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CloakNNNdagger
06-04-2012, 09:43 AM
Texans G.M. relies on emotional detachment in overhauling roster (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/04/texans-g-m-relies-on-emotional-detachment-in-overhauling-roster/)

Two years ago, the Texans wanted to be the featured team on Hard Knocks. Now, they’re not interested.

They’re not interested because they’re getting attention the old fashioned way: By winning football games.

But the team’s first playoff berth in a decade of existence has been chased by a stunning out-with-the-old-in-with-the-new offseason, during which G.M. Rick Smith has tried to keep up with the Joneses by treating his players like John Does.

“One important thing I’ve learned is when your core changes, you’ve got to be willing to change your philosophy too,” Smith tells Peter King of SI.com. ”Your core of players has to be a living, breathing thing, and you have to be willing to examine it all the time to be sure you’re comfortable with it. The good thing about making those types of decisions is being able to be emotionally detached a bit. I don’t have the attachment to the players that a coach does.”

That lack of attachment has seen Smith move on from linebackers Mario Williams and DeMeco Ryans, along with 40 percent of the team’s stellar offensive line, letting right guard Mike Brisiel leave via free agency and cutting right tackle Eric Winston. (It could have been worse; center Chris Myers hit the market, but he ultimately stayed put.)

As to the departure of the first overall pick in the 2006 draft, Smith was able to rip the “Williams” off the back of the jersey and made the sort of business decision the team made six years earlier, when ignoring the sizzle of Reggie Bush and Vince Young. ”There’s no way to minimize the loss of Mario Williams,” Smith said. “But you turn the tape on from last season, and what players were out there on the field?”

Looking ahead, Smith’s approach means no one is truly safe. If receiver Andre Johnson, whose knee problems already have him on the shelf this offseason, can’t contribute much in 2012 and if the team’s youngsters at the position step up this year, Johnson could (in theory) be elsewhere come 2013. And with quarterback Matt Schaub entering the final year of his contract, Smith apparently feels no compulsion to extend Schaub’s deal, willing instead to take a wait-and-see approach regarding Schaub’s recovery from a serious foot injury — and if necessary to trust T.J. Yates, who led the franchise to its only playoff win.

Regardless of whether the Texans can fend off the Titans for a second straight AFC South crown, Smith’s approach is the tough one, but also the right one. In professional sports, there’s no place for sacred cows, if the overriding goal is to win. And so the “what have you done for me lately?” cliché has become “what will you do for me tomorrow, and how much are you expecting to be paid to do it?”

Successful teams will stubbornly ask that question as to every man on the roster, and they’ll answer it without regard to who the player is.

If Smith has emotionally detached his decision-making from the players, how then have we held onto so many poor performers for such a long time..........Was it just plain poor decision making? And what has been the "entertaining" appeal watching "Hard Knocks?" Watching a train wreck comes to mind. I don't see where any team was helped, but the "warts" were certainly revealed for good drama. Drama, the Texans don't need.

Rey
06-04-2012, 09:53 AM
They were talking about this on the radio this morning. Pretty interesting quotes from Smith.

But that's how it should be. The GM should be the bad guy. Even though we all know that Kubiak is a large part of the decision making process behind the scenes, I like Smith coming out and saying this stuff.

Texan_Bill
06-04-2012, 10:01 AM
Texans GM Emotionally Detached????


As he should be...

Cutblock
06-04-2012, 10:12 AM
Stupid column. I guess Peter King has never heard of the salary cap. It would have been a better column if King had explained how King could have kept all these players without mortgaging the future of the Texans.

I'm going to guess that King knows at least twenty times less about the Texans than the average poster on this board. That's why I go to forums and totally ignore newspaper columns. Especially out of town ones.

Playoffs
06-04-2012, 10:16 AM
Winning division didn't stop Texans from bold offseason changes
Peter King>MONDAY MORNING QB -- Sports Illustrated (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/06/03/mmqb/index.html)

Before I get to the state of the Texans ... here's a preamble about the life span of the best prospects in football.

Six years shouldn't be forever in the NFL, but looking at the top of the 2006 draft is evidence that six years is more than enough to make or break careers. The top 10 players in the 2006 NFL draft have been employed by 19 teams through six seasons -- the smart teams don't stay married to guys when either the marriage isn't working or the priorities have changed.

How the mighty have moved since 2006:
Player, Position: Teams (current one last)
1. Mario Williams, DE: Houston, Buffalo
2. Reggie Bush, RB: New Orleans, Miami
3. Vince Young, QB: Tennessee, Philadelphia, Buffalo
4. D'Brickashaw Ferguson, T: New York Jets
5. A.J. Hawk, LB: Green Bay
6. Vernon Davis, TE: San Francisco
7. Michael Huff, S: Oakland
8. Donte Whitner, S: Buffalo, San Francisco
9. Ernie Sims, LB: Detroit, Philadelphia, Indianapolis, Free agent
10.Matt Leinart, QB: Arizona, Houston, Oakland

One other note before I move on to my point about the Texans. The 2007 draft has something in common with 2006: Four of the 10 top picks in each remain starters for the teams that drafted them. And there isn't a quarterback among the top 10 in those two drafts (Young, Leinart and JaMarcus Russell in 2007) still with the team that drafted him.

But I bring you this list to make a point about the Houston Texans. They had a chance to re-sign the first pick in the 2006 draft, the man they hoped would be their defensive centerpiece and lead them to multiple division titles, Mario Williams. They let him walk. They had a chance to keep Leinart as the backup to Matt Schaub. They let Leinart walk. They had a chance to bring home Young as the backup to Schaub. They watched as Buffalo signed Young.

Instead of keeping the first pick in the 2006 draft, they chose to put their pass-rush future in the hands of the 46th pick in 2009 (Connor Barwin), the 42nd pick in 2011 (Brooks Reed) and the 26th pick this year (Whitney Mercilus). Instead of signing a high-profile backup to Schaub, they chose to put their faith in the 152nd pick in the 2011 draft (T.J. Yates), who quarterbacked the Texans to the franchise's first playoff win last season.

And instead of keeping 4-3 middle linebacker DeMeco Ryans and asking him to play out of scheme in Wade Phillips' 3-4, GM Rick Smith traded the most respected Texan in the locker room to Philadelphia and signed free agent Bradie James to team with Brian Cushing and Darryl Sharpton inside.

For a team that finally won a division and a playoff game in its 10th season, the Texans certainly made a lot of changes. Two-fifths of a stalwart offensive line (right guard Mike Brisiel and right tackle Eric Winston) were allowed to walk. The right side of the linebacker group, Ryans and Williams, are gone too. "There's no way to minimize the loss of Mario Williams,'' Smith said. "But you turn the tape on from last season, and what players were out there on the field?''

Williams missed 11 games with a torn pectoral muscle. Ryans came off the field on third downs. And Houston finished second in the NFL in team defense. In one offseason, core players like Williams, Ryans and Winston were gone; if the Texans could save $2 million on the cap going with Yates over Leinart, so be it. It's GM School 101.

"One important thing I've learned is when your core changes, you've got to be willing to change your philosophy too,'' said Smith. "Your core of players has to be a living, breathing thing, and you have to be willing to examine it all the time to be sure you're comfortable with it. The good thing about making those types of decisions is being able to be emotionally detached a bit. I don't have the attachment to the players that a coach does.''

Smith said he's studied NFL history at length, and he's studied business models of different business leaders. One that he's adopted is former GE boss Jack Welch's 20-70-10 philosophy: the top 20 percent of your employees are standouts and must be nurtured. The majority, the 70 percent, are the working class -- needed but still able to move if the right situation arises. The lowest 10 percent have to be churned and replaced, because a company always is looking for ways to get better by importing new blood. "If you have a 53-man roster, maybe you've got 10 or 11 core players,'' Smith said, "and then 25 to 30 roles players, and then you're always looking to churn the bottom of the roster.''

Smith didn't want to lose Williams, but it was a matter of economics; he had young guys who could get to the quarterback, maybe not as well as Williams. But all three combined wouldn't make what Williams was going to demand in free agency this year (he got a six-year, $100 million deal, with $50 million guaranteed). "At quarterback,'' Smith said, "the way T.J. played, we didn't have to pay market value to a backup quarterback.''

It all sounds smart, and the Texans should be favored to repeat as division champs. But isn't it amazing that a year ago, entering training camp in 2011, Ryans and Williams were the two cornerstone players on a defense being retooled by Wade Phillips, and the Texans flourished so often defensively last season without them? These Texans illustrate the way of the world in the NFL.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/06/03/mmqb/index.html

Rey
06-04-2012, 10:18 AM
Stupid column. I guess Peter King has never heard of the salary cap. It would have been a better column if King had explained how King could have kept all these players without mortgaging the future of the Texans.

I'm going to guess that King knows at least twenty times less about the Texans than the average poster on this board. That's why I go to forums and totally ignore newspaper columns. Especially out of town ones.

I think he was being complimentary of the Texans...I don't think he was saying we should have kept any of the guys we cut/let go...

Marcus
06-04-2012, 10:22 AM
Texans GM emotionally detached . . .

Good to hear. If he's not, then we need a new GM.

Only the fans get that little luxury of being emotionally "attached".

Marcus
06-04-2012, 10:23 AM
I think he was being complimentary of the Texans...I don't think he was saying we should have kept any of the guys we cut/let go...

That's the way I read it, too.

Double Barrel
06-04-2012, 10:23 AM
I wonder who is actually telling the players that they are cut, especially the vets? On Hard Knocks, it always seems to be a coach, and often the head coach. Does Kubiak avoid the blood on his hands by making Smith the hatchet man?

'eh, it's a business, and this is just the dark underbelly of it. The flip side is keeping players that cannot produce, which is always a recipe for failure.

It's going to be a sad day when they cut AJ down the road. It's not a matter of if, but when. I hate that part of it. Some players are so special to franchises that they should get a pass, but it is what is is. Montana on the Chiefs, Emmit Smith as a Cardinal, Jerry Rice as a Seahawk & Raider, Earl Campbell as a Saint...heck, just look at Manning as a Bronco. Such is life.

Marcus
06-04-2012, 10:31 AM
I wonder who is actually telling the players that they are cut, especially the vets? On Hard Knocks, it always seems to be a coach, and often the head coach. Does Kubiak avoid the blood on his hands by making Smith the hatchet man?

'eh, it's a business, and this is just the dark underbelly of it. The flip side is keeping players that cannot produce, which is always a recipe for failure.

It's going to be a sad day when they cut AJ down the road. It's not a matter of if, but when. I hate that part of it. Some players are so special to franchises that they should get a pass, but it is what is is. Montana on the Chiefs, Emmit Smith as a Cardinal, Jerry Rice as a Seahawk & Raider, Earl Campbell as a Saint...heck, just look at Manning as a Bronco. Such is life.

That's one of the jobs of the HC. I don't think he passes that buck to someone else.

majestrate
06-04-2012, 10:36 AM
I'm pretty sure Rick Smith had just finished watching Moneyball, and that was when he realized that he's not supposed to have personal investment in the players. ;)

</sarcasm>

Rey
06-04-2012, 10:40 AM
I wonder who is actually telling the players that they are cut, especially the vets? On Hard Knocks, it always seems to be a coach, and often the head coach. Does Kubiak avoid the blood on his hands by making Smith the hatchet man?

