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b0ng
08-15-2012, 01:58 PM
http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2012/08/texans-kareem-jackson-showing-a-lot-of-improvement/

Asked to be specific about Jackson, Kubiak said, ”Kareem’s very smart. His diagnosis is excellent. On the back end, you’ve got to be able to cheat on plays. You’ve got to be able to see splits and seek formations and cheat plays. Kareem’s seen enough of them now that’s he’s able to do that quite a bit, and that’s helping him make more plays.”

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Texans-see-major-improvement-in-CB-Kareem-Jackson/5bd0e086-1bf4-4186-9772-da47776ae8ab

Quarterback Matt Schaub dropped back to pass and heaved a ball to the end zone. Jackson leapt high in the air to tip the ball with his right hand, then corralled it for a one-handed interception.

It was just one play, but it was representative of the progress that the much-maligned Jackson has made entering his third NFL season.

http://houston.cbslocal.com/2012/08/14/is-kareem-jackson-improving/

Kareem Jackson was borderline incompetent two seasons ago. And while he made strides last year, he still had to split time at cornerback with Jason Allen.

Soooooooooo, it's being talked about but why do I smell smoke and have the feeling something is being blown up my butt? Is Jackson really improving? Have dogs and cats started living together in harmony? What's really going on denizens of texanstalk?

Also, what do we make of him now judged against his contemporaries who went near where he did in the draft of that year (Kyle Wilson, Devin McCourty)?

Dutchrudder
08-15-2012, 02:02 PM
He made one good play on the ball near the goalline that resulted in a pass defended. Other than that, I can't recall him even making a tackle in that game. Not sure if that's because he was doing well, or Cam was under too much pressure, or if it's because the Panther's WRs are 35 years old. In any case, I didn't see him get beat or miss an assignment in the 10 or so plays he was out there.

MojoMan
08-15-2012, 02:04 PM
Part of the problem here is that some people expected too much of Kareem his rookie year. Progression and improvement are expected out of NFL players, especially early in their careers.

So, Kareem is improving. Good for him and good for the Houston Texans.

Goatcheese
08-15-2012, 02:20 PM
Other than the first half of his rookie campaign, KJ has had a quality NFL career and has made steady, visible improvement since he arrived. People are still hung up over those first disastrously bad games during his rookie year, where he was seemingly giving up 100+ yards a game. The player that finished 2010 was very different from the one who started it. Last year, Kareem made a lot of improvements under the new regime and in limited action this TC and preseason he looks like he's only getting better.

I don't think he has the athletic ability or instincts to ever be an elite corner, but he is starting to look like the kind of player who deserved to be picked in the first round.

gwallaia
08-15-2012, 02:20 PM
Manning and Joseph on the field makes Kareem better.

b0ng
08-15-2012, 02:23 PM
He made one good play on the ball near the goalline that resulted in a pass defended. Other than that, I can't recall him even making a tackle in that game. Not sure if that's because he was doing well, or Cam was under too much pressure, or if it's because the Panther's WRs are 35 years old. In any case, I didn't see him get beat or miss an assignment in the 10 or so plays he was out there.

Most of the improvement seems to be of the variety that happens Tuesday's through Friday's. I know that when Ajiratutu played with San Diego in 2010 he beat Jackson like a drum. He was out there for Carolina on Saturday and was relatively quiet.

The Pencil Neck
08-15-2012, 02:27 PM
A lot of CBs have a tendency to struggle their first couple of years in the league. KJ has made a lot of improvement. I want to see him perform this year, but I suspect he's developed into an at least serviceable #2.

OTOH, I was never in the "I hate KJ" section of the board.

HOU-TEX
08-15-2012, 02:32 PM
A lot of CBs have a tendency to struggle their first couple of years in the league. KJ has made a lot of improvement. I want to see him perform this year, but I suspect he's developed into an at least serviceable #2.

OTOH, I was never in the "I hate KJ" section of the board.

I wasn't really either. Other than a blast every now and then his rookie year, of course.

I don't think he'll ever really be a shutdown CB like JJo. I do, however, see him as no longer being a QBs savior when a CB like JJo shuts down their 1st option. Which is fine by me as long as a JJo is on the other side.

Allstar
08-15-2012, 02:41 PM
He made one good play on the ball near the goalline that resulted in a pass defended. Other than that, I can't recall him even making a tackle in that game. Not sure if that's because he was doing well, or Cam was under too much pressure, or if it's because the Panther's WRs are 35 years old. In any case, I didn't see him get beat or miss an assignment in the 10 or so plays he was out there.

On the third play of the game, KJ perfectly read the play and had a pick 6 if could have held onto the ball. The only other time the ball was thrown his way was in the endzone where he defended Smith perfectly. Kareem was our best corner in last week.

mokalus
08-15-2012, 02:51 PM
Let's all just be cautiously optimistic about Kareem's improvement. From what I'm reading/hearing, at least it sounds like he understands the concept of needing to see the ball in order to make a play on it. That's a start...

b0ng
08-15-2012, 03:11 PM
I think hating KJ for that godawful rookie year isn't too unfair, he was really bad.

thunderkyss
08-15-2012, 03:13 PM
Soooooooooo, it's being talked about but why do I smell smoke and have the feeling something is being blown up my butt? Is Jackson really improving? Have dogs and cats started living together in harmony? What's really going on denizens of texanstalk?

Also, what do we make of him now judged against his contemporaries who went near where he did in the draft of that year (Kyle Wilson, Devin McCourty)?

Kyle Wilson played in the slot his rookie season. He split time with Cromartie last year, he'll probably start in 2012 as Cro will be playing WR... The Jet's defense was top 3 (I think) when Kyle was a rookie... I don't think they were in the top 10 when he played more at the #2 spot.... I don't think it was his fault, that's not my point.

Devin McCourty was on one of the worst defenses last season. He got bumped from CB to Safety & moved back to CB on a game to game basis.

But we're talking about how much Kareem has to improve. As if Kyle Wilson, Devin McCourty, Joe Haden, or Patrick Peterson don't.

This is Kareem's 3rd year, so I expect him to look average. Maybe worse, as he'll get picked on a lot. But, no one should expect any more. Patrick Peterson is going to look average as a CB, Joe Haden is going to look average... but may not get picked on as much because he has one opposite him.

In previous years, if I'm his DB coach, I'm telling him, "In this situation I want you lined up like this & to play it like that.... In those situations, you need to be here & look for this, that, and be prepared for.... "

This year, I'm not going to be telling him anything, instead I'm going to be asking him, "Why did you do this here, but that there.. what did you see on this play, what were you thinking on that play... did you see this over here, how did that affect your decision? "

Playing CB is not as easy as they make it look.

We love McCain, hate Kareem, but Wade has put Kareem on the field more often.


Hmm....

badboy
08-15-2012, 03:33 PM
I was probably most outspoken critic of drafting KJ. Thought he was not the type we needed. I think his improvement is due to his coaches. He has size and ok speed but had trouble in "bump & run" coverage. He tried to knock WR off balance but missed and had "uh,oh" moments. We often saw KJ playing catchup or sometimes on ground. I did not see that as much late last season or so far this one.

nero THE zero
08-15-2012, 03:35 PM
I'm going to venture that it's a combination of experience and coaching.

He's a good player on a short field, he's just exposed when he has to run with receivers (see SD and NYJ games from his rookie year). So, with him gaining years of experience on how best to leverage his strengths along with Wade, Vance, and company helping to best illuminate those strengths while hiding his weaknesses (i.e. persistent safety help over the top), you get what we have today.

GP
08-15-2012, 03:36 PM
I still don't fully buy into his "progress" just based on one game in preseason vs. the Panthers. I won't get over-geeked about Andrew Luck vs. the Rams defense...so I also won't get silly over Kareem's game vs. the Panthers.

In year 1, he looked lost and completely overwhelmed by the jump in competition from his days in the SEC to now being in the NFL.

In year 2, he looked discouraged...sharing time with Jason Allen had to be a hit to his ego, especially with J Jo locking down the CB1 position and there's Kareem with a chaperone every Sunday.

Year 3? Maybe this is the year he figures (a) I'm not a rookie, and (b) I don't need a chaperone every Sunday. Maybe this is the year it all comes together for him. I hope so.

Because that Ball dude at CB2 scares the living **** out of me in ways I never knew existed.

DBCooper
08-15-2012, 04:02 PM
Manning and Joseph on the field makes Kareem better.

As does the Son of Bum.

Dutchrudder
08-15-2012, 04:06 PM
On the third play of the game, KJ perfectly read the play and had a pick 6 if could have held onto the ball. The only other time the ball was thrown his way was in the endzone where he defended Smith perfectly. Kareem was our best corner in last week.

Yes, that would be his good play near the goalline, however it was the only stat he recorded in the entire game. Calling him the best CB of the game is misguided though, Jonathan Joseph allowed Steve Smith 1 catch for 4 yards and Steve Smith is light years ahead of any other WR on the Panthers.

KJ had a good game, albeit only about 10 plays. It's a good start no doubt, but I want to see him more this week before I'm confident in his ability to be the #2 CB.

Premier
08-15-2012, 04:42 PM
having j-jo and manning on the field had nothing to do with the fluidity kareem showed at the cornerback position in carolina.while i agree having those two has made kareems transition a bit easier he is coming into his own this season. look, i get it, kareem has been the whipping boy by the knee jerk fans, "hes the slowest, worst, dumbest, cb in the league, complete bust. anytime he makes a positive play its because the pass rush was getting after the qb or j-jo had his man shut down." he will never get any credit..

im looking forward to the combo of j-jo and kjax being one of the better 1-2s this year at the position.. this defense is stacked..

Corrosion
08-15-2012, 04:59 PM
I dont think his improvement is so improbable at all.

I do believe he was thrown into the fire before he was ready and the fact that there was zero pass rush that first season didnt help.

He only had one bad quarter last season when Drew Brees picked on him constantly .... but Brees being an elite QB can make an awful low of CB's look bad.


Now they have a fantastic pass rush and he's gained valuable experience as well as confidence .... a CB with no confidence isnt going to trust his ability nor the system.


Add up the experience , confidence and pass rush .... you get a player who's had a lightbulb moment.

Thorn
08-15-2012, 05:17 PM
Add up the experience , confidence and pass rush .... you get a player who's had a lightbulb moment.

He was really bad his first year, now he's much better as anyone can see. Whatever the reason for his first year woes and his improvement since we can talk about all day long I suppose. But it does sound like he's turning into a good corner, and we need that, so good for him.

thunderkyss
08-15-2012, 05:32 PM
I'm sure they are going to try to wiggle Brandon Harris on the field one way or another. It will most likely cost Kareem some playing time, but I don't think that will reflect negatively on Kj uncles it's close to the 50-50 split he had with Allen.

I don't think Kareem is a star by any means. I don't see him as a play maker but I think he's a very good cover guy right now, so we'll see.

76Texan
08-15-2012, 05:41 PM
He was really bad his first year, now he's much better as anyone can see. Whatever the reason for his first year woes and his improvement since we can talk about all day long I suppose. But it does sound like he's turning into a good corner, and we need that, so good for him.

Chris Myers part deux! :)

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78347&highlight=chris+myers+part+deux

Corrosion
08-15-2012, 06:09 PM
He was really bad his first year, now he's much better as anyone can see. Whatever the reason for his first year woes and his improvement since we can talk about all day long I suppose. But it does sound like he's turning into a good corner, and we need that, so good for him.

I think its a combination of all those things in no particular order - Coaching , Confidence , Pass rush , Experience.


I don't see him as a play maker but I think he's a very good cover guy right now, so we'll see.

You might have to rethink that statement .... He's looking for the ball now rather than looking like Ball who never looks for the ball .... and thats how a CB makes plays rather than just giving up yards and making a tackle after.

steelbtexan
08-15-2012, 06:13 PM
KJ made strides last yr. (He didn't fall down every time a WR made a double move)

He still wasn't good enough to beat out Allen. (Scary thought)

Rey
08-15-2012, 06:24 PM
Chris Myers part deux! :)

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78347&highlight=chris+myers+part+deux

I don't know about that...

Well, not from my perspective at least...

I thought Chris Meyers had talent since day one. I thought he fit what we needed out of the position to a T.

I think Kareem has just flat out gotten better. Maybe we can say the same thing about Meyers, bu tI think the improvement in Kareem is more dramatic...

JMO...

thunderkyss
08-15-2012, 08:01 PM
I don't know about that...

Well, not from my perspective at least...

I thought Chris Meyers had talent since day one. I thought he fit what we needed out of the position to a T.

I think Kareem has just flat out gotten better. Maybe we can say the same thing about Meyers, bu tI think the improvement in Kareem is more dramatic...

JMO...

I belileve that's his point. 76 has been a supporter of Meyers from day one, way before we had one of the better OL in the league. Based on consistently doing what he was asked to do, 76 knew once the rest of the team matched Meyers level of consistency, we'd have a solid OL. Some people focused on Kris Jenkins tossing Meyers... 'duh, Jenkins tossed everybody.

Based on what the Texans said they were looking for when they drafted Kj, 76 has confirmed that everything they said was there. He played like a rookie on a team that had serious issues. He looked like a rookie.

But Kj consistently did his job. Once the safety play got better, once the LBs got better, once the pass rush got better, Kj "looked" a lot better. No doubt, that Kj has to get better, but it's no different for him than any other player in the league. If they are not getting better, they're getting replaced.

76 doesn't look at just the individual players, but how they fit in the concept to what the team is trying to do. Like your input in that other thread, where you pointed out that both tackles went for the DEs knees to get their hands down to facilitate a quick release... instead of getting on Butler for doing his job, you put the focus on Matt's decision making, which was the main issue in that particular play.

You & 76. If people would listen, we'd all improve our football intelligence.

Texan_Bill
08-15-2012, 08:26 PM
I'm in late on this convo and didn't have a chance to read the whole thread. That said, I admit to raking Kareem over the coals. That said, he was much improved last year, even in a platoon situation.

Could've it been a situation where during his rookie season that the coaching was so horrible, he sucked so bad? Afterall, this is a guy who was a pretty good player in the SEC at Alabama. Maybe, if coached up properly by Vance Johnson, could he turn into a servicable, if not, more than servicable CB???

In the end, I'm willing to let it play out.

IBleedTexans
08-15-2012, 08:41 PM
I'm in late on this convo and didn't have a chance to read the whole thread. That said, I admit to raking Kareem over the coals. That said, he was much improved last year, even in a platoon situation.

Could've it been a situation where during his rookie season that the coaching was so horrible, he sucked so bad? Afterall, this is a guy who was a pretty good player in the SEC at Alabama. Maybe, if coached up properly by Vance Johnson, could he turn into a servicable, if not, more than servicable CB???

In the end, I'm willing to let it play out.

IBT Kareem lovers say I told you so













I told you so.......:kitten:

Texan_Bill
08-15-2012, 08:56 PM
IBT Kareem lovers say I told you so













I told you so.......:kitten:

HA!! Yeah, I was actually stoked whenever the Texans drafted him... Then, and only then his rookie season was sh!te!! Then again, that was a time when the Texans "D" staff was crap.

Again, I don't think KJ will be any great shakes, but I do think with the current staff, he can be very servicable.

silvrhand
08-15-2012, 09:10 PM
He was really bad his first year, now he's much better as anyone can see. Whatever the reason for his first year woes and his improvement since we can talk about all day long I suppose. But it does sound like he's turning into a good corner, and we need that, so good for him.

Show me someone on our defense his rookie year that wasn't bad, we couldn't get pressure if our life depended on it. His bad year was even worse cause our front 7 couldn't pressure anyone..

Playoffs
08-15-2012, 09:32 PM
Chris Myers part deux! :)
Exactly. Myers finally got it. Kareem's improvement comes from hard work, better coaching, experience, and the right system. System is big. Ask Jason Babin.

It takes a lot of character to push past widely help perceptions and will yourself to another level of play. Kudos to KJ if he gets to the level of solid, middle-of-the-pack CB this year.

ThaJokaa
08-15-2012, 09:54 PM
IBT Kareem lovers say I told you so




I told you so.......:kitten:

Told ya so...

Show me someone on our defense his rookie year that wasn't bad, we couldn't get pressure if our life depended on it. His bad year was even worse cause our front 7 couldn't pressure anyone..

Brian Cushing DROY?

IBleedTexans
08-15-2012, 10:13 PM
HA!! Yeah, I was actually stoked whenever the Texans drafted him... Then, and only then his rookie season was sh!te!! Then again, that was a time when the Texans "D" staff was crap.

Again, I don't think KJ will be any great shakes, but I do think with the current staff, he can be very servicable.

I wasn't stoked about the pick , as a matter of fact I hated the pick ( like all the first rounders since 08). The thing that i like the most about Kareem is his tough skin . I think he feed off that ,used it and you can see he's put in the work to become a better player.

