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View Full Version : Thoughts on Conner Barwin being expendable?


drs23
08-16-2012, 05:14 PM
An excerpt from a piece by Rivers McCown on BRB that I found both interesting and intriguing.

What says the general wisdom here?

The Texans have a first-round replacement lined up for Barwin's departure

This has colored my thinking on the subject more than anything else. Pass rush is vitally important in the NFL, but even still, you don't see many players get drafted in the first-round primarily for their ability in sub packages. Perhaps the Texans have Brooks Reed as a disappointment in their own book and are planning for Whitney Mercilus to usurp snaps from him, but I think Occam's Razor looks at the Mercilus selection, notes that Barwin is on the last year of his deal, and draws the conclusion that Mercilus is either leverage or the long-term replacement.

The Texans have definitely worked very hard to develop quality depth, and it has showed, but between Mercilus and the preseason/blowout contributions of Bryan Braman, I think you can argue that they are deepest at outside linebacker. This lowers Barwin's relative value to the team, and gives the Texans, in my mind, more of a reason to value someone like Quin over Barwin.

Read the rest here. (http://www.battleredblog.com/2012/8/16/3244754/connor-barwin-is-an-extension-buying-low-or-selling-high)

Dutchrudder
08-16-2012, 05:24 PM
Well, according to John Clayton, the Texans will have about 24 million in capspace next year. Now that Brown has signed for just under 9 million a year, we should have around 15 million to use before cutting any vets like Antonio, Walter or OD. To me, that's not enough to keep both Schaub and Barwin, so it will be a choice between the two. I think Schaub is more important to the team's success, so I think he will be the one staying.

Assuming Barwin has a good year and gets 10 or so sacks, he will likely get a hefty deal on the free agent market. The Texans will be fine though, thanks to the Seahawks taking Bruce Irvin. If Irvin hadn't been picked by them in the 1st, we probably wouldn't have had a shot to get Mercilus at 26. Come to think of it, we should probably send Pete Carroll a nice gift basket or something...

SteveSlaton20
08-16-2012, 05:32 PM
I think $15M will be plenty. I don't think Schaub will get any more than $6-7M a year, especially with his history.

Wolf6151
08-16-2012, 05:32 PM
I really like Connor Barwin and very much want him to sign an extension with the Texans but it has to be at a reasonable price for the position like we got with Brown. We have leverage with Barwin due the depth we've developed at the OLB position over the last couple years. I think he signs a reasonable contract that's good for both parties, I don't see Barwin as the me first type of player that tries to squeeze every nickle out of a team. I'm quickly gaining some confidence in Rick Smith, props to him for a job well done on the Brown deal.

Playoffs
08-16-2012, 05:34 PM
I disagree with the SBNation writer. Braman is not on the level of a Reed or a Barwin. We need a quality backup like Mercilus in the rotation as our guys can get gassed going 100mph all the time, and in case of injury. Barwin is a must sign player, imo, unless he chooses to test the market and some team drops a Mario deal on him.

Texecutioner
08-16-2012, 05:35 PM
Nah, I want Barwin. Pay that guy as long as it isn't out of this world.

I'd definitely pay Barwin a lot more than what I would have ever paid Mario. Not saying that Barwin deserves the money that Mario just got, but I think he is a more effective player that will continue to work harder to get better and better. You can't have enough pass rushers.

Tailgate
08-16-2012, 05:38 PM
Have to play this yr out and see how Whitney does first to answer that one.

badboy
08-16-2012, 05:47 PM
Well, according to John Clayton, the Texans will have about 24 million in capspace next year. Now that Brown has signed for just under 9 million a year, we should have around 15 million to use before cutting any vets like Antonio, Walter or OD. To me, that's not enough to keep both Schaub and Barwin, so it will be a choice between the two. I think Schaub is more important to the team's success, so I think he will be the one staying.

Assuming Barwin has a good year and gets 10 or so sacks, he will likely get a hefty deal on the free agent market. The Texans will be fine though, thanks to the Seahawks taking Bruce Irvin. If Irvin hadn't been picked by them in the 1st, we probably wouldn't have had a shot to get Mercilus at 26. Come to think of it, we should probably send Pete Carroll a nice gift basket or something...I'm think $15m can get both Schaub and Barwin if Barwin signs now. Big risk if he gets hurt or has an off season. Grab a good deal now that is team friendly. He knows Mercilus is sitting in background, chomping at the bit and earning praise every game. Mattis odd duck out due to health and Smith waiting until end of season. Unless Matt take them to SB & has a very good season, Yates may look like a better option. tick tick tick

The Pencil Neck
08-16-2012, 05:55 PM
Guys like Kuharsky are saying that we played Brooks/Barwin too much last year and got lucky and that we really need a rotation and that's why Mercilus is so important but...

We did fine with those two guys and with Braman and Nading coming off the bench. If Mercilus steps up, I don't see why Barwin wouldn't be expendable. Especially if he's looking at getting a bigger paycheck than we can give him.

I'd love to wrap him up for a few more years, though.

76Texan
08-16-2012, 05:56 PM
Well, according to John Clayton, the Texans will have about 24 million in capspace next year. Now that Brown has signed for just under 9 million a year, we should have around 15 million to use before cutting any vets like Antonio, Walter or OD. To me, that's not enough to keep both Schaub and Barwin, so it will be a choice between the two. I think Schaub is more important to the team's success, so I think he will be the one staying.

Assuming Barwin has a good year and gets 10 or so sacks, he will likely get a hefty deal on the free agent market. The Texans will be fine though, thanks to the Seahawks taking Bruce Irvin. If Irvin hadn't been picked by them in the 1st, we probably wouldn't have had a shot to get Mercilus at 26. Come to think of it, we should probably send Pete Carroll a nice gift basket or something...

I think Clayton's numbers are not up-to-date.

What do you make from these Spotrac numbers?

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/cap-hit/

Note that the new contract for Brown is not reflected in those figures.

It looks like we don't have any cap space for 2013.

Playoffs
08-16-2012, 06:04 PM
And if I may add...

This flat cap until 2015 stuff sucks. :foottap:

Dutchrudder
08-16-2012, 06:09 PM
I think Clayton's numbers are not up-to-date.

What do you make from these Spotrac numbers?

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/cap-hit/

Note that the new contract for Brown is not reflected in those figures.

It looks like we don't have any cap space for 2013.

Well the most obvious error I see in that list is that they don't account for minimum vet deals only counting 540k against the cap. They are also counting about 25 UDFA and minimum deals against that number that won't be on the team come September. Most, if not all, of those deals are not guaranteed, so that's a lot of money off the cap. If their average salary is 500k (low estimate), then that's about 12.5 million in savings once we go to a roster of 53.

I'm not quite sure about the individual numbers, but we'll see. Schaub's 8-10 million will be coming off the books, and a handful of rookie deals expire. So maybe we will have some more wiggle room. Point being though, I don't think we have the money to get both Schaub and Barwin. Add in the rookie money needed, the other expiring deals of Quin and McCain, and we will likely see some turnover next year. Can't pay everyone, so there will need to be some sacrifices.

Corrosion
08-16-2012, 06:13 PM
Man , they are up against the cap .... and will be for the next few years.

Barwin , Cushing , Watt hitting the market in consecutive years = PAINFUL.

And thats not taking into account players on the opposite side of the ball ..... not to be confused witht the CB who confuses his name with Ball.

76Texan
08-16-2012, 06:21 PM
Well the most obvious error I see in that list is that they don't account for minimum vet deals only counting 540k against the cap. They are also counting about 25 UDFA and minimum deals against that number that won't be on the team come September. Most, if not all, of those deals are not guaranteed, so that's a lot of money off the cap. If their average salary is 500k (low estimate), then that's about 12.5 million in savings once we go to a roster of 53.

