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Ibar_Harry
05-22-2005, 01:56 AM
Found this in ESPN's Len Pas article on the Horse Collar Tackle.

David Carr of Houston, the top overall choice in the 2002 draft, has reached performance levels that allow him to trigger a "void" in his contract, which temporarily means he is entering the final season of his deal. Temporarily because the Texans have the option of "buying back" the three voided years, with an $8 million bonus, and will definitely exercise that right.

Texans Pride
05-22-2005, 02:04 AM
Ibar, I don't speak legal, what does that mean?

BTW.,...I know A LOT of people give you crap about your post. I think your dead on with a lot of your points of views....To man people have their Texans blinders on though....Keep up the good post

Texan Dave
05-22-2005, 02:22 AM
What he means is the Texans will probably buy out the 3 remaining years of his contract, and then sign him to another long term deal that will be back loaded on the cap. This way they can save themselfs some cap space, if they are smart they will try and get the same kind of deal going this time around . This way, everyone stays happy, David gets large chunks of money, plus nice yearly salaries, and the Texans stay out of cap trouble.

cyanides
05-22-2005, 05:47 AM
This is c/p from houstonprofootball.com at the bottom of the unoffical salary cap page.

* David Carr is in the option year of his rookie contract. If the option is exercised, Carr's contract extends through 2008 and he is due a pro-rateable $8,000,000 bonus. Base salaries for the next three years would be $5.25 million in 2006 and 2007 and $6 million in 2008.

I read that as the Texans can choose to keep or release David after this year. If they choose to keep him it will cost the Texans 8,000,000. I look at it as signing bonus on a three year contract that was already negotiated four years ago. I also read that as David's only option is to take the money or hold out if he doesn't want to be here or doesn't think 13.25 in 2006 is enough money.

Vinny
05-22-2005, 12:19 PM
Most of have known about this since 2002

aj.
05-22-2005, 01:06 PM
Did you know this about David's contract!
Yes.

The details of his contract were first reported in the Houston Chronicle on April 20, 2002 and have been discussed here many times since.

I keep these words handy because this has come up so often:

Carr's contract has the "potential" to go 7 years but 2005 is an option year. That means his contract will expire at the end of the 2005 season if the Texans do not exercise one of two buyback options, (either a two-year or a three-year buy back). This is what's called voidable years.

If the Texans exercise the two year option, Carr will receive a bonus of $5.5 million upon signing and base salaries in '06 and '07 of $5 million and $5.25 million respectively.

If the Texans choose the three year option (to fully exercise the 7 year deal), Carr will receive a bonus of $8 million upon signing and bases of $5.25 million in '06 and '07 and $6 million in '08.

Gaffney had the same exact clause in his contract and his final three years have been voided as well.

I'm not sure what the exact performance levels were in Carr and Gaffney's case but they are usually not difficult to meet if you become a regular player In other words, this was already planned for three years ago.

Lucky
05-22-2005, 01:25 PM
If the Texans choose the three year option (to fully exercise the 7 year deal), Carr will receive a bonus of $8 million upon signing and bases of $5.25 million in '06 and '07 and $6 million in '08.
This would basically be a 3 year $24.5 million contract. Don't you think the Texans would offer Carr a longer term deal with more money up front (& smaller yearly salaries), thus making the contract more cap friendly?

aj.
05-22-2005, 01:29 PM
They can do whatever they want as long as both sides agree. Those figures are what was in the initial terms and conditions back in '02 (according to the Chronicle and ESPN).

Lucky
05-22-2005, 01:43 PM
They can do whatever they want as long as both sides agree. Those figures are what was in the initial terms and conditions back in '02 (according to the Chronicle and ESPN).
Yeah, I know. I was asking for your opinion.

