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Carr Bombed
08-18-2012, 10:39 PM
There is no longer any reason why he should be the #2 WR any more.

Start Jean outside opposite Andre and make Keshawn the guy that you move in and out of the slot.

michaelm
08-18-2012, 10:56 PM
Not going to happen. Kubes won't have a rookie and guy coming off the practice squad at WR2 and WR3.
Walter is an above average downfield blocker, and knows where he is supposed to be on any given play.

TEXANRED
08-18-2012, 11:04 PM
There is no longer any reason why he should be the #2 WR any more.

Start Jean outside opposite Andre and make Keshawn the guy that you move in and out of the slot.

I was thinking Martin #2, Jean #3, and Walter #4.

Has Posey even caught a pass yet?

SmoochyTX
08-18-2012, 11:05 PM
Not going to happen. Kubes won't have a rookie and guy coming off the practice squad at WR2 and WR3.
Walter is an above average downfield blocker, and knows where he is supposed to be on any given play.

This.

Rey
08-18-2012, 11:09 PM
There is no longer any reason why he should be the #2 WR any more.

Start Jean outside opposite Andre and make Keshawn the guy that you move in and out of the slot.

I'm starting to lean that way....

A lot if people acting like there is no way this'll happen and I just disagree. A lot of people were shocked when Demeco was traded and felt like that wouldn't happen either.

I don't know if they start the season ahead of Walter, but if they keep this up they'll definitely eat into his snaps.

TdotTexas2Step
08-18-2012, 11:11 PM
Kevin Walter will always have a moment in Texans history with his game winning TD to seal our first AFC division title.

But if if Jean and Martin can produce and show they know where to be, then I don't see why we can't usher in the next era of Texan receivers.

eriadoc
08-18-2012, 11:48 PM
FWIW, Walter had his man beat for a TD in the end zone, but Schaub threw it too high on what was I think his only real incompletion.

Norg
08-19-2012, 12:00 AM
i see it like this

#1 AJ

#2 Posey/KW

#3 SLot Martin

#4 Jean

#6 Kick returner Holiday


has u can see we have to many good WR's kinda a good problem but

has i see it right now and even tho it sucks If it was me i would have to Cut KW and Holiday

eriadoc
08-19-2012, 12:04 AM
i see it like this

#1 AJ

#2 Posey/KW

#3 SLot Martin

#4 Jean

#6 Kick returner Holiday

Personally, I want to see Jean take over Walter's spot, and I added the Posey pick to my mental list of WTF moments that Smithiak has committed.

That said, If Matt throws a catchable ball in the first quarter to Walter in the end zone, I suspect tonight's conversation might have a slightly different tone to it.

Carr Bombed
08-19-2012, 12:26 AM
Not going to happen. Kubes won't have a rookie and guy coming off the practice squad at WR2 and WR3.
Walter is an above average downfield blocker, and knows where he is supposed to be on any given play.

Im tired of hearing about Kevin Walter's run blocking.. if this is the case let's just line a FB out wide.

His primary job is to catch footballs and make plays... so how many catches does he have this preseason? Fact is, he's being out played by two young bucks.. young bucks who are much better playmakers and much more explosive. Also from what I've seen so far, it looks like they know where to be as well.. it's not like they need a map in order to line up.

This offense needs more players who can score from anywhere on the field. Where we don't have to rely on stringing together a bunch of plays. Walter is not that guy.

PapaL
08-19-2012, 12:28 AM
Too many good WRs?!?

We have one good WR (when healthy) Johnson.

One pretty good, KW.

And a bunch of unproven young guys. Let's see how they react when the bullets are real and the D actually game plans.

thunderkyss
08-19-2012, 12:31 AM
Personally, I want to see Jean take over Walter's spot, and I added the Posey pick to my mental list of WTF moments that Smithiak has committed.

That said, If Matt throws a catchable ball in the first quarter to Walter in the end zone, I suspect tonight's conversation might have a slightly different tone to it.

I've seen Walter catch a TD or two since he's been here. Catching one in the preseason wouldn't really change my opinion of him. He doesn't have the blazing speed to make me think he's going to behind too many defenses. I don't see him pulling away from anyone, breaking any ankles..... or changing the game.

Walter is a #3 in this league.

That said, I haven't seen enough of the kids to suggest they should supplant him. But I am liking what I've seen so far.
Posey was a third round pick, he might be the best of the bunch, but it may take time before he catches on. Keyshawn.... a lower pick than Posey seems like he was born for this. That's special, & rare. LeSean, if he hadn't got hurt last year, I think Jacoby wouldn't have made the team last season.....

Rey
08-19-2012, 12:33 AM
Tbh I think kw is a good wr, I just think we can do better at his position. He'd make excellent depth though.

Carr Bombed
08-19-2012, 12:43 AM
That said, If Matt throws a catchable ball in the first quarter to Walter in the end zone, I suspect tonight's conversation might have a slightly different tone to it.

For me it wouldn't be.. I'm sure if Jean would've ran the same route on the same play he would've been available to over throw as well. You see it's not about one random catch or even one random TD reception.. it's about the amount of targets or should I say the amount of times that you're targeted. It sure is funny how Jean and Martin get multiple passes thrown their way regardless who is the QB, but all Walter will get is his one lone token pass... maybe. That right there tells me he does not get open/seperation on a consistent basis.

I used to defend Walter with all the "but he's a good run blocker" crap as well, but after last season I was done with him. With Andre down and with his only real competition being a bipoler Jones the guy still couldn't get targeted consistently.. and I don't think it had anything to do with Schaub or T.J. After that it became deafening how greatly we needed to upgrade the #2 WR position.

Thorn
08-19-2012, 06:28 AM
Kevin Walter isn't going to be benched, that's not happening. But, the fact this thread even exists means we believe our WR situation isn't as dire as we thought. And that's a very good thing.

TEXANRED
08-19-2012, 07:08 AM
i see it like this

#1 AJ

#2 Posey/KW

#3 SLot Martin

#4 Jean

#6 Kick returner Holiday


has u can see we have to many good WR's kinda a good problem but

has i see it right now and even tho it sucks If it was me i would have to Cut KW and Holiday
I disagree with you on this one. What has Posey done to earn the #2 spot? IMO its a 3 way battle for the second spot between Martin, Jean, and Walter. Posey has played himself onto the practice squad cus there is no way I am cutting Holliday, an actual productive player, in favor of Posey. I dont care where Posey was drafted.

rmartin65
08-19-2012, 07:09 AM
Nah, you keep him for this season.

He is proven, knows the system, run blocks well, and has sticky hands. He wont put up awesome stats, but he has a role.

Now, his playing time could be reduced based on the situation on the field.

False Start
08-19-2012, 07:10 AM
Kevin Walter isn't going to be benched, that's not happening. But, the fact this thread even exists means we believe our WR situation isn't as dire as we thought. And that's a very good thing.

Yep. Kubiak likes Walter too much. According to him Kevin Walter will one day cure world hunger, while blocking the looters.

mariowillshine15
08-19-2012, 07:15 AM
I disagree with you on this one. What has Posey done to earn the #2 spot? IMO its a 3 way battle for the second spot between Martin, Jean, and Walter. Posey has played himself onto the practice squad cus there is no way I am cutting Holliday, an actual productive player, in favor of Posey. I dont care where Posey was drafted.

Posey needs more time. He was out all last year.

There were good reports coming out of training camp about him and I would like to see what he could do with the 1st team or at least the 2nd team.

Martin and Jean have earned their reps and have been great I would just like to see Posey playing with a more experienced QB. Even if they just throw it to him deep a few times to see what he can do.

TEXANRED
08-19-2012, 07:23 AM
Posey needs more time. He was out all last year.

There were good reports coming out of training camp about him and I would like to see what he could do with the 1st team or at least the 2nd team.

Martin and Jean have earned their reps and have been great I would just like to see Posey playing with a more experienced QB. Even if they just throw it to him deep a few times to see what he can do.

Martin and Jean beat out Posey for playing time with the first teamers.

Posey sitting out all of last year only reinforces the fact the he needs to go to the practice squad. I can't think of any productive player I would cut just so I can give a spot to Posey. He can not make plays sitting at home watching the game.

Actually I expect him to have some sort of odd injury that will get him IR'd the last week of preseason.

pirbroke
08-19-2012, 07:34 AM
Kevin makes 2 mil for 2012 I think, I say we drop him for that little extra money to help resign Barwin long term.

ObsiWan
08-19-2012, 08:10 AM
Too many good WRs?!?

We have one good WR (when healthy) Johnson.

One pretty good, KW.

And a bunch of unproven young guys. Let's see how they react when the bullets are real and the D actually game plans.

Good point.
Lots of guys have looked good in preseason only to fade into obscurity. Let's see what happens when the games count. Might be a tad early to make this call...

Rey
08-19-2012, 08:22 AM
Kevin Walter isn't going to be benched, that's not happening.

That's the same stance people took when talking about jacoby and Demeco this past off season.

I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the young guys chip away at his playing time or fully supplant him if they show consistency.

But honestly, like I said Walter is not a bad wr. Really I'd like to see Aj get bit more rest than he has in the past. Jean, Walter and Martin should be a nice combo for a few plays/gm.

kingh99
08-19-2012, 08:39 AM
It's fairly obvious Posey's headed to the practice squad. He's not happening this year. In fact, he may be done before he got started. Not sure his psyche can take being sent off a team two years running. Martin and Jean are ready to move into the starting rotation. This means Walters is moving down the chart to become a valuable experienced back up. He's there in case one of the other two stumble or get hurt.

Rey
08-19-2012, 08:42 AM
It's fairly obvious Posey's headed to the practice squad. He's not happening this year. In fact, he may be done before he got started. Not sure his psyche can take being sent off a team two years running. Martin and Jean are ready to move into the starting rotation. This means Walters is moving down the chart to become a valuable experienced back up. He's there in case one of the other two stumble or get hurt.

I'd be shocked if kubiak cut posey. That would be new.

The Medic01
08-19-2012, 08:43 AM
It's fairly obvious Posey's headed to the practice squad. He's not happening this year. In fact, he may be done before he got started. Not sure his psyche can take being sent off a team two years running. Martin and Jean are ready to move into the starting rotation. This means Walters is moving down the chart to become a valuable experienced back up. He's there in case one of the other two stumble or get hurt.

Guys he hasn't even had a chance. Give him a chance. Besides if he was sent to PS he would definitely be snatched up within 48 hours.

Rey
08-19-2012, 08:46 AM
Guys he hasn't even had a chance. Give him a chance. Besides if he was sent to PS he would definitely be snatched up within 48 hours.

I doubt he'd make it to the ps. He'd probably be claimed off waivers.

Lucky
08-19-2012, 08:56 AM
Kevin makes 2 mil for 2012 I think, I say we drop him for that little extra money to help resign Barwin long term.
Cutting Walter in 2012 would not help a new Barwin contract in 2013.

Walter will make this team, though Jean will cut into his playing time. I'd like to see Jean make through a preseason before anointing him a starter.

Corrosion
08-19-2012, 08:57 AM
FWIW, Walter had his man beat for a TD in the end zone, but Schaub threw it too high on what was I think his only real incompletion.

Another play Walter made .... that wasnt completed was the OD drop , it was Walters route that created the window of opportunity for that pass to be thrown .... OD has to catch that ball.


The devil is in the details ....


I do agree that if Martin & Jean continue their solid play , they eat into Walters snaps and possibly make him expendable next season.

kingh99
08-19-2012, 08:57 AM
Then the draft room guys missed on the Posey pick. He doesn't deserve a roster spot if it means someone like Holliday get's cut. And if not Holliday, then who? Kevin Walters? It would have to be one of those two, wouldn't it? If they keep 5 receivers/returners:

Johnson
Martin
Jean
Holliday
Walters/Posey

or
Walters
Holliday/Posey

They don't keep 6 do they? I guess they could. Should be interesting.

Rey
08-19-2012, 08:59 AM
Then the draft room guys missed on the Posey pick. He doesn't deserve a roster spot if it means someone like Holliday get's cut. And if not Holliday, then who? Kevin Walters? It would have to be one of those two, wouldn't it? If they keep 5 receivers/returners:

Johnson
Martin
Jean
Holliday
Walters/Posey

or
Walters
Holliday/Posey

They don't keep 6 do they? I guess they could. Should be interesting.

They will probably keep 6 wr's.

GuerillaBlack
08-19-2012, 09:42 AM
Martin and Jean beat out Posey for playing time with the first teamers.

Posey sitting out all of last year only reinforces the fact the he needs to go to the practice squad. I can't think of any productive player I would cut just so I can give a spot to Posey. He can not make plays sitting at home watching the game.

Actually I expect him to have some sort of odd injury that will get him IR'd the last week of preseason.

A third round draft pick is not going to the practice squad.

eriadoc
08-19-2012, 10:07 AM
Another play Walter made .... that wasnt completed was the OD drop , it was Walters route that created the window of opportunity for that pass to be thrown .... OD has to catch that ball.


The devil is in the details ....

Yeah, that's the thing. To the people who say Walter isn't getting open and isn't creating separation and therefore isn't getting targeted, I say .... maybe. But I think it's just as likely that he's being deliberately used in a way to get other players open. Kubiak draws up these complex routes and he needs someone he trusts to do certain aspects of the job. Now, I don't know that to be true any more than some of the people know Walter sucks at getting open, but I'm honest enough to consider the possibility. That's why I am anxiously awaiting the All-22 film to be broken down by some people on this board this year, now that it'll finally be available.

So I am in a wait and see mode. The knee jerk reaction is to look at the stats and think Walter has to go, but I suspect Kubiak knows full well what Walter has done and keeps him out there for that express reason.

Hervoyel
08-19-2012, 10:12 AM
Posey is a project. Think Dorin Dickerson with a far better chance of success in that he's not making a position change. Posey pays off hopefully later in the year. If not then next year he'll be expected to start producing. He's a year out of competitive football for intents and purposes. He's going to take time and the Texans know it.

Now having said that you can make a really good case for not throwing 3rd round picks at projects or reclamation projects but that's what the Texans did.

beerlover
08-19-2012, 10:15 AM
Posey is a project. Think Dorin Dickerson with a far better chance of success in that he's not making a position change. Posey pays off hopefully later in the year. If not then next year he'll be expected to start producing. He's a year out of competitive football for intents and purposes. He's going to take time and the Texans know it.

Now having said that you can make a really good case for not throwing 3rd round picks at projects or reclamation projects but that's what the Texans did.

you can say the same thing about Brooks. Texans are betting on upside, both should succeed in time based on quality of coaching & system that is now proven for the first time in team history. I have no problem with either :specnatz:

Rey
08-19-2012, 10:19 AM
Yeah, that's the thing. To the people who say Walter isn't getting open and isn't creating separation and therefore isn't getting targeted, I say .... maybe. But I think it's just as likely that he's being deliberately used in a way to get other players open.

I doubt that.

Whats more effective for creating opportunities for other receivers?

A guy that shows he is a constant threat and pulls coverage no matter where he goes?

Or a guy that rarely catches passes?

Give me the guy that is actually a consistent threat to catch passed.

Other guys run routes to get guys open too, but since kw hardly does anything else folks just focus on his blocking and his "decoy ability".

I didn't hear much about how great a decoy od was last year when he cleared out that room for Walter to make the game winning catch against cincy.

You know why?

Because OD actually catches passes so you don't have to cling to some small thing he does as justification for him starting.

Kw was given his contract when he was catching passes. When he stopped doing that as effectively he was asked to take a pay cut.

The guy is a good wr, but all this blocking and decoying he does is not nearly as significant as a wr that can consistently make plays catching the ball.

Hervoyel
08-19-2012, 10:26 AM
you can say the same thing about Brooks. Texans are betting on upside, both should succeed in time based on quality of coaching & system that is now proven for the first time in team history. I have no problem with either :specnatz:

Me either. I'm just saying that people all worried about Posey taking a roster spot from Holliday or getting plucked away from us while on his way to our practice squad are worrying about something that's not going to happen. We'll keep 6 I think. AJ & Walter are fixtures, Martin and Jean have played their way onto the team, Holliday is finally ready for the game at this level, and Posey is Smithiak's long-term project.

They'll find a way to keep 6.

Lucky
08-19-2012, 10:29 AM
Posey sitting out all of last year only reinforces the fact the he needs to go to the practice squad.

Actually I expect him to have some sort of odd injury that will get him IR'd the last week of preseason.
IR Posey, and that's 2 years with very little football. Because players on IR cannot practice with the team.

eriadoc
08-19-2012, 10:29 AM
I doubt that.

Fair enough. As I alluded to above, I'm 50/50 on the idea. We'll see on the All-22, won't we?

Hottoddie
08-19-2012, 11:43 AM
IR Posey, and that's 2 years with very little football. Because players on IR cannot practice with the team.

I did not realize that. I too was thinking they could stash Posey on the IR. Well, that changes everything & gives more weight to what Spencer was saying during the game last night about Holliday complicating the WR position.

For those that missed his comment, he suggested that the Texans may reduce the number of RB's it carries. We might have to stash Forsett, Grimes & Meggett on the PS. Is Forsett still eligible for the PS?

In any event, with Kubiak's respect for his veterans & the young guns lack of experience, I see Walter being listed as the starter & Jean/Martin coming in shortly after the first play or two. I also see Walter being inserted in when we go into a run the clock out running game due to his blocking skills.

Assuming the 3 young guns develop into bonafide starters this year, I can see the Texans letting KW walk next year.

Also, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Schaub gone after this year.

76Texan
08-19-2012, 11:46 AM
Fair enough. As I alluded to above, I'm 50/50 on the idea. We'll see on the All-22, won't we?

When you subscribe to NFL Rewind, you get all the games from last year, too.
With the all-22 view and one end zone view on top of the normal broadcast view.

I did.
And I've seen Walter get open a pretty fair number of time but the QB didn't look his way (he was not the first read). Sometimes the first read was not open but the QBs forced the ball there while Walter was open. To be fair, sometimes the QBs didn't have enough time to go to the second read.

Yes, Walter did run his good shares of deep routes that pull the safety over such that the QB would go to the underneath receiver.

And yes, Walter was used to block a lot.
Even on passing plays, many times they called on him to block the back side DE or OLB on play action fake.
After he threw the cut block he would get up and started his route.
By then, the QB already found a target.

I remember for sure though, that one year (not last year), I had seen Walter got a catch out of that situation.

Walter is not going anywhere until another guy shows he can do all those things.

kingh99
08-19-2012, 11:48 AM
They will probably keep 6 wr's.

From Kubiak's presser:
“He (Martin) made a nice play, I think third play of the game we hit him. I know he had one more catch, I know for sure, I’m not sure how many he had. He’s had a really good camp. I put him in a tough situation this week. I switched him from ‘X’ to ‘Z’, so I put a lot of pressure on him. He and (WR) Lestar (Jean) are going to have to know both spots and (WR DeVier) Posey, on gameday because you only suit four, sometimes five guys.

They'll keep Posey because they can't afford to look bad on the draft. Posey's lucky he got taken so high. We'll probably be singing his praises a year from now if the coaches bring him along like they seem to be able to do with slow developing guys.

Bulls on Parade
08-19-2012, 11:52 AM
I would hate to think we wasted a third-round pick on DeVier Posey but the guy has not shown me anything at all. I have to watch old videos from 2009 just to see him looking like a legitimate prospect. I sure hope this man is hungry and ready to fight for a roster spot. He has two more pre-season games left. The Saints have a bad secondary so I expect him to make one or two plays on Saturday Night at the Superdome.

Porky
08-19-2012, 12:02 PM
I'm supposed to trust the analysis of fans that can't seem to get a player's last name correct after a half dozen years? :kitten:

My take is Walter definitely starts the year at #2. Not 100% sure he will finish there, but to start I have nearly zero doubt in my mind about that.

