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View Full Version : Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates


Lurvinator11
06-26-2012, 12:00 AM
I made some pictures for our favorite back up. Enjoy! You have to follow the links cause the pictures came out too small when I saved them. Don't worry either. None of this is spam or anything like that. Just some good pictures. Once again, enjoy and post some feedback.

http://vertical.memegenerator.net/instance/40368
http://vertical.memegenerator.net/instance/40366
http://vertical.memegenerator.net/instance/40364
http://vertical.memegenerator.net/instance/40362
http://vertical.memegenerator.net/instance/40360
http://vertical.memegenerator.net/instance/40358

Trap_Star
06-26-2012, 12:27 AM
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/640/gaymemegeneratorimnotsa.jpg

Lurvinator11
06-26-2012, 12:34 AM
Lol in all seriousness, my friends and I were joking about how TJ was possibly treated last season, so I made those just for fun. I know they aren't the BEST meme's but him and I thought they were funny, so we hope you guys think they are funny as well.

ObsiWan
06-26-2012, 03:58 AM
http://vertical.memegenerator.net/images/Large/40358.jpg
Schaub: I swear Coach, he didn't get that trick from me...

Kubiak: I know Matt... I know...

ckhouston
06-26-2012, 06:41 AM
Schaub: I swear Coach, he didn't get that trick from me...

Kubiak: I know Matt... I know... You taught him the one where you fall down, are injured, and miss most the season.

fify

Scooter
06-26-2012, 01:44 PM
had me laughing, great stuff lurvinator

TJ! SHUT UP!

HOU-TEX
06-26-2012, 02:23 PM
Good stuff! +Rep

Texan_Bill
06-26-2012, 02:34 PM
http://vertical.memegenerator.net/images/Large/40358.jpg

I thought he was doing his impersonation of Tebow throwing the ball. :smiliepalm:

Lurvinator11
06-26-2012, 03:08 PM
Thanks guys!

TexansBull
06-26-2012, 10:50 PM
http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2008/9/27/128669750948384175.jpg

I repped you, but still...

DBCooper
06-29-2012, 12:05 PM
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/640/gaymemegeneratorimnotsa.jpg

And trust me, Trap knows gay.

ObsiWan
07-04-2012, 01:41 AM
fify

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSyCLIUqB89c1WzMHAfRObKn7_lWDGHz dXBq-CjBNZB3ogKGkd6

Trap_Star
07-04-2012, 04:35 PM
And trust me, Trap knows gay.

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/74869_1347398185199_1838667436_659509_2805894_n.jp g

thunderkyss
07-04-2012, 06:57 PM
Ok, let's take our feelings for Schaub out of this.

From what you saw of TJ Yates in 2011, do you think Tj has what it takes to be an NFL QB, a starter?

I'm going on record as saying Yes, yes he has.

He's got the arm, he's got the athleticism, he's got the necessary toughness, he's got a good head on his shoulders.

I think the Texans are in a very good position at the QB position.

ObsiWan
07-04-2012, 07:42 PM
Ok, let's take our feelings for Schaub out of this.

From what you saw of TJ Yates in 2011, do you think Tj has what it takes to be an NFL QB, a starter?

I'm going on record as saying Yes, yes he has.

He's got the arm, he's got the athleticism, he's got the necessary toughness, he's got a good head on his shoulders.

I think the Texans are in a very good position at the QB position.

Not yet.
Yes, he's got arm strength but I haven't seen the precision I'd like to see at the position. Arm strength needs to be accompanied by accuracy or it's kinda useless.
Yes, he's got the athletism (compared to Schaub anyway) but from what I've seen he hasn't developed sufficient pocket presense to know when to use it as effectively as he might.
Toughness...? Has he really been tested in that regard? The one time (Tenn. game) he was nicked up, Kubiak yanked him.
Yeah, he seems to have a good head on his shoulders but he still needs more experience in reading defenses, looking off defenders, and knowing when to use those legs to move the chains when his passing options aren't there.

Can he be a starter? The raw material is there. But I think he needs a season or two (a la Aaron Rodgers) with the clipboard learning the finer points of NFL QB-ing.

And I think he can get there. I just don't think he's there right now.
:texflag:

DBCooper
07-04-2012, 09:58 PM
Ok, let's take our feelings for Schaub out of this.

From what you saw of TJ Yates in 2011, do you think Tj has what it takes to be an NFL QB, a starter?

I'm going on record as saying Yes, yes he has.

He's got the arm, he's got the athleticism, he's got the necessary toughness, he's got a good head on his shoulders.

I think the Texans are in a very good position at the QB position.

I don't know.

I keep hearing about this arm strength, but what I saw of his passes, especially in the playoffs, most of them were soft and floating.

He manages the game well, now let's see some pepper.

The Pencil Neck
07-04-2012, 10:01 PM
And I think he can get there. I just don't think he's there right now.
:texflag:

But I thought that was the gist of the question. Not whether he's a good to great QB, yet, but whether he's got what it takes. To me, that means the potential and attributes to do it.

I think he's got all the tools to be a great QB in this league. Last year (and I imagine, this year), he doesn't have the experience or the knowledge. But he's got the arm strength, intelligence, accuracy, and athleticism to do it.

With a year or two with the clipboard, I expect him to be ready to go. If he were asked to be a starter right this moment, I think he'd do OK. He'd need his team to help him out against tough opponents. Good defenses like the Ravens and Steelers are still going to be able to confuse him into making mistakes with the ball.

ObsiWan
07-05-2012, 02:14 AM
But I thought that was the gist of the question. Not whether he's a good to great QB, yet, but whether he's got what it takes. To me, that means the potential and attributes to do it.

I think he's got all the tools to be a great QB in this league. Last year (and I imagine, this year), he doesn't have the experience or the knowledge. But he's got the arm strength, intelligence, accuracy, and athleticism to do it.

With a year or two with the clipboard, I expect him to be ready to go. If he were asked to be a starter right this moment, I think he'd do OK. He'd need his team to help him out against tough opponents. Good defenses like the Ravens and Steelers are still going to be able to confuse him into making mistakes with the ball.

I've seen the arm strength and the athleticism. I'm still waiting on the accuracy; three picks on his record and several near-picks and called back picks say, to me, accuracy isn't there yet. And I think the intelligence is likely there - he's never looked lost or clueless - so with experience he'll be less likely to be fooled by those good defenses you mentioned.

Can't tell if an acorn will be a big oak tree unless it starts to grow. Until it does, it's just another nut. :D

The Pencil Neck
07-05-2012, 02:48 AM
I've seen the arm strength and the athleticism. I'm still waiting on the accuracy; three picks on his record and several near-picks and called back picks say, to me, accuracy isn't there yet. And I think the intelligence is likely there - he's never looked lost or clueless - so with experience he'll be less likely to be fooled by those good defenses you mentioned.

Can't tell if an acorn will be a big oak tree unless it starts to grow. Until it does, it's just another nut. :D

For me, his interceptions haven't been because he's been inaccurate. I think he gets the ball where he wants to it to go pretty well. I think his interceptions are generally an issue with his inexperience with reading the defenses and thinking he can sneak the ball in tight places because he trusts his arm (and his receivers) too much.

CloakNNNdagger
07-05-2012, 09:27 AM
For me, his interceptions haven't been because he's been inaccurate. I think he gets the ball where he wants to it to go pretty well. I think his interceptions are generally an issue with his inexperience with reading the defenses and thinking he can sneak the ball in tight places because he trusts his arm (and his receivers) too much.

When he was running away from the side of play and passing back to the opposite side, I was not impressed with his arm strength. And this is where you expect true arm strength to be demonstrated.

76Texan
07-05-2012, 10:50 AM
When he was running away from the side of play and passing back to the opposite side, I was not impressed with his arm strength. And this is where you expect true arm strength to be demonstrated.

I think you're asking for a little too much, Doc.

Here's a pass Yates threw against LSU in the first game of his Senior season:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ojj_D4Zp5w

The spot he threw the ball from (that I can see clearly on my better game tape) is right at the top of the Numbers. The spot where he threw the ball to was about two yards plus inside the Numbers.

From where he set up to where the receiver grabbed the ball was about 57 linear yards.

On the run, throwing across his body, I'd say that's plenty enough arm strength.

That's more than enough as compared to this pass to AJ:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wV-u6Vnr7o&feature=related

This one wasn't quite a 50-yd bomb as the title proclaims, but Yates did have to throw more to the inside (more across his body). It was good enough to hit AJ in stride, and that's all that matters.

76Texan
07-05-2012, 10:56 AM
I've seen the arm strength and the athleticism. I'm still waiting on the accuracy; three picks on his record and several near-picks and called back picks say, to me, accuracy isn't there yet. And I think the intelligence is likely there - he's never looked lost or clueless - so with experience he'll be less likely to be fooled by those good defenses you mentioned.

Can't tell if an acorn will be a big oak tree unless it starts to grow. Until it does, it's just another nut. :D

Obsi, this same line applies to Andy Dalton and Cam Newton.

And obviously, Gabbert doesn't even qualify to be in the conversation.
He was too busy ducking and chucking. http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

ckhouston
07-05-2012, 10:59 AM
I think TJ will be our next starting QB. Either this year if Matt falters or is injured again, or next year if they decide not to break the bank to sign Matt. He has the ability, just needs experience.

CloakNNNdagger
07-05-2012, 03:45 PM
I think you're asking for a little too much, Doc.

Here's a pass Yates threw against LSU in the first game of his Senior season:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ojj_D4Zp5w

The spot he threw the ball from (that I can see clearly on my better game tape) is right at the top of the Numbers. The spot where he threw the ball to was about two yards plus inside the Numbers.

From where he set up to where the receiver grabbed the ball was about 57 linear yards.

On the run, throwing across his body, I'd say that's plenty enough arm strength.

That's more than enough as compared to this pass to AJ:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wV-u6Vnr7o&feature=related

This one wasn't quite a 50-yd bomb as the title proclaims, but Yates did have to throw more to the inside (more across his body). It was good enough to hit AJ in stride, and that's all that matters.

Your first video was impressive, but it's difficult to see how really far to his left on the field the receiver was. Yates did not seem to be throwing across his body. The second video shows him with time to set and the pass was not across his body.

There were a couple of plays last year that TJ was trying to throw the ball acutely across his body while running away (to the right side of the field, without a set) from the receiver (positioned on the left side of the field).

ObsiWan
07-10-2012, 12:32 PM
Obsi, this same line applies to Andy Dalton and Cam Newton.

And obviously, Gabbert doesn't even qualify to be in the conversation.
He was too busy ducking and chucking. http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

The jury is still out on those two guys also.

thunderkyss
07-10-2012, 03:15 PM
Obsi, this same line applies to Andy Dalton and Cam Newton.


More or less, that's what I'm talking about. Those two guys are starters and no one is threatening or pushing them. They are by no means finished products, but their organizations believe they have something to build on.

