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Playoffs
08-02-2012, 10:19 AM
Texans: Kevin Walter is not a second-rate No. 2 receiver (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/texans/story/2012-08-01/texans-offense-receivers/56671564/1)

He turns 31 soon, which isn't old. But Kevin Walter is wise, his 10 seasons in the NFL not at all a fluke.

Then again, it might be a surprise to learn he has spent the past six seasons with the Houston Texans, serving as their de facto best wide receiver not named Andre Johnson. And it might be unsettling to discover he's likely been the most reliable Texan of recent recall — since 2007, Walter has played in 77 of 80 regular-season games, starting 75.

And yet he hears the chatter about how Houston should upgrade at the No. 2 wide receiver, which is his role. The noise is usually loudest this time of the year, around training camp, and Walter shakes his head and laughs.

"People can say whatever," he said Wednesday. "I don't care what people think."

That's because he knows how his teammates and coaches feel about him.

"If you ask anyone in our locker room who's the most underrated player, the most important player or the unsung hero of our team, it's Kevin," Texans quarterback Matt Schaub said. "Every time, hands down. No question..."

read more: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/texans/story/2012-08-01/texans-offense-receivers/56671564/1

Texn4life
08-02-2012, 10:26 AM
Kevin seems like a great guy, hard worker, and an awesome teammate. Its not his fault that the organization has placed him in this No. 2 receiver role for so long. He does some very good things in this offense for us though, and I love having him on the team. His weaknesses are just exposed sometimes especially when Andre is out. In this league you have to be able to beat man coverage at times, and he just doesn't have that ability to do that consistently right now. However he's savvy enough to find open seams in zone.

Double Barrel
08-02-2012, 12:21 PM
I've always liked Walter, but stopped defending him in the forum years ago because I perceived a majority bias against him. I just let the coaching staff's decisions speak for themselves, which has been quite clear in their confidence in him as our no. 2 receiver for years.

Rey
08-02-2012, 12:35 PM
Kevin Walter doesn't suck. That said his competition at the spot has been jacoby jones and now a bunch of rookies and udfa's.

If the texans had drafted or signed a legit wr kw likely would have been on the bench.

It can be said that they have not addressed the wr spot because of kw, but I just think we've adressed issues that were more pressing.

Kw would be an excellent 3rd or 4th wr. Personally I'd rather have another guy be the #2 that can actually play spot duty as the #1 in the very likely event Andre misses some time.

I guess my biggest problem with kw is andre's health if that makes any sense.

I love kw. I hope he has a big year because despite his drop in numbers he's not a bad wr. I just don't know if it's going to play out like that.

Thorn
08-02-2012, 12:38 PM
he runs good routes and has made some good catches for us. considering everything, I'm glad to have him. To unseat him, someone is going to have to be pretty good.

carear stats: and he hasn't had a fumble since 2006

http://www.nfl.com/player/kevinwalter/2505453/careerstats

ObsiWan
08-02-2012, 12:51 PM
he runs good routes and has made some good catches for us. considering everything, I'm glad to have him. To unseat him, someone is going to have to be pretty good.

carear stats: and he hasn't had a fumble since 2006

http://www.nfl.com/player/kevinwalter/2505453/careerstats

This^^^

He's not flashy or anything but he brings his lunch pail and goes to work. He took a salary cut for the team. And I'm sure some will say it was that or "hit the road" but do we KNOW that? Has anyone from the Smithiak camp come out and SAID that?

I totally agree with Thorn, someone will have to be pretty good to take away his job. Maybe in a couple of years one of the current crop of kids...

gtexan02
08-02-2012, 12:52 PM
Kevin Walter is one of those guys that thrives with a true #1. I think what people are worried about with him is that he isn't the kind of receiver that can step into that #1 role when a guy like AJ goes down

Thorn
08-02-2012, 01:00 PM
Kevin Walter is one of those guys that thrives with a true #1. I think what people are worried about with him is that he isn't the kind of receiver that can step into that #1 role when a guy like AJ goes down

Walter doesn't have the speed to be a true #1 reciever, I don't think anyone would argue with that. What he is, is a workhorse #2 and is pretty good at it. We need someone to be coaching up to eventually replace AJ as the #1. Walter isn't that guy, but like you said, he's a darn good #2.

Rey
08-02-2012, 01:00 PM
Kevin Walter is one of those guys that thrives with a true #1. I think what people are worried about with him is that he isn't the kind of receiver that can step into that #1 role when a guy like AJ goes down

That's pretty much how I feel.

If Aj goes down you have to rely on bench players to pick up the receiving slack.

Thorn
08-02-2012, 01:01 PM
This^^^

He's not flashy or anything but he brings his lunch pail and goes to work. He took a salary cut for the team. And I'm sure some will say it was that or "hit the road" but do we KNOW that? Has anyone from the Smithiak camp come out and SAID that?
I totally agree with Thorn, someone will have to be pretty good to take away his job. Maybe in a couple of years one of the current crop of kids...

Yeah, that's something I think is just an internet rumor thing.

ObsiWan
08-02-2012, 01:06 PM
Kevin Walter doesn't suck. That said his competition at the spot has been jacoby jones and now a bunch of rookies and udfa's.

If the texans had drafted or signed a legit wr kw likely would have been on the bench.

It can be said that they have not addressed the wr spot because of kw, but I just think we've adressed issues that were more pressing.

Kw would be an excellent 3rd or 4th wr. Personally I'd rather have another guy be the #2 that can actually play spot duty as the #1 in the very likely event Andre misses some time.

I guess my biggest problem with kw is andre's health if that makes any sense.

I love kw. I hope he has a big year because despite his drop in numbers he's not a bad wr. I just don't know if it's going to play out like that.

Examples please...?
And I mean guys we had a shot to get...

I mean would you rather have drafted a KW replacement unit with one of our 1sts or keep who we drafted -- Mercilus, or Watt, or Cushing (yes, I purposely omitted K.Jackson)...

...or would you rather have to pay through the nose to sign some "name" vet. And I can't think of anyone we can afford or who wouldn't have put us much deeper in salary cap hell...

I guess my bottom line question is... who would you erase from the roster to get the KW replacement unit? And who would that guy be?

ObsiWan
08-02-2012, 01:13 PM
Kevin Walter is one of those guys that thrives with a true #1. I think what people are worried about with him is that he isn't the kind of receiver that can step into that #1 role when a guy like AJ goes down

That's pretty much how I feel.

If Aj goes down you have to rely on bench players to pick up the receiving slack.

The closest guy we had to an A.J. replacement was Andre Davis. He stepped up his game in '07 when A.J. went down. The next year he hardly saw the field because A.J. would never come out of a game.

TexansFight
08-02-2012, 01:13 PM
DeVier Posey is going I light up for us and be the real number 2 IMO

Thorn
08-02-2012, 01:17 PM
DeVier Posey is going I light up for us and be the real number 2 IMO

I think it's more important for the Texans to be looking for a true #1 to replace AJ. But if someone is good enough to beat out Walter for his spot, then we'll be a better team for it.

Getting to attached to individual players will always get your emotions hurt in the end because they never last forever. I have already made that mistake with Foster, so I'm lucky they signed him to a long term deal.

Ryan
08-02-2012, 03:40 PM
I think it's more important for the Texans to be looking for a true #1 to replace AJ. But if someone is good enough to beat out Walter for his spot, then we'll be a better team for it.

Getting to attached to individual players will always get your emotions hurt in the end because they never last forever. I have already made that mistake with Foster, so I'm lucky they signed him to a long term deal.


I don't think anyone currently on the roster has true #1 potential. I think Posey can be a great pro but he's better fit for a #2 spot and I think can be great in that role down the line. The jury is out on Lestar Jean and i usually refrain from talking about him because i've seen next to nothing outside of one or two preseason catches. Martin looks like a lethal future slot guy for us.

