think Bob McNair is going to watch Carr get pounded week after week this year. Maybe they will use 6 OL this year and eliminate the TE position. Its not like they use a TE for pass catching anymore. :)

nunusguy
05-27-2005, 06:58 AM
Maybe they will use 6 OL this year and eliminate the TE position. Its not like they use a TE for pass catching anymore.
Why stop there ? We could regress all the way back to a single-wing, that
way we could put a couple more OL in the backfield as blocking backs. Nah,
we gotta be a little more sophisticated than what you suggest, use a little more imagination.

Texan Dave
05-27-2005, 07:00 AM
..........

Lucky
05-27-2005, 07:01 AM
...I've been posting for sometime we are in trouble and it certainly looks like that is the case. One of the other points I have made is that Capers does not know what he is doing with the offense. He has been, and always will be, uncomfortible with the offense. His focus is defense. I'm sorry but everyone including Casserly is saying the same thing...
No, you've posted that the Texans have been sitting on their hands and ignoring the woes on the offensive line. Now that they are attempting to sort out what they can do on the line by bringing guys in and swapping positions, you use that as an example of why they are in trouble. Heads you win. Tails they lose.

Please, provide a link where Casserly states that Capers doesn't know what he's doing regarding the offense. Everyone knows that Capers is a former defensive coordinator. If the Texans had hired a former offensive coordinator as head coach, you'd be able say the guy knows nothing about defense. It's a circular argument. This just in: Bill Belichick is a former DC whose focus is defense. Has that been a bad thing for New England?

For once, why can't you let these things sort themselves out on the field? If Capers can't fix the pass protection and the offense goes down the tubes, he'll get the pink slip you think he so richly deserves. You're on record. You can come back and remind all of us that you told us so way back when. Me? I need to see how the Texans finish the offseason, watch some training camp & preseason, and get into the regular season before I can determine what the Texans have or have not done to improve this team. If it's the same old-same old, I'll be with you calling for the guillotine. Until then, give it a rest.

dalemurphy
05-27-2005, 07:49 AM
An article from the Chronicle on the Oline. (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3200517)

If you go to the Chronicle you can also get the Justice and McCLain show on the same subject. It doesn't look good at all. I've been posting for sometime we are in trouble and it certainly looks like that is the case. One of the other points I have made is that Capers does not know what he is doing with the offense. He has been, and always will be, uncomfortible with the offense. His focus is defense. I'm sorry but everyone including Casserly is saying the same thing, but I really don't think Capers gets it. As a person he is wonderful, but he is not head coaching material.


What does Capers have to do with the offensive line? Let's see: Casserly, not Capers makes personnel decisions. There is an O.C. in charge of the offense and an OL coach in charge of the OL. Both coaches are respected and Pendry was sought after this offseason to become an O.C.

I'm just curious as to how Capers is impeding OL improvement. Obviously he is willing to make sacrifices to improve the OL... They were going to trade and sign Orlando Pace. Furthermore, Riley has been signed and Shelton has visited. For the first two seasons of the team's existence, they spent 3 first day picks on the OL (pitts, wand, weary).


IBAR, I'm sure you're a nice guye but perhaps you just aren't quality fan material. The combination of pessimism and ignorance is hard to stomach, IMO.

dalemurphy
05-27-2005, 08:01 AM
Lopez is an *****. "...their options have gotten more complex, which is never a good thing"... What?

This is so ridiculous. The team gets criticized earlier in the offseason for not doing anything about the OL struggles. Then, as they begin to address the problems, it is a sign of trouble?! I think the 49 sacks were a pretty big sign of trouble. Obviously the line play needs to improve. I just don't see how adding depth, addressing the protection schemes, and working with players by moving them along the line is a sign that it's in more trouble than it was in before. It's freakin' MAY!!!

ojthecat
05-27-2005, 08:25 AM
An article from the Chronicle on the Oline. (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3200517)

If you go to the Chronicle you can also get the Justice and McCLain show on the same subject. It doesn't look good at all. I've been posting for sometime we are in trouble and it certainly looks like that is the case. One of the other points I have made is that Capers does not know what he is doing with the offense. He has been, and always will be, uncomfortible with the offense. His focus is defense. I'm sorry but everyone including Casserly is saying the same thing, but I really don't think Capers gets it. As a person he is wonderful, but he is not head coaching material.


