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GP
06-28-2012, 11:01 PM
Just as I have said before: This team's passing game IS predicated upon the run game, we're not a passing team...we're a run team that runs so well that the passing game depends upon the success of the run game.

If you want to see a passing team who passes the hell out of the ball, look no further than the Saints. But THIS Texans team is a run team first and foremost.

And Ron Jaworski approves of my stance on this issue (http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/38142/jaws-on-matt-schaub-as-the-no-13-qb) (read below!).

In ESPN’s 30-part “Jaws' QB Countdown” series, we’ve reached Houston’s Matt Schaub.

The segments -- produced by the NFL Matchup team at NFL Films -- are airing on "SportsCenter," "NFL Live" and "NFL32."


Schaub
Ron Jaworski ranks Schaub 13th.

Here’s his analysis of some film:
“Many might not be aware, but Schaub is a 65 percent passer as the Texans' five-year starter with two 4,000-yard seasons. He’s at his best in a controlled pass game that features play-action.

“I did a study going back to 2008. Schaub has been among the best in the NFL on first-and-10 over the last four years. Two things stood out. First, yards per attempt: consistently above nine. That means Schaub is generating explosive plays. Second, the percentage of first-down throws that produced another first down: Schaub has been in the top five each of those four seasons.

“The Texans’ offensive foundation is the zone run. The passing game works off that. Like almost all quarterbacks, Schaub must be managed by the schematics of the pass game, as well as the play calling. The late Bill Walsh was a strong believer in that concept of quarterback manipulation.

“This play against the Saints is a great example of what I’m talking about. The design of the play broke down the defense. First you had the motion by (Houston Texans wide receiver) Andre Johnson across the formation. Notice the ball was snapped before the corner could get lined up. Then you had hard, run-action away from Johnson. That moved the linebackers out of the passing lane. You had Johnson exploding off the line and a clear window for Schaub. Pitch and catch.

“One critical measurement for a quarterback is consistency. Schaub has been a very stable, measured player in his Texans career. I have always had concerns about his durability. He needs to stay on the field and be accountable for 16 games.”

Earlier in the series, Jacksonville’s Blaine Gabbert was 29th and Tennessee's Matt Hasselbeck was 18th.

infantrycak
06-28-2012, 11:10 PM
Nice job of taking one line out of context. Did you bother to read the entire paragraph in front of what you bolded?

Wait, for your reading leisure:

Schaub has been among the best in the NFL on first-and-10 over the last four years. Two things stood out. First, yards per attempt: consistently above nine. That means Schaub is generating explosive plays. Second, the percentage of first-down throws that produced another first down: Schaub has been in the top five each of those four seasons.

Oh my freaking lord, so the rushing oriented team is passing enough for the above to be true - how could that possibly happen?

We have a good rushing game now. That doesn't mean we are a rush oriented team. We are a balanced attack team playing off what Kubiak has always done with play action and boots.

Doppelganger
06-28-2012, 11:27 PM
Nice job of taking one line out of context. Did you bother to read the entire paragraph in front of what you bolded?

Wait, for your reading leisure:



Oh my freaking lord, so the rushing oriented team is passing enough for the above to be true - how could that possibly happen?

We have a good rushing game now. That doesn't mean we are a rush oriented team. We are a balanced attack team playing off what Kubiak has always done with play action and boots.

I agree that ideally the team is a balanced attack. However, last year due to the Schaub and then Leonard injury the team turned to 5th rook to play qb. As a result I think Kubes was forced to rush more than he wanted to protect Yates.

One of the things with the Denver system is that they ran it for years witha passer and didn't really get anywhere. It was only when a quality passer was combined with a quality rusher that they finally won the sb. After years Kubes finally has a quality rusher and passer. He can finally run that balanced attack he has wanted for so long.

infantrycak
06-28-2012, 11:34 PM
I agree that ideally the team is a balanced attack. However, last year due to the Schaub and then Leonard injury the team turned to 5th rook to play qb. As a result I think Kubes was forced to rush more than he wanted to protect Yates.

One of the things with the Denver system is that they ran it for years witha passer and didn't really get anywhere. It was only when a quality passer was combined with a quality rusher that they finally won the sb. After years Kubes finally has a quality rusher and passer. He can finally run that balanced attack he has wanted for so long.

Totally agree with that. At the end of the day though, Kubiak is a former NFL QB and known as a QB guru. He is not setting up a system to be an unbalanced rushing attack. Schaub and AJ led the passing and receiving yards in a year we had zero rushing attack. People keep making this rushing assertion and we are not and have never been and never will be (under Kubiak) a power rush it down your throat and only pass in desperation kind of team.

Brisco_County
06-29-2012, 12:04 AM
Kubiak ideally wants a balanced attack in order to have versatility in scheming. The more cards in his deck, the more ability to throw a team off balance.

rush2112mn
06-29-2012, 03:11 AM
If you dont have a rushing attack, or a threat of a rush, your passing game will not be as effective. We have seen that in the past here.....
Schaub makes a lot of things happen with his rollouts from center.
Plus, he has been in the offense since Kubiak first got here. He knows it inside and out.
I am praying he stays healthy......:fans::texan::logo:

ckhouston
06-29-2012, 06:18 AM
This team's passing game IS predicated upon the run game, we're not a passing team...we're a run team that runs so well that the passing game depends upon the success of the run game.

THIS Texans team is a run team first and foremost.

Agreed, and for anyone who knows the game it is obvious.

thunderkyss
06-29-2012, 06:49 AM
Just as I have said before: This team's passing game IS predicated upon the run game, we're not a passing team...we're a run team that runs so well that the passing game depends upon the success of the run game.

If you want to see a passing team who passes the hell out of the ball, look no further than the Saints. But THIS Texans team is a run team first and foremost.

And Ron Jaworski approves of my stance on this issue (http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/38142/jaws-on-matt-schaub-as-the-no-13-qb) (read below!).

Welp, if Jaws says it...

I mean, never mind the fact that he works for the network we call BSPN & disregard everything else they say.

If he supports your opinion.... it must be right.

welsh texan
06-29-2012, 08:01 AM
I remember a few years back when we had that classic rushing 1-2 punch of Green-Dayne having D's trembling in their cleats, Kubiak getting laughed out of town for suggesting that our great passing offense needs to use the run to set up the pass.

Kubiak's O is all about being a run-first balanced attack which can be explosive in the passing game because our zone rush can take it to the house from anywhere. When the run is going well, we put up big passing numbers by breaking a few big plays through the air, by putting the D off guard.

When we've been a lesser team and the run hasn't been working a few years back, we've put up big numbers passing because we've been chasing the game from the 2nd Q onwards, and the D has allowed us high completion on short and medium stuff, but when its come to goal-line/big 3rd down situations, they've been able to stop us when they wanted to.

Now that we've got what we need in both areas, all those 3rd down & goalline complaints have disappeared into thin air.

To me, we are clearly a run first team who are capable of blowing it open through the air when we choose, rather than when the D lets us. Hence how good we are on 1st down passing, because we can choose to throw it on first down rather than feeling we have to run it.

This is the reason why we're so devastating with winning talent, and also why we put up big numbers with losing talent, through those bad years, Kubiak stuck to his philosophy when arguably a change-up would have offered more short term success. Over time, a lot of the talent that was mediocre is still on the team, having learnt their trade and become successful at it, and all it took was some great O-line coaching and a couple of good picks at RB.

I don't get this viewpoint from endless tape study, I've formed it from 6 years of watching every Sunday live, a load of reading of articles, and a lot of viewing different opinions on here. I'm surprised that there is really any argument about it, I see it as well established all the way back to the Denver days.

eriadoc
06-29-2012, 08:50 AM
What Kubiak really wants to recreate is the Super Bowl seasons that Denver had. They came out and blew the doors off opponents in the first half and then ran the ball the second half. For whatever reason, that hasn't really materialized. That's one of the reasons Schaub's incredibly slow starts a couple seasons ago raise red flags for me. Yeah, the defense was giving up 17-20 pts in the first half, but the offense scored 7 or fewer 10 or 11 times. In order to do what Kubiak wants to do, that needs to be reversed. And it has been from time to time, but Schaub needs to consistently be at his best in the first half, IMO.

GP
06-29-2012, 09:14 AM
Welp, if Jaws says it...

I mean, never mind the fact that he works for the network we call BSPN & disregard everything else they say.

If he supports your opinion.... it must be right.

Yeah, Ron Jaworski doesn't know anything about football.

Once again, you're trying to swim upstream on something and it's getting you nowhere.

It's not like he's some kid in Duluth who has a podcast with 3 subscribers. Ron Jaworski knows football.

DBCooper
06-29-2012, 09:19 AM
Agreed, and for anyone who knows the game it is obvious.

I don't agree at all.

Ideally, Kubiak would love to run first to set up the pass, but the Texans have only done that starting halfway through last year. (And in spurts prior to last season)

All of the Schaub years have been pass-centric to my eye.

I would like for the Texans to dominate the run and have everything else come off that, but to say we are a running team "first and foremost" is not what I've seen at all.

HoustonFrog
06-29-2012, 09:42 AM
Welp, if Jaws says it...

I mean, never mind the fact that he works for the network we call BSPN & disregard everything else they say.

If he supports your opinion.... it must be right.