I'm not quite sure about the individual numbers, but we'll see. Schaub's 8-10 million will be coming off the books, and a handful of rookie deals expire. So maybe we will have some more wiggle room. Point being though, I don't think we have the money to get both Schaub and Barwin. Add in the rookie money needed, the other expiring deals of Quin and McCain, and we will likely see some turnover next year. Can't pay everyone, so there will need to be some sacrifices.

Is there any guy on the roster that have contracts we can restructure?

76Texan
08-16-2012, 06:27 PM
And it looks like Andre Johnson's cap figure will take a big jump of more than $5M in 2013-2014

Dutchrudder
08-16-2012, 06:29 PM
Is there any guy on the roster that have contracts we can restructure?

Sure, cut Antonio Smith and save 6 million in salary next year. He still gets his signing bonus, but that 6 mill could come in handy. I suppose they could extend/restructure him, but I don't know if he would do that.

Andre is going to making 10+ the next 4 years, so we could extend him and spread out some money. JJo as well, but we would need to add years to his deal. He probably wouldn't go for that due to his age, but Andre is getting old and may go for it.

infantrycak
08-16-2012, 06:40 PM
I think Clayton's numbers are not up-to-date.

What do you make from these Spotrac numbers?

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/cap-hit/

Note that the new contract for Brown is not reflected in those figures.

It looks like we don't have any cap space for 2013.

The link you gave is for this year and is not cap space. It has way more than 53 players and errors such as having Keo counted under both active players and dead money. $9 mil in dead money seems incorrect for DeMeco as well since he only got a $7.5 mil signing bonus.

Corrosion
08-16-2012, 06:59 PM
Sure, cut Antonio Smith and save 6 million in salary next year. He still gets his signing bonus, but that 6 mill could come in handy. I suppose they could extend/restructure him, but I don't know if he would do that.

Andre is going to making 10+ the next 4 years, so we could extend him and spread out some money. JJo as well, but we would need to add years to his deal. He probably wouldn't go for that due to his age, but Andre is getting old and may go for it.

I have to wonder if Antonio Smith is worth MORE than they are paying him as the leader of that DL unit ..... Watt may be the anchor but it sure seems to me that since #94 showed up the culture has changed and he's still got a few good years left IMO. Maybe he restructures for the long term forthe success of the team ?? ..... then again maybe not.

AJ ..... I could see him re-structuring his deal for the sake of the team especially if they make a deep run in the post-season. #80 has always been a team player .... and he has more $$$ than a man can spend. It boils down to "how much is a Lombardi Trophy worth" to him.

(Yes , we are talking about our Texans and a Lombardi Trophy in the same sentence.) How far we have come!!!

Jjo ... He sincerely seems to enjoy this team. I could see him re-working his deal if they are on the cusp of a championship.

I think KW will finish out his deal and there is little room to restructure .... unless one of those kiddie WR's goes bonkers.


Matt Schaub ..... If healthy is a top 8 QB in the NFL. Roast me , I said it. He's going to get $12m per.

How the Texans balance all this against the cap is beyondme.

GP
08-16-2012, 08:27 PM
Well, according to John Clayton, the Texans will have about 24 million in capspace next year. Now that Brown has signed for just under 9 million a year, we should have around 15 million to use before cutting any vets like Antonio, Walter or OD. To me, that's not enough to keep both Schaub and Barwin, so it will be a choice between the two. I think Schaub is more important to the team's success, so I think he will be the one staying.

Assuming Barwin has a good year and gets 10 or so sacks, he will likely get a hefty deal on the free agent market. The Texans will be fine though, thanks to the Seahawks taking Bruce Irvin. If Irvin hadn't been picked by them in the 1st, we probably wouldn't have had a shot to get Mercilus at 26. Come to think of it, we should probably send Pete Carroll a nice gift basket or something...

And let's send a basket to Lovie Smith for taking Shea McLellin (DE) as well.

If Mercilus is who he think he is, it was truly amazing that he fell to us.

Side note: I'm not in favor of paying Barwin rock star money. Wade is nailing his picks, has for the past two years, and will for years to come. Let's not get silly and pay one of them as if we can't find their replacement every year in the draft.

Duane Brown is way more vital to this team's success than Connor Barwin, in the grand scheme of things. And I think this plays out in many ways. Notice we're spending our big bucks on offense: Myers, Brown, Foster, AJ, etc. Wade is talent identifying' like a mo-fo, making life easy for Gary--Gary gets to just pay the guys he already has and let Wade keep making hay in the draft for our defense. A nice arrangement, IMO. Win-win.

TexanSam
08-16-2012, 08:38 PM
Duane Brown is way more vital to this team's success than Connor Barwin, in the grand scheme of things. And I think this plays out in many ways. Notice we're spending our big bucks on offense: Myers, Brown, Foster, AJ, etc. Wade is talent identifying' like a mo-fo, making life easy for Gary--Gary gets to just pay the guys he already has and let Wade keep making hay in the draft for our defense. A nice arrangement, IMO. Win-win.

I think that will even out in the long haul. It just so happens that most of our best paid players on our offense, but there will be defensive players asking for big bucks besides Barwin once their contracts are up. Hopefully we'll be able to keep most of them, but I'm not sure Barwin will be among them. If he has another season like he did last year, then teams will definitely be lining up to give him big bucks.

TheMatrix31
08-16-2012, 08:50 PM
No point in having players be good if you can't keep him.

Gotta keep Barwin if he tears it up again this year.

WolverineFan
08-16-2012, 10:14 PM
No point in having players be good if you can't keep him.

Gotta keep Barwin if he tears it up again this year.

Well you can't keep everyone, which is why this is a debate. There's a guy waiting in the wings who could possibly take over for Barwin if we choose not to extend him next year. Therefore, we could let him walk and plug in our young draft pick and spend money on a vet at another position where we don't have that luxury.

steelbtexan
08-16-2012, 11:39 PM
Man , they are up against the cap .... and will be for the next few years.

Barwin , Cushing , Watt hitting the market in consecutive years = PAINFUL.

And thats not taking into account players on the opposite side of the ball ..... not to be confused witht the CB who confuses his name with Ball.

If you have to let Schaub/A.Smith/KJ walk to keep the LB corps and Watt you do it. Watt and the LB's are the heart of the defense. You cant have too much depth at LB in a 3-4.

Texecutioner
08-16-2012, 11:53 PM
If you have to let Schaub/A.Smith/KJ walk to keep the LB corps and Watt you do it. Watt and the LB's are the heart of the defense. You cant have too much depth at LB in a 3-4.

Let Schaub walk? I don't think so.

We don't have Aaron Rodgers waiting in the wings. We've got Kerry Collins type player in Yates possibly. I'll pay Schaub whatever he wants.

thunderkyss
08-17-2012, 12:17 AM
Side note: I'm not in favor of paying Barwin rock star money. Wade is nailing his picks, has for the past two years, and will for years to come. Let's not get silly and pay one of them as if we can't find their replacement every year in the draft.


I don't want to be drafting Outside pass rusher in the first or second round every year from here on out, there are plenty of other positions that will need to be addressed.

Until guys like Brahman turn into players that contribute on Sundays, we need to keep Barwin. He's an OLB in a 3-4, so he shouldn't command rock-star money. A good chunk sure.....

GP
08-17-2012, 12:30 AM
I don't want to be drafting Outside pass rusher in the first or second round every year from here on out, there are plenty of other positions that will need to be addressed.

Until guys like Brahman turn into players that contribute on Sundays, we need to keep Barwin. He's an OLB in a 3-4, so he shouldn't command rock-star money. A good chunk sure.....

It's Braman, not Brahman. And yes, if we keep identifying and adding LBs or DL every draft, and thus far Wade has shown he can indeed...Barwin has less leverage to use in negotiating.