Do we have that in TJ, that's the question. I believe we do. Matt Schaub is the starter & will be the starter, which is why I said leave him out of the equation. He's a luxury we have right now, allowing Tj to develop at a slower pace.

What I think will be interesting, is how will Kubiak treat him. He's always said that Matt's his QB, & it doesn't matter if we're losing by 50 or winning by 50, Matt will be in the game.

I wonder if he'll take that same approach in 2012.

The Pencil Neck
07-10-2012, 05:27 PM
More or less, that's what I'm talking about. Those two guys are starters and no one is threatening or pushing them. They are by no means finished products, but their organizations believe they have something to build on.

Do we have that in TJ, that's the question. I believe we do. Matt Schaub is the starter & will be the starter, which is why I said leave him out of the equation. He's a luxury we have right now, allowing Tj to develop at a slower pace.

What I think will be interesting, is how will Kubiak treat him. He's always said that Matt's his QB, & it doesn't matter if we're losing by 50 or winning by 50, Matt will be in the game.

I wonder if he'll take that same approach in 2012.

If we're up or down by 50, then I wouldn't mind TJ seeing the field.

Double Barrel
07-10-2012, 07:41 PM
I think TJ is going to be okay. Schaub was not a regular starter until his 4th year in the league. I think TJ did alright last year under the circumstances and considering his lack of reps.

I think holding the 3 picks against a top rated defense in the playoffs against him is short-sighted. Even Tom Brady, arguably one of the greatest QBs ever, threw 3 picks against a Ravens D in the first quarter of a playoff (http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=300110017) game. I think it says more about the Ravens defense being consistently badass than anything about a rook QB in the second round of a playoff game on the road in a hostile stadium. JMO

infantrycak
07-10-2012, 07:56 PM
I think TJ is going to be okay. Schaub was not a regular starter until his 4th year in the league. I think TJ did alright last year under the circumstances and considering his lack of reps.

I think holding the 3 picks against a top rated defense in the playoffs against him is short-sighted. Even Tom Brady, arguably one of the greatest QBs ever, threw 3 picks against a Ravens D in the first quarter of a playoff (http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=300110017) game. I think it says more about the Ravens defense being consistently badass than anything about a rook QB in the second round of a playoff game on the road in a hostile stadium. JMO

Agree generally. On TJ I think he has potential if he gets to sit for awhile. I agree looking just at the Ravens game is not fair. Looking over his starts he was 4 TD's and 6 INT's. Half a TD per game doesn't cut it nor does having more INT's than TD's. Obviously that needs improvement. This off-season should be huge for him.

On Schaub not starting for awhile - he was sitting behind the highest paid most hyped player in the NFL and even with that fans were bringing posters to games for him to start. It was reported two teams offered at least 1st round picks for him the year before we got him. The growing controversy played a significant role in us getting him.

thunderkyss
07-10-2012, 08:37 PM
On Schaub not starting for awhile - he was sitting behind the highest paid most hyped player in the NFL and even with that fans were bringing posters to games for him to start. It was reported two teams offered at least 1st round picks for him the year before we got him. The growing controversy played a significant role in us getting him.

There's nothing wrong with that. There's no way anyone can convince me (not that I matter) sitting on the bench a year, or two, or three, or four is going to hurt a QBs development. Now if he's got Pete Ramsey or Rex Grossman starting ahead of him then that four year bench rider just ain't got it.

There ain't no shame sitting behind Mike Vick, or Matt Schaub.

With that said, there are some QBs that are tough enough, mentally, to be able to start from day one, or some time their rookie year, but most are not. We've seen many, many examples of that.

:vincepalm:

silvrhand
07-12-2012, 12:33 AM
Agree generally. On TJ I think he has potential if he gets to sit for awhile. I agree looking just at the Ravens game is not fair. Looking over his starts he was 4 TD's and 6 INT's. Half a TD per game doesn't cut it nor does having more INT's than TD's. Obviously that needs improvement. This off-season should be huge for him.

On Schaub not starting for awhile - he was sitting behind the highest paid most hyped player in the NFL and even with that fans were bringing posters to games for him to start. It was reported two teams offered at least 1st round picks for him the year before we got him. The growing controversy played a significant role in us getting him.

That lack of offense also came without Andre Johnson, which without this offense is not even close to the same, we have noone to stretch the field and it was obvious that everyone started to stack up on us.

infantrycak
07-12-2012, 12:41 AM
That lack of offense also came without Andre Johnson, which without this offense is not even close to the same, we have noone to stretch the field and it was obvious that everyone started to stack up on us.

Which would be a great argument except AJ played 4 of 10 games with Schaub and 5 of 8 with TJ.

Schaub's last six games didn't have AJ and they were averaging 27 ppg.

ObsiWan
07-12-2012, 04:28 AM
I think TJ is going to be okay. Schaub was not a regular starter until his 4th year in the league. I think TJ did alright last year under the circumstances and considering his lack of reps.

I think holding the 3 picks against a top rated defense in the playoffs against him is short-sighted. Even Tom Brady, arguably one of the greatest QBs ever, threw 3 picks against a Ravens D in the first quarter of a playoff (http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=300110017) game. I think it says more about the Ravens defense being consistently badass than anything about a rook QB in the second round of a playoff game on the road in a hostile stadium. JMO

Okay what about when Yates nearly gave away the Atlanta game with that pick-six to start the fourth quarter that was called back due to Dunta's defensive holding? What should have been a simple swing pass to Foster nearly ended in disaster because Yates chucked it without seeing that Foster was covered.

The Falcons have a decent defense but not one that will ever be confused for the Ravens' D.

The kid has just had too many WTF moments in each game for me to annoint him Schaub's successor at this point; he needs more seasoning.

thunderkyss
07-12-2012, 08:22 AM
Okay what about when Yates nearly gave away the Atlanta game...

The kid has just had too many WTF moments in each game for me to annoint him Schaub's successor at this point; he needs more seasoning.

Do you watch other Qbs in the league? Brady & Manning have had similar moments not to mention Dalton, Cam, Stanton, and Bradford. Let's not focus on mistakes, they all make mistakes, instead let's look at the frequency & how they respond.

TejasTom
07-12-2012, 09:56 AM
What I think will be interesting, is how will Kubiak treat him. He's always said that Matt's his QB, & it doesn't matter if we're losing by 50 or winning by 50, Matt will be in the game.

I wonder if he'll take that same approach in 2012.

I hope not. There is nothing like live fire.

Double Barrel
07-12-2012, 11:55 AM
Okay what about when Yates nearly gave away the Atlanta game with that pick-six to start the fourth quarter that was called back due to Dunta's defensive holding? What should have been a simple swing pass to Foster nearly ended in disaster because Yates chucked it without seeing that Foster was covered.

The Falcons have a decent defense but not one that will ever be confused for the Ravens' D.

The kid has just had too many WTF moments in each game for me to annoint him Schaub's successor at this point; he needs more seasoning.

I try to be pragmatic about TJ. I do not advocate that he's ready to start right now, but I also take into account that he was a late round rookie with little reps thrown into a fire that had a lot of pressure to it. Some of the criticism of the dude seems excessive, like he completely melted down and cost us a chance in the playoffs.

Instead, we saw a very inexperienced player making mistakes, but also making some plays that helped win games. Kubiak had him in position to be a game manager, and I do think that a full off-season with him getting reps as a backup, getting the attention of the coaching staff and film study, and knowing he's second-in-command going into the season will make him a better player. So yeah, completely agree about needing more seasoning. Most of them do as rookies in the NFL.

I'm not comparing TJ to Peyton, but rather using Manning's rookie season as a reference. Dude threw 28 picks in his first year. If a HoF QB can suck as a rookie, I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to TJ accordingly.

And you know, you are not really required to anoint TJ as successor to Schaub when the head coach has already done so. :winky:

infantrycak
07-12-2012, 04:59 PM
I do think that a full off-season with him getting reps as a backup, getting the attention of the coaching staff and film study, and knowing he's second-in-command going into the season will make him a better player.

I think the Texans made two decisions this off-season. Schaub would be healthy and they would concentrate on advancing TJ as much as possible. TJ by all reports has been a dedicated guy and has been working hard with Schaub and then has been getting 1st team reps. It is the absolutely best scenario for him to develop. I am not so critical of TJ last season as the anti-Schaub crowd hyping TJ as anything close to as good. If healthy, Schaub clearly gives the better chance to win. Hopefully this off-season narrows that gap a lot.

Double Barrel
07-12-2012, 05:59 PM
I think the Texans made two decisions this off-season. Schaub would be healthy and they would concentrate on advancing TJ as much as possible. TJ by all reports has been a dedicated guy and has been working hard with Schaub and then has been getting 1st team reps. It is the absolutely best scenario for him to develop. I am not so critical of TJ last season as the anti-Schaub crowd hyping TJ as anything close to as good. If healthy, Schaub clearly gives the better chance to win. Hopefully this off-season narrows that gap a lot.

I truly believe that we would have seen the Texans in the AFC Championship game if Schaub had been healthy. And considering the way that the Patriots palyed that game...

Definitely agree that Schaub is our best chance. No doubt about it in my mind.

But, I think we have a competent backup in TJ that might, someday, be able to step into the role of starter and play consistently at a high level.

ObsiWan
07-12-2012, 06:55 PM
Do you watch other Qbs in the league? Brady & Manning have had similar moments not to mention Dalton, Cam, Stanton, and Bradford. Let's not focus on mistakes, they all make mistakes, instead let's look at the frequency & how they respond.

Don't care about them. They don't play for the Texans.
:texan:

Okay... after that faux pas I think he threw two more passes - in a 19-play drive - the rest of the game. To me, he looked rattled.

And his mistakes outweigh his successes if you count the INTs that should have been due to penalties or dropped picks. I don't seem to recall any TDs that should have been due to our guys dropping "for sure" TD catches. But I'm sure you guys will probably invent one or two. J/K :D


Look, IIRC, the original query was does Yates have what it takes to be an NFL starter? Right? Well, that's a pretty open-ended question when you think about it and then look back at some of the bozos who've been allowed to start in this league. My answer to that was and still is, he shouldn't be allowed to start ahead of the guy we have now, Matt Schaub.
Not yet.

Will Yates get become a quality starter? Perhaps. My question is which guy will get there first, him or Case Keenum? As long as one of them blossoms into a top-5 or 6 level QB, I'm happy.


Oh and be sure to retain that patient & benevolent "Let's not focus on mistakes; they all make mistakes" attitude when you're evaluating our coaching staff... Or when Foster/Tate fumbles on the goal line... or when K.J. doesn't look back to make a "sure" INT
:D

Thorn
07-12-2012, 07:10 PM
Will Yates get become a quality starter? Perhaps. My question is which guy will get there first, him or Case Keenum? As long as one of them blossoms into a top-5 or 6 level QB, I'm happy.


Couldn't have said it better myself. Yep. Exactly.

thunderkyss
07-12-2012, 09:42 PM
Oh and be sure to retain that patient & benevolent "Let's not focus on mistakes; they all make mistakes" attitude when you're evaluating our coaching staff... Or when Foster/Tate fumbles on the goal line... or when K.J. doesn't look back to make a "sure" INT
:D

That won't be a problem for me.