Ibar you have finally convinced me. The Texans will never win another game. Hey they will never score another point(on offense). Would you like to buy my tickets? They are of no use to me. using them only to see a team that couldn't beat Stratford High I don't think so. Hey I have an idea why don't you go to work as an interum GM I mean McNair has to see how bad Capers and Casserly are doing only getting beater each year. If IBar was in charge then wow we would win the SuperBowl for sure.

wags
05-27-2005, 08:32 AM
What does Capers have to do with the offensive line? Let's see: Casserly, not Capers makes personnel decisions. There is an O.C. in charge of the offense and an OL coach in charge of the OL. Both coaches are respected and Pendry was sought after this offseason to become an O.C.


As the head coach Capers is responsible for what the Texans do on the field. If he isn't then who is?

dalemurphy
05-27-2005, 09:00 AM
As the head coach Capers is responsible for what the Texans do on the field. If he isn't then who is?

I didn't say that Capers doesn't have the burden of responsibility as the head coach. I'm saying the problem with the OL is not a result of Capers disinterest in offense or lack of understanding of it, etc... as IBAR was arguing. If we're bringing in the wrong guys and drafting poorly, not coaching the line properly, etc... then the complaint should be that Capers needs to fire and replace the O coaches and McNair needs to replace Casserly. Capers has already intervened regarding the protection scheme this offseason. He understands the importance of an OL working properly.

IBAR's post essentially places all the blame of the OL on Capers and then calls him unqualified to be a head coach. RIDICULOUS!!

Honoring Earl 34
05-27-2005, 09:44 AM
:dangit: The NFL has a check and balance system most of the time . CC. is in charge of personel and football operations . Capers is in charge of what happens on the field .

The Texans went after Orlando Pace , I would consider that an effort to improve . They have also signed a free agent and drafted a center and are changing their offense . A move in a desperate attempt to patch things would only set them back further IMO. If there was a clear solution I'm thinking it would have been done by now .

:homer: Some of postings you read are funny cause it seems these writers can't believe the Texans brass are not listening to them . I will now transform myself into a make believe GM and be able to do what I want when I want and trade Bennie Joppru for Robert Gallery . See its easy to fix the Texans OL .

Ibar_Harry
05-27-2005, 11:04 AM
The problem is not what I am saying and have been saying, but now you are seeing everyone else start saying the same thing. When the GM has to tell the head coach to do something concerning the O-line, when the Owner has to say something, and the QB has to go to his head coach, yes you have a very big problem and if you can't see that, then OH WELL.

Yes, I believe Capers is in over his head and he is not head coaching material. Is he an excellent defensive coach, good person and you can go on and on and the answer is YES. However, I do not believe he should be a head coach. Head coaches are a different type of person and have broader visions of the total game. They are able to process qualitative and quantitative information and see its relavance. Any of us would walk up and say Capers is a heck of a guy and wonderful person. This has nothing to do about how nice a guy Capers is.

You have people like McClain who has been around a long time saying the Texans basically don't know how to fix the problem. That says a lot. I still say that Capers input to the draft has affected the decisions Casserly has had to make. Capers is predominately a defensive person. Part of the Texans problems stems from the injuries two years ago. I really believe they had planned to focus on the O-line last year and this year, but injuries on the defensive side of the ball overwelmed them. The result is a continuing problem with the O-line along with a Capers priority of Defense first. I will also say that I believe Capers has had too much confidence in his assistants and they have let him down. You can say what you want, but if you open your eyes its obvious.

Now, do I hope they find a way to get through this, Yes. DO I WANT THE TEXANS TO WIN THIS YEAR, YES. Do I want Carr to have a great season, yes. Again, I could go on and on, but the upstart of it all is we have a giant O-line problem to fix and its like they stuck their heads in the sand and hoped and wished it would go away, but it has not.

Having read some of the recent material on Shelton and the responses, I'm not so certain he will do what we want? We apparently don't want to offer him too much which I find to be an interesting comment. That means they are scared about something about him. On issues of character and such I will say Capers and Casserly have been correct. I keep hoping that may be like the Chargers last year a couple of our unhearlded rookies will come through and surprise us. I really would like to see a lot of younger bodies in the TC competing for O-line spots.