There's only one LT...there's multiple LBs. And yet Barwin, like any rational player would, is going to want a nice contract.

Will it be reasonable or will he shoot a little higher than what's comfortable for us? I dunno, but it could make it harder since we've got Duane Brown locked up. I like that DB was handled first and foremost.

Hopefully Barwin buys into the teamwork spirit that AF and DB are exhibiting. I really can see Barwin wanting to test FA, though.

steelbtexan
08-17-2012, 12:38 AM
Let Schaub walk? I don't think so.

We don't have Aaron Rodgers waiting in the wings. We've got Kerry Collins type player in Yates possibly. I'll pay Schaub whatever he wants.

I'm a Schaub fan, but if being able to keep the defense intact means not re-signing a 32-33 injury prone Schaub. I would grit my teeth and let him walk.

GP
08-17-2012, 12:46 AM
I'm a Schaub fan, but if being able to keep the defense intact means not re-signing a 32-33 injury prone Schaub. I would grit my teeth and let him walk.

Same here.

Rey
08-17-2012, 12:47 AM
I don't understand why merciless signals that barwin is expendable.

A rotation of barwin, reed and merci for the next few years sounds pretty sweet to me.

And I don't care or think it matters who the starters are. Those guys are going to push each other and make each other better and they should l get a healthy amount of playing time.

And plus there was some comment from one of the coaches indicating that they think Reed can play in the middle some.

Depth and quality players are not easy to come by so I wouldn't be so quick to get rid of it.

We should try to keep barwin and do whatever it takes....within reason.

steelbtexan
08-17-2012, 12:51 AM
I don't understand why merciless signals that barwin is expendable.

A rotation of barwin, reed and merci for the next few years sounds pretty sweet to me.

And I don't care or think it matters who the starters are. Those guys are going to push each other and make each other better and they should l get a healthy amount of playing time.

Texans fans aren,t used to having a team with depth. Depth is what separates a 7-9, 9-7 team from a playoff/SB contending team.

utahmark
08-17-2012, 12:52 AM
I'm a Schaub fan, but if being able to keep the defense intact means not re-signing a 32-33 injury prone Schaub. I would grit my teeth and let him walk.

Might be tough letting the superbowl MVP walk.

Rey
08-17-2012, 12:54 AM
I'm a Schaub fan, but if being able to keep the defense intact means not re-signing a 32-33 injury prone Schaub. I would grit my teeth and let him walk.

This is a big year for schaub.

If he gets injured again or for some reason has a down year I wouldn't be surprised if they low ball him or flat out let him walk.

I like Yates a lot and I honestly think he can be a starting qb in the NFL.

But if schaub has a good or very good year...fuh get aboutit. He will be a Texan. Unless he is clearly in decline or damaged goods, you don't let qb's the caliber of schaub just walk.

steelbtexan
08-17-2012, 12:54 AM
Might be tough letting the superbowl MVP walk.

Hope you're right.

That would be a great problem to have.

thunderkyss
08-17-2012, 01:00 AM
Well you can't keep everyone, which is why this is a debate. There's a guy waiting in the wings who could possibly take over for Barwin if we choose not to extend him next year. Therefore, we could let him walk and plug in our young draft pick and spend money on a vet at another position where we don't have that luxury.

Then you'll have a Jesse Nading coming off the bench to spell Merci & Reed. That's not going to work. What will end up happening is that our starters will be taking 90% of the snaps & we'll have what we had with Mario. Guys getting hurt all the time & not being able to finish the season.

I understand you can't keep everyone. That's why Rick Smith needs to be smart about it & lock Barwin up before he blows up.

GP
08-17-2012, 01:15 AM
Barwin is a smart guy.

He is on a killer defense, and all he has to do is do what he does...and after this year's over, he can let his agents take bidders for his services in free agency 2013.

McClain, God love him and I know I just lost some street cred right here but oh well, old Johnny Pancakes tweeted that the Texans were trying to tackle contract extensions for Brown AND Barwin but that, according to McClain's wording, it was more hopeful to get one of those done and maybe not so good of a chance to get both of the deals done.

By the nature of things, Barwin (IMO) is going to want to see what he can get on the market. Just my hunch on it.

NitroGSXR
08-17-2012, 01:17 AM
Barwin's awesome but he won't be paid as an elite player. He is a very good player who fits the system very well. I don't think he would be a cap casualty per se. I can see him hitting the market on his own but I don't think the Texans just let him go as easily as they did Mario, DeMeco (Yes I know trade but its still letting him go), Briesel, and Winston. Having Reed step in like he did and now possibly Mercilus just doesn't scream money. Our next cap casuality will likely be Daniels.

Norg
08-17-2012, 03:44 AM
who would keep if u had to choose one Reed or barwin i think its a no brainer ...barwin

thats there plan i think see how matt does this year and if doesnot work out which i hope dpesnot happen we cut him and maybe get a good vet stop gap QB

TheRealJoker
08-17-2012, 08:08 AM
It's a passing league these days. You need as many pass rushers as you can get. Just having two starter quality pass rushers wont cut it against the elite offenses nowadays. They will gas out and get beat in the 4th quarter. You have to have a 3 man rotation to make sure everyone is fresh when teams are throwing 40-50 passes per game.

Look at the success the Giants are having with 3 quality pass rushers.

thunderkyss
08-17-2012, 08:39 AM
It's a passing league these days. You need as many pass rushers as you can get. Just having two starter quality pass rushers wont cut it against the elite offenses nowadays. They will gas out and get beat in the 4th quarter. You have to have a 3 man rotation to make sure everyone is fresh when teams are throwing 40-50 passes per game.

Look at the success the Giants are having with 3 quality pass rushers.

True. This is why we grabbed the NCAA sack leader in the last draft even though we have Barwin, Reed, & Braman (sp).

powda
08-17-2012, 10:26 AM
I'd love to see the guy stay, but the texans have something like 8 starters in a contract year. We're going to start losing a LOT of people. You cant blow up a team to keep a couple of people. Our draft m.o. needs to start looking like the patriots or we'll be back to mediocre in 2-3 years. It sucks but its better then being a miserable team again. This is the drawback of success...

Quick II Draw
08-17-2012, 11:48 AM
There's just no way the Texans retain all starters with the amount of big name contracts expiring in in the next two years. About the only sure thing is Cushing--can anyone imagine a scenario where he isn't retained after 2013?

There are only 3 variables to consider in keeping a player:
(1) How important is that player to the team?
(2) How developed/ready is the depth behind him?
(3) Do you have enough $$$ to give him a contract?

Barwin seems about as least likely to walk for $$$ as any player I've seen. He's a goofball whose only car is a prius, rides his bicycle to work, and by all accounts lives a low-maintenance lifestyle. Unfortunately it's his agent that will be doing the negotiating. And if Mercilus/Brahman work out, we could be looking at a 3-man OLB rotation that only needs to find 1 more backup pass rusher.

If Crick or Jamison have a good year they might let A.Smith walk. Quin is a solid player, but I wouldn't panic if they replaced him with Nolan or KJ.

Schaub is the most interesting case to me. What is market value on a 32-year-old finesse QB with an injury history? Plus, Yates has proven that there is a serviceable guy behind him.

Hervoyel
08-17-2012, 11:58 AM
I look around the league and to be honest I don't see a great deal of player movement relative to the number of established "stars" out there. It's a balancing act and most teams eventually do lose somebody but you don't see a high-profile player leaving every team, every year do you?

What's going to start working in the Texans favor if they continue to win is that for every guy who wants to leave for more money there will be a couple who stay for reasonable money to be here. It's a relatively new thing for us but get used to it.

