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Stemp
07-26-2012, 02:58 PM
If Penn State had not accepted the package of NCAA sanctions announced Monday, the Nittany Lions faced a historic death penalty of four years, university president Rodney Erickson told "Outside the Lines" on Wednesday afternoon.

In a separate interview, NCAA president Mark Emmert confirmed that a core group of NCAA school presidents had agreed early last week that an appropriate punishment was no Penn State football for four years.

Emmert told Erickson in a phone conversation on July 17 that a majority of the NCAA's leadership wanted to levy the four-year penalty because of Penn State's leaders' roles in covering up the child sexual abuse of former assistant coach Jerry Sandusky.

"Well, that's a pretty tough number to swallow," Erickson said he recalled thinking when told of the four-year possibility by Emmert. "It's unprecedented. It's a blow to the gut; there's no doubt about that ... I couldn't agree to that at all."

Almost immediately after that conversation, intensive discussions between Penn State and the NCAA began in earnest, Erickson said. Penn State lobbied for the NCAA to take the death penalty off the table, and the NCAA described a series of other sanctions, both "punitive and corrective" in nature.

The discussions were so secretive that most members of Penn State's embattled Board of Trustees had no idea they were happening, several trustees said.

Indeed, the trustees had thought Erickson was officially responding to a Nov. 17 letter of questions from the NCAA. In the interview on Wednesday, Erickson said the letter was set aside last week as the discussions between Penn State and the NCAA intensified.

Erickson said if Penn State did not agree to the sanctions, a formal investigation would have begun and the university could have faced a multiyear death penalty, as well as "other sanctions," including a financial penalty far greater than $60 million.

"There were figures that were thrown around that were quite large," he said.

...


http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8199905/penn-state-nittany-lions-rodney-erickson-said-school-faced-4-year-death-penalty

Blake
07-26-2012, 03:42 PM
Like I said earlier, Penn State got off light.

gtexan02
07-26-2012, 04:25 PM
I prefer the punishments they got. It hurts the student athletes less than it does the school itself.

A 4 year death penalty would have been tragic for many of those athletes, and they had nothing to do with the problem. At SMU, the athletes were at fault as well

Wolf6151
07-26-2012, 04:26 PM
I agree with Blake they got off very light. ESPN keeps ranting that Penn St. was punished harshly, no they weren't. 60 mil. in fines is nothing to a school that size, they raised 200 mil. last year from alumni alone during the scandal. 10 scholarships a year out of 100+ players on the team, 4 yr. ban from bowl games while their still on t.v. every weekend, and vacating all the wins from 1998 to 2012 does nothing to anyone. If you commit a 14 yr. crime shouldn't you get more than a 4 yr. penalty. Shouldn't the penalty exceed the crime so as to be a deterrent to everyone.

Wolf6151
07-26-2012, 04:30 PM
I prefer the punishments they got. It hurts the student athletes less than it does the school itself.

A 4 year death penalty would have been tragic for many of those athletes, and they had nothing to do with the problem. At SMU, the athletes were at fault as well

I don't agree that the penalty hurts the athletes in any way, they are free to transfer to any other school without penalties. If Penn St. had been given the death penalty, just because they can't play their doesn't mean they can't play. If I go to a bar and they refuse me entry, it doesn't mean I can't party that night, I'm free to go somewhere else.

2012Champs
07-26-2012, 04:34 PM
I agree with Blake they got off very light. ESPN keeps ranting that Penn St. was punished harshly, no they weren't. 60 mil. in fines is nothing to a school that size, they raised 200 mil. last year from alumni alone during the scandal. 10 scholarships a year out of 100+ players on the team, 4 yr. ban from bowl games while their still on t.v. every weekend, and vacating all the wins from 1998 to 2012 does nothing to anyone. If you commit a 14 yr. crime shouldn't you get more than a 4 yr. penalty. Shouldn't the penalty exceed the crime so as to be a deterrent to everyone.



Just to explan the scholorship allocation you can only add 25 new scholorships a year to your team so long as the total roster of scholorships doesnt exceed 85. So the 100+ number doesnt apply and it certainly has an pretty big impact overall.


Also of note the NCAA's actions arent ment to somehow compensate for 14 years worth of crimes. The criminal court is to take care of that the best it can but no one can fairly compensate for the crimes that occured

2012Champs
07-26-2012, 04:36 PM
I don't agree that the penalty hurts the athletes in any way, they are free to transfer to any other school without penalties. If Penn St. had been given the death penalty, just because they can't play their doesn't mean they can't play. If I go to a bar and they refuse me entry, it doesn't mean I can't party that night, I'm free to go somewhere else.



Would you say that SMU players had an active role in the issues that SMU was punished for?


Would you say that Penn St players had an active role in the issues Penn St has been punished for?

Vinny
07-26-2012, 05:02 PM
Erickson said if Penn State did not agree to the sanctions, a formal investigation would have begun and the university could have faced a multiyear death penalty, as well as "other sanctions," including a financial penalty far greater than $60 million.
this little snippet bothers me the most. So if they didn't agree to sanctions, the NCAA says they will really investigate and expose PSU fully, as opposed to not fully disclosing and exposing everyone and everything. If I had a kid that was hurt I'd want everything on the table...not some negotiated settlement between power brokers.

jaayteetx
07-26-2012, 05:43 PM
I personally don't think the university should face any sanctions at all, those in the know should be sent to prison, period. Its a criminal matter.

gwallaia
07-26-2012, 06:02 PM
A 4 year death penalty would have been catastrophic to the economy to that region. Millions of people would have been penalized because of the actions of a few people.

steelbtexan
07-26-2012, 09:03 PM
I prefer the punishments they got. It hurts the student athletes less than it does the school itself.

A 4 year death penalty would have been tragic for many of those athletes, and they had nothing to do with the problem. At SMU, the athletes were at fault as well

Excuse me,

When a football program aids and abets a child predator for 14 yrs, then said progam should face the most harsh sactions in NCAA history. That didn't happen to Penn St.