The real fight right now is between Martin and Jean for #3. My take is they end up splitting the #3 spot situationally (down,distance, play call, field position, etc) - as you have two completely different cats there physically. If one is too eventually beat out Walter, I'm thinking it's Jean - and it's not based on talent but on size, stature, weight - let's see if the guy can block. Until he can block well, it's Walter's job.

Posey makes the team as the #5 guy who slowly works into the rotation as he continues to grow in a pro WR, or takes a heavier load should an injury occur.

Holliday is #6, takes all the returns and works in on offense with a few trick plays, and maybe a screen or two over the year.

So this is the final roster at WR:

#1 - AJ
#2 - Walter
#3 - Jean
#4 - Martin
#5 - Posey
#6 - Holliday

Goldensilence
08-19-2012, 12:18 PM
At this point KW is a larger version of David Anderson; can't get separation consistently and cannot make plays down field. He's probably better relegated to being a slot WR at this point where he can use his size to move the chains.

I think one thing is pretty clear; he doesn't belong outside at #2 and he's going to start losing PT to guys who are producing.


I Think the Texans brass wanted to keep him around for all the tag lines that people here use: leadership, RB, know system, ad naseum and because they were not sold on the young WRs (rightly so). However, the paycut he took seems to have a pretty clear message that he wasn't earning his keep on the field. I wonder had he refused the paycut if he would've been cut outright.

I think he stays this season, but next year he's likely going to get cut.

Posey looks like he was a reach and I think a lot of people's premonitions about it are being confirmed as the PS goes on. For better or worse barring not showing up at all, he's going to have a spot guaranteed because of where he was drafted.

rmartin65
08-19-2012, 12:21 PM
I'm supposed to trust the analysis of fans that can't seem to get a player's last name correct after a half dozen years? :kitten:

My take is Walter definitely starts the year at #2. Not 100% sure he will finish there, but to start I have nearly zero doubt in my mind about that.

The real fight right now is between Martin and Jean for #3. My take is they end up splitting the #3 spot situationally (down,distance, play call, field position, etc) - as you have two completely different cats there physically. If one is too eventually beat out Walter, I'm thinking it's Jean - and it's not based on talent but on size, stature, weight - let's see if the guy can block. Until he can block well, it's Walter's job.

Posey makes the team as the #5 guy who slowly works into the rotation as he continues to grow in a pro WR, or takes a heavier load should an injury occur.

Holliday is #6, takes all the returns and works in on offense with a few trick plays, and maybe a screen or two over the year.

So this is the final roster at WR:

#1 - AJ
#2 - Walter
#3 - Jean
#4 - Martin
#5 - Posey
#6 - Holliday

I think this post, from the first word to the last, is 100% correct. Rep.

burro
08-19-2012, 12:27 PM
I doubt that.

Whats more effective for creating opportunities for other receivers?

A guy that shows he is a constant threat and pulls coverage no matter where he goes?

Or a guy that rarely catches passes?

Give me the guy that is actually a consistent threat to catch passed.

Other guys run routes to get guys open too, but since kw hardly does anything else folks just focus on his blocking and his "decoy ability".

I didn't hear much about how great a decoy od was last year when he cleared out that room for Walter to make the game winning catch against cincy.

You know why?

Because OD actually catches passes so you don't have to cling to some small thing he does as justification for him starting.

Kw was given his contract when he was catching passes. When he stopped doing that as effectively he was asked to take a pay cut.

The guy is a good wr, but all this blocking and decoying he does is not nearly as significant as a wr that can consistently make plays catching the ball.

This. Walter is steady and dependable, but he's not a playmaker and certainly not someone that opposing DCs put a lot of emphasis on when game planning. I would much rather have a big play threat opposite Andre, who has way more "decoy" potential than Walter if a legit playmaker is in the #2 position.

Playoffs
08-19-2012, 12:35 PM
I would hate to think we wasted a third-round pick on DeVier Posey...
Pretend Keyshawn Martin was out 3rd round pick and Posey was our late 4th round pick. Doesn't look that bad, now. :kitten:

Either way, we got what we needed which is a borderline starter playmaker WR and a guy (LeStar) with some size behind AJ. Posey is a project, at this point, like Jean was. Let's hope we don't need him in 2012.

TEXANRED
08-19-2012, 12:42 PM
A third round draft pick is not going to the practice squad.

Said Charles Hill

The Medic01
08-19-2012, 12:50 PM
Exactly. Lets examine why some want to keep Walter.

1. He can block. Well I saw KeyMart make a great downfield block Andre can definitely block and I honestly do not know about Jean.

2. He is a decoy. Well umm couldn't I just run a little slant route and they would have to cover me because I can actually catch if I am wide open. If I can do it I think KeyMart and Jean can as well.

3. He can move the chains on third down. I saw Jean do it twice Andre can do it very cnsistantly as can Foster and Daniels.

There is just nothing he does that our other offensive weapons can.

The Medic01
08-19-2012, 12:51 PM
Edit I meant can't on that last word.

76Texan
08-19-2012, 01:07 PM
Walter was trpled-covered on the TD to Jean.
The LB 54 and the both safeties formed a triangle around him.

He was open in the end zone just before that but Schaub had one of his rare miss in the game right there.

eriadoc
08-19-2012, 03:08 PM
Walter was trpled-covered on the TD to Jean.

After reading the fan analysis on this site, I cannot imagine why any team would even cover Walter, much less triple cover him.

rush2112mn
08-19-2012, 03:30 PM
I think one either Jean or Martin are pushing Walters on that 2nd spot. I dont see what is happening at training camp...the coaches are.....but from what I have seen during games.....I think it is up for grabs.......Any of the 3 have a shot at it......I want to see what happens at New Orleans next week......

Corrosion
08-19-2012, 03:34 PM
Walter was trpled-covered on the TD to Jean.
The LB 54 and the both safeties formed a triangle around him.

He was open in the end zone just before that but Schaub had one of his rare miss in the game right there.

After reading the fan analysis on this site, I cannot imagine why any team would even cover Walter, much less triple cover him.

:corrosion:

Cjeremy635
08-19-2012, 05:51 PM
Exactly. Lets examine why some want to keep Walter.

1. He can block. Well I saw KeyMart make a great downfield block Andre can definitely block and I honestly do not know about Jean.

2. He is a decoy. Well umm couldn't I just run a little slant route and they would have to cover me because I can actually catch if I am wide open. If I can do it I think KeyMart and Jean can as well.

3. He can move the chains on third down. I saw Jean do it twice Andre can do it very cnsistantly as can Foster and Daniels.

There is just nothing he does that our other offensive weapons can.

He caught the TD that put us into the playoffs for the 1st time in franchise history. That is something that no other receiver on the roster has done. Would AJ make that catch? 99% sure, but AJ was injured.

You're banking on a healthy AJ for an entire season. My gut tells me that may not be the case given his injury history over the last couple of seasons. So, you'd like to go into the season with 1 veteran receiver that has a good chance of getting injured? I don't think that's a smart call at all.

Quick II Draw
08-19-2012, 06:10 PM
He caught the TD that put us into the playoffs for the 1st time in franchise history. That is something that no other receiver on the roster has done. Would AJ make that catch? 99% sure, but AJ was injured.

You're banking on a healthy AJ for an entire season. My gut tells me that may not be the case given his injury history over the last couple of seasons. So, you'd like to go into the season with 1 veteran receiver that has a good chance of getting injured? I don't think that's a smart call at all.

The first paragraph is total nonsensical homerism. He should be a starter (or on the team) because...he caught an important pass in the team's history? Seriously? First of all, it wasn't even a particularly challenging catch. Even if it was, who cares? David Tyree was unceremoniously gone after his SUPER BOWL catch.

But yes, KW should make the final roster and should start if he's still the best WR2 or WR3. Behind him and AJ is nothing but practice squad players and rookies.

Texecutioner
08-19-2012, 06:53 PM
There is no longer any reason why he should be the #2 WR any more.

Start Jean outside opposite Andre and make Keshawn the guy that you move in and out of the slot.

I don't think that Walter is that good in general. Never really have, but Jean has done nothing in the NFL yet. Having a strong pre season game is not a reason to make him an automatic starter. Let's see him wrecking shop in regular season and then we'll talk. Jacoby Jones looked like the 2nd coming of Desean Jackson when he played in pre season.

Good point.
Lots of guys have looked good in preseason only to fade into obscurity. Let's see what happens when the games count. Might be a tad early to make this call...


Walter's presence is not one that does a thing to worry opposing defensive coordinators. I just laugh at the notion that Jean is this star in the making after one game where he looked great in the pre season. Pre season warriors appear on teams every year. Hopefully Jean can become a regular season warrior, but we'll wait and see what happens, before letting him take people's positions after one pre season game.

drs23
08-19-2012, 08:15 PM
I don't think that Walter is that good in general. Never really have, but Jean has done nothing in the NFL yet. Having a strong pre season game is not a reason to make him an automatic starter. Let's see him wrecking shop in regular season and then we'll talk. Jacoby Jones looked like the 2nd coming of Desean Jackson when he played in pre season.




Walter's presence is not one that does a thing to worry opposing defensive coordinators. I just laugh at the notion that Jean is this star in the making after one game where he looked great in the pre season. Pre season warriors appear on teams every year. Hopefully Jean can become a regular season warrior, but we'll wait and see what happens, before letting him take people's positions after one pre season game.

Not to pick nits but...it's been two PS games now. Three if you count last year. He had two for fifty in the first game. One where he was defended pretty well. In two games he's had six receptions for 92 yards and averaged over 15 yards a catch. That's not too shabby.

Granted, it's only PS but that's what it's for. Evaluation. So far it seems as the folks that do the evaluating like what they see.

I, much like you and every other fan, hope to see Jean carry this production into the season. If he does then we can forget the Jacoby Jones comparisons. If not then the comparisons will have been valid.

Personally I think we're watching a receiver come into his own. On top of that he seems to be somewhat humble and I'll take that over Diva any day. (That's just my observation and not relevant to your post)

ObsiWan
08-19-2012, 08:59 PM
I'm supposed to trust the analysis of fans that can't seem to get a player's last name correct after a half dozen years? :kitten:

My take is Walter definitely starts the year at #2. Not 100% sure he will finish there, but to start I have nearly zero doubt in my mind about that.

The real fight right now is between Martin and Jean for #3. My take is they end up splitting the #3 spot situationally (down,distance, play call, field position, etc) - as you have two completely different cats there physically. If one is too eventually beat out Walter, I'm thinking it's Jean - and it's not based on talent but on size, stature, weight - let's see if the guy can block. Until he can block well, it's Walter's job.

Posey makes the team as the #5 guy who slowly works into the rotation as he continues to grow in a pro WR, or takes a heavier load should an injury occur.

Holliday is #6, takes all the returns and works in on offense with a few trick plays, and maybe a screen or two over the year.

So this is the final roster at WR:

#1 - AJ
#2 - Walter
#3 - Jean
#4 - Martin
#5 - Posey
#6 - Holliday

Agree completely...
At least at time point in time, the odd man out isn't Walter. It's Bryant.
:texans:

Texecutioner
08-19-2012, 09:00 PM
Not to pick nits but...it's been two PS games now. Three if you count last year. He had two for fifty in the first game. One where he was defended pretty well. In two games he's had six receptions for 92 yards and averaged over 15 yards a catch. That's not too shabby.

Granted, it's only PS but that's what it's for. Evaluation. So far it seems as the folks that do the evaluating like what they see.

I, much like you and every other fan, hope to see Jean carry this production into the season. If he does then we can forget the Jacoby Jones comparisons. If not then the comparisons will have been valid.

Personally I think we're watching a receiver come into his own. On top of that he seems to be somewhat humble and I'll take that over Diva any day. (That's just my observation and not relevant to your post)

Well if you're going to mention a game from last season, then that would make my point more, but I don't want that to be the case. I liked what I saw, but I just want to see it in the regular season. It isn't just about Jacoby. Teams all around the league have guys like this who do great, but then disappear. I like what I'm seeing though.

On another note, I'm really liking what I'm seeing out of Schaub so far. He looks ready and as good as ever.

eriadoc
08-19-2012, 09:23 PM
walter's presence is not one that does a thing to worry opposing defensive coordinators.

walter was trpled-covered on the td to jean.

lol

Corrosion
08-19-2012, 09:24 PM
lol

This is the NFL ... stats are everything , the details dont matter. :spin:

Texecutioner
08-19-2012, 09:31 PM
lol

I don't know whether Walter was triple covered or not on that play, but if he was it's because it was a pre season game if anything. If you're going to sit here and act like that is evidence of Walter commanding attention from defenses, well that's a funny one considering we're talking about a guy that couldn't even muster up over 500 yards last season.

The only real attribute you guys clamor on to as far as Walter goes year after year is his amazing blocking. I don't think that is some sort of reason why teams would worry about Walter's play making abilities unless you're going to tell me that Walter is going to mow down half the defense like he's Bobby Bushay or something.


This is the NFL ... stats are everything , the details dont matter. :spin:

Somehow I missed the fact that Kevin Walter is as effective as this guy as a blocker.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e220/nickms/thewaterboy.jpg

Goldensilence
08-19-2012, 09:34 PM
He caught the TD that put us into the playoffs for the 1st time in franchise history. That is something that no other receiver on the roster has done. Would AJ make that catch? 99% sure, but AJ was injured.

You're banking on a healthy AJ for an entire season. My gut tells me that may not be the case given his injury history over the last couple of seasons. So, you'd like to go into the season with 1 veteran receiver that has a good chance of getting injured? I don't think that's a smart call at all.

:/ Maybe we shouldn't have ever let Carr go cause he did throw a touchdown in our first franchise win ever or maybe Billy Miller because he caught that TD. In fact, perhaps we shouldn't have cut whomever made the first INT on defense too.

I'm don't think many people here are advocating a PS cut of Walter, but I don't see how anyone can make a real argument against his playing time and his status as #2 getting severely cut into over the season.

I don't think it has as much to do with Jean or Martin doing well in preseason as much as the lack of production over the past two seasons when the offense has needed him to step up. I mean is there another #2 in the league that has steadily disappeared like KW has?

thunderkyss
08-19-2012, 09:35 PM
I agree with Thorn...... until these rooks (& LeStar) take a 16 game assWhup'n & come back looking for more, Walter starts & rightly so. If the coaches decide they are ready sooner than that, so be it. If they end up starting because of injury, so be it.

But damn they (Martin especially) look good.

eriadoc
08-19-2012, 09:40 PM
I don't know whether Walter was triple covered or not on that play, but if he was it's because it was a pre season game if anything.

Walter ends up double covered quite a lot in regular season games, actually. I've seen it. It almost makes no sense, until you think about it. I'm not claiming he scares DCs into scheming for him, but I think it comes down to the fact that Kubiak draws up some incredible plays. And the guy he trusts to mind-f%@k the secondary is Walter. I have no doubt that once one of these young guys earns that trust from Kubiak, then we'll have a better playmaker on the field in the WR2 spot. Until then, Walter's going to continue doing exactly what Kubiak asks of him and he's going to continue to make people here frustrated. It's sort of comical, really.

The only real attribute you guys clamor on to ...

Careful with the friendly fire there, Tex. Read my first post. I want to see Jean in that spot. I just think that it's not as simple as the anti-Walter crowd wants to make it. I would much rather have a playmaker WR out there, but it's obvious that we don't know WTF we're talking about if Kubiak keeps trusting him with the job. For as many opportunities that Kubiak gave JJ, for instance, he never gave those opportunities at the expense of Walter. That says something.

The Pencil Neck
08-19-2012, 09:41 PM
KW saw the writing on the wall when he took the pay cut to stay here. He knows that he's not going to be the #2 for long and if he hadn't taken that pay cut, he probably would have been cut along with Winston.

He's not the future. He knows his time is coming. But right now, he's our #2 while Lestar and Keshawn develop but by the end of the season, don't count on him having that position anymore. By mid-season, there's a good chance he's our #4.

Texecutioner
08-19-2012, 10:06 PM
Careful with the friendly fire there, Tex. Read my first post. I want to see Jean in that spot. I just think that it's not as simple as the anti-Walter crowd wants to make it. I would much rather have a playmaker WR out there, but it's obvious that we don't know WTF we're talking about if Kubiak keeps trusting him with the job. For as many opportunities that Kubiak gave JJ, for instance, he never gave those opportunities at the expense of Walter. That says something.

Kubiak is also the same guy that resigned JJ after several poor seasons and resigned him to a really nice deal. Had JJ not muffed that KR in the playoffs he is still here and Kubiak is probably ignoring the awful season he had before the fumble in the playoff game. Kubiak is also the guy that kept giving Chris Brown the RB all of those chances on the GL that season no matter how ineffective he was which cost the Texans a playoff birth that year. Kubiak trusted Amaan Green for one season to long after that horrible first season he had here. Kubiak may be a good offensive coach, but lets not act like his judgement can't be questioned. His history of hanging onto certain players is definitely spotty to say the least. I'm not saying that there may not be good reasons as well that Kubiak has kept his trust and his faith in Walter either, but lets not sit here and act like we can't question Kubiak's decisions either considering his history. A lot of us went ape **** when JJ was resigned and felt like it would haunt our team down the line and it did.

As Pencil Neck pointed out, Walter probably wouldn't even be here right now if he didn't take the pay cut.

thunderkyss
08-19-2012, 10:20 PM
Kubiak is also the same guy that resigned JJ after several poor seasons and resigned him to a really nice deal. Had JJ not muffed that KR in the playoffs he is still here and...

To be fair, what was he to do? LeStar & Trindon were both injured before the season started. That was his "get rid of Jacoby" plan.

Same thing with Chris Brown.... I'd have liked for them to have signed LJ before our bye week, but that's not the decision he made. I don't think it was because he felt he owed Chris Brown anything, but he expected a few of our young core to step up..... Aj, Schaub, Winston, OD, etc... things didn't go the way he planed, but the point is that I don't think it is because of some misplaced loyalty.

The man knows better than you or I, that it's his job on the line & "taking care" of Jacoby Jones isn't going to put food on the table.

Texecutioner
08-19-2012, 10:56 PM
To be fair, what was he to do? LeStar & Trindon were both injured before the season started. That was his "get rid of Jacoby" plan.

Same thing with Chris Brown.... I'd have liked for them to have signed LJ before our bye week, but that's not the decision he made. I don't think it was because he felt he owed Chris Brown anything, but he expected a few of our young core to step up..... Aj, Schaub, Winston, OD, etc... things didn't go the way he planed, but the point is that I don't think it is because of some misplaced loyalty.

The man knows better than you or I, that it's his job on the line & "taking care" of Jacoby Jones isn't going to put food on the table.

Sorry, but this is just a spin. Kubiak has made those mistakes and those I mentioned are mistakes that cost the team. Trying to deflect it all on other things is counter productive to future speculation if we're going to look back on history. LJ was and never would have been a good player to bring in around that time either. He was horrible at that time and had a really bad attitude. Those mistakes cost the team. Simply saying he knows better than you and I because he is a coach isn't really saying anything other than Kubiak is a god because he's an NFL coach that coaches the Texans. What's the point in discussing the team then? Might as well just watch and accept everything Kubiak does as perfect because he apparently knows better than you and I no matter what despite his record being 47-49 in 6 years. He has made some great decisions as well, but to ignore others that haven't been smart sound decisions is not an accurate way to evaluate things. The current condition of the team looks good right now, but it hasn't been that way for the last 4 years.

76Texan
08-19-2012, 11:31 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/texans/story/2012-08-01/texans-offense-receivers/56671564/1

"If you ask anyone in our locker room who's the most underrated player, the most important player or the unsung hero of our team, it's Kevin," Texans quarterback Matt Schaub said. "Every time, hands down. No question."