I trust JAWS almost more than any analyst out there. For one he does alot of his film work with Greg Cossell, who is probably one of if not the best talent evaluators and film gurus out there. His work with NFL Films and on Monday Night Matchup is hardcore. Some of these guys are more than ESPN talking heads.

thunderkyss
06-29-2012, 10:30 AM
What Kubiak really wants to recreate is the Super Bowl seasons that Denver had. They came out and blew the doors off opponents in the first half and then ran the ball the second half. For whatever reason, that hasn't really materialized. That's one of the reasons Schaub's incredibly slow starts a couple seasons ago raise red flags for me. Yeah, the defense was giving up 17-20 pts in the first half, but the offense scored 7 or fewer 10 or 11 times. In order to do what Kubiak wants to do, that needs to be reversed. And it has been from time to time, but Schaub needs to consistently be at his best in the first half, IMO.

Careful what you say about Schaub.....

:cowboy1:

ckhouston
06-29-2012, 10:52 AM
I don't agree at all.

Ideally, Kubiak would love to run first to set up the pass, but the Texans have only done that starting halfway through last year. (And in spurts prior to last season)

All of the Schaub years have been pass-centric to my eye.

I would like for the Texans to dominate the run and have everything else come off that, but to say we are a running team "first and foremost" is not what I've seen at all.

Why does everyone live in the past on this topic?

RIGHT NOW ... TODAY ... Texans are a semi-balanced team with a heavy lean to the run.

DBCooper
06-29-2012, 11:02 AM
Why does everyone live in the past on this topic?

RIGHT NOW ... TODAY ... Texans are a semi-balanced team with a heavy lean to the run.

I can only hope they are as you say, that's what I want.

But, they only started playing run heavy last year because they had TJ running the show.

Put Schaub back in there and what will we get?

I don't know.


I can only guess from what I've seen.

noxiousdog
06-29-2012, 11:06 AM
RIGHT NOW ... TODAY ... Texans are a semi-balanced team with a heavy lean to the run.

I think optimally kubiak has been quoted as wanting to be 60/40 pass. I'm sure that means with Schaub.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2

ckhouston
06-29-2012, 11:16 AM
I think optimally kubiak has been quoted as wanting to be 60/40 pass. I'm sure that means with Schaub.

I can see us at 65-70% run this year, using the pass for mid-range third down conversions, and to catch the opponent sleeping and dropping the bomb to AJ on them now and again. Our defense will keep us in every game, we should be able to ground and pound.

thunderkyss
06-29-2012, 11:22 AM
I can see us at 65-70% run this year, using the pass for mid-range third down conversions, and to catch the opponent sleeping and dropping the bomb to AJ on them now and again. Our defense will keep us in every game, we should be able to ground and pound.

If he's the Kubiak I thought we were getting in 2006, we may be in that range, because we're blowing people out in the first quarter & running it down their throats the rest of the way.

infantrycak
06-29-2012, 11:24 AM
You folks are seriously high if you think our rush percentage reaches anything approaching 70%.

Double Barrel
06-29-2012, 11:45 AM
I agree that ideally the team is a balanced attack. However, last year due to the Schaub and then Leonard injury the team turned to 5th rook to play qb. As a result I think Kubes was forced to rush more than he wanted to protect Yates.

One of the things with the Denver system is that they ran it for years witha passer and didn't really get anywhere. It was only when a quality passer was combined with a quality rusher that they finally won the sb. After years Kubes finally has a quality rusher and passer. He can finally run that balanced attack he has wanted for so long.

Gotta' disagree with the bolded. Making it to three Super Bowls - regardless of the outcomes - is far from not getting anywhere. I'd love to have a hometown team that just made it to the Super Bowl once, much less three times.

Agree with the rest, though. Adding T.D. to the mix was what finally put Elway over the top with his offense to win two championships.

Playoffs
06-29-2012, 11:51 AM
Welp, if Jaws says it... Yep. Vick & Flacco over Schaub? No thanks. Tony Romo? Great talent, but that guy single-handedly loses games (w/help of Garrett). And Stafford worse than Schaub and the guys mentioned above? (Hey Detroit, wanna trade?)

We've been pass based and rush first based -- which gives us some nice flexibility & makes it tougher to game-plan against. We'll never be the Saints O.

GP
06-29-2012, 11:55 AM
I guess this always comes down to a "Which came first, the run or the pass..."

To me, a great play-action pass game (which is what Schaub is known for, and by which Kubiak loves to create mismatches--as Jaws said) is achieved only if the defense respects the run 100%.

Of course a defense is still going to attack what they think is a run play at the snap, but then we have levels of commitment that come into play: How hard does the D bite on that fake, what resources/personnel do they over-commit to stopping the anticipated run play, etc.? Does it cause the D players to have mental pause at all the wrong times throughout a game?

Put Donald Brown back there as Texans RB and I don't think, over the course of a season, that this team would pass very efficiently. When a D spearheads into a single focal point, they leave their flanks upon to attack...which is why a vicious cutback artist like AF tears defenses to shreds. He gets to their exposed flanks and he's gone. And as Jaws explained, this also is what causes AJ to get so open the majority of the time--D is over-committing at the wrong time(s) in order to pursue AF or BT.

thunderkyss
06-29-2012, 11:59 AM
Put Donald Brown back there as Texans RB and I don't think, over the course of a season, that this team would pass very efficiently. When a D spearheads into a single focal point, they leave their flanks upon to attack...which is why a vicious cutback artist like AF tears defenses to shreds. He gets to their exposed flanks and he's gone. And as Jaws explained, this also is what causes AJ to get so open the majority of the time--D is over-committing at the wrong time(s) in order to pursue AF or BT.

But we were kicking ass in the passing game with Chris Brown as our "feature" back.

GP
06-29-2012, 12:07 PM
But we were kicking ass in the passing game with Chris Brown as our "feature" back.

Wait a second. Now TK, exactly how long was Chris Brown a feature back here?

There was Ahman Green, then Slaton dazzled in 2008 IIRC, but Chris Brown was never a feature back. Role-playing backup and/or 3rd down guy who throws ****ty halfback passes? Yes. Feature back??? LOL.

The times when Ahman was healthy, he was decent. Slaton was pretty good in 2008 and then things fell apart in 2009. 2010 and 2011 was AF's monster years.

HoustonFrog
06-29-2012, 12:08 PM
Yep. Vick & Flacco over Schaub? No thanks. Tony Romo? Great talent, but that guy single-handedly loses games (w/help of Garrett). And Stafford worse than Schaub and the guys mentioned above? (Hey Detroit, wanna trade?)

We've been pass based and rush first based -- which gives us some nice flexibility & makes it tougher to game-plan against. We'll never be the Saints O.

Romo has the second highest career passer rating in history right now. And while he hasn't won anything big and has made mistakes what do you call Schaub throwing late game picks to lose multiple games? I've been hard on both guys at times but I've learned you can't look at that stuff in a vaccuum because it will drive you crazy.

GP
06-29-2012, 12:11 PM
Romo has the second highest career passer rating in history right now. I'd while he hasn't won anything big and has made mistakes what do you call Schaub throwing late game picks to lose multiple games. I've been hard on both guys at times but I've learned you can't look at that stuff in a vaccuum because it will drive you crazy.

With the exception of maybe this past year or two, Romo had been known as a guy who starts hot and fades (drastically) at the end of each season. I know because I play fantasy football, and I would never draft Romo because he was a heartbreaker at the end of the season when you needed fantasy points reliably and consistently from the QB.

Sure, he'd boost your fantasy team the first half of the season and things looked splendid, then it dropped off considerably due to interceptions, fumbled snaps, traveling northeast for the winter portion of the schedule.

However, he has recently been much more consistent from start to finish. The thing that hurts him is that defense. He's always playing from behind.

HoustonFrog
06-29-2012, 12:48 PM
With the exception of maybe this past year or two, Romo had been known as a guy who starts hot and fades (drastically) at the end of each season. I know because I play fantasy football, and I would never draft Romo because he was a heartbreaker at the end of the season when you needed fantasy points reliably and consistently from the QB.

Sure, he'd boost your fantasy team the first half of the season and things looked splendid, then it dropped off considerably due to interceptions, fumbled snaps, traveling northeast for the winter portion of the schedule.

However, he has recently been much more consistent from start to finish. The thing that hurts him is that defense. He's always playing from behind.


Last year was one of his best and most complete years but the D could never hold leads once they made up deficits or they would squander early leads. He had 2 brainfart games where he contributed with ints but overall I thought he "got it" more than some other years...see SF game. I hope he gets it more this year. Some people like Staubach have come out and said that he deserves more respect and that the pressure is big but that he should be able to do more if they fix the D, etc. I also think he gets a bum rap at times despite a horrible O line in years past. When I traveled to Minnesota to watch the playoff game a few years back it was laughable how badly he was running for his life. Even with late game things in the past I don't think you get up on some of these lists unless your doing things right.

eriadoc
06-29-2012, 12:57 PM
Wait a second. Now TK, exactly how long was Chris Brown a feature back here?

Just as an aside that should factor into your thinking on this issue, a couple seasons ago, with Foster at RB, the Texans couldn't score more than 7 points in the first half for a majority of the season. The result was they had to open up the offense and pass like crazy in the second half when the other team wasn't all that concerned about the run. Many of the yards that Foster racked up in his first season were set up by the pass. Last year was a reversal from that.

I just think they are a balanced team that can go either way. They don't always have a balance, but they can be balanced if they play their game.