Remeber innocent childrens lives have been ruined and Penn St administration allow childrens lives to be destroyed for 14 yrs.

May they all get what's coming to them in the end.

2012Champs
07-26-2012, 10:07 PM
Excuse me,

When a football program aids and abets a child predator for 14 yrs, then said progam should face the most harsh sactions in NCAA history. That didn't happen to Penn St.

Remeber innocent childrens lives have been ruined and Penn St administration allow childrens lives to be destroyed for 14 yrs.

May they all get what's coming to them in the end.


I'm not sure it was the football program that allowed this to go on but rather just 4 people involved. Those 4 people are no longer with the school, one dead, one in jail and two with charges on the way. The NCAA is not in the position to compensate those kids lives for 14 years of problem. I have no problem with the punishment but people acting like everything should be destroyed seem a little out of touch with reality

steelbtexan
07-26-2012, 10:57 PM
I'm not sure it was the football program that allowed this to go on but rather just 4 people involved. Those 4 people are no longer with the school, one dead, one in jail and two with charges on the way. The NCAA is not in the position to compensate those kids lives for 14 years of problem. I have no problem with the punishment but people acting like everything should be destroyed seem a little out of touch with reality

Paterno was the athletic dept.

I'm sorry if you think the head of the athletic dept. (Paterno) covering up for a child molestor for 14 yrs is being unrealitic/doesn't warranty the worst punishment in NCAA history. We will have to agree to disagree.

Do you ever wonder how many young boys lives were destroyed/could've been saved from a life of torment if Joe Pa had done the right thing and turned Sandusky in to the cops?

For the whole Penn St higherarchy to turn their backs on the victims makes me ill and the university deserved the worst punisment possible. Hell they aren't even going to be kicked off TV.

jaayteetx
07-26-2012, 11:41 PM
Paterno was the athletic dept.

I'm sorry if you think the head of the athletic dept. (Paterno) covering up for a child molestor for 14 yrs is being unrealitic/doesn't warranty the worst punishment in NCAA history. We will have to agree to disagree.

Do you ever wonder how many young boys lives were destroyed/could've been saved from a life of torment if Joe Pa had done the right thing and turned Sandusky in to the cops?

For the whole Penn St higherarchy to turn their backs on the victims makes me ill and the university deserved the worst punisment possible. Hell they aren't even going to be kicked off TV.

Ok, but how does giving Penn St the death penalty penalize those that commited these acts? Your only punishing those who had nothing to do with it, those that are totally innocent in this matter.

steelbtexan
07-26-2012, 11:59 PM
Ok, but how does giving Penn St the death penalty penalize those that commited these acts? Your only punishing those who had nothing to do with it, those that are totally innocent in this matter.

It sets a precedent.

And yes players will be hurt by this, but that's the price they have to pay for signing with such a vile institution. They can transfer immediately.

Stemp
07-27-2012, 12:06 AM
Ok, but how does giving Penn St the death penalty penalize those that commited these acts? Your only punishing those who had nothing to do with it, those that are totally innocent in this matter.

You are punishing the SCHOOL, for creating and fostering an environment that allowed a child molester to roam free and prey on his victims for YEARS.

Do people suggest that companies not be punished when their leaders break the law that the punishment forces the employees to suffer?

Doppelganger
07-27-2012, 12:48 AM
You are punishing the SCHOOL, for creating and fostering an environment that allowed a child molester to roam free and prey on his victims for YEARS.

Do people suggest that companies not be punished when their leaders break the law that the punishment forces the employees to suffer?

But you are ALSO punishing the innocent people who depend on Penn State football. You are punishing the vendors who sell food, drink, and souvenirs in the stadium. You are punishing the mom/pop stores, motels, stores etc who depend on the revenue brought in by fans. You are punishing the bars where people go to watch the games. You are punishing the waitstaff who work at the bar who make minimum wage and depend on the tips.

I am all for punishing PSU, but lets remember a death penalty hurts the innocent people more than the University.

Doppelganger
07-27-2012, 12:53 AM
It sets a precedent.

And yes players will be hurt by this, but that's the price they have to pay for signing with such a vile institution. They can transfer immediately.

Except the players were not aware of this when they signed up to play there. Seniors especially, can't really transfer, since games start pretty soon and it would be tough to get up to speed on a whole new package and be able to play ASAP. I think all seniors should be granted an additional year of eligibility to allow them to transfer and still be able to play. Juniors and under can and should transfer out and would not require the extra year.

Wolf6151
07-27-2012, 02:50 AM
Would you say that SMU players had an active role in the issues that SMU was punished for?


Would you say that Penn St players had an active role in the issues Penn St has been punished for?

I'm not arguing that SMU players were complicit in their scandal, they obviously were, and I'm not arguing that Penn St. players had nothing to do with the infractions committed there, the current players are obviously innocent. I'm tired of the argument that the current players are the ones being punished for something they didn't do. My point is that the players are not being punished when the football team/University are being punished. The players are free to leave with no penalties, unlike a player that would transfer under normal circumstances. They also get to keep their scholarships and stay if they choose.

As for the crimes and punishment, I'm talking about the 14 yr. coverup/crime by the University not the crimes of Sandusky. The punishment should be at least as long as the crime/coverup. If not where's the incentive not to do it again. If I steal/embezel a million dollars from my company the punishment should be more than a 200K fine.

steelbtexan
07-27-2012, 06:38 AM
Except the players were not aware of this when they signed up to play there. Seniors especially, can't really transfer, since games start pretty soon and it would be tough to get up to speed on a whole new package and be able to play ASAP. I think all seniors should be granted an additional year of eligibility to allow them to transfer and still be able to play. Juniors and under can and should transfer out and would not require the extra year.

Seems reasonable to me.

Blake
07-27-2012, 08:13 AM
Ok, but how does giving Penn St the death penalty penalize those that commited these acts? Your only punishing those who had nothing to do with it, those that are totally innocent in this matter.

I dont know about you, but I would feel even more like a bag of **** who got my institutions football program the death penalty. I doubt I would ever be welcomed back. I would probably be the most hated person on campus for the rest of my life.