Ibar_Harry
05-22-2005, 02:11 PM
I don't think many have been talking about this being David's last year. You have to wonder a little with the lack of O-line protection, taking a beating every game he plays, and the abuse his family took in the stands last year, you just have to wonder what might be going through his mind. I would also add he is very much a family man whose oldest son now has a medical problem. I think this is a pivatol year for the Texans in a lot of respects and I hope it is a good one. Do we go forward or backward this year? I have no reason to believe David will not remain a Texan, but I could see a very frustrating year making him change his mind.

Vinny
05-22-2005, 02:14 PM
I don't think many have been talking about this being David's last year.

I have no reason to believe David will not remain a Texan, but I could see a very frustrating year making him change his mind.Well, you haven't seen anyone talking about it because it isn't his last year. It is the teams choice to evoke the 8 mil bonus or release his last years.....not David's.

Ibar_Harry
05-22-2005, 02:32 PM
Well, you haven't seen anyone talking about it because it isn't his last year. It is the teams choice to evoke the 8 mil bonus or release his last years.....not David's.

But it could be couldn't it Vinny. Its like last year when I was questioning how well Glenn was doing and being lambasted. Strange what a difference a few months make. Actually, given the kind of offense the Texans want to run I could actually see them not renewing David's contract and carrying on with Ragone. They would save a lot of cap space and could pursue some more defensive players. Remember, as so many of you want to say, its a business. I could see David holding out, but that's not really his style. We are into the 4th year and what can David say he has really accomplished? Well, he's set records for being beaten up. Great achievement isn't it. I really do question the clubs desire to protect David and why they drafted him. His strenth is his ability to pass not hand the ball off to a back. David never has been a great play faker. All I'm saying is David, so far has not been a great match for what this ball club wants to do. I'm hoping that this year will be different and there are some reasons to be optomistic, but we will just have to wait and see.

Lucky
05-22-2005, 02:38 PM
...Actually, given the kind of offense the Texans want to run I could actually see them not renewing David's contract and carrying on with Ragone...
Oh, come on! "The Texans" boils down to Bob McNair. Do you "actually" think McNair would let the face of his franchise leave over an $8 million bonus? Get real.

Vinny
05-22-2005, 02:41 PM
But it could be couldn't it Vinny. Its like last year when I was questioning how well Glenn was doing and being lambasted. Strange what a difference a few months make. Actually, given the kind of offense the Texans want to run I could actually see them not renewing David's contract and carrying on with Ragone. They would save a lot of cap space and could pursue some more defensive players. Remember, as so many of you want to say, its a business. I could see David holding out, but that's not really his style. We are into the 4th year and what can David say he has really accomplished? Well, he's set records for being beaten up. Great achievement isn't it. I really do question the clubs desire to protect David and why they drafted him. His strenth is his ability to pass not hand the ball off to a back. David never has been a great play faker. All I'm saying is David, so far has not been a great match for what this ball club wants to do. I'm hoping that this year will be different and there are some reasons to be optomistic, but we will just have to wait and see.Ibar, you say some pretty ridiculous things on a regular basis but this takes the cake. The team has zero interest in changing QB's....And Carr holding out? For what? I think I will go back to not responding to you. Your posture on this is just absurd.

Ibar_Harry
05-22-2005, 02:49 PM
I've long thought you two were ghosts... and this post of
patting each other for you lack on knowledge make me mad
that I didn't bet on it. Oh, well I put an extra bet on the Over
7.5 wins this to make up for it.. :cool:

I hope your bet pays off. As much as you may think not, I really am a Texans fan. In fact my fondest dreams would be to see them in the SB. However, I'm very frustrated with what I think are very obvious problems particularly with the coaching ranks. Again, you obviously feel differently and that's your right. I post as who I am and I post under only 1 name. I guess some of you can not believe there are other people out there with different opinions on how the Texans are doing. In particular Palmer should have been gone a long time ago. I would have loved to see Sam here rather than at Buffalo as he would be a good opposite to work with Capers. It will be interesting to see how Buffalo's QB performs under his tuitoring. I still say the best QB coach out there is Tedford at Cal. He is a QB's coach and has been very successful at it despite what people say. Just look at how many are in the NFL that have been under his wing. I don't think any other coach has as many in the NFL at the present time. I think it reads somewhat like Carr, Dilfer, Volick, Boiler, Harrington and the young man at GB. He's done it at a lot of different programs. Anyway, once again good luck on your bet.