Texn4life
08-02-2012, 03:45 PM
Walter doesn't have the speed to be a true #1 reciever, I don't think anyone would argue with that. What he is, is a workhorse #2 and is pretty good at it. We need someone to be coaching up to eventually replace AJ as the #1. Walter isn't that guy, but like you said, he's a darn good #2.

I would disagree that he's a darn good #2. He's an adequate #2 for what we do, but saying he's darn good is stretching it. He's in the bottom third as far as #2 receivers are concerned in terms of receiving ability. His intangibles make him valuable to the team though. I've said this plenty of times that I would love him as our #3 receiver, but as many have said we don't have a better option at the #2 spot at this point. I hope he proves me wrong and shows me that he can beat man coverage, but I just haven't seen it on a consistent basis these last 2 years.

Double Barrel
08-02-2012, 03:49 PM
Walter was picked up as a possession receiver, and I don't think they ever intended for him to be a no. 1 receiver. He's a compliment to AJ, not a replacement.

infantrycak
08-02-2012, 03:51 PM
Walter was picked up as a possession receiver, and I don't think they ever intended for him to be a no. 1 receiver. He's a compliment to AJ, not a replacement.

Exactly. That's why whenever AJ has gone down KW has stayed in the same role and they have had Andre Davis or JJ practice/play the #1 role.

Rey
08-02-2012, 03:54 PM
I guess my bottom line question is... who would you erase from the roster to get the KW replacement unit? And who would that guy be?

My point was that there were other more pressing needs on the team for us to address.

I dont remember every wr that was within reason of us getting through free agency, trade or the draft.

And the first round isn't the only place to find a wr.

76Texan
08-02-2012, 03:55 PM
Walter was picked up as a possession receiver, and I don't think they ever intended for him to be a no. 1 receiver. He's a compliment to AJ, not a replacement.

What he said!

KW is a very good receiver for our scheme.
He does it all, consistently - the things Kubiak asks of him.

badboy
08-02-2012, 04:02 PM
Kevin Walter doesn't suck. That said his competition at the spot has been jacoby jones and now a bunch of rookies and udfa's.

If the texans had drafted or signed a legit wr kw likely would have been on the bench.

It can be said that they have not addressed the wr spot because of kw, but I just think we've adressed issues that were more pressing.

Kw would be an excellent 3rd or 4th wr. Personally I'd rather have another guy be the #2 that can actually play spot duty as the #1 in the very likely event Andre misses some time.

I guess my biggest problem with kw is andre's health if that makes any sense.

I love kw. I hope he has a big year because despite his drop in numbers he's not a bad wr. I just don't know if it's going to play out like that.Exactly. Walter is #2 but not a #2 if you know what I'm saying. If AJ and I are the only two receivers on a team, I am WR2.

76Texan
08-02-2012, 04:03 PM
I don't think anyone currently on the roster has true #1 potential. I think Posey can be a great pro but he's better fit for a #2 spot and I think can be great in that role down the line. The jury is out on Lestar Jean and i usually refrain from talking about him because i've seen next to nothing outside of one or two preseason catches. Martin looks like a lethal future slot guy for us.

Posey can stretch the field and he runs good route and has good hands.
Those are some qualifications for a #1.
He does have potential.

However, to ask a third round pick to fulfill that role is way too much.

I will be happy if he can replace Walter in a few years.

Speedy
08-02-2012, 04:03 PM
And KW plays a big role in the running game too. With a stud #1 and some TEs that can do some damage, I'll take what KW brings all day long. As others have said, it's when that stud #1 goes down, it's not going to be KW stepping in. He's just not that guy.

El Tejano
08-02-2012, 04:09 PM
He caught THE pass!!! Enough said.

drs23
08-02-2012, 04:14 PM
He caught THE pass!!! Enough said.

Thank you El Tejano. He did indeed. I wish my last year's games hadn't been erased. I can't find that whole game on Youtube. I'd really like to watch the whole thing again. :mad:

badboy
08-02-2012, 04:20 PM
Examples please...?
And I mean guys we had a shot to get...

I mean would you rather have drafted a KW replacement unit with one of our 1sts or keep who we drafted -- Mercilus, or Watt, or Cushing (yes, I purposely omitted K.Jackson)...

...or would you rather have to pay through the nose to sign some "name" vet. And I can't think of anyone we can afford or who wouldn't have put us much deeper in salary cap hell...

I guess my bottom line question is... who would you erase from the roster to get the KW replacement unit? And who would that guy be?I don't think you can make such a statement and then say whoopsies on KJ. Demaryius Thomas instead of Kareem. Also, Mohammed Sanu in 3rd round rather than Posey.

badboy
08-02-2012, 04:21 PM
Posey can stretch the field and he runs good route and has good hands.
Those are some qualifications for a #1.
He does have potential.

However, to ask a third round pick to fulfill that role is way too much.

I will be happy if he can replace Walter in a few years.I think Posey was drafted to replace Jacoby not Walter.

Texecutioner
08-02-2012, 04:38 PM
Enough with the BS and the coddling of Walter.

Walter is below average. People can bring up all of these little things he does like blocking, working hard, and running the routes that he supposed to run, but he is not a play maker. He has had one good season here with the Texans. At this point in his career he is a really bad #2 WR that should have been replaced at least two seasons ago along with Jacoby Jones.

rush2112mn
08-02-2012, 04:43 PM
Kevin Walter does not get enough credit for the job he does.....He may not get the receiving yards....but he does the stuff to get other players open on this team. He is respected by his teammates for his work ethic.

Thorn
08-02-2012, 04:59 PM
Kevin Walter does not get enough credit for the job he does.....He may not get the receiving yards....but he does the stuff to get other players open on this team. He is respected by his teammates for his work ethic.

That, to me, is important. Walter is not going to suddenly transform himself into an all-pro, and we all know it. But he's good at what he does. And like I said earlier, that doesn't mean he can't be beaten out for his slot. He ain't the best #2 in the league, but for our purposes, he does what he's supposed to do. We just are not stacked at the reciever position like we are at RB and TE, that's just a fact.

Texecutioner
08-02-2012, 05:08 PM
Kevin Walter does not get enough credit for the job he does.....He may not get the receiving yards....but he does the stuff to get other players open on this team. He is respected by his teammates for his work ethic.

Oh yes he does. He gets way to much credit. No one is interested in having a #2 WR on your team that isn't a play maker. You can find tons of lunch pale guys who can block and do other things in this league. The Texans need a play maker at the #2 spot. Walter shouldn't be anywhere higher than the #3 spot on our WR roster. This is a typical player that people would laugh at if he played for the Jags or the Titans.

Double Barrel
08-02-2012, 06:15 PM
How many teams have a possession receiver that is a play-maker? And I distinctly remember him MAKING A PLAY last season that was huge in securing our playoff spot.

When you have our starting QB, starting all pro WR, and coaching staff singing praise for the guy, I don't see "coddling". That just comes across as hating on the guy for wanting him to be something that he's never been and was never billed to be.

drs23
08-02-2012, 06:22 PM
How many teams have a possession receiver that is a play-maker? And I distinctly remember him MAKING A PLAY last season that was huge in securing our playoff spot.

When you have our starting QB, starting all pro WR, and coaching staff singing praise for the guy, I don't see "coddling". That just comes across as hating on the guy for wanting him to be something that he's never been and was never billed to be.

Thanks DB, great post.

MSR

Texecutioner
08-02-2012, 07:35 PM
How many teams have a possession receiver that is a play-maker? And I distinctly remember him MAKING A PLAY last season that was huge in securing our playoff spot.