Blake
07-27-2012, 08:26 AM
But you are ALSO punishing the innocent people who depend on Penn State football. You are punishing the vendors who sell food, drink, and souvenirs in the stadium. You are punishing the mom/pop stores, motels, stores etc who depend on the revenue brought in by fans. You are punishing the bars where people go to watch the games. You are punishing the waitstaff who work at the bar who make minimum wage and depend on the tips.

I would think breaking the cycle of PSU football over humanity, and showing other Colleges and football programs that they need to review their current situations (possibly saving other victims elsewhere) would be more important than worrying about people riding PSU Football coattails.

I am all for punishing PSU, but lets remember a death penalty hurts the innocent people more than the University.

Dopp, I have to disagree with this argument. The University will feel the sting of losing football revenue and TV money and can focus more on academics. Again, we cant ignore the severity of the crime because people are sucking on the tit. But we all know that football is king, and little boys being raped be damned. They are getting off light and PSU will field a team...

2012Champs
07-27-2012, 10:10 AM
Paterno was the athletic dept.

I'm sorry if you think the head of the athletic dept. (Paterno) covering up for a child molestor for 14 yrs is being unrealitic/doesn't warranty the worst punishment in NCAA history. We will have to agree to disagree.

Do you ever wonder how many young boys lives were destroyed/could've been saved from a life of torment if Joe Pa had done the right thing and turned Sandusky in to the cops?

For the whole Penn St higherarchy to turn their backs on the victims makes me ill and the university deserved the worst punisment possible. Hell they aren't even going to be kicked off TV.


Joe wasnt AD, Joe is dead, Sandusky is in jail and the other two involved are out as well. The people responsible are all gone from the school. The NCAA punishment can in no way make up for what happend to the kids or undo what was wrong.

2012Champs
07-27-2012, 10:18 AM
I dont think any amount of punishment to PSU or lack there of will prevent or create another situation where this 14 year act occured. The fact is without looking at the school, ncaa or any of that these folks broke the law and the punishment for their crimes is far greater than any punishment the NCAA could put forth. If people are not afraid of the criminal punishment they face the NCAA's death penalty isnt going to stop them either

Stemp
07-27-2012, 10:20 AM
Joe wasnt AD, Joe is dead, Sandusky is in jail and the other two involved are out as well. The people responsible are all gone from the school. The NCAA punishment can in no way make up for what happend to the kids or undo what was wrong.

It's not meant to. The punishment isn't meant to make up for anything, it's to make the school hurt in a meaningful way to teach them and other schools that may have developed a similar culture (that football and image are above all else) that they can't do that.

2012Champs
07-27-2012, 10:29 AM
It's not meant to. The punishment isn't meant to make up for anything, it's to make the school hurt in a meaningful way to teach them and other schools that may have developed a similar culture (that football and image are above all else) that they can't do that.

and to that this applies

I dont think any amount of punishment to PSU or lack there of will prevent or create another situation where this 14 year act occured. The fact is without looking at the school, ncaa or any of that these folks broke the law and the punishment for their crimes is far greater than any punishment the NCAA could put forth. If people are not afraid of the criminal punishment they face the NCAA's death penalty isnt going to stop them either

Stemp
07-27-2012, 10:49 AM
The problem wasn't a few people allowed this to happen. The problem is that the school developed a culture where the head football coach ruled all and the football program came before all else. Remember, this was going on for over a DECADE. They didn't think they would get caught because in their minds, they didn't do anything wrong. Their culture was that protecting the football program was beyond reproach and was in the best interest of the school. By slamming the football program, you hit the heart of the problem, you reduce it's influence and value to the school and send a message that hiding or not reporting crimes to protect the program is going cost your school A LOT. This was an institutional problem which is why many school presidents in the NCAA were pushing for a 4 year death penalty.

2012Champs
07-27-2012, 10:59 AM
The problem wasn't a few people allowed this to happen. The problem is that the school developed a culture where the head football coach ruled all and the football program came before all else. Remember, this was going on for over a DECADE. They didn't think they would get caught because in their minds, they didn't do anything wrong. Their culture was that protecting the football program was beyond reproach and was in the best interest of the school. By slamming the football program, you hit the heart of the problem, you reduce it's influence and value to the school and send a message that hiding or not reporting crimes to protect the program is going cost your school A LOT. This was an institutional problem which is why many school presidents in the NCAA were pushing for a 4 year death penalty.



It was four people that allowed this problem to happen four. Not an entire school, not an entire program. Again this punishment or lack there of will not prevent or promote this issue happening again. If criminal punishment isnt enough the rest of this certainly wouldnt be

Hervoyel
07-27-2012, 11:07 AM
this little snippet bothers me the most. So if they didn't agree to sanctions, the NCAA says they will really investigate and expose PSU fully, as opposed to not fully disclosing and exposing everyone and everything. If I had a kid that was hurt I'd want everything on the table...not some negotiated settlement between power brokers.

Yeah, that has a stink about it. Penn State shouldn't have been able to lobby for a damn thing. They were busted. Stone-cold busted. Caught dead to rights. The NCAA should have decided on what the penalty would be and told them that was what they were getting. This sounds very back-room deal to me.

I've waffled on this because you don't want to hurt students and players who had nothing to do with the crimes or the cover ups but now I'm thinking that the only really valid way to end this for good would have been to kill the program for some set amount of time.

Watching the reaction that the entire region and national fanbase had to what unfolded showed me that there was something wrong up there. When that many people are adamant about holding a coach and a football program up as more important than stopping a pedophile or getting genuine justice for his victims then there's a culture surrounding that university/coach/team there that needs to be erased. I'd characterize it as a sickness. The only way to do that would be something like this 4 year death penalty. Literally purge that program off the map and make them start it over again from scratch. Now you have a group of fans and a core of football players who are being allowed to continue their "more important than stopping a child molester" storied traditions. These people are circling the wagons and telling the world that they'll overcome this persecution they think they're enduring. They're going to get to spend the next few years pretending that they are somehow victims in this.