Added Texans coach Gary Kubiak: "Kevin is just a solid player. He understands our offense to a T. He can play all over the place. He's always there, he never misses time, he never misses anything. He does a lot of dirty work. He's excellent in the run game. Kevin just kind of finds a way to do it."

...

While the statistics might ebb in one direction or the other, to Schaub they represent balance.
"We have a ton of weapons, and I don't think people really see that," he said. "They see a passing game, not an offense. They don't see the total package.

....

"Kevin may have a rough day or two out here at practice, but he's going to be here the whole camp," Kubiak said. "And when it's said and done, he'll still be standing."

Carr Bombed
08-19-2012, 11:40 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/texans/story/2012-08-01/texans-offense-receivers/56671564/1

"If you ask anyone in our locker room who's the most underrated player, the most important player or the unsung hero of our team, it's Kevin," Texans quarterback Matt Schaub said. "Every time, hands down. No question."

Added Texans coach Gary Kubiak: "Kevin is just a solid player. He understands our offense to a T. He can play all over the place. He's always there, he never misses time, he never misses anything. He does a lot of dirty work. He's excellent in the run game. Kevin just kind of finds a way to do it."

...

While the statistics might ebb in one direction or the other, to Schaub they represent balance.
"We have a ton of weapons, and I don't think people really see that," he said. "They see a passing game, not an offense. They don't see the total package.

....

"Kevin may have a rough day or two out here at practice, but he's going to be here the whole camp," Kubiak said. "And when it's said and done, he'll still be standing."

Fantastic... he wins the nice guy award.

76Texan
08-19-2012, 11:49 PM
Fantastic... he wins the nice guy award.

Like I said, I subscribe to NFL game rewind.

I was able to watch 9 games so far from last year, with the All-22 view, and the end zone view.

Walter is the #2 as Kubiak use him.

In Kubiak's terms, he wants another receiver to be use differently.
(Thus the 2A and 2B).

Walter is not going anywhere until another guy can prove he's able to do the things Kubiak wants Walter to do.

Subscribe to NFL Game Rewind and you can see all the details.
You will have a better-informed opinion.

Dutchrudder
08-19-2012, 11:50 PM
^ That's all well and good, but if he's so great, then why did they ask him to cut his salary in half from 3 million to 1.5 this year? Apparently he didn't think he could get more elsewhere, or maybe winning and being a Texan are more important to him. In any case, I don't think Rick is going to ask OD, Manning, Myers, or Antonio to take a paycut without an extension.

76Texan
08-19-2012, 11:55 PM
^ That's all well and good, but if he's so great, then why did they ask him to cut his salary in half from 3 million to 1.5 this year? Apparently he didn't think he could get more elsewhere, or maybe winning and being a Texan are more important to him. In any case, I don't think Rick is going to ask OD, Manning, Myers, or Antonio to take a paycut without an extension.

I would rather not going into guessing mode.

Who knows what's going on behind close doors.

There are plenty of things a guy can be compensated with.

We're living in a capitalist world.
Creative financing is something Bob McNair no doubt has mastered.

Carr Bombed
08-19-2012, 11:55 PM
lol

Blowing zone coverage is not exactly triple covering someone. It called bad defense and a blown assignment. We could've had any receiver out there and chances are they still would've blown the coverage. To try to use that play as a example that teams game plan for Walter or that he scares defenses is rediculous and disingenuous.

Speaking of that play.. it was the same play that Walter scored on against the Bengals.. and the coverage was blown on that play as well. Which speaks to the play itself and how well it's designed.

Carr Bombed
08-20-2012, 12:02 AM
^ That's all well and good, but if he's so great, then why did they ask him to cut his salary in half from 3 million to 1.5 this year? Apparently he didn't think he could get more elsewhere, or maybe winning and being a Texan are more important to him. In any case, I don't think Rick is going to ask OD, Manning, Myers, or Antonio to take a paycut without an extension.

If he's so great then why did Kubiak move Keshawn to the Z position when Andre returned (Walter's position) something tells me Walter is about to lose his job.

And everybody who thinks that this guy is the bee's knees or irreplaceable.. you really need to go pull up the production that other teams are getting from their #2s. Believe it or not.. other teams actually have a #2 wideout who can lead the team in receiving on any given Sunday.

76Texan
08-20-2012, 12:10 AM
If he's so great then why did Kubiak move Keshawn to the Z position when Andre returned.. something tells me Walter is about to lose his job.

And everybody who thinks that this guy is the bee's knees or irreplaceable.. you really need to go pull up the production that other teams are getting from their #2s.

AJ, Walter, and JJ all played every different positions.

Most receivers in the NFL do, after a period of time.

They have to line up as the X, Z, in the slot, or in the common bunch (diamond) formation.

Different system/different coaches use their players differently.

Dutchrudder
08-20-2012, 12:15 AM
I would rather not going into guessing mode.

Who knows what's going on behind close doors.

There are plenty of things a guy can be compensated with.

We're living in a capitalist world.
Creative financing is something Bob McNair no doubt has mastered.

Yeah, I'm not really guessing one way or the other on it, but it is highly unusual for a player to take an outright paycut. I can't think of anyone in the NFL who has done that in the last few years.

I think Walter has his place on this team and that he belongs, but I'm not kidding myself into thinking we can't upgrade him with some younger talent. I'm already liking Kmart more than I ever liked Walter, but we shall see how they pan out this season. There's plenty of room for all 5 WRs to be on this team.

76Texan
08-20-2012, 12:16 AM
Blowing zone coverage is not exactly triple covering someone. It called bad defense and a blown assignment. We could've had any receiver out there and chances are they still would've blown the coverage. To try to use that play as a example that teams game plan for Walter or that he scares defenses is rediculous and disingenuous.

Speaking of that play.. it was the same play that Walter scored on against the Bengals.. and the coverage was blown on that play as well. Which speaks to the play itself and how well it's designed.

It doesn't matter.

The fact remains that the defense call was designed to at least double-team the receicer that runs the post route.

And as I had stated in the game day thread, Walter was also double-teamed on the play where OD was called for false start when Schaub was about to go long to AJ on the right side line.

I don't have time to really key in on Walter on every play yet.
But more or less it's about the same as usual, just another blue-collar day for KDub.

76Texan
08-20-2012, 12:20 AM
Yeah, I'm not really guessing one way or the other on it, but it is highly unusual for a player to take an outright paycut. I can't think of anyone in the NFL who has done that in the last few years.

I think Walter has his place on this team and that he belongs, but I'm not kidding myself into thinking we can't upgrade him with some younger talent. I'm already liking Kmart more than I ever liked Walter, but we shall see how they pan out this season. There's plenty of room for all 5 WRs to be on this team.

Obviously, sooner or later, KW will retire.

How short or long the phasing-out period is will depend on how quickly the young guys progress.

It's inevitable!

GP
08-20-2012, 12:25 AM
Keshawn Martin is something entirely new to us.

He's not a big tall AJ'ish receiver.

He's not a lanky possession receiver.

He's not tiny.

We're staring right at the next big thing, IMO, and it's in a shape/form that hasn't existed here yet.

The guy is electric. He's got glue hands. He's looking like a seasoned veteran. When that guy catches the ball, he's already going or cutting or setting up a move on some defender.

He's got the killer instincts of AJ, the burst of Holliday, the hands of Owen Daniels, and the route running of Kevin Walter. We're staring at #82 becoming the heir to AJ.

Jean is good. Keshawn is a whole 'nuther level of good.

He's the type of guy who goes all Reggie Wayne on a defense and just takes over games on his own.

Kubiak and Schaub are going to use Martin like their own personal Terminator. Minus the nude opening scene.

FosterGreatness
08-20-2012, 12:27 AM
Kubiak and Schaub are going to use Martin like their own personal Terminator. Minus the nude opening scene.

:spit:

Carr Bombed
08-20-2012, 12:35 AM
AJ, Walter, and JJ all played every different positions.

Most receivers in the NFL do, after a period of time.

They have to line up as the X, Z, in the slot, or in the common bunch (diamond) formation.

Different system/different coaches use their players differently.

Yep and as soon as these young bucks learn their roles, Walter will get a new role as well. If he was even half as good as you're trying to make him out to be the guy would've been a LOT more productive when Andre went down last season.

Carr Bombed
08-20-2012, 12:42 AM
It doesn't matter.

The fact remains that the defense call was designed to at least double-team the receicer that runs the post route.

And as I had stated in the game day thread, Walter was also double-teamed on the play where OD was called for false start when Schaub was about to go long to AJ on the right side line.

I don't have time to really key in on Walter on every play yet.
But more or less it's about the same as usual, just another blue-collar day for KDub.

The play is designed to exploit zone coverage.. the receiver who plays that position sucks up the coverage leaving a hole for the other receiver who's running underneath.. I know this because the same damn thing happened against the Bengals.. the only difference was Walter was the one who ran LeStar Jean's route and he was the one who came open. That illustrates the quality of the play and not necessarily the receivers running it.

76Texan
08-20-2012, 12:50 AM
Yep and as soon as these young bucks learn their roles, Walter will get a new role as well. If he was even have as good as you're trying to make him out to be the guy would've been a LOT more productive when Andre went down last season.

I've already started to take note on a game we played without AJ last year.

I will make a thread before the PS ends (I hope), and the title will be "a day in the life of Kevin Walter".

You will see how he was used in the game vs the Tacks in week 7 last year.

I'm halfway through the second quarter.

76Texan
08-20-2012, 01:07 AM
The play is designed to exploit zone coverage.. the receiver who plays that position sucks up the coverage leaving a hole for the other receiver who's running underneath.. I know this because the same damn thing happened against the Bengals.. the only difference was Walter was the one who ran LeStar Jean's route and he was the one who came open. That illustrates the quality of the play and not necessarily the receivers running it.

I'm not saying anything about the quality of the receiver here.

All I'm saying is that Walter was covered by 3 guys.
And when that happens, the QB would never throw the ball to you.

I'm not saying that it happens all the time either.

But there are several factors combined to explain why his production was reduced.

It was not because he can no longer get open.
It was not because he dropped too many balls.

There's no diminishing in his level of play is the point I'm making.

Carr Bombed
08-20-2012, 01:12 AM
I've already started to take note on a game we played without AJ last year.

I will make a thread before the PS ends (I hope), and the title will be "a day in the life of Kevin Walter".

You will see how he was used in the game vs the Tacks in week 7 last year.

I'm halfway through the second quarter.

:) So we have a entire thread of excuse making to look forward to..

Look you can psychoanalye all the game tape you want, but it's not going to change my opinion. I only care about one thing.. production. 39 catches for 474 yards when your all world receiver is standing on the sideline in street clothes during 9 games is not good enough. And stop acting like the reason why he doesn't produce more is because how we use him.. the guy had back to back 800 yard seasons in '07 and '08. (899 yds) His production has nose dived since... hence why he was asked to take a pay cut.

76Texan
08-20-2012, 01:23 AM
:) So we have a entire thread of excuse making to look forward to..

Look you can psychoanalye all the game tape you want, but it's not going to change my opinion. I only care about one thing.. production. 39 catches for 474 yards when your all world receiver is standing on the sideline in street clothes during 9 games is not good enough. And stop acting like the reason why he doesn't produce more is because how we use him.. the guy had back to back 800 yard seasons in '07 and '08. His production has nose dived since... hence why he was asked to take a pay cut.

Never mind then. :)

All I know is that my excuses eventually turned into undeniable reality:
Duane Brown, Barwin, Mario, Myers, Hill (the one who got cut), Reeves, Wilson, Pollard, Jamison, and on and on.

My record of excuses is really really good. :)

Dutchrudder
08-20-2012, 01:40 AM
http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/Sports/My%20Gifs/Texans49ers11.gif

Here's the play slowed down so it's easy to follow the coverage. Looks like the DBs are in zone and just follow the first Texan to get to their area. Big fail on the safety's part. Props to the o-line and their protection, they looked much better this game.

EllisUnit
08-20-2012, 01:47 AM
i see it like this

#1 AJ

#2 Posey/KW

#3 SLot Martin

#4 Jean

#6 Kick returner Holiday


has u can see we have to many good WR's kinda a good problem but

has i see it right now and even tho it sucks If it was me i would have to Cut KW and Holiday


Posey as #2. What have u seen so far from him to come up with that ?

76Texan
08-20-2012, 01:54 AM
http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/Sports/My%20Gifs/Texans49ers11.gif

Here's the play slowed down so it's easy to follow the coverage. Looks like the DBs are in zone and just follow the first Texan to get to their area. Big fail on the safety's part. Props to the o-line and their protection, they looked much better this game.

Excellent!

I hope one day we have the capability to play this in freeze frames so that our eyes can see what the QB was doing at the same instance as each receiver and each defender.

Then we can see that the extra safety (#36 Thomas) extended both arms to bump and redirect KMart (before taking on OD in the left flat), giving the CB #26 Brock time to check on both Martin's route while watching the QB's eyes at the same time.

These two guys were the ones attempting to tackle Jean.

With freeze frame, you can clearly see that #26 was always in front of KMart.
He was in position to jump the route.

There was no way Schaub can throw the ball to KMart with Jean that wide-open.

What do you think, Dutch?

Dutchrudder
08-20-2012, 02:00 AM
He could have tried to squeeze it into Martin, but it probably wouldn't have been a completion. I doubt it would have been an INT, but it would have been a contested catch for sure. That safety was on him and watching Schaub the whole play, just waiting to pounce on the ball. On 3rd and 7 with only 4 rushers, it's tough to find an open man, but Schaub made the right call by waiting for someone to get open. A clean pocket made this happen.

76Texan
08-20-2012, 02:06 AM
He could have tried to squeeze it into Martin, but it probably wouldn't have been a completion. I doubt it would have been an INT, but it would have been a contested catch for sure. That safety was on him and watching Schaub the whole play, just waiting to pounce on the ball. On 3rd and 7 with only 4 rushers, it's tough to find an open man, but Schaub made the right call by waiting for someone to get open. A clean pocket made this happen.

Exactly what I saw after combining several different view.

Just a technical correction.
The "safety" you mentioned was the CB Brock #26.
The extra (third) safety was the one who bumped KMart before going out to the flat to cover OD.
The other two safeties, together with the SAM, formed a triangle around Walter in the middle.

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2012, 08:32 AM
The more I look at this, the more I think it's just excellent play design. Playing that kind of zone against that particular play is destined to fail, I think.

Corrosion
08-20-2012, 09:09 AM
Walter was tripple-covered on the TD to Jean.
The LB 54 and the both safeties formed a triangle around him.


Look again , he also has a LBer #54 playing underneath him #26 is headed in his direction originally but turns tail to Matrin and recovers .... 4 dudes covering Walter.


It was that LBers lack of zone integrity that uncovered Jean. :texanbill:

Dutchrudder
08-20-2012, 09:25 AM
Exactly what I saw after combining several different view.

Just a technical correction.
The "safety" you mentioned was the CB Brock #26.
The extra (third) safety was the one who bumped KMart before going out to the flat to cover OD.
The other two safeties, together with the SAM, formed a triangle around Walter in the middle.

I'll defer to your knowledge of the 49ers second team defense :)

I have to clean up my previous question about Walter's contract restructuring. The restructure was to reduce his 2012 salary from 3.5 million to 2 million. It appears that his 2012-2014 salaries are not guaranteed, so he is likely going to be cut or restructured next year given his 3.5 million pricetag. Given how cash-strapped the Texans are, I doubt we pay him that much next year.

b0ng
08-20-2012, 09:44 AM
After reading the thread a few times I have come to believe it's just an overreaction from preseason games. If anything, the OP and just about anybody who's followed the Texans while Kubiak is in charge knows deep down in their hearts that any change like what is being discussed is going to happen gradually over a season and not after 2 or 4 preseason games.

Rey
08-20-2012, 10:02 AM
The play is designed to exploit zone coverage.. the receiver who plays that position sucks up the coverage leaving a hole for the other receiver who's running underneath.. I know this because the same damn thing happened against the Bengals.. the only difference was Walter was the one who ran LeStar Jean's route and he was the one who came open. That illustrates the quality of the play and not necessarily the receivers running it.

Yep, it's zone coverage.

Show me the man to man coverage where they dedicate multiple defenders strictly to stopping Walter.

This argument is ridiculous. No one goes into game day designing triple coverages for Kevin Walter. That kind of stuff is reserved for Aj.

Show me all these plays in man to man coverage where kw is being bracketed by multiple defenders.

You telling me out of all the receivers we'll have kw is going to be the one drawing the double and triple teams? With Andre, OD, aria , Casey and Lestar/Martin on the field WALTER is going to be the one teams pay extra attention to in coverage?

Well we should be un-f'n droppable then because all the rest of those guys should eat single or no coverage alive then.

76Texan
08-20-2012, 10:06 AM
Yep, it's zone coverage.

Show me the man to man coverage where they dedicate multiple defenders strictly to stopping Walter.

This argument is ridiculous. No one goes into game day designing triple coverages for Kevin Walter. That kind of stuff is reserved for Aj.

Show me all these plays in man to man coverage where kw is being bracketed by multiple defenders.

You telling me out of all the receivers we'll have kw is going to be the one drawing the double and triple teams? With Andre, OD, aria , Casey and Lestar/Martin on the field WALTER is going to be the one teams pay extra attention to in coverage?

Well we should be un-f'n droppable then because all the rest of those guys should eat single or no coverage alive then.

You need to read my posts more closely.

What I said is that when there are several defenders around Walter and Jean wide-open like in this play; the QB will definitely go to Jean.

It is one of the many reasons why Walter's production was down.

There's no argument whatsoever about a team planning on double-teaming Walter.

It's a phantom argument that the naysayers dig up out of the blue.

beerlover
08-20-2012, 10:09 AM
My take. This thread is disrespectful towards a true professional football player who gives up his stats to grind & execute his assignments given. A true team player.

If you want fantasy football numbers you will be sadly disappointed, I know I've been there. There in lies the confusion because he is still out there playing hard, doing the little things like blocking assignments & in general a pain in the a$$ for the other team. If the younger WR finally step up & take some pressure off Andre then it will also help Walter because the passing game will open up more :specnatz:

Rey
08-20-2012, 10:16 AM
You need to read my posts more closely.

What I said is that when there are several defenders around Walter and Jean wide-open like in this play; the QB will definitely go to Jean.

It is one of the many reasons why Walter's production was down.

There's no argument whatsoever about a team planning on double-teaming Walter.

It's a phantom argument that the naysayers dig up out of the blue.

I wasn't responding to anything you said.

I'm on my phone so if I quoted you on accident I apologize.

As far as the phantom argument, I'd say the phantom argument is that a wr that has not been much of a threat catching passes is pulling coverage away from guys like owen Daniels and Andre Johnson.

Running through a guys zone and opening a hole for another guy is more about play design than something kw is doing.

Same thing last year in cincy when kw was the one wide open catching the pass.

My point is that the offense would, [B]at times,[\B] benefit more from a receiver that pulled coverage no matter what the play call is offensively or defensively. And if you don't give them the extra respect they can consistently beat you.

Kw is not that guy.

EllisUnit
08-20-2012, 10:18 AM
Yep, it's zone coverage.

Show me the man to man coverage where they dedicate multiple defenders strictly to stopping Walter.

This argument is ridiculous. No one goes into game day designing triple coverages for Kevin Walter. That kind of stuff is reserved for Aj.

Show me all these plays in man to man coverage where kw is being bracketed by multiple defenders.

You telling me out of all the receivers we'll have kw is going to be the one drawing the double and triple teams? With Andre, OD, aria , Casey and Lestar/Martin on the field WALTER is going to be the one teams pay extra attention to in coverage?

Well we should be un-f'n droppable then because all the rest of those guys should eat single or no coverage alive then.

Don't think that's what he means. Kind of like a crossing route where u intentionally tangle up the CBs/LBs. He's not saying Walter is so good he is getting triple teamed he's saying he goes into their zone and take some of the guys back with him sine he's in their zone.