JCTexan
08-15-2012, 10:54 PM
Told ya so...



Brian Cushing DROY?

Cushing was suspended because of PEDs to start the year. It could even be said he had a down year after his suspension (at least compared to his ROY campaign). Demeco Ryans went down midseason and missed the final ten games. The secondary was awful the entire year. I actually don't know if there were any bright spots on the defense in 2010.

thunderkyss
08-15-2012, 11:05 PM
HA!! Yeah, I was actually stoked whenever the Texans drafted him... Then, and only then his rookie season was sh!te!! Then again, that was a time when the Texans "D" staff was crap.

Again, I don't think KJ will be any great shakes, but I do think with the current staff, he can be very servicable.

Like you said, we had a lot of issues in 2010, Frank Bush just wasn't well equipped (between the ears) to compensate. Where Wade has the experience to know you gotta keep doing what you're good at despite whatever complications that pop up.

KJ is not the next coming of Deon. I get the feeling that is what many of us expect. But I Think he is going to be a fine cover corner. More like Namdi, where QBs just don't throw his way.

If h is looking for the ball now, like it's been stated he is going to have a fin year. But since he doesn't get many interceptions ( even going back to his college days) he''ll get overshadowed by Manning & Jjo.

thunderkyss
08-15-2012, 11:06 PM
Told ya so...



Brian Cushing DROY?

I think he meant anyone who was good in 2010, Kareem's rookie year. Wehad the 30th ranked defense. Last in pass defense.

kingh99
08-15-2012, 11:07 PM
The way this team brings the heat, watch our corners start jumping the short out routes. I see pick six runs backs in our future. If our QB learns how to take a step up in the pocket, we can go all the way. Our defense will take the ball away and our offense will chew clock. It should be smothering. Up to Schaub and the O line to get us there but it's starting to feel inevitable like when the Rockets went on their mid 90's run. You think, this is Houston, snake bit city. Something bad will happen. Felt that way with the Rockets but they just powered through the fear and uncertainty and took it.

thunderkyss
08-15-2012, 11:15 PM
The way this team brings the heat, watch our corners start jumping the short out routes. I see pick six runs backs in our future. If our QB learns how to take a step up in the pocket, we can go all the way. Our defense will take the ball away and our offense will chew clock. It should be smothering. Up to Schaub and the O line to get us there but it's starting to feel inevitable like when the Rockets went on their mid 90's run. You think, this is Houston, snake bit city. Something bad will happen. Felt that way with the Rockets but they just powered through the fear and uncertainty and took it.

If it feels like it's going to happen. Rent assured, it won't. Last few super bowl champs were improbable options. Both the Packers & Giants went into the post season at 9-7

EllisUnit
08-15-2012, 11:33 PM
As does the Son of Bum.

As does all the pressure our line puts on opposing QBs

kingh99
08-15-2012, 11:33 PM
If it feels like it's going to happen. Rent assured, it won't. Last few super bowl champs were improbable options. Both the Packers & Giants went into the post season at 9-7

Fair enough. Those Rockets teams got hot at the right time. They were nothing spectacular during the regular season. But then again, occasionally a one season juggernaut powers through the league. 1985 Bears come to mind. It's leap year rare, but it happens.

Dutchrudder
08-15-2012, 11:50 PM
I don't know why I thought this was near the goalline, but here's Kareem's play of the day. Nearly a Troy Nolan INT, but just a few milliseconds too slow. Good read, didn't get confused by the 3 WR bunch and he covered the open man. Bravo Kjax!

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/Sports/My%20Gifs/KareemJackson1.gif

thunderkyss
08-16-2012, 01:56 AM
Nice. A little anticipation there, kinda like he read the QBs eyes & jumped the route. Ball went right through his hands.

Rey
08-16-2012, 02:13 AM
Kareem has been good on the short stuff since his rookie year, but that play he made last Saturday jumping that pass was not something weve seen a lot of.

Usually he's in good position on this type of routes, but it looks like now he has gotten to the point where he makes plays on the ball.

If Kareem can take his intermediate and deep coverage to another level as well then he is a keeper for sure.

He's always been a good tackler on the edge, so he really just has a few things to work on to become a solid all around player.

And tbh he looked better than j Jo did last game. J Jo will make his plays though.

Rey
08-16-2012, 02:19 AM
Again, I don't think KJ will be any great shakes, but I do think with the current staff, he can be very servicable.

My biggest issue with Kareem has been the fact that he didn't make a lot of plays on the ball.

If he can start doing that consistently I think he can actually be more than serviceable.

He looked really confident out there. Better body posture than I've ever seen from him.

I remember his rookie year when he was always tugging on his damn face mask. Like his helmet didn't fit right or something. He looked completely uncomfortable. I haven't seen him doing that lately.

He looks like a real player now.

kwayshauntay
08-16-2012, 04:04 AM
I don't know why I thought this was near the goalline, but here's Kareem's play of the day. Nearly a Troy Nolan INT, but just a few milliseconds too slow. Good read, didn't get confused by the 3 WR bunch and he covered the open man. Bravo Kjax!


I liked the way they executed the coverage pre-snap, and just after the snap.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--6KQRBMH-DU/UCytw6ntfNI/AAAAAAAAAKQ/IheOw0X3uBk/s1600/kareem+jackson.gif

Manning is manned up on Olsen, while it looks like KJ and McCain are in a matchup zone.

With the receivers crisscrossing, it looked like there was potential for some confusion there, but KJ and McCain managed to switch off seamlessly.

fiasco west
08-16-2012, 05:16 AM
I'm really not surprised. I saw a decent CB last year, I saw improvement from year one to year two. This is why you give players a 3-4 year period to evaluate. That's all you ask for from young players is improvement year to year, that usually means they are working hard and they want to get better.

I guess we'll see, it's only pre-season. But I think he was good enough last year (obviously, Kareem still played a big role on one of the best secondaries in the NFL last year.) then any improvement is huge.

So far Kareem has only been improving his game, not regressing. Not saying the sky is the limit I'm just saying that's usually a very good thing for a player.

Nice to have the Kareem Jackson thread back!

RunninRaven
08-16-2012, 06:54 AM
The goal line play to me was more impressive than the one in the animated GIF posted above. For one because it was in the red zone. Two because he was on Steve Smith, a pretty damn good WR. It was a longer route too (though not the deep route that we were used to seeing him burned on in previous years) so his coverage needed to stay tight longer. KJax got his hands on the ball on that short route above, but the only reason he didn't get his hands on the ball on the goal line pass was because Cam threw it where neither he nor Smith could get the ball. To me, it looked like had Cam thrown it where Steve Smith would have had a chance, then Kareem would have had as good or better chance to pull it in because he was RIGHT there. That really impressed me.

Premier
08-16-2012, 09:29 AM
KJ made strides last yr. (He didn't fall down every time a WR made a double move)

He still wasn't good enough to beat out Allen. (Scary thought)

kareem was the starter and on the field in the 4th quarter, that would certainly indicate that he beat out allen..

Corrosion
08-16-2012, 09:35 AM
I don't know why I thought this was near the goalline, but here's Kareem's play of the day. Nearly a Troy Nolan INT, but just a few milliseconds too slow. Good read, didn't get confused by the 3 WR bunch and he covered the open man. Bravo Kjax!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--6KQRBMH-DU/UCytw6ntfNI/AAAAAAAAAKQ/IheOw0X3uBk/s1600/kareem+jackson.gif




Nearly a Kjax Pick Six ..... :aggressive:

steelbtexan
08-16-2012, 09:52 AM
kareem was the starter and on the field in the 4th quarter, that would certainly indicate that he beat out allen..

They split time and no KJ wasn't always on the field in the 4th qtr. KJ has improved but lets see him at the grownups table. (Brady/Manning/Rodgers/Stafford/Cutler) rather than the kiddie table (Dan O/Gabbert/Hasselbeck/Flacco/Campbell).

I'm not ready to crown him a middle of the road CB right now. Much less a top tier CB some on the MB have said he has become. Really, to this point what has KJ done to deserve that kind of accolades?

Corrosion
08-16-2012, 09:58 AM
Really, to this point what has KJ done to deserve that kind of accolades?

Nothing .... a preseason game is nothing more than a glorified practice.


In my best AI impersonation: Practice man .... practice.

The Medic01
08-16-2012, 10:05 AM
They split time and no KJ wasn't always on the field in the 4th qtr. KJ has improved but lets see him at the grownups table. (Brady/Manning/Rodgers/Stafford/Cutler) rather than the kiddie table (Dan O/Gabbert/Hasselbeck/Flacco/Campbell).

I'm not ready to crown him a middle of the road CB right now. Much less a top tier CB some on the MB have said he has become. Really, to this point what has KJ done to deserve that kind of accolades?

Who's calling him a top tier CB?

jradMIT
08-16-2012, 10:05 AM
I agree. Kareem plays the run very well and has always been solid around the line of scrimmage. If he can get his head around and make plays on the ball down the field, he can be a solid all around corner.





Kareem has been good on the short stuff since his rookie year, but that play he made last Saturday jumping that pass was not something weve seen a lot of.

Usually he's in good position on this type of routes, but it looks like now he has gotten to the point where he makes plays on the ball.

If Kareem can take his intermediate and deep coverage to another level as well then he is a keeper for sure.

He's always been a good tackler on the edge, so he really just has a few things to work on to become a solid all around player.

And tbh he looked better than j Jo did last game. J Jo will make his plays though.

badboy
08-16-2012, 10:33 AM
I liked the way they executed the coverage pre-snap, and just after the snap.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--6KQRBMH-DU/UCytw6ntfNI/AAAAAAAAAKQ/IheOw0X3uBk/s1600/kareem+jackson.gif

Manning is manned up on Olsen, while it looks like KJ and McCain are in a matchup zone.

With the receivers crisscrossing, it looked like there was potential for some confusion there, but KJ and McCain managed to switch off seamlessly.

Agreed but if Olsen had done a button hook coming back he would have been wide open.

76Texan
08-16-2012, 12:12 PM
I don't know about that...

Well, not from my perspective at least...

I thought Chris Meyers had talent since day one. I thought he fit what we needed out of the position to a T.

I think Kareem has just flat out gotten better. Maybe we can say the same thing about Meyers, bu tI think the improvement in Kareem is more dramatic...

JMO...

Well, Myers already had 3 years in the league before he joined the Texans in 08.

He didn't get to play on the line until his last year in Denver, so if he had talent since day one, we wouldn't know.

Myers now have had 7 years in the league as compared to just two for Jackson.

If Kareem's improvement is as dramatic as you think, it bodes very well for him and his future, so that's all good. :texanbill:

Perki-Perk
08-16-2012, 12:51 PM
I can't wait to witness the crow feast this year. I, like many others, have constantly said to have patience. Kareem's last 3 or so games last year, he looked very serviceable to almost above average. Seeing the first preseason game, I'd say he's still on track for continued improvement. I know many of you are man enough to own up to your Crow stew you've been brewing, and by the end of the season, you will be feasting on crow like the 2 weeks of turkey following Thanksgiving!

Perki-Perk
08-16-2012, 12:57 PM
Agreed but if Olsen had done a button hook coming back he would have been wide open.

And he would have not got the first down, or lost yardage, as KJax would have closed out just the same. I notice a lot of times our db's don't press, and they'll give you a little room. You hook back and they will come up and make the play. If your "IF" scenario would have played out, it would have still been to our advantage.

Texan_Touchdown
08-16-2012, 01:37 PM
I love how Kareem broke to the ball on that play. Granted it was just one play but it showed that he's starting to understand and anticipate routes. Remember he's a great tackler for a corner back and is good at getting off blocks and stopping the run. Brandon Harris made a few plays and with that competition it will be interesting who makes this 53 man roster.

thunderkyss
08-16-2012, 02:40 PM
I'm not ready to crown him a middle of the road CB right now. Much less a top tier CB some on the MB have said he has become.

I think you're seeing things.

badboy
08-16-2012, 03:40 PM
I'm really not surprised. I saw a decent CB last year, I saw improvement from year one to year two. This is why you give players a 3-4 year period to evaluate. That's all you ask for from young players is improvement year to year, that usually means they are working hard and they want to get better.

I guess we'll see, it's only pre-season. But I think he was good enough last year (obviously, Kareem still played a big role on one of the best secondaries in the NFL last year.) then any improvement is huge.

So far Kareem has only been improving his game, not regressing. Not saying the sky is the limit I'm just saying that's usually a very good thing for a player.

Nice to have the Kareem Jackson thread back!When you are trying to have a winning season, the first round pick needs to contribute immediately. Now we have a deeper team and can allow high picks like Posey to sit and learn. Two different scenarios. I truly believe Wade Phillips would not have selected KJ if he had been the DC. Guess we never will know.

HuttoKarl
08-16-2012, 04:25 PM
Does anyone remember when Duane Brown was out there his first couple years and all the crap slung on message boards about him?


I do.


I don't care how "NFL ready" a guy is....there's some adjustment time and being surrounded by vets like he was last season can only help KJ improve.

76Texan
08-16-2012, 04:32 PM
When you are trying to have a winning season, the first round pick needs to contribute immediately. Now we have a deeper team and can allow high picks like Posey to sit and learn. Two different scenarios. I truly believe Wade Phillips would not have selected KJ if he had been the DC. Guess we never will know.

Remember Mike Jenkins, Wade's #25th pick in 2008.
He started 3 games as the nickel back in his rookie year.

Here's what a Cowboy fan think of him in 2010:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1VBcrpCAaI

LOL!

2slik4u
08-16-2012, 09:15 PM
http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2012/08/texans-kareem-jackson-showing-a-lot-of-improvement/



http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Texans-see-major-improvement-in-CB-Kareem-Jackson/5bd0e086-1bf4-4186-9772-da47776ae8ab



http://houston.cbslocal.com/2012/08/14/is-kareem-jackson-improving/



Soooooooooo, it's being talked about but why do I smell smoke and have the feeling something is being blown up my butt? Is Jackson really improving? Have dogs and cats started living together in harmony? What's really going on denizens of texanstalk?

Also, what do we make of him now judged against his contemporaries who went near where he did in the draft of that year (Kyle Wilson, Devin McCourty)?

KJ has improved ten fold from his rookie year. Its a wonder what a good pash rush can do for your CB's.

Kyle Wilson still cannot over take the #2 CB spot from Cromartie, who is extremely over rated at his position.

McCourty is good.

drs23
08-16-2012, 09:20 PM
Remember Mike Jenkins, Wade's #25th pick in 2008.
He started 3 games as the nickel back in his rookie year.

Here's what a Cowboy fan think of him in 2010:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1VBcrpCAaI

LOL!

That was some funny stuff. That 'Boys fan was pissed!

MSR

steelbtexan
08-16-2012, 09:30 PM
I can't wait to witness the crow feast this year. I, like many others, have constantly said to have patience. Kareem's last 3 or so games last year, he looked very serviceable to almost above average. Seeing the first preseason game, I'd say he's still on track for continued improvement. I know many of you are man enough to own up to your Crow stew you've been brewing, and by the end of the season, you will be feasting on crow like the 2 weeks of turkey following Thanksgiving!

I hope you're right.

If you are, I would like my crow smothered in gravy please. LOL

thunderkyss
08-16-2012, 11:36 PM
McCourty is good.

But he looked like crap in 2011. He is the only rookie corner I can think of that contributed as much to his team's success as a rookie in at least 10 years.

Guys like Patrick Peterson, & Joe Haden... both top 10 picks have struggled since joining the league.

There's no doubt in my mind if the 2010 defense looked like the 2011 defense (or even the 2009 defense) the perception of Kj would be much different around here.

We lost our DL pass rushing rotation before the first half of the first game, Bullman was done for the season in training camp, Barwin went down early game one. Cushing got pregnant, Demeco tore his Achilles when Cushing got back.

Kj is going to be fine, I have no doubt in that.

Hey, didn't Wade draft Ball??

Allstar
08-19-2012, 01:27 AM
Brandon Jacobs posted this on Twitter:

Brandon Jacobs ‏@gatorboy45

Big ups to Kareem Jackson from the Texans he is a classy guy, he came to the the X-ray room to wish me a speedy recovery.

blitz90
08-19-2012, 07:26 AM
Being afraid to lay a lick on a big back has never been a weakness of Jackson's.

Glad to see he went and checked on the big guy, stay classy Kareem.

kingh99
08-19-2012, 08:45 AM
Kareem Jackson suffered from poor coaching and poor scheme his first year. He's a very good CB now. Not great, but very good.