This is not going to get it done. The NCAA dropped the ball because I guess in the long run even to them on some level it's more important that you have Penn State football in the mix in some fashion.

That's pathetic.

Stemp
07-27-2012, 11:07 AM
It was four people that allowed this problem to happen four. Not an entire school, not an entire program. Again this punishment or lack there of will not prevent or promote this issue happening again. If criminal punishment isnt enough the rest of this certainly wouldnt be

It wasn't just four people, it was the ENTIRE CULTURE. Other people caught him also but they were afraid that if they reported him they would get fired. Why? Because the CULTURE of Penn State was the football came above all else.

Freeh: "There is an over-emphasis on 'The Penn State Way' as an approach to decision-making, a resistance to seeking outside perspectives, and an excessive focus on athletics that can, if not recognized, negatively impact the university's reputation as a progressive institution."

Freeh: "The Board - despite its duties of care and oversight of the University and its Officers - failed to create an environment which held the University's most senior leaders accountable to it."

2012Champs
07-27-2012, 11:22 AM
It wasn't just four people, it was the ENTIRE CULTURE. Other people caught him also but they were afraid that if they reported him they would get fired. Why? Because the CULTURE of Penn State was the football came above all else.


You know you can blame the culture at Penn St or any other employer and it simply comes down to individuals making the choice to not go to the authorities. I dont know who all these other people who caught him as you say but if they told no one that is on them and to blame any "culture" for that is overlooking the people who should carry the largest amount of blame.

Hervoyel
07-27-2012, 11:23 AM
But you are ALSO punishing the innocent people who depend on Penn State football. You are punishing the vendors who sell food, drink, and souvenirs in the stadium. You are punishing the mom/pop stores, motels, stores etc who depend on the revenue brought in by fans. You are punishing the bars where people go to watch the games. You are punishing the waitstaff who work at the bar who make minimum wage and depend on the tips.

I am all for punishing PSU, but lets remember a death penalty hurts the innocent people more than the University.

I think those people should look to Penn State if they want to know who put them in dire straights (in a scenario where Penn State had been given the death penalty). Saying "We can't apply what we think is the appropriate punishment to Penn State because it hurts the hot dog vendor's bottom line is not right.

If local businesses are hurt, if people can't make a living off of those games then Penn State is to blame, nobody else.

Texan_Bill
07-27-2012, 11:36 AM
It wasn't just four people, it was the ENTIRE CULTURE. Other people caught him also but they were afraid that if they reported him they would get fired. Why? Because the CULTURE of Penn State was the football came above all else.

Some people don't understand "Culture".

It wasn't that a handful of people knew what was going on with Sandusky. It's about how the Football program was running roughshod over the entire University and to some extents the local authorities and town.

2012Champs
07-27-2012, 11:37 AM
I think those people should look to Penn State if they want to know who put them in dire straights (in a scenario where Penn State had been given the death penalty). Saying "We can't apply what we think is the appropriate punishment to Penn State because it hurts the hot dog vendor's bottom line is not right.

If local businesses are hurt, if people can't make a living off of those games then Penn State is to blame, nobody else.


So would all of Sandusky's victims feel better if the death penalty was enforced, the University was hurt and surrounding business went under? Victim #4 released a statement through their attorney saying they wished the NCAA had consulted with them to get input from those who were the most impacted by this issue.

Dutchrudder
07-27-2012, 11:42 AM
When my phone rang just a few seconds after the NCAA sanctions were handed down Monday, I knew it was someone from Penn State calling, likely outraged that our beloved university was being punished so harshly. I've received these calls all week.

"I don't think it's fair mainly because there were no violations on the field of play. There were no violations by athletes," said one caller, decrying the raft of penalties that will, among other things, keep the university's football program out of the post-season for four years. "Only by coaches and administration, all of whom are gone and facing criminal charges. ... I just feel the NCAA is pimping off the Penn State situation," said my friend on the phone, a former football player and current college administrator. "What do you think?" he asked. He was clearly upset.

And, he is clearly wrong.

I'm sorry. I just can't join the throngs of furious Nittany Lions. My outrage is too focused on a university that failed us and, more importantly, all of the boys who were raped and abused by former coach Jerry Sandusky. He was convicted last month for sexually assaulting 10 boys over more than 10 years, while everyone, according to the Freeh report on the scandal -- coaches, administrators and Penn State's Board of Trustees, sat back and let it happen. Too afraid to ask any questions, too afraid to lose their careers, too selfish to care about anything but football and the big money it represented.

What do I think, my friend? I think the NCAA sanctions are not only fair but also could have been harsher.

Arguing that the NCAA overstepped its bounds and has no right to butt into this criminal case is ridiculous. That is the same type of legal-loophole thinking that Joe Paterno, Mike McQueary and other top officials who knew about Sandusky's behavior used when they "followed the letter of the law" and reported to their superiors that Sandusky may have done "something" to a boy in the shower that awful night in 1998. They reported this suspected rape to their bosses and then went home.

I think we got off easy.

But to hear the indignant reaction of those in the Penn State family and in the media, you would think that the NCAA was shutting down the entire university. I just don't get it. We are talking about a university -- not one man, many men and women, an entire culture -- that allowed a former coach to repeatedly rape and abuse boys for decades on university property and school trips.

We are talking about a university (not just a football program) that covered up these crimes, allowing the football program to become a safe haven for a child rapist. It is a university and the entire culture around Happy Valley that happily saw no evil, heard no evil and spoke no evil as long as the profits were rolling in and the stadium seats were filled. And now we all have to pay the penalty for allowing that culture to fester.

...




http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/27/opinion/jones-penn-state-trustees/index.html

Stemp
07-27-2012, 12:06 PM
So would all of Sandusky's victims feel better if the death penalty was enforced, the University was hurt and surrounding business went under? Victim #4 released a statement through their attorney saying they wished the NCAA had consulted with them to get input from those who were the most impacted by this issue.