Double Barrel
07-13-2012, 06:13 PM
Oh and be sure to retain that patient & benevolent "Let's not focus on mistakes; they all make mistakes" attitude when you're evaluating our coaching staff... Or when Foster/Tate fumbles on the goal line... or when K.J. doesn't look back to make a "sure" INT
:D

hmmmm....which part of "rookie season" is confusing you? :fingergun:

I expect TJ to improve in order to fulfill our hope in him. If he's making the same mistakes this season, then progress has not been made and the gloves come off.

ObsiWan
07-14-2012, 12:34 AM
hmmmm....which part of "rookie season" is confusing you? :fingergun:

I expect TJ to improve in order to fulfill our hope in him. If he's making the same mistakes this season, then progress has not been made and the gloves come off.

That's why I say he needs more seasoning as opposed to saying trade/cut his butt now. I think there's potential for development.

My responses are largely in opposition to some who seem ready to put Schaub out to pasture this season and hand the reins to Yates now.

ObsiWan
07-14-2012, 12:39 AM
That won't be a problem for me.

I know, dude. You were certainly patient with Jacoby when most were ready to string him up.

The Pencil Neck
07-14-2012, 01:58 AM
That's why I say he needs more seasoning as opposed to saying trade/cut his butt now. I think there's potential for development.

My responses are largely in opposition to some who seem ready to put Schaub out to pasture this season and hand the reins to Yates now.

Well, I've been arguing for TJ's potential as a starter in this league, but I don't think he's anywhere near ready to take the reins from Schaub. I fervently believe that if Schaub hadn't gone down, we would have had homefield through the playoffs and we would have at least been in the SB.

thunderkyss
07-14-2012, 08:58 AM
Well, I've been arguing for TJ's potential as a starter in this league, but I don't think he's anywhere near ready to take the reins from Schaub. I fervently believe that if Schaub hadn't gone down, we would have had homefield through the playoffs and we would have at least been in the SB.

I think it's two totally different questions that many people here can't seem to separate.

Schaub's the starter, it's not even a question. He's miles ahead of Yates & will beat him in any objective contest; won't even be close.

Tj, the question is does he have a future in the NFL. To me, the answer to this question tells me how tight I should pucker up when Schaub gets hit. Tells me how much activity I should expect with Schaub's contract negotiations.

I feel like Tj is just as competent as Dalton or Newton & he's got room to improve, same as they do. I'm confident that he will improve. If something were to happen to Matt this season, I won't have as much anxiety about the situation as I did last year.

I still believe Matt will take us farther, but it is what it is.

Rey
07-14-2012, 10:41 AM
I think it's two totally different questions that many people here can't seem to separate.

Schaub's the starter, it's not even a question. He's miles ahead of Yates & will beat him in any objective contest; won't even be close.

Tj, the question is does he have a future in the NFL. To me, the answer to this question tells me how tight I should pucker up when Schaub gets hit. Tells me how much activity I should expect with Schaub's contract negotiations.

I feel like Tj is just as competent as Dalton or Newton & he's got room to improve, same as they do. I'm confident that he will improve. If something were to happen to Matt this season, I won't have as much anxiety about the situation as I did last year.

I still believe Matt will take us farther, but it is what it is.

I agree with all of that especially the Dalton part. Cam has better physical gifts though and I think it's hard to make a real comparison there but I understand what you mean.

Yates played damn well all things considered last year.

Still shouldn't be a starter for this team, but I think he has the goods to be that guy in the future for us.

thunderkyss
07-14-2012, 10:45 AM
Still shouldn't be a starter for this team, but I think he has the goods to be that guy in the future for us.

So, if you were the Bengals & Yates was Dalton, you'd be looking for a QB right now?

If you were Miami & you had Yates, you would have drafted Ryan Tannehill with the 8th overall pick?

Rey
07-14-2012, 02:07 PM
So, if you were the Bengals & Yates was Dalton, you'd be looking for a QB right now?

If you were Miami & you had Yates, you would have drafted Ryan Tannehill with the 8th overall pick?

No I wouldn't...if I was in charge of those teams.

But I said for us. They don't have teams that are as good as ours is overall and they don't have a schaub already on the team.

That said, if schaub goes down I'm not scared. I like yates a whole lot.

Honestly I think Yates is going to look better than schaub in pre season. But still I would believe schaub should start.

thunderkyss
07-14-2012, 03:09 PM
No I wouldn't...if I was in charge of those teams.

But I said for us. They don't have teams that are as good as ours is overall and they don't have a schaub already on the team.

That said, if schaub goes down I'm not scared. I like yates a whole lot.

Honestly I think Yates is going to look better than schaub in pre season. But still I would believe schaub should start.

Right, that's where I'm at. Except I don't know if Yates will look better, I'm sure he'll be perceived as better.

TejasTom
07-15-2012, 09:12 AM
He has a new QB coach. Maybe Dorrell will this years Vance Joseph and improve all QB play.

ObsiWan
07-15-2012, 09:21 AM
So, if you were the Bengals & Yates was Dalton, you'd be looking for a QB right now?

If you were Miami & you had Yates, you would have drafted Ryan Tannehill with the 8th overall pick?

I know you aren't talking to me but I think that's apples and oranges. If the Bengals still had a healthy Carson Palmer and Dalton was the heir apparent, then I'd probably be okay with that situation. Although I might keep looking to see who I could draft to "push" Dalton.

The Miami QB situation is just chaos. Has been for several seasons. And yeah, I would have drafted someone to push Yates just like Kubiak picked up Keenum so Yates wouldn't get too "comfortable".

thunderkyss
07-15-2012, 09:46 AM
I know you aren't talking to me but I think that's apples and oranges. If the Bengals still had a healthy Carson Palmer and Dalton was the heir apparent, then I'd probably be okay with that situation. Although I might keep looking to see who I could draft to "push" Dalton.

No, this isn't apples & oranges. My question is, do you think Yates is good enough to start in the NFL.

Not if he's good enough to start on this team. The Bengals are "comfortable" enough with their QB situation that they're going into next season with Dalton as their starter. There's no question about it. There won't be any QB competition in TC. When they bring another QB to the team, it will be as Dalton's back up.

Tj is in a situation now, where he won't start. That doesn't change his ability to start.

The Miami QB situation is just chaos. Has been for several seasons. And yeah, I would have drafted someone to push Yates just like Kubiak picked up Keenum so Yates wouldn't get too "comfortable".

drafting someone to push Yates is not the same as drafting a QB in the top 10. Even a second rounder wold be considerable more than "pushing" a QB. You're saying you are not 100% that Yates is your guy.

If you're talking about a 5th rounder... he's not a threat to your starter. A UDFA, he's not a threat. If you draft a first rounder & a 4th rounder, you're admitting the QBs on your roster last season are ****.... (& we picked one of them up).

Take Schaub out of it. If you were a QB hungry team, would you feel good about Tj Yates starting for your club?

The Pencil Neck
07-15-2012, 05:12 PM
If you were a QB hungry team, would you feel good about Tj Yates starting for your club?

I'd be worried but hopeful.

I saw enough from him last year to think that he could grow into a good QB, possibly even a great one. If everything went right and he progressed the way he should, then I'd be very happy.

But QBs don't always progress. Some guys show you some talent and then never seem to mature. There was a time after his first or second season that Jim Everett was expected to be a great QB and he just fell apart. I'd be very scared that the Yates we had last year is the Yates we're going to continue to get and that's not good enough.

So I'd be worried.

thunderkyss
07-15-2012, 08:39 PM
I'd be worried but hopeful.

I saw enough from him last year to think that he could grow into a good QB, possibly even a great one. If everything went right and he progressed the way he should, then I'd be very happy.

But QBs don't always progress. Some guys show you some talent and then never seem to mature. There was a time after his first or second season that Jim Everett was expected to be a great QB and he just fell apart. I'd be very scared that the Yates we had last year is the Yates we're going to continue to get and that's not good enough.

So I'd be worried.


So you just don't want to say until it's already been proven, you'd like to have the benefit of HIndsight...... nothing wrong with that.

Can you look at Dalton & tell me whether or not the Bengals should focus on preparing their QB for game day, or if they should be looking for another QB?

Can you look at Newton & tell me whether the Panthers would be better off working with Cam or if they should be looking for their QB of the future?

Can you look at the Arizona Cardinals & tell me if you think it was a mistake or not, to not draft a QB in the first round?

If you cannot answer those three questions with a yes, then you're probably not qualified to answer my original question.

It doesn't matter that QBs don't always progress. It doesn't matter if his name is Tj Yates, Cam Newton, Ryan Leaf, or Drew Brees. There comes a time when some general manager has to make that decision, do they have their starter or not.

If you don't think Tj is a starter, that's fine. There's no harm in that. Next year, we better draft a QB we think can be that guy, facilitate a trade to bring that guy here, prepare to overpay for Matt Schaub, or one way or another have a contingency plan in the event that we can't keep him.

If you think Tj can be that guy, then you can make Schaub a reasonable offer this year. Not too much, not too little, give yourself a way out. If he signs, then you save yourself from having to compete with truly desparate teams in 2013.

If you're stuck on "it depends, let's wait & see" you're better off going with option one, because you ain't got your guy.

The Pencil Neck
07-15-2012, 11:16 PM
So you just don't want to say until it's already been proven, you'd like to have the benefit of HIndsight...... nothing wrong with that.

Can you look at Dalton & tell me whether or not the Bengals should focus on preparing their QB for game day, or if they should be looking for another QB?

Can you look at Newton & tell me whether the Panthers would be better off working with Cam or if they should be looking for their QB of the future?

Can you look at the Arizona Cardinals & tell me if you think it was a mistake or not, to not draft a QB in the first round?

If you cannot answer those three questions with a yes, then you're probably not qualified to answer my original question.

It doesn't matter that QBs don't always progress. It doesn't matter if his name is Tj Yates, Cam Newton, Ryan Leaf, or Drew Brees. There comes a time when some general manager has to make that decision, do they have their starter or not.

If you don't think Tj is a starter, that's fine. There's no harm in that. Next year, we better draft a QB we think can be that guy, facilitate a trade to bring that guy here, prepare to overpay for Matt Schaub, or one way or another have a contingency plan in the event that we can't keep him.

If you think Tj can be that guy, then you can make Schaub a reasonable offer this year. Not too much, not too little, give yourself a way out. If he signs, then you save yourself from having to compete with truly desparate teams in 2013.

If you're stuck on "it depends, let's wait & see" you're better off going with option one, because you ain't got your guy.


First off, you're approaching this like you're the general manager. I got news, you ain't. And neither am I.

Since I'm not someone who's in charge of making the decision, I don't have access to enough information to make that decision. Because... I'm a fan and I understand that I'm a fan.