When you have our starting QB, starting all pro WR, and coaching staff singing praise for the guy, I don't see "coddling". That just comes across as hating on the guy for wanting him to be something that he's never been and was never billed to be.

He is a #3 to #4 guy at this point of his career. He had one really solid season for the Texans as a #2 WR. That's it. If you want to call it hating than fine, I'm hating, but that sounds lazy. That word itself really needs to be abolished, because people misuse it to frequently. Someone criticizes a player they like, and they just come back saying "you're hating". I find that to be lazy. If I came in here and started criticizing Foster for all of these random things, than that would be a little understandable, but Walter?? Lol! Come on man, at this point in his career he is no different than the kid that gets a starting QB position because his dad is the coach in Little League.

There are plenty of teams that have play making WR's at the #2 position. I didn't say that the Texans needed a #1 WR at the #2 position. Just that they needed a play making WR at the #2 position. If AJ gets hurt again, Walter is incapable of being anything that can make teams even wince at our passing attack. Walter is average and nothing more. He is one of those typical guys that only gets praised around here because he is a Texan and has played here for a few years and is a nice guy. No one would even bat an eye at him if he played somewhere else. He isn't even relevant at this point honestly.

HJam72
08-02-2012, 07:44 PM
He is a #3 to #4 guy at this point of his career. He had one really solid season for the Texans as a #2 WR. That's it. If you want to call it hating than fine, I'm hating, but that sounds lazy. That word itself really needs to be abolished, because people misuse it to frequently. Someone criticizes a player they like, and they just come back saying "you're hating". I find that to be lazy. If I came in here and started criticizing Foster for all of these random things, than that would be a little understandable, but Walter?? Lol! Come on man, at this point in his career he is no different than the kid that gets a starting QB position because his dad is the coach in Little League.

There are plenty of teams that have play making WR's at the #2 position. I didn't say that the Texans needed a #1 WR at the #2 position. Just that they needed a play making WR at the #2 position. If AJ gets hurt again, Walter is incapable of being anything that can make teams even wince at our passing attack. Walter is average and nothing more. He is one of those typical guys that only gets praised around here because he is a Texan and has played here for a few years and is a nice guy. No one would even bat an eye at him if he played somewhere else. He isn't even relevant at this point honestly.

All I read was the bolded part, because that's all I need to see that you're a hater. :jk:

Texecutioner
08-02-2012, 07:53 PM
All I read was the bolded part, because that's all I need to see that you're a hater. :jk:

I like Walter though man. Good guy and a hard worker, no question. This isn't about giving out medals for sportsmanship even though that seems to be more important to many fans in Houston. This is about trying to put the best team together that you can while you are in that small window to compete for a SB. Walter and Jacoby should have been replaced two seasons ago.

Texan_Bill
08-02-2012, 07:59 PM
Yates to Walter. TD!!! = Texans playoff birth. :hurrah:

Walter is big, strong and tough. A perfect slot receiver. I'm not sure who the folks are that criticize him are, but maybe they should understand what a slot receiver does.

The only thing the Texans need is a receiver in a 3 receiver set that can be a deep threat opposite of Andre and G*d forbid if Andre goes down, become the #1.

76Texan
08-02-2012, 08:06 PM
He is a #3 to #4 guy at this point of his career. He had one really solid season for the Texans as a #2 WR. That's it. If you want to call it hating than fine, I'm hating, but that sounds lazy. That word itself really needs to be abolished, because people misuse it to frequently. Someone criticizes a player they like, and they just come back saying "you're hating". I find that to be lazy. If I came in here and started criticizing Foster for all of these random things, than that would be a little understandable, but Walter?? Lol! Come on man, at this point in his career he is no different than the kid that gets a starting QB position because his dad is the coach in Little League.

There are plenty of teams that have play making WR's at the #2 position. I didn't say that the Texans needed a #1 WR at the #2 position. Just that they needed a play making WR at the #2 position. If AJ gets hurt again, Walter is incapable of being anything that can make teams even wince at our passing attack. Walter is average and nothing more. He is one of those typical guys that only gets praised around here because he is a Texan and has played here for a few years and is a nice guy. No one would even bat an eye at him if he played somewhere else. He isn't even relevant at this point honestly.

Tex, different teams are built differently.

A spread team would have more receivers on the rosters (instead of a certain combination of FB and TEs).

The ball distribution would be different.

I suggest that you look for a source that shows how many routes a receiver run in all of his 16-game season (which you won't find).

From there, you can look at different things: Was he open and the QB didn't go his way? Was he running a clearing route such that the defense left another receiver open? How many catchable balls thrown his way that he caught or dropped.

Then you can come back and tell me which receivers in this league are play-makers as the real #2.

In our offense, one of the TEs is a key part of the passing offense, and the RB is another one.

I understand your wanting to have the best at each position (which would be a different discussion altogether due to several factors), but at the same time, your criteria is not set correctly, I'm afraid.

76Texan
08-02-2012, 08:09 PM
What I mean is that you can bring in some receivers you think is a playmaker on other team, and they won't have the same production they had had with some other teams.

Texecutioner
08-02-2012, 08:14 PM
Tex, different teams are built differently.

A spread team would have more receivers on the rosters (instead of a certain combination of FB and TEs).

The ball distribution would be different.

I suggest that you look for a source that shows how many routes a receiver run in all of his 16-game season (which you won't find).

From there, you can look at different things: Was he open and the QB didn't go his way? Was he running a clearing route such that the defense left another receiver open? How many catchable balls thrown his way that he caught or dropped.

Then you can come back and tell me which receivers in this league are play-makers as the real #2.

In our offense, one of the TEs is a key part of the passing offense, and the RB is another one.

I understand your wanting to have the best at each position (which would be a different discussion altogether due to several factors), but at the same time, your criteria is not set correctly, I'm afraid.

These are all valid points, but at the end of the day Walter is our #2 WR on the depth chart. He is the 2nd option in our passing game as far as the WR's go. He is a guy who simply is average man. Is his blocking average? No, but you don't continue to keep a guy in your important offensive plans that much for years because of his blocking and his great attitude. There are lots of players with a great attitude around the league and a lot of guys that can also bring a better dynamic to an offense than what Walter can at this point. He has served his purpose here, but at the end of the day there isn't a team in the league that worries about Walter on any Sunday. We have had plenty of opportunities to upgrade this WR core, and at some point the Texans need to abandon this boyscout only mentality for their roster and start considering other guys who can contribute more potentially.

What I mean is that you can bring in some receivers you think is a playmaker on other team, and they won't have the same production they had had with some other teams.


That is definitely true. Take Welker for example. Great WR. One of the best in the league, but I don't think for a second that he'd be a dynamic WR on just any team without a guy like Brady or Brees throwing to him in a system where that fits Welker's skills. Welker could not easily be replaced in NE's system though. Walter could easily be replaced in ours though.

beerlover
08-02-2012, 08:20 PM
You can bet Andre Johnson would like to be as durable as Kevin Walter.

Texecutioner
08-02-2012, 08:23 PM
You can bet Andre Johnson would like to be as durable as Kevin Walter.

Walter doesn't take near the hits and collisions that Andre has had to absorb over the years. Not really a fair comparison.

BCRich
08-02-2012, 08:23 PM
Posey can stretch the field and he runs good route and has good hands.
Those are some qualifications for a #1.
He does have potential.

However, to ask a third round pick to fulfill that role is way too much.


Exactly, especially a third rounder from Lane college, or a street FA cut from someone's bench.

When Ochocinco couldn't make the game, who stepped up, the #2 WR (wHosYormama) or Chris Henry?

When Marvin Harrison didn't make the game, who stepped up? the #2 WR (Wayne) or whoever their third WR was?

I'm not opposed to KDub being the best possesion WR in the league..... but that's Ricky Proehl, behind Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, & Az Hakeem.