Honoring Earl 34
05-27-2005, 11:36 AM
:howdy: I don't have any doubts that Hudson Houck could improve this line . He is a really good coach and he's in Miami now I believe .
Its hard for me to believe our line can be that bad again and if they are heads will roll cause I believe theres some talent in our camp on the OL . I think if CC thought it was strictly a talent problem he would have worked harder on getting OL help . :homer:

rittenhouserobz
05-27-2005, 11:56 AM
In terms of heads rolling, to what extent will the Texans go to protect Carr? Do you think they will just do the 3 and 5 step drop passes? Will they substitute the RB on passing downs for the best blocker and abandon the run on 3rd and long? Will they find a better pass blocking TE that can neutralize Freeney with some help from an OT? The solution to the OL seems to elude me. I have given up on signing an OT in FA. I can't wait to see what this years blocking schemes will bring.

Hervoyel
05-27-2005, 12:03 PM
I need to see how the Texans finish the offseason, watch some training camp & preseason, and get into the regular season before I can determine what the Texans have or have not done to improve this team.


Should be mandatory reading for all board members. Maybe the most sensible thing in this thread. Thanks Lucky.

So many people in here watch the Free Agent market and decide right then wether the team's going to be any better on that alone.

Then they watch the draft and decide whether the team will be any better based on that alone.

Then they go back to looking at the remaining Free Agents and based on what the team does or doesn't do then they decide whether there will be any improvement and which coaches need to get a pink slip.

Once the June 1st cuts are out they do it all over again, Mini camp, Training camp, other teams cutting players ("We should get him!"), preseason, and on until the season starts and you can finally just (mostly) talk about what's on the field.

Wish it would hurry up and get here.

SheTexan
05-27-2005, 12:20 PM
Should be mandatory reading for all board members. Maybe the most sensible thing in this thread. Thanks Lucky.

So many people in here watch the Free Agent market and decide right then wether the team's going to be any better on that alone.

Then they watch the draft and decide whether the team will be any better based on that alone.

Then they go back to looking at the remaining Free Agents and based on what the team does or doesn't do then they decide whether there will be any improvement and which coaches need to get a pink slip.

Once the June 1st cuts are out they do it all over again, Mini camp, Training camp, other teams cutting players ("We should get him!"), preseason, and on until the season starts and you can finally just (mostly) talk about what's on the field.

Wish it would hurry up and get here.

Well said!! :)

dalemurphy
05-27-2005, 12:21 PM
[QUOTE=Ibar_Harry]The problem is not what I am saying and have been saying, but now you are seeing everyone else start saying the same thing. When the GM has to tell the head coach to do something concerning the O-line, when the Owner has to say something, and the QB has to go to his head coach, yes you have a very big problem and if you can't see that, then OH WELL.

Yes, I believe Capers is in over his head and he is not head coaching material. Is he an excellent defensive coach, good person and you can go on and on and the answer is YES. However, I do not believe he should be a head coach. Head coaches are a different type of person and have broader visions of the total game. They are able to process qualitative and quantitative information and see its relavance. Any of us would walk up and say Capers is a heck of a guy and wonderful person. This has nothing to do about how nice a guy Capers is.

You have people like McClain who has been around a long time saying the Texans basically don't know how to fix the problem. That says a lot. QUOTE]


I wasn't arguing to give Capers slack because he's a good person. I believe he's a very good head coach. I don't think Carr going to Capers has anything to do with Capers deciding to speak to Palmer. Perhaps the discussion with Casserly did, but if so, that's fine. That's the way things are supposed to work. Perhaps Capers did give Palmer too much credit and freedom last season. Well, that's been corrected.

You think that Capers doesn't have the vision to see and address problems outside of his speciality? Okay, but it seems that you think John McClain does? Give me a break! All that says is that McClain is obviously on target with his audience.