Ibar_Harry
05-22-2005, 02:57 PM
You know the greatest thing that could happen this year is that the line problems are solved and the team comes together and makes the playoffs and gets to the SB. Could that happen? Would I be happy? Yes, and all of you would be saying I told you so and I could care less, because I would also be very happy. In reality, however, I simply think its not in the cards unless would do something that somehow changes and ultimately brings the O-line together. We have a lot of weapons that are simply under utilized because of the O-line. Capers does not focus on it because he's a defensive coach. AGAIN, I HOPE THEY PROVE ME WRONG, BECAUSE I WOULD BE DELIROUS WITH JOY.

Vinny
05-22-2005, 02:58 PM
BECAUSE I WOULD BE DELIROUS WITH JOY.Kinda like when you were on the ESPN boards predicting we win the Super Bowl in 2002 because we drafted your local boy Carr, huh?

Ibar_Harry
05-22-2005, 03:53 PM
Yes, Vinny I have watched David play and I have an idea on what he can and can not do. I think he also has a lot of talent which if used in the right way could be very productive in the NFL. I think from some of your posts you don't feel the same way about Carr. I continue to say that Carr will not show his abilities nor can he show them until he has an O-line that gives him half a chance. In one of the other threads people were commenting on the Minnissota game as being perhaps his best and of course they mentioned he had time to throw in that game. Amazingly we almost came from behind and won the ball game. David's game is passing and he does it well when protected. Its kind of amazing that I said this year in a thread that I didn't think things were right with Glenn and it wasn't I don't believe a half hour later he was going to be given his release. I said last year before the season started the Texans had been hurt badly by injuries the preceeding year and that Glenn was not what he was. I was castigated for these comments at the time and they were correct. I still maintain there is a lot of talent on this ball club that is not being used in the best way possible and that includes AJ. It is time for this ball club to come together and produce and the comments "if they would only execute no longer hold water".

Vinny
05-22-2005, 03:56 PM
Ibar, this is the NFL. One guy can't win it all and it takes some time to field a team to compete in the NFL on an ongoing basis. We need 22 quality starters and an equal amount of back ups. From you proclaiming us the Super Bowl favorites in 2002 to now...you don't show much understanding of the NFL.

Ibar_Harry
05-22-2005, 04:02 PM
Your right Vinny its not about 1 man. I have continued to state with an O-line protecting him, as a team, we could accomplish a lot more than we are. I have stated what I think is clear, obvious, and quite detailed. Fix the O-line and this ball club may go somewhere with People like David, AJ and DD. Don't fix the O-line and we go nowhere. People say David has happy feet, he doesn't trust his receivers, he doesn't do his reads. You know what the guy is running for his life 90% of the time. That does not lead to a productive NFL offense.

Vinny
05-22-2005, 04:28 PM
Replacing the O-line every year would be like replacing the QB every year. That just doesn't work in the NFL. This is the first year we have not made radical changes. I know you have no patience, but we have made moves over the last two years to get us here. We are on the verge of a huge playoff run. If that isn't good enough for you...so be it.

Ibar_Harry
05-22-2005, 05:48 PM
Replacing the O-line every year would be like replacing the QB every year. That just doesn't work in the NFL. This is the first year we have not made radical changes. I know you have no patience, but we have made moves over the last two years to get us here. We are on the verge of a huge playoff run. If that isn't good enough for you...so be it.

Vinny I hope you are correct and I stand corrected if you are. I wish I had your confidence............ I just know if we don't protect our QB better than we have we won't have him and it won't matter what you and I think. I would love nothing better than for you to be right.