Playoffs
08-20-2012, 10:30 AM
The upshot is Matt found the easiest target and it turned into six. I do think he could have attempted to zip one to KeyMart around the one yard line.

No idea if Coach Kubiak was chewing Matt about that play or a change he made/wanted or an earlier play or clock management or whatever.

And yes, Walter had 3 around him on that play.

The Medic01
08-20-2012, 10:31 AM
My take. This thread is disrespectful towards a true professional football player who gives up his stats to grind & execute his assignments given. A true team player.

If you want fantasy football numbers you will be sadly disappointed, I know I've been there. There in lies the confusion because he is still out there playing hard, doing the little things like blocking assignments & in general a pain in the a$$ for the other team. If the younger WR finally step up & take some pressure off Andre then it will also help Walter because the passing game will open up more :specnatz:

I'd much rather have a WR who an score and make plays then a guy who can block.

welsh texan
08-20-2012, 10:36 AM
I'd much rather have a WR who an score and make plays then a guy who can block.

So you were upset to see Jacoby get cut then?

The Medic01
08-20-2012, 10:38 AM
So you were upset to see Jacoby get cut then?

Actually Jacoby learned to block late. But no he made boneheaded plays plus his hands and route running were so bad he only made like 3 a year. I want a guy who can make 10-15 like Andre who can also make the little plays.

Corrosion
08-20-2012, 10:48 AM
Running through a guys zone and opening a hole for another guy is more about play design than something kw is doing.



It does have a lot to do with play design .... Many of us have praised Kubiak's route combinations and play design. Thing is , the players on the field still have to properly execute that grand design for it to work .... Obviously KW is executing the plan or he wouldnt be on the field.

Im not saying he's the be all end all of WR's by any stretch of the imagination and would love to upgrade the position .... but as it stands , he does whats required / asked of him by selling his routes to those defenders and drawing their coverage.

You see it on the TD by Jean and again on the play that OD dropped .... he created that window of opportunity for OD with precise route running executing Kubiak's play design flawlessly.

I hope one of the kids takes his job ... not because I dont like KW or because I dont think he's a solid player .... but because if one of them does take his job , they will have earned it and shown to be a better player.

Rey
08-20-2012, 10:58 AM
Actually Jacoby learned to block late. But no he made boneheaded plays plus his hands and route running were so bad he only made like 3 a year. I want a guy who can make 10-15 like Andre who can also make the little plays.

I think jacoby was just as good blocking downfield as kw. I can remember a few times jacoby put db's on their ass as the rb ran past them.

I still think jacoby is gone because of the muffed punt.

It was his first muff of the season, but it would have been hard for him to come back here with his not so great receiving season and then that huge blunder.

Rey
08-20-2012, 11:06 AM
Obviously KW is executing the plan or he wouldnt be on the field.

I'm going to disagree with that. Kw is the best that we've had.

He's on the field because no one has been better or more consistent.

If he's executing "the plan" the team isn't asking him to take a pay cut. Why would you ask a guy to take a cut in pay that is doing everything exactly how you want it done?

Carr Bombed
08-20-2012, 11:50 AM
My take. This thread is disrespectful towards a true professional football player who gives up his stats to grind & execute his assignments given. A true team player.

If you want fantasy football numbers you will be sadly disappointed, I know I've been there. There in lies the confusion because he is still out there playing hard, doing the little things like blocking assignments & in general a pain in the a$$ for the other team. If the younger WR finally step up & take some pressure off Andre then it will also help Walter because the passing game will open up more :specnatz:

:rolleyes: this is a football message board where people discuss football and yes sometimes criticize player performances. It's no different than talk radio. If players get their wittle feelings hurt they don't have to tune in to the radio or log on and they certainly get paid good money to deal with the criticism, so I doubt they care a whole lot. I know I wouldn't.

Goldensilence
08-20-2012, 11:56 AM
I think jacoby was just as good blocking downfield as kw. I can remember a few times jacoby put db's on their ass as the rb ran past them.

I still think jacoby is gone because of the muffed punt.

It was his first muff of the season, but it would have been hard for him to come back here with his not so great receiving season and then that huge blunder.

Jacoby is gone because it finally became evident to even Gary Kubiak, that Jacoby just isn't likely to be able to string it together consistently and because of big mistakes in ST play. I just have a bad feeling Posey is JJ 2.0.

This thread is really disrespectful to KW? Really?!

Even the OP isn't saying we should cut KW or put him in street clothes, but that he needs to see less playing time because he's just not producing. It's not basing any observation on hyperbole, but the real fact his production has dropped off a cliff. This was not lost on the FO in the off-season when he was asked to take a paycut. He just doesn't look like he belongs outside anymore.

NCTexan
08-20-2012, 12:03 PM
I did not realize that. I too was thinking they could stash Posey on the IR. Well, that changes everything & gives more weight to what Spencer was saying during the game last night about Holliday complicating the WR position.

For those that missed his comment, he suggested that the Texans may reduce the number of RB's it carries. We might have to stash Forsett, Grimes & Meggett on the PS. Is Forsett still eligible for the PS?

In any event, with Kubiak's respect for his veterans & the young guns lack of experience, I see Walter being listed as the starter & Jean/Martin coming in shortly after the first play or two. I also see Walter being inserted in when we go into a run the clock out running game due to his blocking skills.

Assuming the 3 young guns develop into bonafide starters this year, I can see the Texans letting KW walk next year.

Also, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Schaub gone after this year.

He is not eligible. It is definitely going to be interesting to see how this all plays out. I hope Posey makes it because I think he has a lot of potential if we can get back into it and get some pointers from AJ and the like.

Plus he waved to me at the Carolina game.

Big Lou
08-20-2012, 12:30 PM
My take. This thread is disrespectful towards a true professional football player who gives up his stats to grind & execute his assignments given. A true team player.

If you want fantasy football numbers you will be sadly disappointed, I know I've been there. There in lies the confusion because he is still out there playing hard, doing the little things like blocking assignments & in general a pain in the a$$ for the other team. If the younger WR finally step up & take some pressure off Andre then it will also help Walter because the passing game will open up more :specnatz:

I agree with this.

KW may have lost a step, I don't know, when it comes to stats there are a lot of factors, and I don't watch games like game film, so I won't speculate where is performance is compared to his high yardage years.

I don't like when a player that works hard and play hard are talked about in the same way as a player like Travis Johnson. KW has been a solid player since his arrival, and deserves our respect.

No disrepect to the OP, but perhaps the title of the thread should be something along the lines of "Young WR may push Kevin Walter to 2nd string."

eriadoc
08-20-2012, 01:23 PM
I sort of skimmed over the last couple pages, and don't feel like quoting any particular poster, so I'll just add my thoughts here. For the record, I want Jean to take Walter's spot. I'm not coming at this from a defense of Walter standpoint. I'm truly trying to understand what it is that Kubiak sees in him that keeps Walter not only on the team, but starting. My personal feelings don't factor into that, because I have no say on his status. I think too many of you are only looking at stats and wanting a WR that puts up stats. That's well and fine, but you have to consider the possibility that Kubiak does not want the same things as you do. So the question then shifts.

I think Kubiak draws up some brilliant plays. If he draws up a brilliant play that requires a WR to go into the heart of a zone defense and draw defenders away from a spot, then he has to have someone sacrifice their stats to do that. You aren't going to ask someone like AJ to do that. He could ask any number of second rate WRs to do that, but he's chosen Walter. Why? Well, he knows Walter and we don't. Until now, we haven't seen on film what Walter does. And so far, the only guy here who says he's watched the All-22 is reporting back with things y'all don't want to hear.

As for the contract restructure/pay cut, I have my own question about it, relative to other offseason activity. Walter has not only played in most of the games since he started playing for the Texans (his 2nd year here, I think), but he's been a starter. Why would you ask a guy like Walter to take a pay cut and then make him the starter? I mean, I get that he makes a little too much money for what they want him to do, and they recognize that, and also they have a ton of other offseason considerations like Myers, Foster, and Duane Brown. But if a guy isn't producing like you want, teams most often just cut them. You don't generally see starters asked to take a pay cut and then remain as a starter. Now add to that line of thinking that they never even asked Winston to take a pay cut. They just cut him outright. He's a far better tackle than Walter is a WR in most fans' opinions (so, grain of salt and all that). But he was just unceremoniously cut loose. They didn't even try to get anything in return.

If they asked him to take a pay cut and then relegated him to backup and/or spot duty, that would mesh better with some of the arguments I'm seeing against Walter. Personally, I just get the feel that they were up against some hard economic realities and they targeted him as a guy that they really wanted to keep but felt like he was making a little too much. I don't read from it that he's on his way out because of it. He may be on his way out, but that'll be because Jean and Martin steps up to his level, not because Walter steps down to anyone else's level.

As always, JMO.

DocBar
08-20-2012, 07:19 PM
OMG!!!! KW didin't make a catch in PS!!!! PANIC BUTTON, PANIC BUTTON!!!!

Seriously, do you really think Kubiak is gonna start anyone else on opening weekend? KW only made the biggest reception in Texan's history' with the last second TD grab against Cinci, that secured our 1st ever playoff berth.

Yes that catch out does Billy Miller's TD grab against the Cowpie's way back in '02

SteveSlaton20
08-20-2012, 07:24 PM
Kevin Walter will be our #2 WR until Lestar Jean can prove that he can play WR2 and Martin will be the slot guy, and KW/Posey will be WR4.

Texecutioner
08-20-2012, 09:43 PM
OMG!!!! KW didin't make a catch in PS!!!! PANIC BUTTON, PANIC BUTTON!!!!

Seriously, do you really think Kubiak is gonna start anyone else on opening weekend? KW only made the biggest reception in Texan's history' with the last second TD grab against Cinci, that secured our 1st ever playoff berth.

Yes that catch out does Billy Miller's TD grab against the Cowpie's way back in '02

Biggest reception in Texans history? Good grief you guys overrate Houston Athletes to such a high degree for being lovable guys at times. I sit back and look at the several threads where so many are going way out of their way to defend this average WR that is known for nothing but his alleged genius blocking and now you guys are at the point of calling a catch of his toward the end of the season as the most important catch in Texans history? Some of you have gone mad. This guy is about the most replaceable guy on this offense. I'm getting really tired of hearing this stuff about Walter as if he is Wes Welker or Lynn Swann making diving catches in the SB. This has gotten way out of hand at this point. I'm hearing some people call it disrespectful to criticize a guy who puts up around 500 yards in a season? Some of you need to drop the Kool Aid pitcher and realize that Walter is no more important to this team then Kareem Jackson is honestly. Kareem Jackson is an average to below average CB that gets hidden in a defense as much as possible. Walter is no different. This stuff I keep reading is unbelievable.

People from other teams would laugh their asses off at how coddled Walter is by certain Houston fans who just love to overrate a guy because he is a good guy.

thunderkyss
08-20-2012, 09:57 PM
LJ was and never would have been a good player to bring in around that time either. He was horrible at that time and had a really bad attitude.

So you're saying starting Chris Brown was the best option?

Rey
08-20-2012, 09:57 PM
Biggest reception in Texans history? Good grief you guys overrate Houston Athletes to such a high degree for being lovable guys at times.


The funny thing about the biggest catch in texans history thing is that Yates threw him the ball so he effectively had the biggest throw in texans history...

I don't see many people giving Yates a pass on his shortcomings because of it.

Eric Winston blocked on that play. It was the biggest pass blocking play I'm texans history.

We cut him.

Jacoby drew the pi call that led to that play. That was the biggest pi call in texans history.

We cut him too.

Rey
08-20-2012, 10:00 PM
If they asked him to take a pay cut and then relegated him to backup and/or spot duty, that would mesh better with some of the arguments I'm seeing against Walter. Personally, I just get the feel that they were up against some hard economic realities and they targeted him as a guy that they really wanted to keep but felt like he was making a little too much. I don't read from it that he's on his way out because of it. He may be on his way out, but that'll be because Jean and Martin steps up to his level, not because Walter steps down to anyone else's level.

As always, JMO.

I hear you.

I don't agree, but I understand what you're saying.

thunderkyss
08-20-2012, 10:06 PM
i see it like this

#1 AJ

#2 Posey/KW

#3 SLot Martin

#4 Jean

#6 Kick returner Holiday


has u can see we have to many good WR's kinda a good problem but

has i see it right now and even tho it sucks If it was me i would have to Cut KW and Holiday

Posey as #2. What have u seen so far from him to come up with that ?

He's been about as absent from the offense as our current #2

thunderkyss
08-20-2012, 10:19 PM
If you want fantasy football numbers you will be sadly disappointed, I know I've been there. There in lies the confusion because he is still out there playing hard, doing the little things like blocking assignments & in general a pain in the a$$ for the other team. If the younger WR finally step up & take some pressure off Andre then it will also help Walter because the passing game will open up more :specnatz:

I get that, & I appreciate that. However, when the #1 goes down, or can't make the game for whatever reason, we need someone to step up. doesn't make sense to me to expect the slot receiver to be that guy, or the unproven rookies.

Carr Bombed
08-20-2012, 10:30 PM
OMG!!!! KW didin't make a catch in PS!!!! PANIC BUTTON, PANIC BUTTON!!!!

Seriously, do you really think Kubiak is gonna start anyone else on opening weekend? KW only made the biggest reception in Texan's history' with the last second TD grab against Cinci, that secured our 1st ever playoff berth.

Yes that catch out does Billy Miller's TD grab against the Cowpie's way back in '02

OMG!!!! I don't remember anybody freaking out aboult his performance this PS! Or touching the panic button because of that. Plenty have people have talked about his diminishing productive over the last few seasons... REGULAR SEASONS.

And what the heck does one catch have to do with someone holding on to or being gauranteed a roster spot? So now Kevin Walter is rewarded a lifetime spot as a starter because he caught a ball on a simple slant? That catch doesn't gaurantee him anything. and I hate to break this to you, but that was not the biggest reception in Texans history. LOL it wasn't even the most impressive catch in that game. It was one of the most memorable plays in Texans history, but go ask David Tyree what that entitles you to.

Whether he starts week 1 or not isn't even the point.. the point is Houston can greatly upgrade at the position and whether that takes place week 1 or week 10 I'm rooting for one of these kids to suplant Walter.. and no, that doesn't mean that I'm looking for "fantasy football stats" from the position.. it means I want a #2 WR who can be a pinch #1 if we need him to be in case AJ goes down... Walter can still have a role on this team, it just shouldn't be as a #2 anymore.

Corrosion
08-20-2012, 10:32 PM
: I'm rooting for one of these kids to suplant Walter.



Bottom line - Me Too.


If someone can do his job better .... go get it. Take it. That makes this team better.

417Texan
08-21-2012, 07:53 AM
I think the 2nd wideout issue sometimes is being be made to much a of a issue at times.

Carr Bombed
08-21-2012, 09:04 AM
I think the 2nd wideout issue sometimes is being be made to much a of a issue at times.

That tends to happen when your #1 has had trouble playing a 16 game schedule in recent years. It's about quality of depth.

eriadoc
08-21-2012, 09:13 AM
it means I want a #2 WR who can be a pinch #1 if we need him to be in case AJ goes down...

What a lot of us are trying to get you to understand is you're not going to get that as long as Kubiak is the coach. If AJ goes down, the #2 WR - whoever it is - is going to continue doing the exact same stuff they were doing. They are not going to step up and fill AJ's role. That is very simply the system that Kubiak runs. Whoever is listed as AJ's backup (Andre Davis, Jacoby Jones in the past, for example) is the one they expect to step up and fill that role. You don't have to agree with it or even like it, but if you don't come to accept it, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. The #2 WR on this team will NOT be the guy that steps up and fills the role of AJ if he goes down.

As I said above, I want Jean in the #2 role, largely because I agree with you in terms of what I want from a #2 WR. I want that more traditional setup. Kubiak doesn't, apparently. He has come out and said it repeatedly.

Carr Bombed
08-21-2012, 09:22 AM
What a lot of us are trying to get you to understand is you're not going to get that as long as Kubiak is the coach. If AJ goes down, the #2 WR - whoever it is - is going to continue doing the exact same stuff they were doing. They are not going to step up and fill AJ's role. That is very simply the system that Kubiak runs. Whoever is listed as AJ's backup (Andre Davis, Jacoby Jones in the past, for example) is the one they expect to step up and fill that role. You don't have to agree with it or even like it, but if you don't come to accept it, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. The #2 WR on this team will NOT be the guy that steps up and fills the role of AJ if he goes down.

As I said above, I want Jean in the #2 role, largely because I agree with you in terms of what I want from a #2 WR. I want that more traditional setup. Kubiak doesn't, apparently. He has come out and said it repeatedly.

It's not about just filling Andre's role and picking up all his responsibilities. You can have a receiver opposite Andre who has the ability to step up and put up #1 type production in his role and it really doesn't have anything to do with Kubaik, because Kubiak already had that type of duo in Rod Smith and McCaffery. This doesn't have anything to do with Kubiak's system, it has to do with the lack of talent we've had opposite Andre throughout his entire career.

RunninRaven
08-21-2012, 09:40 AM
Didn't David Tyree retire of his own free will?

euro-Texan
08-21-2012, 09:44 AM
With Dre's recent injuries, I would feel a whole lot better having Walter's eperiance on the field in case of another injury, but I do feel he should slide over throughout the game to transition in the new blood. I can't imagine he will be on this team next year once some of these new guys have a season of game experiance under their belts, but he is good insurance as a player who knows the system.

Carr Bombed
08-21-2012, 09:48 AM
Didn't David Tyree retire of his own free will?

After he was cut from NY and nobody else picked him up. To be fair though.. he was battling injuries.

Double Barrel
08-21-2012, 10:26 AM
When you subscribe to NFL Rewind, you get all the games from last year, too.
With the all-22 view and one end zone view on top of the normal broadcast view.

I did.
And I've seen Walter get open a pretty fair number of time but the QB didn't look his way (he was not the first read). Sometimes the first read was not open but the QBs forced the ball there while Walter was open. To be fair, sometimes the QBs didn't have enough time to go to the second read.

Yes, Walter did run his good shares of deep routes that pull the safety over such that the QB would go to the underneath receiver.

And yes, Walter was used to block a lot.
Even on passing plays, many times they called on him to block the back side DE or OLB on play action fake.
After he threw the cut block he would get up and started his route.
By then, the QB already found a target.

I remember for sure though, that one year (not last year), I had seen Walter got a catch out of that situation.

Walter is not going anywhere until another guy shows he can do all those things.

Great post, man, and BINGO on your last point.

Kevin Walter's value to this team does not show up on a stat sheet. Fantasy football and Madden are influencing fans in ways that appear to be less than positive, especially when stat sheets become the be all/end all of "insight" and knowledge.

Kubiak is widely considered to be one of the best offensive minds in the game right now.

But, according to many here, they could do a much better job.

However, the simple fact is that they do not understand the fundamentals of his offense. He does not have a "shark's mouth" offense where the #2 WR moves up if #1 goes down. It's not that simple.

^ That's all well and good, but if he's so great, then why did they ask him to cut his salary in half from 3 million to 1.5 this year? Apparently he didn't think he could get more elsewhere, or maybe winning and being a Texan are more important to him. In any case, I don't think Rick is going to ask OD, Manning, Myers, or Antonio to take a paycut without an extension.

[piggybacking your post]

I do not think that salaries are always indicative of value to a team, especially a franchise in cap trouble.

Arian Foster took less money than the market would have offered him. Does that somehow diminish his talent and value to the team?

Perhaps Walter knew that this offense is designed so that a guy with his particular skill set would be #2, while other teams would not utilize him in the same way and he'd be #3 or #4 on another team's roster.

The NFL is not a one size fits all with schemes. What other teams do has little bearing on our team's designed plays.

Gotta' have some faith in Kubiak when it comes to the offense. He's not perfect, but he's damn good enough to deserve some confidence in him.