EllisUnit
08-19-2012, 09:23 AM
Brandon Jacobs posted this on Twitter:

Brandon Jacobs ‏@gatorboy45

Big ups to Kareem Jackson from the Texans he is a classy guy, he came to the the X-ray room to wish me a speedy recovery.

yeah he looked concerned on the sideline

hookinreds
08-19-2012, 09:43 AM
He's never been bad when the play is in front of him except for too much cushion. I think that was a result of being beat on the deeper routes and his inability to turn and find the ball. So far he appears to have improved a little on that bot he hasn't had a good QB pick on him yet.

gary
08-19-2012, 11:58 AM
Very nice of Jackson I hope his good play continues.

badboy
08-19-2012, 09:46 PM
Brandon Jacobs posted this on Twitter:

Brandon Jacobs ‏@gatorboy45

Big ups to Kareem Jackson from the Texans he is a classy guy, he came to the the X-ray room to wish me a speedy recovery. I like that KJ did that. thanks for posting.

417Texan
08-21-2012, 08:04 AM
I thought KJ was a very good cb last year and I expect he will be even better this year. In fact do not be shocked if he makes pro bowl.

DBCooper
08-21-2012, 08:30 AM
I thought KJ was a very good cb last year and I expect he will be even better this year. In fact do not be shocked if he makes pro bowl.

No, that would be shocking!

Lol

badboy
08-21-2012, 08:55 AM
I thought KJ was a very good cb last year and I expect he will be even better this year. In fact do not be shocked if he makes pro bowl.I am shocked that you mentioned it.

Quick II Draw
08-21-2012, 05:35 PM
I thought KJ was a very good cb last year and I expect he will be even better this year. In fact do not be shocked if he makes pro bowl.

:homer:

IBleedTexans
08-21-2012, 06:03 PM
I thought KJ was a very good cb last year and I expect he will be even better this year. In fact do not be shocked if he makes pro bowl.

Now I like me some KJ but , "Come on Mann"!:spin:

Cutblock
08-21-2012, 06:05 PM
If KJ makes the Pro Bowl, even HE will be shocked.:doot:

I'm reserving judgement on him until I see whether he has learned to turn his head around on long routes.

EllisUnit
08-21-2012, 07:51 PM
KJ has done better reseriving further judgment for reg season

Scooter
08-22-2012, 02:04 PM
i think jackson's right on schedule. he got abused his first season, but that's hard to blame kareem for. terrible coaching, no pass rush, and an asinine scheme set him up to fail. and let's not forget that despite being essentially a senior in college he was one of the old guys in the secondary and the top guy his rookie year. the kid didnt stand a chance.

last year was essentially a "do over" of his rookie year with real coaching and a great scheme, and he's steadily and noticeably improving. i expect by the end of this season he goes from an average starter to a strong #2 cb and would even make several rosters as a #1. he's built so well for wade's defense that he's just going to get better and better.

kwayshauntay
08-25-2012, 07:34 PM
Welp.


That didn't last long.

TexansBlood
08-25-2012, 07:36 PM
Ouch.

fikster
08-25-2012, 07:36 PM
Never saw ball twice on first two drives. He's going back to old habits.

disaacks3
08-25-2012, 07:37 PM
Never saw ball twice on first two drives. He's going back to old habits.

Yep, the head isn't coming around...at all. Slight push off by the WR on the TD, but he probably didn't need it.

TexansFanatic
08-25-2012, 07:39 PM
We are being lied to. Kareem was a first round bust and the Texans refuse to admit it.

Yo, Coach----please cut your losses.

TexansSeminole
08-25-2012, 07:50 PM
You guys are unbelievable. One day it's "he sucks," next day "he's very good." I guess we are back to "he sucks."

He will improve with good coaching. He is still going through that process.

EllisUnit
08-25-2012, 07:52 PM
You guys are unbelievable. One day it's "he sucks," next day "he's very good." I guess we are back to "he sucks."

He will improve with good coaching. He is still going through that process.

i think everyone can agree he still needs to work on locating the ball.

TexansSeminole
08-25-2012, 07:56 PM
i think everyone can agree he still needs to work on locating the ball.

That's been his big weakness. He's improved in regards to sticking with guys down field. Now he just needs to locate.

Put him in a position in which everything is in front of him and he is very good though.

EllisUnit
08-25-2012, 08:04 PM
That's been his big weakness. He's improved in regards to sticking with guys down field. Now he just needs to locate.

Put him in a position in which everything is in front of him and he is very good though.

hes a zone CB not a man

TexansSeminole
08-25-2012, 08:11 PM
hes a zone CB not a man

It's not that cut and dry. His strengths right now are more suitable for zone. He just needs to work on locating the ball and positioning down field and he will improve in man. He has already improved drastically in that area. He is a work in progress, just like all NFL players.

Kareem Jackson is going to be fine.

EllisUnit
08-25-2012, 08:21 PM
It's not that cut and dry. His strengths right now are more suitable for zone. He just needs to work on locating the ball and positioning down field and he will improve in man. He has already improved drastically in that area. He is a work in progress, just like all NFL players.

Kareem Jackson is going to be fine.

3rd season :foottap:

TexansSeminole
08-25-2012, 08:26 PM
3rd season :foottap:

He has two seasons under his belt. One with poor coaching, one with great coaching. He is just starting his third.

We'll see how he looks come playoff time.

Rey
08-25-2012, 08:37 PM
It's not that cut and dry. His strengths right now are more suitable for zone. He just needs to work on locating the ball and positioning down field and he will improve in man. He has already improved drastically in that area. He is a work in progress, just like all NFL players.

Kareem Jackson is going to be fine.

Being good at playing the ball in the air is usually something you are good at or you just aren't.

I'm hoping Kareem will get better in this aspect, but I'm not holding my breath.

TexansSeminole
08-25-2012, 08:41 PM
Being good at playing the ball in the air is usually something you are good at or you just aren't.

I'm hoping Kareem will get better in this aspect, but I'm not holding my breath.

I wouldn't say his problem is playing the ball in the air. His problem is timing his turnaround. He can play it when he sees it. It's a pretty common problem corners have.

I fully expect everyone to fry him though as they always have. When he puts it all together, they'll shut up as usual.

Rey
08-25-2012, 08:48 PM
I wouldn't say his problem is playing the ball in the air. His problem is timing his turnaround. He can play it when he sees it. It's a pretty common problem corners have.

I fully expect everyone to fry him though as they always have. When he puts it all together, they'll shut up as usual.

That's part of playing the ball in the air. And I disagree with your assessment anyways. Kareem lacks a few skills that would aide him in down field coverage.

And no one has fried him in here. Pointing out errors and mistakes is what people do on message boards.

TexansSeminole
08-25-2012, 08:49 PM
That's part of playing the ball in the air.

And no one has fried him in here. Pointing out errors and mistakes is what people do on message boards.

Not since this season has started, outside of one or two posters. But it will come, trust me on that.

And you are trying to argue semantics. "Playing the ball in the air" to me means how you adjust when you locate the ball with your eyes. Locating the ball with your eyes is different IMO.

eriadoc
08-25-2012, 10:05 PM
I have to say, I'm very disappointed that Harris was a 2nd round pick and isn't pushing Jackson, or really anyone else, for that matter.

thunderkyss
08-25-2012, 11:56 PM
We are being lied to. Kareem was a first round bust and the Texans refuse to admit it.

Yo, Coach----please cut your losses.

I still don't believe we can say that yet. WAtch the guy, he's very talented. Stupid, but talented. He struggled today. No denying that. It's the coaches job to figure out why & fix it.

To me it's like buying a car, sometimes the car you get doesn't perform exactly the way you e pecked it to. Unless you're rich, you're usually stuck with it until a better opt ok n comes along. That's where we are now. We've done spent our wad on a secondary, high dollar FAs (x2) & a first round pick.

I don't think anyone is trying to pull the wool over our eyes, just trying to do the best with what we've got. We get JJ Watt & Cushing back, Kareem will be a small problem again.

wolf123
08-26-2012, 12:11 AM
I have to say, I'm very disappointed that Harris was a 2nd round pick and isn't pushing Jackson, or really anyone else, for that matter.

This is his first training camp. Brice is one of the best nickle backs in the league. Fans need to adjust their expectation for draft picks now, because the texans are now talented enough to draft players at positions that there will be a need in future years and maybe not an impact player their first years.

Brice-Harris
Myers-Ben Jones
Antonio Smith-Crick
Eric Winston-Newton
Caldwell-Brooks

High quality potential replacement for a lot of positions.

thunderkyss
08-26-2012, 12:20 AM
This is his first training camp. Brice is one of the best nickle backs in the league.

McCain has the nickel locked up, we know that. It would be nice to see Harris tAking the snAps Ball is getting. Then we can tell ourselves that he is on Jackson's heels. As it stands we're in deep doodoo if something happens to any of our CBs becAuse last years second round pick isn't getting time with the first lot seconds team defense. All we got is Ball....

Well, McMannis appears to be getting time behind Jjo.

Premier
08-26-2012, 12:32 AM
i want to know what could kareem have done to better defend that pass.. i mean im watching the replay right now. kareem had him covered, i mean blanketed and brees made a good throw and lance moore is just a bit more athletic than kareem. if kareem turns early to locate the ball he probably loses moore and gives up an easier TD, he sticks to him and brees puts the ball in the air where only moore can get it..

i just think moore owns kareem, theres no other way to put it.

i wonder how joseph would have matched up with moore on the same play..

kareem needs a new gameplan when guarding this man i guess, jam him up harder at the line is the only remedy i see. if kareems on an island with moore, moore is going to win, hes faster and more athletic.

wolf123
08-26-2012, 12:35 AM
i want to know what could kareem have done to better defend that pass.. i mean im watching the replay right now. kareem had him covered, i mean blanketed and brees made a good throw and lance moore is just a bit more athletic than kareem. if kareem turns to locate the ball he probably loses moore and gives up an easier TD, he sticks to him and brees puts the ball in the air where only moore can get it..

i just think moore owns kareem, theres no other way to put it.

i wonder how joseph would have matched up with moore on the same play..

kareem needs a new gameplan when guarding this man i guess, jam him up harder at the line is the only remedy i see. if kareems on an island with moore, moore is going to win, he faster and more athletic.

I've went back and watched the whole game and kareem really didn't have a bad night at all. Are pass rush was terrible most of the game, couldn't guard screens and Graham was other worldly.:kitten:

bhsman
08-26-2012, 12:37 AM
The Saints were killing it with the 3-step drops, it really took the bite out of the pass rush.

Corrosion
08-26-2012, 12:47 AM
The Saints were killing it with the 3-step drops, it really took the bite out of the pass rush.

Their OL is really freakin good too .... I was impressed with the way they handled the rush even on longer developing plays , seemed to always funnel everything backside allowing for Brees to step up. When he avoided pressure he didnt go backwards , he went forward or to the side.

76Texan
08-26-2012, 12:53 AM
i want to know what could kareem have done to better defend that pass.. i mean im watching the replay right now. kareem had him covered, i mean blanketed and brees made a good throw and lance moore is just a bit more athletic than kareem. if kareem turns early to locate the ball he probably loses moore and gives up an easier TD, he sticks to him and brees puts the ball in the air where only moore can get it..

i just think moore owns kareem, theres no other way to put it.

i wonder how joseph would have matched up with moore on the same play..

kareem needs a new gameplan when guarding this man i guess, jam him up harder at the line is the only remedy i see. if kareems on an island with moore, moore is going to win, hes faster and more athletic.

This, and especially the underlined part.

A DB should turn his head only when he's in good position (in stride or ahead of the receiver), otherwise he will only loose seperation.

We talked about how Allen was in the trail position on a post route last season.
The QB hit the receiver on the shoulder pad, allowing Allen to grab the receiver's arm (barely) and not letting him pull in the pass.

Allen never turned his head (for the same reason).
If that ball was placed perfectly like the one Brees threw, it would have a long TD pass "given up" by Allen.

I also mentioned a 53 yd TD pass Allen gave up to Wallace (when Allen was with the Dolphin).

Allen was also in trail position, but as soon as he tried to turn his head, he lost Wallace and gave up the TD.

Corrosion
08-26-2012, 12:56 AM
i want to know what could kareem have done to better defend that pass.. i mean im watching the replay right now. kareem had him covered, i mean blanketed and brees made a good throw and lance moore is just a bit more athletic than kareem. if kareem turns early to locate the ball he probably loses moore and gives up an easier TD, he sticks to him and brees puts the ball in the air where only moore can get it..

i just think moore owns kareem, theres no other way to put it.

i wonder how joseph would have matched up with moore on the same play..

kareem needs a new gameplan when guarding this man i guess, jam him up harder at the line is the only remedy i see. if kareems on an island with moore, moore is going to win, hes faster and more athletic.

That was a hell of a throw ....

76Texan
08-26-2012, 12:59 AM
One example of locating the ball is the long pass play Ball gave up the long pass in the Panthers game.

He had the receiver pinned to the side line and he was ahead of the receiver.
He was in great position but never turned his head and therefore gave up the catch.

An example of when not to turn his head was the pass Ball gave up to A Jenkins in the Niners game.

He gave Jenkins too much room along the side line.
When he turned his head, he lost Jenkins who veered to the outside to catch the pass.
Only the receiver knows exactly where the ball is going; the DB doesn't

wolf123
08-26-2012, 01:01 AM
Their OL is really freakin good too .... I was impressed with the way they handled the rush even on longer developing plays , seemed to always funnel everything backside allowing for Brees to step up. When he avoided pressure he didnt go backwards , he went forward or to the side.

Brees is a magician in the pocket...

76Texan
08-26-2012, 01:10 AM
Brees is a magician in the pocket...

Brees can have his yards, that's OK.

If Holiday didn't give them the cheap TD, we would have been ahead 24-17.
Our offense outscored them! :whip:

Premier
08-26-2012, 02:21 AM
kareems mental clock needs to be triggered a second sooner... this picture speaks volumes...

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/2012/09000d5d82b45aa1.jpg

Rey
08-26-2012, 02:27 AM
Kareem has struggled with the long ball. I'm not going to over analyze it.

He just hasn't been good making plays on the ball down the field.

He's good to really good with stuff in front of him, but down the field he struggles.

I'd like to see him play more cover two honestly. Maybe wade can design something where Kareem plays some more short zones where he excels.

kwayshauntay
08-26-2012, 02:41 AM
kareem needs a new gameplan when guarding this man i guess, jam him up harder at the line is the only remedy i see. if kareems on an island with moore, moore is going to win, hes faster and more athletic.

the amazing part about this is that moore was undrafted while kareem was a first rounder.

76Texan
08-26-2012, 03:23 AM
On the plus side, he made that shoe string tackle that got the RB Ivory stumbling for Quin to force the fumble.

Jackson did turn his head around when he was in stride with Henderson earlier in the game on a long ball.

A good throw and good catch was all there is to it.
The CB doesn't know if the receiver will run toward the post or cut toward the pylon or go straight or go for the backshoulder fade like that one.

That was a hell of a back-shoulder fade.
There's no way a DB can turn his head on that play.

Calling that a struggle is simply over-reacting, I'm sorry to say.

bckey
08-26-2012, 07:02 AM
I hope KJ doesn't try and cover Calvin Johnson on Thanksgiving day. That would really ruin my day of joy and bliss. Instead of laying on the couch dozing off with a full belly of tryptophan, I'll be consuming large amounts of alcohol and throwing stuff at the tv while screaming long tirades of foul (it is turkey day) language.

b0ng
08-26-2012, 08:34 AM
I hope KJ doesn't try and cover Calvin Johnson on Thanksgiving day. That would really ruin my day of joy and bliss. Instead of laying on the couch dozing off with a full belly of tryptophan, I'll be consuming large amounts of alcohol and throwing stuff at the tv while screaming long tirades of foul (it is turkey day) language.

Calvin Johnson is a physical freak and is going to provide match up problems with every secondary he faces this year. I would be more upset if someone like Titus Young does that to our secondary.

thunderkyss
08-26-2012, 09:01 AM
if kareem turns early to locate the ball he probably loses moore and gives up an easier TD

This, and especially the underlined part.

A DB should turn his head only when he's in good position (in stride or ahead of the receiver), otherwise he will only loose seperation.


Unless you've got a coach that knows what he's talking about. Once the ball is in the air, who cares what that receiver is doing? A DB should read the man, his eyes, face, hands, hips... use those clues to determine when the ball is in the air, turn & locate it... doesn't matter where the WR is, play the ball.

Now that should only be one of the techniques used by a CB to do his job. It should be used frequently, but there are cases where it isn't practical. I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I'm sure there is one.

CloakNNNdagger
08-26-2012, 09:03 AM
Kareem has struggled with the long ball. I'm not going to over analyze it.

He just hasn't been good making plays on the ball down the field.

He's good to really good with stuff in front of him, but down the field he struggles.

I'd like to see him play more cover two honestly. Maybe wade can design something where Kareem plays some more short zones where he excels.