'eh, it's a business, and this is just the dark underbelly of it. The flip side is keeping players that cannot produce, which is always a recipe for failure.

It's going to be a sad day when they cut AJ down the road. It's not a matter of if, but when. I hate that part of it. Some players are so special to franchises that they should get a pass, but it is what is is. Montana on the Chiefs, Emmit Smith as a Cardinal, Jerry Rice as a Seahawk & Raider, Earl Campbell as a Saint...heck, just look at Manning as a Bronco. Such is life.

That's one of the jobs of the HC. I don't think he passes that buck to someone else.


I'm just guessing, but I think during the off-season leading up to the season Kubiak does a lot of the cutting when it's based mostly on performance. I think when it comes to money issues Smith probably takes on more of a role.

I'm pretty sure Kubiak at least talks to most (if not all) of the guys when they are let go....

Texecutioner
06-04-2012, 11:48 AM
I disagree with the emotional detachment thing when you consider guys like Chris Brown the RB, Jacoby Jones, Amaan Green, Kubiak, and some of the defensive coaches that were hired before Wade was.

beerlover
06-04-2012, 12:03 PM
I disagree with the emotional detachment thing when you consider guys like Chris Brown the RB, Jacoby Jones, Amaan Green, Kubiak, and some of the defensive coaches that were hired before Wade was.

maybe he listen'ed more to his coaches in the past? now he is a more confident, independent thinker, who can balance the equation in best business decision for his employer..... :mariopalm:

nytexan
06-04-2012, 12:17 PM
I disagree with the emotional detachment thing when you consider guys like Chris Brown the RB, Jacoby Jones, Amaan Green, Kubiak, and some of the defensive coaches that were hired before Wade was.

Yeah, we had so many better options than those guys when they were here :wadepalm:

SheTexan
06-04-2012, 12:40 PM
Who cares? He hasn't done squat for this team since he's been here anyway.. IMHO. SURE, we went to the playoffs for the first time last year, but, how much did RS really have to do with that?! Nearly EVERYONE on this board has given Wade the credit for that!!

You guys can delude yourselves all you want about that man. We would NOT have been in cap hell in the first place if it wasn't for him, so, using that as an excuse for the stup*d moves he's made this off season is just lubicrous! JMO! I have zero faith in his ability as a GM. ZERO!!!! Wish he was GONE!!!

Texecutioner
06-04-2012, 12:40 PM
Yeah, we had so many better options than those guys when they were here :wadepalm:

I'm not sure what you mean by this post, because it's non responsive.

Texecutioner
06-04-2012, 12:43 PM
Who cares? He hasn't done squat for this team since he's been here anyway.. IMHO. SURE, we went to the playoffs for the first time last year, but, how much did RS really have to do with that?! Nearly EVERYONE on this board has given Wade the credit for that!!

You guys can delude yourselves all you want about that man. We would NOT have been in cap hell in the first place if it wasn't for him, so, using that as an excuse for the stup*d moves he's made this off season is just lubicrous! JMO! I have zero faith in his ability as a GM. ZERO!!!! Wish he was GONE!!!

Well, he did bring in Bradie James. I liked that move. But of course that move had Wade Phillips written all over it as usual. Lol!

But for the most part you're right. 47-49 is what it is. People can chop those numbers up however they want from season to season, but this team has made it to one post season out of six. Those are horrible numbers.

Section516
06-04-2012, 12:48 PM
Who cares? He hasn't done squat for this team since he's been here anyway.. IMHO. SURE, we went to the playoffs for the first time last year, but, how much did RS really have to do with that?! Nearly EVERYONE on this board has given Wade the credit for that!!

You guys can delude yourselves all you want about that man. We would NOT have been in cap hell in the first place if it wasn't for him, so, using that as an excuse for the stup*d moves he's made this off season is just lubicrous! JMO! I have zero faith in his ability as a GM. ZERO!!!! Wish he was GONE!!!

My theory on this is..hes front loaded a butt ton of contracts so he can pay DBrown, BCushing, CBarwin when their contracts come up..

Rey
06-04-2012, 12:52 PM
I disagree with the emotional detachment thing when you consider guys like Chris Brown the RB, Jacoby Jones, Amaan Green, Kubiak, and some of the defensive coaches that were hired before Wade was.

Chris Brown was here for a short amount of time...I'm not even sure what your point is with him. Green was signed to a big contract and we didn't have a lot of options at that time. Jacoby was kubiak's project and they wanted to give him time to develop. Everyone hires coaches they are familiar with. That's not an example of anything.

This off-season they cut ties with Jacoby, Demeco and Winston. Mario went elsewhere Briesel went elsewhere. Those guys were a big part of this team. That's emotional detachment.

BaylorTXN
06-04-2012, 01:05 PM
Who cares? He hasn't done squat for this team since he's been here anyway.. IMHO. SURE, we went to the playoffs for the first time last year, but, how much did RS really have to do with that?! Nearly EVERYONE on this board has given Wade the credit for that!!

You guys can delude yourselves all you want about that man. We would NOT have been in cap hell in the first place if it wasn't for him, so, using that as an excuse for the stup*d moves he's made this off season is just lubicrous! JMO! I have zero faith in his ability as a GM. ZERO!!!! Wish he was GONE!!!

You're right! JoJo, Manning, and Foster were horrible signings that cost us our entire future as a relevant franchise. Fire him now! Seriously? He's had his helping of poor signings, but come on. JMHO.

Texecutioner
06-04-2012, 01:12 PM
Chris Brown was here for a short amount of time...I'm not even sure what your point is with him. Green was signed to a big contract and we didn't have a lot of options at that time. Jacoby was kubiak's project and they wanted to give him time to develop. Everyone hires coaches they are familiar with. That's not an example of anything.

Those were all decisions that a GM okays. Whether you want to believe that or not is your perogative. Those were all mistake players who the GM decided to sign and keep on the team after poor play in their first season which hurt the team later and became a problem cost games.

This off-season they cut ties with Jacoby, Demeco and Winston. Mario went elsewhere Briesel went elsewhere. Those guys were a big part of this team. That's emotional detachment.

Yes he did. That doesn't erase other history as I documented. He also had to make some of those decisions due to a lack of cap room.

Brisco_County
06-04-2012, 01:14 PM
“One important thing I’ve learned is when your core changes, you’ve got to be willing to change your philosophy too,” Smith tells Peter King of SI.com.

I imagine his philosophy changed when he saw what a new DC could do without two fan-favorite cornerstones on the defense, and what Kubiak did without Schaub. Five years of one philosophy goes out the window when you see that it contributed little to your first playoff breaching season.

Vinny
06-04-2012, 01:17 PM
“One important thing I’ve learned is when your core changes, you’ve got to be willing to change your philosophy too,” Smith tells Peter King of SI.com.

I imagine his philosophy changed when he saw what a new DC could do without two fan-favorite cornerstones on the defense, and what Kubiak did without Schaub. Five years of one philosophy goes out the window when you see that it contributed little to your first playoff breaching season.

or he drafted DeMeco and Williams for the 4-3 defense they couldn't make work...so he can live with a better defense of players that Wade picked for him.

Dutchrudder
06-04-2012, 01:43 PM
My theory on this is..hes front loaded a butt ton of contracts so he can pay DBrown, BCushing, CBarwin when their contracts come up..

Umm, who exactly did he frontload? We had Mario's 18 mill come of the books this year and still were in a cap crunch. Next year, we will have Demeco's 9 mill off the books, but Andre's cap number is going to be about 6 million higher because of his 2011 restructure. Most of our big guys have salary structures that escalate each year for the next few years, which means we will likely need to cut guys to give Schaub, Barwin and Brown decent contracts.

Our cap casualties next year will certainly be Wade Smith and Antonio Smith as I don't believe either of them will warrant their scheduled salaries. Others may be Owen Daniels and Kevin Walter, depending on their 2012 production. We are still going to have cap issues next year, LTs, OLBs and QBs are 3 of the highest paid positions in football and we need to lock up two at least of them. I'm thinking at this point, that Barwin may be the odd man out of that bunch if Mercilus shows enough potential.

Texecutioner
06-04-2012, 01:45 PM
“One important thing I’ve learned is when your core changes, you’ve got to be willing to change your philosophy too,” Smith tells Peter King of SI.com.

I imagine his philosophy changed when he saw what a new DC could do without two fan-favorite cornerstones on the defense, and what Kubiak did without Schaub. Five years of one philosophy goes out the window when you see that it contributed little to your first playoff breaching season.

This is a possibility. I could only hope that would be the case considering the success that Wade had with this defense. Only time will tell.

sandman
06-04-2012, 01:50 PM
But for the most part you're right. 47-49 is what it is. People can chop those numbers up however they want from season to season, but this team has made it to one post season out of six. Those are horrible numbers.

I think it speaks to the lack of parity in the AFC. Or at least a parity among the Have-Nots. In the last six years, there are six teams that have taken almost 75% of the playoff spots:

Colts (5)
Patriots (5)
Ravens (5)
Steelers (4)
Chargers (4)
Jets (3) (not really consistent at 50%, but the only team with three appearances in the last six years)

So take the remaining 10 teams for a total of 10 playoff spots in the last six years. And only 3 have not made the playoffs in that timeframe:

Bills
Browns
Raiders

That leaves seven teams that have been only once or twice during the time when the Big 6 have been dominating the conference:

Chiefs (2)
Titans (2)
Bengals (2)
Jaguars (1)
Dolphins (1)
Broncos (1)
Texans (1)

Unless you're the GM for one four big market NE teams, had The Forehead or played in the weak AFC West, you're seeing the same results as RS.

Not saying that he is a great GM or defending him in any way. Just pointing out with all the parity talk in the NFL compared to the other leagues, it is still just a handful of GM's that are winning and going to the playoffs consistently.

I'm pretty sure that most of these other franchises were Playoff/Super Bowl successful before RS came into his GM position with the Texans.

sandman
06-04-2012, 02:05 PM
This is a possibility. I could only hope that would be the case considering the success that Wade had with this defense. Only time will tell.

The great thing about Wade being here? The vast improvement on defense.

The bad (and will probably get worse) thing about Wade being here? The Smithiak haters will attribute any and all success for this team to Wade and Wade alone.

This team could win a Super Bowl and some people on this forum would want Gary fired and The Chin brought in.

Section516
06-04-2012, 02:08 PM
Umm, who exactly did he frontload? We had Mario's 18 mill come of the books this year and still were in a cap crunch. Next year, we will have Demeco's 9 mill off the books, but Andre's cap number is going to be about 6 million higher because of his 2011 restructure. Most of our big guys have salary structures that escalate each year for the next few years, which means we will likely need to cut guys to give Schaub, Barwin and Brown decent contracts.

Our cap casualties next year will certainly be Wade Smith and Antonio Smith as I don't believe either of them will warrant their scheduled salaries. Others may be Owen Daniels and Kevin Walter, depending on their 2012 production. We are still going to have cap issues next year, LTs, OLBs and QBs are 3 of the highest paid positions in football and we need to lock up two at least of them. I'm thinking at this point, that Barwin may be the odd man out of that bunch if Mercilus shows enough potential.

AF is getting paid like 18m this year, no?

Foster, who made $525,000 in 2011, will make $18 million this season and $30 million in first three years of deal.

That's all i based my theory on. I don't like looking into contracts and I don't really trust Spotrac, especially with all the adjustments made. IIRC, Johnson, JJo, and a few others have already tweaked their contract. Will just have to wait and see.