GP
06-29-2012, 01:34 PM
Last year was one of his best and most complete years but the D could never hold leads once they made up deficits or they would squander early leads. He had 2 brainfart games where he contributed with ints but overall I thought he "got it" more than some other years...see SF game. I hope he gets it more this year. Some people like Staubach have come out and said that he deserves more respect and that the pressure is big but that he should be able to do more if they fix the D, etc. I also think he gets a bum rap at times despite a horrible O line in years past. When I traveled to Minnesota to watch the playoff game a few years back it was laughable how badly he was running for his life. Even with late game things in the past I don't think you get up on some of these lists unless your doing things right.

He's a positive guy, too, which hurts his street cred in the realm of fandom. When guys like Brady are incensed and pouting if they lost, Romo is smiling and being deflective about "who should get the blame."

Ultimately, I just wonder if he's too nice of a guy to fit on Jerry's team. Jerry is not exactly the fuzziest, warmest guy in the room. Still, Romo has survived it all and still gets the nod as QB1...but I was really thinking Jerry would have made a huge move for a new QB--be it Weeden or Tannehill or even RGIII.

If Jerry can get the defense and the o-line playing constantly good, Romo can be a great QB. Patience with Romo might reward Jerry if other things go well.

Romo is almost like a Tebow guy but in a more sincere fashion. And can actually pass the ball. LOL.

infantrycak
06-29-2012, 01:51 PM
To me, a great play-action pass game (which is what Schaub is known for, and by which Kubiak loves to create mismatches--as Jaws said) is achieved only if the defense respects the run 100%.

Of course a defense is still going to attack what they think is a run play at the snap, but then we have levels of commitment that come into play: How hard does the D bite on that fake, what resources/personnel do they over-commit to stopping the anticipated run play, etc.? Does it cause the D players to have mental pause at all the wrong times throughout a game?

Put Donald Brown back there as Texans RB and I don't think, over the course of a season, that this team would pass very efficiently.

You look like you aren't even a Texans fan when you say stuff like this. It might be excusable as conventional wisdom but when your team led the league is passing yards and receiving yards with NO rushing attack then the above becomes ridiculous.

thunderkyss
06-29-2012, 02:27 PM
Last year was one of his best and most complete years but the D could never hold leads once they made up deficits or they would squander early leads.

If they could run the ball, you wouldn't have that problem. Romo was fantasy Gold when he had the Julius Jones/Marion Barber 1-2 punch. But Jerrah outsmarted himself, paid Barber, let Julius walk..... long story short, their run game hasn't been the same since.

Demarco Murray came in & it looked like the Cowboys couldn't lose. Romo was gold again... Murray got hurt, defense looked suspect....



I'm not saying you're wrong, their D needs help. The run game would help as well.

76Texan
06-29-2012, 06:01 PM
I agree that ideally the team is a balanced attack. However, last year due to the Schaub and then Leonard injury the team turned to 5th rook to play qb. As a result I think Kubes was forced to rush more than he wanted to protect Yates.

One of the things with the Denver system is that they ran it for years witha passer and didn't really get anywhere. It was only when a quality passer was combined with a quality rusher that they finally won the sb. After years Kubes finally has a quality rusher and passer. He can finally run that balanced attack he has wanted for so long.

Totally agree with that. At the end of the day though, Kubiak is a former NFL QB and known as a QB guru. He is not setting up a system to be an unbalanced rushing attack. Schaub and AJ led the passing and receiving yards in a year we had zero rushing attack. People keep making this rushing assertion and we are not and have never been and never will be (under Kubiak) a power rush it down your throat and only pass in desperation kind of team.

It's not a simple task to determine what kind of an offense the Texans really had.

There are factors that vary from year to year.

For example, when you are more often behind, your team will throw the ball more.

The health of your starting QB (as well as some of your other key players) may alter the game plan a little in a few particular games.

The defenses that you face. One year, you may face more teams that are better at defending the pass (and not as good defending the run); so you run the ball a little more.

...

Having say that, let's move on and isolate the 2011 season.
The Texans RBs actually averaged some 4 more carries per game without Schaub.
The notion that Kubiak was forced to run ball more with Yates is simply not true.
(Whether you count the final game of the season or not, the Texans averaged roughly 29 rushing attempts by the RBs without Schaub whereas they averaged about 34 with Schaub).

Schaub averaged just slightly little more than 29 pass attempts per game.
So did Yates (almost). Don't forget that one needs to take into consideration sacks and QB scrambles as he tried to execute a passing play.

The same thing would result if you also account for the play-off games.
All the while, Yates faced better defenses (and pass defenses) overall than Schaub.

infantrycak
06-29-2012, 06:10 PM
It's not a simple task to determine what kind of an offense the Texans really had.

There are factors that vary from year to year.

For example, when you are more often behind, your team will throw the ball more.

No it isn't, Yes there are, Never said they didn't.

All I am saying is Kubiak wants a running game. That is different from being a run first team..

Texans_Chick
06-30-2012, 08:58 AM
No it isn't, Yes there are, Never said they didn't.

All I am saying is Kubiak wants a running game. That is different from being a run first team..

Infantrycak wins the thread.

None of this is rocket science. Kubiak says what he means. He wants a balanced offense. The best case scenario of games is to crush teams in the first half finding mismatches. Then run it down team's throats in the second half after amassing a big lead and having the defense pinning its ears back killing the opponent that has to throw to get back into the game.

Dennison was amazed that Kubiak could get effective play action without a functional running game before he arrived. But that is not ideal. A more balanced offense puts more pressure on defenses.

The Bronco teams that ended up winning finally got less one dimensional by getting Elway a running game to keep defenses off balance, and their Super Bowl years had a good defense.

DocBar
06-30-2012, 08:59 AM
I would say that we're an OL first offense. Excluding obvious passing situations, the success of the passing game relies on play action and the OL selling the run at the snap. That, to me, is one of the greatest assets of this offense. When the OL is working great, defenses have a very hard time determining run or pass because the 1st 1-2 seconds(a long time in an NFL play) tend to look identical and it freezes LB's and safeties for those critical 1-2 seconds. That shows itself in games where the oppossing defense has superior talent in the interior DL. The OL tends to struggle and the rest of the offense falls off with it. Last years game against the Raiders and the regular season Baltimore game highlighted this IMO. Kubiak was slow to adjust in the regular season, but made the proper changes in the playoff game against the Ravens.

As goes the OL, so goes the rest of the offense, to a large degree.

thunderkyss
06-30-2012, 09:14 AM
When the OL is working great, defenses have a very hard time determining run or pass because the 1st 1-2 seconds(a long time in an NFL play) tend to look identical and it freezes LB's and safeties for those critical 1-2 seconds.

That's true. But if you've got a home run threat in the backfield like Foster & Tate, you don't just freeze LBs & Safeties. You suck them in, leaving huge holes in the defense.

When the commentator says, "How does Andre continue to get so wide open?"

There was a lot of suck on that play caused by the OL doing their job, Schaub doing his job, and Foster & Tate being Foster & Tate.

DocBar
06-30-2012, 09:23 AM
That's true. But if you've got a home run threat in the backfield like Foster & Tate, you don't just freeze LBs & Safeties. You suck them in, leaving huge holes in the defense.

When the commentator says, "How does Andre continue to get so wide open?"

There was a lot of suck on that play caused by the OL doing their job, Schaub doing his job, and Foster & Tate being Foster & Tate.:handshake: It's a team sport and takes all facets working together to be successful. IMO, that all starts with the OL executing. None of the "skill" positions look nearly as "skilled" when they don't.

Goatcheese
06-30-2012, 12:11 PM
A straight run/pass% analysis doesn't really tell the story of what an offense wants to do or is good at doing.

A crappy team that is always down by 20 points is going to throw a lot. A team that is always in the lead is generally going to run more (unless they simply can't run: late 2k's Colts).

I remember reading a mid-season story in the paper that said the Texans ran their average play with a lead of somewhere around 4.5 (highest in the NFL at the time). When you're always in the lead and trying to kill clock, you're going to run more that if you were always playing catchup. It doesn't mean that would be your ideal run/pass balance in a close game. I don't have all of my excel files in front of me, but I seem to remember the Texans throwing more than running in situations where the game was +-3 points in the first 3 quarters.

DocBar
06-30-2012, 01:47 PM
A straight run/pass% analysis doesn't really tell the story of what an offense wants to do or is good at doing.

A crappy team that is always down by 20 points is going to throw a lot. A team that is always in the lead is generally going to run more (unless they simply can't run: late 2k's Colts).

I remember reading a mid-season story in the paper that said the Texans ran their average play with a lead of somewhere around 4.5 (highest in the NFL at the time). When you're always in the lead and trying to kill clock, you're going to run more that if you were always playing catchup. It doesn't mean that would be your ideal run/pass balance in a close game. I don't have all of my excel files in front of me, but I seem to remember the Texans throwing more than running in situations where the game was +-3 points in the first 3 quarters.I would like to see that spreadsheet. I am inclined to say that Kubiak will get even more run-oriented in a close game to prevent negative plays (sacks, sack/strips,INT's) in a close game and pick his spots for pass plays. Kubiak is known to stick to a balanced attack even when the running game is doing poorly.

thunderkyss
06-30-2012, 02:30 PM
I would like to see that spreadsheet. I am inclined to say that Kubiak will get even more run-oriented in a close game to prevent negative plays (sacks, sack/strips,INT's) in a close game and pick his spots for pass plays. Kubiak is known to stick to a balanced attack even when the running game is doing poorly.

If I knew better, I'd be a head coach myself. But I don't understand why Kubiak gives up on the run so easily. At least it appears to me that he gives up too easy.