The Medic01
08-17-2012, 11:59 AM
We cannot sign Barwin and Schaub. I wish we could but we can't blow up the team for 3 guys. If Schaub stays healthy all year and gets us 1-2 playoff wins then Barwin has to go. If Schaub doesn't stay healthy or doesn't get us a playoff win he may have to go although that's debatable. I think this team can still be great without Barwin but not without Schaub unless TJ made some big improvements which isn't impossible but is unlikely. We need the money from either Schaub or Barwin to resign Quinn McCain Dobbins Casey Jamison and Nolan. The good thing is 90% of those guys will take vet minimum but Casey Quinn and McCain will probably each ask for 1-3 million. Another Scenario is the rookie WRs look good as does Jared Crick and we can release Walter and Ninja which may mean we can keep the big three and some of the other starters/key backups.

gtexan02
08-17-2012, 12:07 PM
The thing with Barwin is he really only has one year under his belt, right? I mean, usually you expect a guy to perform for 2-3 years before inking a big extension. Id like to see what he can do this season against a little better competition before signing him to a big deal

infantrycak
08-17-2012, 12:09 PM
I look around the league and to be honest I don't see a great deal of player movement relative to the number of established "stars" out there. It's a balancing act and most teams eventually do lose somebody but you don't see a high-profile player leaving every team, every year do you?

Yeah, all the gnashing of teeth seems premature. There are teams around the league who spend two and three times as much money on a QB and still have other stars like say Manning, Wayne, Mathis and Freeny. Denver just paid enough to Manning to have Brown, Schaub and Barwin under contract.

As an example of the things teams do - folks keep talking about dumping Antonio. He is in the perfect position to restructure. He wants a last contract. He is a solid player. Sign his to an extension which dramatically cuts his cap hit.

ArlingtonTexan
08-17-2012, 12:11 PM
There's just no way the Texans retain all starters with the amount of big name contracts expiring in in the next two years. About the only sure thing is Cushing--can anyone imagine a scenario where he isn't retained after 2013?

There are only 3 variables to consider in keeping a player:
(1) How important is that player to the team?
(2) How developed/ready is the depth behind him?
(3) Do you have enough $$$ to give him a contract?

Barwin seems about as least likely to walk for $$$ as any player I've seen. He's a goofball whose only car is a prius, rides his bicycle to work, and by all accounts lives a low-maintenance lifestyle. Unfortunately it's his agent that will be doing the negotiating. And if Mercilus/Brahman work out, we could be looking at a 3-man OLB rotation that only needs to find 1 more backup pass rusher.
.
Don't get fooled that alernative lifestyle guys don't want to get fair market value for their services. If he were willing to just taking an OK offer then he probabaly would have been done already. Not saying he will be a squeeze every nickle guy, but even that type of guy understands business is busines and I am betting that Barwin gets that.

Rey
08-17-2012, 12:24 PM
Yeah, all the gnashing of teeth seems premature. There are teams around the league who spend two and three times as much money on a QB and still have other stars like say Manning, Wayne, Mathis and Freeny. Denver just paid enough to Manning to have Brown, Schaub and Barwin under contract.

As an example of the things teams do - folks keep talking about dumping Antonio. He is in the perfect position to restructure. He wants a last contract. He is a solid player. Sign his to an extension which dramatically cuts his cap hit.

Good post.

Corrosion
08-17-2012, 12:29 PM
Yeah, all the gnashing of teeth seems premature. There are teams around the league who spend two and three times as much money on a QB and still have other stars like say Manning, Wayne, Mathis and Freeny. Denver just paid enough to Manning to have Brown, Schaub and Barwin under contract.

As an example of the things teams do - folks keep talking about dumping Antonio. He is in the perfect position to restructure. He wants a last contract. He is a solid player. Sign his to an extension which dramatically cuts his cap hit.

Enough to cover their contracts now or when they are re-upped ?! I really didnt pay attention to the PeyMeATon mess.


I could see a scenario where Antonio Smith was a cap casualty ... but only if he refused to restructure and it seems he's very happy in Houston , with the team in general and the defense. He's also one of the leaders on that side of the ball ... I find it hard to envision him leaving under those circumstances.

ObsiWan
08-17-2012, 01:01 PM
Might be tough letting the superbowl MVP walk.

Who says A.J. is going anywhere?
:D

Quick II Draw
08-17-2012, 03:45 PM
Don't get fooled that alernative lifestyle guys don't want to get fair market value for their services. If he were willing to just taking an OK offer then he probabaly would have been done already. Not saying he will be a squeeze every nickle guy, but even that type of guy understands business is busines and I am betting that Barwin gets that.

...Unfortunately it's his agent that will be doing the negotiating.

I'm not.

steelbtexan
08-17-2012, 04:48 PM
Barwin is a smart guy.

He is on a killer defense, and all he has to do is do what he does...and after this year's over, he can let his agents take bidders for his services in free agency 2013.

McClain, God love him and I know I just lost some street cred right here but oh well, old Johnny Pancakes tweeted that the Texans were trying to tackle contract extensions for Brown AND Barwin but that, according to McClain's wording, it was more hopeful to get one of those done and maybe not so good of a chance to get both of the deals done.

By the nature of things, Barwin (IMO) is going to want to see what he can get on the market. Just my hunch on it.

This is why Rick needs to do a full court press to sign Barwin before the season starts. He's a unique athlete, there aren't many people Barwins size that can run that fast on this planet. Plus there's no questioning his commitment to football. He's every bit the player that Clay Matthews is. IMO How much do you think the Packers would pay Barwin to play opposite Matthews?

Barwin if healthy is going to put up huge numbers in Wades defense. He's going to get MW $$$$. Because of his injury Rick can get Barwin at a fair price now. If he waits Barwin will probably be gone. Like MW only for more $$$$.

I have my doubts if Rick will sieze this opportunity. (Of course I have alot of doubts about Ricks abilities to judge talent) I could be wrong about this though.

Quick II Draw
08-17-2012, 05:02 PM
Barwin will not get Mario money, even if he gets 20 sacks this year.

badboy
08-17-2012, 05:16 PM
Might be tough letting the superbowl MVP walk.Not if you are convinced Yates can take you to playoffs and Matt decides he wants more from another team. That would be pretty easy actually. Also, if Yates is starter next season, with 2013 draft apparently deep on QBs you should get a pretty solid selection in first or second or maybe even 3rd. This also does not included what Keenum develops into. It could be Yates/Keenum and another late round pick to find the next TJ Yates.

badboy
08-17-2012, 05:22 PM
It's a passing league these days. You need as many pass rushers as you can get. Just having two starter quality pass rushers wont cut it against the elite offenses nowadays. They will gas out and get beat in the 4th quarter. You have to have a 3 man rotation to make sure everyone is fresh when teams are throwing 40-50 passes per game.

Look at the success the Giants are having with 3 quality pass rushers.
Well we did pretty well last season with Barwin and Reed. No reason why Reed and Mercilus cannot do same. In fact I posted a mock saying Barwin would go in FA and we'd draft another OLB to go with Reed & Merci. Also predicted DB would extend.

utahmark
08-17-2012, 05:28 PM
Not if you are convinced Yates can take you to playoffs and Matt decides he wants more from another team. That would be pretty easy actually. Also, if Yates is starter next season, with 2013 draft apparently deep on QBs you should get a pretty solid selection in first or second or maybe even 3rd. This also does not included what Keenum develops into. It could be Yates/Keenum and another late round pick to find the next TJ Yates.

If Matt has a good season, stays healthy, and our team goes deep into the playoffs. He will be on our team next year.

badboy
08-17-2012, 05:35 PM
If Matt has a good season, stays healthy, and our team goes deep into the playoffs. He will be on our team next year.If Matt wants $12m he will not imo get it from Houston. How do you pay for it? Unless Barwin signs for an amazingly team friendly deal, I think Matt is on way out or they would not be negotiating now with Conner.

badboy
08-17-2012, 05:43 PM
If Matt has a good season, stays healthy, and our team goes deep into the playoffs. He will be on our team next year.If Matt wants $12m he will not imo get it from Houston. How do you pay for it? Unless Barwin signs for an amazingly team friendly deal, I think Matt is on way out or they would not be negotiating now with Conner.

infantrycak
08-17-2012, 06:02 PM
Well we did pretty well last season with Barwin and Reed. No reason why Reed and Mercilus cannot do same. In fact I posted a mock saying Barwin would go in FA and we'd draft another OLB to go with Reed & Merci. Also predicted DB would extend.