Texecutioner
06-04-2012, 02:11 PM
The great thing about Wade being here? The vast improvement on defense.

The bad (and will probably get worse) thing about Wade being here? The Smithiak haters will attribute any and all success for this team to Wade and Wade alone.

This team could win a Super Bowl and some people on this forum would want Gary fired and The Chin brought in.

If we were beating teams mainly on defense while the offense struggled really badly and was under achieving, than yeah I might be one of those people. It would really depend on the circumstances with injuries and what not. I couldn't forsee that really happening though with one of Gary's offenses considering the weapons we have.

Norg
06-04-2012, 02:29 PM
i agree with GM need to get rid of old name players if there not livin upto par but other then last year RICK has never done this LOL

i cant prob pull up a dozen of players from 05-10 that had over stayed there welcome here like one off the top of my head

Armaren Green RB
Faggins CB

Dutchrudder
06-04-2012, 03:04 PM
AF is getting paid like 18m this year, no?

Foster, who made $525,000 in 2011, will make $18 million this season and $30 million in first three years of deal.

That's all i based my theory on. I don't like looking into contracts and I don't really trust Spotrac, especially with all the adjustments made. IIRC, Johnson, JJo, and a few others have already tweaked their contract. Will just have to wait and see.

Well, it doesn't really work like that. He gets a salary of 5.5 million this year, and a 12.5mill signing bonus. So while he makes about 18 mill this year, the cap hit is only the salary of 5.5 mill + 2.5 mill in signing bonus = 8 mill this year. His contract escalates each year, so in the final year he's scheduled to make 9 mill. http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/contracts/nfl/hou/texans

AJ restructured his deal, which actually doesn't frontload, it backloads the deal over time. It relieves cap space for that year, but pushes that money into later years, thus imbalancing the deal down the road. AJ's deal is ridiculous money now, and guarantees he will be high paid for much longer than he probably should be.

JJo never restructured as far as I know. I'm pretty sure it's not even an option for him because that was the first year of his deal. Antonio Smith and Demeco reportedly restructured their deals so we could sign JJo and Manning. It had to be done in order to sign them, which also goes to show how poorly the cap was managed even in 2011.

Everything that I have seen about Smith shows that he likes to backload deals, and that's why our cap is a mess right now. He gives signing bonuses to guys like Manning, Smith and even freaking Lawrence Vickers, which makes it costly to cut them when the time comes. He wasted the perfect time to frontload deals in the cap-free year, when we resigned guys like AJ and Demeco. If he had been smart and followed the trend of about 15-20 other teams, he would have given guaranteed money as a roster bonus in 2010 instead of prorating it out through signing bonuses. That would have put us in a great position today. Instead we missed out on about 20+ million in free capspace and have lost players due to capspace as a result.

Section516
06-04-2012, 03:12 PM
Well, it doesn't really work like that.

Hmm. You're probably right. Like i said, contracts bore me.

Although, Don't we have some cap guru person? Think Olson?

sandman
06-04-2012, 03:51 PM
i agree with GM need to get rid of old name players if there not livin upto par but other then last year RICK has never done this LOL

i cant prob pull up a dozen of players from 05-10 that had over stayed there welcome here like one off the top of my head

Armaren Green RB
Faggins CB

Interesting that you chose RB and CB for your example, which during that timeframe were the poster children positions for lack of talent. There wasn't exactly "next man up" to step in and take their places and do any better.

thunderkyss
06-04-2012, 04:11 PM
I disagree with the emotional detachment thing when you consider guys like Chris Brown the RB, Jacoby Jones, Amaan Green, Kubiak, and some of the defensive coaches that were hired before Wade was.

I also disagree with the emotionally detached thing when it comes to letting guys go like Jacoby, Mario, Winston, Demeco, and Dressen.

If not for the salary cap, those guys would most likely still be here.... maybe not Jacoby.

I do agree, that a GM should be emotionally detached, but keeping those guys would not have been for emotion only.

It just makes too much sense to me, to keep Demeco. If Cushing is a better fit for a 3-4 MLB, that's great. But if something were to happen to him, I'd feel much better about moving Demeco over into his spot & filling in with Sharpton or whoever at the other ILB.

I'd feel much better with Winston starting the season on the team in-case Butler isn't all that I remembered him to be, or still requires some pushing. Or if Brisiel's replacement makes it tougher for him.

I'd feel much better with Mario starting at WOLB & Reed & Whitney coming off the bench.

It's not about emotions, this is a deeper team with those guys than it is without & 16 games (19 really) is a long time.

thunderkyss
06-04-2012, 04:16 PM
Those were all decisions that a GM okays. Whether you want to believe that or not is your perogative. Those were all mistake players who the GM decided to sign and keep on the team after poor play in their first season which hurt the team later and became a problem cost games.




I wouldn't say the GM should "ok" those decisions, but he should do a better job of bringing better talent in.

We were in cap hell when he got here though so..... who knows.

Next year will be the kicker. If win another play-off game next year & RS can't get sign us a decent FA at a position of need (provided there is one out there to fill the need that is).... then I'm with SheTexan

badboy
06-04-2012, 04:26 PM
I really want to like our players. I really, really want to see said players produce up to their contracts.

thunderkyss
06-04-2012, 04:33 PM
I really want to like our players. I really, really want to see said players produce up to their contracts.

I'm just saying.... with those guys we let go, a healthy Schaub & Andre.... we're easily favored to make it to the AFC Championship game.. or at least one of the top 3 teams in the conference.

Now we've got dang near a new team & unless you've got a lot of faith in Gary Kubiak, we're only slight favorites to win the division.

The Medic01
06-04-2012, 05:19 PM
I'm just saying.... with those guys we let go, a healthy Schaub & Andre.... we're easily favored to make it to the AFC Championship game.. or at least one of the top 3 teams in the conference.

Now we've got dang near a new team & unless you've got a lot of faith in Gary Kubiak, we're only slight favorites to win the division.

BS many non texans fans have called us super bowl contenders even favorites.
We do not have a new team as you say. We lost a backup corner two down linebacker a guy who played 5 games a fullback a backup QB an awful WR and two good olinemen. Also since the ZBS is known for finding good players in later rounds Im not worried. Example: 1st round Duane Brown. 2nd: none. 3rd:Wade Smith 4th none 5th:none 6th: Chris Myers 7th None undrafted Mike Brisiel. So really Bandon Brooks should be as good as Wade smith and Winston.

sandman
06-04-2012, 05:20 PM
I also disagree with the emotionally detached thing when it comes to letting guys go like Jacoby, Mario, Winston, Demeco, and Dressen.

If not for the salary cap, those guys would most likely still be here.... maybe not Jacoby. .

You rebutted yourself. If you know about the realities of the cap, then playing 'what if' is a moot point. They couldn't keep everyone. A team has success and individual players look to parlay that into something better. It's business on both ends.



It just makes too much sense to me, to keep Demeco. If Cushing is a better fit for a 3-4 MLB, that's great. But if something were to happen to him, I'd feel much better about moving Demeco over into his spot & filling in with Sharpton or whoever at the other ILB.

Wade doesn't agree with you. Otherwise, Ryans would still be here.

ObsiWan
06-04-2012, 05:27 PM
I really want to like our players. I really, really want to see said players produce up to their contracts.

I really, Really, REALLY want us to win.

TimeKiller
06-04-2012, 06:39 PM
They were talking about this on the radio this morning. Pretty interesting quotes from Smith.

But that's how it should be. The GM should be the bad guy. Even though we all know that Kubiak is a large part of the decision making process behind the scenes, I like Smith coming out and saying this stuff.

Yeah, as long as they sit somewhere between respect and fear....and don't mutiny....I'm just fine with Rick Smith not being everyone's buddy.

thunderkyss
06-04-2012, 07:23 PM
You rebutted yourself. If you know about the realities of the cap, then playing 'what if' is a moot point. They couldn't keep everyone. A team has success and individual players look to parlay that into something better. It's business on both ends.


I understand...... that was my point. It wasn't so much as being emotionally unattached, those were good players. We just couldn't keep them all, because of the cap.

Texan_Bill
06-04-2012, 07:27 PM
You're right! JoJo, Manning, and Foster were horrible signings that cost us our entire future as a relevant franchise. Fire him now! Seriously? He's had his helping of poor signings, but come on. JMHO.

Careful with your tone! While Gma and I don't agree on many issues, I treat the "Blue Crew Gma" with respect. As someone new to this board, I hope you do the same... I'm not saying you were out of line, but let's keep it classy and not be asshat(ish).

Thanks.

thunderkyss
06-04-2012, 07:27 PM
BS many non texans fans have called us super bowl contenders even favorites.


The Bears were in the NFC Championship game in 2010, they were considered favorites prior to the 2011 season.

The New York Jets were in the AFC Championshp game 2 years in a row, 2009, 2010, they were favorites prior to the 2011 season.

Reality set in, neither team was close in 2011. Neither making the play-offs.

We're not favorites..... anyone thinking so is drinking the kool-aid. We're further away from a Super Bowl today, than we were one year ago.

& say what you want, but if Kubiak & Co. don't approach this season that way, we've already lost.

Lurvinator11
06-04-2012, 07:43 PM
The Bears were in the NFC Championship game in 2010, they were considered favorites prior to the 2011 season.

The New York Jets were in the AFC Championshp game 2 years in a row, 2009, 2010, they were favorites prior to the 2011 season.

Reality set in, neither team was close in 2011. Neither making the play-offs.

We're not favorites..... anyone thinking so is drinking the kool-aid. We're further away from a Super Bowl today, than we were one year ago.

& say what you want, but if Kubiak & Co. don't approach this season that way, we've already lost.


ACTUALLY! The Bears had a great team in 2011. The wheels fell off when Cutler went down. They just didn't have a good back up plan. Had Cutler stayed in, they could have easily gotten that #5 seed and possibly beaten the NY Giants. But of course Cutler went out, and so did the Bears playoff hopes.

Lurvinator11
06-04-2012, 07:51 PM
Careful with your tone! While Gma and I don't agree on many issues, I treat the "Blue Crew Gma" with respect. As someone new to this board, I hope you do the same... I'm not saying you were out of line, but let's keep it classy and not be asshat(ish).

Thanks.

Eh, I don't think he was being much of an asshat, he was making a point. A very valid point at that as well. I mean it would be one thing if we had Matt Millin, who never did a thing in Detroit. But BaylorTXN makes the point that Rick Smith has made some good moves and fans should have a TAD bit of faith. I know I do, and for a long time, I did not have an ounce of faith in Smith. These past few offseasons have changed my opinion. I'm just saying, just because it's Blue Crew G'ma, doesn't mean you have to rip someone who makes a valid point against hers. :twocents:

pec0sb0b
06-04-2012, 08:27 PM
Sounds like more sacred cows will be brisket next year.

Rey
06-04-2012, 08:50 PM
Those were all decisions that a GM okays. Whether you want to believe that or not is your perogative. Those were all mistake players who the GM decided to sign and keep on the team after poor play in their first season which hurt the team later and became a problem cost games.

I understand all that, but what I'm saying is that I believe they legitimately thought that those players could help them at the time. Liking a guy or sticking with a guy that you think can develop doesn't mean you aren't willing to part ways when it's obvious that the end is upon you.