BCRich
08-02-2012, 08:26 PM
Kevin Walter does not get enough credit for the job he does.....He may not get the receiving yards....but he does the stuff to get other players open on this team. He is respected by his teammates for his work ethic.

Let's make him a blocking TE & call it a day.

Texecutioner
08-02-2012, 08:27 PM
Let's make him a blocking TE & call it a day.

This^^^ :lion:

BCRich
08-02-2012, 08:29 PM
How many teams have a possession receiver that is a play-maker? And I distinctly remember him MAKING A PLAY last season that was huge in securing our playoff spot.

When you have our starting QB, starting all pro WR, and coaching staff singing praise for the guy, I don't see "coddling". That just comes across as hating on the guy for wanting him to be something that he's never been and was never billed to be.

No, we want him to play the position he is suited for..... slot WR, #3 WR.

Jumping on Jacoby for not being a #1 WR while KDub remains in obscurity, that's hating.

Texecutioner
08-02-2012, 08:34 PM
No, we want him to play the position he is suited for..... slot WR, #3 WR.

Jumping on Jacoby for not being a #1 WR while KDub remains in obscurity, that's hating.

That's what I've wondered for a while. JJ deserved all of the criticism he got for years, but why on earth Walter somehow freed himself of it is beyond me. Sure he blocks, has pretty good hands and all, but what about getting open and being consistent? Walter has been just as much of a disappointment in the grand scheme of things if you ask me. Been here longer, been in the league longer, and has had a lot more trust from the coaching staff over the years. He had one very good year here as our #2, but other than that, he has just been an average player.

Texan_Bill
08-02-2012, 08:43 PM
You can bet Andre Johnson would like to be as durable as Kevin Walter.

Walter doesn't take near the hits and collisions that Andre has had to absorb over the years. Not really a fair comparison.

Yes AND not necessarily.

As a slot receiver, you have safeties and linebackers attacking you. I am not discounting the physical play of corners and one safety "that always know and targets" where AJ is on the field.

AJ's issues have been more about his own body effin' with because there's no DB in the league that will knock him out.

BCRich
08-02-2012, 08:45 PM
Yes AND not necessarily.

As a slot receiver, you have safeties and linebackers attacking you. I am not discounting the physical play of corners and one safety "that always know and targets" where AJ is on the field.

AJ's issues have been more about his own body effin' with because there's no DB in the league that will knock him out.

I think the point was that Aj catches a lot more balls than KW..... so he gets tackled more often.

TheMatrix31
08-02-2012, 08:48 PM
Love Kevin Walter. One of, if not the most unsung players on our team every year.

Good blocking, good route runner, tough as hell, comes through when called upon. I seriously couldn't imagine not having him on this team. Personally, I think he's underutilized.

The Pencil Neck
08-02-2012, 09:09 PM
That's what I've wondered for a while. JJ deserved all of the criticism he got for years, but why on earth Walter somehow freed himself of it is beyond me. Sure he blocks, has pretty good hands and all, but what about getting open and being consistent? Walter has been just as much of a disappointment in the grand scheme of things if you ask me. Been here longer, been in the league longer, and has had a lot more trust from the coaching staff over the years. He had one very good year here as our #2, but other than that, he has just been an average player.

30-286-0 vs. 65-800-4
32-386-2 vs. 60-899-8
39-426-0 vs. 53-611-2
28-204-0 vs. 51-621-5
49-518-1 vs. 39-474-3

JJ got criticism because he had all the talent in the world and only had 1 season where he out-performed KW. Jacoby's best season was only slightly better than KW's worst.

KW had two really good seasons where he caught anything that was thrown to him. In 2007 and 2008, he was money. And a lot of people remember that. But he hasn't been as good the past 3 years.

KW is a player who is in his niche. Regardless of any great receivers we end up with, KW's going to have a spot and he's going to get minutes because he's like another tight end out there and that's what this offense is based on. Like you said, he's not really a #2 per se. KW is our number 3 and he pretty much has been since 2009.

The problem is that we haven't had a #2 since 2008 when KW was making plays. The crazy thing is that this offense has run like a top even without that secondary threat.

But in name, KW is the #2 guy because he's the second best, second most important receiver on the team.

76Texan
08-02-2012, 09:18 PM
Love Kevin Walter. One of, if not the most unsung players on our team every year.

Good blocking, good route runner, tough as hell, comes through when called upon. I seriously couldn't imagine not having him on this team. Personally, I think he's underutilized.

In all actuality, KW has had a pretty good career with the Texans considering we're a team that employs a FB (ie., stressing the running game), 2 and 3-TE sets.

The only "down" year was last year, where due to the partials facts that Schaub went down and AJ went down, the emergence of Tate on top Foster (especially as a receiver out the backfield), a couple of very capable catching TEs, not to mention the versatile Casey.

(Insert TPN's summary of the stats here)

The guys that we really targeted in the passing game (when they were healthy) were AJ, OD, and Foster.

It's not so much that any guy was under-utilized (even though cases can certainly be made), but I think it's more of a case with Kukiak looking for a "happy medium" in the sense of giving the team the best chance to win games.

For the most part, I think Kubiak is a "percentage" guy who believes in sound football fundamentals.

Who can blames him?

It's a good, consistent system that can move the ball and can score.
It can deal with pressure against the passing game.
It also chew out the clock to give the defense the needed rest.

Some of the players, depending on the particular year, due to the make-up of the team have to stay as role players.
That's the way it is.

When AJ's time come to retire, his salary will be enough that eventually we can bring in another receiver to take his place; it won't be easy, but with that money, it's not hard to think that we can find at least a decent replacement.

In the meantime, we can hope that a young guy can step up and save us some money so we can be more flexible with cap room regarding that position in the future when we need to replace AJ.

steelbtexan
08-02-2012, 09:24 PM
Examples please...?
And I mean guys we had a shot to get...

I mean would you rather have drafted a KW replacement unit with one of our 1sts or keep who we drafted -- Mercilus, or Watt, or Cushing (yes, I purposely omitted K.Jackson)...

...or would you rather have to pay through the nose to sign some "name" vet. And I can't think of anyone we can afford or who wouldn't have put us much deeper in salary cap hell...

I guess my bottom line question is... who would you erase from the roster to get the KW replacement unit? And who would that guy be?

I would've given up the draft picks used to pick Posey/Crick and next yrs 3rd to trade up and pick Stephen Hill.

Hill has unreal ability and for some reason I'm just not a believer in Posey. I hope I'm wrong on Posey. They need Posey to light it up this yr if AJ only plays 8-10 games.

BTW, Walter is a good WR3 and a great guy to have on the team.

Rey
08-02-2012, 09:34 PM
Last year kubiak basically admitted that kw was not a number 2 receiver when he said that if you combined Walter and jacoby you'd have a really good number two....or something like that.

Kw needs to step up his receiving game or look to be replaced. It's really as simple as that.

Goldensilence
08-02-2012, 09:40 PM
This^^^

He's not flashy or anything but he brings his lunch pail and goes to work. He took a salary cut for the team. And I'm sure some will say it was that or "hit the road" but do we KNOW that? Has anyone from the Smithiak camp come out and SAID that?

I totally agree with Thorn, someone will have to be pretty good to take away his job. Maybe in a couple of years one of the current crop of kids...

I don't think anyone NEEDS to come out and say it. When your boss asks you to take a pay cut...what's the underlying implication?

I don't think its that anyone like Texcutioner doesn't LIKE Walter or the effort he brings to the table and all the small things he does. It's just that usually those kind of guys at WR are #3's or are slot receivers, not outside.

WR has become what the RB position was for years and then became safety. Glaring need that even casual fans notice, but the FO doesn't seem to care to do enough to TRUELY address.