I'd much rather have a WR who an score and make plays then a guy who can block.

That is a great idea!! You should send your resume to bob.mcnair@houstontexans.com. I'm sure he will respond and force Coach Kubiak to make you his offensive coordinator.

Or, if you don't like the way our offense is desiged, there are 31 other teams to choose from that might play to your preferred style.

BTW, I'm being sarcastic, so no offense (no pun intended). I just find all this armchair coaching to be humorous.

I get that, & I appreciate that. However, when the #1 goes down, or can't make the game for whatever reason, we need someone to step up. doesn't make sense to me to expect the slot receiver to be that guy, or the unproven rookies.

Again, study Kubiak's offense and how the #2 WR works in it. I doubt we ever have a #2 that just moves to the other side and takes over for #1 when they are out, at least the way Kubiak's offense is designed right now.

I will laugh when Walter finally retires/gets cut and Kubiak finds another WR just like him to fill that #2 spot. Then everyone can wring their hands over that dude. Lather, rinse, repeat.

76Texan
08-21-2012, 10:44 AM
It's not about just filling Andre's role and picking up all his responsibilities. You can have a receiver opposite Andre who has the ability to step up and put up #1 type production in his role and it really doesn't have anything to do with Kubaik, because Kubiak already had that type of duo in Rod Smith and McCaffery. This doesn't have anything to do with Kubiak's system, it has to do with the lack of talent we've had opposite Andre throughout his entire career.

At the age of 30, Walter had recorded 193 catches (60, 53, 51, 39) in the last 4 years.
At the same age, McCaffrey had recorded 196 catches (39, 48, 65, 64).

Before that, Walter had his best year with 65 catches.
McCaffrey had 49 (He was with another team; that's why I used the stats from those 4 years.)

...

Furthermore, the make-up of teams change from year to year.
Go back and look at the time McCaffrey was with the Broncos and compare it with the time Walter spent with the Texans.

The Broncos rarely had a decent #3 and #4.
They seldom had a RB that was efficient catching passes out of the backfield.
(Also compare the number of attempts the QBs throw from year to year.)

All these factors added up to give McCaffrey more catches in the later year (after the age of 30).
He would spend 5 more years with the Broncos.

ObsiWan
08-21-2012, 11:02 AM
He could have tried to squeeze it into Martin, but it probably wouldn't have been a completion. I doubt it would have been an INT, but it would have been a contested catch for sure. That safety was on him and watching Schaub the whole play, just waiting to pounce on the ball. On 3rd and 7 with only 4 rushers, it's tough to find an open man, but Schaub made the right call by waiting for someone to get open. A clean pocket made this happen.

Exactly what I saw after combining several different view.

Just a technical correction.
The "safety" you mentioned was the CB Brock #26.
The extra (third) safety was the one who bumped KMart before going out to the flat to cover OD.
The other two safeties, together with the SAM, formed a triangle around Walter in the middle.

The more I look at this, the more I think it's just excellent play design. Playing that kind of zone against that particular play is destined to fail, I think.

Look again , he also has a LBer #54 playing underneath him #26 is headed in his direction originally but turns tail to Matrin and recovers .... 4 dudes covering Walter.


It was that LBers lack of zone integrity that uncovered Jean. :texanbill:

There's one thing (IMHO) that really "sells" this play. Watch how, at the snap and for a sec or so after, Matt Schaub kinda stares down K.W. That makes the defense "lean" or favor the direction K.W. is going; left to right. By the time Jean wanders across the field from right to left, the defense is kinda caught peeking at K.W. and has no chance to cover Jean in time to prevent the TD.
Just my :twocents:

Blake
08-21-2012, 11:04 AM
Good grief. Unless we have an all-pro at every starter position people are always going to be clamoring for the backup. I like the job that Kevin has done, and hope that he can get a few more scores this season to silence the naysayers.

Dutchrudder
08-21-2012, 11:06 AM
[piggybacking your post]

I do not think that salaries are always indicative of value to a team, especially a franchise in cap trouble.

Arian Foster took less money than the market would have offered him. Does that somehow diminish his talent and value to the team?

Perhaps Walter knew that this offense is designed so that a guy with his particular skill set would be #2, while other teams would not utilize him in the same way and he'd be #3 or #4 on another team's roster.

The NFL is not a one size fits all with schemes. What other teams do has little bearing on our team's designed plays.

Gotta' have some faith in Kubiak when it comes to the offense. He's not perfect, but he's damn good enough to deserve some confidence in him.


If Arian Foster takes a 50% paycut next year, then yeah I'll speculate on his perceived value to the team. You just don't see this happen much in the NFL, which is why I'm bringing it up. It's abnormal, and if Kevin Walter is worth 3 million a year to other teams, then I would expect him to get cut and go elsewhere. He nearly signed with Baltimore the last time he hit UFA.

Instead, I think what happened is that Rick called him into his office and explained the situation to him. We are cap-strapped, and his 3.5 million is not guaranteed this year, so Rick probably said they were planning on cutting him unless they can work out some arrangement instead. Kevin's agent negotiates a bit and they land on the 2 million number, saving the team 1.5. Why Kevin did that, I don't know, but it happened, and it's more than I can say they did for Eric Winston's situation.

Specnatz
08-21-2012, 11:55 AM
:) So we have a entire thread of excuse making to look forward to..

Look you can psychoanalye all the game tape you want, but it's not going to change my opinion. I only care about one thing.. production. 39 catches for 474 yards when your all world receiver is standing on the sideline in street clothes during 9 games is not good enough. And stop acting like the reason why he doesn't produce more is because how we use him.. the guy had back to back 800 yard seasons in '07 and '08. (899 yds) His production has nose dived since... hence why he was asked to take a pay cut.

Well thank you T.O and Keyshawn Johnson. I will take wins and guys who are devoted to the team concept. In 2008 Owen Daniels had 70 catches for 862 yrds and has not come near that since. He needs to be replaced by Logan Brock, I mean by your standards it is all about numbers and since this player is declining he needs to be replaced by an unproven guy who has caught a few passes in preseason and in (Que Allen Iverson) PRACTICE. Part of why Walter does not produce you madden numbers is age and how he is used. Oh and he is more a possession type and will never give you those huge numbers.

Not only does Walter block well but he runs perfect routes. He is always where he is supposed to be and when he is supposed to be there. This is why he is able to draw defenders away from others so they can make the catch for example see video posted.

Oh and one other thing, I am damn glad our coaches do analyze the game tapes versus checking how many fantasy points he put up each game.


OK back to lurking :specnatz:

Carr Bombed
08-21-2012, 12:14 PM
At the age of 30, Walter had recorded 193 catches (60, 53, 51, 39) in the last 4 years.
At the same age, McCaffrey had recorded 196 catches (39, 48, 65, 64).

Before that, Walter had his best year with 65 catches.
McCaffrey had 49 (He was with another team; that's why I used the stats from those 4 years.)

...

Furthermore, the make-up of teams change from year to year.
Go back and look at the time McCaffrey was with the Broncos and compare it with the time Walter spent with the Texans.

The Broncos rarely had a decent #3 and #4.
They seldom had a RB that was efficient catching passes out of the backfield.
(Also compare the number of attempts the QBs throw from year to year.)

All these factors added up to give McCaffrey more catches in the later year (after the age of 30).
He would spend 5 more years with the Broncos.

:rolleyes: talk about manipulating stats... Did I ever say anything about McCaffery's age compared to Walter's? Nope. What I was doing was debunking the myth that Kubiak's system makes it impossible to have a "batman and robin" type duo at the WR position.

For three straight seasons (1998-2000) which covered the span of two championships the broncos had two 1,000 yard receivers. Here are the type of #s Smith and McCaffrey were able to have under Kubiak.

Rod Smith
1998- 1,222 rec yards
1999- 1,020 rec yards
2000- 1,602 rec yards

Ed McCaffrey
1998- 1,053 rec yards
1999- 1,018 rec yards
2000- 1,317 rec yards

That's three straight seasons that two WRs have had seasons unlike any season Walter has been able to have... and they did it on the same field.

P.S.

Will people stop the "Madden and fantasy football" crap. It has nothing to do with my opinion.

1. I don't play Madden... really don't play video games.
2. I have only played three seasons of FF and haven't played this last 2 seasons.

My opinion is strictly based on what I see other teams trotting out at #2. They actually have talent that eventually can grow to be their #1. Just look inside our own division. The Colts went from Harrison to Wayne and to Garcon. Look at the steelers, Chargers, Packers, and so on.

The fact that Walter is the best guy that we have ever had behind AJ just illustrates how poorly of a job we've done at developing talent behind him during his career and that's not even a knock on Walter.

Texan4Ever
08-21-2012, 12:16 PM
Why? Did he royally screw up during the preseason game VS the 49ers? I haven't watched them play yet but, I think Walter has secured the #2 spot considering he has stepped up during critical moments.

The Medic01
08-21-2012, 12:45 PM
Why? Did he royally screw up during the preseason game VS the 49ers? I haven't watched them play yet but, I think Walter has secured the #2 spot considering he has stepped up during critical moments.

By stepped up in critical moments you mean ran a slant route uncovered caught a pass that I could have caught and dove backwards in the end zone,

GP
08-21-2012, 12:49 PM
The fact that Walter is the best guy that he have ever had behind AJ is just illustrates how poorly of a job we've done at developing talent behind him during his career and that's not even a knock on Walter.

I think I agree with this, and the reason why: AJ is so freaking amazing...a head coach is going to roll with that and utilize guys like Walter behind AJ. Plus, the TE options increase/enhance AJ's production value.

I give props to Kubiak for going after two WRs in this past draft, and I think he nailed the Keshawn Martin pick. He's going to be the next big thing here, IMO.

drunkcookie
08-21-2012, 12:51 PM
I like Kevin Walter...he's a very hard working guy, seems to run the right routes, blocks well til the whistle and is usually an automatic catch if thrown to... I know he does the things Kubiak likes and all, but the guy averaged 41 yds per game last year with AJ out and Schaub in... Jacoby averaged 47 yds per game with AJ out and Schaub in, finished with more total yards than Walter and was released after fumbling a punt for the first time in a couple of years...

Now, I don't think that he "can go sit on the bench", but I think he can for sure be weeded out this season...

drunkcookie
08-21-2012, 12:59 PM
I like Kevin Walter...he's a very hard working guy, seems to run the right routes, blocks well til the whistle and is usually an automatic catch if thrown to... I know he does the things Kubiak likes and all, but the guy averaged 41 yds per game last year with AJ out and Schaub in... Jacoby averaged 47 yds per game with AJ out and Schaub in, finished with more total yards than Walter and was released after fumbling a punt for the first time in a couple of years...

Now, I don't think that he "can go sit on the bench", but I think he can for sure be weeded out this season...

Something funny about this post... when I was looking up the stats for Walter and Jacoby I was using my phone to do so... looked up Walter's stats and jotted 'em down...even looked at AJ's stats (105 yds per game average first three games last year, BTW)... got to Jacoby's stats and my service "dropped"...

76Texan
08-21-2012, 01:05 PM
:rolleyes: talk about manipulating stats... Did I ever say anything about McCaffery's age compared to Walter's? Nope. What I was doing was debunking the myth that Kubiak's system makes it impossible to have a "batman and robin" type duo at the WR position.

For three straight seasons (1998-2000) which covered the span of two championships the broncos had two 1,000 yard receivers. Here are the type of #s Smith and McCaffrey were able to have under Kubiak.

Rod Smith
1998- 1,222 rec yards
1999- 1,020 rec yards
2000- 1,602 rec yards

Ed McCaffrey
1998- 1,053 rec yards
1999- 1,018 rec yards
2000- 1,317 rec yards

That's three straight seasons that two WRs have had seasons unlike any season Walter has been able to have... and they did it on the same field.

P.S.

Will people stop the "Madden and fantasy football" crap. It has nothing to do with my opinion.

1. I don't play Madden... really don't play video games.
2. I have only played three seasons of FF and haven't played this last 2 seasons.

My opinion is strictly based on what I see other teams trotting out at #2. They actually have talent that eventually can grow to be their #1. Just look inside our own division. The Colts went from Harrison to Wayne and to Garcon. Look at the steelers, Chargers, Packers, and so on.

The fact that Walter is the best guy that we have ever had behind AJ just illustrates how poorly of a job we've done at developing talent behind him during his career and that's not even a knock on Walter.

CB, please re-read my posts carefully.

What I really like for you to do is to go to profootball reference and check out those 3 years from 1998 to 2000.

See how many attempts the Broncos QBs had in those years.
Check to see how many passes their #3 and #4 caught, how many their major threats out of the backfield caught.

Then you will see that the make-up of the Broncos teams in those years were very different from that of the Texans of late.

Their #3' best season in those years were like 4 catches;
their RB' best season was like 23 catches.

With more pass attempts (than the Texans had last year) and very little contriubution from those other positions, you can be sure that more passes were thrown McCaffrey's way.

And like I said, you can only look at what Walter does up to 2011 (when he was 30) and compare it to McCaffrey up to the same age (1998).

Goldensilence
08-21-2012, 01:20 PM
I think I agree with this, and the reason why: AJ is so freaking amazing...a head coach is going to roll with that and utilize guys like Walter behind AJ. Plus, the TE options increase/enhance AJ's production value.

I give props to Kubiak for going after two WRs in this past draft, and I think he nailed the Keshawn Martin pick. He's going to be the next big thing here, IMO.

I just have a hard time giving Gary "props" on going after WRs this draft. It's just like the lack of production for years at safety that was killing this defense. He doesn't make a change until it is glaringly evident something has to be done to shore up the position(s). Difference is AJ (at least when healthy) has covered for the lack of anything beyond the spot and the offense has been varied enough to cover up for the lack of production at the position.

Posey is starting to look like JJ 2.0; another project who we all have to hope will work out and will have a fairly high round draft pick investment to keep him around.

However, as I criticize, I do have to give Kubiak/Smith credit for Martin and picking Jean as an UDFA. Both looks like gamers in PS at least.

drunkcookie
08-21-2012, 01:27 PM
Posey is starting to look like JJ 2.0; another project who we all have to hope will work out and will have a fairly high round draft pick investment to keep him around

Way too early for all of that...u don't draft a guy in the 3rd round and "expect" him to come in and take #2/#3 reps off the bat in preseason...

Looks like they did very well on Martin, though...love it... Hope that holds up...

Carr Bombed
08-21-2012, 02:12 PM
I like Kevin Walter...he's a very hard working guy, seems to run the right routes, blocks well til the whistle and is usually an automatic catch if thrown to... I know he does the things Kubiak likes and all, but the guy averaged 41 yds per game last year with AJ out and Schaub in... Jacoby averaged 47 yds per game with AJ out and Schaub in, finished with more total yards than Walter and was released after fumbling a punt for the first time in a couple of years...

Now, I don't think that he "can go sit on the bench", but I think he can for sure be weeded out this season...

Okay.. I admit, I should've went with another title.. I got a little excited after watching Martin and Jean. Who look like the top prospects we've had at the position since Andre... and unlike Jacoby, they actually look like WRs and not just a athlete trying to play the position.

There's still a place for Walter, but as a #2 I think it's time to reach back and pass the baton off.

Vinny
08-21-2012, 02:19 PM
Okay.. I admit, I should've went with another title.. I got a little excited after watching Martin and Jean. Who look like the top prospects we've had at the position since Andre... and unlike Jacoby, they actually look like WRs and not just a athlete trying to play the position.

There's still a place for Walter, but as a #2 I think it's time to reach back and pass the baton off.
I think we'll see Walter lose snaps over the course of the year and will be Billy Miller'd after this season if the others progress like it looks like they might.

GP
08-21-2012, 02:24 PM
I just have a hard time giving Gary "props" on going after WRs this draft. It's just like the lack of production for years at safety that was killing this defense. He doesn't make a change until it is glaringly evident something has to be done to shore up the position(s). Difference is AJ (at least when healthy) has covered for the lack of anything beyond the spot and the offense has been varied enough to cover up for the lack of production at the position.

Posey is starting to look like JJ 2.0; another project who we all have to hope will work out and will have a fairly high round draft pick investment to keep him around.

However, as I criticize, I do have to give Kubiak/Smith credit for Martin and picking Jean as an UDFA. Both looks like gamers in PS at least.

I think Posey is dealing with making the jump into NFL-caliber ball. Brandon Brooks, IMO, is having that same sort of issue. To me, those two guys look (or by the reports I have heard thus far) as if they're still that college ball player who is sort of not progressing into NFL readiness as fast as Keshawn Martin has.

Two guys that I think embody the not-so-ready-for-the-NFL are: Kareem Jackson and Trindon Holliday. Both of them have taken a couple of years to grow into an NFL-readiness that we can see developing, finally, in the preseason thus far. Attitude, a sense of belonging, confidence, it's taken awhile for those two guys to really sync with what this team requires of them.

I mean, as much as people in the media want to gush about how NFL-ready Andrew Luck is at this point....those same people need to watch tape of K-Mart and how Schaub has been connecting with K-Mart as if they've played together for years already. It's spooky crazy how good K-Mart is playing. He just appears into the windows he needs to and BAM! quick strike catch and crazy YAC. Even the end-around play two games ago was really nice looking, much more productive and technically-sound than Jacoby's ever was.

For this, I grant Kubiak some grace...because he picked up Posey and Martin in the draft and he has immediately hit on K-Mart and jury is definitely out on Posey. I think Posey is a guy who comes back next year and everything just clicks. Some guys just develop into NFL-readiness slower than others, IMO.

But when you're the HC and you've got AJ at WR1, you probably don't tend to think it's a big deal if you don't nail the WR picks or even the FA acquisitions. I'd wager to say that AJ's prolonged absence last year has driven Kubiak to take it more seriously, though, from here onward. K-Mart is going to be HUGE.

The Pencil Neck
08-21-2012, 02:24 PM
Calling Devier JJ 2.0 at this stage is WAY too early. He's already shown a much better work ethic than JJ, I think. It took JJ a few years to become a hard worker from what I remember. And at this point, JJ was frankly tearing it up on special teams.

Drafting WRs is a hit-or-miss proposition at best and they did take a risk with Posey. He could bomb out.

BUT... if they hit with Martin, then Posey is irrelevant. If Jean develops, then Posey is just gravy.

If Posey does develop (and at this stage, he might still end up being the best of the bunch) and those other guys turn out to be good, too, then we're going to have one of the best receiving corps in the league.

But there are a lot of ifs there and we've only played 2 preseason games. We've got a long way to go before we know about Posey.

Goldensilence
08-21-2012, 02:27 PM
Way too early for all of that...u don't draft a guy in the 3rd round and "expect" him to come in and take #2/#3 reps off the bat in preseason...

Looks like they did very well on Martin, though...love it... Hope that holds up...

I didn't get a good feeling on draft day nabbing a guy who had a lower draft grade and missed 10 games last year due to suspension whether I agreed with it or not.

I guess I just don't think that this team, which wasn't able to really address a lot of spots via FA and had to lean heavily on this draft for improvement to take a project like this in the third. Not to mention coming into this season there was going to be at least 3 spots at WR up for grab as they turn around the position.

Thankfully, it's looking like Jean and Martin are picking up the slack.

GP
08-21-2012, 02:32 PM
Calling Devier JJ 2.0 at this stage is WAY too early. He's already shown a much better work ethic than JJ, I think. It took JJ a few years to become a hard worker from what I remember. And at this point, JJ was frankly tearing it up on special teams.

Drafting WRs is a hit-or-miss proposition at best and they did take a risk with Posey. He could bomb out.

BUT... if they hit with Martin, then Posey is irrelevant. If Jean develops, then Posey is just gravy.

If Posey does develop (and at this stage, he might still end up being the best of the bunch) and those other guys turn out to be good, too, then we're going to have one of the best receiving corps in the league.