Maybe THE TEAM could have made these decisions earlier, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with emotional attachment. Like I said, they could have had legitimate belief in the guys. Maybe they need to work on their evaluation skills, but I think they've shown that they are willing to par ways with guys no matter how beloved they are by the fans, the team and the staff.



Yes he did. That doesn't erase other history as I documented. He also had to make some of those decisions due to a lack of cap room.

Right, but I don't believe they are so incompetent that they couldn't see the salary cap problems coming for a while. They could have cut/traded those guys a year earlier and opened up cap space. But I don't think they did because they saw them as valuable members of the team and they could afford them.

But when the time came for it, they made the tough decisions and let guys go.

GP
06-04-2012, 08:54 PM
Who cares? He hasn't done squat for this team since he's been here anyway.. IMHO. SURE, we went to the playoffs for the first time last year, but, how much did RS really have to do with that?! Nearly EVERYONE on this board has given Wade the credit for that!!

You guys can delude yourselves all you want about that man. We would NOT have been in cap hell in the first place if it wasn't for him, so, using that as an excuse for the stup*d moves he's made this off season is just lubicrous! JMO! I have zero faith in his ability as a GM. ZERO!!!! Wish he was GONE!!!

EDIT: The below post is just me trying to stay objective. Is not meant to be an attack against anyone. It's just my way of saying that Rick Smith and Bob McNair and Gary Kubiak and even Wade Phillips have their fingerprints all over this team. /EDIT.

I'm going to play what if:

What if...McNair wanted to win soooo badly in 2011, that he was 100% alright with us being a bit up against the 2012 cap???

In fact, LOL, what if Rick said "Whoa! We can't stay within the cap if we do this..." McNair says "The fans want a push. The city needs it. Kubiak deserves it. I want it. Let's figure out the fire sale ahead of time and go after a playoff push NOW."

What if Bob knew Mario was gone no matter what...Ryans didn't fit Wade so his salary was on the chopping block...Jacoby was going to be gone too because of money and such...knew they had Dreessen, Brisiel, Myers, Allen testing FA market.

So you pick and choose. Mario gone, Ryans gone, Jacoby gone...three players we chose to not pay in 2012 because of the big push in 2011. Winston cut outright, which was a pure re-building task IMO. We landed Myers, locked up Foster (wisely) and signed Bradie James which is maybe a good move and maybe not.

We let Rackers walk and drafted a fresh leg and gutsy ego out of college who is ready to make his mark on the league.

It looks to me like Bob saddled up for 2011 and was the guy who said we would charge ahead. Full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes.

I think people ate wayyy off the mark on how this is Rick's fault. I think McNair sacked up in 2011 and Rick is running wild with the new direction. Training wheels came off after the close OT loss to the Ravens in the 2010 season. I think Bob decided it was time to play big boy ball after that emotional loss. We had that game, a fluke pick 6 destroyed little boy ball.

Marcus
06-04-2012, 09:06 PM
Eh, I don't think he was being much of an asshat, he was making a point. A very valid point at that as well. I mean it would be one thing if we had Matt Millin, who never did a thing in Detroit. But BaylorTXN makes the point that Rick Smith has made some good moves and fans should have a TAD bit of faith. I know I do, and for a long time, I did not have an ounce of faith in Smith. These past few offseasons have changed my opinion. I'm just saying, just because it's Blue Crew G'ma, doesn't mean you have to rip someone who makes a valid point against hers. :twocents:

I second that. Bill..."watch your tone"?? Really?

"Blue Crew G'ma" has still got the red-ass because RS traded away Demeco. She doesn't dispute that, and she doesn't dispute the fact that she's a sentimental old fool.

Happy?;)

Texan_Bill
06-04-2012, 09:17 PM
I really reitertate my first thought and that is ""...... as he should be".... SORRY, I loved Mario... (not worth the money), I loved DeMeco (not a great fit for Wade's 3-4)....

I wish these guys all the best, but at the end of the day, I cheer more for the name on the front of the jersey, NOT the back of it!

Norg
06-05-2012, 04:43 AM
http://i43.tinypic.com/r1c31g.jpg

ckhouston
06-05-2012, 05:02 AM
Hopefully not mentally detached like he was back when he signed Ahman Green. Many of the last two years picks and signings seem to come from other sources or recommendations. Jury is still out on Mr Smith. IMO.

ObsiWan
06-05-2012, 07:13 AM
EDIT: The below post is just me trying to stay objective. Is not meant to be an attack against anyone. It's just my way of saying that Rick Smith and Bob McNair and Gary Kubiak and even Wade Phillips have their fingerprints all over this team. /EDIT.

I'm going to play what if:

What if...McNair wanted to win soooo badly in 2011, that he was 100% alright with us being a bit up against the 2012 cap???

In fact, LOL, what if Rick said "Whoa! We can't stay within the cap if we do this..." McNair says "The fans want a push. The city needs it. Kubiak deserves it. I want it. Let's figure out the fire sale ahead of time and go after a playoff push NOW."

What if Bob knew Mario was gone no matter what...Ryans didn't fit Wade so his salary was on the chopping block...Jacoby was going to be gone too because of money and such...knew they had Dreessen, Brisiel, Myers, Allen testing FA market.

So you pick and choose. Mario gone, Ryans gone, Jacoby gone...three players we chose to not pay in 2012 because of the big push in 2011. Winston cut outright, which was a pure re-building task IMO. We landed Myers, locked up Foster (wisely) and signed Bradie James which is maybe a good move and maybe not.

We let Rackers walk and drafted a fresh leg and gutsy ego out of college who is ready to make his mark on the league.

It looks to me like Bob saddled up for 2011 and was the guy who said we would charge ahead. Full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes.

I think people ate wayyy off the mark on how this is Rick's fault. I think McNair sacked up in 2011 and Rick is running wild with the new direction. Training wheels came off after the close OT loss to the Ravens in the 2010 season. I think Bob decided it was time to play big boy ball after that emotional loss. We had that game, a fluke pick 6 destroyed little boy ball.

This is as close to a logical scenario as anything I've read on this subject to date [did I just give GP credit for being right AGAIN?!]

Uncle Bob decided last season "it's playoffs or bust in 2011 and we'll clean up the salary cap mess later."

Smith knew the mess would be huge but I think he prepared for it. How else do you explain - if you believe Mario - that Williams was not even offered a token offer. How else do you explain that they were able to trade DeMeco so readily without publicly "shopping him around" for weeks? Cutting Winston, cutting Jacoby, restructuring K.W.'s contract, not attempting to match Briesel's contract. Like it or not, all those guys were seen as replaceable.

Our Core Ten Percenters for 2012 are:
1. Schaub
2. Foster
3. A.J.
4. Cushing
5. Duane Brown.
6. Myers
7. Joseph
8. Watt

Everyone else is a role player or expendable. And guess what, that list will change next year if A.J. and/or Schaub keep getting hurt. The only folks we don't have quality backups for are D. Brown, J.Joseph, and maybe Cushing.

I give Cushing a "maybe" because, is having a Cushing-quality ILB really that crucial in Wade's scheme? Or is he a luxury we're lucky to have??
If Cushing decides he wants a huge payday, can Wade get by with Sharper and/or his ex-Cowboys at ILB? If Wade says "I'd like to have him but I can make the D work without him, don't be surprised if Cush is gone when his contract is up...

badboy
06-05-2012, 08:48 AM
http://i43.tinypic.com/r1c31g.jpgLooks like he is fixing to bust out into a giggle.

badboy
06-05-2012, 08:52 AM
This is as close to a logical scenario as anything I've read on this subject to date [did I just give GP credit for being right AGAIN?!]

Uncle Bob decided last season "it's playoffs or bust in 2011 and we'll clean up the salary cap mess later."

Smith knew the mess would be huge but I think he prepared for it. How else do you explain - if you believe Mario - that Williams was not even offered a token offer. How else do you explain that they were able to trade DeMeco so readily without publicly "shopping him around" for weeks? Cutting Winston, cutting Jacoby, restructuring K.W.'s contract, not attempting to match Briesel's contract. Like it or not, all those guys were seen as replaceable.

Our Core Ten Percenters for 2012 are:
1. Schaub
2. Foster
3. A.J.
4. Cushing
5. Duane Brown.
6. Myers
7. Joseph
8. Watt

Everyone else is a role player or expendable. And guess what, that list will change next year if A.J. and/or Schaub keep getting hurt. The only folks we don't have quality backups for are D. Brown, J.Joseph, and maybe Cushing.

I give Cushing a "maybe" because, is having a Cushing-quality ILB really that crucial in Wade's scheme? Or is he a luxury we're lucky to have??
If Cushing decides he wants a huge payday, can Wade get by with Sharper and/or his ex-Cowboys at ILB? If Wade says "I'd like to have him but I can make the D work without him, don't be surprised if Cush is gone when his contract is up...This is exactly what I was asking on my thread about team depth. We seem to be moving (if not quite yet arrived) at where we can replace starters like those you mention. This fits in with drafting best player available theory which imo we have not done but could start 2013.

GP
06-05-2012, 09:04 AM
This is as close to a logical scenario as anything I've read on this subject to date [did I just give GP credit for being right AGAIN?!]

Uncle Bob decided last season "it's playoffs or bust in 2011 and we'll clean up the salary cap mess later."

Smith knew the mess would be huge but I think he prepared for it. How else do you explain - if you believe Mario - that Williams was not even offered a token offer. How else do you explain that they were able to trade DeMeco so readily without publicly "shopping him around" for weeks? Cutting Winston, cutting Jacoby, restructuring K.W.'s contract, not attempting to match Briesel's contract. Like it or not, all those guys were seen as replaceable.

Our Core Ten Percenters for 2012 are:
1. Schaub
2. Foster
3. A.J.
4. Cushing
5. Duane Brown.
6. Myers
7. Joseph
8. Watt

Everyone else is a role player or expendable. And guess what, that list will change next year if A.J. and/or Schaub keep getting hurt. The only folks we don't have quality backups for are D. Brown, J.Joseph, and maybe Cushing.

I give Cushing a "maybe" because, is having a Cushing-quality ILB really that crucial in Wade's scheme? Or is he a luxury we're lucky to have??
If Cushing decides he wants a huge payday, can Wade get by with Sharper and/or his ex-Cowboys at ILB? If Wade says "I'd like to have him but I can make the D work without him, don't be surprised if Cush is gone when his contract is up...

Crown me! LOL.

Bob McNair is a lot more hands-on than I think people realize. Even myself included.

I think he let Capers and Casserly establish a mindset and a direction here...Kubiak to an extent also was a bit beholden to that Capers era via having to retain Carr.

But when Kubiak made small achievements: Schaub's success, the offense getting better overnight, the ZNS success, Foster, etc., I think McNair began listening to Smith and Kubiak more.

This season marks, IMO, the beginning of the full Smithiak era. The time when those guys are making drastic moves and being trusted to get it done.

beerlover
06-05-2012, 09:14 AM
This is exactly what I was asking on my thread about team depth. We seem to be moving (if not quite yet arrived) at where we can replace starters like those you mention. This fits in with drafting best player available theory which imo we have not done but could start 2013.

Maybe not BPA on your or my board but most certainly BPA on their board.

This is mostly just lip service anyway & license to conduct business as he see's fit.

SheTexan
06-05-2012, 10:28 AM
I second that. Bill..."watch your tone"?? Really?

"Blue Crew G'ma" has still got the red-ass because RS traded away Demeco. She doesn't dispute that, and she doesn't dispute the fact that she's a sentimental old fool.