How much input do you think Capers had in the decision to get Boselli, Ryan Young, McKinney, Wade, draft: pitts, wand, weary... go after Pace, Shelton, Riley. Was Casserly saying "no, I really don't want Boselli. I don't think he'll ever be healthy. Please Dom don't make me take him"... or, "Ryan Young's going to have injury problems and never produce for us, Dom. Why can't you see that and let me take someone else?"
I know Dom was really eager to sign McKinney also but Casserly fought him on that to. Dom scouted Weary and said let's spend a pick on this guy, I can tell he's go to be a great interior lineman.

dalemurphy
05-27-2005, 12:34 PM
Pardon me, but I find this whole attempt to criticize Capers for the problems of the OL very distasteful. First of all, the team has only been around for 3 years. The reason why Carr has been sacked more in three years than anyone else isn't because the line is horrible (well, it was horrible in 2002). It's because Carr has been playing behind a mediocre to bad line and is so damn tough and not prone to injury that he's started all but 3 games during that span.

This organization made a concerted effort to build a good OL from the beginning. Unfortunately, Bosselli and Ryan Young did not work out and to a lesser extent, McKinney hasn't either. For the first two drafts, the organization spent almost all their first day picks on the offensive side of the ball. There is no evidence for this supposed bias that Capers has towards defense. Unfortunately the veterans that the organization (CASSERLY) brought in have greatly disappointed (Bosselli, Young, McKinney, Weigert, Wade). Some of the draft picks have disappointed to this point (Weary, MBrown)... None of this is the fault of Dom Capers!!!

Let's see what the coaching staff is able to do with the development of this line this season and the impact of handling Palmer better will have on the line, the offense, and the season.

Someone list the mistakes Capers has made in regards to the OL, IBAR?!

Vinny
05-27-2005, 01:38 PM
The chicken little brigade is unreal this year. We are a team that was 7-9 in their 3rd season ever!!! The sky is not falling people. We have a legit playoff shot this season. Isn't that what we all wanted when we started this thing in 2002? I don't grasp all the complaining. It's pretty incredible if you ask me....its like we are coming off a 2-14 year. I see fans of other .500 teams across the NFL and most of them are excited about their next year while we just complain over and over and over.

Hervoyel
05-27-2005, 01:54 PM
I see fans of other .500 teams across the NFL and most of them are excited about their next year while we just complain over and over and over.

Yes of course Vinny but see that's just it. We aren't a .500 team. We're one win shy of being a .500 team and THAT is why

Caper's must go
Capers is a fool
Capers can't coach offense
Casserly can't pick talent so Capers has nothing to work with
Casserly CAN pick talent but Capers doesn't know what to do with it
Palmer MUST GO!
Fangio MUST GO!
Toro MUST GO!
Palmer and Fangio MUST GO see Toro and get some coaching lessons!
The Texans are doing nothing to fix the offensive line
The Texans are trying to fix the offensive line but it won't work
and on, and on, and on.

It's really all about the .500 record. If the Texans had won against Cleveland (or in any of the other close losses they had last year) then the Texans would be .500 and I bet 40% of this mess wouldn't be here. The hardcore gloomers would still be doing their thing but the rest of the posters wouldn't be such a fertile audience. One more win and this off season would have been a little more fun (And we still could have drafted TJ :) )

nunusguy
05-27-2005, 02:13 PM
It's really all about the .500 record. If the Texans had won against Cleveland
Speaking for myself, its not about missing the .500 mark by one win near as much as it's about the loss, and a really embarrasing loss in our season and
home final against the Browns. We were headed in the right direction at the end of the year with two impressive road wins - in really bad weather in Chicago and then what was one of our most imoressive, if not the most impressaive win of the year at Jacksonsonville. And then the season final in
Reliant. That was our last memory to take into this offseason. To me 7-9
and missing .500 by a single win isn't the problem , its the last game of the year against the Browns and the manner in which we lost, etc.

wrestler4life
05-27-2005, 02:31 PM
This organization made a concerted effort to build a good OL from the beginning. Unfortunately, Bosselli and Ryan Young did not work out and to a lesser extent, McKinney hasn't either. For the first two drafts, the organization spent almost all their first day picks on the offensive side of the ball. There is no evidence for this supposed bias that Capers has towards defense. Unfortunately the veterans that the organization (CASSERLY) brought in have greatly disappointed (Bosselli, Young, McKinney, Weigert, Wade). Some of the draft picks have disappointed to this point (Weary, MBrown)... None of this is the fault of Dom Capers!!!




I think, then, that we need to do a better job scouting out our potential linemen. Taking our time and remaining patient is going to work out for us.