Brees destroys cover 2.

EllisUnit
08-26-2012, 09:16 AM
kareems mental clock needs to be triggered a second sooner... this picture speaks volumes...

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/2012/09000d5d82b45aa1.jpg

Yeah its almost as if he just looks back to make the coaches and fans think he's trying to locate the ball. That is hilarious though TBH

EllisUnit
08-26-2012, 09:20 AM
All this cant keep up with the WR if he tries to locate the ball stuff is B.S. J.J does it fine, Aaron Glenn did it fine, Reeves, Aso, All top notch CBs can keep looking back trying to locate the ball and not lose his WR. But yet KJ cant ?!?!?!?

Hmmm do we need to hang a handy cap sign on the front of his helmet since he cant do what all the greats can do. :spin:

bckey
08-26-2012, 09:20 AM
Calvin Johnson is a physical freak and is going to provide match up problems with every secondary he faces this year. I would be more upset if someone like Titus Young does that to our secondary.

He will. KJ looks like he was mentored by Jaques Reeves. And yes Bong I know Calvin Johnson is a physical freak.

wolf123
08-26-2012, 09:27 AM
All this cant keep up with the WR if he tries to locate the ball stuff is B.S. J.J does it fine, Aaron Glenn did it fine, Reeves, Aso, All top notch CBs can keep looking back trying to locate the ball and not lose his WR. But yet KJ cant ?!?!?!?

Hmmm do we need to hang a handy cap sign on the front of his helmet since he cant do what all the greats can do. :spin:

Clearly never watched Reeves play....:kitten:

Rey
08-26-2012, 09:27 AM
Brees destroys cover 2.

Good thing we don't play Brees for 16 games a year then.

EllisUnit
08-26-2012, 09:41 AM
Clearly never watched Reeves play....:kitten:

:foottap: is he the only one u disagree with ? You get my point.

EllisUnit
08-26-2012, 09:41 AM
Good thing we don't play Brees for 16 games a year then.

Good thing we dont play cover 2 for 16 games all game long then.

TejasTom
08-26-2012, 09:55 AM
Clearly never watched Reeves play....:kitten:

I think EU meant Revis.

EllisUnit
08-26-2012, 09:57 AM
I think EU meant Revis.

:vincepalm: thank you. My mistake

76Texan
08-26-2012, 10:38 AM
Unless you've got a coach that knows what he's talking about. Once the ball is in the air, who cares what that receiver is doing? A DB should read the man, his eyes, face, hands, hips... use those clues to determine when the ball is in the air, turn & locate it... doesn't matter where the WR is, play the ball.

Now that should only be one of the techniques used by a CB to do his job. It should be used frequently, but there are cases where it isn't practical. I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I'm sure there is one.
Go look at these 4 plays - all in the second quarter.
The defenders were also in trail position.
None of them attempted to turn his head to look at the ball.
That includes D. Manning, Quin, and B. James (twice);


1-10-HST 33 (12:51) (Shotgun) D.Brees pass incomplete deep middle to J.Graham.
PENALTY on HST-B.James, Defensive Pass Interference, 22 yards, enforced at HST 33 - No Play.

1-10-HST 28 (7:19) (Shotgun) D.Brees pass incomplete deep right to J.Graham (D.Manning).
Manning played the same technique I mentioned and was able to defend the pass; even though it may have been Demps who was the one that knocked the ball out.

3-3-HST 21 (6:36) (Shotgun) D.Brees pass incomplete deep left to J.Graham (B.James) [M.Alexander].
On this one, James may have been a little early (and probably made contact with the TE before the ball arrived) but at any rate, he also played the same technique I mentioned and was able to defend the pass.

1-10-NO 23 (2:04) (Shotgun) D.Brees pass deep right to J.Graham pushed ob at HST 20 for 57 yards (D.Manning) .
Penalty on NO-J.Graham, Illegal Touch Pass, declined.
PENALTY on HST-T.Jamison, Personal Foul, 15 yards, enforced at NO 23 - No Play.
On this one, Quin wasn't able to defend the pass but he was right there (but missed the tackle - about 20 yards from the LOS.)

[B]At the end of the day, they all played the same technique as Jackson when they were in the same trail position.
That is what they were taught to do.


On the other side of the ball, on one play the CB P Robinson was using his help inside. It's OK for him to try to locate the ball, he was ahead of AJ.
But he did it too early (before the receiver makes the break).
AJ got immediate seperation from him. Luckily for him, the safety made a good read and reacted quickly to come up and break up the pass.

3-12-NO 39 (10:26) (Shotgun) M.Schaub pass incomplete deep left to A.Johnson (M.Jenkins).

texanhead08
08-26-2012, 10:40 AM
Kareem was in good position on the TD to Moore, but Brees made a perfect throw and that was a great catch as well. He was also just a hair late to break up the pass on the TD to Graham too and that wasn't his man but he saw the play and tried to jump the play. He will be fine we won't be facing a offense like the Saints all year.

76Texan
08-26-2012, 10:45 AM
kareems mental clock needs to be triggered a second sooner... this picture speaks volumes...

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/2012/09000d5d82b45aa1.jpg

That was supposed to be a deep out but Brees threw the ball a tad early and too short (due to pressure); even the receiver didn't expect the ball to be there.

All i know is that when I watched a coaching video, they prefer the ball to be throw between 35 to 40 yards on such a route.

It's understandable that Jackson looked much higher up in the air if he expected the ball to be thrown deeper (and thefore with a higher trajectory).
But since the ball was thrown short and low, it went below his eyesight.

Rey
08-26-2012, 11:19 AM
That was supposed to be a deep out but Brees threw the ball a tad early and too short (due to pressure); even the receiver didn't expect the ball to be there.

All i know is that when I watched a coaching video, they prefer the ball to be throw between 35 to 40 yards on such a route.

It's understandable that Jackson looked much higher up in the air if he expected the ball to be thrown deeper (and thefore with a higher trajectory).
But since the ball was thrown short and low, it went below his eyesight.

You do understand that different coaches have different ideas on how things should be done right? You can't watch a couple coaching videos or go to a clinic and deduce how any given team wants to do things.

You are making excuses for Kareem instead of just plainly saying he didn't do a good job there feeling when the ball was coming and locating it.

The part about him expecting one thing and the qb and wr doing something else is hogwash. That's a part if football. This isn't practice. That's not Vance Joseph simulating a qb, and that's not Brice McCain simulating a wr. A football game is not a controlled environment.
Sometimes stuff is going to happen. All the routes and throws aren't going to be exactly where you expect them to be. Part of being a good ball player is reacting in the heat of the moment. If all the balls were thrown where he expected them to be then that would make his job super easy wouldn't it?

Kareem has seemed to have gotten even better on routes in front of him, but he still looks to be lacking when he has to turn his hips, run and defend passes down the field. There is no two ways around that. He needs to continue to improve there.

That's not ragging on him or anything. He's showed tremendous growth, but this is an area if his game that he needs to keep working on. Period.

TexansSeminole
08-26-2012, 11:27 AM
All this cant keep up with the WR if he tries to locate the ball stuff is B.S. J.J does it fine, Aaron Glenn did it fine, Reeves, Aso, All top notch CBs can keep looking back trying to locate the ball and not lose his WR. But yet KJ cant ?!?!?!?

Hmmm do we need to hang a handy cap sign on the front of his helmet since he cant do what all the greats can do. :spin:

Common sense would tell you that once you quit watching the receiver, you are at a disadvantage in regards to reacting to his movements. Common sense.

The greats in man coverage understand timing. They understand when to turn around and quit reacting to the receiver in order to locate the ball to make a play on it. They look for tells in regards to how long the play as lasted for, the receiver's eyes, his footwork, etc to determine when is best to turn and locate. That's the main difference between Kareem Jackson and the great man coverage corners in this league.

Some guys have it immediately, some guys take more time to develop it, some guys never do. I think Kareem has shown an ability to grow and learn in his short time here. I have confidence that he will get better at it. He will never be "one of the greats" in man coverage. Those are the types that understand it immediately. Take Revis or Aso for example.

Kareem is a great tackler and, as Rey said, is very good when the play is in front of him. He isn't going to let a receiver run a slant and break his tackle to go 25+ very often. He consistently makes that tackle and keeps it at 10 yards or less. That's very important in the NFL.

People that expect Kareem to be "one of the greats" just because he was a first rounder are unrealistic in their expectations. It's doubtful that he will ever be at that level.

76Texan
08-26-2012, 11:28 AM
You do understand that different coaches have different ideas on how things should be done right? You can't watch a couple coaching videos or go to a clinic and deduce how any given team wants to do things.

You are making excuses for Kareem instead of just plainly saying he didn't do a good job there feeling when the ball was coming and locating it.

The part about him expecting one thing and the qb and wr doing something else is hogwash. That's a part if football. This isn't practice. That's not Vance Joseph simulating a qb, and that's not Brice McCain simulating a wr. A football game is not a controlled environment.
Sometimes stuff is going to happen. All the routes and throws aren't going to be exactly where you expect them to be. Part of being a good ball player is reacting in the heat of the moment. If all the balls were thrown where he expected them to be then that would make his job super easy wouldn't it?

Kareem has seemed to have gotten even better on routes in front of him, but he still looks to be lacking when he has to turn his hips, run and defend passes down the field. There is no two ways around that. He needs to continue to improve there.

That's not ragging on him or anything. He's showed tremendous growth, but this is an area if his game that he needs to keep working on. Period.

There were only two complaints on him in this game.

1. On the incompletion to Henderson, he did turn his head.
Now people complain that he turned his head late.

2. On the TD pass to Moore, he played the exact same technique the other Texans defenders were playing. Why don't people go gripe about all those players. And actually, they should go yell at Vance Joseph and Wade Phillips for teaching the guys that technique.

EllisUnit
08-26-2012, 11:30 AM
That was supposed to be a deep out but Brees threw the ball a tad early and too short (due to pressure); even the receiver didn't expect the ball to be there.

All i know is that when I watched a coaching video, they prefer the ball to be throw between 35 to 40 yards on such a route.

It's understandable that Jackson looked much higher up in the air if he expected the ball to be thrown deeper (and thefore with a higher trajectory).
But since the ball was thrown short and low, it went below his eyesight.

wow was supposed to be, i love how u can get in the mind of everyone on every play and know what supposed to happen. Its not the fact of where he was looking its the fact of when he was looking. Lets not pretend this is the first time KJ hasnt been able to locate the ball. What about the TD he gave up where were his eyes then ? Looking right in the #s of the WR, and with pass interference.

I agree KJ has done much better SO FAR but come on excuses as to why he didnt locate the ball.......come on man.

EllisUnit
08-26-2012, 11:32 AM
There were only two complaints on him in this game.

1. On the incompletion to Henderson, he did turn his head.
Now people complain that he turned his head late.

2. On the TD pass to Moore, he played the exact same technique the other Texans defenders were playing. Why don't people go gripe about all those players. And actually, they should go yell at Vance Joseph and Wade Phillips for teaching the guys that technique.

i imagine the technique also says to locate the ball, and not just stare at the WRs numbers while hand fighting. Wade has even said he needs to locate the ball better. So that has nothing to do with technique !

TexansSeminole
08-26-2012, 11:37 AM
You do understand that different coaches have different ideas on how things should be done right? You can't watch a couple coaching videos or go to a clinic and deduce how any given team wants to do things.

You are making excuses for Kareem instead of just plainly saying he didn't do a good job there feeling when the ball was coming and locating it.

The part about him expecting one thing and the qb and wr doing something else is hogwash. That's a part if football. This isn't practice. That's not Vance Joseph simulating a qb, and that's not Brice McCain simulating a wr. A football game is not a controlled environment.
Sometimes stuff is going to happen. All the routes and throws aren't going to be exactly where you expect them to be. Part of being a good ball player is reacting in the heat of the moment. If all the balls were thrown where he expected them to be then that would make his job super easy wouldn't it?

Kareem has seemed to have gotten even better on routes in front of him, but he still looks to be lacking when he has to turn his hips, run and defend passes down the field. There is no two ways around that. He needs to continue to improve there.

That's not ragging on him or anything. He's showed tremendous growth, but this is an area if his game that he needs to keep working on. Period.

I think we are in more agreement than you think. Kareem surely needs to improve in locating the ball on deep passes. As you said though, he has shown the ability to learn and grow. I think he has gotten better at it in his short time here. I think where we may disagree is in our confidence that he will be able to get better at it.

Brees is one of the best at that throw that he made to Lance Moore. It was a good test for him and he will learn from it. It is good that it happened to him in preseason so he can continue to work on it and use it as motivation.

The Pencil Neck
08-26-2012, 11:41 AM
:foottap: is he the only one u disagree with ? You get my point.

I think you meant Revis. Not Reeves.

SteveSlaton20
08-26-2012, 11:48 AM
Yeah, he looked pretty bad, but he's had two good games and one bad one. And Drew Brees can make any look bad. I'm not that worry because we aren't going against Drew Brees this season, and we couldn't generate any pass rush due to all the three steps drop backs. He definitely needs to get better at defending that tho, especially with Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, and Tom Brady on the schedule this season.

76Texan
08-26-2012, 11:53 AM
i imagine the technique also says to locate the ball, and not just stare at the WRs numbers while hand fighting. Wade has even said he needs to locate the ball better. So that has nothing to do with technique !

In all honesty, EU, I would love for you to study the game of football more closely.

I'm learning all the time.

It's hard for me to try to seperate things for you because you just lump all of them together so that you can gripe whenever you please.

Let's revisit the two-man route I talked about last off-season.
You and quite a few folks insisted that it was all Jackson's fault.

Go back and look at the INT he made against the Falcons.
That was the classic two-man route.
The on-side receiver was R White who was covered by JJo.
He ran the deep post route.
(In 2010, this CB would be KJ).

http://www.houstontexans.com/tv-media/videos/Jackson-picks-off-Ryan/9d46e7a4-3605-4271-9b60-9c5474118339

The off-side receiver was Julio Jones who KJ covered.
He ran the crossing route.

Now where did the ball was thrown to?
R. White
And who made the play on the ball?
KJ

Without KJ, JJo would have been burned toast.

It was one of the plays I tried to explain to you in depth, but you never believed me.

Now that it has been proven that I was correct, I still don't see the nay-sayers gave me credit for it.

So, keep on "hating", EU, my fellow Texans fan! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

TexansSeminole
08-26-2012, 11:57 AM
In all honesty, EU, I would love for you to study the game of football more closely.

I'm learning all the time.

It's hard for me to try to seperate things for you because you just lump all of them together so that you can gripe whenever you please.

I couldn't agree with this more. EU seems to just want to "be right" about Kareem and continues to bash him because it fits his original stance. He loves to gripe about KJ and continues to make comments that lack common sense.

I don't agree with everything that you say though 76. For example, Kareem isn't counting the yards in which he is running down the sideline and calculating when the Saints "usually" make that throw. It's not quite that technical, or not in my opinion. More likely, Kareem was just late in turning his head to locate the ball. He shows improvement on that play from his first or even early second year though. Back then he would have just pushed into the receiver to get a PI call. He's improving, it is just taking longer than the impatient fan would like it to.

76Texan
08-26-2012, 12:29 PM
I couldn't agree with this more. EU seems to just want to "be right" about Kareem and continues to bash him because it fits his original stance. He loves to gripe about KJ and continues to make comments that lack common sense.

I don't agree with everything that you say though 76. For example, Kareem isn't counting the yards in which he is running down the sideline and calculating when the Saints "usually" make that throw. It's not quite that technical, or not in my opinion. More likely, Kareem was just late in turning his head to locate the ball. He shows improvement on that play from his first or even early second year though. Back then he would have just pushed into the receiver to get a PI call. He's improving, it is just taking longer than the impatient fan would like it to.

But I do believe that (in the incompletion to Henderson) KJ turned his head around at the right time, TS.

From a Redskins playbook, I learned a coaching point that the DB should not turn his head until the receiver makes the break.

Here, Jackson needed to make sure that he pinned the receiver to the side line first (to better defend the back shoulder fade).
The top of the fade was about to be reached at this time.
It was only then that he was in truly good position to turn his head around, which he did.

HJam72
08-26-2012, 12:38 PM
Why don't they just do like #53 and tackle the receiver? :whip:

b0ng
08-26-2012, 01:51 PM
He will. KJ looks like he was mentored by Jaques Reeves. And yes Bong I know Calvin Johnson is a physical freak.

If you know this beforehand why would it make you throw things? Are you easily upset?

bo orlando
08-26-2012, 04:04 PM
I've went back and watched the whole game and kareem really didn't have a bad night at all.

I think this is going to be the Kareem-related mantra we're going to be hearing most of this year.

wolf123
08-26-2012, 04:42 PM
I think this is going to be the Kareem-related mantra we're going to be hearing most of this year.