Happy?;)

You know me very well Marcus! BUT, my dislike for our GM started long before the Demeco trade. Yes, I still have the red-a*s over it, but, I'm adjusting. It's all good guys! I'm a big gal, I can take sarcasm! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I respect that. Just because I'm relatively OLD and a WOMAN does not mean I don't know or understand how this crazy business works. I also know my limitations. I adore ALL you guys who understand that and put up with me!!

As for being a sentimental old fool, yes, I am that, and not ashamed of it either. Heck, I still get emotional over some of the old Oiler clips. The last time I saw Earl Campbell, which was about 3 yrs ago, I broke down and wept like a baby. I saw a pic of Bum and JJ Watt the other day and wanted to reach out and give that man a hug!! I watch stuff like D. Carr jumping over the goal line at that Jags game, Aaron Glenn snagging an interception and taking it "to the house," Faggins standing on the rale pumping his fist in that red jersey, JJ (as in Jones) doing his THANG, and of course my all time FAVORITE, Billy Miller with his FIRST TD at the Hall of Fame game, and then topping it off with our first win over Dallas, and I smile like a moron on meth, and weep like I've won the flippin lotto! When I cease getting that excited about my team, then I will quit watching the game. I love the emotional attachment, and I don't care to ever give it up.

ObsiWan
06-05-2012, 10:44 AM
You know me very well Marcus! BUT, my dislike for our GM started long before the Demeco trade. Yes, I still have the red-a*s over it, but, I'm adjusting. It's all good guys! I'm a big gal, I can take sarcasm! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I respect that. Just because I'm relatively OLD and a WOMAN does not mean I don't know or understand how this crazy business works. I also know my limitations. I adore ALL you guys who understand that and put up with me!!

As for being a sentimental old fool, yes, I am that, and not ashamed of it either. Heck, I still get emotional over some of the old Oiler clips. The last time I saw Earl Campbell, which was about 3 yrs ago, I broke down and wept like a baby. I saw a pic of Bum and JJ Watt the other day and wanted to reach out and give that man a hug!! I watch stuff like D. Carr jumping over the goal line at that Jags game, Aaron Glenn snagging an interception and taking it "to the house," Faggins standing on the rale pumping his fist in that red jersey, JJ (as in Jones) doing his THANG, and of course my all time FAVORITE, Billy Miller with his FIRST TD at the Hall of Fame game, and then topping it off with our first win over Dallas, and I smile like a moron on meth, and weep like I've won the flippin lotto! When I cease getting that excited about my team, then I will quit watching the game. I love the emotional attachment, and I don't care to ever give it up.

don't let 'em fool ya, ST... you're not the only one. We're ALL "emotionally attached"...
but don't take my word for it, wait until the season starts and watch the fireworks on the gameday threads
:D

beerlover
06-05-2012, 10:52 AM
I think fans might also be better off if they became more detached, towards Rick Smith. :shetexan:

Thorn
06-05-2012, 10:55 AM
Yeah, well, my history here has been one of ridiculing Kubiak and Smith both, and I'm not going to back away from history. For now, the posting of Smithiak hate from me is on hiatus because of the position the team currently is in. But make no mistake, I don't trust Smithiak a bit. I think Wade has as much to do with the success of this team as anything else.

SheTexan
06-05-2012, 11:15 AM
don't let 'em fool ya, ST... you're not the only one. We're ALL "emotionally attached"...
but don't take my word for it, wait until the season starts and watch the fireworks on the gameday threads
:D

OH, I know how that goes! Having never missed a home game, I get the enjoyment of reading the gameday thread AFTER the fact, and it's always very entertaining! Truthfully, I think there are more "fights" on this MB than you ever see at Reliant! Fans love to hide behind their keyboard! Fact is, we are all passionate about our team or we wouldn't be HERE having this discussion during the off season. That's "emotional" IMHO!! :fostering::texflag:

Texecutioner
06-05-2012, 05:07 PM
Right, but I don't believe they are so incompetent that they couldn't see the salary cap problems coming for a while. They could have cut/traded those guys a year earlier and opened up cap space. But I don't think they did because they saw them as valuable members of the team and they could afford them.

But when the time came for it, they made the tough decisions and let guys go.

Well as for recent history as in this last off season I would definitely agree that there was no emotional attachment. Looking at the entire picture, I'd say there was before. At least for now and the current future it seems like Smith may not have that same emotional attachment that many felt that he had before. Maybe he has learned and evolved. At least I hope that is the case.

drs23
06-05-2012, 06:26 PM
Well as for recent history as in this last off season I would definitely agree that there was no emotional attachment. Looking at the entire picture, I'd say there was before. At least for now and the current future it seems like Smith may not have that same emotional attachment that many felt that he had before. Maybe he has learned and evolved. At least I hope that is the case.

Damn Tex, isn't the proof in the puddin'?

Texecutioner
06-05-2012, 06:35 PM
Damn Tex, isn't the proof in the puddin'?

No it isn't. One off season doesn't prove anything to me. You show me several seasons or off seasons or what not, than I'd say the "proof is in the pudding." What many of you fail to remember is that Smithiak had a big reputation for coddling players and babying them before this off season. That was a stigma amongst many on this board and around Houston. You may not have thought so, but quite a few others including myself did.

One thing I've noticed is that so many people that thought one way before, totally flip their views and their objectives on things, because the Texans have one winning season. I don't do that. I want to see consistency of something, before I flip the switch like that.

GP
06-05-2012, 07:22 PM
No it isn't. One off season doesn't prove anything to me. You show me several seasons or off seasons or what not, than I'd say the "proof is in the pudding." What many of you fail to remember is that Smithiak had a big reputation for coddling players and babying them before this off season. That was a stigma amongst many on this board and around Houston. You may not have thought so, but quite a few others including myself did.

One thing I've noticed is that so many people that thought one way before, totally flip their views and their objectives on things, because the Texans have one winning season. I don't do that. I want to see consistency of something, before I flip the switch like that.

You mean people become happy when things get better, so they lay off the constant criticism? I don't consider that to be treason, Tex.

You and I both took down our Fire Kubiak sigs last season. Why? Why isn't yours still up and running, if you don't flip flop on issues? Look, I understand the angle you're taking...one good season doesn't outdo the previous mediocre ones. I agree.

But let's have a mediocre season and talk about it afterward. The tipping point was the off-season in 2011, IMO. Either it was a bit of a fluke or we turned that proverbial corner we sought after for so long.

I noticed on the Kelsay/Mario thread you have this same theme of "People loved Mario now they say they can't stand him...too much flip flopping!" stance. People supported him because of his jersey. He had plenty of critics, and he had a few loyalist fan boys and a few hardcore haters. But actually, the vast majority of fans were always virtually in the middle of the spectrum (all things considered) and the majority of fans didn't lose sleep at the prospect of him leaving. If he could stay and let others stay too, then fine...if not, then fine. But everyone knew he was leaving.

Upon leaving, Maria trashed us out. The backlash is due to him for his out-of-touch-with-reality perception that nobody liked him here. Yet he didn't stick around for reasonable money...so what's his gripe? If he loves his record-setting salary...no skin off our backs, so he just cannot expect us to take his twitter tongue lashing and say "May I have another, sir?!?!" My former players turn on me, I'll damn sure turn on THEM. I stay consistent on that topic, for sure.

If Schaub returns to form, which it sounds from TC's reports that he is looking great so far, and we have a better year vs. the injury bug...things should turn out well. I don't see us folding up like lawn chairs like we used to. Who gets the credit within the front office and the coaching staff is not my thang. My thang is I'm gonna enjoy the outcome 100% and hope we go farther and farther. As far as I am concerned, it's a team effort when we suck and it's a team effort when we get better.

drs23
06-05-2012, 07:49 PM
You mean people become happy when things get better, so they lay off the constant criticism? I don't consider that to be treason, Tex.

You and I both took down our Fire Kubiak sigs last season. Why? Why isn't yours still up and running, if you don't flip flop on issues? Look, I understand the angle you're taking...one good season doesn't outdo the previous mediocre ones. I agree.

But let's have a mediocre season and talk about it afterward. The tipping point was the off-season in 2011, IMO. Either it was a bit of a fluke or we turned that proverbial corner we sought after for so long.

I noticed on the Kelsay/Mario thread you have this same theme of "People loved Mario now they say they can't stand him...too much flip flopping!" stance. People supported him because of his jersey. He had plenty of critics, and he had a few loyalist fan boys and a few hardcore haters. But actually, the vast majority of fans were always virtually in the middle of the spectrum (all things considered) and the majority of fans didn't lose sleep at the prospect of him leaving. If he could stay and let others stay too, then fine...if not, then fine. But everyone knew he was leaving.

Upon leaving, Maria trashed us out. The backlash is due to him for his out-of-touch-with-reality perception that nobody liked him here. Yet he didn't stick around for reasonable money...so what's his gripe? If he loves his record-setting salary...no skin off our backs, so he just cannot expect us to take his twitter tongue lashing and say "May I have another, sir?!?!" My former players turn on me, I'll damn sure turn on THEM. I stay consistent on that topic, for sure.

If Schaub returns to form, which it sounds from TC's reports that he is looking great so far, and we have a better year vs. the injury bug...things should turn out well. I don't see us folding up like lawn chairs like we used to. Who gets the credit within the front office and the coaching staff is not my thang. My thang is I'm gonna enjoy the outcome 100% and hope we go farther and farther. As far as I am concerned, it's a team effort when we suck and it's a team effort when we get better.

A much more succinct retort than I could have hoped to proffer GP, and spot on.

MSR

redwhiteblue
06-05-2012, 07:55 PM
What many of you fail to remember is that Smithiak had a big reputation for coddling players and babying them before this off season. That was a stigma amongst many on this board and around Houston. You may not have thought so, but quite a few others including myself did.

Does this include asking Ahman Green if he was faking his injury?
Or singling out Ben Tate as a player he needs to tough it out and get on the field?
Or the Dunta Robinson situation?

ckhouston
06-05-2012, 08:29 PM
Or the Dunta Robinson situation?

Horrible player ... glad to see him go.

Texan_Bill
06-05-2012, 08:37 PM
No it isn't. One off season doesn't prove anything to me. You show me several seasons or off seasons or what not, than I'd say the "proof is in the pudding." What many of you fail to remember is that Smithiak had a big reputation for coddling players and babying them before this off season. That was a stigma amongst many on this board and around Houston. You may not have thought so, but quite a few others including myself did.

One thing I've noticed is that so many people that thought one way before, totally flip their views and their objectives on things, because the Texans have one winning season. I don't do that. I want to see consistency of something, before I flip the switch like that.

This is similar to the case that people make about Kubiak "being soft".... "being a players coach", Kubiak having "no fire or passion"...... See the NFL video on Arian Foster...

Hey Tex, maybe you should re-evaluate your off-season...

This just in Bro.... You don't know everything about everything!!


Peace Bro!!

Texecutioner
06-06-2012, 12:56 AM
You mean people become happy when things get better, so they lay off the constant criticism? I don't consider that to be treason, Tex.

You and I both took down our Fire Kubiak sigs last season. Why? Why isn't yours still up and running, if you don't flip flop on issues? Look, I understand the angle you're taking...one good season doesn't outdo the previous mediocre ones. I agree.