Texans Pride
05-22-2005, 05:50 PM
I've long thought you two were ghosts


Aww, Caddy, does this mean you don't see me as an equal, as a Texans fan, in your eyes? Does the mean we can't party together at the games when I come home?

That really makes me sad....

Texan Dave
05-22-2005, 06:51 PM
Guys, come on, David isn't going anywear, if the organization uses this "void" it will be simply to restructure his contract, and keep him here longer. This guy threw for nearly 4,000 yards, behind one of the, or possibly the worst offensive line in the NFL. He's a good QB, with a lot of years ahead of him, we'll get the offensive line situation fixed. I can see them moving Pitts back out to LT, and putting Wand or that new guy from NO at guard. He may be a little short compared to a lot of the LT's in the league, but Brad Hopkins is only 6'3", and he's been playing at an elevated level for years now.

Dime
05-22-2005, 07:51 PM
Have any one here even considered it might not be the Texans that void the contract. It might be David. Why might you ask would he do something like that. He has proven he can win, and proven he can scramble and even proven he can be a force even without a good front line. So... would it be insaine for him to get a offer to be in another team that HAS a good oline to protect him and has a good chance of being a final piece for a playoff run. Carr has been getting HAMMERED with our Oline, and we havent done to much to improve it. I would be considering it because he could be behind a gelled line, and do a playoff chance AND probably sign a contract paying him much more then he can make right now even with the bonus extension. He is a smart boy. His body aint going to take much more of this. He commented last year about drafting in the oline which we didnt, if things done work out this year, dont be surprised to see him void it. Just a thought folks.

texansfan88
05-22-2005, 07:53 PM
BTW.,...I know A LOT of people give you crap about your post. I think your dead on with a lot of your points of views....To man people have their Texans blinders on though....Keep up the good post
Okay, hate to harp on this point, but leave that kind of stuff out, save it for private messages and stuff...dont make irrelivant points that have nothing to do with the topic at hand...next time just send a private message...thanks

D-ReK
05-22-2005, 07:59 PM
Have any one here even considered it might not be the Texans that void the contract. It might be David. Why might you ask would he do something like that. He has proven he can win, and proven he can scramble and even proven he can be a force even without a good front line. So... would it be insaine for him to get a offer to be in another team that HAS a good oline to protect him and has a good chance of being a final piece for a playoff run. Carr has been getting HAMMERED with our Oline, and we havent done to much to improve it. I would be considering it because he could be behind a gelled line, and do a playoff chance AND probably sign a contract paying him much more then he can make right now even with the bonus extension. He is a smart boy. His body aint going to take much more of this. He commented last year about drafting in the oline which we didnt, if things done work out this year, dont be surprised to see him void it. Just a thought folks.

This has already been brought up and was cleared up by this post (http://houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=123940&postcount=11)...

It's the team's option to retain Carr, not his...

swtbound07
05-22-2005, 08:09 PM
Have any one here even considered it might not be the Texans that void the contract. It might be David. Why might you ask would he do something like that. He has proven he can win, and proven he can scramble and even proven he can be a force even without a good front line. So... would it be insaine for him to get a offer to be in another team that HAS a good oline to protect him and has a good chance of being a final piece for a playoff run. Carr has been getting HAMMERED with our Oline, and we havent done to much to improve it. I would be considering it because he could be behind a gelled line, and do a playoff chance AND probably sign a contract paying him much more then he can make right now even with the bonus extension. He is a smart boy. His body aint going to take much more of this. He commented last year about drafting in the oline which we didnt, if things done work out this year, dont be surprised to see him void it. Just a thought folks.


not to point out the blindingly obvious....but our best record for a season is 7-9 yet david carr is a proven winner?