I'm not Obsi-wan. I don't remember what your original question was and I don't give a rat's ass what your original question was. I was responding to the question that I quoted in my post.

If you had asked me after a season of Peyton Manning or Drew Brees or Jim Druckenmiller in their rookie seasons, I would be giving you the same exact answer I gave you about TJ Yates. I'm not claiming to be prescient and I'm not claiming to be an expert on QB development.

As a FAN, I'd be perfectly happy if the GM and Coaching Staff decide that Yates has shown them that he has what it takes. But as a fan, all I can do is take a look at the moves they make and try to figure out what they wrt Yates and his development.

Based on those alone, they seem to be comfortable with him being their prospective #1. At least until they make moves to prove otherwise. The moves they've made this offseason seem to me to say that they expect TJ to develop at least into a competent backup if not into something more.

BTW, if you look at the questions you asked, you didn't ask them as yes/no questions so no one can answer them with a "yes." And wrt those questions:
1 - I think Dalton could develop into a great QB. If I were the Bengals, I wouldn't be looking for a starter.
2 - I think Newton could develop into a great QB although I expect him to have a few good years and then fall apart. I wouldn't be looking for another QB at this point if I were them.
3 - The Cardinals are a little more problematic. I thought Kolb was going to play a lot better than he did. I'm not totally sold that Kolb is a washout, but he could be. The Cards might not have a choice about this, though. They've sunk a lot into him and they may have to find a way to make the QB position work with what they've got. Whisenhunt could be sunk.

thunderkyss
07-16-2012, 10:07 AM
I'm not Obsi-wan.

That was my original problem. My bad.

But that was a good post you made.... maybe we should piss you off more often.

:kitten:

beerlover
07-16-2012, 10:36 AM
I have no problem playing GM :) to me TJ Yates has a higher likehood of turning into Drew Brees than a Matt Schaub type of QB. He has some grit to his game/toughness with good escapability, he has quick release & competitive edge/accepts responsibility. Might as well get this off my chest while I'm at it as well. Schaub just isn't athletic enough in my book, reminds me of Dan Fouts in the pocket. Puts up great stats but never wins big games when they count. While his Gomer Pile looks & disinterested mannerisms on sideline have nothing to do with anything it still bothers me.

thunderkyss
07-16-2012, 10:52 AM
I have no problem playing GM :) to me TJ Yates has a higher likehood of turning into Drew Brees than a Matt Schaub type of QB. He has some grit to his game/toughness with good escapability, he has quick release & competitive edge/accepts responsibility. Might as well get this off my chest while I'm at it as well. Schaub just isn't athletic enough in my book, reminds me of Dan Fouts in the pocket. Puts up great stats but never wins big games when they count. While his Gomer Pile looks & disinterested mannerisms on sideline have nothing to do with anything it still bothers me.

Well, we know athleticism isn't the end all be all of QBs. Kurt Warner is going into the Hall of Fame, he's won multiple Super Bowls & was an MVP. & he's put up some stats.

But he's probably about as mobile as Schaub.

So it's okay not to be mobile, but, you've got to have something else to make up for it. Warner had a hall-of-famer who was probably the best baller of all time.... in St Louis.

Warner had an understanding of the game that allowed him to break down defenses way before the snap & a way to communicate with his receivers that had to have been telepathic.

I think Matt is getting there with his understanding of the game. How else is he able to rack up the stats he does year after year? But he ain't there yet.

But I think you hit the nail on the head with your statement about Yates. Grit & game/toughness... if he can step those up a notch like he did in 2009, he can be Warneresque in my opinion.

thunderkyss
07-16-2012, 10:57 AM
One more thing.

IF Schaub had that "grit & game/toughness" I bet he would have a big contract with the Texans right now.

I'll admit I was wrong, I was calling it leadership. But you're right Beerlover, it's grit/toughness that he's missing. That competitive edge on every play.

Rey
07-16-2012, 11:04 AM
Does schaub have grit? Hmmmmm. I honestly don't think of grit and scrappiness when it comes to schaub, but I'm not ready to say he isn't that guy.

I think part of that perception of Yates is because of the situation he was put in and he also played in games that mattered at the end of the year.

I think if schaub had been in those games where the intensity was turned up he might be thought of differently. I dunno.

What I do know is schaub should be the starter this next season until proven otherwise.

thunderkyss
07-16-2012, 11:09 AM
What I do know is schaub should be the starter this next season until proven otherwise.

For the record, I'm not saying any different.

All I'm saying, IMO, I would hitch my wagon to Schaub, like we're tied to AJ, for many, many years to come if he had that kind of tenacity. We wouldn't be talking about Schaub playing on the last year of his contract & having to prove his toughness.

The injuries don't bother me one bit.

Double Barrel
07-16-2012, 03:33 PM
Take Schaub out of it. If you were a QB hungry team, would you feel good about Tj Yates starting for your club?

I would. I'd still have concerns like anyone else, but I would still beleive in the guy to grow into the job.

WellKurt Warner is going into the Hall of Fame, he's won multiple Super Bowls & was an MVP. & he's put up some stats.


Actaully Warner has one Super Bowl win, in 2000 againt the Titans.

He lost two. One with the Rams (2001 vs. Patriots) and the other as a Cardinal (2008 vs. the Steelers).

Still a great QB, though.

ObsiWan
07-16-2012, 10:28 PM
Take Schaub out of it. If you were a QB hungry team, would you feel good about Tj Yates starting for your club?

if this is your bottom line question my answer is no. The Yates I saw last season is not the long term answer for this franchise; not like Luck, Newton, RG3, et. al. are the perceived long term answers for their respective teams.

I could be all wrong but something tells me that if Schaub's injury had been career-ending, Smithiak would be looking for someone else to start.

infantrycak
07-17-2012, 12:02 AM
if this is your bottom line question my answer is no. The Yates I saw last season is not the long term answer for this franchise; not like Luck, Newton, RG3, et. al. are the perceived long term answers for their respective teams.

I could be all wrong but something tells me that if Schaub's injury had been career-ending, Smithiak would be looking for someone else to start.

What he said.

I like TJ's long term potential but I swear it is like someone has been handing out ecstasy pills along with pictures of TJ. I mean seriously, we had a projection today TJ would be closer to Brees than Schaub and TJ hasn't even sniffed Schaub level yet.

But I love how folks keep coming up with new ways to slag Schaub. The leadership thing didn't pan out so well since every player and coach around say he is a leader so the new euphemism for "I don't like him but can't really explain it" is "he doesn't have grit like TJ."

thunderkyss
07-17-2012, 12:22 AM
What he said.

I like TJ's long term potential but I swear it is like someone has been handing out ecstasy pills along with pictures of TJ. I mean seriously, we had a projection today TJ would be closer to Brees than Schaub and TJ hasn't even sniffed Schaub level yet.

Personally I thought that was just an acknowledgement that there are different QBs. Not necessarily that Brees is on another level, just different types of QBs.

But I love how folks keep coming up with new ways to slag Schaub. The leadership thing didn't pan out so well since every player and coach around say he is a leader so the new euphemism for "I don't like him but can't really explain it" is "he doesn't have grit like TJ."

Coach speak. Unless he's really screwing the pooch, you're not going to find anyone associated with this organization saying that Schaub is anything less than a leader because they know as the QB he is supposed to be.

I don't see it. I see a quitter.

Many people will tell you Donovan McNabb was a great leader for his team when he was the QB for the teams he QBed. I don't think he ever was. Too childish. Great talent. Poor leader.

infantrycak
07-17-2012, 12:55 AM
Coach speak. Unless he's really screwing the pooch, you're not going to find anyone associated with this organization saying that Schaub is anything less than a leader because they know as the QB he is supposed to be.

I don't see it. I see a quitter.

Yeah 'cuz Seth Payne has any reason to engage in coach speak. Dude essentially never played with Kubiak, got cut by him and never played with Schaub - now there is only one person he played with on the team. Yet he went out of his way to use Schaub as an example of leadership while talking to a different team.

Of course "coach speak" is the easy out for anyone who wants to disagree with players.

Sorry you see quitter - for you that is.

thunderkyss
07-17-2012, 03:00 AM
Sorry you see quitter - for you that is.

I'm not the only one. It's not a figment of my imagination. You may not agree with that assesment.

But that's ok. There will be questions of Schaub's leadership until there ain't. It doesn't matter how many players say what...

People watch Schaub & for whatever reason they don't see a leader. We don't see a guy who can win a Super Bowl. Sure he can be on a team that wins a Super Bowl like some other QBs have.

He played in what, 8 games last year. How many did he win? None. He's a system QB that played the system well. The Defense won most of the games that Arian Foster didn't.

I'm not hating on Schaub. He's a good guy. He's a good QB. He's just not a leader.

ObsiWan
07-17-2012, 06:23 AM
Personally I thought that was just an acknowledgement that there are different QBs. Not necessarily that Brees is on another level, just different types of QBs.


Coach speak. Unless he's really screwing the pooch, you're not going to find anyone associated with this organization saying that Schaub is anything less than a leader because they know as the QB he is supposed to be.

I don't see it. I see a quitter.


You'll have to elaborate here.
Injury prone, perhaps. But a quitter? No.
A quitter wouldn't have been on the sidelines helping TJ when ever and wherever he could like Schaub did. A quitter wouldn't have been pushing himself to rehab ahead of schedule (if you believe the team propaganda). A quitter wouldn't have kept playing with the injuries he had before Haynesworth finished him off. And we all saw that Schaub wasn't 100% but he didn't take himself out, he kept going ...playing thru the little nicks... and even after planet Haynesworth landed on him, he finished out the half until the doctors pulled him out of the game.

But it's totally possible I missed something you picked up on so I need a bit of clarification on this quitter assessment.
:fans:

Rey
07-17-2012, 06:42 AM
I could be all wrong but something tells me that if Schaub's injury had been career-ending, Smithiak would be looking for someone else to start.

I disagree with that.

If that were the case they'd have brought in better competition for the #2 position.

Schaub coming off a serious injury (again) and they are going to go with a guy they don't have much faith in as the back up when they clearly are thinking superbowl?

I doubt that. Based in past history there is a good chance Yates could be qb'ing this team at some point next year and not due to a blowout.

Based on what you saw last season? Pfffttt. Then you talk about two qb's that haven't played a down of NFL football as a comparison?

Yates was a rookie last year. Had he played much better than he did schaub would be out of a job right now. Yates rookie mistakes is what has allowed schaub to re claim his job.

thunderkyss
07-17-2012, 07:43 AM
A quitter wouldn't have kept playing with the injuries he had before Haynesworth finished him off. And we all saw that Schaub wasn't 100% but he didn't take himself out, he kept going ...playing thru the little nicks... and even after planet Haynesworth landed on him, he finished out the half until the doctors pulled him out of the game.

You're right. He definitely deserves credit for that. That was tough.


But it's totally possible I missed something you picked up on so I need a bit of clarification on this quitter assessment.
:fans:

Same thing I've been saying. He gives up to easily on plays. IMO. Granted, I don't have the same vantage point as he does, or the players & coaches. But that's what I see.