But let's have a mediocre season and talk about it afterward. The tipping point was the off-season in 2011, IMO. Either it was a bit of a fluke or we turned that proverbial corner we sought after for so long.

The discussion is about Smith and whether he was detached from emotions with certain players. I don't see why his entire history is something that should be dismissed instead of just his recent history. That is what this discussion is about.

I noticed on the Kelsay/Mario thread you have this same theme of "People loved Mario now they say they can't stand him...too much flip flopping!" stance. People supported him because of his jersey. He had plenty of critics, and he had a few loyalist fan boys and a few hardcore haters. But actually, the vast majority of fans were always virtually in the middle of the spectrum (all things considered) and the majority of fans didn't lose sleep at the prospect of him leaving. If he could stay and let others stay too, then fine...if not, then fine. But everyone knew he was leaving.
Upon leaving, Maria trashed us out. The backlash is due to him for his out-of-touch-with-reality perception that nobody liked him here. Yet he didn't stick around for reasonable money...so what's his gripe? If he loves his record-setting salary...no skin off our backs, so he just cannot expect us to take his twitter tongue lashing and say "May I have another, sir?!?!" My former players turn on me, I'll damn sure turn on THEM. I stay consistent on that topic, for sure.

There were threads going on for months on how incredible Mario was to this franchise and why he needed to be resigned. The minute that it was apparent that he wasn't going to many of those same folks totally flipped everything around. I wasn't surprised. This seems to be a common theme at times. If you had a question about this, you should have discussed it in the thread. But for the record it does look silly when a person is propped up on a pedastool and then dropped the minute they leave for a lot more money and a great opportunity.

If Schaub returns to form, which it sounds from TC's reports that he is looking great so far, and we have a better year vs. the injury bug...things should turn out well. I don't see us folding up like lawn chairs like we used to. Who gets the credit within the front office and the coaching staff is not my thang. My thang is I'm gonna enjoy the outcome 100% and hope we go farther and farther. As far as I am concerned, it's a team effort when we suck and it's a team effort when we get better.

That is all very possible. I think the defense will be good enough to carry even a poor offense if that becomes the case. We'll wait and see. I feel really good about our chances if Schaub is healthy.

This is similar to the case that people make about Kubiak "being soft".... "being a players coach", Kubiak having "no fire or passion"...... See the NFL video on Arian Foster...

Hey Tex, maybe you should re-evaluate your off-season...

This just in Bro.... You don't know everything about everything!!


Peace Bro!!

Opinions that interfere with yours? This is non responsive Bill. Either explain your position or don't bother.

infantrycak
06-06-2012, 01:22 AM
What many of you fail to remember is that Smithiak had a big reputation for coddling players and babying them before this off season. That was a stigma amongst many on this board and around Houston. You may not have thought so, but quite a few others including myself did.

Opinions that interfere with yours? This is non responsive Bill. Either explain your position or don't bother.

Stigma. Interesting choice of words. I think conjecture would be a better one although I certainly remember that conjecture. I also remember pointing it out as such back to the Sage Rosenfels asking for a panty shield days.

Similarly I think this Smithiak suddenly became Darth Vader stuff is bunk which is mainly fan past perceptions tinted by lack of success contrasted with fan perceptions based on last season's success.

I think Bill's contrast with fan perception of Kubiak is apt. Fan conjecture doesn't equal truth.

ObsiWan
06-06-2012, 02:51 AM
No it isn't. One off season doesn't prove anything to me. You show me several seasons or off seasons or what not, than I'd say the "proof is in the pudding." What many of you fail to remember is that Smithiak had a big reputation for coddling players and babying them before this off season. That was a stigma amongst many on this board and around Houston. You may not have thought so, but quite a few others including myself did.

One thing I've noticed is that so many people that thought one way before, totally flip their views and their objectives on things, because the Texans have one winning season. I don't do that. I want to see consistency of something, before I flip the switch like that.

I don't know if "coddling" is the correct term but Kubiak has always had his "pets". Still does. See Trindon Holliday. Hurt his first year. Really didn't contribute last year. And he's getting a third T/C to make the team... Really?

And John Beck. Something tells me he's a tad more than just a camp arm. He's this year's Matt Leinart; someone other teams have written off but Kubiak is gonna give him a shot to beat out Yates. ...or at least put enough snaps on film to show other teams he'd make a decent backup when the cuts start. But I wouldn't be surprised if we carry three QBs into the season and try to stash Keenum on the P/S.

Of course, I reserve the right to completely flip-flop on this QB prediction after I see who gets the quality snaps during the first two or three preseason games. :D

GP
06-06-2012, 12:59 PM
The discussion is about Smith and whether he was detached from emotions with certain players. I don't see why his entire history is something that should be dismissed instead of just his recent history. That is what this discussion is about.

I took from the article/quotes that Rick Smith said he has grown to a level of being a bit detached from emotions. It's been a process. I even think Bob McNair has had to find an inner resolve to detach a bit, as well.

There was a time when we reached for raw players like Amobi and Jacoby, and that came crashing down to the point that both guys are gone and our most recent draft saw no such surprises. They've abandoned a strategy that was part of their "old history."

They also, a bit further back, were not opposed to acquiring the Todd Wades, and the Eric Moulds, and the Ahman Greens of the NFL--the "One Last Payday" crew. This old history, as well, was tanked when McNair and Smith boldly announced that the Texans would no longer be a welcome harbor for aging vets looking for a final payday somewhere.

Another departure from their history is the recent actions of cutting Winston, trading DeMeco, and letting Mario walk completely away. That's not the Texans I knew! The Texans I knew would have kept Winston and Ryans out of pure sentimental reasons. There's nothing like having your back against a wall (cap space) to make you depart from your own history of how we do things. This was not mismanagement of cap space, either, IMO, it was a playoff push mindset in 2011 that was made earlier in 2011 and they waited to pay the bill when it came due in this off-season.

Nobody would have expected the Texans to cut Winston. Nobody would have expected us to trade DeMeco. The half-hearted and maybe even "paltry" offer they made Mario was another sign of how the times are a'changing.

I am definitely including their full history. The recent history looks a lot better than their prior history. And if recent history continues to pay dividends, then they will continue to do business in that "new history" manner until something forces them to change tactics. All in all, we're in the best shape in franchise history...I just think we're so accustomed to being mediocre that we find ourselves distrustful of each new year that greets us.


There were threads going on for months on how incredible Mario was to this franchise and why he needed to be resigned. The minute that it was apparent that he wasn't going to many of those same folks totally flipped everything around. I wasn't surprised. This seems to be a common theme at times. If you had a question about this, you should have discussed it in the thread. But for the record it does look silly when a person is propped up on a pedastool and then dropped the minute they leave for a lot more money and a great opportunity.

Hang on a sec, I still maintain that there was nowhere near the level of Mario Love that you're projecting here. And I won't go and research it either...hell, it takes long enough for me to write my own thoughts on topics, let alone research thousands of posts and do an essay on it. And nobody wants me to, either. I'm thinking about asking for the Dragon talk-to-text software because my posts are so long. LOL.

The point here is that people saw a bit of talent in Mario that made it nonsense to dismiss the guy completely. His value to this team was that he was probably the most talented guy on what had been a really bad defense for a really long time. He was the star on a sub-standard defense, he made his sacks and he made his run tackles, etc., and there's no way we could lump him in with guys like Travis Johnson and Amobi Okoye. He was, IMO, a sort of stabilizer and not a game changing force on a consistent basis. When we paid him chump change compared to what a Houston texans-Reggie Bush would have looked like, everybody should have known that he was going to play that contract out and IF he survived the MW-VY-RB nuclear war then Mario was going to make sure he got rewarded handsomely for it.

Nobody here felt he was worth his asking price, but IF he could stay then that would be fine. The battle lines I think you are referring to, IMO, exist between the small faction of Mario Lovers and Mario Haters who took an extreme partisan slant on the issue. The majority of people here, from what I gathered in looking at the threads AND participating in the threads too, felt that while he was valued he shouldn't be THE guy on what has become a defense of collective ass-kickers. I don't see that situation containing much flip-flopping, actually. If a few posters reversed their position, then so what? But it's definitely not like everyone rooted for the Confederacy one day and then welcomed the Union forces with open arms the next. Not the way I remember it, at least.

Texecutioner
06-06-2012, 05:14 PM
I took from the article/quotes that Rick Smith said he has grown to a level of being a bit detached from emotions. It's been a process. I even think Bob McNair has had to find an inner resolve to detach a bit, as well.

There was a time when we reached for raw players like Amobi and Jacoby, and that came crashing down to the point that both guys are gone and our most recent draft saw no such surprises. They've abandoned a strategy that was part of their "old history."


They also, a bit further back, were not opposed to acquiring the Todd Wades, and the Eric Moulds, and the Ahman Greens of the NFL--the "One Last Payday" crew. This old history, as well, was tanked when McNair and Smith boldly announced that the Texans would no longer be a welcome harbor for aging vets looking for a final payday somewhere.


That may or may not be the case. Only time will tell from this point forward. I hope that you're right, but I look at an entire picture of history instead of just the recent history that seems a bit better.


Another departure from their history is the recent actions of cutting Winston, trading DeMeco, and letting Mario walk completely away. That's not the Texans I knew! The Texans I knew would have kept Winston and Ryans out of pure sentimental reasons. There's nothing like having your back against a wall (cap space) to make you depart from your own history of how we do things. This was not mismanagement of cap space, either, IMO, it was a playoff push mindset in 2011 that was made earlier in 2011 and they waited to pay the bill when it came due in this off-season.



Nobody would have expected the Texans to cut Winston. Nobody would have expected us to trade DeMeco. The half-hearted and maybe even "paltry" offer they made Mario was another sign of how the times are a'changing.

Yes, these are strong signs that the emotional attachment may not be there as many believed it was before. But again, I'd like to see some consistency of several years to believe that this has happened in full.

I am definitely including their full history. The recent history looks a lot better than their prior history. And if recent history continues to pay dividends, then they will continue to do business in that "new history" manner until something forces them to change tactics. All in all, we're in the best shape in franchise history...I just think we're so accustomed to being mediocre that we find ourselves distrustful of each new year that greets us.

Well sure. When you look back on the history of how Bob has handled this franchise and how Smithiak has in their first 5 or 6 seasons, it's only natural to remain skeptical and a little distrustful. They're having to earn back that trust from fans that don't just buy in because they want to believe in something or because they root for a team. You look at some of the epic failures that took place early on for several years, than you've got to understand some of the skepticism when it comes to subjects like these regarding management. Show me a consistent level of these practices, than myself and others will probably gain more confidence in what management says or in what their actions are.




Hang on a sec, I still maintain that there was nowhere near the level of Mario Love that you're projecting here. And I won't go and research it either...hell, it takes long enough for me to write my own thoughts on topics, let alone research thousands of posts and do an essay on it. And nobody wants me to, either. I'm thinking about asking for the Dragon talk-to-text software because my posts are so long. LOL.

The point here is that people saw a bit of talent in Mario that made it nonsense to dismiss the guy completely. His value to this team was that he was probably the most talented guy on what had been a really bad defense for a really long time. He was the star on a sub-standard defense, he made his sacks and he made his run tackles, etc., and there's no way we could lump him in with guys like Travis Johnson and Amobi Okoye. He was, IMO, a sort of stabilizer and not a game changing force on a consistent basis. When we paid him chump change compared to what a Houston texans-Reggie Bush would have looked like, everybody should have known that he was going to play that contract out and IF he survived the MW-VY-RB nuclear war then Mario was going to make sure he got rewarded handsomely for it.