Teams are not built on developing players, getting one or two years of production out of them and then having them walk. You want to pick wisely sign them for their first two contracts and then decide whether to let them go.

If Matt wants $12m he will not imo get it from Houston. How do you pay for it? Unless Barwin signs for an amazingly team friendly deal, I think Matt is on way out or they would not be negotiating now with Conner.

Geez you are getting like GP with your crystal ball prognostications, just more terse. So they are trying to do a contract with Conner because they no longer want Matt?

Not if you are convinced Yates can take you to playoffs and Matt decides he wants more from another team. That would be pretty easy actually. Also, if Yates is starter next season, with 2013 draft apparently deep on QBs you should get a pretty solid selection in first or second or maybe even 3rd. This also does not included what Keenum develops into. It could be Yates/Keenum and another late round pick to find the next TJ Yates.

Yeah 'cuz top QB's just drop out of the woodwork from later rounds. Top 10 last year on QB rating - 6 1sts, 1 2nd (1st pick of the 2nd), 1 3rd (Schaub), 1 6th (Brady) and one undrafted (Romo).

People are getting awful cavalier between a huge demonstrated talent gap between Schaub and Yates.

Frankly folks are getting way to giddy entirely talking about dumping key pieces of a team left and right after they have made the playoffs once while predicting they are going to go onto a dynasty of revolving talent.

Doppelganger
08-17-2012, 06:12 PM
If it came down to it, I'd keep Barwin over Schaub. Use the money to extend Cush and have money left over for Watt. Build a ferocious menacing D(like Blitzberg, the Ravens, or the Giants of the past) and create a solid offense based on running the ball, short west coast style passes, and lots of TE play. Don't need a top 10 QB for that, just a top 20, and certainly Yates can be that.

IDEXAN
08-17-2012, 06:27 PM
Mercilus is the key, he gives the Texans all kinds of leverage when dealing with
Barwin. If they work out something before the season starts (or during the season notwithstanding claims by the Texans they don't negotiate contracts during the regular season), it's going to be on very favorable terms for the organization.

Corrosion
08-17-2012, 06:31 PM
If it came down to it, I'd keep Barwin over Schaub. Use the money to extend Cush and have money left over for Watt. Build a ferocious menacing D(like Blitzberg, the Ravens, or the Giants of the past) and create a solid offense based on running the ball, short west coast style passes, and lots of TE play. Don't need a top 10 QB for that, just a top 20, and certainly Yates can be that.

What was the Texans record last season before Schaub went down ???


And their record while Yates was the starter ???


7-3 with Schaub.

3-3 With Yates.

I think a lot of people really under-rate Schaub because .... he's not Brady or Rodgers. He might not be their calibur but he aint far from it .... I would take a healthy Schaub over all but that very top tier list of Brady , Rodgers , Brees and a healthy Manning.

76Texan
08-17-2012, 08:01 PM
What was the Texans record last season before Schaub went down ???


And their record while Yates was the starter ???


7-3 with Schaub.

3-3 With Yates.

I think a lot of people really under-rate Schaub because .... he's not Brady or Rodgers. He might not be their calibur but he aint far from it .... I would take a healthy Schaub over all but that very top tier list of Brady , Rodgers , Brees and a healthy Manning.

The record with Yates wasn't 3-3 in the regular season.

Leinart gave Yates the lead 17-10 against the Jags; we ended up winning by 7. A tie here is basically a win for Yates, I would think !?!


Yates then had 2 wins against 2 solid teams: Falcons and Bengals before losing 2 (Panthers and Colts - with the refs giving the game to the Colts.)

Yates then handed Delhome a 7-0 lead in the final game.

I don't know how to settle Yates win-loss record, to be honest, LOL!

...

Yates was 1-1 in the play-offs, which is more play-off experience than Schaub ever had. http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

TexansBull
08-17-2012, 09:09 PM
What was the Texans record last season before Schaub went down ???


And their record while Yates was the starter ???


7-3 with Schaub.

3-3 With Yates.

I think a lot of people really under-rate Schaub because .... he's not Brady or Rodgers. He might not be their calibur but he aint far from it .... I would take a healthy Schaub over all but that very top tier list of Brady , Rodgers , Brees and a healthy Manning.

I disagree.

Ravens won a Superbowl in spite of Kyle Boller. Our defense can be just as good as the Ravens with Wade at the helm. We are stacked at runningback too. We may lose Tate, but I have confidence we can find another #2 not as good, but better than most.#2s. We still have Dre and OD and a better then most o-line. I think we just need a middle of the pack QB.

I am not endorsing Yates to takeover, but it was his rookie year without an offseason because of the lock-out. Just something to consider.

I think our team has become so stacked in so many positions we need an average QB, not a better than average but not top tier QB if it means sacrificing talent on our Defense.

Is Yates that average QB? I dunno but I would bet on Barwin over Schaub.

steelbtexan
08-17-2012, 09:47 PM
What was the Texans record last season before Schaub went down ???


And their record while Yates was the starter ???


7-3 with Schaub.

3-3 With Yates.

I think a lot of people really under-rate Schaub because .... he's not Brady or Rodgers. He might not be their calibur but he aint far from it .... I would take a healthy Schaub over all but that very top tier list of Brady , Rodgers , Brees and a healthy Manning.

Yates = counting playoffs 4-2 with Wade.

0-2 without Wade.

Including losing to the 2-14 Colts without Wade.

It aint gonna be as easy this yr. But if Schaub and AJ stay healthy they can do it.

michaelm
08-17-2012, 10:21 PM
Barwin has had a season ending injury that cost him basically an entire season. He, of all people, might be very aware of how quickly an injury could trash his hopes of a large free agency contract.
I think they will offer him something fair, and he will accept.
If he were to sustain a freak injury like the previous one, it would cost him millions of dollars.

TexanSam
08-17-2012, 10:24 PM
Barwin > Schaub? Seriously? Yes, it would be awesome if we could keep Barwin, but if he asks for a huge deal that we can't match without hurting our team in other areas then it's not worth it. It would be a loss, but not as significant as people think.

We played with a hurt DeMeco Ryans and without Mario Williams for most of last season, and did fine. Losing Barwin wouldn't set us back too much, especially since we have Brooks Reed and Mercilus as depth. Worst case scenario, Reed/Mercilus takes over Barwin's position and the Texans sign a veteran to back them up. Is that so bad?

texanhead08
08-17-2012, 10:36 PM
You have to resign him, its hard enough to find pass rushers and Texans fans have bitched for years that we don't have any and some of you guys are suggesting we let 2 walk in consecutive years. Thats not smart the biggest key to a successful NFL team is protecting the QB on offense and getting after the QB on defense.

TexansBull
08-17-2012, 10:52 PM
Barwin has had a season ending injury that cost him basically an entire season. He, of all people, might be very aware of how quickly an injury could trash his hopes of a large free agency contract.
I think they will offer him something fair, and he will accept.
If he were to sustain a freak injury like the previous one, it would cost him millions of dollars.

Schaub sustaining a freak injury would have a similar affect. Obviously if the contract is ridiculous you don't sign him.

Barwin > Schaub? Seriously? Yes, it would be awesome if we could keep Barwin, but if he asks for a huge deal that we can't match without hurting our team in other areas then it's not worth it. It would be a loss, but not as significant as people think.