That we jump to conclusions because he gives up a play and fans revert back to 2010 form?:spin:

thunderkyss
08-26-2012, 05:07 PM
2. On the TD pass to Moore, he played the exact same technique the other Texans defenders were playing. Why don't people go gripe about all those players. And actually, they should go yell at Vance Joseph and Wade Phillips for teaching the guys that technique.

Go back & watch that play from the snap. See where Kj is lined up, where the safeties are lined up. Watch what happens when the receiver gets closer to, then runs around Jackson.

That wasn't a taught, trailing technique. That was a guy who bit on something he shouldn't have, then tried to recover, & he was in good position, considering the bite on the play-fake.

If I were trying to defend Kj on that play, that would be my story, can't blame a guy for "attacking" a play in an aggressive defense. That was a great catch by Moore (who doesn't show up unless he's playing Kareem Jackson) & I don't have a lot to complain about Kj on that play.

The one that gets me the most, is when Jimmy Graham was thrown to in the end-zone.. I don't think Graham caught the ball, Kareem wasn't even covering him. Kj was covering a guy on the shallow end of the endzone just to the left of Graham.

Brees shouldn't have thrown the ball, because Graham had someone right behind him & Kj right in front of him. Jackson saw the ball release from Brees' hands, but instead of playing the ball, he turns & plays the man.

That should have been an INT, Kj should have attacked the ball, made a play. But he didn't.

bo orlando
08-26-2012, 06:53 PM
That we jump to conclusions because he gives up a play and fans revert back to 2010 form?:spin:

if you have to continually go back and micro-analyze game tape just to determine that a player's not as bad as you think, then that player might be a redneck, er, not that good

wolf123
08-26-2012, 08:11 PM
if you have to continually go back and micro-analyze game tape just to determine that a player's not as bad as you think, then that player might be a redneck, er, not that good

Here comes the fan I'm talking about...:spin:

Texn4life
08-26-2012, 08:13 PM
Who didn't get picked on last night? It looked like to me Drew Brees was an equal opportunity abuser.

EllisUnit
08-26-2012, 08:47 PM
Who didn't get picked on last night? It looked like to me Drew Brees was an equal opportunity abuser.

We should be fine, just reminded me of last season. Atleast we had a 14-0 lead until all our guys decided to give the ball away in a gift basket to the saints.

Rey
08-26-2012, 09:21 PM
Go back & watch that play from the snap. See where Kj is lined up, where the safeties are lined up. Watch what happens when the receiver gets closer to, then runs around Jackson.

That wasn't a taught, trailing technique. That was a guy who bit on something he shouldn't have, then tried to recover, & he was in good position, considering the bite on the play-fake.

If I were trying to defend Kj on that play, that would be my story, can't blame a guy for "attacking" a play in an aggressive defense. That was a great catch by Moore (who doesn't show up unless he's playing Kareem Jackson) & I don't have a lot to complain about Kj on that play.

The one that gets me the most, is when Jimmy Graham was thrown to in the end-zone.. I don't think Graham caught the ball, Kareem wasn't even covering him. Kj was covering a guy on the shallow end of the endzone just to the left of Graham.

Brees shouldn't have thrown the ball, because Graham had someone right behind him & Kj right in front of him. Jackson saw the ball release from Brees' hands, but instead of playing the ball, he turns & plays the man.

That should have been an INT, Kj should have attacked the ball, made a play. But he didn't.

Are you talking about the play where manning was covering Grahm?

I don't know if I would place any blame on kj there because I don't know what was called or how the coaches asked them to play that, but my initial reaction was that it looked like manning was expecting Kareem to jump the route but he didn't.

Looked like he was in good position to, but for some reason he didnt do it.

But I'm not going to sit here and criticize him for that in particular simply because it was kind of sketchy. I don't know what was supposed to happen there and I don't know what Kareem saw.

EllisUnit
08-26-2012, 10:29 PM
KJ has done better reseriving further judgment for reg season

still this........

steelbtexan
08-26-2012, 10:46 PM
Kj........ Lol

76Texan
08-26-2012, 11:32 PM
Go back & watch that play from the snap. See where Kj is lined up, where the safeties are lined up. Watch what happens when the receiver gets closer to, then runs around Jackson.

That wasn't a taught, trailing technique. That was a guy who bit on something he shouldn't have, then tried to recover, & he was in good position, considering the bite on the play-fake.

If I were trying to defend Kj on that play, that would be my story, can't blame a guy for "attacking" a play in an aggressive defense. That was a great catch by Moore (who doesn't show up unless he's playing Kareem Jackson) & I don't have a lot to complain about Kj on that play.



I'm not sure I follow you Fid.
If you care to elaborate a little more?

What did KJ bite on?
He was on the receiver like glue from start to finish.

dream_team
08-26-2012, 11:41 PM
The one that gets me the most, is when Jimmy Graham was thrown to in the end-zone.. I don't think Graham caught the ball, Kareem wasn't even covering him. Kj was covering a guy on the shallow end of the endzone just to the left of Graham.

Brees shouldn't have thrown the ball, because Graham had someone right behind him & Kj right in front of him. Jackson saw the ball release from Brees' hands, but instead of playing the ball, he turns & plays the man.

That should have been an INT, Kj should have attacked the ball, made a play. But he didn't.

I just re-watched that play... I don't quite see it the same way you described. He was on his man like he should be. Once Brees released the ball, KJ immediately left his guy and tried to make a play on the ball, but he arrived too late.

76Texan
08-26-2012, 11:59 PM
The one that gets me the most, is when Jimmy Graham was thrown to in the end-zone.. I don't think Graham caught the ball, Kareem wasn't even covering him. Kj was covering a guy on the shallow end of the endzone just to the left of Graham.

Brees shouldn't have thrown the ball, because Graham had someone right behind him & Kj right in front of him. Jackson saw the ball release from Brees' hands, but instead of playing the ball, he turns & plays the man.

That should have been an INT, Kj should have attacked the ball, made a play. But he didn't.

Are you talking about the play where manning was covering Grahm?

I don't know if I would place any blame on kj there because I don't know what was called or how the coaches asked them to play that, but my initial reaction was that it looked like manning was expecting Kareem to jump the route but he didn't.

Looked like he was in good position to, but for some reason he didnt do it.

But I'm not going to sit here and criticize him for that in particular simply because it was kind of sketchy. I don't know what was supposed to happen there and I don't know what Kareem saw.

If this was the TD that Graham caught then KJ had nothing to do with it.

This was definitely cover 2.

The Saint were in single back shotgun with the RB on the right side of the formation.

WR Henderson wide left (KJ on him)
TE Graham in slot left (Quin on him)
WR Colston in slot right (McCain on him)
WR Moore wide right (JJo on him)

Manning was the FS (on KJ and Quin side)
Demps was the SS (on the other side, where the RB lined up)

Texans were in a 4-man front, Dime package.

Dobbins was the lone LB; he would jump on the RB right of the bat.
This suggests Man coverage in cover 2 (two safeties).

Or it might be a combo, with Dobbins the only one in man coverage on the RB, and the rest settled back into a 42 zone.
(This was suggested by the fact that Quin didn't really follow the TE; he seemed to be settling in his zone - if it was man, than Quin blew the coverage).

If it was man, KJ did right staying with his man (Henderson).
If it was zone, KJ also did right staying in the flat defending Henderson.

If it was zone, Manning was late jumping on the TE who encroached his deep zone.
He had two guys who might threaten his deep zone.
(KJ already took care of Henderson by staying ahead of him the whole time).
The only threat to his zone was the TE Graham.

From what I observe:
1. If it was man, Quin blew it.
2. If it was zone, Manning blew it.

76Texan
08-27-2012, 12:17 AM
if you have to continually go back and micro-analyze game tape just to determine that a player's not as bad as you think, then that player might be a redneck, er, not that good

I analyze game tape to see the true worth of a player (the way I determine that Myers was the most consistent O-lineman for the Texans the last few years).

bo orlando
08-27-2012, 12:58 AM
Here comes the fan I'm talking about...:spin:


Other teams clearly target KJ in their gameplans, the guys he's covering consistently make big catches, and he rarely comes up with big plays like drive-killing PD's, ints, or tackles.

I have no doubt that he doesn't look as bad on tape as his rep would suggest. Unfortunately, his rep is that he's maybe the worst starting corner in the league so there's a lot of margin there. Sure, there's always sneaky good players that you don't always notice while watching the game live (Antonio Smith for example), but is that really the case here or are we just talking about a player who's "not that bad?"

76Texan
08-27-2012, 01:02 AM
Other teams clearly target KJ in their gameplans, the guys he's covering consistently make big catches, and he rarely comes up with big plays like drive-killing PD's, ints, or tackles.

I have no doubt that he doesn't look as bad on tape as his rep would suggest. Unfortunately, his rep is that he's maybe the worst starting corner in the league so there's a lot of margin there. Sure, there's always sneaky good players that you don't always notice while watching the game live (Antonio Smith for example), but is that really the case here or are we just talking about a player who's "not that bad?"

Can you tell me how many big catches he gave up in each of the game he played last year, including the play-offs?

Corrosion
08-27-2012, 01:05 AM
Can you tell me how many big catches he gave up in each of the game he played last year, including the play-offs?

Only game I recall KJ having a bad day was .... the Aints. But Brees does that to a lotta guy's. He's just a special player.

dream_team
08-27-2012, 01:13 AM
Other teams clearly target KJ in their gameplans, the guys he's covering consistently make big catches, and he rarely comes up with big plays like drive-killing PD's, ints, or tackles.

I have no doubt that he doesn't look as bad on tape as his rep would suggest. Unfortunately, his rep is that he's maybe the worst starting corner in the league so there's a lot of margin there. Sure, there's always sneaky good players that you don't always notice while watching the game live (Antonio Smith for example), but is that really the case here or are we just talking about a player who's "not that bad?"

What makes you think his rep is the worst starting corner in the league? I have never ever heard anyone say that (except from a few KJ haters on this board). You must not watch much football... there's ALOT of starting corners in the league that are worse.

wolf123
08-27-2012, 01:17 AM
Other teams clearly target KJ in their gameplans, the guys he's covering consistently make big catches, and he rarely comes up with big plays like drive-killing PD's, ints, or tackles.

I have no doubt that he doesn't look as bad on tape as his rep would suggest. Unfortunately, his rep is that he's maybe the worst starting corner in the league so there's a lot of margin there. Sure, there's always sneaky good players that you don't always notice while watching the game live (Antonio Smith for example), but is that really the case here or are we just talking about a player who's "not that bad?"

Oh course there going to target him, J-Joseph is a top 3 CB. Wade seems to think that he's pretty good, so I don't know how he can be the worst CB in the league...

thunderkyss
08-27-2012, 05:56 AM
What makes you think his rep is the worst starting corner in the league? I have never ever heard anyone say that (except from a few KJ haters on this board). You must not watch much football... there's ALOT of starting corners in the league that are worse.

No, I see much worse corners every week.

pfft.... Drayton Florence.. pssh....

Texn4life
08-27-2012, 06:03 AM
No, I see much worse corners every week.

pfft.... Drayton Florence.. pssh....

Hell, is our memory that short? We've had much worse corners starting for us. Faggins? Bennett? Kareem last year was like Revis compared to those 2.

Rey
08-27-2012, 06:50 AM
Only game I recall KJ having a bad day was .... the Aints. But Brees does that to a lotta guy's. He's just a special player.

Kj was much better last year, but he wasn't great against the ravens either time but both he and Joseph were better the second time when wade had Kareem covering the more physical Boldin and Joseph covering the more speedy wr's.

Also, when we played the falcons Kareem was pulled until Jason Allen got hurt on that last drive. I think at that point every pass or just about every pass went to Julio jones whom Kareem was covering, including the much talked about last pass into the endzone. The did Kareem cause the drop or not pass.

Also, Kareem wasn't a full time player last year. Not as many chances to do well or to mess up.

So far, Kareem has been an improved player. He looks different on the field. More confident.

But this year it looks like he'll be s full time starter and I think we'll be able to get an even more clear idea of what Kareem's ceiling might be.

Rey
08-27-2012, 06:55 AM
Other teams clearly target KJ in their gameplans, the guys he's covering consistently make big catches, and he rarely comes up with big plays like drive-killing PD's, ints, or tackles.

I have no doubt that he doesn't look as bad on tape as his rep would suggest. Unfortunately, his rep is that he's maybe the worst starting corner in the league so there's a lot of margin there. Sure, there's always sneaky good players that you don't always notice while watching the game live (Antonio Smith for example), but is that really the case here or are we just talking about a player who's "not that bad?"

I think other teams going after kj has more to do with him and manning being on the same side a bunch and Joseph and Quinn being on the other side.

I don't think he's the worst starting corner in the league though.

I think we need to give him more time. Last year was basically his rookie year IMO. This is year two.

Let's wait and see what he does this year.

bo orlando
08-27-2012, 09:55 AM
What makes you think his rep is the worst starting corner in the league? I have never ever heard anyone say that (except from a few KJ haters on this board). You must not watch much football... there's ALOT of starting corners in the league that are worse.

show me a texans preview for this year that DOESN'T mention KJ as a liability. i don't personally think he's the worst, but my point is that he's shown himself to be a mediocre player and i don't understand the apologists. people mention how wade likes him, okay so why did he specifically scheme last year to protect KJ, either by platooning him with Allen or by rolling coverage to his side of the field? coaches don't do that with good players.

maybe he takes a leap forward this year. that would be awesome, but color me cautious.

steelbtexan
08-27-2012, 09:06 PM
Kj was much better last year, but he wasn't great against the ravens either time but both he and Joseph were better the second time when wade had Kareem covering the more physical Boldin and Joseph covering the more speedy wr's.

Also, when we played the falcons Kareem was pulled until Jason Allen got hurt on that last drive. I think at that point every pass or just about every pass went to Julio jones whom Kareem was covering, including the much talked about last pass into the endzone. The did Kareem cause the drop or not pass.

Also, Kareem wasn't a full time player last year. Not as many chances to do well or to mess up.

So far, Kareem has been an improved player. He looks different on the field. More confident.

But this year it looks like he'll be s full time starter and I think we'll be able to get an even more clear idea of what Kareem's ceiling might be.

^^^^
This

The clear thought of KJ's ceiling should be down right scary for Texans fans. Considering they play Brady/Rodgers/Stafford/Cutler/Flacco etc....

There aint no Campbell/Moore/McCoy/Tebows on the schedule this yr.

76Texan
08-27-2012, 11:51 PM
show me a texans preview for this year that DOESN'T mention KJ as a liability. i don't personally think he's the worst, but my point is that he's shown himself to be a mediocre player and i don't understand the apologists. people mention how wade likes him, okay so why did he specifically scheme last year to protect KJ, either by platooning him with Allen or by rolling coverage to his side of the field? coaches don't do that with good players.

maybe he takes a leap forward this year. that would be awesome, but color me cautious.

Didn't you watch the Saints game?

Phil Simms mentioned that KJ is a much improved players.

...
About scheming, you get it all backward.
KJ was left on an island more than Allen.
When both KJ was on the field, he was treated as an equal to JJo by the scheme.

In fact, JJo might have had a hair more help (as he was covering the number 1 receiver).

76Texan
08-27-2012, 11:53 PM
^^^^
This

The clear thought of KJ's ceiling should be down right scary for Texans fans. Considering they play Brady/Rodgers/Stafford/Cutler/Flacco etc....

There aint no Campbell/Moore/McCoy/Tebows on the schedule this yr.

Some of these guys will get their numbers.
I ain't worry about it.

thunderkyss
09-10-2012, 06:50 PM
If anyone could please look at 14:08 in the 2nd qtr & tell me what you think.

We've got Anthony Armstrong (cut from Washingto) covered by Jjo... Looks like man coverage with safety help over the top. Tannehill throws the ball a little high, with maybe a little extra effort, Armstrong could have caught the ball.

A little more awareness, Manning could have intercepted the ball.

My big problem here, is that Armstrong is "wide open" It's 3rd & 13, why does Jjo bite on a short route & not play his man?

I know it's not KJack, but I didn't want to start a new thread just for this.

badboy
09-10-2012, 08:49 PM
Just me I guess but I think KJ did pretty well. I must qualify this saying I missed first quarter but he did not give up a TD when I was not watching. Depending on his next game play, I will probably removes corner from my 2013 mock and that would be a huge compliment for Jackson.

kwayshauntay
09-10-2012, 08:56 PM
I thought he did okay.

In the first half his good coverage forced an overthrow on a deep ball.

He also made a nice break on an out route, got both hands on the ball and nearly had a pick.

And of course he cleaned up JJ Watt's deflection for a pick.

But in the second half Heartline caught a deep ball past him because he once again failed to turn his head to locate the ball.