Again, this wasn't handed down to make the victims "feel better" or to "make amends". It's a PUNISHMENT. You don't spank your child when they do wrong to make yourself feel better or to "make amends" you do it to teach them about consequences. Penn State is learning that the decisions made and the culture they fostered has consequences. They really are quite lucky that the NCAA was willing to negotiate and that football program wasn't shut down.

2012Champs
07-27-2012, 12:10 PM
Again, this wasn't handed down to make the victims "feel better" or to "make amends". It's a PUNISHMENT. You don't spank your child when they do wrong to make yourself feel better or to "make amends" you do it to teach them about consequences. Penn State is learning that the decisions made and the culture they fostered has consequences. They really are quite lucky that the NCAA was willing to negotiate and that football program wasn't shut down.



I also dont spank my kids when someone else does something wrong nor do I go kick over the lemonade stand on the corner to show those other kids whos boss

Hervoyel
07-27-2012, 12:18 PM
I also dont spank my kids when someone else does something wrong nor do I go kick over the lemonade stand on the corner to show those other kids whos boss


Stemp gave the very answer I would have given you. In my opinion you have a pathetic grasp of this and talking to you about it is pointless. Suffice to say we disagree and will not find anything here to agree on.

Good day.

Stemp
07-27-2012, 12:22 PM
I also dont spank my kids when someone else does something wrong nor do I go kick over the lemonade stand on the corner to show those other kids whos boss

:wadepalm:
You just don't get it and you likely never will. This goes far beyond "the four". And the players aren't being punished because they can transfer without penalty. They might not think the choice is "fair" but they certainly can choose to go to school that will allow them to plan in the post season and aviod the "punishment" you think they are being handed.

Dutchrudder
07-27-2012, 12:23 PM
It was four people that allowed this problem to happen four. Not an entire school, not an entire program. Again this punishment or lack there of will not prevent or promote this issue happening again. If criminal punishment isnt enough the rest of this certainly wouldnt be

No it wasn't actually. If you read the Freeh report, which can be found here: http://www.thefreehreportonpsu.com/REPORT_FINAL_071212.pdf
You can see how the chain of command was implemented. A few of the people who knew about these alleged incidents:

Graham Spainer President of PSU
Gary Schultz VP of Finance
Tim Curley Athletic Director
Joe Paterno Headcoach
Mike McQueary Asst Coach
Wendell Courtney - University Legal council
Penn State Police Chief Harmon did the reports for the 98 and 01 incidents, however I don't know if there were other officers involved. I haven't seen any specifically named.
Two unnamed janitors testified that they did not report the incidents they witnessed for fear of getting fired.


Yeah, that's quite a list, I doubt it stopped with those people.

GlassHalfFull
07-27-2012, 12:29 PM
The problem wasn't a few people allowed this to happen. The problem is that the school developed a culture where the head football coach ruled all and the football program came before all else. Remember, this was going on for over a DECADE. They didn't think they would get caught because in their minds, they didn't do anything wrong. Their culture was that protecting the football program was beyond reproach and was in the best interest of the school. By slamming the football program, you hit the heart of the problem, you reduce it's influence and value to the school and send a message that hiding or not reporting crimes to protect the program is going cost your school A LOT. This was an institutional problem which is why many school presidents in the NCAA were pushing for a 4 year death penalty.

It was four people that allowed this problem to happen four. Not an entire school, not an entire program. Again this punishment or lack there of will not prevent or promote this issue happening again. If criminal punishment isnt enough the rest of this certainly wouldnt be

I bolded in Stemp's post what I think is the crux of the matter. It does boil down to "lack of institutional control"

I have gone back and forth on how I feel about the penalty, but I think you have to keep this in mind.

The culture that allowed a football coach to play god is what is being dismantled. And it needs to be.

2012Champs
07-27-2012, 12:45 PM
I bolded in Stemp's post what I think is the crux of the matter. It does boil down to "lack of institutional control"

I have gone back and forth on how I feel about the penalty, but I think you have to keep this in mind.

The culture that allowed a football coach to play god is what is being dismantled. And it needs to be.



This cover up problem is not one of Penn St, its not one of a football program its a matter of greed over doing the right thing. The publics problem with this current issue is that it involved the violation of children and that in and of itself is disgusting. This simply problem with humans and greed vs doing the right thing. It exist on wall st, politics, corp america, schools everywhere. Nothing that could be done by the NCAA will prevent this from every happening again. Punish PSU however you want but it wont change what happend and it wont stop it from happening again

Stemp
07-27-2012, 12:48 PM
Punish PSU however you want but it wont change what happend and it wont stop it from happening again

Following that line of thinking, we should stop punishing anyone for any crime.
Don't put a murderer in jail because it won't changed what happened and it won't stop people from committing murder again in the future.

I'm just sayin......

GlassHalfFull
07-27-2012, 12:57 PM
This cover up problem is not one of Penn St, its not one of a football program its a matter of greed over doing the right thing. The publics problem with this current issue is that it involved the violation of children and that in and of itself is disgusting. This simply problem with humans and greed vs doing the right thing. It exist on wall st, politics, corp america, schools everywhere. Nothing that could be done by the NCAA will prevent this from every happening again. Punish PSU however you want but it wont change what happend and it wont stop it from happening again

I will have to respectfully disagree. The punishment makes a statement, and I would be surprised if other Universities aren't looking at ways of making sure this doesn't happen to their campuses. Board of Trustees are going to be looking at ways of putting in more oversight and thinking about culture.

It won't change what happened and it may not stop it from happening again, I can't say that for sure. People are greedy as you point out, and self interest keeps people from doing the right thing. But that is why this punishment must happen.

2012Champs
07-27-2012, 01:19 PM
Following that line of thinking, we should stop punishing anyone for any crime.
Don't put a murderer in jail because it won't changed what happened and it won't stop people from committing murder again in the future.

I'm just sayin......




Actually what you are saying here doenst match the PSU issue. A murderer going to jail or getting the death penalty is punish to that person for the crime they committed. In that case I am okay with the dealth penalty even though the dealth penalty is not an effective deterrent to keep people from committing murder.