If we're down by 10 points, we're going to air the ball out, regardless how affective the run game is. Arian Foster ran for over 100 yards in the first half of the Baltimore play-off game. Second half, less than 30.

It was a long time ago, but my memory has me believing we were throwing the ball on almost every snap. I remember pulling my hair out. Literally.

Maybe Baltimore... the third best defense in the league stopped our run game. Maybe they made adjustments & had our number. I don't know. But I felt he gave up, too early, again.

Goatcheese
06-30-2012, 03:28 PM
I would like to see that spreadsheet.

Source - Official NFL statistics

situational passing breakdown
Points Margin -------0-7---8-14---15+
Schaub---------------111---122---59
Leinart---------------13------0------0
Yates-----------------104----0-----30
Delhomme-----------28-----0-----0

Total------------------256---122---89

Situational rushing breakdown (doesn't include QB rushes)
Foster---------------143----43-----92
Tate-----------------67-----28-----80
Ward----------------12-----0------33
Slaton---------------20-----2------2

Total----------------242----73-----207

It does seem off that Yates has no 8-14 point passes. :headscratcher:

Edit - some of the numbers don't add up with the other numbers I have. I'll post the lead by/trail by numbers later if I get a chance.

Edit 2 -

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i174/SchoonPK/TexansSituational.png

So, 83 more passes when leading close, 60 more passes when trailing close, 10 fewer passes when tied.

DocBar
06-30-2012, 04:29 PM
The leading close/behind close stats make sense since the team is trying to extend a lead or close the gap. Nice breakdown.

76Texan
07-01-2012, 10:10 AM
If I knew better, I'd be a head coach myself. But I don't understand why Kubiak gives up on the run so easily. At least it appears to me that he gives up too easy.

If we're down by 10 points, we're going to air the ball out, regardless how affective the run game is. Arian Foster ran for over 100 yards in the first half of the Baltimore play-off game. Second half, less than 30.

It was a long time ago, but my memory has me believing we were throwing the ball on almost every snap. I remember pulling my hair out. Literally.

Maybe Baltimore... the third best defense in the league stopped our run game. Maybe they made adjustments & had our number. I don't know. But I felt he gave up, too early, again.

Nah, up until the last two drives (starting with 2:52 left in the game), Foster ran 27 times while Yates attempted 28 passes.

7 of those attempts (with one incompletion) were to the RBs (Foster and Tate) and they were like extensions of the run.

With 2:52 left, leading by 7, the Ravens played two-deep safeties.
On the Texans next-to-last drive, they didn't really play prevent defense; but they played soft (with the safeteis way back).
The Texans were in one-back set; still it makes sense for Yates to go to AJ on consecutive intermediate completions (as the safeties played back).
It was on the third play where Yates became greedy and forced the ball long into double coverage.

At any rate, the point is that Kubiak did not give up on the running game.

GP
07-01-2012, 10:16 AM
I would say that we're an OL first offense. Excluding obvious passing situations, the success of the passing game relies on play action and the OL selling the run at the snap. That, to me, is one of the greatest assets of this offense. When the OL is working great, defenses have a very hard time determining run or pass because the 1st 1-2 seconds(a long time in an NFL play) tend to look identical and it freezes LB's and safeties for those critical 1-2 seconds. That shows itself in games where the oppossing defense has superior talent in the interior DL. The OL tends to struggle and the rest of the offense falls off with it. Last years game against the Raiders and the regular season Baltimore game highlighted this IMO. Kubiak was slow to adjust in the regular season, but made the proper changes in the playoff game against the Ravens.

As goes the OL, so goes the rest of the offense, to a large degree.

I was going to mention this facet of the team, since it's been mentioned recently by others...glad you brought this issue up.

Yes, the OL might be the real key here. If the OL is clicking...anything works. When it's struggling...everything struggles.

Throw in a rookie QB who was playing scout team, in a lockout shortened season, and it complicates things whether the OL is doing well or not.

Getting Schaub back, a GOOD Schaub by the way, and our OL performing well--THAT is the key. If that happens, it doesn't matter who our WR2 or WR3 is. Well, sort of. But still.

76Texan
07-01-2012, 10:29 AM
*double post

76Texan
07-01-2012, 10:30 AM
No it isn't, Yes there are, Never said they didn't.

All I am saying is Kubiak wants a running game. That is different from being a run first team..

I wasn't disagreeing with you ICAK; I was disagreeing with dopplergang.

infantrycak
07-01-2012, 10:35 AM
I wasn't disagreeing with you ICAK; I was disagreeing with dopplergang.

I was very short in that post but wasn't disagreeing with you either. I feel we are designed to be a balanced attack team capable of doing either as needed. Situation will dictate how much one or the other gets used.

The folks I disagree with are those who say the Texans are built to be a rushing team.

76Texan
07-01-2012, 10:39 AM
A straight run/pass% analysis doesn't really tell the story of what an offense wants to do or is good at doing.

A crappy team that is always down by 20 points is going to throw a lot. A team that is always in the lead is generally going to run more (unless they simply can't run: late 2k's Colts).

I remember reading a mid-season story in the paper that said the Texans ran their average play with a lead of somewhere around 4.5 (highest in the NFL at the time). When you're always in the lead and trying to kill clock, you're going to run more that if you were always playing catchup. It doesn't mean that would be your ideal run/pass balance in a close game. I don't have all of my excel files in front of me, but I seem to remember the Texans throwing more than running in situations where the game was +-3 points in the first 3 quarters.

You're saying some of the things I said.

However, there are more to numbers than just a lead.

It also depends on other factors.

I have a bunch of playbooks by different teams.
In one of them, the offensive team charts the tendency of the defensive team on every down and distance.
This is another tool that a team use to formulate a game plan against a certain opponent.

Then they start the game with a certain number of scripted plays (let's say 25) to check that tendency. If it stays true, they continue with the game plan' otherwise, they adjust.

76Texan
07-01-2012, 10:43 AM
I was very short in that post but wasn't disagreeing with you either. I feel we are designed to be a balanced attack team capable of doing either as needed. Situation will dictate how much one or the other gets used.

The folks I disagree with are those who say the Texans are built to be a rushing team.

I didn't think you were disagreeing with me either.

And as you said, situations will dictate the game plan and any adjustment necessary.
I rewatched a couple of games: Colts week 1 and Raiders.
I'll bring them up to clarify a few points (not to you, but to others).

76Texan
07-01-2012, 10:49 AM
In week 1 vs. the Colts, the Texans started the game with 11 running plays and 9 passing plays to go up by 17.

They continued with the game plan with 18 rushing attempts and 17 passing attempts to double the lead.

It was only then when they switched to the run game to kill the clock.

GP
07-01-2012, 10:50 AM
If this team were to only run the ball OR pass the ball....

Which would do better???

Who here thinks we have a Colts/Saints offense designed to pass, pass, pass and score lots of points...then toss the occasional sweep to a RB or an occasional RB draw?

Who here thinks we have a Giants/Steelers offense designed to run and compliment with the pass with lots of TE action and the one extraordinary WR who is a deep threat?

You can strive to "be" anything you want. What ARE you, though, at the end of the day? We're a team who runs the ball so freaking beautifully that the passing game is a token byproduct of the run game. And the OL, beginning with Myers, is the key to that.

infantrycak
07-01-2012, 10:57 AM
You can strive to "be" anything you want. What ARE you, though, at the end of the day? We're a team who runs the ball so freaking beautifully that the passing game is a token byproduct of the run game. And the OL, beginning with Myers, is the key to that.

Which is why we led the league in passing and receiving with NO RUSHING GAME.

Token is beyond ridiculous. It is what came on first. 9140 yards in two seasons is not token.

76Texan
07-01-2012, 11:13 AM
Against the Raiders, a team that was known to be mediocre at defending the run, one would expect the Texans would at least run as much as they did in 2010.

However, thie year, the Raiders were determined to stop the Texans running game. They played mostly single safety, and even zero coverage to bring more men into the box.

The Texans ran the ball 16 times and passed the ball 21 times in the first half.
Then they started the second half with roughly the same distribution (7 runs and 10 pass attempts) as the Raiders continued with their defensive game plan and forged ahead by 8 with 10 minutes to go in the 4th.

It was only then that the Texans switched full gear to the passing game.

The Texans tried to stay with the running game for as long as possible even though it wasn't working.

With the Raiders going 3 and out twice, the Texans controlled the ball for almost 9 minutes (of the 10 minutes remained in the game.)
The lone rushing attempt by Foster in the last 3 drives resulted in a net loss of 4 yards.

In fact, a case could be made for the Texans to throw a few more times in the first 3 quarters given the defensive game plan by the Raiders.

76Texan
07-01-2012, 11:15 AM
If this team were to only run the ball OR pass the ball....

Which would do better???

Who here thinks we have a Colts/Saints offense designed to pass, pass, pass and score lots of points...then toss the occasional sweep to a RB or an occasional RB draw?

Who here thinks we have a Giants/Steelers offense designed to run and compliment with the pass with lots of TE action and the one extraordinary WR who is a deep threat?

You can strive to "be" anything you want. What ARE you, though, at the end of the day? We're a team who runs the ball so freaking beautifully that the passing game is a token byproduct of the run game. And the OL, beginning with Myers, is the key to that.

See the Raiders game that I just recapped.

Lucky
07-01-2012, 12:06 PM
In fact, a case could be made for the Texans to throw a few more times in the first 3 quarters given the defensive game plan by the Raiders.
The passing game (sans Andre Johnson) wasn't working either. Schaub was 1-11 with a game ending interception when trying to connect with Jacoby Jones.

thunderkyss
07-01-2012, 12:09 PM
Nah, up until the last two drives (starting with 2:52 left in the game), Foster ran 27 times while Yates attempted 28 passes.