Nobody here felt he was worth his asking price, but IF he could stay then that would be fine. The battle lines I think you are referring to, IMO, exist between the small faction of Mario Lovers and Mario Haters who took an extreme partisan slant on the issue. The majority of people here, from what I gathered in looking at the threads AND participating in the threads too, felt that while he was valued he shouldn't be THE guy on what has become a defense of collective ass-kickers. I don't see that situation containing much flip-flopping, actually. If a few posters reversed their position, then so what? But it's definitely not like everyone rooted for the Confederacy one day and then welcomed the Union forces with open arms the next. Not the way I remember it, at least.


Oh there was a ton of smuckness behind Mario Williams for years. Hell, you'd get chastised by many for calling the guy overrated or not as good as advertised. He never was as good as advertised and I never saw it being that likely that he'd resign here considering what he'd get somewhere else on the open market. Sorry, but when I see people clearly overrating a guy and embellishing their value for months while demolishing people who want him gone, only to turn around and act like the guy wasn't that good any way, well it does come off as pretty fraud. You can't act like a guy is so great and valuable, and than turn right around and change that whole stance the minute he is gone and expect to sound like a valid observer. That's like me going on and on about some hot chick and how badly I want to be with her, and than the minute she disses me, I act like she is ugly or something. And people did want to pay practically whatever for Mario. Maybe they didn't realize how high it was going to be and didn't have a strong awareness of what Mario would get from other teams, but Dale gave many illustrations of what he would cost for months. Either way, he is gone and I am glad. He was over paid here and I think that Mercilious is going to be a more impactful player.

Texecutioner
06-06-2012, 05:27 PM
Stigma. Interesting choice of words. I think conjecture would be a better one although I certainly remember that conjecture. I also remember pointing it out as such back to the Sage Rosenfels asking for a panty shield days.

Similarly I think this Smithiak suddenly became Darth Vader stuff is bunk which is mainly fan past perceptions tinted by lack of success contrasted with fan perceptions based on last season's success.

Sure, it's all fan perception at the end of the day, but it gets derived based off of actions or lack there of by management depending on the situations with different players.



I think Bill's contrast with fan perception of Kubiak is apt. Fan conjecture doesn't equal truth.

Your post pretty much explains it from one side or the other as far as fan perception goes. Bill's post was a typical "drive by" post without any substance towards the discussion.

Lucky
06-06-2012, 06:29 PM
Our cap casualties next year will certainly be Wade Smith and Antonio Smith as I don't believe either of them will warrant their scheduled salaries
Wade Smith will only make $3 million next year. If he's not capable of starting, yes he will get cut. But if he can still start, then $3 million is a pretty good deal. Antonio will make $6 million. That needs to get reduced or removed but at 31, Antonio might be willing to take the $6 million as a bonus and take a vet minimum salary deal for 2013. A that point, you just revisit the deal in 2014.

GP
06-06-2012, 09:18 PM
Wade Smith will only make $3 million next year. If he's not capable of starting, yes he will get cut. But if he can still start, then $3 million is a pretty good deal. Antonio will make $6 million. That needs to get reduced or removed but at 31, Antonio might be willing to take the $6 million as a bonus and take a vet minimum salary deal for 2013. A that point, you just revisit the deal in 2014.

Oh I don't see Antonio Smith going for anything but the BEST he can get. He is way too intense of a personality to take a bonus and then play for a low salary. He'll still think he's being slighted. He is a 100%'er...he thinks if HE gives 100% then the organization better give that 100% right back. I love the guy's effort out there, I truly think he's a role model for the players on defense, but he will not take kindly to getting bonus'd and then playing for a small salary, IMO.

No, I think Antonio Smith and Wade Smith are likely going to be gone. With the way Wade Phillips is expertly throwing together the DL and LB crews...there's a DL guy out there just waiting to become Antonio's replacement....for a rookie's salary that stretches over four years. ;)

badboy
06-06-2012, 10:12 PM
I took from the article/quotes that Rick Smith said he has grown to a level of being a bit detached from emotions. It's been a process. I even think Bob McNair has had to find an inner resolve to detach a bit, as well.

There was a time when we reached for raw players like Amobi and Jacoby, and that came crashing down to the point that both guys are gone and our most recent draft saw no such surprises. They've abandoned a strategy that was part of their "old history."

They also, a bit further back, were not opposed to acquiring the Todd Wades, and the Eric Moulds, and the Ahman Greens of the NFL--the "One Last Payday" crew. This old history, as well, was tanked when McNair and Smith boldly announced that the Texans would no longer be a welcome harbor for aging vets looking for a final payday somewhere.

Another departure from their history is the recent actions of cutting Winston, trading DeMeco, and letting Mario walk completely away. That's not the Texans I knew! The Texans I knew would have kept Winston and Ryans out of pure sentimental reasons. There's nothing like having your back against a wall (cap space) to make you depart from your own history of how we do things. This was not mismanagement of cap space, either, IMO, it was a playoff push mindset in 2011 that was made earlier in 2011 and they waited to pay the bill when it came due in this off-season.

Nobody would have expected the Texans to cut Winston. Nobody would have expected us to trade DeMeco. The half-hearted and maybe even "paltry" offer they made Mario was another sign of how the times are a'changing.

I am definitely including their full history. The recent history looks a lot better than their prior history. And if recent history continues to pay dividends, then they will continue to do business in that "new history" manner until something forces them to change tactics. All in all, we're in the best shape in franchise history...I just think we're so accustomed to being mediocre that we find ourselves distrustful of each new year that greets us.




Hang on a sec, I still maintain that there was nowhere near the level of Mario Love that you're projecting here. And I won't go and research it either...hell, it takes long enough for me to write my own thoughts on topics, let alone research thousands of posts and do an essay on it. And nobody wants me to, either. I'm thinking about asking for the Dragon talk-to-text software because my posts are so long. LOL.

The point here is that people saw a bit of talent in Mario that made it nonsense to dismiss the guy completely. His value to this team was that he was probably the most talented guy on what had been a really bad defense for a really long time. He was the star on a sub-standard defense, he made his sacks and he made his run tackles, etc., and there's no way we could lump him in with guys like Travis Johnson and Amobi Okoye. He was, IMO, a sort of stabilizer and not a game changing force on a consistent basis. When we paid him chump change compared to what a Houston texans-Reggie Bush would have looked like, everybody should have known that he was going to play that contract out and IF he survived the MW-VY-RB nuclear war then Mario was going to make sure he got rewarded handsomely for it.

Nobody here felt he was worth his asking price, but IF he could stay then that would be fine. The battle lines I think you are referring to, IMO, exist between the small faction of Mario Lovers and Mario Haters who took an extreme partisan slant on the issue. The majority of people here, from what I gathered in looking at the threads AND participating in the threads too, felt that while he was valued he shouldn't be THE guy on what has become a defense of collective ass-kickers. I don't see that situation containing much flip-flopping, actually. If a few posters reversed their position, then so what? But it's definitely not like everyone rooted for the Confederacy one day and [/B[B]]then welcomed the Union forces with open arms the next. Not the way I remember it, at least.Was this a Josey Wales referral to the ferry tow boat guy. "Look away Dixie Land...Mine eyes have seen the glory of..."

badboy
06-06-2012, 10:17 PM
Oh I don't see Antonio Smith going for anything but the BEST he can get. He is way too intense of a personality to take a bonus and then play for a low salary. He'll still think he's being slighted. He is a 100%'er...he thinks if HE gives 100% then the organization better give that 100% right back. I love the guy's effort out there, I truly think he's a role model for the players on defense, but he will not take kindly to getting bonus'd and then playing for a small salary, IMO.

No, I think Antonio Smith and Wade Smith are likely going to be gone. With the way Wade Phillips is expertly throwing together the DL and LB crews...there's a DL guy out there just waiting to become Antonio's replacement....for a rookie's salary that stretches over four years. ;)

Why would Antonio be upset for getting more money in his hands more quickly?

GP
06-06-2012, 11:09 PM
Why would Antonio be upset for getting more money in his hands more quickly?

Pride. Ego. Perception. Etc.

GP
06-06-2012, 11:10 PM
Was this a Josey Wales referral to the ferry tow boat guy. "Look away Dixie Land...Mine eyes have seen the glory of..."

Not intentionally, but now I remember that scene! Great movie.

Lucky
06-07-2012, 06:37 AM
Oh I don't see Antonio Smith going for anything but the BEST he can get. He is way too intense of a personality to take a bonus and then play for a low salary.
OK then. I forgot about the "way too intense" factor. My bad.

GP
06-07-2012, 04:28 PM
OK then. I forgot about the "way too intense" factor. My bad.

Har har.

Doesn't he seem like he's probably got it figured out how he wants his career to go, what he wants from the Texans the next time around?

I am not saying he's not a team player. I am saying that he very much comes across as a guy who commits 100% and then expects that same level of support when the papers hit his desk for signing.

Nobody was shocked Kevin Walter took a reduction. I would be very surprised if Antonio took a big bonus and then played for a small salary. In fact, there's no guarantee that the Texans will even offer anything to him with the way our defense has been built.

Out of all the upcoming expiring contracts, Antonio Smith is the one I have pegged for the player (Antonio) making a bit of noise. He will feel he's played himself into better money than he's going to be offered. The drive, the motor, the commitment to moving along the line wherever we want him each year...it could come to a boil, IMO.

thunderkyss
06-07-2012, 05:13 PM
I am not saying he's not a team player.

The forum rules prevent me from telling you what I really think.

GP
06-07-2012, 11:05 PM
The forum rules prevent me from telling you what I really think.

Then PM me.

dalemurphy
06-08-2012, 01:39 AM
Sure, it's all fan perception at the end of the day, but it gets derived based off of actions or lack there of by management depending on the situations with different players. .

I think the changes have more to do with Rick Smith assuming more power/control than with Rick Smith changing.

There was a rumor that I bought into (don't remember the source but I believed it) that Rick Smith desperately wanted an extensive interview process for Defensive Coordinator after the 2008 season but Gary Kubiak wanted Frank Bush. I think the 2010 season failure created a shift of power between Kubiak and Smith... While I believe they have a cooperative relationship, my sense is Smith now has the final say on many personnel matters...

It certainly stands to reason that Kubiak was the one slow to give up on players and coaches. One of his strengths as a leader is his belief and support of those he leads. Instead of trying to change Kubiak, McNair has simply removed the responsibilities Kubiak's giftings don't mesh with. Smith has never been accused of being close with the players. If you recall, Richard Justice slammed him in a column years ago quoting unnamed sources on the team who were complaining about his aloofness and lack of trustworthiness- it was the article responding to the firing of the former trainer, I believe.

TejasTom
06-08-2012, 10:41 AM
Was this a Josey Wales referral to the ferry tow boat guy. "Look away Dixie Land...Mine eyes have seen the glory of..."
MSR for Josey Wales reference.

Smith has never been accused of being close with the players. If you recall, Richard Justice slammed him in a column years ago quoting unnamed sources on the team who were complaining about his aloofness and lack of trustworthiness...

Ahman Green said this publicly in a radio interview a year or two ago.

Marcus
06-08-2012, 10:49 AM
I think the changes have more to do with Rick Smith assuming more power/control than with Rick Smith changing.