Do I HOPE these three young guys work out at WR? Most definitely, it's possible our season depends on getting some kind of big play from one of the three every week.

My bigger concern is that this current staff has NEVER developed even a decent WR.... I hope these guys break that trend.

76Texan
08-02-2012, 09:40 PM
These are all valid points, but at the end of the day Walter is our #2 WR on the depth chart. He is the 2nd option in our passing game as far as the WR's go. He is a guy who simply is average man. Is his blocking average? No, but you don't continue to keep a guy in your important offensive plans that much for years because of his blocking and his great attitude. There are lots of players with a great attitude around the league and a lot of guys that can also bring a better dynamic to an offense than what Walter can at this point. He has served his purpose here, but at the end of the day there isn't a team in the league that worries about Walter on any Sunday. We have had plenty of opportunities to upgrade this WR core, and at some point the Texans need to abandon this boyscout only mentality for their roster and start considering other guys who can contribute more potentially.




That is definitely true. Take Welker for example. Great WR. One of the best in the league, but I don't think for a second that he'd be a dynamic WR on just any team without a guy like Brady or Brees throwing to him in a system where that fits Welker's skills. Welker could not easily be replaced in NE's system though. Walter could easily be replaced in ours though.

Well, a lot of us in the mock draft area was looking to find a good receiver in the draft to possibly groom as a replacement for AJ eventually.

We discusses the possibilty of another veteran WR as well.

Having an immediate-producing veteran that fits this system would cost money that I don't think we have (I'm not a cap expert, but there are guys on here who are really good).

There a good receivers out there that won't want to "really" block hard for the RBs, I can guarantee that.

Lots of nuances to cover.

It's not the simple matter about a guy who can make some plays.
It's not Madden where you can plug in any guy you like and can be sure that it will work.

Again, I understand that you - just like any of us, really - want to upgrade each and every position.

I'm looking as well, but IMO, I don't think it's time for KW yet.

Rey
08-02-2012, 09:46 PM
Jacoby was actually a good blocker too.

Actually I can actually recall a few times where jacoby was visibly affecting a play with his downfield blocking.

That wasn't enough to keep him around though.

ArlingtonTexan
08-02-2012, 09:53 PM
Last year kubiak basically admitted that kw was not a number 2 receiver when he said that if you combined Walter and jacoby you'd have a really good number two....or something like that.

Kw needs to step up his receiving game or look to be replaced. It's really as simple as that.

Honestly, I don't remember this quote, but it is the most accurate analysis that I have read in this thread. those guys were 2A/2B for a couple of years for a reason.

76Texan
08-02-2012, 09:57 PM
Jacoby was actually a good blocker too.

Actually I can actually recall a few times where jacoby was visibly affecting a play with his downfield blocking.

That wasn't enough to keep him around though.

Jacoby's problems were his hands (which I had mentioned from the very first TC when I first saw him) and his lack of concentration (which is well-known over the years).

JB
08-02-2012, 10:14 PM
Last year kubiak basically admitted that kw was not a number 2 receiver when he said that if you combined Walter and jacoby you'd have a really good number two....or something like that.

Kw needs to step up his receiving game or look to be replaced. It's really as simple as that.

Kw just lacks the speed necessary to stretch the field, no problem with hands or ability to run the routes or make the blocks.

leebigeztx
08-02-2012, 11:10 PM
Examples please...?
And I mean guys we had a shot to get...

I mean would you rather have drafted a KW replacement unit with one of our 1sts or keep who we drafted -- Mercilus, or Watt, or Cushing (yes, I purposely omitted K.Jackson)...

...or would you rather have to pay through the nose to sign some "name" vet. And I can't think of anyone we can afford or who wouldn't have put us much deeper in salary cap hell...

I guess my bottom line question is... who would you erase from the roster to get the KW replacement unit? And who would that guy be?


A motivated randy moss would make this offense impossible to defend jordy nelson was a 2nd rd pick.

steelbtexan
08-02-2012, 11:49 PM
Well, a lot of us in the mock draft area was looking to find a good receiver in the draft to possibly groom as a replacement for AJ eventually.

We discusses the possibilty of another veteran WR as well.

Having an immediate-producing veteran that fits this system would cost money that I don't think we have (I'm not a cap expert, but there are guys on here who are really good).

There a good receivers out there that won't want to "really" block hard for the RBs, I can guarantee that.

Lots of nuances to cover.

It's not the simple matter about a guy who can make some plays.
It's not Madden where you can plug in any guy you like and can be sure that it will work.

Again, I understand that you - just like any of us, really - want to upgrade each and every position.

I'm looking as well, but IMO, I don't think it's time for KW yet.

Mostly agree with this post.

When do you think would be a good time to replace Walter as WR2?

Thorn
08-03-2012, 12:03 AM
Mostly agree with this post.

When do you think would be a good time to replace Walter as WR2?

As soon as someone can beat him out of that position. LOL. In all seriousness, any upgrade is a good upgrade. I'm really hoping that a few of these rookies and inexperienced WRs step up this year, we are short as hell in that position. I will say this, if Walter is still our #2 guy in 2013 we should really begin to worry. Because that would mean we just aren't picking or coaching the WRs right. Walter is good, but he is replaceable. He ain't no AJ.

Texn4life
08-03-2012, 12:03 AM
Kw just lacks the speed necessary to stretch the field, no problem with hands or ability to run the routes or make the blocks.

Its not just about having speed to stretch the field to me. Walter has struggled against man coverage the last couple of years. In zone he still is good because he knows this offense so well and knows where to find the open seams. He just lacks the quickness and acceleration to beat good corners running any route against man. I think thats why you'll actually see him playing inside more this year. Ideally you'd want Martin playing in the role, but we move our receivers around so much I don't even think it matters. All of the receivers including Andre will see snaps out of the slot at some point.

Just to put it out there, I really do like Walter and I'm glad he's on the team. Like I said earlier in this thread he does some really good things for our team. I think what everyone wants is a legit threat opposite Andre to help pull some of the double teams away from him. I've wondered for years how much better the offense could be with another downfield threat on the team. Jacoby was supposed to be that guy and it didn't work out. Thats not Walter's fault. I believe the Texans see Posey filling that role next year and down the line with Martin being our Stokley in the slot. Jean to me can fill Walter's shoes next year, but he'll have to get consistent making tough catches. That is one thing KW excels at.

Corrosion
08-03-2012, 01:42 AM
Walter was picked up as a possession receiver, and I don't think they ever intended for him to be a no. 1 receiver. He's a compliment to AJ, not a replacement.

Compare the completion percentage of catchable balls thrown to each individual reciever in the league - KW will be at or near the top of that statistic.

eriadoc
08-03-2012, 10:55 AM
Kevin Walter is not "#2" on the depth chart. That's not the way it works on this team, for better or worse. If AJ goes down, the team doesn't look to KW to step into AJ's role. THAT is what a #2 should be in most people's minds. But that isn't the way it works on the Texans. KW has his role as a starter across from AJ. If AJ goes down, the team tries to look to someone else to fill AJ's spot and they don't change Walter's role much at all. When AJ went down last year, they barely targeted KW. They mostly kept trying to feed JJ.

Like it or not, the coaching staff here does not share your opinion of what KW's job is or should be. Get over it.

The Pencil Neck
08-03-2012, 11:12 AM
Kevin Walter is not "#2" on the depth chart. That's not the way it works on this team, for better or worse. If AJ goes down, the team doesn't look to KW to step into AJ's role. THAT is what a #2 should be in most people's minds. But that isn't the way it works on the Texans. KW has his role as a starter across from AJ. If AJ goes down, the team tries to look to someone else to fill AJ's spot and they don't change Walter's role much at all. When AJ went down last year, they barely targeted KW. They mostly kept trying to feed JJ.