At any rate, the point is that Kubiak did not give up on the running game.

With 12:29 left in the 4th, Foster would only carry the ball twice for the rest of the game. The score was 17-13 Baltimore.

After the missed field goal by Rackers, we got the ball back with 13:30 on the clock. Foster carried the ball three times back to back. 6 yards, 7 yards, then 1 yard. We then passed for two consecutive times, then punted.

We got the ball back, same score, 17-13 Baltimore with 9:34 on the clock. A pass to Dre for 19 yards, a Screen to Foster, losing 7 yards. A run by Foster picking up 2 yards, the fumble, Jacoby picks it up. 3rd & 12..... int.

They score a field goal. we get the ball back with 2:44 to go. Two big passes, we get to the Balt38. We go for the bomb again..... INT.

Of course we've got to pass now, 0:45 left in the game, 4 straight passes..... game over.

I don't know. We ran the ball 4 times in the 4th Qtr & the score wasn't really a factor until the last 3 minutes. Even if take out the last 4 passes, that's 8 passes to 4 runs... far as I can tell, we finished the game with 2 timeouts left.

76Texan
07-01-2012, 12:38 PM
The passing game (sans Andre Johnson) wasn't working either. Schaub was 1-11 with a game ending interception when trying to connect with Jacoby Jones.

Foster and Chris O ran the ball 24 times for 70 yards.
That's less than 3 ypc.

Schaub atttempted 51 passes for a net of 403 yards; that's nearly 8 ypa.

I don't see how you can say that the passing game wasn't working, despite JJ (and the rest of the guys for that matter.)
It's not Schaub's fault that some of the passes were dropped.
It wasn't just JJ.
Vickers, for example, also dropped a sure TD when he was wide-open.

76Texan
07-01-2012, 12:48 PM
I don't know. We ran the ball 4 times in the 4th Qtr & the score wasn't really a factor until the last 3 minutes. Even if take out the last 4 passes, that's 8 passes to 4 runs... far as I can tell, we finished the game with 2 timeouts left.

Come on TK, you're trivializing things a little too much.

4th Qtr
Ravens led 17-13

Houston Texans at 13:30
1-10-HST 20 (13:30) A.Foster right guard to HST 26 for 6 yards (R.Lewis).
2-4-HST 26 (13:01) A.Foster right guard to HST 33 for 7 yards (L.Webb). R13
1-10-HST 33 (12:29) A.Foster right guard to HST 34 for 1 yard (B.McKinney).
2-9-HST 34 (11:54) T.Yates pass incomplete short left to B.Tate.
3-9-HST 34 (11:48) (Shotgun) T.Yates pass short right to K.Walter to HST 40 for 6 yards (B.Pollard).
4-3-HST 40 (11:16) (Punt formation) M.Turk punts 35 yards to BLT 25, Center-J.Weeks, out of bounds.

That's 3 runs and then a quick throw to Tate (which TJ short-armed for an incompletion). Then it was 3rd and 9; a pass to Walter isn't out of line here.

Houston Texans at 9:34
1-10-HST 31 (9:34) T.Yates pass deep right to A.Johnson to HST 50 for 19 yards (L.Webb). P14
1-10-HST 50 (8:57) T.Yates pass short left to A.Foster to HST 43 for -7 yards (R.Lewis).
2-17-HST 43 (8:11) (Shotgun) A.Foster up the middle to HST 45 for 2 yards (H.Ngata). FUMBLES (H.Ngata), recovered by HSTJ.
Jones at HST 48. J.Jones to HST 48 for no gain (R.Lewis).
3-12-HST 48 (7:28) (Shotgun) T.Yates pass deep middle intended for K.Walter INTERCEPTED by L.Webb at BLT 29. L.Webb
to BLT 29 for no gain (K.Walter).

A pass to AJ followed by a pass to Foster (which is basically a run).
Then a run by Foster even though it was 2nd and 17.
And finally a pass attempt to Walter on 3rd and 12.
I don't see anybody abandonning the run.

Then the Ravens went up by a TD with 2:52 to go, playing soft like I already described; there was nothing wrong with switching to the pass in that situation with the defense they were playing.

ckhouston
07-01-2012, 01:34 PM
Which is why we led the league in passing and receiving with NO RUSHING GAME.

Token is beyond ridiculous. It is what came on first. 9140 yards in two seasons is not token.

Lets just go back to the beginning and bash Carr and Capers if you are going to continue to insist on bringing up the past to try and prove a point that has no merit. We are a run first team NOW. Watch the games sparky.

DBCooper
07-01-2012, 01:46 PM
Lets just go back to the beginning and bash Carr and Capers if you are going to continue to insist on bringing up the past to try and prove a point that has no merit. We are a run first team NOW. Watch the games sparky.

Who's bringing up the past?

We were a run first team LAST year because we had a sh$tty quarterback.

Now that Schaub is back we will see what kind of team we are.

And cak may be a lot of things, but sparky is not what I'd call him.

infantrycak
07-01-2012, 01:54 PM
Lets just go back to the beginning and bash Carr and Capers if you are going to continue to insist on bringing up the past to try and prove a point that has no merit. We are a run first team NOW. Watch the games sparky.

You try watching the games. Run first teams don't go for 4000 yards passing.

How about that sparky? Name all the run first teams that go for 4000 yds passing three years in a row (last year on pace until Schaub went down)?

You have no freaking clue. Want to see a run first team? - look at the early 90's Cowboys. Aikman's top year ever was 3300 yds not 4770.

Last year with a rookie starting a third of the season the passing game still outscored the rushing game.

76Texan
07-01-2012, 02:08 PM
You try watching the games. Run first teams don't go for 4000 yards passing.

How about that sparky? Name all the run first teams that go for 4000 yds passing three years in a row (last year on pace until Schaub went down)?

You have no freaking clue. Want to see a run first team? - look at the early 90's Cowboys. Aikman's top year ever was 3300 yds not 4770.

Last year with a rookie starting a third of the season the passing game still outscored the rushing game.

We ran the ball more, but it doesn't mean that we were a run-first team.

A couple of reasons why we ran more was because (1) we played against more teams with poor run defense and (2) we had more games with a lead (big lead at that).

JB
07-01-2012, 02:21 PM
Lets just go back to the beginning and bash Carr and Capers if you are going to continue to insist on bringing up the past to try and prove a point that has no merit. We are a run first team NOW. Watch the games sparky.

Have you watched any games besides 2011 slick?

thunderkyss
07-01-2012, 02:52 PM
Who's bringing up the past?

We were a run first team LAST year because we had a sh$tty quarterback.

Now that Schaub is back we will see what kind of team we are.


Even with Tj, Kubiak tried to be balanced. If ever we were not balanced, it wasn't for lack of effort.

DBCooper
07-01-2012, 02:56 PM
Even with Tj, Kubiak tried to be balanced. If ever we were not balanced, it wasn't for lack of effort.

You're right tk, I just don't see this as a "run-first" team with Schaub in there.

GP
07-01-2012, 03:20 PM
We ran the ball more, but it doesn't mean that we were a run-first team.

A couple of reasons why we ran more was because (1) we played against more teams with poor run defense and (2) we had more games with a lead (big lead at that).

I'll say it again, because I think we're getting mixed up (all of us) on semantics.

The analysts are all agreeing--Kuharsky, Kiper, Jaworski--that THE bread and butter of this team is (drum roll please) the ZBS run game. As it goes, so goes the rest of the offense.

This doesn't need to break down into whether we "want" to be balanced, we "are" balanced, or whether we're "run first" or not. It doesn't have to be an argument about whether this team is one way WITH Schaub or another way without him. It doesn't have to depend on stats that show how we run, when we run, and how we pass and when we pass (though the stats GoatCheese provide are very nice to peruse).

At the end of the day, what do you see the Texans as: A great running team with a good pass game....or a great passing team with a good run game? The Colts never hurt defenses with their pure running attack...the RBs, if they got anything, it was always predicated upon Manning exploiting a defense's tendency to play the pass too much. Same with the Saints--Play the pass too heavily against Brees, and BAM! it's a sweep to Sproles and he's around the edge for 6.

It's not enough to say we're balanced. You guys/gals truly believe that our pass game is equal, all things considered, to the run game? I don't.

If a defense against us was only allowed to play straight-up D--no blitzes and no stacking the box--would the Texans wear out that opposing defense with the passing game? No. But our run game...it would get Foster (and Foster would get himself) to the next level every time. I know that's a bit of a stretch example, but still.

Teams respect our passing game, They FEAR our running game.

infantrycak
07-01-2012, 04:18 PM
I'll say it again, because I think we're getting mixed up (all of us) on semantics.

Teams respect our passing game, They FEAR our running game.

It isn't semantics.

2007 - 11th passing, 22nd rushing.
2008 - 4th passing, 13th rushing.
2009 - 1st passing, 30th rushing.
2010 - 4th passing, 7th rushing.
2011 - 16th passing (damn no Schaub for a third of the season), 2nd rushing.

You can call it semantics (why is it people who want to use that term are almost always throwing it out dismissively? anyway) but the Kubiak Texans have never been a run first team. He's a freaking QB.

Being successful isn't the same thing as design. They spent 2 2nds and $50 mil on Schaub and no pick on Foster.

ckhouston
07-01-2012, 04:44 PM
Have you watched any games besides 2011 slick?