But there are a lot of ifs there and we've only played 2 preseason games. We've got a long way to go before we know about Posey.

I think your post dove-tails nicely with mine.

K-Mart has consumed all of the oxygen in the room so far. How the hell does a guy like Posey, who missed most of the NCAA season last year (probably dealing with the residue off of that, IMO), look at what K-Mart has been doing--how quickly K-Mart has exploded out of the starting block--and try to compete with that?!? LOL, he can't. K-Mart is dominating. K-Mart, and I know this is still very early, but still...the dude is phenomenal from what I have seen and he hasn't even been playing full snaps and ****. It's really, really promising for K-Mart.

I think Posey needs a year. He needs to sit and soak up the Texans system. But I bet once he clicks, the day when he jumps up and decides it's time for him to pour it on...he's going to do well. I think K-Mart and Jean and Posey will slowly become this team's WR crew. And maybe a new guy here and there, also.

GP
08-21-2012, 02:36 PM
I was really hard on the Posey pick back when the draft happened.

The guy is going to need a year, I'm really sure of it. He seems like he's that Kareem Jackson or Trindon Holliday type of player who has the skills, has the heart, etc., but for many reasons just gonna' develop a bit slower than others. I have been a KJ hater, too, and his play in the preseason right now (which I think started in the playoff game vs. baltimore last season!) shows me that some guys just need t-i-m-e. I didn't think KJ had it in him. I thought he was a busted pick.

But because of KJ's slower development, it gives me hope for Posey.

How many rookies really, truly, shift into overdrive right from the start? You can have 5th round rookies who look like 1st rounders and 1st rounders who look like 5th rounders when camp and preseason begins...this is why I love football so much--The inability to always know what ya' got until what ya' got gets into camp and hits the field in preseason. And we'd heard K-Mart was doing well in practices, but man oh man sometimes you think a guy might just be a workout warrior. From the games I have seen, K-Mart is a machine.

HOU-TEX
08-21-2012, 02:39 PM
Jacoby used to be a pre-season warrior too.

Like Vinny said, Walter will slowly be phased out as long as the newbs continue to prove their worth throughout the season.

That said, I'm really diggin this K-Mart kid. He seems to have great hands and apparently has a similar personality to that of AJ. AJ's mini-me

GP
08-21-2012, 02:48 PM
Jacoby used to be a pre-season warrior too.

Like Vinny said, Walter will slowly be phased out as long as the newbs continue to prove their worth throughout the season.

That said, I'm really diggin this K-Mart kid. He seems to have great hands and apparently has a similar personality to that of AJ. AJ's mini-me

See, I don't think he's a mini-AJ. OK, maybe in substance, but not in style.

I struggle to know how to describe K-Mart. I want to say Derrick Mason in his prime...but yet it's not a fully reasonable comparison, right?

K-Mart appears to be a lot like Steve Smith (Panthers) to me...the guy who catches or weaves through traffic and once he touches the ball his athleticism is too much for defenses to handle. Jacoby was supposed to be that, but ya' know...well, anyways...

AJ, to me, is that large-framed guy who has deceptive stride...he's past the defenders and leaping for grabs that only he can make (climbing the ladder or going into traffic) and K-Mart is a knifing, slashing kind of guy. He's not really a true slot receiver and yet he's not really a wide out either. He's sort of like a mixture of both. A hybrid slot/wide out who, if anything, represents the flexibility of a guy like Owen Daniels...you can't begin to find him AND cover all the routes that he can perform.

The Medic01
08-21-2012, 03:10 PM
See, I don't think he's a mini-AJ. OK, maybe in substance, but not in style.

I struggle to know how to describe K-Mart. I want to say Derrick Mason in his prime...but yet it's not a fully reasonable comparison, right?

K-Mart appears to be a lot like Steve Smith (Panthers) to me...the guy who catches or weaves through traffic and once he touches the ball his athleticism is too much for defenses to handle. Jacoby was supposed to be that, but ya' know...well, anyways...

AJ, to me, is that large-framed guy who has deceptive stride...he's past the defenders and leaping for grabs that only he can make (climbing the ladder or going into traffic) and K-Mart is a knifing, slashing kind of guy. He's not really a true slot receiver and yet he's not really a wide out either. He's sort of like a mixture of both. A hybrid slot/wide out who, if anything, represents the flexibility of a guy like Owen Daniels...you can't begin to find him AND cover all the routes that he can perform.
I most look forward to watching him take a 10 yard route to the house. YAC is not AJs strong suit.

Rey
08-21-2012, 03:12 PM
CB, please re-read my posts carefully.

What I really like for you to do is to go to profootball reference and check out those 3 years from 1998 to 2000.

See how many attempts the Broncos QBs had in those years.
Check to see how many passes their #3 and #4 caught, how many their major threats out of the backfield caught.

Then you will see that the make-up of the Broncos teams in those years were very different from that of the Texans of late.

Their #3' best season in those years were like 4 catches;
their RB' best season was like 23 catches.

With more pass attempts (than the Texans had last year) and very little contriubution from those other positions, you can be sure that more passes were thrown McCaffrey's way.

And like I said, you can only look at what Walter does up to 2011 (when he was 30) and compare it to McCaffrey up to the same age (1998).


You realize that Schaub is usually at the top of the league in pass attempts per/gm....

KW is not anywhere near the receiver that McCaffrey was. It's not even close.

eriadoc
08-21-2012, 03:16 PM
K-Mart appears to be a lot like Steve Smith (Panthers) to me...the guy who catches or weaves through traffic and once he touches the ball his athleticism is too much for defenses to handle.

Steve Smith is the guy I thought about, but he's going to have to show a mean streak to get compared to Steve Smith. FWIW though, Smith didn't get on the field outside of STs much his first couple years.

Double Barrel
08-21-2012, 03:22 PM
If Arian Foster takes a 50% paycut next year, then yeah I'll speculate on his perceived value to the team. You just don't see this happen much in the NFL, which is why I'm bringing it up. It's abnormal, and if Kevin Walter is worth 3 million a year to other teams, then I would expect him to get cut and go elsewhere. He nearly signed with Baltimore the last time he hit UFA.

Instead, I think what happened is that Rick called him into his office and explained the situation to him. We are cap-strapped, and his 3.5 million is not guaranteed this year, so Rick probably said they were planning on cutting him unless they can work out some arrangement instead. Kevin's agent negotiates a bit and they land on the 2 million number, saving the team 1.5. Why Kevin did that, I don't know, but it happened, and it's more than I can say they did for Eric Winston's situation.

I don't disagree with you. I think Walter understands that his #2 status is based upon how they utilize him, which is somewhat unique and he would probably not have the opportunity with most other teams.

I also think he's a team player and likes Houston, so all these things combined presented a situation that he knew that he'd have to take a cut to stay on the team and playing hard ball about his salary could end his time as a Texan.

Will people stop the "Madden and fantasy football" crap. It has nothing to do with my opinion.


My mention of FF and Madden was not a direct knock on you. I have just noticed over the years an over-reliance on stats to evaluate players when many times the value to a team is not necessarily recorded as a stat. FF has many fans so absorbed with stat sheets that they are unable to be objective. Same with Madden and unrealistic trade scenarios and talent level of individual players.

It's just an observation, and no need to get upset about it any more than I would get upset that your opinion is for benching Walter.

I think we'll see Walter lose snaps over the course of the year and will be Billy Miller'd after this season if the others progress like it looks like they might.

I agree. I think most positions improve when they have someone in the wings competing for playing time.

Walter has been a solid player for us, but I am not attached to anyone so much that I want loyalty over talent. Even AJ will eventually be replaced, but most likely not with someone nearly as awesome.

rush2112mn
08-21-2012, 03:32 PM
I think the #2 wide reciever spot is up for grabs myself. I have seen some real good things out of Jean and Martin. I don't think Walters has got that spot locked up myself.

Thorn
08-21-2012, 03:46 PM
I think the #2 wide reciever spot is up for grabs myself. I have seen some real good things out of Jean and Martin. I don't think Walters has got that spot locked up myself.

For the start of the season, I think Walter has it locked up. But as the season progresses, that may change if Jean and Martin show their stuff in real games.

The Medic01
08-21-2012, 03:57 PM
My take is this. Kubiak wants a playmaking WR downfield. He does know however that Martin and Jean have performed well in preseason only up to this point. I think he starts Walter simply because he has game experience. If by week 10 or so Jean is still performing better than Walter he will take Walters spot. Just my take.


Note: If only Martin plays better he still will not supplant Walter because he is not suited for playing outside.

ObsiWan
08-21-2012, 05:29 PM
My take is this. Kubiak wants a playmaking WR downfield. He does know however that Martin and Jean have performed well in preseason only up to this point. I think he starts Walter simply because he has game experience. If by week 10 or so Jean is still performing better than Walter he will take Walters spot. Just my take.


Note: If only Martin plays better he still will not supplant Walter because he is not suited for playing outside.

It may not take until week ten.

steelbtexan
08-21-2012, 06:32 PM
My take is this. Kubiak wants a playmaking WR downfield. He does know however that Martin and Jean have performed well in preseason only up to this point. I think he starts Walter simply because he has game experience. If by week 10 or so Jean is still performing better than Walter he will take Walters spot. Just my take.


Note: If only Martin plays better he still will not supplant Walter because he is not suited for playing outside.

I agree with your take.

However you underestimate Martin. IMHO

What happened to Posey, he seems to be like a fish out of water.

Vinny
08-21-2012, 07:52 PM
Steve Smith is the guy I thought about, but he's going to have to show a mean streak to get compared to Steve Smith. FWIW though, Smith didn't get on the field outside of STs much his first couple years.Martin kind of gives me more of a Drew Hill (RIP) vibe. Sudden, creates separation, has good hands and is all business on the field. He should be great in the slot.

http://www.ajc.com/multimedia/dynamic/00871/2dr__871032l.jpg

michaelm
08-21-2012, 11:33 PM
Martin kind of gives me more of a Drew Hill (RIP) vibe. Sudden, creates separation, has good hands and is all business on the field. He should be great in the slot.

http://www.ajc.com/multimedia/dynamic/00871/2dr__871032l.jpg

Funny, I was talking to AJ (Alan Burge) at the game Saturday, and he compared him to Ernest Givens.

eriadoc
08-21-2012, 11:53 PM
Martin kind of gives me more of a Drew Hill (RIP) vibe. Sudden, creates separation, has good hands and is all business on the field. He should be great in the slot.

I like that. That is a much better comparison.

76Texan
08-22-2012, 12:00 AM
You realize that Schaub is usually at the top of the league in pass attempts per/gm....

KW is not anywhere near the receiver that McCaffrey was. It's not even close.

According to Profootball reference, McCaffrey came into the league in 1991, at the age of 23
He played 3 years for the Giants and 1 year for the Niner before heading to the Broncos.
In those 4 years, he totaled 103 catches.

He joined the Broncos in 1995.
In his first 4 years with the Broncos (between the age of 27-30) he totaled 196 catches in 61 games played
(39, 48, 45, 64).
In those 4 years, the Broncos had 2,134 pass attempts.

196 catches / 2,134 attempts = 9.18 per cent

...

In the 4 years when Walter was between 23-26, he caught 109 balls (6 more than McCaffrey during the same age period).

In the next 4 years (all with the Texans) Walter caught 203 balls (60, 53, 51, 39) - 7 more than McCaffrey.
(My previous addition was incorrect, showing that Walter had a few less than McCaffrey).

He also played in 61 games, the same as McCaffrey.

The Texans had 2,189 pass attempts in those 4 years.
203 catches / 2,189 attempts = 9.27 per cent.

Walter's production is actually better than McCaffrey in both periods of time.

eriadoc
08-22-2012, 12:15 AM
If the math doesn't fit, you must acquit! :D

76Texan
08-22-2012, 12:20 AM
If the math doesn't fit, you must acquit! :D

msr

Carr Bombed
08-22-2012, 01:27 AM
If the math doesn't fit, you must acquit! :D

Problem is the numbers don't fit.. it's simply someone over analyizing stats, bending them to try to create some argument, and ignoring the actual on the field production... which is what 76 always does. Throws out a bunch a stats, but ignores the production.

Walter has never had the type of production that Mccaffery had during the Broncos glory years and he doesn't come close to being that type of receiver.. sorry.

Carr Bombed
08-22-2012, 01:28 AM
Double post

aussie_texan
08-22-2012, 02:25 AM
My take is this. Kubiak wants a playmaking WR downfield. He does know however that Martin and Jean have performed well in preseason only up to this point. I think he starts Walter simply because he has game experience. If by week 10 or so Jean is still performing better than Walter he will take Walters spot. Just my take.


Note: If only Martin plays better he still will not supplant Walter because he is not suited for playing outside.

im not sure where this is coming from. just because his under 6ft doesn't mean he can't play outside. he as all the talent and ability too and we have even seen him line up outside on numerous plays during the pre-season.

thunderkyss
08-22-2012, 07:48 AM
Problem is the numbers don't fit.. it's simply someone over analyizing stats, bending them to try to create some argument, and ignoring the actual on the field production... which is what 76 always does. Throws out a bunch a stats, but ignores the production.

Walter has never had the type of production that Mccaffery had during the Broncos glory years and he doesn't come close to being that type of receiver.. sorry.

No, the problem is that our memory doesn't serve us well in this case. I thought more of Mccaffery than what the numbers show. I guess, same as Matt, when the games don't matter the production seems a lot less. Mccaffery was always making clutch plays to keep his team in contention, a situation Walter has only recently found himself in, & Schaub never has.

Winning changes everything.

eriadoc
08-22-2012, 09:48 AM
Problem is the numbers don't fit.. it's simply someone over analyizing stats, bending them to try to create some argument, and ignoring the actual on the field production... which is what 76 always does. Throws out a bunch a stats, but ignores the production.

Walter has never had the type of production that Mccaffery had during the Broncos glory years and he doesn't come close to being that type of receiver.. sorry.


First off, the little catch phrase was a joke, hence the smilie. Second, since you're the guy that flat out said you're not changing your opinion no matter what facts come to bear, I'll just disregard your opinion altogether. Nothing personal, but you've admitted you're not interested in actually discussing or discovering in this thread. :smooch:

For anyone who is curious about those stats like I was, here are the first four years McCaffrey was a Bronco. Personally, I don't think they're really fair to compare anyway, because McCaffrey was more developed when he first went to the Broncos, had an all-time great throwing him the ball and a HOF TE to go alongside Rod Smith, who is a borderline HOFer himself. Nonetheless, 76Texan already gave you the percentage of offense, so here are the raw numbers:

McCaffrey:

1995 - 39 rec, 477 yds, 12.2 YPC
1996 - 48 rec, 553 yds, 11.5 YPC
1997 - 45 rec, 590 yds, 13.1 YPC
1998 - 64 rec, 1053 yds, 16.5 YPC

Walter:

2006 - 17 rec, 160 yds, 9.4
2007 - 65 rec, 800 yds, 12.3
2008 - 60 rec, 899 yds, 15.0
2009 - 53 rec, 611 yds, 11.5

I don't think I've read anyone saying Walter is as good as McCaffrey was, but rather they had similar roles, which I don't think is outlandish. Now, part of what made McCaffrey great is the fact that he produced for a long time. Within this comparable sample size, Walter holds up well to that comparison, but it ignores what happened from that point forward, which is much more relevant to the current discussion. McCaffrey went on to post seasons of 1018, 1317, and 903 yards, with a season missed due to injury in there as well. Walter's numbers have gone the other way. I think it's fair to say that we've likely seen what we're going to see from Walter. I suppose we could have a Super Bowl year where the offense goes nuts and Walter's stats leap accordingly, but I don't think we're going to see 4000+ receiving yards from Walter in any given four year span.

So given that, I want to see the guy that I think absolutely has the potential to do that put in the #2 WR spot - Lestar Jean. I also think Martin in the slot will help the entire receiving corps in a way that Walter never benefited from during his tenure so far. As I posted before, I don't know what criteria Kubiak is using to judge the #2 WR, but it's very clear that it's not statistical production. Like it or not, to this point it would have been easier to make the team from the position that backed up AJ, since that guy is the one that got the targets. Whatever that criteria is, I hope Star can get it and take over the spot, because he has big time playmaking ability, IMO.

Texan_Bill
08-22-2012, 09:55 AM
Martin kind of gives me more of a Drew Hill (RIP) vibe. Sudden, creates separation, has good hands and is all business on the field. He should be great in the slot.

http://www.ajc.com/multimedia/dynamic/00871/2dr__871032l.jpg

Dang Vinny. I had forgot that Drew Hill (RIP) passed away.

76Texan
08-22-2012, 12:53 PM
No, the problem is that our memory doesn't serve us well in this case. I thought more of Mccaffery than what the numbers show. I guess, same as Matt, when the games don't matter the production seems a lot less. Mccaffery was always making clutch plays to keep his team in contention, a situation Walter has only recently found himself in, & Schaub never has.

Winning changes everything.

Repped for having an open mind.

As Eriadoc said, McCaffrey was quite a player; but let's not sell Walter short.

Watch these highlights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjyAGArt8u0

We can see a combination of things:
- Some real highlitghts
- Some where he was wide-open due to one thing or another (on some passes we can't see how the route was ran; whether he beat his man or there was poor coverage.)
- Some where the QB laid a perfect pass.

I actually saw Walter made quite a few highlight reel plays as well.
If we're to compile it, there will be enough to show that he didn't trail McCaffrey by much.

Sure, McCaffrey had more TDs, but we really don't know how many of those were the result of the kind of play we talked about with Jean and Walter recently.

And let's not forget that McCaffrey went to the Broncos as a vet over a younger Rod Smith, but Smith leap-frogged him.

There was always a number one receiver to draw more attention in coverage for McCaffrey (they were healthy almost all the time).
On the other hand, AJ was down quite a bit, and Walter certainly did not benefit from that.

Also, the Broncos running game was in high gear in those 4 years (ranked 5, 1, 4, and 2), which should helped open up the passing game.
The running game was not as good the following year, but still very potent, falling out of the top ten only once - at #12.)

McCaffrey had a few more very productive years after the age of 30 (the age which Walter has not reached yet).

In those "future" years, the Broncos #3 receiver, like I said, caught like 4 passes in one year, and 3 passes in a couple other years.

And again, like I said, the Broncos didn't have a back that was as efficient out of the backfield as Foster, so they had to go the main two guys more.

That doesn't mean they were guaranteed to win though, as they went 6-10, 11-5, 8-8 and 9-7 those next 4 future years.

Double Barrel
08-22-2012, 02:49 PM
I don't think I've read anyone saying Walter is as good as McCaffrey was, but rather they had similar roles, which I don't think is outlandish.

Thank you, saved me some typing. MSR for the overall post.

When Walter is retired or replaced, people will ***** about the next #2 WR because he will not be able to step into the #1 role. But Kubiak's offense is not designed that way, and it's not going to have #1a and #1b on both sides of the field.

Vinny
08-22-2012, 03:21 PM
I don't think I've read anyone saying Walter is as good as McCaffrey was, but rather they had similar roles, which I don't think is outlandish.
I agree with this. They played similar roles and the production wasn't wildly different. Flip the script and Rod Smith isn't up to the caliber of Andre Johnson and Matt Schaub isn't John Elway either...but they played similar roles.

NBT
08-22-2012, 03:57 PM
I think KW has had it. A good blocker is only good on 1st & 2nd down. He is more of a liability as a receiver now that he is 31 years old. Ancient in the game of football. He was never that fleet of foot and now he doesn't have the agility needed to make the moves a good WR has to have. It is time to go to the new blood.

Texans_Chick
08-22-2012, 04:08 PM
Thank you, saved me some typing. MSR for the overall post.

When Walter is retired or replaced, people will ***** about the next #2 WR because he will not be able to step into the #1 role. But Kubiak's offense is not designed that way, and it's not going to have #1a and #1b on both sides of the field.