HOU-TEX
07-17-2012, 10:28 AM
TK, I sometimes wonder if you truly believe some of the hogwash you type or just simply being the contrarian of the board.

I'm not going to say that Schaub's the answer, but he's far better and more experienced than TJ. I've been watching the entire season over again and it's clear as day the offense is twice as productive with Schaub.

Good grief...we need some dadgum training camp around here! Rookies report Sunday

Double Barrel
07-17-2012, 12:19 PM
if this is your bottom line question my answer is no. The Yates I saw last season is not the long term answer for this franchise; not like Luck, Newton, RG3, et. al. are the perceived long term answers for their respective teams.

On the bolded, I do not see anyone advocating a position that TJ is like Luck, Newton, RG3.

But, I got news for ya', pal, unless you want to endure another 2-14 season for a top pick in the draft, we ain't getting a Luck, Newton, RG3, etc., any time soon.

So we either trade for value (i.e. Schaub) or we try to find a gem the rock pile (hopefully TJ).

I think it's delusional and a little shallow to even bring those names into the conversation, simply because it's unrealistic scenarios. Almost like bringing Manning and Brady into a conversation about Schaub. It is pointless.

I could be all wrong but something tells me that if Schaub's injury had been career-ending, Smithiak would be looking for someone else to start.

I always thought you liked and respected Kubiak.

This statement tells me that you are questioning his analytical skills and coaching choices at a position that is his known strength (QBs).

Like Rey mentioned, I think Kubiak would have found someone for the #2 spot if he did not believe in TJ. Schaub's health is unknown quantity for a 16+ game schedule right now. That's not a knock on the guy, but just the reality of a QB coming off a severe injury that has been known to end careers.

You cannot have it both ways. You either believe Kubiak's judgment on QBs, or you don't.

The Pencil Neck
07-17-2012, 12:21 PM
Same thing I've been saying. He gives up to easily on plays. IMO. Granted, I don't have the same vantage point as he does, or the players & coaches. But that's what I see.

GRAMMAR NAZI: "too easily." :kitten:

But seriously, giving up on plays and being a quitter are two totally different things to me.

Schaub has shown the ability to stand in the pocket and deliver when the hit is coming. But he's been taught to get rid of the ball rather than take a negative play and that's something that's developed as time has gone on. Lots of times what you're calling "giving up too early" is actually making an intelligent play.

Lots of QBs hold the ball too long and then either take the sack or force the ball into coverage and a possible int. Schaub getting rid of the ball like he does is a sign, to me, of his maturity more than a red-flag about his mental state.

Being a quitter, on the other hand, is a different and much more serious charge. That means not even trying. That means ignoring down and distance and laying down and taking sacks out of fear and not really trying. I've never seen Schaub do that. He's always been good in pressure situations. He's always seemed to be trying to win the game instead of just survive it.

Being a quitter is having a hangnail and going on injured reserve. Schaub has played through a lot of injuries. He has to be in really bad shape to be taken off the field.

That's not a quitter to me.

TejasTom
07-17-2012, 01:53 PM
Schaub has shown the ability to stand in the pocket and deliver when the hit is coming. But he's been taught to get rid of the ball rather than take a negative play and that's something that's developed as time has gone on. Lots of times what you're calling "giving up too early" is actually making an intelligent play.

Lots of QBs hold the ball too long and then either take the sack or force the ball into coverage and a possible int. Schaub getting rid of the ball like he does is a sign, to me, of his maturity more than a red-flag about his mental state...

MSR.

Schaub seemed much better about throwing it away last year then in the past. I hope TJ can work through his progressions better and learn when to throw it away. Perhaps the Baltimore game would have been different if TJ had not tried to force too many.

beerlover
07-17-2012, 02:14 PM
MSR.

Schaub seemed much better about throwing it away last year then in the past. I hope TJ can work through his progressions better and learn when to throw it away. Perhaps the Baltimore game would have been different if TJ had not tried to force too many.

TJ needs to relax a little, if possible he was trying to hard to make plays. He needs to trust his release, focus on a smaller more defined window & let it go. The revamped OL has a chance to actually afford whoever is the Texans QB more time as Butler has a longer reach & athletic speed to thwart some of those blind side speed rushers Winston would get burned on. Schaubs speed of play development comes via vision & quickness of recognition. Yates has better foot speed & release. I just hope Texans don't make the same mistake Chargers did in Rivers vs Brees battle?

Either way it's a nice problem to have, for a change.:specnatz:

thunderkyss
07-17-2012, 03:20 PM
TK, I sometimes wonder if you truly believe some of the hogwash you type or just simply being the contrarian of the board.

I'm not going to say that Schaub's the answer, but he's far better and more experienced than TJ. I've been watching the entire season over again and it's clear as day the offense is twice as productive with Schaub.

Good grief...we need some dadgum training camp around here! Rookies report Sunday

I've never said that Tj was better than Schaub. I said he's shown more grit. But that doesn't make him a better leader or QB.

Schaub is hands down the better of the two right now.

All I said is if the situation were different, I would be happy if Tj were starting for my team. At the same time I'm glad that he is sitting on the bench and will be allowed to come along slowly, thanks to Schaub being the competent QB that he is.

I think Schaub is good enough to win a Super Bowl with this team. I don't think Schaub is good enough to win a Super Bowl for this team. That's a big difference. There aren't many QBs out there that can win a Super Bowl for a team. I'm not putting Schaub in the category of QBs whose team won a Super Bowl in spite of him ala Dilfer or Johnson.

thunderkyss
07-17-2012, 03:37 PM
But seriously, giving up on plays and being a quitter are two totally different things to me.

Schaub has shown the ability to stand in the pocket and deliver when the hit is coming. But he's been taught to get rid of the ball rather than take a negative play and that's something that's developed as time has gone on. Lots of times what you're calling "giving up too early" is actually making an intelligent play.

That's not a quitter to me.

Trust me, it used to upset me 2 no end when Carr would take a sack & he could have just easily thrown the ball away. There were several times when I would have liked too have seen him take a quick scan & chunk it in the stands if he didn't like what he saw.... or tuck it & run towards the first down marker that is.

So I understand teaching the QB 2 throw the ball away & live two play another day (or down in this case).

But I've seen to many plays (some on third down) where there isn't anyone near Schaub and instead of holding it for another second or two, he's already tossed it out of bounds.

I complained about Schaub doing this before the 2009 season. 2009, he played a completely different game. Like he wasn't going too let his team lose. He wasn't going to let the punter on the field. He was going two make something happen. I miss that guy. That's all I'm saying. That's the guy we need to go where we want to go..... CHamPionshIP

Now I'll say this. All the while I've been complaining about Schaub I've also been complaining about not having any real talent at the skill position for him. 2009 was the year Jacoby looked like he was going to be something. OD got hurt halfway through the season, but looked like he was going to break 1000 yards. Andre took it to another level. And we didn't have a running game, so he had to do something.

So we'll see.

BullBlitz
07-17-2012, 08:59 PM
Yeah 'cuz Seth Payne has any reason to engage in coach speak. Dude essentially never played with Kubiak, got cut by him and never played with Schaub - now there is only one person he played with on the team. Yet he went out of his way to use Schaub as an example of leadership while talking to a different team.

Of course "coach speak" is the easy out for anyone who wants to disagree with players.

Sorry you see quitter - for you that is.

I haven't seen enough of Matt in must-win situations to form much of an opinion regarding his leadership.

But I hope we get to see a lot more of TJ this season.

infantrycak
07-17-2012, 11:27 PM
I haven't seen enough of Matt in must-win situations to form much of an opinion regarding his leadership.

But I hope we get to see a lot more of TJ this season.

Schaub has a very good come back record. What do you need to see? Oh but you already formed the opinion you want to see more TJ.

Why would you ever want to see your back up QB in the game much less one who so far has averaged 100 yds and 10 pts a game less on top of a 1 to 2 INT ratio instead of 2 to 1?

ObsiWan
07-18-2012, 02:46 AM
On the bolded, I do not see anyone advocating a position that TJ is like Luck, Newton, RG3.

But, I got news for ya', pal, unless you want to endure another 2-14 season for a top pick in the draft, we ain't getting a Luck, Newton, RG3, etc., any time soon.

So we either trade for value (i.e. Schaub) or we try to find a gem the rock pile (hopefully TJ).

I think it's delusional and a little shallow to even bring those names into the conversation, simply because it's unrealistic scenarios. Almost like bringing Manning and Brady into a conversation about Schaub. It is pointless.
Those names were only used as an example to clarify my response to TK, not to suggest we should have gone after a top ten pick. Remember, TK's question was; is Yates a starting-caliber, franchise QB? ...like Luck or RG3 (or Dalton) were drafted to be. I actually agree with what your saying. Yates shouldn't be in the conversation with those guys.

Remember when we picked up Yates, we were sitting in pretty fair shape at QB. Schaub had just completed two full seasons without missing a single game and we had a freshly rehabilitated & refocused Hot Tub boy as our experienced backup. Yates, at that time, was just what you referred to, a potential "gem in the rock pile"; someone who Kubiak could possibly take a year or two to develop to step in for Hot Tub Boy as the #2 or, if we're really lucky, to be the number one if Schaub went nuts and wanted top-five QB money next year.


I always thought you liked and respected Kubiak.

This statement tells me that you are questioning his analytical skills and coaching choices at a position that is his known strength (QBs).

Like Rey mentioned, I think Kubiak would have found someone for the #2 spot if he did not believe in TJ. Schaub's health is unknown quantity for a 16+ game schedule right now. That's not a knock on the guy, but just the reality of a QB coming off a severe injury that has been known to end careers.

You cannot have it both ways. You either believe Kubiak's judgment on QBs, or you don't.

I do believe in Kubiak's ability to assess and coach up QBs.

And Kubiak DID bring in someone to press Yates for the #2 spot - see John Beck; I think he's here to be more than just a "camp arm". If Yates doesn't show sufficient progress and Beck shows he has something left, look for Beck to move up to #2. Before you descend upon me, I fully understand those are two big "IFs".

My reference to Schaub was totally a hypothetical scenario. I'm saying that IF Schaub's injury had been known - by the end of last season - that he would never take another NFL snap, I'm saying Smithiak would have spent the off-season looking for someone with more experience to come in and compete with Yates for the #1 QB spot. Maybe he would have invited Delhomme back. Maybe <shudder> he invites Rex Grossman back. Maybe <shudder again> we don't cut Leinhart. Maybe we use our early picks for potential stud QB (although I doubt it - I can't see us paying the premium it would have taken to move up to get someone like Tannehill).

And my faith in Kubiak as a QB evaluator is exactly why I say that I just could not see Kubiak rolling into this season, with Schaub having retired, with Yates as his #1 and Keenum and Beck as the #2 & 3 (you pick the order) without him bringing an experienced QB to challenge Yates for that #1 job.

Lurvinator11
07-18-2012, 10:15 AM
Man. Talk about Hi-Jacking a thread. Am I right?