Does anything but 2011 matter ... slick?

Its 2012 there kiddo, welcome to the present.

ckhouston
07-01-2012, 04:47 PM
It isn't semantics.

2007 - 11th passing, 22nd rushing.
2008 - 4th passing, 13th rushing.
2009 - 1st passing, 30th rushing.
2010 - 4th passing, 7th rushing.
2011 - 16th passing (damn no Schaub for a third of the season), 2nd rushing.

You can call it semantics (why is it people who want to use that term are almost always throwing it out dismissively? anyway) but the Kubiak Texans have never been a run first team. He's a freaking QB.

Being successful isn't the same thing as design. They spent 2 2nds and $50 mil on Schaub and no pick on Foster.

After this season is over you will look foolish ... football wise. I am sure you are very edumucated on basket weaving, knitting, and parades for alternative lifestyles.

Lucky
07-01-2012, 06:16 PM
Foster and Chris O ran the ball 24 times for 70 yards.
That's less than 3 ypc.

Schaub atttempted 51 passes for a net of 403 yards; that's nearly 8 ypa.

I don't see how you can say that the passing game wasn't working, despite JJ (and the rest of the guys for that matter.)
I think you have to see the game, rather than the stats. The Texans passed 2X the number of rushes, yet you are saying they didn't pass enough? And passing ypa will always be greater than rushing yards per attempt. The Texans hit on 3 big pass plays to get a big chunk of that yardage. And only came away with 10 points off those plays. It was a poor offensive showing all around, but it was the negative plays in the passing game (ints & sacks) that kept the Raiders in the game, and eventually lost the game for the Texans.

DBCooper
07-01-2012, 06:20 PM
After this season is over you will look like the fool you are. Football wise. i am sure you are very edumucated on basket weaving, knitting, and parades for alternative lifestyles.

Well, we sure are fortunate that we have you to show us the truth, because no one besides you seems to understand the complexities of football.

Do you have any real friends? (I'm serious)

ObsiWan
07-01-2012, 07:39 PM
As long as we're a score early and often offense, I don't care which is the chicken or which is the egg...


...can we PLEEEEASE git some futball around here?!?!
:pissed:

We're running out of real stuff to argue about!!
:barman:

thunderkyss
07-01-2012, 07:46 PM
At the end of the day, what do you see the Texans as: A great running team with a good pass game....or a great passing team with a good run game?

I'm going with option C) a great offense.

JB
07-01-2012, 07:49 PM
Does anything but 2011 matter ... slick?

Its 2012 there kiddo, welcome to the present.

kiddo?


ooh how witty you are!

Texn4life
07-01-2012, 08:22 PM
I know this for certain that when Schaub is healthy we almost always open up games throwing the ball quite a bit on our opening drive or 2. Someone may know where to find the ratio on this but Kubiak loves to come out putting the ball in the air. Is this passing to set up the run? I'm not sure, nut one could certainly make that argument.

The Pencil Neck
07-01-2012, 08:42 PM
I know this for certain that when Schaub is healthy we almost always open up games throwing the ball quite a bit on our opening drive or 2. Someone may know where to find the ratio on this but Kubiak loves to come out putting the ball in the air. Is this passing to set up the run? I'm not sure, nut one could certainly make that argument.

In the games that Schaub started last year...

In 7 of the games, our first 10 plays were split 5-5 between run and pass. Against the Steelers, we ran 6 times in the first 10 plays; against the Ravens and Buccs, we threw 6 times in the first 10 plays.

7 of the 10 games started with a pass being the first play. 5 of the 10 games started with the first 2 plays being passes. Against the Titans and Jags, our first two plays were rushes. In the first two plays overall, we have 13 passes to 7 rushes.

It's interesting to me that the Buccs, and (iirc) the Ravens, had talked a lot the week before the game about how they were going to stop the run. And then we came out passing.

So, yeah. I could see how you could get the feeling that Kubiak likes to come out airing the ball out. He does throw a lot in the first 2 plays of the game but after 10 plays, it normally balances out.

Texn4life
07-01-2012, 09:07 PM
In the games that Schaub started last year...

In 7 of the games, our first 10 plays were split 5-5 between run and pass. Against the Steelers, we ran 6 times in the first 10 plays; against the Ravens and Buccs, we threw 6 times in the first 10 plays.

7 of the 10 games started with a pass being the first play. 5 of the 10 games started with the first 2 plays being passes. Against the Titans and Jags, our first two plays were rushes. In the first two plays overall, we have 13 passes to 7 rushes.

It's interesting to me that the Buccs, and (iirc) the Ravens, had talked a lot the week before the game about how they were going to stop the run. And then we came out passing.

So, yeah. I could see how you could get the feeling that Kubiak likes to come out airing the ball out. He does throw a lot in the first 2 plays of the game but after 10 plays, it normally balances out.

That's kind of been Kubiak's MO since Schaub has been here to open up the game throwing the ball. Like you put in your post though it seems to balance out after the first few plays.

It used to drive me nuts in 2010 when Arian was just shredding teams up, but I also thought there was a method to his madness because Arian would seem to get stronger late in the games. I can't remember hardly any games in 2010 when we came out running the ball early. Again, this is based purely on my memory so I could be wrong. At the end of the day though, the balance always seems to be there when we have an efficient running game whether it was with Slaton, or Foster/Tate.

drs23
07-02-2012, 08:48 AM
Foster and Chris O ran the ball 24 times for 70 yards.
That's less than 3 ypc.

Schaub atttempted 51 passes for a net of 403 yards; that's nearly 8 ypa.

I don't see how you can say that the passing game wasn't working, despite JJ (and the rest of the guys for that matter.)
It's not Schaub's fault that some of the passes were dropped.
It wasn't just JJ.
Vickers, for example, also dropped a sure TD when he was wide-open.

Yeah, that made my heart sink. No defender within15 yds and the goal line straight ahead. That cost us the game right there. I had a sick feeling in my gut.

GP
07-02-2012, 08:55 AM
Kubiak opens with passing game because defenses are keying on the run.

They've got Arian Foster on their mind all week leading up to the game against us. They've got Foster on their mind Sunday breakfast. And in the locker room. And during warmups. And during the national anthem.

So you go with a few passes right off the bat...because they're anticipating Foster.

Then the run game. Then the play action. Then AJ or OD. And soon, the defense doesn't know what to defend.

HoustonFrog
07-02-2012, 09:01 AM
It's only Monday morning but I think ckhouston's next nicknames(post-"kiddo" above) for Cak are going to be either "braugh" or "coolguy." Could be wrong..just saying.

otisbean
07-02-2012, 09:25 AM
It's only Monday morning but I think ckhouston's next nicknames(post-"kiddo" above) for Cak are going to be either "braugh" or "coolguy." Could be wrong..just saying.

I'm laying 2/1 odds on either sport, broham, or friendo

JB
07-02-2012, 10:13 AM
I'm laying 2/1 odds on either sport, broham, or friendo

I'm going with Chief...

ChampionTexan
07-02-2012, 10:20 AM
I'm going with Chief...

I'll throw in Skippy as a dark horse candidate.

Playoffs
07-02-2012, 10:38 AM
I'll throw in Skippy as a dark horse candidate.
My money is on homefries or homeskillet.

BullBlitz
07-02-2012, 10:50 AM
I don't think that they have been a run-first team at all. I honestly can't remember the specific games last season, but there was a loss or two in which many of us thought "Why the heck is Foster watching the game from the sideline while Gary is stubbornly sticking with a weak passing offense?"

I agree with those who think that Gary will pass first if at all possible.

JB
07-02-2012, 10:52 AM
My money is on homefries or homeskillet.

Can't see it... but homie is a possibility

ckhouston
07-02-2012, 11:07 AM
Brah isn't a bad option, although I am leaning toward Cakstradamus.

b0ng
07-02-2012, 11:28 AM
Does anything but 2011 matter ... slick?

Its 2012 there kiddo, welcome to the present.

Yeah it matters. Especially when you have the most of the same staff and personnel from those previous years, son.

EDIT: And Kubiak preached on, ad naseum, about how he wants to use the run to open up the pass, even in the years (2009, 2007, etc etc) where we had no run game. It drove most of us crazy when he said crap like that and Schaub was putting up 300 yard games all the time.

Rey
07-02-2012, 11:57 AM
:handshake: It's a team sport and takes all facets working together to be successful. IMO, that all starts with the OL executing. None of the "skill" positions look nearly as "skilled" when they don't.

Yep...

And a lot of the defensive players reads in the front 7 are based on what the O-line is doing as well...Especially the D-line and OLB's...

Keeping that backside DE guessing is very important to the stretch run and PA bootleg...

Perki-Perk
07-02-2012, 01:16 PM
Somebody asked, "What are we, right now?". Well, Right Now, with Shaub back in the fold, we are more of a passing team with a really good run game. Last year, before Shaub went down, we were a passing team with a really good run game. When TJ started, we were a running team, who sometimes passed it with buttholes clinched. Why do people argue just for arguments sake when you could look stats up? Come on guys, we all root for the same team.

HOU-TEX
07-02-2012, 01:49 PM
*sigh* Can't wait until camp starts....

ObsiWan
07-02-2012, 03:36 PM
My money is on homefries or homeskillet.

LOL @ "homeskillet"

ObsiWan
07-02-2012, 03:38 PM
Yeah it matters. Especially when you have the most of the same staff and personnel from those previous years, son.