CoachJim
05-22-2005, 08:25 PM
Okay, hate to harp on this point, but leave that kind of stuff out, save it for private messages and stuff...dont make irrelivant points that have nothing to do with the topic at hand...next time just send a private message...thanks

Quick ... somebody hurry up & make this guy a mod! :pigfly:

aj.
05-22-2005, 08:27 PM
This has already been brought up and was cleared up by this post (http://houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=123940&postcount=11)...

It's the team's option to retain Carr, not his...

Generally, voidable years is the player's forcing function on the team to pay him more money because of performance incentives met. It's a way for players to get out of their original contracts and get more money out of the team. If the team can't or won't ante up, the player can bolt earlier than the original term of the deal. If the contract is voided, it usually means the player was better than average (if it's a good contract) and the team has reaped some benefit - hence the pay raise. If a contract that contains voidable years isn't voided (because of incentives not met) there's a good chance the player won't be around to see the end of it anyway.

Texans Pride
05-22-2005, 08:34 PM
Okay, hate to harp on this point, but leave that kind of stuff out, save it for private messages and stuff...dont make irrelivant points that have nothing to do with the topic at hand...next time just send a private message...thanks

I made a post that specifically pertained to the topic at hand. I then chose to add something else in, since I was already asking Ibar a question.

However, you should follow your own advice since you feel so strongly about it. I believe you confronted me in this thread entitled “Did You Know This about David’s Contract?” It surely isn’t entitled “Confront Texans Pride on His Placement of Compliments.” Perhaps you should have sent me a private message. Thanks

ocd
05-22-2005, 08:36 PM
Replacing the O-line every year would be like replacing the QB every year. That just doesn't work in the NFL. This is the first year we have not made radical changes. I know you have no patience, but we have made moves over the last two years to get us here. We are on the verge of a huge playoff run. If that isn't good enough for you...so be it.


Sorry to interrupt the discussion between you two but the question relating to the O line should really be asked of what are we doing to improve the line? Vinny you are correct in that we can't change personnel every year. No question about that. But we haven't even been drafting for depth and/or development let alone change and/or competition. Since nothing was done in the draft for the line what have we done in the offseason? Who did we recently get? Victor Riley? 31 year old RIGHT tackle?

Ibar you are correct in that Carr will never be able to show his talents because he is running for his life behind the worst line in the NFL. The majority of Carr's passing yards have come when the opposing team has gone into their prevent defense and that's pretty sad. Carr only had two games last year over 300 yards (Minn and Detroit) and a pathetic 114 yard game against Cleveland. Just ask yourself this question, what would Schottenheimer do with our O line if became the head coach? Year 4 and we're still hoping our O line is gonna develop chemistry.

bigtex77
05-22-2005, 08:44 PM
Everyone know about the curse of the Bambino, maybe our curse was Boselli.

michaelm
05-22-2005, 08:49 PM
I made a post that specifically pertained to the topic at hand. I then chose to add something else in, since I was already asking Ibar a question.

However, you should follow your own advice since you feel so strongly about it. I believe you confronted me in this thread entitled “Did You Know This about David’s Contract?” It surely isn’t entitled “Confront Texans Pride on His Placement of Compliments.” Perhaps you should have sent me a private message. Thanks


WORD!!! :highfive:


(as my street smart friends would say...)

DRIFTAWAY
05-22-2005, 09:19 PM
Okay, hate to harp on this point, but leave that kind of stuff out, save it for private messages and stuff...dont make irrelivant points that have nothing to do with the topic at hand...next time just send a private message...thanks

I don't wanna intrude on comments not involving me or anything but that reply you made was just as irrelevant as the one he made, and he was simply stating a compliment. Nothing wrong with showing some love. Oh and most threads here always have a message or two that are off-topic, so just get used to it.

infantrycak
05-22-2005, 09:35 PM
Ibar you are correct in that Carr will never be able to show his talents because he is running for his life behind the worst line in the NFL.