Lurvinator11
07-18-2012, 10:31 AM
Okay, I haven't read all of the points, I skimmed through most of them. I just want to make this point though. We all know Schaub is capable, he just needed better talent around him and supporting him. 2009 for example, he was top 3 in passing right? That was with an injured OD and no running game to speak of. Which means no passing threat to the RB, since we didn't have a consistent back. Yet he was still able to to be top 3 in the league. Even last year, he had better talent, but everyone was injured. Foster missing the first 3, AJ missing a good amount of time, and just a few others from time to time all the way up until Tampa. Schaub is not the perfect QB, but he at least utilizes his options better than what TJ did. Yates has his moments, like the drive in cincy, and the first playoff game, but other games he didn't do as much as I believe Schaub could have done. That can be rookie mistakes. Fine. But right now, Schaub is the guy, and TJ is lightyears away from that period. Like I said earlier, Schaub is capable of leading us to the big game. He is a better than average game manager. I'll agree with TKS when he says Schaub won't win one for us. If anyone is going to contribute the most to winning the Super Bowl, it is going to be Our DEFENSE, and ARIAN FOSTER. But as long as we have Schaub in, things will go a lot smoother than it would be with Yates at the helm.

JMO

HOU-TEX
07-18-2012, 10:38 AM
I haven't seen enough of Matt in must-win situations to form much of an opinion regarding his leadership.

But I hope we get to see a lot more of TJ this season.

So you hope to see an offense that scores around 18 points per game vs an offense that can put up 27+ per? Makes sense. :rolleyes:

Double Barrel
07-18-2012, 12:28 PM
Those names were only used as an example to clarify my response to TK, not to suggest we should have gone after a top ten pick. Remember, TK's question was; is Yates a starting-caliber, franchise QB? ...like Luck or RG3 (or Dalton) were drafted to be. I actually agree with what your saying. Yates shouldn't be in the conversation with those guys.

Remember when we picked up Yates, we were sitting in pretty fair shape at QB. Schaub had just completed two full seasons without missing a single game and we had a freshly rehabilitated & refocused Hot Tub boy as our experienced backup. Yates, at that time, was just what you referred to, a potential "gem in the rock pile"; someone who Kubiak could possibly take a year or two to develop to step in for Hot Tub Boy as the #2 or, if we're really lucky, to be the number one if Schaub went nuts and wanted top-five QB money next year.




I do believe in Kubiak's ability to assess and coach up QBs.

And Kubiak DID bring in someone to press Yates for the #2 spot - see John Beck; I think he's here to be more than just a "camp arm". If Yates doesn't show sufficient progress and Beck shows he has something left, look for Beck to move up to #2. Before you descend upon me, I fully understand those are two big "IFs".

My reference to Schaub was totally a hypothetical scenario. I'm saying that IF Schaub's injury had been known - by the end of last season - that he would never take another NFL snap, I'm saying Smithiak would have spent the off-season looking for someone with more experience to come in and compete with Yates for the #1 QB spot. Maybe he would have invited Delhomme back. Maybe <shudder> he invites Rex Grossman back. Maybe <shudder again> we don't cut Leinhart. Maybe we use our early picks for potential stud QB (although I doubt it - I can't see us paying the premium it would have taken to move up to get someone like Tannehill).

And my faith in Kubiak as a QB evaluator is exactly why I say that I just could not see Kubiak rolling into this season, with Schaub having retired, with Yates as his #1 and Keenum and Beck as the #2 & 3 (you pick the order) without him bringing an experienced QB to challenge Yates for that #1 job.

Good post, man. Just to clarify, I have never advocated TJ over Schaub. I think Matt is a good (potentially great) QB that can lead us to the promised land if he can stay in the games.

Now about Yates; I think it is safe to assume that all fans value a championship title over a HoF QB.

That given being said, let's look at a 'scale' of Super Bowl winning QBs:

Trent Dilfer---------------------------------------------Joe Montana

On one end we have the G.O.A.T., and on the other, a QB who was a 'game manager' that avoided mistakes to let his team win games.

So the question about Yates is about his potential to fall somewhere on that scale. Can he be as good as a Trent Dilfer-type QB, who manages games and let's the team around him win games?

Because in the end, that's what this is all about. We need a backup QB that can step up, fill some big shoes, and win some games on the road to a championship.

Like you, I'm not convinced that TJ is that guy. But, I'm also not convinced that he can't be that guy, either. I try to think posiitve that he has the potential in him to be better than Dilfer, but that's just a chosen perspective on my part. I hope we do not find out for awhile.

p.s if TJ can't beat out John Beck, then cut his ass and develop Keenum for the no. 2 spot. I shudder to thing of Beck behind the center, and if it comes to that, I think I will just shut down for the season. We aren't doing anything positive with that lug nut. And for the record, yes, I am questioning Kubiak's decision to bring him into camp, but I think the Shanahan connection has something to do with it.

Rey
07-18-2012, 12:39 PM
So you hope to see an offense that scores around 18 points per game vs an offense that can put up 27+ per? Makes sense. :rolleyes:

I'll preface this with again saying schaub should start.

But are you suggesting that Yates won't get any better and that schaub might not struggle some coming off that injury?

18 pts/gm for a late round rookie suddenly thrown into the fire. I'd expect Yates to have grown at least a little bit and be able to lead the team to more scoring drives than he did last year.

Seems to me like people who like Yates are imagining the growth he may have and it seems like folks who detract from him don't really ponder about him growing off of what was actually a pretty good rookie campaign; all things considered.

None of us know how good or bad Yates will be in the future, but i think that is the crux of the debate.

I can't really knock either side, but I do think Yates future is bright based on some things I saw from him last year. He has a lot of work to do, but I thought the kid was really good.

HOU-TEX
07-18-2012, 12:44 PM
I'll preface this with again saying schaub should start.

But are you suggesting that Yates won't get any better and that schaub might not struggle some coming off that injury?

18 pts/gm for a late round rookie suddenly thrown into the fire. I'd expect Yates to have grown at least a little bit and be able to lead the team to more scoring drives than he did last year.

Seems to me like people who like Yates are imagining the growth he may have and it seems like folks who detract from him don't really ponder about him growing off of what was actually a pretty good rookie campaign; all things considered.

None of us know how good or bad Yates will be in the future, but i think that is the crux of the debate.

I can't really knock either side, but I do think Yates future is bright based on some things I saw from him last year. He has a lot of work to do, but I thought the kid was really good.

Sure, he could grow into being a good QB. The poster I quoted said he'd like to see TJ play a lot THIS year.

beerlover
07-18-2012, 01:52 PM
Gary Kubiak was very careful with Yates in sense of keeping things simple & not throwing the whole play book @ him. Obviously Schaub has access to the entire playbook something to consider in this whole points per game argument. Not to mention level of defense rises with playoff implications. Also remember a Schaub coming out of Virgina & I doubt he would have done any better as a rookie than Yates did. FYI :kitten:

ObsiWan
07-18-2012, 01:57 PM
Gary Kubiak was very careful with Yates in sense of keeping things simple & not throwing the whole play book @ him. Obviously Schaub has access to the entire playbook something to consider in this whole points per game argument. Not to mention level of defense rises with playoff implications. Also remember a Schaub coming out of Virgina & I doubt he would have done any better as a rookie than Yates did. FYI :kitten:

I'll give you the abbreviated playbook argument but not the increase in level (I figured you meant "quality") of defense Yates faced. Not when we're talking the inability to score more than 16 pts against Carolina and Indy.

infantrycak
07-18-2012, 02:02 PM
Also remember a Schaub coming out of Virgina & I doubt he would have done any better as a rookie than Yates did. FYI :kitten:

Why? But for an injury his senior year Schaub was looking at not just going 2 rounds earlier than TJ but possibly 4 certainly 3. Their college records aren't even close.

The Pencil Neck
07-18-2012, 02:45 PM
Because in the end, that's what this is all about. We need a backup QB that can step up, fill some big shoes, and win some games on the road to a championship.

Like you, I'm not convinced that TJ is that guy.

Um. What about the Falcons game and the first Bengals game? He needed to step up and win some games and he did. He even won a road game against a playoff team. And then he won a playoff game. All as a rookie.

If Schaub had been able to get healthy in time for the Ravens game, we would have been golden.

Even if TJ doesn't improve, he's already done what you're saying you would want him to do. You're not sure he can do it even though he's already done it. And he should be better in the future than he was last year.

Double Barrel
07-18-2012, 03:03 PM
Um. What about the Falcons game and the first Bengals game? He needed to step up and win some games and he did. He even won a road game against a playoff team. And then he won a playoff game. All as a rookie.

If Schaub had been able to get healthy in time for the Ravens game, we would have been golden.

Even if TJ doesn't improve, he's already done what you're saying you would want him to do. You're not sure he can do it even though he's already done it. And he should be better in the future than he was last year.

I agree with you. I've actually been making the same argument further upstream. My recent posts with ObsiWan has been more of trying to find middle ground between the two sides.

I should have clarified that I'd like to see him improve his game with consistent solid play. He made rookie mistakes last season, and I do not hold that against him like others seem to do.

His successes last season is the reason I've got faith in him. He showed some signs of clutch performance that indicated to me that he could eventually be Schaub's successor.

bayoudreamn
07-18-2012, 05:33 PM
if this is your bottom line question my answer is no. The Yates I saw last season is not the long term answer for this franchise; not like Luck, Newton, RG3, et. al. are the perceived long term answers for their respective teams.

I could be all wrong but something tells me that if Schaub's injury had been career-ending, Smithiak would be looking for someone else to start.

Agreed, Obi....

I think Keenum is an interesting pick. For me, the question is why (but I like it, I like the guy's game). I think there are a number of possibilities that are all arguable but no clear answer, so I'm not making an argument for any of them. I'm not one to make these endless arguments ad nauseum (not saying you are...more of a reaction to the board at large). The advantage of Keenum and Yates for me is that they both have a favorable build for durability to me than Shaub and his bird legs. I used to have a friend at the gym who was like Shaub, kind of. This particular guy had amazing knowledge and success in sculpting his body....worked as a personal trainer. But he had legs that didn't develop musculature, bird legs.......and it always limited the impression of what he was capable of overall. I know Shaub is a worker and he's dedicated and driven....it's just that he's built with certain limitations.

That said, the pick says we need depth, we need training camp bodies, we need more options for development, or any number of relative subtleties.....the bottom line for me is that I think that Shaub is as good as he's ever going to get......and that concerns me. People like to point out ppg last year with Shaub in the game. I don't. I get nervous when he holds the ball....I get nervous when the stats sheet shows that he hit 4 receivers in the game and Brees hit 9.....I get nervous when he spends half of every year limping around. All of that said.....TJ is not an upgrade today. Looking back at last year and rating Shaub's production when he was healthy....I didn't see it as one of his better years. The expectation is set....whether it's 8 wins or any number higher that gets us into the playoffs this year.....every player has to elevate their game at some point this year if this team is to reach all of it's goals and I'm hoping they all elevate their play together throughout the playoffs.

thunderkyss
07-18-2012, 07:57 PM
Why? But for an injury his senior year Schaub was looking at not just going 2 rounds earlier than TJ but possibly 4 certainly 3. Their college records aren't even close.