2012Champs
07-27-2012, 01:24 PM
I will have to respectfully disagree. The punishment makes a statement, and I would be surprised if other Universities aren't looking at ways of making sure this doesn't happen to their campuses. Board of Trustees are going to be looking at ways of putting in more oversight and thinking about culture.

It won't change what happened and it may not stop it from happening again, I can't say that for sure. People are greedy as you point out, and self interest keeps people from doing the right thing. But that is why this punishment must happen.



We can disagree no harm there. I just think with the criminal aspect involved, the publicity of the trial and everything afterwards that in itself would be the move to make sure it didnt happen again if it is even preventable. I dont think the NCAA punishment adds or detracts from that.

gtexan02
07-31-2012, 06:27 PM
:wadepalm:
You just don't get it and you likely never will. This goes far beyond "the four". And the players aren't being punished because they can transfer without penalty. They might not think the choice is "fair" but they certainly can choose to go to school that will allow them to plan in the post season and aviod the "punishment" you think they are being handed.

To say that the player can transfer without penalty means they aren't getting punished isn't taking the context of the situation fully.

You must consider the following issues:
1. Will their credits transfer? Will they have to retake classes? Anyone who has transferred schools knows that its not easy to transfer and not take a step back academically initially

2. All their friends, networks, etc are at Penn St. A lot of those kids chose Penn St for reasons that go beyond football and leaving the school means leaving those things behind

3. Players who fit the system at Penn St now have to find another school with an opening that will allow them to fit in in the same way

4. The football season starts in exactly 1 month. Its impossible to believe that the players will be ready to play for a different school, with a different team, in a new city. They are going to have a negative impact on their professional development at the least. They have to learn an entirely new system and work their way up depth charts.


There are a lot of factors here. Giving them the death penalty would have been unduly harsh to the current students.

Stemp
07-31-2012, 06:45 PM
To say that the player can transfer without penalty means they aren't getting punished isn't taking the context of the situation fully.

You must consider the following issues:
1. Will their credits transfer? Will they have to retake classes? Anyone who has transferred schools knows that its not easy to transfer and not take a step back academically initially

2. All their friends, networks, etc are at Penn St. A lot of those kids chose Penn St for reasons that go beyond football and leaving the school means leaving those things behind

3. Players who fit the system at Penn St now have to find another school with an opening that will allow them to fit in in the same way

4. The football season starts in exactly 1 month. Its impossible to believe that the players will be ready to play for a different school, with a different team, in a new city. They are going to have a negative impact on their professional development at the least. They have to learn an entirely new system and work their way up depth charts.


There are a lot of factors here. Giving them the death penalty would have been unduly harsh to the current students.

Again, it's not "fair", but neither is life. However,while it may be difficult, they players can still go to school, earn their degree and play football.

steelbtexan
07-31-2012, 10:19 PM
The players should suffer the consequences for making the decision to attend such a corrupt institution. It may not be fair, but it would teach them alot about the consequences of making bad decisions.

gtexan02
07-31-2012, 11:58 PM
The players should suffer the consequences for making the decision to attend such a corrupt institution. It may not be fair, but it would teach them alot about the consequences of making bad decisions.

Laughable. How would they have had any idea?

steelbtexan
08-01-2012, 01:50 AM
Laughable. How would they have had any idea?

Doesn't matter, it's about making a statement. If a few kids that can still get a free education and lose football what does it hurt? Aren't they supposed to be at Penn St for the education first and foremost?

2012Champs
08-01-2012, 08:56 AM
Doesn't matter, it's about making a statement. If a few kids that can still get a free education and lose football what does it hurt? Aren't they supposed to be at Penn St for the education first and foremost?

Of course it wouldn't matter to you because there is zero impact to you

steelbtexan
08-01-2012, 10:02 AM
Of course it wouldn't matter to you because there is zero impact to you

Agreed

Just keep in mind young boys were allowed to be raped for over a decade and the football program aided and abetted a child molester.

BTW, Penn St athletes can still get their degree. Isn't that what college is supposed to be for? So are the athleetes really that affected?

Lets just agree to disagree on this one.

2012Champs
08-01-2012, 10:12 AM
Agreed

Just keep in mind young boys were allowed to be raped for over a decade and the football program aided and abetted a child molester.

BTW, Penn St athletes can still get their degree. Isn't that what college is supposed to be for? So are the athleetes really that affected?

Lets just agree to disagree on this one.



If college was just about a degree it wouldnt be so damn expensive

gtexan02
08-01-2012, 10:16 AM
Agreed

Just keep in mind young boys were allowed to be raped for over a decade and the football program aided and abetted a child molester.



I think this is the crux of the issue here. I don't believe the football program aided and abetted a child molester. I believe that coaches, including the head coach and head of the program, aided and abetted a child molester in order to protect the program.

Theres a big difference.

If these Penn St players were adults (like professional NFL players) I say screw them and give them the death penalty. But they are kids. They aren't adults. Why screw more kids (pun intended)

Dutchrudder
08-01-2012, 10:45 AM
I think this is the crux of the issue here. I don't believe the football program aided and abetted a child molester. I believe that coaches, including the head coach and head of the program, aided and abetted a child molester in order to protect the program.

Theres a big difference.

If these Penn St players were adults (like professional NFL players) I say screw them and give them the death penalty. But they are kids. They aren't adults. Why screw more kids (pun intended)

They were employees of a business who did illegal things while working at said business, so the business is penalized. That's how it works in every other case of corruption within a business, this one is just a little different because it's the NCAA doing the penalizing instead of the IRS or SEC. Penn State is welcome to avoid all the sanctions by leaving the NCAA, they are only a member and are not required to stay.

gtexan02
08-01-2012, 10:48 AM
They were employees of a business who did illegal things while working at said business, so the business is penalized. That's how it works in every other case of corruption within a business, this one is just a little different because it's the NCAA doing the penalizing instead of the IRS or SEC. Penn State is welcome to avoid all the sanctions by leaving the NCAA, they are only a member and are not required to stay.