I think there was another instance where he did the same thing, failed to turn his head on a deep ball, but it fell incomplete.

Baby steps, I guess.

76Texan
09-10-2012, 09:15 PM
I thought he did okay.

In the first half his good coverage forced an overthrow on a deep ball.

He also made a nice break on an out route, got both hands on the ball and nearly had a pick.

And of course he cleaned up JJ Watt's deflection for a pick.

But in the second half Heartline caught a deep ball past him because he once again failed to turn his head to locate the ball.

I think there was another instance where he did the same thing, failed to turn his head on a deep ball, but it fell incomplete.

Baby steps, I guess.
I had mentioned a situation like this already in a different thread.
(Moore's TD catch in the Saint PS game).

When the DB is in the trail position, he cannot afford to turn his head.
He will only lose separation from the receiver.
Look at some of AJ's catches.

I would have liked for KJ put on a jam on this play to get the receiver closer to the side line.

badboy
09-10-2012, 09:19 PM
I had mentioned a situation like this already in a different thread.
(Moore's TD catch in the Saint PS game).

When the DB is in the trail position, he cannot afford to turn his head.
He will only lose separation from the receiver.
Look at some of AJ's catches.

I would have liked for KJ put on a jam on this play to get the receiver closer to the side line.Jamming has not been his strong suit but he did seem to play more confidently so maybe he is getting better and can become a bump & run CB

kwayshauntay
09-10-2012, 09:20 PM
I had mentioned a situation like this already in a different thread.
(Moore's TD catch in the Saint PS game).

When the DB is in the trail position, he cannot afford to turn his head.
He will only lose separation from the receiver.
Look at some of AJ's catches.

I would have liked for KJ put on a jam on this play to get the receiver closer to the side line.

Not true. I watched Chris Culliver do it vs the Packers a couple of times. I notice these things now because every time I see a CB do it, I think, wow, why can't our 1st round pick Kareeem do that?

76Texan
09-10-2012, 09:24 PM
Not true. I watched Chris Culliver do it vs the Packers a couple of times. I notice these things now because every time I see a CB do it, I think, wow, why can't our 1st round pick Kareeem do that?

I'd be sure to check that game out.

On the other thread, I noted 4 different plays in the same game in which neither Manning, Quin, nor Bradie James turned their head around while in the same position.

I had the time of the plays as well as the down and distance for everybody to check.

When you trail only slightly and you have the receiver pinned to the side line, yeah, then it's a good idea to turn you head; otherwise, you're inviting trouble.

TEXANRED
09-10-2012, 09:26 PM
KJ is a solid CB in the NFL. I would compare him to Marcus Colman.

badboy
09-10-2012, 09:29 PM
Not true. I watched Chris Culliver do it vs the Packers a couple of times. I notice these things now because every time I see a CB do it, I think, wow, why can't our 1st round pick Kareeem do that?
Going to disagree with you on a trailer turning his head. Culliver was my boy in pre-draft mocks but in most situations, I want my DB catching up not looking for ball. Doesn't matter where ball is if he is a couple steps behind.

Texecutioner
09-10-2012, 09:32 PM
The footage that I noticed KJ on, I was pleasantly surprised. I thought that he was making pretty good breaks to the ball and was showing pretty strong recovery skills that have improved. Basing this off of one game of course, so don't take this as 100% correct. For all we know KJ will get burned by some rookie next week. But right now he played a pretty strong game in week one.

Texan_Bill
09-10-2012, 09:34 PM
While KJ has improved greatly, he is no better than Dunta!!! Not tha comparing him to Dunta is any great shakes!!! Hel'll get better, better than Dunta tho'!!!

badboy
09-10-2012, 09:44 PM
While KJ has improved greatly, he is no better than Dunta!!! Not tha comparing him to Dunta is any great shakes!!! Hel'll get better, better than Dunta tho'!!!Yeah but Dunta was CB1 KJ CB2.

76Texan
09-10-2012, 09:52 PM
The footage that I noticed KJ on, I was pleasantly surprised. I thought that he was making pretty good breaks to the ball and was showing pretty strong recovery skills that have improved. Basing this off of one game of course, so don't take this as 100% correct. For all we know KJ will get burned by some rookie next week. But right now he played a pretty strong game in week one.

While KJ has improved greatly, he is no better than Dunta!!! Not tha comparing him to Dunta is any great shakes!!! Hel'll get better, better than Dunta tho'!!!

KJ still needs to keep improving, I agree.

Premier
09-10-2012, 11:12 PM
anyone see on the kareem interception, he shoved hartline to the ground. hartline actually had the inside position to possibly make a catch on the batted ball.. i thought kj made a heads up play right there and that the INT didnt technically fall into his lap..

kwayshauntay
09-10-2012, 11:53 PM
I just saw Antoine Cason trailing (not sure if he was in trail technique, but he was trailing), then turn his head, look up to locate the ball, and break up the pass.

I've seen CB's do this ever since I can remember.

76Texan
09-11-2012, 09:03 AM
I just saw Antoine Cason trailing (not sure if he was in trail technique, but he was trailing), then turn his head, look up to locate the ball, and break up the pass.

I've seen CB's do this ever since I can remember.

When you see something, at least try to make a mental note of when the play happened; otherwise, we have no way of seeing what you were seeing.

76Texan
09-11-2012, 09:30 AM
Not true. I watched Chris Culliver do it vs the Packers a couple of times. I notice these things now because every time I see a CB do it, I think, wow, why can't our 1st round pick Kareeem do that?

OK, so here's the one play I saw.

9:02 in the second quarter.
Culliver was right next to the receiver Jones near the side line.
The ball was underthrown, forcing the receiver to slow down while looking at the ball.
This gave Culliver just enough time to catch up.
He grabbed the receiver's shoulder's pad and then turned around to locate the ball.

This is what I was talking about; when you're in good position
(ie. you know exactly where the receiver is going - Culliver with a hand on the shoulder pad of the receiver). He was in-phase with the receiver; that's a good time to turn your head.

A PI should have been called (the commentator saw it that way).
But that's besides the point.

Because the ball was underthrown (or for whatever reason), the DB was in a good position to defend the pass,
and therefore, can afford to turn his head to locate the ball.

76Texan
09-11-2012, 09:35 AM
A few plays later, at 7:40, Jones caught a 28-yd pass on Culliver.
On this play, Culliver was also in-phase (side by side) with the receiver; he never turned around to locate the ball.
Jones, however, extended his arm on the DB to get seperation and was called for offensive PI.

76Texan
09-11-2012, 09:53 AM
At 1:43 in the third, the DB was temporarily in-phase with the TE Davis but was not close enough to the side-line; he never turned his head to locate the ball.

At :54 in the fourth, Culliver played off-man and was ahead of the receiver Nelson along the side-line.
Here, as I said, the DB is in good position, and should turn his head to locate the ball.
He did just that.
As the ball was thrown inside, Culliver was able to deflect it.
If the ball was thrown as a back-shoulder fade, Nelson would probably have had a catch, but that's besides the point (I only mention this to show the double-edge sword of trying to locate the ball).

76Texan
09-11-2012, 10:05 AM
Wacth Romo's 40-yd TD pass to Ogletree in the third quarter against the Giants.
The replay should be there on NFL.com

The DB was in the shuffle and got beat by the receiver.
Instead of concentrating on recovering, he tried to look back at the ball and allowed even more separation.

Then watch the 34-yd TD pass to Austin in the fourth quarter.
Again, the DB got beat by the double-move.
Instead of making sure that he has the receiver in sight, he looked back and lost it all.
He could have defended that pass (or at least had a good shot at it).

76Texan
09-11-2012, 10:29 AM
On the almost-TD pass to Jean, the Dolphins DB was pretty much in phase with the receiver, but he never turned his head to locate the ball. He wasn't quite close enough to the side line.

Turning his head wouldn't have helped him anyway.
By concentrating on the receiver's eyes and then the hand/arm;
he was able to put a hand on Jean's right shoulder and arm (just a hair before the ball arrived).
Jean couldn't gathered both hands together sooner to secure the catch.

Turning his head here would only hurt the CB more; he wouldn't be able to pin-point the arrival location of the ball.

Also, if it was a back-shoulder fade, the CB would have been in no position to defend the play.

76Texan
09-11-2012, 10:33 AM
On the incompletion to Hartline down the middle to start the second half, I would have to wait until the coach's film comes out (I think on Wednesday sometimes) to see the play more closely.

At any rate, KJ was on the receiver like glue; even if the pass was on target, he would have been in good position to defend it.

b0ng
09-11-2012, 10:33 AM
God tomorrow can't get here fast enough with the All-22 footage.

CretorFrigg
09-11-2012, 10:36 AM
KJ wasn't terrible. He was good in coverage, stuck to his receiver. He just needs to learn to locate the ball. He has no sense of where the ball is whatsoever, and that's what's getting him burned.

76Texan
09-11-2012, 10:57 AM
On AJ's 29-yd catch down the right side line in the fourth,
the CB was beaten by a double move and cannot afford to look back to the ball.
He was able to push AJ out of bound at the 3-yd line.
He would have given up a TD by turning his head to look at the ball.

76Texan
09-11-2012, 11:07 AM
Right after the 2-min warning, J Jo was defending a pass along the (offensive) left side line. He was ahead of the receiver but never turned his head to locate the ball.

The ball was a little short and outside such that the receiver could not get to it.

It was thrown around 15-16 yards from the LOS.
This is before the point where a receiver declares his intention (the top of his stem) and that was why JJo had not turned his head yet.

76Texan
09-11-2012, 11:13 AM
Another play where KJ defended well was the flag route ran by Hartline with 9:08 to go.

The pass overthrown and out of bound, otherwise, Jackson would have been in perfect position for a break up.
And if it was a poorly-thrown pass, KJ would have had an excellent chance at an INT.

thunderkyss
09-11-2012, 11:36 AM
KJ wasn't terrible. He was good in coverage, stuck to his receiver. He just needs to learn to locate the ball. He has no sense of where the ball is whatsoever, and that's what's getting him burned.

I'm going to have to agree with 76 on this one. We can't expect the corner to turn his head every time. Some times it's just not practical. Since he first mentioned it, I've been watching & too many times the CB doesn't turn his head & there appears to be commonalities between those instances. Like the TD fade to Andre. Unless that CB has major ups, turning his head would have made it much worse. Instead, he kept his eyes on AJ & made it a difficult catch. (perfect throw by the way).

http://www.texansbullpen.com/12photogallery/Season/2012-09-09-Dolphins-Texans/2ndQuarter/DSC_1032.JPG

I've never played DB (too slow) so I've never been coached. But on the Hartline catch we're talking about, Kj was more or less behind the receiver who was being led pretty good. Had he turned to find the ball, I don't think he would have had a shot at it or the tackle.

In that case, I can see a coach telling his player to play the man, watch his eyes, get his hands in the receivers view. Don't touch the receiver, but get his hands between the receivers elbows or something to make it difficult for him to pull the ball in.

kwayshauntay
09-11-2012, 12:48 PM
When you see something, at least try to make a mental note of when the play happened; otherwise, we have no way of seeing what you were seeing.

Antoine Cason (2008 1st round pick, 27th overall)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-M4xTUOOCDkM/UE9xGSRLpyI/AAAAAAAAALg/gf0kPysMPM8/s1600/cason1.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oVyOj8lnO-Y/UE9xTkEUy6I/AAAAAAAAALo/JOQcRwj0U2s/s1600/cason2.gif

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kpn-hHVTuxY/UE9xeKR8F5I/AAAAAAAAALw/rSLAWy8H8mk/s1600/cason3.gif

kwayshauntay
09-11-2012, 12:49 PM
OK, so here's the one play I saw.

9:02 in the second quarter.
Culliver was right next to the receiver Jones near the side line.
The ball was underthrown, forcing the receiver to slow down while looking at the ball.
This gave Culliver just enough time to catch up.
He grabbed the receiver's shoulder's pad and then turned around to locate the ball.

This is what I was talking about; when you're in good position
(ie. you know exactly where the receiver is going - Culliver with a hand on the shoulder pad of the receiver). He was in-phase with the receiver; that's a good time to turn your head.

A PI should have been called (the commentator saw it that way).
But that's besides the point.

Because the ball was underthrown (or for whatever reason), the DB was in a good position to defend the pass,
and therefore, can afford to turn his head to locate the ball.

I remembered incorrectly. It was Tarell Brown (2007 5th round pick) that had the head-turn, locate-the-ball play that stuck out in my mind (2:05 1st Quarter).

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LcmdhRlhwxE/UE9ys-r7lMI/AAAAAAAAAMw/VOO2_MN14AA/s1600/tarell_brown2.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ryRmgjn8A94/UE9y4Btph7I/AAAAAAAAAM4/7eyvgNpkn3Q/s1600/tarell_brown3.gif


Culliver (2011 3rd round pick) did have that play you mentioned where he got away with a jersey grab. The point is, he still turned his head to locate the ball. He demonstrated that he has that basic cornerback instinct, at least on this play.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-L1O2gzi4Ly8/UE9xryDUOWI/AAAAAAAAAL4/zLC97vmO6Sk/s1600/culliver1.gif



And also on this play

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ih8wU1MxSn8/UE9x0QIHHsI/AAAAAAAAAMA/l_v5Rqaviow/s1600/culliver2at.gif

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eLU-GCfSPt0/UE9x4cql3aI/AAAAAAAAAMI/QsaKYG_xrB8/s1600/culliver2b.gif

On similar plays, where the ball was underthrown, how many times the last two years have we seen Kareem never turn his head to locate the ball, and instead just flail and run into the guy?

kwayshauntay
09-11-2012, 12:49 PM
A few plays later, at 7:40, Jones caught a 28-yd pass on Culliver.
On this play, Culliver was also in-phase (side by side) with the receiver; he never turned around to locate the ball.
Jones, however, extended his arm on the DB to get seperation and was called for offensive PI.

Yes and on that play you'll notice Culliver was roundly chastised by Aikman for failing to turn around to find the ball, as well he should be.

kwayshauntay
09-11-2012, 12:50 PM
I'm going to have to agree with 76 on this one. We can't expect the corner to turn his head every time. Some times it's just not practical. Since he first mentioned it, I've been watching & too many times the CB doesn't turn his head & there appears to be commonalities between those instances. Like the TD fade to Andre. Unless that CB has major ups, turning his head would have made it much worse. Instead, he kept his eyes on AJ & made it a difficult catch. (perfect throw by the way).

http://www.texansbullpen.com/12photogallery/Season/2012-09-09-Dolphins-Texans/2ndQuarter/DSC_1032.JPG

I've never played DB (too slow) so I've never been coached. But on the Hartline catch we're talking about, Kj was more or less behind the receiver who was being led pretty good. Had he turned to find the ball, I don't think he would have had a shot at it or the tackle.

In that case, I can see a coach telling his player to play the man, watch his eyes, get his hands in the receivers view. Don't touch the receiver, but get his hands between the receivers elbows or something to make it difficult for him to pull the ball in.

Single frames don't tell you the whole story. Re-watch that play again, and you'll see Sean Smith at least attempts to turn his head to locate the ball. He first turns his head right, but is unable to locate the ball. He then turns his head left, and is unable to locate the ball, before finally Andre catches it. Sometimes, you get beat. He still displayed the basic instinct that all good cornerbacks have, which is to turn your head and try to locate the ball.

kwayshauntay
09-11-2012, 12:52 PM
Like I said, overall the Miami game was a decent one for Kareem. He did more good than bad.


Among the good was this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TRnbuy1cwvw/UE9yVjMQ4fI/AAAAAAAAAMg/P2wjCZ6WeJ4/s1600/kareem_good.gif

Well I'll be, he turned to locate the ball, how 'bout that. You can't overstate the importance of turning to locate the ball. Because he did so in this instance, he was not called for PI even though he bumped into Hartline. When you turn to locate the ball, you are given more leeway if contact occurs, because you have just as much right to the ball as the receiver, provided that you turn your head to locate the ball.


Among the few bad things he did this game was this, which should be old hat to all Texans fans:

(Two views of the same play)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ub2Uw7gNViI/UE9x_QyHvHI/AAAAAAAAAMQ/4fd2bNiCu1M/s1600/kareem_bad1.gif

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-135SzVNPT1c/UE9yM7A_HCI/AAAAAAAAAMY/Id364HsmQBo/s1600/kareem_bad2.gif


For the past two seasons Texans fans have been subjected to far too much of the latter (not to mention Faggins and Reeves having that same shortcoming) and not enough of the former.

We need more of the former, and less of the latter.

The Miami game was a good start, so on to the next game...