I don't understand this at all. As we've seen, Schaub is just as good as he was before the college injury. Why should his draft-stock take a hit? Then imagine some other team would have picked him..... say Dallas, or Washington, even Miami, where he would have had a legit shot at a starting position. Keep in mind, I know that's the way it goes, I'm just saying I don't understand why it does.

Of course, that also raises the question, how good would he have been, if he started right away.

& to me, the biggest danger to starting right away, is a confidence question. You're going to take some shots, you're going to get punched in the mouth. Some guys can take that & keep fighting. Other guys can't.

Schaub was lucky enough to learn the game, get acclimated to the speed & talent, then he came here, where everyone (at least I was) was happy to win 8 games.

Lienart is another example. He was a shoe in as a top 5 pick. But he stayed for his senior season, played well, but still took a draft hit. Not as bad as Schuabs, but a hit non-the-less.

infantrycak
07-18-2012, 08:46 PM
I don't understand this at all.

Don't get what? Schaub did better in college. He has done better in the NFL. A statement TJ would have done just as well is absurd.

thunderkyss
07-18-2012, 08:59 PM
Don't get what? Schaub did better in college. He has done better in the NFL. A statement TJ would have done just as well is absurd.

I thought I was pretty clear.

As we've seen, Schaub is just as good as he was before the college injury. Why should his draft-stock take a hit?

Just doesn't make sense to me is all.

Schaub's been hurt most of his NFL career, but if we were drafting today, you wouldn't chose Losman over Schaub would you?

drs23
07-18-2012, 09:21 PM
I don't understand this at all. As we've seen, Schaub is just as good as he was before the college injury. Why should his draft-stock take a hit? Then imagine some other team would have picked him.....

idonno: TK. Why did Jared Crick drop from a probable first to hang around for us to pick him up in the fourth?

infantrycak
07-18-2012, 09:36 PM
I thought I was pretty clear.

Just doesn't make sense to me is all.

As we've seen, Schaub is just as good as he was before the college injury. Why should his draft-stock take a hit?

Seriously? After his junior year Schaub was in the discussion for the Heisman. Then he got injured, missed some games and fell to the 3rd round. Do you really not understand that?

The Pencil Neck
07-18-2012, 09:58 PM
Agreed, Obi....

I think Keenum is an interesting pick.

Just a quibble but technically, Keenum wasn't a "pick."

The Pencil Neck
07-18-2012, 10:01 PM
Just doesn't make sense to me is all.

Schaub's been hurt most of his NFL career, but if we were drafting today, you wouldn't chose Losman over Schaub would you?

I think you're saying "if we were to REDRAFT..." which is not what anyone else is talking about. Schaub's draft stock isn't a present tense thing, it's a past tense thing. His stock was high, then he got injured, and his stock fell. No one really knew if he was going to recover from that or if he was going to be injury prone or what.

You're looking at it in hindsight and the Cak is talking about what actually happened.

ObsiWan
07-18-2012, 10:05 PM
Just a quibble but technically, Keenum wasn't a "pick."
In the spirit of "quibbling"
he was selected, right?
we called him after the draft, right...?
so, in a manner of speaking, he was "picked".

I like quibbling much better than squabbling :D

The Pencil Neck
07-18-2012, 10:14 PM
In the spirit of "quibbling"
he was selected, right?
we called him after the draft, right...?
so, in a manner of speaking, he was "picked".

I like quibbling much better than squabbling :D

No.

It's probably the other way around. Keenum selected us.

More than one team almost definitely called him and he chose us for one reason or another. Just like multiple teams contacted Arian and we got him because we offered a bigger contract.

There is the possibility that we're the only team that contacted him, but I doubt it.

beerlover
07-19-2012, 12:15 AM
Seriously? After his junior year Schaub was in the discussion for the Heisman. Then he got injured, missed some games and fell to the 3rd round. Do you really not understand that?

Your missing the whole point of this thread which it give "some off season love for TJ Yates."

Seriously, part really irks me so I must respond. Schaub had difficulty holding down the starting job as a Virginia Cavalier. First year (Freshman) red-shirted. Then he couldn't beat out fellow red-shirted freshman (Where is Waldo candidate) Bryson Spinner. Next year (red-shirt sophmore) they split QB duties evenly, guess Schaub was developing & gaining ground. So 2002 Spinner transferred leaving starting QB position vacant for Matt to assume, however redshirt freshman Marques Hagans briefly won the starting role beginning of season, why I wonder? It must have really motivated Matt because from that point on in his Junior season he excelled & became mentioned as a possible Heisman candidate. Funny thing happened on the way to New York to collect his hardware, well actually first game of Senior season, Matt Schaub suffered a shoulder injury (I remember seeing Schaub walking to the sideline slumped as a Texan from similar shoulder condition). Even with red-shirting, splitting/sharing snaps with other QB's Matt still holds most of Virginia passing marks 7,502 yards, attempts 1,069, completions 716, TD's 56 & 67% completion average just to name a few.

But wait, TJ also holds some records of his own, lets see how they stack up. Yates threw for over 9,000 yards, 9,377 yards to exact in his Tar Heel career. 1277 attempts with 795 completions, 58 TD's with 62.3% completion avg. for a total QB rating of 131.7. Hardly chopped liver or over matched when compared to Matt.

Comparing two as back-ups Matt had two starts in three years with other reps sprinkled in to push his total yardage over 1,000 yards (1033) with 6 TD's. His rookie year included one start, in 6 games he was 33 of 70 for 330 yards, one TD & a QB rating of 42.0.

Yates also saw action in 6 games his rookie campaign, but started 5 (not counting playoffs). He was 82 of 134 for 949 yards & three TD's with QB rating of 80.7. TJ then went on to lead the Texans to their first playoff win in team history & despite having trouble the following game against a veteran Baltimore Raven defense, played undaunted or deterred & pressed the attack against formidable odds, accepting defeat with grace & determination to exact revenge next opportunity he gets (well that's a little over the top but I'm just a Texan fan getting ready for this season).

It's not always who looks prettiest or has all the accolades & statistics, in a fight its usually the last man standing :specnatz:

infantrycak
07-19-2012, 01:07 AM
Your missing the whole point of this thread which it give "some off season love for TJ Yates."

OK I guess I did miss that the entire point of this thread was to schlob TJ's knob. I'll leave yanking the man handle to you.

People are really showing their football acumen on this subject. To argue TJ is currently within the same ball park as Schaub is insane.

76Texan
07-19-2012, 02:08 AM
Yates had one year of HS ball; Schaub was a 3-yr starter.


Both Red-shirted.

76Texan
07-19-2012, 02:17 AM
Yates then threw 18 Ints in his first yr in college; Schaub only one.

Wait, Yates had a gazillion attemptsto bring the ratio of INT/per pass attemptsto less than 5% while Schaub lone INT represent 12.5%

It doesn't matter the number, Schaub was on the bench and Yates was slinging, despite limited experience in HS.

Lurvinator11
07-19-2012, 04:08 AM
Your missing the whole point of this thread which it give "some off season love for TJ Yates."





Well actually, the whole point of the thread was just poking fun at Yates....

thunderkyss
07-19-2012, 04:45 AM
OK I guess I did miss that the entire point of this thread was to schlob TJ's knob. I'll leave yanking the man handle to you.

People are really showing their football acumen on this subject. To argue TJ is currently within the same ball park as Schaub is insane.

Other than the post you replied to, no one else put him in the same ball-park as Schaub, and then that was really compare g their college careers. Yates was being compared to other rookie Qbs for the majority of this thread.

Schuab's the starter, gives this team the best chance to win, most everyone Agrees on that.

thunderkyss
07-19-2012, 08:17 AM
But since we're talking about Schuab, should he have started over Michael Vick in Atlanta?

The Pencil Neck
07-19-2012, 11:08 AM
But since we're talking about Schuab, should he have started over Michael Vick in Atlanta?

That depends entirely on your offensive philosophy.

You shouldn't draft a guy like Vick unless your offensive philosophy is going to be built around what that sort of guy can do. And if you're going to do that, then you should draft a guy with a similar skill-set to be your backup.

Atlanta made a huge mistake, imo, in selecting two guys with polar opposite abilities and skills.

I prefer the Schaub type of QB to the Vick type of QB. So, if it had been my team, I wouldn't have drafted Vick in the first place. Stuck with the two of them, I would have traded Vick and gone with Schaub.

Rey
07-19-2012, 12:37 PM
But since we're talking about Schuab, should he have started over Michael Vick in Atlanta?

I think Vick is a better player than Schaub and I think if he was on this team in this offense we'd be super explosive and pretty much unstoppable.

Could you imagine Vick's laser arm and speed on those roll outs throwing to Andre Johnson?

And then teams would have to honor his running ability which would make it even easier for Arian....

We'd be sick and I'd take Vick the football player on this team over Schaub all day.

That's in a football vaccum. In real life though I'd take Schaub just because he didn't participate in a brutal dog fighting ring.

beerlover
07-19-2012, 02:19 PM
OK I guess I did miss that the entire point of this thread was to schlob TJ's knob. I'll leave yanking the man handle to you.

that's kinda of personal big ol' mod :zipit:

People are really showing their football acumen on this subject. To argue TJ is currently within the same ball park as Schaub is insane.

Unquestioned, Schaub has about a five or six year head start on TJ. What I'm saying @ paralleled points in their respective careers TJ is surprisingly closer than you think. Kubiak was wise to use a 5th rd. pick on Yates. Even though his final playoff game was less than stellar, I'm not even going to argue for a minute, if Texans had a healthy Schaub they would have beaten Baltimore & advanced with an excellent shot to win the AFC Championship. But still his QB rating was higher than coveted 2nd rd. Bengal QB Andy Dalton (53.8 vs 51.4). That is coincidentally one round before Matt Schaub was selected. I've drafted Matt Schaub two years in a row in our fantasy league & he is a feast or famine FFP. I can't ever see TJ put up big numbers like Schaub but I can see him win more championships, so much for Football Acumen, I plead insanity :wesmantexanfan:

infantrycak
07-19-2012, 06:23 PM
But since we're talking about Schuab, should he have started over Michael Vick in Atlanta?

What Pencil Neck said.

But if you look back, what I said before Schaub was even a rumor for the Texans was Schaub should start with Vick in a dual shotgun formation.

thunderkyss
07-19-2012, 07:51 PM
What Pencil Neck said.

But if you look back, what I said before Schaub was even a rumor for the Texans was Schaub should start with Vick in a dual shotgun formation.

So, even though Schaub played behind Vick, he was completely capable of starting for an NFL team? No?