Thats not how the NCAA system works. These are students on scholarships, not employees. Like I said above, if these were adults and this was a business, I would totally agree. But these are not adults, they are not employees, and so its a totally different situation.

steelbtexan
08-01-2012, 10:59 AM
Thats not how the NCAA system works. These are students on scholarships, not employees. Like I said above, if these were adults and this was a business, I would totally agree. But these are not adults, they are not employees, and so its a totally different situation.

So are they students 1st or athletes 1st?

Because if they're students 1st (which they should be) then Penn St. is still honoring their scholarships. If they're athletes 1st and academics 2nd, then the football program should be shut down until this changes.

gtexan02
08-01-2012, 11:34 AM
So are they students 1st or athletes 1st?

Because if they're students 1st (which they should be) then Penn St. is still honoring their scholarships. If they're athletes 1st and academics 2nd, then the football program should be shut down until this changes.

You're trying to categorize them as one thing and not the other and thats not how it works. These are student athletes. The order is irrelevent

Hervoyel
08-01-2012, 12:55 PM
There's really two different things to address here. The legal price that should and will be paid by Sandusky and anyone (living) who helped cover up what he did. That will be addressed first and foremost by the law. The NCAA sanctions are broader in scope than what the law will deal with. They focus on the problems at the institution in general and the environment that existed and that allowed these crimes to happen the way they did in the first place. More than that though the NCAA should be looking at the way that the alumni, students, and football players at Penn State have circled the wagons, rallied behind Coach Paterno before his death, and in general seemed to not understand that they weren't the victims in this case. When I saw this press conference that the players who are staying held I decided for myself that the NCAA had not done enough because these young men do not seem to grasp anything pertaining to this case beyond their school and their team. They called a press conference, they came and defiantly said they were going to hold their heads up high and keep the faith. They did what every single group of assembled Penn State folks have done since this started. They grabbed the cameras, pointed them at themselves, and played victim.

The program should have been shut down. The players should have been given a chance to play elsewhere if they liked or to earn a degree at Penn State if they didn't want to go anywhere else. The town, the people, the alumni all need an enormous hand to come slap them back into reality and deliver at least a mild concussion of perspective. Instead of becoming the institution that was held up so high and then fell so far in shame they're going to be the "Little Engine That Could" over the next four years as they compete without Bowl games and with fewer scholarships. Every success will be celebrated as a triumph over their persecution.

I don't know why I expected the NCAA to get it right and honestly I don't blame them. Not a lot of people I know had a clear idea what to do. I know this now though. I know that Penn State is broken morally and needed to hit the reset button.

Dutchrudder
08-02-2012, 02:17 PM
I suppose this is a good place to put this. The Longhorns just got the PSU FG kicker, who is pretty good and has 2 years of eligibility left.

Current Players Leaving:

Ryan Nowicki (Illinois)
Rob Bolden (LSU)
Tim Buckley (NC State)
Khairi Fortt (Cal)
Jamil Pollard (Rutgers)
Silas Redd (USC)
Kevin Haplea (FSU)
Anthony Fera (Texas)

Current Players Considering Transferring:

Brian Gaia (considering Rutgers)
Mike Hull (considering Pitt)
Akeel Lynch (considering Iowa)

steelbtexan
08-02-2012, 02:58 PM
11 out of 80-90 scholarship players.

These sanctions certianly aren't anything that cant be overcome quickly.

Dutchrudder
08-02-2012, 03:58 PM
11 out of 80-90 scholarship players.

These sanctions certianly aren't anything that cant be overcome quickly.

Several of those guys are starters, and Redd was a workhorse RB. They will definitely be missed. I can't imagine many of the 2nd and 3rd string guys will get offers though, and it will be a long time before they get another 5-star recruit. No great HS prospect is going to want to go there for at least 2 years.

2012Champs
08-02-2012, 04:19 PM
11 out of 80-90 scholarship players.

These sanctions certianly aren't anything that cant be overcome quickly.



Im not sure you understand the scholorship issue

steelbtexan
08-02-2012, 07:03 PM
Im not sure you understand the scholorship issue

Maybe

But Penn St got off light. They will be rebuilt in 5 yrs or so. Meanwhile SMU who only paid student athletes $$$$ still haven't recovered.

Lets just agree to disagree.

2012Champs
08-03-2012, 09:08 AM
Maybe

But Penn St got off light. They will be rebuilt in 5 yrs or so. Meanwhile SMU who only paid student athletes $$$$ still haven't recovered.

Lets just agree to disagree.


Penn State wont be "back" in five years, Im not sure why you keep bringing up SMU and to say lets agree to disagree is a little silly if you keep posting about it.

Hervoyel
08-03-2012, 10:22 AM
Comparing SMU to Penn State is kind of pointless. SMU was a "never was" college football program that was only able to reach the heights that program did by paying players. Even at their peak they were barely significant outside of the SWC. When they disappeared it's not like a national following was affected. It's not like kids all over the country had their hopes dashed because they couldn't play football at SMU. Penn State on the other hand has been a college football power forever. Even if the punishments were identical it would be silly to assume that the death penalty would have the same affect on Penn State that it did on SMU. Penn State will without any doubt be back in business in 5 years. Not a doubt in my mind.

The NCAA is scared I think to hit schools with the death penalty after seeing how it destroyed SMU's program but somebody like Penn State, Oklahoma, UT, or Alabama wouldn't even begin to struggle the way SMU did. I think they erred on the side of caution in not hitting Penn State with it and I think that was a mistake.

2012Champs
08-03-2012, 11:17 AM
Comparing SMU to Penn State is kind of pointless. SMU was a "never was" college football program that was only able to reach the heights that program did by paying players. Even at their peak they were barely significant outside of the SWC. When they disappeared it's not like a national following was affected. It's not like kids all over the country had their hopes dashed because they couldn't play football at SMU. Penn State on the other hand has been a college football power forever. Even if the punishments were identical it would be silly to assume that the death penalty would have the same affect on Penn State that it did on SMU. Penn State will without any doubt be back in business in 5 years. Not a doubt in my mind.