We played with a hurt DeMeco Ryans and without Mario Williams for most of last season, and did fine. Losing Barwin wouldn't set us back too much, especially since we have Brooks Reed and Mercilus as depth. Worst case scenario, Reed/Mercilus takes over Barwin's position and the Texans sign a veteran to back them up. Is that so bad?

Agreed and good points. And if Barwin hadn't shown up it would have hurt the team. And Demeco was playing such a limited role. If anything, it showed us we didn't need a high paid NFL DE but an average paid LB. And Mercilus is about as proven as Kareem Jackson his rookie year at this point.

Rey
08-17-2012, 11:13 PM
I would take a healthy Schaub over all but that very top tier list of Brady , Rodgers , Brees and a healthy Manning.

Shaub is a good player, but this offense is awesome.

I dont think schaub is close to those guys. I think it you put any of those guys in this offense, especially Rodgers, they might be even better than they currently are.

badboy
08-17-2012, 11:18 PM
Teams are not built on developing players, getting one or two years of production out of them and then having them walk. You want to pick wisely sign them for their first two contracts and then decide whether to let them go. Key word is "wisely". If we can sign Barwin team friendly great, but Barwin has right to say no to any offer. No way can you blanket all players with signing them to second contract before deciding to "allow" them to leave.



Geez you are getting like GP with your crystal ball prognostications, just more terse. So they are trying to do a contract with Conner because they no longer want Matt?



Yeah 'cuz top QB's just drop out of the woodwork from later rounds. Top 10 last year on QB rating - 6 1sts, 1 2nd (1st pick of the 2nd), 1 3rd (Schaub), 1 6th (Brady) and one undrafted (Romo). Just because you have a top 10 QB or any other position does not mean you give him what he wants. Again Matt has right to say no to any offer. Matt could get a Mario top deal and chose to leave regardless what Smith offers.

People are getting awful cavalier between a huge demonstrated talent gap between Schaub and Yates. As Smith will not negotiate with Matt until after the season would not the talent gap possibly reduce after this season?

Frankly folks are getting way to giddy entirely talking about dumping key pieces of a team left and right after they have made the playoffs once while predicting they are going to go onto a dynasty of revolving talent. One more time, Barwin while a "key" can be replaced just as Mario was with a roster player. Just because some players "revolve" does not necessarily mean the team cannot move forward.


Responses in bold.

badboy
08-17-2012, 11:24 PM
What was the Texans record last season before Schaub went down ???


And their record while Yates was the starter ???


7-3 with Schaub.

3-3 With Yates.

I think a lot of people really under-rate Schaub because .... he's not Brady or Rodgers. He might not be their calibur but he aint far from it .... I would take a healthy Schaub over all but that very top tier list of Brady , Rodgers , Brees and a healthy Manning.You do not think that Yates with another season behind him with this team plus all current roster players one season better cannot be more than a 8-8 leader? If that is your position, I totally disagree.

badboy
08-17-2012, 11:35 PM
Barwin has had a season ending injury that cost him basically an entire season. He, of all people, might be very aware of how quickly an injury could trash his hopes of a large free agency contract.
I think they will offer him something fair, and he will accept.
If he were to sustain a freak injury like the previous one, it would cost him millions of dollars.I too am hoping Barwin gets this plus he hears the praise that Merci is getting. I hope the other OLBs go beserk with sacks tomorrow and Monday we hear Barwin signs a Chris Myers type deal:

3/16/2011: Signed a four-year, $25 million contract. The deal contains $14 million guaranteed, including an $8 million signing bonus. 2012: $2.5 million, 2013: $3.5 million, 2014: $5 million, 2015: $6 million. http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3373/chris-myers

badboy
08-17-2012, 11:40 PM
You have to resign him, its hard enough to find pass rushers and Texans fans have bitched for years that we don't have any and some of you guys are suggesting we let 2 walk in consecutive years. Thats not smart the biggest key to a successful NFL team is protecting the QB on offense and getting after the QB on defense.Well last two drafts say you are incorrect. Reed in second and Mercilus appears to be another Watt type impact rookie player. IIRC, we have not let any pass rushers go in last two years. Mario refused to sign as a FA. Who is the other pass rusher you are speaking of?

Corrosion
08-18-2012, 07:27 AM
Shaub is a good player, but this offense is awesome.

I dont think schaub is close to those guys. I think it you put any of those guys in this offense, especially Rodgers, they might be even better than they currently are.

I wasnt saying Schaub is on the level of that short list .... But that he's as good or better than everybody not on that short list.


As for Rodgers (or one of the other short list QB's) being better in this offense , I think its quite possible and highly likely.
What Kubiak does with route combinations and play design creates natural windows of opportunity for recievers. Couple that with the abiltiy of an above average player .... you often get #80 trotting around in the secondary and no defender within 10 yards when three guy's are responsible for him.
One of those elite QB's would most definately exploit that.

Sure , I'd trade Schaub for Brady , Brees , Rodgers or Manning ..... but Im not so sure there is another QB out there that I would say that about.

You do not think that Yates with another season behind him with this team plus all current roster players one season better cannot be more than a 8-8 leader? If that is your position, I totally disagree.


I dont know ... Yates did an admirable job last season , but Schaub had the offense at a whole different level.
Does Yates have potential to get better ?? Yes.
Does he have the potential to be the starter at some point in the future ? Sure.
When ? I dont know.

Is he more capable than Schaub today ?? I dont think so. This team has a Superbowl or bust mentality.


Schaub gives them their best shot at reaching that goal.

Having Yates , after the experience he gained last year is a hell of a luxury tho.

drs23
08-18-2012, 09:43 AM
Yates = counting playoffs 4-2 with Wade.

0-2 without Wade.

Including losing to the 2-14 Colts without Wade.

It aint gonna be as easy this yr. But if Schaub and AJ stay healthy they can do it.

steelb, I don't think that loss had as much to do with Wade being out as it did with the horrific officiating. That's the only game I still have from last year and it's as one sided a game as I've ever watched. They simply neutered JJ Watt with baseless 15 yard penalties to keep Colt drives alive. Had we not been competing with the refs (who you can't beat) we'd have won that game hands down.

Lucky
08-18-2012, 12:10 PM
steelb, I don't think that loss had as much to do with Wade being out as it did with the horrific officiating.
The Texans ultra-conservative play calling had more to do with the result. They should have put the lowly Colts away long before that penalty filled final drive.

thunderkyss
08-18-2012, 12:25 PM
Yeah, Mario was gone regardless of how much or how well he played, the Texans couldn't have given him a competitive deal anyways. If he had remained healthy, he could have kept Barwin from exploding and getting on the entire league's radar. Aside from finally seeing Mario excel in a great defense, it would have been nice for him to temper Barwin's production and reduce his asking price in 2013. Oh well, can't win 'em all.

I brought this up from another thread. It got me thinking. Is Connor on the radar of the entire league?

I don't think so. I think he may have raised a few ears, but he's only put up average pass rushing stats against some pretty poor offenses. The defense was elite..... Connor was a big part of that, but he's not elite.

I'm thinking we need to sign him this year, because if he blows up this year, he'll command a lot of money, but based on his performance to date, & a conservative expcetation of future performance, we should be able to sign him to a decent...... not elite contract.

Similar to what Duane Brown got. Had we not signed Brown & he was recognized next season for being the elite LT we know he is, there would be teams willing to make him the highest paid LT.

thunderkyss
08-18-2012, 12:35 PM
Mercilus is the key, he gives the Texans all kinds of leverage when dealing with
Barwin. If they work out something before the season starts (or during the season notwithstanding claims by the Texans they don't negotiate contracts during the regular season), it's going to be on very favorable terms for the organization.

If that were the case, we never would have drafted Merci in the first round. Barwin just came off a great year, Reed came off a great year... You've got two starters who should only get better at OLB.