76Texan
09-11-2012, 01:05 PM
Antoine Cason (2008 1st round pick, 27th overall)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-M4xTUOOCDkM/UE9xGSRLpyI/AAAAAAAAALg/gf0kPysMPM8/s1600/cason1.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oVyOj8lnO-Y/UE9xTkEUy6I/AAAAAAAAALo/JOQcRwj0U2s/s1600/cason2.gif

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kpn-hHVTuxY/UE9xeKR8F5I/AAAAAAAAALw/rSLAWy8H8mk/s1600/cason3.gif

Cason was clearly ahead of the receiver at the start when he first saw the ball.
Even though he ended up a little bit in the trail position, he was really close enough.
He had a pretty good idea where the ball is going to go from the beginning.
This is one instance that the DB has to look for the ball.

Another reason here is that Cason was playing outside technique with safety help in the middle.
He didn't have to worry about the post route, and probably not the skinny post either (look at how far outside the numbers the safety got to.)

Reps for all the videos.
Great job!

Rey
09-11-2012, 01:06 PM
Joseph talked about this on the radio this morning and said the same thing I've said before. Locating the ball is something you can work on, but being able to make plays on the ball consistently is something you either can do or can't do.

And you can't compare what Shawn Smith is doing while covering Andre Johnson to what Kareem is doing covering freaking Hartline...

But 76 is right. You aren't supposed to look for the ball when the receiver has a step or two on you. Not unless you see him start to slow down for the ball or once you have made up enough ground to comfortably do so.

That is when your instincts come into play...

Where I agree with others is that Kareem hasn't been great at finding the ball when running down field. When he's facing the action he's pretty good, but once he has to flip his hips and run he is lacking....BUT he has gotten much better in that area which is what's most important...

76Texan
09-11-2012, 01:15 PM
Yes and on that play you'll notice Culliver was roundly chastised by Aikman for failing to turn around to find the ball, as well he should be.

This is an instance where the DB should turn his head, we all agreed on that.

76Texan
09-11-2012, 01:20 PM
Single frames don't tell you the whole story. Re-watch that play again, and you'll see Sean Smith at least attempts to turn his head to locate the ball. He first turns his head right, but is unable to locate the ball. He then turns his head left, and is unable to locate the ball, before finally Andre catches it. Sometimes, you get beat. He still displayed the basic instinct that all good cornerbacks have, which is to turn your head and try to locate the ball.

Like I said before, and Rey agreed, this is another instance where the DB should look for the ball.

He was all over AJ with his left hand, and he was somewhat ahead of the receiver.

However, he should not have turn his head twice.
He might have been able to play through the receiver after the first turn of the head (and unable to locate the ball).

76Texan
09-11-2012, 01:24 PM
I remembered incorrectly. It was Tarell Brown (2007 5th round pick) that had the head-turn, locate-the-ball play that stuck out in my mind (2:05 1st Quarter).

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LcmdhRlhwxE/UE9ys-r7lMI/AAAAAAAAAMw/VOO2_MN14AA/s1600/tarell_brown2.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ryRmgjn8A94/UE9y4Btph7I/AAAAAAAAAM4/7eyvgNpkn3Q/s1600/tarell_brown3.gif


Culliver (2011 3rd round pick) did have that play you mentioned where he got away with a jersey grab. The point is, he still turned his head to locate the ball. He demonstrated that he has that basic cornerback instinct, at least on this play.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-L1O2gzi4Ly8/UE9xryDUOWI/AAAAAAAAAL4/zLC97vmO6Sk/s1600/culliver1.gif



And also on this play

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ih8wU1MxSn8/UE9x0QIHHsI/AAAAAAAAAMA/l_v5Rqaviow/s1600/culliver2at.gif

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eLU-GCfSPt0/UE9x4cql3aI/AAAAAAAAAMI/QsaKYG_xrB8/s1600/culliver2b.gif

On similar plays, where the ball was underthrown, how many times the last two years have we seen Kareem never turn his head to locate the ball, and instead just flail and run into the guy?

Again, look at the position between the DB and the receiver.

In play one, the DB had a hand on the receiver's shoulder pad.
He was in phase with the receiver.

In play two, the DB was ahead of the receiver.

Both of those instances indicate that the DB can afford to turn his head.

kwayshauntay
09-11-2012, 01:28 PM
Again, look at the position between the DB and the receiver.

In play one, the DB had a hand on the receiver's shoulder pad.
He was in phase with the receiver.

In play two, the DB was ahead of the receiver.

Both of those instances indicate that the DB can afford to turn his head.

So why didn't KJ turn his head on that Hartline completion? Or countless other completions the past two years?

76Texan
09-11-2012, 01:35 PM
So why didn't KJ turn his head on that Hartline completion? Or countless other completions the past two years?

Read Rey's post.

badboy
09-11-2012, 01:39 PM
So why didn't KJ turn his head on that Hartline completion? Or countless other completions the past two years?First let me say it takes for E--V--E---R to arrow past the video snaps you guys post but my point is if the defender is within say arm's reach of WR and a jump could impact the flight of ball, he should look back. If not at that distance he should be making up ground not looking for ball as he will not be part of the play.

kwayshauntay
09-11-2012, 01:42 PM
Read Rey's post.

I assume you mean this part of Rey's post:

But 76 is right. You aren't supposed to look for the ball when the receiver has a step or two on you. Not unless you see him start to slow down for the ball or once you have made up enough ground to comfortably do so.

So Brian freaking Hartline (Rey's words, but I share the sentiment) got a step or two on him, and he was unable to make up enough ground on Brian freaking Hartline to comfortably be able to turn and locate the ball. Is that supposed to make me feel better about Kareem?

Joseph talked about this on the radio this morning and said the same thing I've said before. Locating the ball is something you can work on, but being able to make plays on the ball consistently is something you either can do or can't do.

So is JJo implying there is no hope for Kareem?

kwayshauntay
09-11-2012, 01:43 PM
First let me say it takes for E--V--E---R to arrow past the video snaps you guys post but my point is if the defender is within say arm's reach of WR and a jump could impact the flight of ball, he should look back. If not at that distance he should be making up ground not looking for ball as he will not be part of the play.

I agree with this post.

76Texan
09-11-2012, 01:52 PM
I assume you mean this part of Rey's post:



So Brian freaking Hartline (Rey's words, but I share the sentiment) got a step or two on him, and he was unable to make up enough ground on Brian freaking Hartline to comfortably be able to turn and locate the ball. Is that supposed to make me feel better about Kareem?



So is JJo implying there is no hope for Kareem?

I agree with this post.

Badboy was saying that a DB should not blindly turn his head back to look at the ball.

I am not discussing about anything else the last couple of days, except for when a DB should look back for the ball.

BTW, I'm going back to watch some games from last year, and I noticed that on a PI call against Clyde Gates (Dolphins), KJ did look back to locate the ball.
This is another classic 2-man route where Quin was late to get back in the deep middle (the crosser was already taken care of).
This is at the 5:01 mark in the 2nd quarter.

At 13:19, Hartline almost pulled in a toe-tap 25-yd catch on pretty much the same route and defense as the one in the game this year.
Dan Fouts called it "good coverage by KJ... Perfect throw and catch."
Almost an incompletion.

Rey
09-11-2012, 02:04 PM
I assume you mean this part of Rey's post:



So Brian freaking Hartline (Rey's words, but I share the sentiment) got a step or two on him, and he was unable to make up enough ground on Brian freaking Hartline to comfortably be able to turn and locate the ball. Is that supposed to make me feel better about Kareem?



So is JJo implying there is no hope for Kareem?

I think JJo was just being honest.

Is Kareem elite? No. He's not. Are there corners with better ball skills and natural instincts than Kareem? Absolutely.

But football isn't played in a vacuum. It helps when you are a well rounded player. While KAreem doesn't have the deep coverage skill of some guys, when teams run out on the edge or throw short routes in front of him, he is almost money. Kareem does a lot of good things, and honestly I love his physicality out on the edge and in coverage. He's more physical than Joseph, but he doesn't have the ball skills, speed or fluidity.

But Joseph sometimes gets out-bodied by receivers if you haven't noticed. What makes Joseph a top corner IMO is that he consistently is able to make plays on the ball and his elite athleticism.

Revis even gets beat at times and he is like the perfect mixture or what you'd want in a corner. Physical in coverage, good speed, quickness, fluidity and tremendous ball skills.

If Kareem had those ball skills and all that other stuff he'd be an top tier or elite corner.

My main argument with 76 over Kareem was about his rookie year and how I felt like he was trying to excuse Kareem's shortcomings. I never felt like he couldn't improve. And well, he has. He is a decent to good starting corner in the NFL.

Can we find a corner with better ball skills? Probably. Can we find an overall better player there? Maybe.
IF the opportunity arises to possibly upgrade the position, we should do it.
But Kareem is no longer the liability he used to be. I think we should appreciate that. He's going to have some bad moments...All corners do.

76Texan
09-11-2012, 02:24 PM
Against the Saints, there was a play at 9:35 in the fourth where Brees threw a 27-yd TD to the TE Graham in the left corner of the end zone.

Graham lined up as a wide out with Quin playing as the RCB.
He (Quin) was in the trail position and never turned his head around.

With 3 mins left, Brees threw an incompletion to the right to Meachem.
JJo got beat on that out route; he never turned his head around.
(No time).

On both 2-point conversions, JJo was beaten by the receiver and never had time to look for the ball.

silvrhand
09-11-2012, 02:26 PM
I assume you mean this part of Rey's post:

So Brian freaking Hartline (Rey's words, but I share the sentiment) got a step or two on him, and he was unable to make up enough ground on Brian freaking Hartline to comfortably be able to turn and locate the ball. Is that supposed to make me feel better about Kareem?


Hartline doesn't have a lot of straight speed, but the dude is quick off the cut, placing first in all wide receivers in the 60 yard shuffle drill. It simply looks like Kareem underestimated him a bit.

Hartline finished tops among all wide receivers with a 10.92 in the 60-yard shuttle. In the three cone drill, he finished second among his position with a time of 6.65, while taking home fourth place in the 20-yard shuttle (4.12). Robiskie was fifth and eighth respectively, while not having an official time in the 60-yard shuttle. For comparison purposes, Georgia’s Knowshon Moreno clocked in at 11.63.

76Texan
09-11-2012, 02:34 PM
Against the Ravens, with 2:31 left in the half, McCain was in trail position but turned his head to try to locate the ball.
He gave up more separation from Torrey Smith; luckily, Flacco's pass was long.

silvrhand
09-11-2012, 02:39 PM
Like I said, overall the Miami game was a decent one for Kareem. He did more good than bad.

We need more of the former, and less of the latter.

The Miami game was a good start, so on to the next game...

Couple point heres:
- Kareem bit a bit on the out and up, and then got
- The pass was perfectly thrown, and a great catch.
- Daniel Manning was lined up over the top it seems, KJ was lined up inside which leads me to believe he might have help over the top.
- LOL Quinn straight up mugged his guy (side note)

It was a pretty damn nice throw and catch the one thing KJ did was try to play to the receivers hands/eyes and swat the ball out.

The one thing you guys aren't talking about as well that I think is overlooked is KJ is a very good tackler for a corner as well. He's not afraid to make the hard tackle, and he had several of them early on in the game and a nice hit on the receiver later in the game.

I agree he's not perfect, but I don't think the sky is falling with him either.

76Texan
09-11-2012, 03:02 PM
Against the Panthers, JJo gave up a 26-yd TD to Steve Smith in the first quarter.
He didn't pin the receiver to the side line; instead he was looking at the ball, hoping that Newton would make a mistake. There's a poor decision to try to locate the ball way too early.

With 8:58 to go in the third, KJ was step for step with the receiver LaFell; he didn't look back because the slot receiver was running a wheel route and KJ has yet to arrive to a point where he can pin the receive to the side line (too early in the stem - but he was about to); Newton had to throw the ball out of bound. The commentator called it "good coverage".

ubecool454
09-11-2012, 03:11 PM
All I can say is that Kareem has a very tough job because Jonathan Joseph is not going to get many balls thrown his way. No CB in the league is not going to get beat sometimes. Maybe all you KJ haters would like to bring Demarcus Faggins back..lol. Since 2002 I can't think of but 2 CBs that were better than KJ and thats Joseph and Dunta...I won't put Aaron Glen in there because we got him when he was all washed up. If Wade likes KJ then I like him too.

infantrycak
09-11-2012, 03:32 PM
I won't put Aaron Glen in there because we got him when he was all washed up.

Excuse me but WHAT? Aaron Glenn was 10 times the CB Dunta has ever been. He was so washed up he went to the pro bowl in 2002. He almost single handed won the game against Pittsburgh.

Texn4life
09-11-2012, 03:38 PM
Excuse me but WHAT? Aaron Glenn was 10 times the CB Dunta has ever been. He was so washed up he went to the pro bowl in 2002. He almost single handed won the game against Pittsburgh.

Almost? I would say he did win that game for us. AG was very much still a good Corner when he played for us starting off. He faded maybe his last year with us, but outside of that I was more than pleased with the job he did for us.

ubecool454
09-11-2012, 05:06 PM
Excuse me but WHAT? Aaron Glenn was 10 times the CB Dunta has ever been. He was so washed up he went to the pro bowl in 2002. He almost single handed won the game against Pittsburgh.

Opinions are never right or wrong but 10 times..lol. I'm not comparing Dunta to Aaron Glen here. I'm just saying Kareem is far from the worst CB we have seen around here in our brief history.

Playmaker
09-11-2012, 05:46 PM
Opinions are never right or wrong but 10 times..lol. I'm not comparing Dunta to Aaron Glen here. I'm just saying Kareem is far from the worst CB we have seen around here in our brief history.

Phillip Buchanon comes to mind.

ChampionTexan
09-11-2012, 06:01 PM
Phillip Buchanon comes to mind.

Not if I can help it.

infantrycak
09-11-2012, 06:02 PM
Opinions are never right or wrong but 10 times..lol. I'm not comparing Dunta to Aaron Glen here. I'm just saying Kareem is far from the worst CB we have seen around here in our brief history.

I don't think KJ is as bad as people make out either. Call it 10 times or far better Glenn was not washed up when he got here and was in his time in Houston a far better CB than Dunta has ever sniffed at being.

He was also a very intelligent player - the kind it actually makes sense to talk about getting into coaching. He was brilliant at using his hands and subtle leans to shift WR's off their routes without getting calls by the refs (who he frequently talked to). You could also see him next to the kicking cage talking to Dunta and Faggins a bunch. During the games he was doing far more than the DB coach. Might be a reason Dunta's best season in the NFL was the one he spent with Glenn.

Oh and Glenn 3 time pro-bowler. Dunta - never will be pro-bowler.

badboy
09-11-2012, 08:47 PM
I don't think KJ is as bad as people make out either. Call it 10 times or far better Glenn was not washed up when he got here and was in his time in Houston a far better CB than Dunta has ever sniffed at being.

He was also a very intelligent player - the kind it actually makes sense to talk about getting into coaching. He was brilliant at using his hands and subtle leans to shift WR's off their routes without getting calls by the refs (who he frequently talked to). You could also see him next to the kicking cage talking to Dunta and Faggins a bunch. During the games he was doing far more than the DB coach. Might be a reason Dunta's best season in the NFL was the one he spent with Glenn.

Oh and Glenn 3 time pro-bowler. Dunta - never will be pro-bowler.
Bolded is what I'd like to see KJ develop into with coaching.

thunderkyss
09-12-2012, 08:41 AM
Well I'll be, he turned to locate the ball, how 'bout that. You can't overstate the importance of turning to locate the ball. Because he did so in this instance, he was not called for PI even though he bumped into Hartline. When you turn to locate the ball, you are given more leeway if contact occurs, because you have just as much right to the ball as the receiver, provided that you turn your head to locate the ball.


I like the gifs, rep for you.

You make it sound as if we are saying the DB should never turn to locate the ball.

That's not what we're saying.'76 & I understand the importance of turning to locating the ball. Just pointing out that it isn't always necessary or practical.

I also don't think that was a bad play by Kareem. Could have been better, but not bad. The goal is to stop the receiver from catching the ball. But those guys usually catch balls or they sit on the bench or go home. So just because the receiver caught the ball, doesn't make it a bad play. It was a "difficult" catch.... I'll take that. There was no YAC, I'll take that.

The worst part of that play was how the receiver got past him. Kj got beat there & the receiver ran the route he wanted to, outside where Kj didn't have help.

thunderkyss
09-12-2012, 08:49 AM
Cason was clearly ahead of the receiver at the start when he first saw the ball.
Even though he ended up a little bit in the trail position, he was really close enough.
He had a pretty good idea where the ball is going to go from the beginning.
This is one instance that the DB has to look for the ball.



I don't know '76, looks like a bad throw by Palmer, the receiver had to slow down, giving Cason time to catch up. Had that ball been ahead of that receiver, looking back & locating the ball would have been bad... like you said originally.