The NCAA is scared I think to hit schools with the death penalty after seeing how it destroyed SMU's program but somebody like Penn State, Oklahoma, UT, or Alabama wouldn't even begin to struggle the way SMU did. I think they erred on the side of caution in not hitting Penn State with it and I think that was a mistake.



Because of the sliding scale of college football scholorships and how your pipeline gets drained they will not be able to fully reload with recruits for 8 years or something of that nature

Hervoyel
08-03-2012, 01:19 PM
Because of the sliding scale of college football scholorships and how your pipeline gets drained they will not be able to fully reload with recruits for 8 years or something of that nature

But I can point to countless college programs that have a full slate of scholarships who suck, have mostly always sucked, and will continue to suck. I expect that Penn State will start drawing quality players again as soon as the end of their punishment gets close enough for those players to get the chance to play in a bowl game. Even before that they will draw a better class of recruit than SMU did once they were stopped from paying them a salary. With just their remaining scholarships they'll be better than a lot of teams. I think you can count on that. That's the difference between a major program getting hit and a minor one. Nothing more.

gtexan02
08-03-2012, 05:15 PM
But I can point to countless college programs that have a full slate of scholarships who suck, have mostly always sucked, and will continue to suck. I expect that Penn State will start drawing quality players again as soon as the end of their punishment gets close enough for those players to get the chance to play in a bowl game. Even before that they will draw a better class of recruit than SMU did once they were stopped from paying them a salary. With just their remaining scholarships they'll be better than a lot of teams. I think you can count on that. That's the difference between a major program getting hit and a minor one. Nothing more.

Kids now are a what have you done for me lately type. Unless they have ties to Penn St, I dont think they will draw kids away from similar programs without the black eyes

steelbtexan
08-04-2012, 11:33 AM
Penn State wont be "back" in five years, Im not sure why you keep bringing up SMU and to say lets agree to disagree is a little silly if you keep posting about it.

Whatever

See where trying to be nice gets you.

ArlingtonTexan
08-05-2012, 01:43 PM
But I can point to countless college programs that have a full slate of scholarships who suck, have mostly always sucked, and will continue to suck. I expect that Penn State will start drawing quality players again as soon as the end of their punishment gets close enough for those players to get the chance to play in a bowl game. Even before that they will draw a better class of recruit than SMU did once they were stopped from paying them a salary. With just their remaining scholarships they'll be better than a lot of teams. I think you can count on that. That's the difference between a major program getting hit and a minor one. Nothing more.

Penn state has a base of support similiar to UT, A & M, OU, etc in that the stadium will still be full and degrees will still have value. Pennsylvania is a strong football state with plenty of guys growing up always wanting the Pennstate experience, education, etc. The school will have more trouble getting 5 stars from out of state, but they have enough scholarships and base of support where I would be shocked if they roll off multiple 2-10, 3-9 years.

Texecutioner
08-05-2012, 01:52 PM
I don't know all of the facts about this case, but I don't think that the UNiversity deserved the death penalty if they got rid of everyone that was involved or that had any idea of what was taking place. I thought they had cleaned house. I'm not sure if it's fair to punish the fans, the UNiversity, and everyone else that had no clue of what was taking place with the death penalty to where it might take them another 20 years to get back on track.

Double Barrel
08-06-2012, 12:34 PM
There's really two different things to address here. The legal price that should and will be paid by Sandusky and anyone (living) who helped cover up what he did. That will be addressed first and foremost by the law. The NCAA sanctions are broader in scope than what the law will deal with. They focus on the problems at the institution in general and the environment that existed and that allowed these crimes to happen the way they did in the first place. More than that though the NCAA should be looking at the way that the alumni, students, and football players at Penn State have circled the wagons, rallied behind Coach Paterno before his death, and in general seemed to not understand that they weren't the victims in this case. When I saw this press conference that the players who are staying held I decided for myself that the NCAA had not done enough because these young men do not seem to grasp anything pertaining to this case beyond their school and their team. They called a press conference, they came and defiantly said they were going to hold their heads up high and keep the faith. They did what every single group of assembled Penn State folks have done since this started. They grabbed the cameras, pointed them at themselves, and played victim.

The program should have been shut down. The players should have been given a chance to play elsewhere if they liked or to earn a degree at Penn State if they didn't want to go anywhere else. The town, the people, the alumni all need an enormous hand to come slap them back into reality and deliver at least a mild concussion of perspective. Instead of becoming the institution that was held up so high and then fell so far in shame they're going to be the "Little Engine That Could" over the next four years as they compete without Bowl games and with fewer scholarships. Every success will be celebrated as a triumph over their persecution.

I don't know why I expected the NCAA to get it right and honestly I don't blame them. Not a lot of people I know had a clear idea what to do. I know this now though. I know that Penn State is broken morally and needed to hit the reset button.

Great rant, Herv. I agree completely.

It is obvious that the entire "Penn State culture" is flawed, tainted, and cancerous. They value the wrong things in life, and the entire thing should be blown up, melted down, and rebuilt with the mentality that IT'S JUST FOOTBALL.

When an insular culture starts to circle wagons and defend the indefensible simply because they want to protect a brand, then there are obvious cracks in a foundation that need to be REPLACED before anything else is built on it. As it stands now, they can play the victim as a fanbase, play the school as martyr, and use the haze of moral relativism to hide themselves from the shameful, disgusting stories that will forever leave a permanent mark on the university by those on the outside. But within the school culture, they will gloss it over and eventually put that JoePa statue back where they believe it belongs: front and center in front of the football stadium. Mark my words, just a matter of time.

Goldensilence
08-07-2012, 09:03 PM
Former player and coach intend to try to appeal vacated wins.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8245600/former-penn-state-nittany-lions-players-intend-appeal-ncaa-sanctions


Really? I mean even former players and coaches just don't get it.

Initially I wavered on the death penalty after a couple of heated discussions, but seeing the reaction of the current and now former players...the institution and community that continue to circle the wagons deserve it.

TimeKiller
08-08-2012, 08:59 AM
Penn St. is lucky. If it were my decision, they would be tearing the stadium down right about now.