Like it or not, the coaching staff here does not share your opinion of what KW's job is or should be. Get over it.

That's what I was saying. KW has his role and he fills his niche doing what he needs to do. AJ has his role. When AJ goes down, KW doesn't move up and start doing AJ's job. He's not suited to that function.

In this offense, the different receiver slots have different requirements and skill-sets. Having KW replace AJ would be like having Caldwell replace Duane Brown -- you could probably do it in a pinch but it's not preferable and the results are not going to be good. But the reverse is also true, you don't want AJ doing KW's job.

Rey
08-03-2012, 12:31 PM
I disagree with all of this kw niche stuff.

Kw has remained a starter because they haven't gotten anyone better.

When kubiak first got here he went out and got Eric moulds to be the #2 wr. Ther is no blocking wr role on this team. That's pure fan myth. Again, the reason kw is still a starter is because they simply have not had anyone to challenge him for the spot. They have made due with the best they had to offer.

If these rookies step up I would not be shocked if kw is not on the team next year.

If a receiver emerges as a real threat in the passing game on a consistent basis, expect to see kw's snaps dwindled.

infantrycak
08-03-2012, 12:39 PM
Ther is no blocking wr role on this team. That's pure fan myth.

Well you are dispelling a myth not asserted by anyone. Nobody says there is a blocking wr role. What is stated is Kubiak prefers wrs who can block (and has directly stated such on more than one occasion), plans on good blocking from his wrs and Walter is excellent at blocking. It has been noted AJ and Walter may be the best tandem of wrs at blocking in the league - certainly near the top. Nobody means such an observation to mean AJ is in a blocking wr role.

Corrosion
08-03-2012, 12:40 PM
I disagree with all of this kw niche stuff.

Kw has remained a starter because they haven't gotten anyone better.

When kubiak first got here he went out and got Eric moulds to be the #2 wr. Ther is no blocking wr role on this team. That's pure fan myth. Again, the reason kw is still a starter is because they simply have not had anyone to challenge him for the spot. They have made due with the best they had to offer.

If these rookies step up I would not be shocked if kw is not on the team next year.

If a receiver emerges as a real threat in the passing game on a consistent basis, expect to see kw's snaps dwindled.

I agree with the bold ..... but as was stated earlier in the thread , for someone to challenge him for his starting spot , thats gonna be a pretty good player.

The Pencil Neck
08-03-2012, 12:52 PM
I disagree with all of this kw niche stuff.

Kw has remained a starter because they haven't gotten anyone better.

When kubiak first got here he went out and got Eric moulds to be the #2 wr. Ther is no blocking wr role on this team. That's pure fan myth. Again, the reason kw is still a starter is because they simply have not had anyone to challenge him for the spot. They have made due with the best they had to offer.

If these rookies step up I would not be shocked if kw is not on the team next year.

If a receiver emerges as a real threat in the passing game on a consistent basis, expect to see kw's snaps dwindled.

There's not a lot you've said that I necessarily disagree with.

If one of these rookies steps up and does a better job than KW, then KW will get less playing time. If several of these young receivers step up and play better than KW, then KW will not be on the team for very much longer.

But being a good blocker is one of the things that goes into the equation to determine if someone is as good or better than KW. If a WR can't block, they won't be on this team for very long and they definitely won't be unseating KW. I don't care what sort of deep threat they are.

Right now, no one does KWs job better than he does. And Rick Smith's job is to find several people who do.

Rey
08-03-2012, 01:08 PM
There's not a lot you've said that I necessarily disagree with.

If one of these rookies steps up and does a better job than KW, then KW will get less playing time. If several of these young receivers step up and play better than KW, then KW will not be on the team for very much longer.

But being a good blocker is one of the things that goes into the equation to determine if someone is as good or better than KW. If a WR can't block, they won't be on this team for very long and they definitely won't be unseating KW. I don't care what sort of deep threat they are.

Right now, no one does KWs job better than he does. And Rick Smith's job is to find several people who do.

This is where we are going to disagree.


The texans need more receivers that are going to help further open the passing game. Doesn't matter if it's deep, short slants, red zone threats....whatever.

Minoan made a comment today about Martin and how be has the potential to be a game breaker by taking short catches for long gains.

I just disagree that blocking is going to be the determining factor. It's important of course, but as a wr being able to make plays in the passing game is more important.

Jmo.

And I said earlier that I actually think kw has receiving skills, but he's going to have to tap more into his receiving self if he wants to be a starter here for a few more years because him being a good blocker is not going to keep him his job.

Vinny
08-03-2012, 01:13 PM
quick...

who was the WR2 for Kubiak in his Bronco SB run?

For you youngsters...Rod Smith was the go-to guy (wr1). Shannon Sharpe was his Owen Daniels middle of the field target and Kevin Walter, er...I mean Easy Ed McCaffrey was his WR2.

Same kind of offense, same kind of WR2...big lanky guy who could block and run persistent routes.

http://www.freewebs.com/joeyspage2/mccaffrey.jpg
Ed McCaffrey

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/930/723/107564679_display_image.jpg?1305213062

eriadoc
08-03-2012, 01:17 PM
quick...

who was the WR2 for Kubiak in his Bronco SB run?

For you youngsters...Rod Smith was the go-to guy (wr1). Shannon Sharpe was his Owen Daniels middle of the field target and Kevin Walter, er...I mean Easy Ed McCaffrey was his WR2.

Same kind of offense, same kind of WR2...big lanky guy who could block and run persistent routes.

Yep. People can dismiss the fact that KW has a different role all they want, but KW is on this team as a starter doing what he does on purpose. Kubiak pretty well went out and got KW to do exactly what he's been doing.

beerlover
08-03-2012, 01:20 PM
Walter doesn't take near the hits and collisions that Andre has had to absorb over the years. Not really a fair comparison.

Walter absorbs his fair share of contact, he does a lot of dirty work & willing to go over the middle. Point being he has been extremely durable. If Andre was as durable his numbers would be off the chart. That is all I meant.

Goldensilence
08-03-2012, 01:21 PM
Loved Ed McCaffery, (i mean how can you not love a guy who cut off the back of his shoes because he felt like tighter shoes would help him run faster!) while there are some comparisons with KW, Ed did something that KW just doesn't seem to be able to do anymore, get separation outside.

I think the biggest problem is they have him outside, I really think he'd be killer where he belongs, which is as a slot WR.

badboy
08-03-2012, 01:27 PM
Yates to Walter. TD!!! = Texans playoff birth. :hurrah:

Walter is big, strong and tough. A perfect slot receiver. I'm not sure who the folks are that criticize him are, but maybe they should understand what a slot receiver does.

The only thing the Texans need is a receiver in a 3 receiver set that can be a deep threat opposite of Andre and G*d forbid if Andre goes down, become the #1.I do not think the arguement is if Walter can play slot but if he is #2 WR. IMO, the #2 should be able to move up to #1 if needed even if the production does not match. Everytime AJ has gone out, I do not remember Walter ever taking his place.

Vinny
08-03-2012, 01:30 PM
Loved Ed McCaffery, (i mean how can you not love a guy who cut off the back of his shoes because he felt like tighter shoes would help him run faster!) while there are some comparisons with KW, Ed did something that KW just doesn't seem to be able to do anymore, get separation outside.

I think the biggest problem is they have him outside, I really think he'd be killer where he belongs, which is as a slot WR.