Plus we've got Braman who looks like he's got pottential. We could have drafted someone in the third or 4th to address depth & use the first on a WR.

We drafted someone in the first....... the NCAA sack leader, because we need someone who can play at Brooks' & Barwin's level right away.

If we lose Barwin this offseason, it will be the same thing. Unless Braman steps up.

thunderkyss
08-18-2012, 12:38 PM
I think a lot of people really under-rate Schaub because .... he's not Brady or Rodgers. He might not be their calibur but he aint far from it .... I would take a healthy Schaub over all but that very top tier list of Brady , Rodgers , Brees and a healthy Manning.

I give Schaub a hard time. But, the only thing that separates Schaub from those guys is wins. Had he stayed healthy, took us into the post season, people would see him differently.

Too much credit, for wins & losses. That's the ire of QBs in this league.

Corrosion
08-18-2012, 12:52 PM
I give Schaub a hard time. But, the only thing that separates Schaub from those guys is wins. Had he stayed healthy, took us into the post season, people would see him differently.

Too much credit, for wins & losses. That's the ire of QBs in this league.

I disagree with that .... Schaubs arm doesnt compare to that of Brady or Rodgers and he lacks the mobility of Brees .... Manning is on another level if healthy , arguably the best QB Ive watched in my lifetime certainly top 3 and Ive seen a lot of QB's come and go.

Would wins , especially in the post season elevate him in the minds of others .... absolutely. But there's more than just whats in the W/L column that seperates those elite QB's from the field , Schaub included.

I put Schaub in the "best of the rest" category.

FosterGreatness
08-18-2012, 01:54 PM
Personally I think Barwin signs a team friendly deal before the season and stays with the team. It shouldn't be that hard as management to convince him to do so. "You were injured for your second season. Granted you came back and had a wonderful year but that in itself doesn't warrant a big money contract. Also we (should) have a more than capable backup in the form of Whitney Mercilus."

If Barwin and his agent choose to walk for more money, you Franchise him. You may lose some money but, you keep Barwin locked up for one more year, let Mercilus further get acclimated to the NFL and he's gone in 2014. Or they could put a non exclusive Franchise Tag on him and test the waters to see what other teams would pay him, if it's too much for the Texans to handle you let him go, go with Mercilus and get two first round picks. You could then use those picks to create depth behind Mercilus/Reed.

The Texans have options but Schaub is far more valuable in my opinion.

texanhead08
08-18-2012, 02:43 PM
Personally I think Barwin signs a team friendly deal before the season and stays with the team. It shouldn't be that hard as management to convince him to do so. "You were injured for your second season. Granted you came back and had a wonderful year but that in itself doesn't warrant a big money contract. Also we (should) have a more than capable backup in the form of Whitney Mercilus."

If Barwin and his agent choose to walk for more money, you Franchise him. You may lose some money but, you keep Barwin locked up for one more year, let Mercilus further get acclimated to the NFL and he's gone in 2014. Or they could put a non exclusive Franchise Tag on him and test the waters to see what other teams would pay him, if it's too much for the Texans to handle you let him go, go with Mercilus and get two first round picks. You could then use those picks to create depth behind Mercilus/Reed.

The Texans have options but Schaub is far more valuable in my opinion.


This is why you sign Barwin now. It makes more sense to franchise Schaub if you have to.

FosterGreatness
08-18-2012, 04:38 PM
This is why you sign Barwin now. It makes more sense to franchise Schaub if you have to.

I would think it would be more expensive to franchise Schaub but I'm not really certain on that. I do agree with you about signing Barwin now. I think they could also sign Schaub and stay under the cap if they get a decent discount on Barwin... May have to restructure some contracts.

Corrosion
08-18-2012, 04:43 PM
May have to restructure some contracts.

Not real sure who would be a candidate for a restructure .... They will most definately have to get creative going forward.

infantrycak
08-18-2012, 04:49 PM
Not real sure who would be a candidate for a restructure .... They will most definately have to get creative going forward.

Antonio Smith is a big one. He is contracted to make $8 mil next year. Extending him and dropping that number could free room. Johnathon Joseph is another where base salary could be converted to bonus and salary cap freed up.

Quick II Draw
08-18-2012, 04:52 PM
How can you break this up?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=EUQmig3W9zo&NR=1

TheMatrix31
08-18-2012, 06:25 PM
You know what, I don't care. If the Eagles have figured out a way to have all those freakin' players, then so can we.

badboy
08-18-2012, 06:31 PM
I wasnt saying Schaub is on the level of that short list .... But that he's as good or better than everybody not on that short list.


As for Rodgers (or one of the other short list QB's) being better in this offense , I think its quite possible and highly likely.
What Kubiak does with route combinations and play design creates natural windows of opportunity for recievers. Couple that with the abiltiy of an above average player .... you often get #80 trotting around in the secondary and no defender within 10 yards when three guy's are responsible for him.
One of those elite QB's would most definately exploit that.

Sure , I'd trade Schaub for Brady , Brees , Rodgers or Manning ..... but Im not so sure there is another QB out there that I would say that about.




I dont know ... Yates did an admirable job last season , but Schaub had the offense at a whole different level.
Does Yates have potential to get better ?? Yes.
Does he have the potential to be the starter at some point in the future ? Sure.
When ? I dont know.

Is he more capable than Schaub today ?? I dont think so. This team has a Superbowl or bust mentality.


Schaub gives them their best shot at reaching that goal.

Having Yates , after the experience he gained last year is a hell of a luxury tho.C, TJ does not have to be better than Matt today. That's the whole point. He needs to be "close" to Matt by end of this season so Smith can determine what to do with Schaub.

GP
08-18-2012, 07:31 PM
I look around the league and to be honest I don't see a great deal of player movement relative to the number of established "stars" out there. It's a balancing act and most teams eventually do lose somebody but you don't see a high-profile player leaving every team, every year do you?

What's going to start working in the Texans favor if they continue to win is that for every guy who wants to leave for more money there will be a couple who stay for reasonable money to be here. It's a relatively new thing for us but get used to it.

Rick Smith loves him some Wade Phillips because Wade Phillips has dramatically turned the defense around...via Wade identifying which players he could switch around, which players to draft, and which players to sign via free agency. So in essence: If Rick lets Wade be Wade, every year, Wade is going to re-stock those shelves and essentially create rookie contracts rather than bloated veteran contracts (cough, Mario, cough, cough). This gives Rick more money to spend on guys like Foster, Myers, D. Brown, etc.

Wade's immediate impact is being felt across the board here. Not only is he owning the defensive turn around, he's owning the ability to draft quality rookies (Mercilus) who give us leverage against guys like Barwin. Even Kubiak is drafting better...I think his picks of Martin, Posey, Ben Jones, Brooks, and even Mondek will end up sticking for years to come here.

So yeah, I agree with what you're saying.

ckhouston
08-18-2012, 07:33 PM
I think Barwin will sign now and not go FA. Its the best defense in the league. He is a key cog in the wheel.

TejasTom
08-20-2012, 12:17 PM
http://www.xpertcomp.com/img/tecb.jpg

He looks out of place to me. I don't think he's on the expendable list.

HJam72
08-20-2012, 12:20 PM
http://www.xpertcomp.com/img/tecb.jpg

He looks out of place to me. I don't think he's on the expendable list.

Judging by that picture, I don't think he's smart enough to be expendable, LOL.

redwhiteblue
09-03-2012, 05:15 PM
The Texans said they don't negotiate contracts during the nfl season, I wonder if that means today is the start of week 1 and that did not reach an extension for Barwin

Bleed_Blu_Red
09-03-2012, 05:38 PM
I think we resign him, just a matter of much we are willing to dish out for him?