Whether he was better than Vick or not isn't important. Whether he was ready or not, is the question. Kubiak felt good enough about Schaub to give him the Job before spending 2 seconds with him. Somehow, he knew.

I'm sure there were plenty of people thinking the same about Schaub before he got here. They felt he was tough enough to withstand the rigors of an NFL QB, that he had the work ethic required, that he made more good decisions than bad & was capable of limiting those bad decisions even more.

If you (or anyone for that matter) don't believe Tj is ready, that's fine. I think he is. He may still fall on his face if he were to start now, but he won't be the first QB that someone thought was ready to fail.

infantrycak
07-19-2012, 08:24 PM
So, even though Schaub played behind Vick, he was completely capable of starting for an NFL team? No?

Whether he was better than Vick or not isn't important. Whether he was ready or not, is the question. Kubiak felt good enough about Schaub to give him the Job before spending 2 seconds with him. Somehow, he knew.

The point I was making at the time was one of how to effectively use those two QB's. Schaub is a better pocket passer. Vick is a dangerous long ball and running threat. What I advocated was having both in formation with Schaub as the starter at QB. You wouldn't have been able to stack the line because either Schaub or Vick would have diced your secondary. You can't drop everyone or Vick is going to torch the edges.

If you (or anyone for that matter) don't believe Tj is ready, that's fine. I think he is. He may still fall on his face if he were to start now, but he won't be the first QB that someone thought was ready to fail.

To clarify, you think TJ is a starting NFL QB right now?

thunderkyss
07-19-2012, 09:53 PM
To clarify, you think TJ is a starting NFL QB right now?

Yes, I think Tj is a starting NFL QB in as much as Dalton, Stafford, Bradford, Moore, Sanchez, Tavaris, Alex Smith, McCoy, Gabbert, Kolb, & Ponder are.

Some of those guys are going to be the guys we talk about for years to come. Most of them won't. But someone, somewhere thought enough of them to put them out there & see what they got.

infantrycak
07-19-2012, 10:33 PM
Yes, I think Tj is a starting NFL QB in as much as Dalton, Stafford, Bradford, Moore, Sanchez, Tavaris, Alex Smith, McCoy, Gabbert, Kolb, & Ponder are.

Some of those guys are going to be the guys we talk about for years to come. Most of them won't. But someone, somewhere thought enough of them to put them out there & see what they got.

What the flying squirrel are you smoking? Stafford had over 5000 yds last year with a 3 to 1 TD to INT ratio. I hope he develops and all but WTF makes you think TJ will ever hit that level other than the fact there is a Texan logo on his uniform? I don't expect most of the others you mention to make it as starting QBs for long - so what does that prove?

thunderkyss
07-19-2012, 11:16 PM
I don't expect most of the others you mention to make it as starting QBs for long - so what does that prove?

It proves that starting QBs don't always make it. Whether they were first rounders, or undrafted.

RG III will be a starting NFL QB in a few weeks. What's he done that Tj hasn't?

The Pencil Neck
07-19-2012, 11:23 PM
What the flying squirrel are you smoking?

I'd like to point out that we're supposed to go after the argument and not the poster on this board.

And, yet, most of us have accused TK for smoking something with psychodelic properties at one time or another.

I think we all should tone that back.

I mean, we can all accuse GP of smoking something* and that's OK but we need to lay off TK. He's just expressing his opinion. It's not like he's making up stats and rewriting history.


* Just joking, GP. :fingergun:

infantrycak
07-19-2012, 11:27 PM
It proves that starting QBs don't always make it. Whether they were first rounders, or undrafted.

RG III will be a starting NFL QB in a few weeks. What's he done that Tj hasn't?

Seriously what are you arguing at this point? Is it every single college QB has proven nothing in the NFL and so they are all equal? I mean what is your point? TJ did a barely acceptable job on an excellent team and now people are comparing him to Brees.

bayoudreamn
07-20-2012, 02:14 AM
Just a quibble but technically, Keenum wasn't a "pick."

ok....I'll accept that since obviously you enjoy overreacting......and following your logic, disagree with you by saying technically he is a pick.....he wasn't a "draft choice".....he was an a draft eligible player who was not selected in the draft, thereby leaving him eligible to be 'pick'ed up after the draft by a team wishing to add him to their roster.....which is what the texans did. Please stop creating an argument where there isn't one.

The Pencil Neck
07-20-2012, 02:37 AM
ok....I'll accept that since obviously you enjoy overreacting......and following your logic, disagree with you by saying technically he is a pick.....he wasn't a "draft choice".....he was an a draft eligible player who was not selected in the draft, thereby leaving him eligible to be 'pick'ed up after the draft by a team wishing to add him to their roster.....which is what the texans did. Please stop creating an argument where there isn't one.

The selections a team makes in the draft are their draft picks. The undrafted players they sign after that are not their draft picks.

When a player is not picked in the draft, that player sometimes has their own pick of the team they want to go to. So the "picker" stops being the team and starts being the player.

I've never, ever heard anyone use the term "pick" to refer to an undrafted player and I think you're using the term incorrectly. But like I said, it's just a quibble. No biggie.

bayoudreamn
07-20-2012, 02:50 AM
The selections a team makes in the draft are their draft picks. The undrafted players they sign after that are not their draft picks.

When a player is not picked in the draft, that player sometimes has their own pick of the team they want to go to. So the "picker" stops being the team and starts being the player.

I've never, ever heard anyone use the term "pick" to refer to an undrafted player and I think you're using the term incorrectly. But like I said, it's just a quibble. No biggie.

Your interpretation is noted and I'm fine with allowing your accountability for it. I apologize for misleading you by using the word pick in a way that is foreign to you.

bayoudreamn
07-20-2012, 03:05 AM
It proves that starting QBs don't always make it. Whether they were first rounders, or undrafted.

RG III will be a starting NFL QB in a few weeks. What's he done that Tj hasn't?

I'd like to respond even though I'm not in the conversation.....

RGIII has consistently shown preparedness at the level at which he's played at that particular time throughout college. If polled, a majority....probably a vast majority of respondents ranging from the casual observer to the expert would indicate that they consider RGIII a starting quality NFL quarterback lacking in experience but likely to develop at starting quality expectations. I don't feel confident that the same can be said of TJ and I believe that reflects on his production on the field. If you are confident with that, fine. I'd just rather not make bold statements like that today. I'd actually like to keep my perceptions timely and realistic in the hopes that going out on a limb doesn't become the measure of my contribution to this forum.

ObsiWan
07-20-2012, 03:40 AM
It proves that starting QBs don't always make it. Whether they were first rounders, or undrafted.

RG III will be a starting NFL QB in a few weeks. What's he done that Tj hasn't?

In the off chance that was a serious and not a rhetorical question...

Yates....
Yates played quarterback (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterback) for the North Carolina Tar Heels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina_Tar_Heels_football) at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_North_Carolina_at_Chapel_Hill) from 2007 to 2010. Yates currently holds the school records for total career passing yards, single-season passing yards and single-season total offense, having broken records set by predecessors Darian Durant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darian_Durant) and Charlie "Choo Choo" Justice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Justice_(American_football_player)) during his time at North Carolina.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.J._Yates#cite_note-1) He is a member of the Sigma Chi Fraternity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_Chi_Fraternity).


RGIII
2011 Heisman Trophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisman_Trophy) winner
2011 Associated Press College Football Player of the Year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_Press_College_Football_Player_of_the_Ye ar) winner
2011 Davey O'Brien Award (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davey_O%27Brien_Award) winner
2011 Manning Award (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manning_Award) winner
2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_College_Football_All-America_Team) Consensus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_Football_All-America_Team#NCAA_recognition) All-American
2011 First Team Academic All-Big 12
2011 Finalist for Walter Campbell Player of the Year
2011 Finalist for Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Unitas_Golden_Arm_Award)
2011 Finalist for Wuerffel Trophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuerffel_Trophy)
2011 Semifinalist for Maxwell Award (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell_Award)

and that's just for 2011...

Now Yates does have NFL starting experience and a playoff win on his resume'. And I'll grant you that it's unlikely - but not impossible - that RGIII will add an NFL playoff win to his own resume' in 2012.

thunderkyss
07-20-2012, 04:29 AM
Seriously what are you arguing at this point? Is it every single college QB has proven nothing in the NFL and so they are all equal? I mean what is your point? TJ did a barely acceptable job on an excellent team and now people are comparing him to Brees.

It wasn't me. But I believe they were saying he was more a Brees type, than a Schaub type of QB. Not that he's anywhere near Brees' level.

I haven't seen Keenum play in the NFL. I don't know if he's ready or not. I've seen Gabert..... I don't believe he is ready at all. I've seen Ponder. I think he's ready, just like Tj. Who knows how either are going to turn out? They both have room for growth.

I wouldn't start RG III from day one, or Luck for that matter. I think that would be a mistake. I haven't seen either of them in OTAs or anything, but I would be cautious with both of them. Throw a tackling dummy out there until I'm sure the kid can handle the pressure. If he can remain cool under fire, make good decisions with the football, & not lose the game, then he's ready to see live fire (to start).

drs23
07-20-2012, 10:04 AM
Yes, I think Tj is a starting NFL QB in as much as Dalton, Stafford, Bradford, Moore, Sanchez, Tavaris, Alex Smith, McCoy, Gabbert, Kolb, & Ponder are.

Some of those guys are going to be the guys we talk about for years to come. Most of them won't. But someone, somewhere thought enough of them to put them out there & see what they got.

What the flying squirrel are you smoking? Stafford had over 5000 yds last year with a 3 to 1 TD to INT ratio. I hope he develops and all but WTF makes you think TJ will ever hit that level other than the fact there is a Texan logo on his uniform? I don't expect most of the others you mention to make it as starting QBs for long - so what does that prove?

Cak, to the bolded. I see Dalton & Bradford to be the most likely to be able to step up at some point. Perhaps sooner than later. Perhaps even Ponder if the Vikes can get him a supporting cast.

If you were to cherry pick from these guys, who would you choose to have the best chance to succeed?

thunderkyss
07-20-2012, 03:02 PM
I think you're saying "if we were to REDRAFT..." which is not what anyone else is talking about. Schaub's draft stock isn't a present tense thing, it's a past tense thing. His stock was high, then he got injured, and his stock fell. No one really knew if he was going to recover from that or if he was going to be injury prone or what.

You're looking at it in hindsight and the Cak is talking about what actually happened.

He was a Heisman candidate pre injury. Non throwing shoulder too correct? Right now, we think Matt is the best QB in the division, Lis Frank & all.

I understand it happens.... someone mentioned Jared Crick earlier. I'm just saying I don't understand why it happens. In Schaub's case, I think the correct answer would be that he had one good year & no one knew if he'd be able to repeat. That's most likely what scouts were expecting his senior season (this is just me guessing).

Lienart was "projected" to be the #1 overall pick, had a great senior season & slid to 10. I just think sometimes these "slots" are so finicky, that it doesn't make sense. One day, they're considering Schuab for the Heisman. Three months later & he's a 3rd round pick.