Ed had more long speed but I don't think he was any quicker than Walter. Personally I think that one of the most important traits for a slot wr is change of direction...a waterbug type quality. You may as well run a two TE offense or with a Hback if you want bigger guys inside. They would do a better job on the edge than a guy like Walter. Walter is a good blocker...for a wr.

badboy
08-03-2012, 01:41 PM
Kevin Walter is not "#2" on the depth chart. That's not the way it works on this team, for better or worse. If AJ goes down, the team doesn't look to KW to step into AJ's role. THAT is what a #2 should be in most people's minds. But that isn't the way it works on the Texans. KW has his role as a starter across from AJ. If AJ goes down, the team tries to look to someone else to fill AJ's spot and they don't change Walter's role much at all. When AJ went down last year, they barely targeted KW. They mostly kept trying to feed JJ.

Like it or not, the coaching staff here does not share your opinion of what KW's job is or should be. Get over it.If this is true, why does every position have a backup except for AJ?

Vinny
08-03-2012, 01:42 PM
If this is true, why does every position have a backup except for AJ?not true. lots of "swing" players on this team backing up multiple positions.

badboy
08-03-2012, 01:47 PM
not true. lots of "swing" players on this team backing up multiple positions.Not sure how your statement negates my point? I did not say one playing cannot back up more than one position. IMO, we do not have a backup for WR1 of any significance.

Rey
08-03-2012, 01:49 PM
quick...

who was the WR2 for Kubiak in his Bronco SB run?

For you youngsters...Rod Smith was the go-to guy (wr1). Shannon Sharpe was his Owen Daniels middle of the field target and Kevin Walter, er...I mean Easy Ed McCaffrey was his WR2.

Same kind of offense, same kind of WR2...big lanky guy who could block and run persistent routes.

http://www.freewebs.com/joeyspage2/mccaffrey.jpg
Ed McCaffrey

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/930/723/107564679_display_image.jpg?1305213062

He was a better receiver than kw.

The first superbowl year he only had about 600 yards, but he had 8 td's. Also Shannon sharpe had over 1,000 yards receiving. Od has never had that many yards although he "was on pace" for that one year until he got hurt.

The next year and the years after Ed had over 1000 yards receiving and scored 10, 7 and 9 touchdowns. He even had one year in there where he had 1300 yards receiving. Even in his down years yardage wise, he still put up good td numbers.

He was a fully capable receiving threat. If rod goes down there is no bringing someone of the bench to be your pass catching wr. Mccafrey was that guy.

Mccafrey was a better wr than kw and it's not really close at this point.

If Walter had mccafreys ability I don't think were having this conversation right now.

Rey
08-03-2012, 01:54 PM
If this is true, why does every position have a backup except for AJ?

More important, if blocking wr is such a vital role why is kw the only one we've ever had? Where is kw's back up?

And Walter didn't become a blocking wr until he's numbers fell of some.

I think the guy can have a big year this year, but he's going to have to start getting open more.

eriadoc
08-03-2012, 01:58 PM
If this is true, why does every position have a backup except for AJ?

In 2007, Andre Davis had 33 catches for 583 yards, a 17.7 YPC clip. AJ missed 7 games. KW started 15 games. When AJ went down, they didn't move KW to AD's spot. They put Davis, who rarely saw the field most of the rest of his Texans career, into that spot. JJ has been AJ's backup for the past few seasons. This year, they'll come up with someone else.

Rey
08-03-2012, 02:03 PM
Yep. People can dismiss the fact that KW has a different role all they want, but KW is on this team as a starter doing what he does on purpose. Kubiak pretty well went out and got KW to do exactly what he's been doing.

No he didn't.

Kevin walter became the starter after Eric moulds flamed out.

His first two years as a starter he had around 800 yards receiving. That's a good healthy number that he should strive for on a consistent basis.

I seriously doubt kubiak decided to scale that back and make him more of a blocker than a pass catcher.

More than likely he hasn't been able to achieve that level of success that he initially had and that's why he was asked to take a pay cut. That's also why his blocking skills are overly emphasized.... because well, we have to have some kind of justification as to why he is still getting so many snaps.

The Pencil Neck
08-03-2012, 02:17 PM
More important, if blocking wr is such a vital role why is kw the only one we've ever had? Where is kw's back up?

And Walter didn't become a blocking wr until he's numbers fell of some.

I think the guy can have a big year this year, but he's going to have to start getting open more.

For years, KW's backup was David Anderson. Last year, I think it might have been Bryant Johnson.

KWs job from the beginning was being able to block.

BUT... Blocking isn't just KW's job. It's AJ's job. It was JJ's job. It was DA's job. And it's going to be the job of any WR that makes this team. That is a requirement for a WR in a Kubiak offense.

Double Barrel
08-03-2012, 03:48 PM
If you want to call it hating than fine, I'm hating, but that sounds lazy. That word itself really needs to be abolished, because people misuse it to frequently. Someone criticizes a player they like, and they just come back saying "you're hating". I find that to be lazy.

I'm not a big fan of the word "coddling". It's an underhanded insult to the player and coaching staff to make such a statement. Saying that your hating on the guy is a direct result of your statement: "Enough with the BS and the coddling of Walter."

Where is PROOF that this coaching staff is coddling Walter? Coddling is defined as "Treat in an indulgent or overprotective way". I'm not seeing it, so such baseless insinuations just sounds like hate to me. I'm not lazy in making that statement. You are being lazy by not proving or supporting your coddling statement.

ArlingtonTexan
08-03-2012, 03:58 PM
For years, KW's backup was David Anderson. Last year, I think it might have been Bryant Johnson.

KWs job from the beginning was being able to block.

BUT... Blocking isn't just KW's job. It's AJ's job. It was JJ's job. It was DA's job. And it's going to be the job of any WR that makes this team. That is a requirement for a WR in a Kubiak offense.

The problem I have with the Kevin Walter is good at the little things and a very good blocker is not that's unimportant, but some posters act like that should supercede his primary job, getting open and catching the ball. He is still a WR, an being average at best(at doing classic WR stuff) in the overall scheme of things is not good enough.

BCRich
08-03-2012, 04:30 PM
Where is PROOF that this coaching staff is coddling Walter? Coddling is defined as "Treat in an indulgent or overprotective way". I'm not seeing it, so such baseless insinuations just sounds like hate to me. I'm not lazy in making that statement. You are being lazy by not proving or supporting your coddling statement.

I don't think he's accusing the coaches of coddling Walter, I think he's talking about the fans. KW has not been a good #2 for us, his performance has been on par with JJones who was insulted & ridiculed for producing the same results..... I know he also took a lot because of his bumbling punt receptions as well, but he's gotten plenty of slack for not stepping it up & replacing Andre Johnson on the field.

Now what eriadoc said is true, as far as the position goes. Andre is the X & KDub is the Z (or something like that) & that doesn't change when Andre is out. Jacoby becomes the X & KDub remains the Z

Still, when Andre is not in the game, we should be looking at Walter to have hundred yard games & a couple of TDs, not Jacoby.

Bulls on Parade
08-03-2012, 04:42 PM
Ed McCaffrey was a beast. I watched him play closely and the guy was the total package. Rod Smith often joked that if he were black he'd be one of the highest-paid wideouts in the league. As much as I like Kevin Walter, he isn't anywhere close to Ed McCaffrey's level. That being said I admire Walter for what he brings to the table.

ObsiWan
08-03-2012, 04:53 PM
I don't think anyone NEEDS to come out and say it. When your boss asks you to take a pay cut...what's the underlying implication?
.


That I'm a valued employee but finances are down and drastic cost-cutting measures are in order.

If he/she thought I sucked or could be readily replaced, I'd simply be told to hit the road.

BCRich
08-03-2012, 04:57 PM
Ed McCaffrey was a beast. I watched him play closely and the guy was the total package. Rod Smith often joked that if he were black he'd be one of the highest-paid wideouts in the league. As much as I like Kevin Walter, he isn't anywhere close to Ed McCaffrey's level. That being said I admire Walter for what he brings to the table.

Right, KDub is more like Ricky Proehl, or Keith Poole. Tough as nails, no non-sense, clutch. But not a 1 or a 2.