ChampionTexan
09-03-2012, 05:53 PM
The Texans said they don't negotiate contracts during the nfl season, I wonder if that means today is the start of week 1 and that did not reach an extension for Barwin

Not necessarily. A few years ago Eric Winston was signed to a contract extension the Saturday before the opening game. I believe it was in 2008.

CloakNNNdagger
09-03-2012, 06:43 PM
I am sure that the motive for some of the more head scratching moves at the end of the off season have to do with the cap.........not least of which is next year's. I'm afraid we are going to find ourselves no better off cap-wise in dealing with trying to keep and put together a winning team next year, while some of the others in our division enjoy a Rodeo Drive spending spree. "Expendable" is a word that I expect to be thrown around plenty from now to the 2013 season.

drs23
09-03-2012, 08:13 PM
I am sure that the motive for some of the more head scratching moves at the end of the off season have to do with the cap.........not least of which is next year's. I'm afraid we are going to find ourselves no better off cap-wise in dealing with trying to keep and put together a winning team next year, while some of the others in our division enjoy a Rodeo Drive spending spree. "Expendable" is a word that I expect to be thrown around plenty from now to the 2013 season.

You are more than likely very correct Doc. Caught an article on espn.com (http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/62615/oh-the-irony-giants-are-over-the-cap) that the Texans along with the Giants and the Lions are $700,000 over the cap as of 4:23 PM today.

Gonna be interesting on a lot of fronts next season.

Not JUST Conner Barwin.

Ryan
09-03-2012, 08:47 PM
I think our biggest point of conversation on this next year will be Owen Daniels, especially if Graham keeps progressing.

Norg
09-03-2012, 10:57 PM
he is in this day of age u cant keep them all unless the player himself wants to stay here and make less money

lets just enjoy Reed Merculis and barwin this year when there all here

ObsiWan
09-04-2012, 08:13 AM
You are more than likely very correct Doc. Caught an article on espn.com (http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/62615/oh-the-irony-giants-are-over-the-cap) that the Texans along with the Giants and the Lions are $700,000 over the cap as of 4:23 PM today.

Gonna be interesting on a lot of fronts next season.

Not JUST Conner Barwin.

Someone help me out here; just what is the penalty for being over the cap, exactly????
:thinking:

TejasTom
09-04-2012, 08:34 AM
Someone help me out here; just what is the penalty for being over the cap, exactly????
:thinking:

Commissioner shall be authorized to:
(i) impose a fine of up to $6,500,000, payable to the NFL, upon any Club found to have committed such violation;
(ii) order the forfeiture of up to a maximum of two draft choices (without limitation as to round) by the Club found to have committed such violation;
(iii) impose a fine of up to $500,000 on any Club executive or other Club per- sonnel found to have committed such violation; and/or
(iv) suspend for up to one year any Club executive or other Club personnel found to have committed such violation.

Ouch!

LikeMike
09-04-2012, 08:39 AM
The problem is: we have too many good players... is Barwin expendable? Not really, but IŽd say he is more expendable than Cushing or Schaub. With a team this stacked, we`ll have several hurtful offseasons ahead of us.

The solution? Getting draft picks for those players. NE has been doing that for years - rookie contracts are what you want - and only keep the most important veterans. I guess that was one of the big reasons for drafting Mercilus.

So I could very well see us losing Barwin, Smith and Tate next off season... ouch.

CloakNNNdagger
09-04-2012, 08:55 AM
Besides going to the cap exemption (where we right off the bat go into debt for $700,000 towards next year's cap) to get under the cap, there can be a renegotation of someone's contract, a trade or a release of a player by the Texans. We'll find out by some time tomorrow. For sure the deadline will not pass with the Texans remaining over the cap.

CloakNNNdagger
09-04-2012, 10:04 AM
This is somewhat contradictory to the last Texans cap status tweeted report. The Cody White signing would certainly not have made the difference.

According to this report, the Texans are at $2.3 million below the cap as of yesterday......not $700,000 over?

Team-by-team cap space as of September 3 (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/04/team-by-team-cap-space-as-of-september-3/)

CloakNNNdagger
09-04-2012, 10:16 AM
Numbers based on 51 (now) vs 53 man roster (tomorrow) may explain the discrpancy.

Until the start of the regular season, only the top 51 cap numbers factor in to the calculation. Once the season begins, all players on the 53-man roster — along with all players on any reserve list — must fit under the cap. link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/04/jags-still-have-28-7-million-in-cap-space/)

Dutchrudder
09-04-2012, 10:34 AM
Numbers based on 51 (now) vs 53 man roster (tomorrow) may explain the discrpancy.

link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/04/jags-still-have-28-7-million-in-cap-space/)

The two contracts that get added should be 390k a piece, so subtract another 780k from that cap number and we should be around 1.52 million in space.

ChampionTexan
09-04-2012, 10:36 AM
The two contracts that get added should be 390k a piece, so subtract another 780k from that cap number and we should be around 1.52 million in space.

We've also got three guys on IR, plus one on PUP and they count in addition to the 53.

CloakNNNdagger
09-04-2012, 11:16 AM
The two contracts that get added should be 390k a piece, so subtract another 780k from that cap number and we should be around 1.52 million in space.

Have the IR'd players all been accounted for before now?

ChampionTexan
09-04-2012, 11:28 AM
Have the IR'd players all been accounted for before now?

They'd taken the top 51, so it definitely included Rashad Butler. Where Bullock and Fox fit in, I'm not sure.

Essentially, when the deadline comes and goes this afternoon, we'll be adding 6 salaries, all presumably making the minimum, to the 51 they've been counting up until then.

Additionally, anybody they add to IR down the road will have to be replaced on the 53 man roster, so we'll need to make room to add when that happens.

Down the road, if Sharpton's able to be added to the 53 man roster, that will actually create a small amount of space by reducing the number of folks who count against the cap (unless the roster cut that makes room for him is a vested veteran who was on the roster for the opening game - in which case his salary will be guaranteed and continue to count against the cap).

Dutchrudder
09-04-2012, 11:30 AM
We've also got three guys on IR, plus one on PUP and they count in addition to the 53.

The top 51 contracts should have already included Butler's contract. 1.3 million salary easily puts him in the top 20.

It's possible that Keyaron Fox's deal was also top 51 because he's a 9 year vet, and counts 540k against the cap. I'm not sure how many of those vet minimum deals we have on the list.

Bullock apparently only makes 390k this year, but he has a 44k signing bonus caphit each year according to Sportrac. He probably isn't included in the top 51 already, so that would add another 390k to the heap (assuming the 44k was already accounted for).

ChampionTexan
09-04-2012, 11:34 AM
The top 51 contracts should have already included Butler's contract. 1.3 million salary easily puts him in the top 20.

It's possible that Keyaron Fox's deal was also top 51 because he's a 9 year vet, and counts 540k against the cap. I'm not sure how many of those vet minimum deals we have on the list.

Bullock apparently only makes 390k this year, but he has a 44k signing bonus caphit each year according to Sportrac. He probably isn't included in the top 51 already, so that would add another 390k to the heap (assuming the 44k was already accounted for).

The point is we'll be going from 51 to 57 since the cap covers the 53 man roster, IR (3 guys), and PUP (1 guy).

Six added salaries, all presumably at the minimum.

The Pencil Neck
09-04-2012, 01:07 PM
Someone help me out here; just what is the penalty for being over the cap, exactly????
:thinking:

For every $10,000 you're over, they kill a kitten.

ObsiWan
09-04-2012, 01:12 PM
For every $10,000 you're over, they kill a kitten.

well that's not so bad...

....but I'm not a cat person either

badboy
09-04-2012, 02:40 PM
I'm all for keeping as many vets as possible IF they meet cap criteria. Not saying I want to put us in cap hell next season but by 2013 we shoud know even more about our younger guys and where we can cut vets. We are going to lose some good players next 2-3 seasons but that is the mark of a good team.