EDIT: And Kubiak preached on, ad naseum, about how he wants to use the run to open up the pass, even in the years (2009, 2007, etc etc) where we had no run game. It drove most of us crazy when he said crap like that and Schaub was putting up 300 yard games all the time.

I seem to recall he made the run work well enough to beat Indy/Manning with Dayne as our "feature back" and HWWNBN under center.

Bottom Line: Kubiak will go with whatever works.

The Pencil Neck
07-02-2012, 03:48 PM
I seem to recall he made the run work well enough to beat Indy/Manning with Dayne as our "feature back" and HWWNBN under center.

Bottom Line: Kubiak will go with whatever works.

It was so weird. We pounded the snot out of the Colts in that game. And then a few weeks later, Larry Johnson and the Chiefs couldn't. Of course, that was the year Herm Edwards broke Larry Johnson by feeding him the ball too much, but still. I expected the Chiefs to beat the Colts in that game.

Texecutioner
07-02-2012, 06:07 PM
Does anything but 2011 matter ... slick?

Its 2012 there kiddo, welcome to the present.

Yes it does. It shows a pattern of consistency under a regime. One season is determined by a lot of circumstances as to how an offense schemes and operates. DIfferent factors like injuries can change those variables throughout a season. Previous season statistics give us factual data to go off in order to draw a proper conclusion as to what this offense is and how it has operated under Kubiak. INfantry Cak provided some of that data and it definitely showed a pattern.

One of the biggest factors that I haven't heard anyone mention was that the Texans became more run oriented, because of Yates playing. He was a 5th round rookie thrown into the fire. Kubiak made the offense much more run oriented when that happened and rightfully so. The best WR Yates had at the time was Owen Daniels as well. They had to go more run oriented due to what the personal was on the team that was able to suit up. Since you keep wanting to talk about the "present and the future" going forward, this offense will be what it is able to be based on what QB is out there. If Yates has to play, than this offense will likely be very run oriented again. If Schaub is out there, than this offense becomes a balanced offense with a lot more passing involved. Why wouldn't they? Schaub is a top 10 QB that has proven that he can lead the league in passing yards.

ckhouston
07-02-2012, 06:32 PM
INfantry Cak provided some of that data and it definitely showed a pattern.

Agreed and the stats speak for themselves, not arguing that. But what team was on the field then? Now Kubes knows his defense can stop the other team, so he doesnt have to hang 30+ on the board to have a chance every game. He has the best one two punch in the game IMO at RB, so if you can ... why wouldnt you run the ball, eat the clock, stuff the opponent, win the game ... everytime. Will there be huge passing plays? Sure because they will be open, but I believe you will see a focus to a ground and pound style offense that takes the pressure off the QB to have to win in the clutch. Kubes has made the mistake in the past of letting Matt throw in situations that he cost us the game when we could have just ran and ate up the clock. I think Gary is smart enough to learn from his mistakes.

drs23
07-02-2012, 07:00 PM
Agreed and the stats speak for themselves, not arguing that. But what team was on the field then? Now Kubes knows his defense can stop the other team, so he doesnt have to hang 30+ on the board to have a chance every game. He has the best one two punch in the game IMO at RB, so if you can ... why wouldnt you run the ball, eat the clock, stuff the opponent, win the game ... everytime. Will there be huge passing plays? Sure because they will be open, but I believe you will see a focus to a ground and pound style offense that takes the pressure off the QB to have to win in the clutch. Kubes has made the mistake in the past of letting Matt throw in situations that he cost us the game when we could have just ran and ate up the clock. I think Gary is smart enough to learn from his mistakes.

We don't agree much but I think you're spot on here. + You know the difference between 'then' and 'than'. :D

Maddict5
07-03-2012, 12:47 AM
Kubiak opens with passing game because defenses are keying on the run.

They've got Arian Foster on their mind all week leading up to the game against us. They've got Foster on their mind Sunday breakfast. And in the locker room. And during warmups. And during the national anthem.

So you go with a few passes right off the bat...because they're anticipating Foster.

Then the run game. Then the play action. Then AJ or OD. And soon, the defense doesn't know what to defend.

teams must be kicking themselves for not noticing this complex, devious plan by kubiak during their film study every wk :choke:

JB
07-03-2012, 09:32 AM
Agreed and the stats speak for themselves, not arguing that. But what team was on the field then? Now Kubes knows his defense can stop the other team, so he doesnt have to hang 30+ on the board to have a chance every game. He has the best one two punch in the game IMO at RB, so if you can ... why wouldnt you run the ball, eat the clock, stuff the opponent, win the game ... everytime. Will there be huge passing plays? Sure because they will be open, but I believe you will see a focus to a ground and pound style offense that takes the pressure off the QB to have to win in the clutch. Kubes has made the mistake in the past of letting Matt throw in situations that he cost us the game when we could have just ran and ate up the clock. I think Gary is smart enough to learn from his mistakes.

Gary is a west coast coach, we are not going to be a ground and pound type of team

ckhouston
07-03-2012, 10:49 AM
Gary is a west coast coach, we are not going to be a ground and pound type of team

Gary came from Denver

In 1997 they rushed 520 times, passed 513 times in the reg season, and then went 150 rush to 96 pass in the postseason, and won the SB.

In 1998 they rushed 525 times and passed 491 times in the reg season,and then went 112 rush to 86 pass in the postseason, and won the SB.

Before they they were a pass first team (by a wide margin in some years) and didn't win.

Think Gary remembers that?

JB
07-03-2012, 11:00 AM
Gary came from Denver

In 1997 they rushed 520 times, passed 513 times in the reg season, and then went 150 rush to 96 pass in the postseason, and won the SB.

In 1998 they rushed 525 times and passed 491 times in the reg season,and then went 112 rush to 86 pass in the postseason, and won the SB.

Before they they were a pass first team (by a wide margin in some years) and didn't win.

Think Gary remembers that?I guess i misunderstood your "ground and pound" comment. I agree we will run the ball

The Pencil Neck
07-03-2012, 11:35 AM
Gary came from Denver

In 1997 they rushed 520 times, passed 513 times in the reg season, and then went 150 rush to 96 pass in the postseason, and won the SB.

In 1998 they rushed 525 times and passed 491 times in the reg season,and then went 112 rush to 86 pass in the postseason, and won the SB.

Before they they were a pass first team (by a wide margin in some years) and didn't win.

Think Gary remembers that?

Ground and pound is different than just being a rushing team. Ground and pound implies a straight-ahead, hat-on-a-hat blocking scheme.

The knock on those teams back then was that, although they were a rushing team, they were still a "finesse" team because of the zone blocking scheme. That's what Lombardi was really going on about last year about us being soft. He was just aping that old bs about a zone blocking scheme team being soft because it's not a ground and pound, hat-on-a-hat, "manly" approach. It's more cerebral.

JB
07-03-2012, 11:41 AM
Ground and pound is different than just being a rushing team. Ground and pound implies a straight-ahead, hat-on-a-hat blocking scheme.

The knock on those teams back then was that, although they were a rushing team, they were still a "finesse" team because of the zone blocking scheme. That's what Lombardi was really going on about last year about us being soft. He was just aping that old bs about a zone blocking scheme team being soft because it's not a ground and pound, hat-on-a-hat, "manly" approach. It's more cerebral.

Yeah, when I hear "ground and pound", I envision the steelers with Franco Harris or the Oilers with Earl Campbell

infantrycak
07-03-2012, 11:49 AM
Gary is a west coast coach, we are not going to be a ground and pound type of team

Exactly. Even when I hear rushing first team I don't think of any WCO team.

ck put some stats up - here is a contrasting example in what it actually means to be rushing first.

2009 New York Jets - 393 passing attempts, 607 rushing attempts.

thunderkyss
07-03-2012, 11:55 AM
Kubiak opens with passing game because defenses are keying on the run.

They've got Arian Foster on their mind all week leading up to the game against us. They've got Foster on their mind Sunday breakfast. And in the locker room. And during warmups. And during the national anthem.

So you go with a few passes right off the bat...because they're anticipating Foster.

Then the run game. Then the play action. Then AJ or OD. And soon, the defense doesn't know what to defend.

Of course we're going to trick them up with the pass. They obviously have absolutely no reason to be thinking about Matt Schaub & Andre Johnson.

None.

They'll just be so focused on Arian Foster & Ben Tate.

Andre Johnson.... pfft....

Matt 4,000 yards per year... pfft....

Rey
07-03-2012, 12:58 PM
The Texans led the league in rushing attempts.

We were 30th in passing attempts.

If we aren't a running team then no one is.


Schaub had about 70 more completions in '08 than he did last year even though in '08 he only played one more game.

Schaub was having his worst year in completion percentage since he's been here, but he was still on pace to have a very good season because his ypc were the highest it's been since he's been here by far. I think some of that has to do with the fact that we had our first back to back years of a dynamic rushing attack.

You can point to Yates as the reason passing attemps were down, but Yates on average attempted only 7 less passes than Schaub and that is with him sitting out the entire Titans game with the exception of the first drive. And that's also including the game Where TJ took over for Leinart.

The most attempts Matt had in a game was 39 and the most TJ had in a game was 44.

Despite popular belief, we didn't go into a shell because TJ was the QB. We still threw the ball around about the same.


Now, that's not saying that in specific situations they didn't pull back on the reins some. Like for instance the Colts game. TJ was having a good game actually, but for some reason the coaches didn't give him more attempts. (I will admit that I didn't watch that game...I was in Vegas and only caught bits and pieces and highlights)

76Texan
07-03-2012, 01:39 PM
Against the Raiders, a team that was known to be mediocre at defending the run, one would expect the Texans would at least run as much as they did in 2010.