Double Barrel
08-03-2012, 05:10 PM
I don't think he's accusing the coaches of coddling Walter, I think he's talking about the fans. KW has not been a good #2 for us, his performance has been on par with JJones who was insulted & ridiculed for producing the same results..... I know he also took a lot because of his bumbling punt receptions as well, but he's gotten plenty of slack for not stepping it up & replacing Andre Johnson on the field.

Now what eriadoc said is true, as far as the position goes. Andre is the X & KDub is the Z (or something like that) & that doesn't change when Andre is out. Jacoby becomes the X & KDub remains the Z

Still, when Andre is not in the game, we should be looking at Walter to have hundred yard games & a couple of TDs, not Jacoby.

I don't see fans coddling him, either. Maybe I'm conditioned by the treatment that David Carr received for so many years when fans were truly overprotective of him in spite of blatant evidence proving otherwise.

I think most fans would like to see an improvement at the no. 2 spot, but we also realize this team has had many needs and the staff has chosen not to address it, yet.

Besides, Walter was NEVER A.J.'s replacement. I do not understand the confusion about numbers when our offensive system is what it is and has not changed. Just because he's no. 2 on the depth chart does not automatically mean it's like a shark's mouth, where a tooth goes missing and there's a no. 2 that takes it's place. Walter is fulfilling a specific role in Kubiak's offense, like Vinny pointed out, and he has never been considered to be 1b except for those that do not like him and always bring it up.

This is why I stopped talking about Walter a long time ago and just let him do his thing. There is a lack of objectivity about some players by some fans, and Walter is one of those kinds of players.

Texecutioner
08-03-2012, 05:20 PM
Mccafrey was a better wr than kw and it's not really close at this point.

If Walter had mccafreys ability I don't think were having this conversation right now.

And that is just it. KW isn't as good as Mccaffrey was. Walter has gradually gotten worse on this team over the years as well. When the only real attributes that fans can bring up for your #2 WR are blocking and a great attitude, than you know there is a problem with that scenario.

ObsiWan
08-03-2012, 06:25 PM
And that is just it. KW isn't as good as Mccaffrey was. Walter has gradually gotten worse on this team over the years as well. When the only real attributes that fans can bring up for your #2 WR are blocking and a great attitude, than you know there is a problem with that scenario.

Or maybe this team/offense (being run-first and all :D ) values those attributes more than being a "diva" who makes the occasional highlight reel catch.

Hey, if he sucks as much as you allude, then one of these younger, faster "kids" should be able to take his spot don't you think? There's certainly enough of them.

Goldensilence
08-04-2012, 03:09 AM
That I'm a valued employee but finances are down and drastic cost-cutting measures are in order.

If he/she thought I sucked or could be readily replaced, I'd simply be told to hit the road.

What if its not a matter of you totally sucking... just not producing when you should. When it comes down to it, you just don't close things out.

Financially, the paycut was a good move for both sides, I think its unlikely he gets #2 money for #3 production.

Texecutioner
08-04-2012, 11:12 AM
Or maybe this team/offense (being run-first and all :D ) values those attributes more than being a "diva" who makes the occasional highlight reel catch.

Not really fair comparison if you're going to act like the only other option would be some diva who can only make highlight reels. Your entire attitude comes off like it's Walter or doom and gloom. I'm sure there are receivers out there that can beat out 474 yards and 3 TD's.

Hey, if he sucks as much as you allude, then one of these younger, faster "kids" should be able to take his spot don't you think? There's certainly enough of them.

I don't recall saying that Walter sucked. Whether these young guys can be better than Walter or not isn't what this is about really. He is a great guy and a hard worker, but he is our second option at WR, and at this point, he is easily replaceable for an upgrade. The Texans should have their ears wide open for any WR's that hit the trading block throughout the season.

76Texan
08-07-2012, 06:32 PM
Mostly agree with this post.

When do you think would be a good time to replace Walter as WR2?

Been rewatching some games (4 so far) concentrating on Walter.
I'll let you know my take after a few more games.

Initial "re-observations":

- A receiver can be open but if the QB doesn't look his way, it never has the chance to show up on the stat sheet. And Walter was open a fair amount of time considering the number of times he actually runs a route.

- It's not gonna be easy to find a receiver in the NFL today that is used to block for both the running game and the passing game as much.

- Walter is a mid 4.4 guy; he's not a burner, but he has decent speed (on top of his ability to run routes) to keep the defense honest (you leave him in single coverage often enough and he will have better than his percentage.) He did run a good number of deep routes to free AJ (or somebody else) underneath.

...

Now, I'm going to ramble a little bit here, kind of thinking aloud as I go through some numbers.

The number of catches Walter had last year (39) comprises some 8.35% of the number of pass attempts by the Texans QBs (467).
I think he had 2 or 3 "so-called" drops this year (at least one I don't think is a drop, but nervermind that.)
3 drops plus 39 catches; that's 42 passes "catchable passes" thrown his way.
So he was targeted about 9% of the time.

In 2010, he caught 51; we attempted 574.
In 2009, he caught 53; we attempted 592.

Basically, we know that Walter is one of the most sure-handed receiver in the league (since he became a Texan).
Over the past 3 seasons, Walter ranked #3 in this category (3.38%).

Roughly, the number of catchable passes thrown his way remains about 9% of the number of pass attempts; ie. the Texans QBs are targeting him roughly the same number of times in the last 3 years.

And AJ played all 16 games on 09.

It looks like Walter's role never changed whether AJ was healthy or not, which is what I always suspect.

...

BTW, I'm learning to get use to this new Season Plus Rewind package ($70) from NFL.com

They give us two views:

1. We can see all 22 players on the field for the most part (the important parts)

2. One end zone view that is constant through the game (ie. this camera is in one particular end zone; you don't see the camera that was place in the other end zone).
(The regular broadcast do offer us with these views on a few "selected" plays in a certain game.)

That's it; you don't have the overhead camera or anything else.

And there's no audio.

You have to combine this with the regular broadcast (and perhaps best, with the gamebook in hand on a different computer.)
I watch games with 2 computers (and or with a TV) often so it's not too hard for me to adjust.
They also have a condensed version of the game (nothing but the actual plays).
I have also watched games in this fashion, so it's also easy for me to toggle between versions.

I can also complement this with a replay version (which I occasionally get) in which there's actual commentary from the HCs (on a few particular plays).

....

You need to have a pretty good internet connection and computer set-up to really enjoy this.

I hook up one computer with my 55" TV via an HDMI cable (the quality is still not as good as what you normally see with Hi-Def - at least for me.)

I have my laptop in which I store the regular broadcast in Hi-Def and the game book (once in a blue moon, I can have 3 computers working at the same time, but I don't need to - not anymore.)

Personally, I think they're making it hard for a normal fan to learn the game.
Maybe they don't want it to be too transparent.
Maybe they have a reason.

But it's all good.
They offer me a couple of better views (consistently) to confirm the things I need to be confirmed.

I wouldn't reccommend it for the casual fans, but for those who love to study the game hard, any extra view is a definite plus... and I am in heaven, LOL!

Corrosion
08-07-2012, 07:29 PM
Mostly agree with this post.

When do you think would be a good time to replace Walter as WR2?

When they aquire someone who can take his job ....



Part of the issue here isnt Walter but what he is asked to do in this scheme that often doesnt show up on the stat sheet .... all the clearing routes he runs that get other guy's open. Gary's route combinations are downright brilliant and Walter plays a significant role in the execution on the field that lead to Schaub throwing for 4500+ in back to back seasons and on pace to repeat that success last season until the injury.

Much of this is difficult to see unless you have access to the view of the game teams have in video. We as fans see bits and pieces of plays , they have the benifit of multiple views and top down video.