Cason recovered well, made a good play & looking for the ball allowed him to do so. But he was originally toast.

thunderkyss
09-12-2012, 08:59 AM
I think JJo was just being honest.

Is Kareem elite? No. He's not. Are there corners with better ball skills and natural instincts than Kareem? Absolutely.

But football isn't played in a vacuum. It helps when you are a well rounded player. While KAreem doesn't have the deep coverage skill of some guys, when teams run out on the edge or throw short routes in front of him, he is almost money. Kareem does a lot of good things, and honestly I love his physicality out on the edge and in coverage. He's more physical than Joseph, but he doesn't have the ball skills, speed or fluidity.

But Joseph sometimes gets out-bodied by receivers if you haven't noticed. What makes Joseph a top corner IMO is that he consistently is able to make plays on the ball and his elite athleticism.

Revis even gets beat at times and he is like the perfect mixture or what you'd want in a corner. Physical in coverage, good speed, quickness, fluidity and tremendous ball skills.

If Kareem had those ball skills and all that other stuff he'd be an top tier or elite corner.

My main argument with 76 over Kareem was about his rookie year and how I felt like he was trying to excuse Kareem's shortcomings. I never felt like he couldn't improve. And well, he has. He is a decent to good starting corner in the NFL.

Can we find a corner with better ball skills? Probably. Can we find an overall better player there? Maybe.
IF the opportunity arises to possibly upgrade the position, we should do it.
But Kareem is no longer the liability he used to be. I think we should appreciate that. He's going to have some bad moments...All corners do.

Best Kj post ever.

The only thing I will add is that if Kj is truly as smart as we were led to believe, he'll eventually figure out to be a top corner by maximizing the effects of what he can't do, & minimizing the effects of what he can't do. He may never lead the league in interceptions, but he can very well be the best at stopping the other guy from catching the ball.

thunderkyss
09-12-2012, 09:05 AM
I assume you mean this part of Rey's post:



So Brian freaking Hartline (Rey's words, but I share the sentiment) got a step or two on him, and he was unable to make up enough ground on Brian freaking Hartline to comfortably be able to turn and locate the ball. Is that supposed to make me feel better about Kareem?



Really not trying to defend Kj, especially not on this play. But if I were his DB Coach, the biggest thing I would "coach" Kj on is that the receiver never should have been allowed to get outside of him, so easily. There was just too much space for one man to cover. If Kj couldn't stop him from getting over there, he should at least have made him work for it, allowing our pass rush to get to the QB.

Hartline is running up & out, Kj is out of the play once he allowed Hartline to get outside & ahead of him.

76Texan
09-12-2012, 09:17 AM
I don't know '76, looks like a bad throw by Palmer, the receiver had to slow down, giving Cason time to catch up. Had that ball been ahead of that receiver, looking back & locating the ball would have been bad... like you said originally.

Cason recovered well, made a good play & looking for the ball allowed him to do so. But he was originally toast.

It wasn't a good throw, but the CB sometimes plays underneath to look for the INT with inside safety help. We use J Jo that way at times. Even Dunta was used that way at times.

silvrhand
09-12-2012, 01:30 PM
It wasn't a good throw, but the CB sometimes plays underneath to look for the INT with inside safety help. We use J Jo that way at times. Even Dunta was used that way at times.

76Texan, not in that raiders example, that's a rather bad example the receiver simply slowed down and was trying to head back to the ball giving the CB a huge advantage, if that ball is 5 more yards down the field that's 6 points for palmer. Both the CB/safety were beat on that.

The GB/SF example was much more in line with what you expect, but then again it's more than just getting your head back, it's knowing what to look for from the receiver to see he's getting the ball, to the sideline yelling "ball", the receivers eyes, all of that has to come into play to learn when to look back.

76Texan
09-13-2012, 04:49 PM
76Texan, not in that raiders example, that's a rather bad example the receiver simply slowed down and was trying to head back to the ball giving the CB a huge advantage, if that ball is 5 more yards down the field that's 6 points for palmer. Both the CB/safety were beat on that.



Antoine Cason (2008 1st round pick, 27th overall)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-M4xTUOOCDkM/UE9xGSRLpyI/AAAAAAAAALg/gf0kPysMPM8/s1600/cason1.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oVyOj8lnO-Y/UE9xTkEUy6I/AAAAAAAAALo/JOQcRwj0U2s/s1600/cason2.gif

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kpn-hHVTuxY/UE9xeKR8F5I/AAAAAAAAALw/rSLAWy8H8mk/s1600/cason3.gif

I understand where you come from, SH.

Let's not get to the part where both the CB and safety got beat yet.

We had Pollard with an INT his first year with the Texans on a play like this.
We rolled Pollard out without the QB suspecting it.
The QB thought the receiver had the CB beat, and Pollard ended up with an INT.

Every time the CB play this kind of leverage, we should expect some kind of safety help.

Sometimes we bait the offense into an INT, sometimes we lose.

If the D doesn't bait, the CB should play the receiver closer - and not the ball, like Cason did here.
At any rate, the CB's real concern is a sideline route by the receiver.
What I said was that the safety at least will take care of the skinny post and the post route.

This gives the CB more leeway to play more aggressively.

He chose to play the ball to look for an INT, and like you said, if it was a better throw, it would have been a long completion.

Our friend here who was good enough to put up the vid, wanted to show how the CB was able to "locate the ball" and defended the play.

It wasn't so.

I said it's good as long as the coverage called for the safety to help over the top; otherwise, it's a long completion for the offense.

This is a totally different scenario from a CB playing from a real trail position, and that was what I tried to explain to the poster who I gave plenty of kudos for putting up the vid.

We can see that if the CB was truly on an island with the receiver here, a good pass downfield and he would have been toast by "locating the ball".

A few other posters also agreed, locating the ball by turning the head needs to be done judicially, when the CB is in good position, otherwise he stands to lose much more often (it works sometimes on bad throws though - but that kind of defense is based on hope, if you know what I mean.)

EllisUnit
09-13-2012, 05:02 PM
I'll say this i saw a few things from KJ in the first game i liked and some i didnt like. He still isnt locating the ball on deep routes like he needs to be. That why he gave up that long reception to that white WR whos name i dont know.

76Texan
09-13-2012, 05:14 PM
I'll say this i saw a few things from KJ in the first game i liked and some i didnt like. He still isnt locating the ball on deep routes like he needs to be. That why he gave up that long reception to that white WR whos name i dont know.

Dude, wake up.

KJ gave up that play because he couldn't get into good enough position.

He needs to work harder to get into better position.

Rey's criticsim, I can understand 90-95% of the time.
Yours, not so much, I'm afraid.

OK, so I'm trying to understand here.

You said he still isn't locating the ball on deep route like he needs to be.

I hope you can explain to us what KJ needed to do here on this play.

And then maybe I can ask you to elaborate on some other plays later.

EllisUnit
09-13-2012, 05:29 PM
Dude, wake up.

KJ gave up that play because he couldn't get into good enough position.

He needs to work harder to get into better position.

Rey's criticsim, I can understand 90-95% of the time.
Yours, not so much, I'm afraid.

OK, so I'm trying to understand here.

You said he still isn't locating the ball on deep route like he needs to be.

I hope you can explain to us what KJ needed to do here on this play.

And then maybe I can ask you to elaborate on some other plays later.


he didnt turn to look for the ball, r put his hands up. saw same thing on two plays.......

welsh texan
09-13-2012, 05:30 PM
I could be completely wrong on this but I'll run it by you guys, in particular 76's take on this;

KJ has a weakness in deep coverage, but a real strength in the shorter game.

KJ will be picked on throughout a game because the QB doesn't want to throw it Joseph's way, less of a KJ thing and more of a JoJo thing.

Therefore when KJ turns and runs he knows there is a high chance of the ball getting thrown his way.

What I see, is that KJ has improved at staying with his receiver, but doesn't have the ability to get that step ahead of the play to where he can make a play on the ball himself, so ends up making the receivers life as difficult as possible to catch the ball instead.

This would seem to me, to be a coached tendency. KJ gave up a few big plays down the stretch last year where he had really tight coverage and it was simply a great throw & catch by the offence, the Julio Jones one springs to mind.

Why would he look to make a play on the ball at the risk of giving up an easy catch for a whole bunch of yardage? I don't get where the problem is here. He makes life difficult for the receiver and is turning what is a weakness into something where he's forcing a great play by the receiver rather than gambling and risking a huge loss.

I'd much rather watch the Texans lose to a bunch of great plays by an opposing offense, than watch them lose to a bunch of easy plays because of poor coaching. I'd also much prefer them to win dominantly and only give up 1 FG on D. So I really won't complain.

76, 18 months ago I was highly skeptical of what you were saying about KJ being able to come good, what I saw last season was a steady improvement and what I see now is a mostly reliable #2 CB which is more than what half the league have at the position. That makes it a really good pick in my view.

Speaks volumes of the previous Defensive staff that they thought he could lead the team as a rookie, but its all worked out in the end.

EllisUnit
09-13-2012, 05:34 PM
I could be completely wrong on this but I'll run it by you guys, in particular 76's take on this;

KJ has a weakness in deep coverage, but a real strength in the shorter game.

KJ will be picked on throughout a game because the QB doesn't want to throw it Joseph's way, less of a KJ thing and more of a JoJo thing.

Therefore when KJ turns and runs he knows there is a high chance of the ball getting thrown his way.

What I see, is that KJ has improved at staying with his receiver, but doesn't have the ability to get that step ahead of the play to where he can make a play on the ball himself, so ends up making the receivers life as difficult as possible to catch the ball instead.
This would seem to me, to be a coached tendency. KJ gave up a few big plays down the stretch last year where he had really tight coverage and it was simply a great throw & catch by the offence, the Julio Jones one springs to mind.

Why would he look to make a play on the ball at the risk of giving up an easy catch for a whole bunch of yardage? I don't get where the problem is here. He makes life difficult for the receiver and is turning what is a weakness into something where he's forcing a great play by the receiver rather than gambling and risking a huge loss.

I'd much rather watch the Texans lose to a bunch of great plays by an opposing offense, than watch them lose to a bunch of easy plays because of poor coaching. I'd also much prefer them to win dominantly and only give up 1 FG on D. So I really won't complain.

76, 18 months ago I was highly skeptical of what you were saying about KJ being able to come good, what I saw last season was a steady improvement and what I see now is a mostly reliable #2 CB which is more than what half the league have at the position. That makes it a really good pick in my view.

Speaks volumes of the previous Defensive staff that they thought he could lead the team as a rookie, but its all worked out in the end.

our just get pass interference called on him A LOT, which is what will happen

thunderkyss
09-13-2012, 05:41 PM
That why he gave up that long reception to that white WR whos name i dont know.

Did he just say what I think he said?

:toropalm:

welsh texan
09-13-2012, 05:43 PM
our just get pass interference called on him A LOT, which is what will happen

Think KJ found a way to improve on that front midway through last season? Not got the stats to hand but don't think you could say he did it 'A LOT'.

Also don't forget that sometimes a corner is put in a position where the choice is 50 yard PI or 70 yard TD and which is the better option to give up? I've seen him make that solid decision when beaten a couple of times and would frankly see that a sound decision making, again, it comes down to minimizing a weakness.

EllisUnit
09-13-2012, 05:47 PM
2:04 mark.......http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/0ap2000000059697/Ryan-Tannehill-highlights

EllisUnit
09-13-2012, 05:48 PM
Think KJ found a way to improve on that front midway through last season? Not got the stats to hand but don't think you could say he did it 'A LOT'.

Also don't forget that sometimes a corner is put in a position where the choice is 50 yard PI or 70 yard TD and which is the better option to give up? I've seen him make that solid decision when beaten a couple of times and would frankly see that a sound decision making, again, it comes down to minimizing a weakness.

key word is sometimes. but how often does KJ ever look back for the ball ???

thunderkyss
09-13-2012, 05:52 PM
Speaks volumes of the previous Defensive staff that they thought he could lead the team as a rookie, but its all worked out in the end.

I think it speaks volumes about coach speak. We can not believe everything they tell us. They are going to say the least damaging thing about the organization.

The Texans had already told Dunta, "See ya!!" then they wasted too much time with Boden. By the time they figured we weren't getting Boden, the FA market for CBs dried up. We didn't have any players worth entertaining a trade & they did not want to (I presume) deal any draft picks.

They can not say, "Well, we screwed that up guys..... " Instead, they say, "We feel pretty good with what we've got."

Coach speak. They knew they were going to struggle.

76Texan
09-13-2012, 05:59 PM
I could be completely wrong on this but I'll run it by you guys, in particular 76's take on this;

KJ has a weakness in deep coverage, but a real strength in the shorter game.

KJ will be picked on throughout a game because the QB doesn't want to throw it Joseph's way, less of a KJ thing and more of a JoJo thing.

Therefore when KJ turns and runs he knows there is a high chance of the ball getting thrown his way.

What I see, is that KJ has improved at staying with his receiver, but doesn't have the ability to get that step ahead of the play to where he can make a play on the ball himself, so ends up making the receivers life as difficult as possible to catch the ball instead.

This would seem to me, to be a coached tendency. KJ gave up a few big plays down the stretch last year where he had really tight coverage and it was simply a great throw & catch by the offence, the Julio Jones one springs to mind.

Why would he look to make a play on the ball at the risk of giving up an easy catch for a whole bunch of yardage? I don't get where the problem is here. He makes life difficult for the receiver and is turning what is a weakness into something where he's forcing a great play by the receiver rather than gambling and risking a huge loss.

I'd much rather watch the Texans lose to a bunch of great plays by an opposing offense, than watch them lose to a bunch of easy plays because of poor coaching. I'd also much prefer them to win dominantly and only give up 1 FG on D. So I really won't complain.

76, 18 months ago I was highly skeptical of what you were saying about KJ being able to come good, what I saw last season was a steady improvement and what I see now is a mostly reliable #2 CB which is more than what half the league have at the position. That makes it a really good pick in my view.

Speaks volumes of the previous Defensive staff that they thought he could lead the team as a rookie, but its all worked out in the end.

Excellent!

Right there is the core.

If KJ can get past that stage (and really, a lot of it is mental), I think he can be a bona-fide CB in this league.

IMO, KJ is a solid #2 CB due to his overall skill set.
He has got to take the next step if he wants to be a shutdown at #2 and/or a solid at #1.

EllisUnit
09-13-2012, 06:04 PM
Excellent!

Right there is the core.

If KJ can get past that stage (and really, a lot of it is mental), I think he can be a bona-fide CB in this league.

IMO, KJ is a solid #2 CB due to his overall skill set.
He has got to take the next step if he wants to be a shutdown at #2 and/or a solid at #1.

Well all i know is that if a CB doesnt "TRY" to locate the ball they often get PI calls on them. So he needs to Pretend he is looking for it at the very least. I dont see how its a good thing that he never tries to locate the ball.

If i was an O.C i would go deep against KJ every play hell he would get PI called against him 2 out of 4 plays if he was even close enough to touch the WR.

76Texan
09-13-2012, 06:13 PM
Another thing I think should be taken into great consideration.

The more you see the SS coming down to play the run, the more you know the DC is condifent in the CBs.

The DC would feel more confident to send in a Safety blitz when he feels like his CBs can handle it on an island.

Let's not compare KJ with a cover 2 corner.

He played a good part in Wade's scheme last year; I expect him to do more this year.

I kid you not, Wade will take KJ over any CB he had with the Cowboys (at least the last 2 years I watched them play under Wade).

76Texan
09-13-2012, 06:24 PM
Well all i know is that if a CB doesnt "TRY" to locate the ball they often get PI calls on them. So he needs to Pretend he is looking for it at the very least. I dont see how its a good thing that he never tries to locate the ball.

If i was an O.C i would go deep against KJ every play hell he would get PI called against him 2 out of 4 plays if he was even close enough to touch the WR.

I hope you're a OC!

But that is besides the point.

Like I said, I don't dislike you Ellis. But you never talk about techniques and how the DB should play besides "pretending".

You certainly can have your opinion.
I respond to your opinions more often than I should.
Truly, you should read many posts (not just mine) in response to your concern.

Simply Crying is the same as Obama's hoping, sorry to say (I don't dislike Obama either, LOL!)

EllisUnit
09-13-2012, 06:30 PM
I hope you're a OC!

But that is besides the point.

Like I said, I don't dislike you Ellis. But you never talk about techniques and how the DB should play besides "pretending".

You certainly can have your opinion.
I respond to your opinions more often than I should.
Truly, you should read many posts (not just mine) in response to your concern.

Simply Crying is the same as Obama's hoping, sorry to say (I don't dislike Obama either, LOL!)

Dude come on.
are you telling me a CB wont get flagged for PI more often than not if he dont turn to locate the ball ??? This right here is common knowledge that even the least interested fan knows.