However, thie year, the Raiders were determined to stop the Texans running game. They played mostly single safety, and even zero coverage to bring more men into the box.

The Texans ran the ball 16 times and passed the ball 21 times in the first half.
Then they started the second half with roughly the same distribution (7 runs and 10 pass attempts) as the Raiders continued with their defensive game plan and forged ahead by 8 with 10 minutes to go in the 4th.

It was only then that the Texans switched full gear to the passing game.

The Texans tried to stay with the running game for as long as possible even though it wasn't working.

In fact, a case could be made for the Texans to throw a few more times in the first 3 quarters given the defensive game plan by the Raiders.

I think you have to see the game, rather than the stats. The Texans passed 2X the number of rushes, yet you are saying they didn't pass enough? And passing ypa will always be greater than rushing yards per attempt. The Texans hit on 3 big pass plays to get a big chunk of that yardage. And only came away with 10 points off those plays. It was a poor offensive showing all around, but it was the negative plays in the passing game (ints & sacks) that kept the Raiders in the game, and eventually lost the game for the Texans.

Not only did I rewatch the 2011 game; I also rewatched the 2010 game.
That was why I made the comparison.
(I went back and re-rewatch them again to be sure.)

In 2010, the Texans ran 12 running plays and 21 passing plays in the first half as compared with 16 and 22 in 2011.

We attempted a few more running plays in 2011 (16 of 38) as opposed to (12 of 33) even though the Raiders geared a little more toward defending the run.

I only said that a case can be made for us to pass the ball a few more times in the first 3 quarters.

To really look at how well the passing game, let's take a closer look:

1. On our first drive, Schaub converted a third and 2 with a pass to JJ for 9. The drive resulted in a TD completion to Walter.

2. On our second drive, Schaub converted a third and 1 with a 4 yd pass to Walter. He followed it up with an interception. On this play, we had max protect. Schaub's execution was not good as he threw the ball where there was a single block. There were a few things Schaub can do better here, including throwing the ball away, but it doesn't mean that the passing game wasn't working.

3. On our 3rd drive, 2 runs by Foster netted two yards, leaving Schaub to face 3rd and 8. The Raiders sent an all-out blitz (zero coverage). Schaub had a natural screen on the left to Dreessen but he picked the wrong side as he threw an incompletion to Casy on the right. There was also an extra blitzer on this side, making the throw more difficult. Again, it was not the best execution by Schaub, but his job was made tougher when the run game bogged down.

4. On our 4th drive (2nd quarter), the Texans failed to convert on 3rd and 2 as Foster rushed for no gain (the Raiders had more men then the Texans can block effectively).

5. Our 5th drive needeed only one 56yd pass to Dreessen for a TD.

6. We faced 2nd and 6 on our next drive. Schaub's pass to JJ was slightly too far ahead; both JJ and Walter were "open" on the same side.
On third down, the Raiders sent another all-out blitz; McClain batted down a pass to Foster. Basically a good gamble that paid off for the Raiders - even though Schaub might have a chance to extend the play here, I can't be too hard on him. There were a couple of receiver "open" on this play.

7. Schaub converted another third and 5 with a pass to Anderson for 9.
Then on third and 7, Schaub's screen pass to Walter only worked for 5 yards as Wade Smith whiffed on a block. This one could have resulted in a TD easily as the Texans had 2 more blockers than the Raiders on this side (as the came in on another blitz).

8. With 1:04 left in the half, there wasn't really a whole lot of time here to take any risk as the Texans still had the lead 14-12.

...

I don's see how any one can say that the passing game wasn't working. It didn't work great, but 13 of 21 for 177 yards and 2 TDs is plenty good for me.

76Texan
07-03-2012, 01:44 PM
The Texans led the league in rushing attempts.

We were 30th in passing attempts.

If we aren't a running team then no one is.






Check the distribution between the run ans the pass in the first half; it will tell you a different story.

infantrycak
07-03-2012, 01:46 PM
The Texans led the league in rushing attempts.

We were 30th in passing attempts.

If we aren't a running team then no one is.

One year, particularly one with a QB change doesn't define a franchise.

Schaub threw 32 times per game. TJ threw 22.

Pretty simple question - was having Schaub in the game our preference? It was according to the coaches who put him in there and called the plays.

15 TD's 6 INT's with Schaub. 3 TD's 3 INT's with TJ.

20 passing TD's, 16 rushing TD's on the season. 27 ppg under Schaub, 17 ppg under TJ.

badboy
07-03-2012, 01:51 PM
Rather than passing or rushing, I am more interested in how many times we cross the goal line this season rather than on the means of crossing. We have a balanced attack.

Texn4life
07-03-2012, 04:20 PM
One year, particularly one with a QB change doesn't define a franchise.

Schaub threw 32 times per game. TJ threw 22.

Pretty simple question - was having Schaub in the game our preference? It was according to the coaches who put him in there and called the plays.

15 TD's 6 INT's with Schaub. 3 TD's 3 INT's with TJ.

20 passing TD's, 16 rushing TD's on the season. 27 ppg under Schaub, 17 ppg under TJ.

On top of of that and the other stats you and others put out there, we were missing Andre Johnson for most of the year. That obviously played a big role in why we were so run heavy oriented last year. With AJ out, we never really had a huge threat in the passing game. Couple that with a smart mentality of Kubiak not wanting his young QB to lose the game for us and its a recipe for putting the ball in the gut of Foster/Tate quite a bit.

Texecutioner
07-03-2012, 04:53 PM
Despite popular belief, we didn't go into a shell because TJ was the QB. We still threw the ball around about the same.




They hardly threw the ball at all. Kubiak didn't trust Yates, because he was a young rookie. Andre Johnson wasn't out there either, so the weapons in the passing game were very limited as well. It's popular belief, because that's what happened.


On top of of that and the other stats you and others put out there, we were missing Andre Johnson for most of the year. That obviously played a big role in why we were so run heavy oriented last year. With AJ out, we never really had a huge threat in the passing game. Couple that with a smart mentality of Kubiak not wanting his young QB to lose the game for us and its a recipe for putting the ball in the gut of Foster/Tate quite a bit.

Exactly. I"m not sure why this is hard to understand. A team loses it's top ten QB, and it's top 3 WR in the entire league, what are the odds that the offense becomes more run oriented when your other best weapons on that offense are the two RB's?? The Texans had to become a lot more run oriented.

Lucky
07-03-2012, 11:32 PM
To really look at how well the passing game, let's take a closer look:

1. On our first drive, Schaub converted a third and 2 with a pass to JJ for 9. The drive resulted in a TD completion to Walter. (The scoring drive was setup by a 20 yard run into Raider territory by Foster on a 3rd &1).

2. On our second drive, Schaub converted a third and 1 with a 4 yd pass to Walter. He followed it up with an interception. On this play, we had max protect. Schaub's execution was not good as he threw the ball where there was a single block. There were a few things Schaub can do better here, including throwing the ball away, but it doesn't mean that the passing game wasn't working. (So other than poor execution that led to Raider points, the passing game was working? OK).

3. On our 3rd drive, 2 runs by Foster netted two yards, leaving Schaub to face 3rd and 8. The Raiders sent an all-out blitz (zero coverage). Schaub had a natural screen on the left to Dreessen but he picked the wrong side as he threw an incompletion to Casy on the right. There was also an extra blitzer on this side, making the throw more difficult. Again, it was not the best execution by Schaub, but his job was made tougher when the run game bogged down. (So neither the pass nor the run worked on that drive. So abandon the run.)

4. On our 4th drive (2nd quarter), the Texans failed to convert on 3rd and 2 as Foster rushed for no gain (the Raiders had more men then the Texans can block effectively). (After the initial scoring drive, the Texans went 2 for their next 11 in 3rd down conversions while passing. Was that an indication that the passing game was working?)

I'm not suggesting that the Texans ran the ball too little. What I'm saying is that the passing game was sub par, as well. More passing and less running wasn't necessarily going to help the cause of the passing game. What would have helped was a better job of executing in both the run and pass game. If either had been consistently effective, the Texans wouldn't have lost that Sunday.

76Texan
07-05-2012, 08:19 AM
I'm not suggesting that the Texans ran the ball too little. What I'm saying is that the passing game was sub par, as well. More passing and less running wasn't necessarily going to help the cause of the passing game. What would have helped was a better job of executing in both the run and pass game. If either had been consistently effective, the Texans wouldn't have lost that Sunday.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

To me, with the defense gearing up to play the run in the first half, the Texans could have done better attempting about two more passes for a better run/pass distribution according to the opponent's defensive game plan.

We did it in 2010 against the Raiders; we didn't do that in 2011 (a better run/pass distribution according to how the defense schemes for us.)

13 for 21, 177 yards and 2 TDs in the passing game vs. 16 carries for 56 yards clearly showed that it was the running game that dragged us down.

13 for 21 is a 61.9 % completion percentage (Schaub's number for the year is 61%).
The 8.42 ypa is almost the same as Schaub's average for the year (8.49 ypa).

On the other hand, our RBs averaged 4.62 ypc for the year;
in the first half of this game, they posted 3.5 ypc, which is way below that average.

76Texan
07-05-2012, 08:30 AM
Also, note that the Texans covert 4 of 8 third down chances with the pass in the first half; including the sack Schaub took with 23 secs left to go in the half instead of risking a throw. That's not a bad third-down conversion rate.