This.

Let fantasy football types worry about individual WR production. Each of the WRs on the Texans team have their strengths and weaknesses and roles, and with the new guys it is going to be a discovery of what those are on the NFL level.

The Texans offense is just a bunch of targets. Andre Johnson gets extra targeting because he is a more advanced species than we are. But whoever catches the ball consistently and makes plays, will get the ball.

HOU-TEX
08-22-2012, 04:09 PM
I think KW has had it. A good blocker is only good on 1st & 2nd down. He is more of a liability as a receiver now that he is 31 years old. Ancient in the game of football. He was never that fleet of foot and now he doesn't have the agility needed to make the moves a good WR has to have. It is time to go to the new blood.

Andre Johnson's 31 years old. Just thought I'd point that out

Carr Bombed
08-26-2012, 11:09 AM
Did Kevin Walter even play last night?

EllisUnit
08-26-2012, 11:13 AM
Did Kevin Walter even play last night?

haha yeah he was out there. Jean and Martin are beginning to make KW look not so valuable IMO.

Corrosion
08-26-2012, 12:41 PM
Did Kevin Walter even play last night?

He was the outside reciever on Martin's TD catch .... pulled double coverage while Martin slid underneath uncovered. Nasty route combination had the defenders looking like circus clowns.

Maybe 76 or Dutch can post a gif of the play ..... :texanbill:

76Texan
08-26-2012, 01:12 PM
He was the outside reciever on Martin's TD catch .... pulled double coverage while Martin slid underneath uncovered. Nasty route combination had the defenders looking like circus clowns.

Maybe 76 or Dutch can post a gif of the play ..... :texanbill:

Got to go now.

I can't do vid anyway.

Will look at Walter tonight if I can.

BullNation4Life
08-26-2012, 02:21 PM
Did Kevin Walter even play last night?

Yes. Right after Martin fumbled for the second time....

This is why Walter will be starting over Martin. Kubiak hates, beyond anything, for a running back or WR to put the ball on the ground. Kubiak trust Walter more and should for now. If Martin keeps on doing this, you wont see him on the field no matter how talented he is...

If anything, Jean should be on the outside and Walter in the slot.

Texn4life
08-26-2012, 02:29 PM
Does he just have the one catch from the first game this preseason?

Carr Bombed
08-26-2012, 03:06 PM
Yes. Right after Martin fumbled for the second time....

This is why Walter will be starting over Martin. Kubiak hates, beyond anything, for a running back or WR to put the ball on the ground. Kubiak trust Walter more and should for now. If Martin keeps on doing this, you wont see him on the field no matter how talented he is...

If anything, Jean should be on the outside and Walter in the slot.

I highly doubt Kubiak is going to can Martin, just because of his mistakes last night.. He's a rookie and rookies make mistakes. I was upset when it happened, but after sleeping on it I'm glad it happened. It's a great learning experience and a great teaching opportunity for Kubes. It's better to fumble now during the preseason and make the necessary corrections than to go and have a mistake free preseason and put the ball on the ground during the regular season. One of Kubiak's complements of Martin was how after he makes a mistake they tell him what he did wrong and then he fixes it, so I'm eager to see how he responds.

Anyways I already think the phase out of Walter is underway. Martin and Jean sure have getting a lot of burn with the 1s and I don't think it really matters who starts, because I think both will be on the field plenty.

BullNation4Life
08-26-2012, 03:22 PM
I highly doubt Kubiak is going to can Martin, just because of his mistakes last night.. He's a rookie and rookies make mistakes. I was upset when it happened, but after sleeping on it I'm glad it happened. It's a great learning experience and a great teaching opportunity for Kubes. It's better to fumble now during the preseason and make the necessary corrections than to go and have a mistake free preseason and put the ball on the ground during the regular season. When of Kubiak's complements of Martin was how after he makes a mistake they tell him what he did wrong and then he fixes it, so I'm eager to see how he responds.

Anyways I already think the phase out of Walter is underway. Martin and Jean sure have getting a lot of burn with the 1s and I don't think it really matters who starts, because I think both will be on the field plenty.

Not saying Kubiak will can Martin but if Martin has a problem holding onto the ball, Kubiak will not put him on the field. One of the biggest things for Kubes with his players is trust, he always talked about trusting his players to do what they needed to protect the football.

Remember the runningback a few years ago, think it was Chris Taylor, an how he was suppose to be this next great back in Kubiak system. Everybody wanted to know why he was playing Dayne over Taylor and the main reason was Taylor kept putting the ball on the ground and Kubiak didn't trust him.

Martin better than Walter, clearly, but I think Kubiak will trust Walter more when they play for real, we will see soon enough...

Carr Bombed
08-26-2012, 03:46 PM
Not saying Kubiak will can Martin but if Martin has a problem holding onto the ball, Kubiak will not put him on the field. One of the biggest things for Kubes with his players is trust, he always talked about trusting his players to do what they needed to protect the football.

Remember the runningback a few years ago, think it was Chris Taylor, an how he was suppose to be this next great back in Kubiak system. Everybody wanted to know why he was playing Dayne over Taylor and the main reason was Taylor kept putting the ball on the ground and Kubiak didn't trust him.

Martin better than Walter, clearly, but I think Kubiak will trust Walter more when they play for real, we will see soon enough...

Taylor only fumbled once during his time here and it was recovered by the Texans. I think he got hurt, but that was a long time ago... can't remember.

But yeah.. if this becomes a habit Martin will work his way into Kubiak's dog house, but he's not there yet. Kubiak has already proven with Jones that if you have talent he'll give you multiple chances to figure things out.

eriadoc
08-26-2012, 08:06 PM
I've stated my position on the whole Walter thing, so take it FWIW. But go back and watch Walter on the very first offensive play of the game vs. the Saints and ask yourself if they're going to ask Jean or Martin to do that.

Rey
08-26-2012, 08:18 PM
I've stated my position on the whole Walter thing, so take it FWIW. But go back and watch Walter on the very first offensive play of the game vs. the Saints and ask yourself if they're going to ask Jean or Martin to do that.

I don't have the game. What did he do?

eriadoc
08-26-2012, 08:19 PM
I don't have the game. What did he do?

I don't have the game either, but I remember seeing it real time. He just did his typical motion to the right side of the line and then laid a devastating cut block at the snap.

Texn4life
08-26-2012, 08:27 PM
I don't have the game either, but I remember seeing it real time. He just did his typical motion to the right side of the line and then laid a devastating cut block at the snap.

We use him a lot to do that off of play action. Bryant Johnson did it some too while Andre was out last year. I'm completely fine with KW being in the role he is now. He is not the number 2 receiver as far as receiving options go. I look for both Jean and Martin to get more looks in the passing game this year. As long as that's the case then we'll be fine. He can still play a big role for us, and we know he has the ability to make plays. Gary said today that he's going to rotate the 4 receivers regularly so its going to be important for all of them to come up big for us at certain points. It might be a different guy every game, but when their number is called they need to step up.

eriadoc
08-26-2012, 08:32 PM
We use him a lot to do that off of play action.

Yep. Frankly, I don't want them using Jean or Martin to do that, which means they need a WR on the team who can do it, and he has to be out on the field often enough that it's not a dead giveaway what they're about to do.

Rey
08-26-2012, 08:47 PM
I don't have the game either, but I remember seeing it real time. He just did his typical motion to the right side of the line and then laid a devastating cut block at the snap.

I figured that's what you were talking about but didn't want to speculate as I hadn't seen the play.

But if I'm understanding you right, the team did in fact ask Martin to do the same thing (motion to a wing position or to the te's hip pocket and cut the backside Olb or de). I specifically remember him doing that later in the game.

Was it as devastating a block as Walters? Probably not, but it was effective.

The wr I don't think they're going to ask to do that is Andre.

steelbtexan
08-26-2012, 09:04 PM
I appreciate Walters' contributions.

However Jean should get more PT.

How many plays did Walter make last yr ? Excluding Cincy, a play which will forever live in my memory.

eriadoc
08-26-2012, 09:16 PM
I appreciate Walters' contributions.

However Jean should get more PT.

That's where I am. When I see Jean catch a ball, a small part of me is reminded of AJ. I think the guy has a chance to be the Rod Smith of the Texans, if he keeps at it. I like Martin for an entirely different role; one that the Texans have never really had. He's going to be good as well.

Rey
08-26-2012, 09:34 PM
That's where I am. When I see Jean catch a ball, a small part of me is reminded of AJ. I think the guy has a chance to be the Rod Smith of the Texans, if he keeps at it. I like Martin for an entirely different role; one that the Texans have never really had. He's going to be good as well.


I've said this before, but I want to see a healthy rotation if the young guys can handle it.

I want Aj to get more rest than he has in the past and I want all if them to stay fresh.

Walter doesn't suck. He just is not a wr that you can line up outside all game long and expect elite production.

I'd love to see Aj and Jean primarily be the outside recorders with Martin and Walter specializing in the slot.

Walter and Martin are different as can be, but both have valuable skills that can be utilized in the slot.

Martin has the speed and quickness. Precise movements. Can go up the seam and make plays or run short routes for completions.

Walter is a big bodied sure handed guy that should excel in shielding off smaller nickel corners for short quick completions and is tough enough to deal with lb's at the LOS. His blocking skills could also shine there almost being like a hybrid wr/h back type of player.

Walter has a role on this team. What I disagree on is that his role is best suited for getting most of his time as #2 wr opposite andre.

Corrosion
08-26-2012, 09:36 PM
I appreciate Walters' contributions.

However Jean should get more PT.

How many plays did Walter make last yr ? Excluding Cincy, a play which will forever live in my memory.

Jean is going to be hard as hell to ignore when it comes to playing time ... He gets open , he makes tough catches. He may displace Walter sooner than later .... like before the quarter pole of the season if he keeps playing at this level.


Walter does a lot of dirty work .... but you just cant ignore the production from Jean.
AJ , Jean and Martin is a pretty dynamic trio especially when you consider Walter , OD , Graham , Casey , Foster and Tate as weapons - Schaub's loaded with any five of those guy's on the field at the same time. Thats a nightmare for defenses ....
If Schaub stays healthy all season , I expect this to be one of the top five offenses in the league (they'll get plenty of opportunities with that defense too).

EllisUnit
08-26-2012, 10:25 PM
Jean is going to be hard as hell to ignore when it comes to playing time ... He gets open , he makes tough catches. He may displace Walter sooner than later .... like before the quarter pole of the season if he keeps playing at this level.


Walter does a lot of dirty work .... but you just cant ignore the production from Jean.
AJ , Jean and Martin is a pretty dynamic trio especially when you consider Walter , OD , Graham , Casey , Foster and Tate as weapons - Schaub's loaded with any five of those guy's on the field at the same time. Thats a nightmare for defenses ....
If Schaub stays healthy all season , I expect this to be one of the top five offenses in the league (they'll get plenty of opportunities with that defense too).

WOW

Schaub
Foster
Casey at FB
Daniels
AJ # 1
Jean # 2
Martin # 3

All on the field at the same time, so many ways to beat teams. This could be the best most talented group we have EVER fielded. Sucks so much part of the success of these guys rests on the right side of the line which is "to put it lightly" Looking less than stellar thus far.

But other than that this team has all the potential in the world to make it to the big game in New Orleans.

The Pencil Neck
08-26-2012, 10:25 PM
Did Kevin Walter even play last night?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wAxDMfEGhoY/TLOVnpZzzoI/AAAAAAAAAVE/JSuh_GX59Ks/s1600/Not+Sure+if+serious.jpg

Yeah. He was out there for most of the first half.

michaelm
08-26-2012, 11:28 PM
WOW

Schaub
Foster
Casey at FB
Daniels
AJ # 1
Jean # 2
Martin # 3

All on the field at the same time, so many ways to beat teams. This could be the best most talented group we have EVER fielded. Sucks so much part of the success of these guys rests on the right side of the line which is "to put it lightly" Looking less than stellar thus far.

But other than that this team has all the potential in the world to make it to the big game in New Orleans.

I guess we would have so many ways to beat teams if the replacement refs miss the 12 men on the field... :kitten:

76Texan
08-27-2012, 12:34 AM
I figured that's what you were talking about but didn't want to speculate as I hadn't seen the play.

But if I'm understanding you right, the team did in fact ask Martin to do the same thing (motion to a wing position or to the te's hip pocket and cut the backside Olb or de). I specifically remember him doing that later in the game.

Was it as devastating a block as Walters? Probably not, but it was effective.

The wr I don't think they're going to ask to do that is Andre.

When the back side DE was 8-10 yards away from Schaub when he set up to make the throw on a bootleg, I would call it a devastating block.

We have gone through this quite extensively.

The combination of everything that Walter has been doing for the Texans is not replaceable at the moment.

Like I said, he's a mid 4.4 guy that can run good route.
He cannot be left in man too often.
I've rewatched some 9 games from last year with the all-22 view.
If Schaub had only look at Walter more often, his stats would have been completely different.

As far as speed is concern, I remember talking about Walter in the two-man route portion last off-season.
Schaub was late and short on a throw such that Walter had to slow down and came to an almost complete stop to catch that ball on the post route.
The CB had just enough time to come back to commit a PI to prevent Walter to take it to the house.
It was a 43-47-yd pass interference call (I don't remember exactly the distance, but I can look it up.)
And obviously, it was not in the book as a catch, nor a TD.

eriadoc
08-27-2012, 12:40 AM
I've rewatched some 9 games from last year with the all-22 view.
If Schaub had only look at Walter more often, his stats would have been completely different.

See, that's pretty much /thread for me, guys. You can come with all the opinions you want, but this man has watched the film. When a Walter hater (not saying we have many, but a couple) watches the film and wants to compare notes, then I'll tune back in with great interest. Until then, your opinion is just as ill informed as mine. Except I admit my opinion is ill informed.

I'd rep you 76, but I'm slack in spreading it around recently.

76Texan
08-27-2012, 12:53 AM
See, that's pretty much /thread for me, guys. You can come with all the opinions you want, but this man has watched the film. When a Walter hater (not saying we have many, but a couple) watches the film and wants to compare notes, then I'll tune back in with great interest. Until then, your opinion is just as ill informed as mine. Except I admit my opinion is ill informed.

I'd rep you 76, but I'm slack in spreading it around recently.

Thanks mostly for the part that says we love the game and like to learn the depth of it (as much as we can).

BTW, there was also the end zone view, a regular broadcast view, and a condensed view (play only, no commercial or anything else).

On top of that, I occasionally get a different version of the game.
The Niners game for example have slightly different camera angles.
The TV crews from the two opposite teams are located in different spots (for both the side view and the occasional end zone view).

Occasionally, I also have the replay version that included a few comments from the coaches on a play here and there.
One can learn a little here and there.

wolf123
08-27-2012, 01:26 AM
When the back side DE was 8-10 yards away from Schaub when he set up to make the throw on a bootleg, I would call it a devastating block.

We have gone through this quite extensively.

The combination of everything that Walter has been doing for the Texans is not replaceable at the moment.

Like I said, he's a mid 4.4 guy that can run good route.
He cannot be left in man too often.
I've rewatched some 9 games from last year with the all-22 view.
If Schaub had only look at Walter more often, his stats would have been completely different.

As far as speed is concern, I remember talking about Walter in the two-man route portion last off-season.
Schaub was late and short on a throw such that Walter had to slow down and came to an almost complete stop to catch that ball on the post route.
The CB had just enough time to come back to commit a PI to prevent Walter to take it to the house.
It was a 43-47-yd pass interference call (I don't remember exactly the distance, but I can look it up.)
And obviously, it was not in the book as a catch, nor a TD.

Walter 4.4 speed? Not even close...

Texn4life
08-27-2012, 01:39 AM
Walter 4.4 speed? Not even close...

That one struck me as maybe a little off as well, but I couldn't find an official 40 time. Even if he was timed at a 4.4 coming out of college, at his age I doubt he still runs that. He's fast enough though which is just fine with me.

76Texan
08-27-2012, 01:44 AM
Walter 4.4 speed? Not even close...
MID 4.4; not 4.4 on the dot.

OK, so some of us are in constant draft mode and can only recount the numbers from either the combine or their pro day.

http://40-yard-dash-times.com/kevin-walter-40-yard-dash-time.html

http://40-yard-dash-times.com/houston-texans-2009.html (http://40-yard-dash-times.com/houston-texans-2008.html)

As time goes by, I have no idea where he is at.
But then again, it doesn't seem like AJ has lost much.

A mid 4.4 (ie. 4.45) is nothing in the NFL anyway.

76Texan
08-27-2012, 01:57 AM
As a draft guy, I must note that I don't "believe" in all the combine or pro day numbers (especially the pro days).

The tracks are not always the same.
The wind factor, the gears, etc.

The main idea is that you have to look at how fast the guy run a certain route on the actual playing field.

Walter is neither fast nor slow.
But he's fast enough to burn a DB (who may have some cushion on him) due to his good route running.

That two-man route example I had in screen shots was a good example.
I don't know if it's still there at photobucket; I haven't post anything there for a long time.

Texn4life
08-27-2012, 01:58 AM
A mid 4.4 (ie. 4.45) is nothing in the NFL anyway.

I would argue otherwise. A guy with Kevin's size running a 4.45 is impressive. The first link says it was at his pro day which can always be a little off sometimes depending on the elements. But I really don't care though about his 40 time. They're completely overrated. The point is he does fit in this offense and at some point he's going to make plays for us. I like what Kubiak has showed on offense thus far with utilizing our young kids and bringing in fresh talent so Walter isn't the main focus as a #2.

Texn4life
08-27-2012, 02:01 AM
As a draft guy, I must note that I don't "believe" in all the combine or pro day numbers (especially the pro days).

The tracks are not always the same.
The wind factor, the gears, etc.


It's almost like you were in my head.

EllisUnit
08-27-2012, 03:59 AM
I guess we would have so many ways to beat teams if the replacement refs miss the 12 men on the field... :kitten:

haha dont mean all at the same time, just showing our versatility as far as weapons haha

Rey
08-27-2012, 07:08 AM
See, that's pretty much /thread for me, guys. You can come with all the opinions you want, but this man has watched the film. When a Walter hater (not saying we have many, but a couple) watches the film and wants to compare notes, then I'll tune back in with great interest. Until then, your opinion is just as ill informed as mine. Except I admit my opinion is ill informed.

I'd rep you 76, but I'm slack in spreading it around recently.

I don't buy what 76 is selling. If you choose to, that's your prerogative.

With Yates or schaub at qb, Walter has taken a step back receiving wise. This isn't just a one year occurrence.

Sorry, but I don't think schaub is the type of qb or kubiak is the type of coach that would have a guy getting open all the time and not feeding him.

And which is it...is Walter getting open all the time or is he pulling coverage and drawing double or triple teams all the time?

Walter is not a bad player, but he is not the guy to be a full time starter. Not if you want your offense to reach it's maximum potential.

eriadoc
08-27-2012, 08:30 AM
I don't buy what 76 is selling. If you choose to, that's your prerogative.

So watch the All-22 and come with something specific. Because so far, he's the only one in here selling anything of substance. Everyone else (myself included) is selling speculation and conjecture based on things they haven't been able to see before this year, because the TV feed doesn't show it all. I'm not saying 76Texan can't be wrong, but I'd like to see All-22 compared between him and someone who is trying to refute what he's saying, instead of what I've seen so far.

HJam72
08-27-2012, 08:42 AM
I don't buy what 76 is selling. If you choose to, that's your prerogative.

With Yates or schaub at qb, Walter has taken a step back receiving wise. This isn't just a one year occurrence.

Sorry, but I don't think schaub is the type of qb or kubiak is the type of coach that would have a guy getting open all the time and not feeding him.

And which is it...is Walter getting open all the time or is he pulling coverage and drawing double or triple teams all the time?