Year 4 and we're still hoping our O line is gonna develop chemistry.

Just to be ticky tacky, Chicago, San Fran, New York Giants, Miami, Atlanta and St. Louis all gave up more sacks than the Texans and Chicago, San Fran and Miami averaged less ypc rushing. I'll go with there being at least three teams with worse OL's. That should make everyone feel very, very marginally better. :rolleyes:

As for chemistry, this is the 1st year there have not been wholesale changes to the OL so really it is the first time chemistry is even being given a chance.

Wolf
05-22-2005, 09:42 PM
Just to be ticky tacky, Chicago, San Fran, New York Giants, Miami, Atlanta and St. Louis all gave up more sacks than the Texans and Chicago, San Fran and Miami averaged less ypc rushing. I'll go with there being at least three teams with worse OL's. That should make everyone feel very, very marginally better. :rolleyes:

As for chemistry, this is the 1st year there have not been wholesale changes to the OL so really it is the first time chemistry is even being given a chance.


very true also we are going to timing routes, which should help Carr get rid of the ball quicker.

ocd
05-22-2005, 10:12 PM
I'll go with there being at least three teams with worse OL's. That should make everyone feel very, very marginally better. :rolleyes:






:goodbad:



:bag:

Lucky
05-22-2005, 11:09 PM
Just to be ticky tacky, Chicago, San Fran, New York Giants, Miami, Atlanta and St. Louis all gave up more sacks than the Texans and Chicago, San Fran and Miami averaged less ypc rushing. I'll go with there being at least three teams with worse OL's. That should make everyone feel very, very marginally better.
Being the killjoy I am, I'll mention that da Bears, Niners, G-men, & Phins all dipped into free agengy for starting tackles. The Rams spent a 1st round pick on a tackle. Of that list, only the Falcons & Texans stood pat. We'll see which tact marginally improved their teams' offensive line play over the course of the upcoming season

bckey
05-22-2005, 11:32 PM
Replacing the O-line every year would be like replacing the QB every year. That just doesn't work in the NFL. This is the first year we have not made radical changes. I know you have no patience, but we have made moves over the last two years to get us here. We are on the verge of a huge playoff run. If that isn't good enough for you...so be it.

All I know Vinny is I don't think we should stop making changes to the offensive line until we have 5 players that we are happy with. Why let 5 players stay together and develop a chemistry if you aren't happy with a couple of them? Our current OL will never get us over the hump. We are 1 or 2 lineman away. We may have a winning season for the first time but no real playoff run until we fix our line problem.

AnotherBannedUser
05-23-2005, 02:58 AM
interesting i wish there was and option so david could retire and we can go on to look for a legit QB. at this moment i would rather have tony banks at the helm. i might get banned for speaking my mind but oh well :twocents:

U4ikrob
05-23-2005, 10:24 AM
I have said all along that this year is a decision making year. A year that everyone comes under scrutiny including Mr. Carr and the coaches/GM.

I fully expect them to make the standard offer to David based on the contract incentives. However I dont predict that offer to come right away nor do I expect David to sign it right away. I expect more of a wait and see metod by both sides. If David doesnt improve his consistency of play they will hold on making the offer till closer to the end of the season. If the O-line doesnt improve and protect David on a Consistent and Regular basis I fully expect David to hold out and make a fuss about them not doing enough to protect the future of the franchise.

No - One man does not win a game, but one man can make the difference between winning and losing a game especially if he is the QB. No other position on the field has as much impact on a team's win/loss record.

Honestly I keep hearing this company line about the "Chemistry" with the O-line and I just have to wonder - Why do they keep bringing it up? Who are they trying to convince? My guess is it's the fans and the media, because the rest of the teams in league know better and wont be fooled by the hype. I hope the front office "Gamble" with keeping the O-line together pays off better than their plans for Tight end has done thus far because the stats and sack record and performance of those same players sure didnt show it last year especially at the end of the year.