Walter is not a bad player, but he is not the guy to be a full time starter. Not if you want your offense to reach it's maximum potential.

I know this much: he's not drawing triple teams "all the time" or even very often--not when A.J. is on the field or A.J. (or a TE) really would be putting up Jerry Rice numbers.

Bulls on Parade
08-27-2012, 09:16 AM
Did Kevin Walter play against the Saints? That's a very good question because I didn't even hear his name mentioned even one time. Did he register a catch at all? Looking at the box score I see 11 total guys catching a pass but none of them are Walter. Hmm, very odd for a guy who should be open a lot of times.

Grams
08-27-2012, 09:31 AM
Did Kevin Walter play against the Saints? That's a very good question because I didn't even hear his name mentioned even one time. Did he register a catch at all? Looking at the box score I see 11 total guys catching a pass but none of them are Walter. Hmm, very odd for a guy who should be open a lot of times.

Yes, he was out there - at least once that I saw. But no catches or thrown to that I remember.

BigBull17
08-27-2012, 10:12 AM
Im tired of hearing about Kevin Walter's run blocking.. if this is the case let's just line a FB out wide.

His primary job is to catch footballs and make plays... so how many catches does he have this preseason? Fact is, he's being out played by two young bucks.. young bucks who are much better playmakers and much more explosive. Also from what I've seen so far, it looks like they know where to be as well.. it's not like they need a map in order to line up.

This offense needs more players who can score from anywhere on the field. Where we don't have to rely on stringing together a bunch of plays. Walter is not that guy.

Not really in our offense. His job is to do the little things and maybe catch a ball a game. Kubiak loves him so he will be here this year. Not saying im in love with the idea, just stating how they feel about him.

HOU-TEX
08-27-2012, 10:17 AM
He had a very good block on Foster's TD run. Just throwing it out there

The Pencil Neck
08-27-2012, 10:46 AM
Did Kevin Walter play against the Saints? That's a very good question because I didn't even hear his name mentioned even one time. Did he register a catch at all? Looking at the box score I see 11 total guys catching a pass but none of them are Walter. Hmm, very odd for a guy who should be open a lot of times.

He was out there with the first team almost the entire first half. He came off for a few plays here and there.

He did not make a catch. But he did draw coverage and allow other people to be open and he did block. I don't recall him being targeted at all.

A lot of this offense isn't based on who's open but on who's supposed to be open. That's dictated by Schaub's reading of the defense.

KW has his role on this team. But by mid-season, I don't expect him to be the #2 anymore. And like last year, I don't expect him to end up with the second most catches... I don't expect him to finish in the top 4 in terms of receiving on this team this year.

Carr Bombed
08-27-2012, 10:51 AM
So watch the All-22 and come with something specific. Because so far, he's the only one in here selling anything of substance. Everyone else (myself included) is selling speculation and conjecture based on things they haven't been able to see before this year, because the TV feed doesn't show it all. I'm not saying 76Texan can't be wrong, but I'd like to see All-22 compared between him and someone who is trying to refute what he's saying, instead of what I've seen so far.

Nope, not doing it. You shouldn't be required to go pay for a service and waste valuable time breaking down every single play just for people to listen to a opinion around here. That's rediculous.. I'll do something like that only if I'm getting compensated to do so.

Watchng all-22 isn't going to change anything around here.. you'll still have two different people watchng the same thing and forming two completely different opinions.. it'll just be with a different medium.

Carr Bombed
08-27-2012, 11:08 AM
Not really in our offense. His job is to do the little things and maybe catch a ball a game. Kubiak loves him so he will be here this year. Not saying im in love with the idea, just stating how they feel about him.

He is a WR.. #1 duty listed on his job description should be the ability to get seperation and consistently be a available target. If all he's able to do is block down on someone then he needs a much smaller role in the offense ( which I'm sure he'll be getting this season).

With a healthy Andre you can get away with Walter's deficiencies in the passing game, but when 80 went down they became a liability.. one of the reasons why WR was one of the top priorities this offseason.

eriadoc
08-27-2012, 11:09 AM
Nope, not doing it. You shouldn't be required to go pay for a service and waste valuable time breaking down every single play just for people to listen to a opinion around here.

I listened to your opinion. So did everyone else. We also listened when you said you weren't changing your opinion no matter what. At the end of the day, I hear your opinion and everyone else's, but if I'm weighing them, I'm giving more credence to the guy who's actually watched what's going on vs. the guy sitting around saying he didn't see Walter doing anything. That's all.

thunderkyss
08-27-2012, 11:11 AM
See, that's pretty much /thread for me, guys. You can come with all the opinions you want, but this man has watched the film.

Last year's Oakland Game, Shaub targeted Jacoby 11 times, not one catch.

He targeted Walter..... 0 times. We lost that game. If KW was getting open & it would have helped us win the game, I'm sure Schaub would have found a way to at least throw the ball his way.

Unless now we're saying Schaub should be replaced.

eriadoc
08-27-2012, 11:14 AM
Last year's Oakland Game, Shaub targeted Jacoby 11 times, not one catch.

He targeted Walter..... 0 times. We lost that game. If KW was getting open & it would have helped us win the game, I'm sure Schaub would have found a way to at least throw the ball his way.

Unless now we're saying Schaub should be replaced.

You're sure? We have a guy in the thread who has watched 9 games from last year on the All-22 and said Walter was open, and you're sure?

thunderkyss
08-27-2012, 11:18 AM
You're sure? We have a guy in the thread who has watched 9 games from last year on the All-22 and said Walter was open, and you're sure?

Are you saying we need to replace Schaub? Because I can find 72,000 fans who knew Jacoby wasn't going to catch those 11 passes. If nothing else, he should have figured it out after the third one... & hit the open KW.........


just saying.

Rey
08-27-2012, 11:25 AM
Are you saying we need to replace Schaub? Because I can find 72,000 fans who knew Jacoby wasn't going to catch those 11 passes. If nothing else, he should have figured it out after the third one... & hit the open KW.........


just saying.

haha:spin:

C'mon Eriadoc....

You have to admit, that's pretty funny...

Carr Bombed
08-27-2012, 11:30 AM
I listened to your opinion. So did everyone else. We also listened when you said you weren't changing your opinion no matter what. At the end of the day, I hear your opinion and everyone else's, but if I'm weighing them, I'm giving more credence to the guy who's actually watched what's going on vs. the guy sitting around saying he didn't see Walter doing anything. That's all.

:rolleyes: So thanks to "all-22" we've now formed a elitist group who's "opinion matters more"... that's if you feel like paying more and have a crap load of time to waste. Gotcha.

You keep listening to excuses why Walter is effective soley on him being the greatest blocker to ever walk the earth and I'll just sit here and wait for somebody who can raise the production level at that position.

eriadoc
08-27-2012, 11:38 AM
Are you saying we need to replace Schaub?

Not saying that at all, and I don't think one has to do with the other. One thing I've been saying all thread long is we don't really know what the design or intent is of any given play. Now that the All-22 is available, we can learn a couple things, such as what the routes are and who is open. But we still can't know why Walter wasn't targeted. If you want to pin that on Schaub, go for it. I'm not there. I just know that we have two pieces of information right now - Walter was open a lot more than we realized and yet he wasn't targeted. Reconcile that how you will.

If you think 76Texan is lying about Walter being open, then report back with your All-22 analysis. I may be getting it myself in the next week or two, so I plan to spend a little time going over last season's games.

eriadoc
08-27-2012, 11:42 AM
:rolleyes: So thanks to "all-22" we've now formed a elitist group who's "opinion matters more"... that's if you feel like paying more and have a crap load of time to waste. Gotcha.

You keep listening to excuses why Walter is effective soley on him being the greatest blocker to ever walk the earth and I'll just sit here and wait for somebody who can raise the production level at that position.

You're still sticking with the faulty assumption that you started with. Walter is producing the way they want him to. It's not the production you want, and as I have repeatedly said, I want a WR who makes plays int he receiving game. The difference between you and me in this regard is I am just trying to understand what the heck the team is doing with Walter and how that may or may not translate to incoming young WRs. You're just doggedly stuck on this notion that the #2 WR should have 800-1000 yards receiving and the player is a failure if he doesn't deliver that. I don't think that's the role that's been laid out for him, and it would appear that the film at least bolsters that assertion.

You have nothing bolstering your assertion besides stats, which are simply a byproduct of the coaches' role for Walter.

thunderkyss
08-27-2012, 11:44 AM
Not saying that at all, and I don't think one has to do with the other. One thing I've been saying all thread long is we don't really know what the design or intent is of any given play.

I think they are both related. The Oakland game was real. We should have wanted to win. Schaub should be looking for the open receiver.

If you think 76Texan is lying about Walter being open, then report back with your All-22 analysis. I may be getting it myself in the next week or two, so I plan to spend a little time going over last season's games.

I don't think he's lying at all.... but maybe his idea of open isn't the same as Schaub's idea of open & his is the one that counts. Besides, 76 may not be able to post video, but he's mastered the art of the screen shot & has the photobucket account to prove it.

eriadoc
08-27-2012, 11:49 AM
haha:spin:

C'mon Eriadoc....

You have to admit, that's pretty funny...

As a long time Jacoby hater and early member of the hater club, I do find it funny LOL. And I admit to being as perplexed as y'all on why the hell Schaub would ever target that crappy ass WR, but then I repeatedly questioned why Kubiak kept putting him out there in the Ravens game too. Players and coaches do stuff that we fans think are stupid sometimes. *shrug*

eriadoc
08-27-2012, 11:51 AM
I don't think he's lying at all.... but maybe his idea of open isn't the same as Schaub's idea of open....

Well, I don't want this thread to devolve into a definition of what constitutes "open" int he NFL, but I think we can all agree that a step is all you need sometimes.

GP
08-27-2012, 11:54 AM
Nope, not doing it. You shouldn't be required to go pay for a service and waste valuable time breaking down every single play just for people to listen to a opinion around here. That's rediculous.. I'll do something like that only if I'm getting compensated to do so.

Watchng all-22 isn't going to change anything around here.. you'll still have two different people watchng the same thing and forming two completely different opinions.. it'll just be with a different medium.

This ^^^^^.

/Debate.

Carr Bombed
08-27-2012, 12:05 PM
You're still sticking with the faulty assumption that you started with. Walter is producing the way they want him to. It's not the production you want, and as I have repeatedly said, I want a WR who makes plays int he receiving game. The difference between you and me in this regard is I am just trying to understand what the heck the team is doing with Walter and how that may or may not translate to incoming young WRs. You're just doggedly stuck on this notion that the #2 WR should have 800-1000 yards receiving and the player is a failure if he doesn't deliver that. I don't think that's the role that's been laid out for him, and it would appear that the film at least bolsters that assertion.

You have nothing bolstering your assertion besides stats, which are simply a byproduct of the coaches' role for Walter.

How the hell is my "assumption" faulty, but yours is not? First of all you're sitting there assuming "Walter is producing the only way they want him to" and they don't expect more production from that position. Did Kubes tell you that? Or did 76 get to sit in during a meeting and then phone you up? Your opinion is no less of a assumption as mine. WRs who do everything the coach expects from them to don't get asked to take a cut in pay..

As far as these 800-1000 WRs you keep saying I'm hung up on, Walter used to be one. I guess more was expected then huh? When Walter was producing up to that standard I didn't have a problem with him. When he couldn't even break the 500 mark with Andre out and with Jones on the team I did.. because it became blatantly obvious how badly we needed to upgrade the position. If you and others want to bury your head and act like it's not possible to greatly upgrade the position.. then do so, but don't get mad when others feel like we can or feel that Walter isn't irreplaceable.

eriadoc
08-27-2012, 12:22 PM
How the hell is my "assumption" faulty, but yours is not? First of all you're sitting there assuming "Walter is producing the only way they want him to" and they don't expect more production from that position.

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time following the conversation. To make it easy for you, I'll just quote myself from a few different posts.

Except I admit my opinion is ill informed.

Everyone else (myself included) is selling speculation and conjecture based on things they haven't been able to see before this year, because the TV feed doesn't show it all.

One thing I've been saying all thread long is we don't really know what the design or intent is of any given play. Now that the All-22 is available, we can learn a couple things ...

The difference between you and me in this regard is I am just trying to understand what the heck the team is doing with Walter and how that may or may not translate to incoming young WRs.

Maybe it would work better in another language? I aim to accommodate. As for the greatly upgrade comment, I have made it abundantly clear that I too want to see that, and Lestar Jean is the guy I have targeted to fill that role. This really shouldn't be all that difficult to understand.

Carr Bombed
08-27-2012, 12:28 PM
Another thing I don't understand about this whole "he's doing what's expected of him" argument..

I'll go ahead and assume he's doing that.. However how does that prove that the Texans wouldn't like more from that position? Chuck Hayes was one of my favorite Rockets and he also did everything that was expected of him, because like Walter he was also limited. They certainly didn't expect him to lead the team in paint points or blocks.. but that doesn't mean they were content or weren't looking for a upgrade. Walter is the same way. He's doing everything they expect out of him most likely, because that's all they think he can do. He's being put in a role that he can contribute in, because if they tried to give him a bigger role he most likely wouldn't succeed.

eriadoc
08-27-2012, 12:32 PM
Another thing I don't understand about this whole "he's doing what's expected of him" argument..

I'll go ahead and assume he's doing that.. However how does that prove that the Texans wouldn't like more from that position? Chuck Hayes was one of my favorite Rockets and he also did everything that was expected of him, because like Walter he was also limited. They certainly didn't expect him to lead the team in paint points or blocks.. but that doesn't mean they were content or weren't looking for a upgrade. Walter is the same way. He's doing everything they expect out of him most likely, because that's all they think he can do.

That's possible. Hell, I'll even go with probable. But that doesn't answer the two questions I keep asking:

1.) If he's been open, as has been reported by 76Texan, why are they not targeting him more often?

2.) If this is the role they envision for the #2 WR, even to a somewhat lesser degree, do we see Jean and/or Martin doing those sorts of things?

See, you've basically decided, based on nothing. I'm still trying to understand, based on what used to be nothing, but now is actual game tape. That's really our only divide. The results may temper my expectations, or they may bolster my suspicion that Walter is just not getting the job done.

Rey
08-27-2012, 01:34 PM
That's possible. Hell, I'll even go with probable. But that doesn't answer the two questions I keep asking:

1.) If he's been open, as has been reported by 76Texan, why are they not targeting him more often?

2.) If this is the role they envision for the #2 WR, even to a somewhat lesser degree, do we see Jean and/or Martin doing those sorts of things?

See, you've basically decided, based on nothing. I'm still trying to understand, based on what used to be nothing, but now is actual game tape. That's really our only divide. The results may temper my expectations, or they may bolster my suspicion that Walter is just not getting the job done.

The "this is what the texans want from a number two" thing is a fallacy. It's a fairytale made up to justify Kevin Walter's diminishing returns in this offense.

Kevin Walter used to catch a lot of passes for a lot of yards. Did their philosophy change or has Kevin Walter just not been as good as he had been?

When kubiak first got here he went out and got Eric moulds for the number two role. Was he supposed to be the "blocking wr"?

If you are going to start Kevin Walter and not expect or even want him to catch passed when he is "consistently getting open", why are you drafting two young wr's to pair up with a promising young player in Jean?

Why would you ask a player to take a pay cut that is doing everything you want them to?

I've heard all kind if stories to explain this, but what I find most likely is that he has not been as good as he used to be and therefore they reduced his salary.


Geez...you guys make Walter sound like one if the best wr's in the game...great hands, runs great routes, "mid 4.4 speed", gets open all the time AND draws triple teams to get other guys open....plus he blocks like a TE an knows exactly what to do and where to be....

Are we talking about kw or someone I created on madden?? Screw Kevin. From now on he is Super Walter. Super Walter to the rescue.

He does all that and yet his salary was reduced.

I can see it now: "hey super...we know you are doing everything we want you do do, you're one of the hardest workers we have, you are filling your role EXACTLY how we envisioned......but we're going to have to dock your pay. We realize there are other guys that don't work as hard and aren't filling their roles like you, but since we know you aren't spiteful and envious we will dock your pay instead of theirs....deal?"

So on top of bring fast, strong, fundamentally sound, hard working, able to get open a bunch and draw double and Tripple teams hes also enough of a team player to take a pay cut so some other not as deserving player can keep their salary.

Super Walter to the f'n rescue.

eriadoc
08-27-2012, 01:40 PM
Geez...you guys make Walter sound like one if the best wr's in the game...great hands, runs great routes, "mid 4.4 speed", gets open all the time AND draws triple teams to get other guys open....plus he blocks like a TE an knows exactly what to do and where to be....

Are we talking about kw or someone I created on madden??

I think I've made it clear that I don't think that.

Answer question #1 from the post above, please.

Corrosion
08-27-2012, 01:40 PM
76 or Dutch ... can you post the wide view of Martin's TD catch against the Aints ?

Rey
08-27-2012, 01:44 PM
I think I've made it clear that I don't think that.

Answer question #1 from the post above, please.

How about he's not getting open as much as 76 has led you to believe????

Seriously?

We have a guy that is consistently getting open and we make a conscious decision not to throw him the ball?

How about, no.


That makes absolutely no sense.

First, it was he's not getting open because that's not his role.

Now, he actually does get open a bunch but schaub and kubiak don't care. They are not going to throw the ball to him and instead settle for punts, field goals and whatever else they can scrounge up.

eriadoc
08-27-2012, 02:17 PM
How about he's not getting open as much as 76 has led you to believe????

OK, so you think 76Texan is not telling the truth. Fair enough. I want to see someone like you, who holds that belief, post some evidence from the All-22. That's pretty much what I've been saying for a while now.

First, it was he's not getting open because that's not his role.


And that was, as I have made abundantly clear, speculation and conjecture based on basically nothing. NOW THAT WE HAVE SOMEONE POSTING FEEDBACK FROM THE ALL-22, it seems that the evidence has changed. Unlike some of the posters here, my opinions change with evidence. All I'm really asking for is some evidence to support your assertion so that I can continue to shape my opinion.

Sheesh, you wouldn't think getting your point across would be this difficult. As I said earlier, I plan on getting the All-22 soon, so I'll be going through some games as well.

76Texan
08-27-2012, 02:29 PM
How about he's not getting open as much as 76 has led you to believe????

Seriously?

We have a guy that is consistently getting open and we make a conscious decision not to throw him the ball?

How about, no.


That makes absolutely no sense.

First, it was he's not getting open because that's not his role.

Now, he actually does get open a bunch but schaub and kubiak don't care. They are not going to throw the ball to him and instead settle for punts, field goals and whatever else they can scrounge up.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/footb...ers/56671564/1

"If you ask anyone in our locker room who's the most underrated player, the most important player or the unsung hero of our team, it's Kevin," Texans quarterback Matt Schaub said. "Every time, hands down. No question."


While the statistics might ebb in one direction or the other, to Schaub they represent balance.
"We have a ton of weapons, and I don't think people really see that," he said. "They see a passing game, not an offense. They don't see the total package.

Rey
08-27-2012, 02:33 PM
OK, so you think 76Texan is not telling the truth.

No, I didn't say that.


This is almost like someone telling me they saw a flying pig...they say that they actually saw it...with their own two eyes

Maybe you really think you saw a pig flying...But I don't have to see what you saw to conclude that a pig didn't fly.

76Texan
08-27-2012, 02:35 PM
76 or Dutch ... can you post the wide view of Martin's TD catch against the Aints ?

Maybe Dutch can do it.

Walter was in the right slot and Martin was wide right.

Martin ran a quick slant in.

Walter ran a quick out and pick-off the LCB.
This springs KMart free to make the catch.

Why not the role reversal?
You will have to ask Kubiak.

Personally, I'm thinking, anybody - even a rookie - can run a quick slant and catch the easy pass when he's wide open.

It takes an experience WR to run the pick as not to be called Offensive PI.