There was a rumor that I bought into (don't remember the source but I believed it) that Rick Smith desperately wanted an extensive interview process for Defensive Coordinator after the 2008 season but Gary Kubiak wanted Frank Bush. I think the 2010 season failure created a shift of power between Kubiak and Smith... While I believe they have a cooperative relationship, my sense is Smith now has the final say on many personnel matters...

It certainly stands to reason that Kubiak was the one slow to give up on players and coaches. One of his strengths as a leader is his belief and support of those he leads. Instead of trying to change Kubiak, McNair has simply removed the responsibilities Kubiak's giftings don't mesh with. Smith has never been accused of being close with the players. If you recall, Richard Justice slammed him in a column years ago quoting unnamed sources on the team who were complaining about his aloofness and lack of trustworthiness- it was the article responding to the firing of the former trainer, I believe.

You mean the former trainer that Justice was using for an inside source for all the dirt he could dig up to make himself look good? Consider the source for what it is, and the real reason why he wrote that.

GP
06-08-2012, 12:10 PM
I think the changes have more to do with Rick Smith assuming more power/control than with Rick Smith changing.

There was a rumor that I bought into (don't remember the source but I believed it) that Rick Smith desperately wanted an extensive interview process for Defensive Coordinator after the 2008 season but Gary Kubiak wanted Frank Bush. I think the 2010 season failure created a shift of power between Kubiak and Smith... While I believe they have a cooperative relationship, my sense is Smith now has the final say on many personnel matters...

It certainly stands to reason that Kubiak was the one slow to give up on players and coaches. One of his strengths as a leader is his belief and support of those he leads. Instead of trying to change Kubiak, McNair has simply removed the responsibilities Kubiak's giftings don't mesh with. Smith has never been accused of being close with the players. If you recall, Richard Justice slammed him in a column years ago quoting unnamed sources on the team who were complaining about his aloofness and lack of trustworthiness- it was the article responding to the firing of the former trainer, I believe.

McNair early this year also said that Dom's inability to fire assistants and coordinators was Dom's downfall--Meaning that McNair had to fire Dom because the 2-14 record was a result of Dom sticking with his guys too long.

McNair then said, whether it was direct or indirect I cannot recall, that Gary faced a Dom moment after 2010--Gary could have stood by Bush and charged recklessly into 2011, or he could have fired Bush and moved on.

What isn't agreed upon is the exact person(s) responsible for the Wade Phillips selection. I think Gary is not a logical choice in terms of him being the guy who identified and wanted Wade Phillips. Instead, my current theory is Rick and/or Bob had their eye on Wade, and Bum's lunch with Bob sealed the deal. Gary, IMO, was probably ready and willing to wash his hands of selecting d-coords and gladly rubber stamped the deal......because after all, Gary wisely understands that Wade would be a BOB MCNAIR selection, which means you better toe the line when Bob shows an affinity for someone. Plus, if Wade fails...it's on Bob this time. Win-win for Gary.

Lucky
06-10-2012, 11:56 AM
Plus, if Wade fails...it's on Bob this time. Win-win for Gary.
There was no "win-win" for Kubiak. Either Phillips succeeded, and everyone kept their job. Or Phillips faied, and everyone was out on the street.

Kubiak and Smith's jobs were teetering on the edge, when McNair decided to bring Wade in and give Kubiak one last chance. The move payed off (thus far). But, it was McNair's move.

steelbtexan
06-11-2012, 10:25 AM
There was no "win-win" for Kubiak. Either Phillips succeeded, and everyone kept their job. Or Phillips faied, and everyone was out on the street.

Kubiak and Smith's jobs were teetering on the edge, when McNair decided to bring Wade in and give Kubiak one last chance. The move payed off (thus far). But, it was McNair's move.

Cant rep you.

But this is the way it went down. IMHO

GP
06-11-2012, 04:52 PM
There was no "win-win" for Kubiak. Either Phillips succeeded, and everyone kept their job. Or Phillips faied, and everyone was out on the street.

Kubiak and Smith's jobs were teetering on the edge, when McNair decided to bring Wade in and give Kubiak one last chance. The move payed off (thus far). But, it was McNair's move.

Absolutely no way on earth would McNair have fired Kubiak and Smith if the defense failed again. And every bit of our season hinged upon NOT Kubiak's offense (since it's already a perennial producer) but rather our season hinged upon the defense rebounding and holding off the other three teams in our division. Period.

Your'e saying Bob McNair handed Wade Phillips the 2011 draft, gave him two top-flight free agents (who are arguably tying up some cap space money), and let Wade slide the pieces of the puzzle around all over the field (Mario to OLB and Cushing to MLB for example) to make the 34 defense work with what Wade had...and somehow Kubiak and Smith would have been out on the street after 2011 if we hadn't made playoffs???

Plus, factor in the injuries we sustained on offense: Schaub, AJ, Foster, Leinart, Brisiel.

Plus Plus, factor in a lockout shortened year where nobody on the Texans D really knew the 34 playbook well enough to convince people that the Texans D would be Top 3 all year long.

You even go so far as to say EVERYONE would be out on the street, You seriously think Bob would toss his HC, his GM, and his brand new DC who is Bum Phillips' son??? LOL, slow down tiger. McNair isn't that bold yet.

Normally I'm the one with conspiracy theories, but Lucky your post takes the cake and you might be the new champion. It takes a lot of creativity to post what you posted.

In summation:

1. Hired BUM PHILLIPS son. That's a McNair hire, as you say in your post.

2. Gave Wade the draft in 2011, except for the TJ Yates pick.

3. Gave Wade two top-flight players in free agency. Tying up a lot of cap space for the future.

4. Kubiak's offense, despite catastrophic injuries all year long, still produces what we all know a Kubiak offense to produce. Therefore this is not even up for debate if Kubiak's side of the football was going to endanger our playoff hopes or not in 2011.

5. Lockout-shortened season should have hindered the Texans D and would have been used as an excuse by everyone from top to bottom in the Texans front offices.

6. After all the above data, you're going to say that Kubiak and Smith--and possibly "everyone"--was going to be out of a job if 2011 didn't produce a playoff year for us?

McNair played too many chips just to fold the hand after 2011. He was committed to seeing this thing through.

GP
06-11-2012, 04:55 PM
Cant rep you.

But this is the way it went down. IMHO

Re-examine the argument before committing rep to Lucky. ;)

GP
06-11-2012, 05:08 PM
Cliffs Notes version (for those who hate a GP novel-length post):

Gary Kubiak's job was safe the day he fired Frank Bush.

Bob expected Gary to drop the axe on Frank, and Gary did the hatchet job as he should have. Bob went on, in candid remarks just this past January or February, to spell out how Gary fortunately understood what Dom Capers did not.

It was a win-win for Kubiak because he wasn't going anywhere after 2011 no matter what happened, i.e. all the things I posted about earlier.

Double Barrel
06-11-2012, 05:15 PM
There was no "win-win" for Kubiak. Either Phillips succeeded, and everyone kept their job. Or Phillips faied, and everyone was out on the street.

Kubiak and Smith's jobs were teetering on the edge, when McNair decided to bring Wade in and give Kubiak one last chance. The move payed off (thus far). But, it was McNair's move.

As speculation goes, which is the bulk of this thread, I think this is the scenario that makes the most sense.

McNair is loyal, but he's also a very successful businessman. His customers - the fans - were growing tired of a decade of futility.

If the team had failed to make the playoffs in 2011, especially with Manning out for the season and the three other teams as weak as we have ever seen them in 10 years, I think McNair would have had to do something bold to show Texans Nation that he was more committed to building a winning product than he was committed to a head coach that could not make the playoffs after six seasons.

He would be risking his brand being considered the Bungles south if he continued to support a head coach that could not be successful after 6 seasons. And prior to 2011, that was pretty much the mood of the fanbase, local media, and the national perception of his franchise.

But, as history shows, he never had to make that call.

thunderkyss
06-11-2012, 08:50 PM
Cliffs Notes version (for those who hate a GP novel-length post):

Gary Kubiak's job was safe the day he fired Frank Bush.

Bob expected Gary to drop the axe on Frank, and Gary did the hatchet job as he should have. Bob went on, in candid remarks just this past January or February, to spell out how Gary fortunately understood what Dom Capers did not.

It was a win-win for Kubiak because he wasn't going anywhere after 2011 no matter what happened, i.e. all the things I posted about earlier.

Frank Bush was Kubiak's choice for DC when Kubiak took the Texans' HC job in 2006.

Arizona wouldn't release Frank Bush.

We rolled with Richard Smith.

Frank Bush was released from Arizona and became a part of the Houston Texans in 2007.

The Texans defense was putrid in 2006 (24th), 2007 (24th), & 2008 (22nd).

At no time, did I feel that Frank Bush was the heir apparent. Maybe there was something here or there that alluded to that fact. In an attempt to not rewrite history, lets just say that it took 3 poor seasons from Richard Smith, 2 with Frank Bush as his (or Gary's) right hand man, before Bush finally supplanted Smith & instead of happening immediately as is usually the case when a position is filled internally, the process was pretty drawn out.

Some say (& it's just supposition) that Gary held on to Smith too long out of some kind of loyalty. Some say (& again, it is purely supposition) that Frank Bush was the only option...

But, what if Rick Smith and/or Bob McNair failed to see the leadership traits they'd like in Frank Bush & that is the reason he didn't supplant Richard Smith earlier. What if they were still cautious about him, but couldn't find someone they all liked in 2009.

What if the defensive performance we saw in 2009, was because the guys knew the situation & played extra hard for the "Gip"?

All this to say, what if Bob was telling us the truth when he said Kubiak was very much involved in bringing in Wade Phillips in? What if they used the same "group think" philosophy this group has used on everything else they've done since they've been here?

Was Kubiak ever on the hotseat? Did Bob truly think we were on the right track?

The world may never know.

thunderkyss
06-11-2012, 09:05 PM
I think McNair would have had to do something bold to show Texans Nation that he was more committed to building a winning product than he was committed to a head coach that could not make the playoffs after six seasons.


I also believe Kubiak would have been out if we didn't win our first play-off game.

But I don't think 6 seasons has anything to do with it.

I know we can spit out example after example of teams that have gone from duds to play-offs in Gary's tenure, but I never subscribed to that line of thinking.

I don't believe in year-to-year transformations. I believe there is usually an undercurrent going on, that we don't see for the most part, then when that club finally has success, we think of it as overnight success, even though it wasn't.

San Francisco is a perfect example. I think Mike Nolan started something, Singletary kept it going, & Harbaugh continued building on the foundation Nolan laid.

Making it to the play-offs has so many variables, often we'll see teams that don't belong...... 2011 Broncos, 2010 Seahawks, 2002 Cleveland Browns.... bad teams get to the play-offs all the time. Good teams miss the play-offs all the time.

We either have a good team or we don't & Bob has to be able to tell whether we make the play-offs or not. He has to know if the Head Coach is good or bad for his team. Same thing with the General Manager.

I personally don't think Kubiak is among the better head coaches in the league, but I don't think he is hurting the club..... I don't think he is the weakest link.

I don't really know what Bob thinks of him.

Rey
06-12-2012, 12:36 AM
Everbody in the NFL hires guys they are familiar with and/or may have worked with at sine point.

The great d coordinators in the league were unproven at some point too.

I can't fault kubiak for giving guys a chance to step up. Players or coaches.

Sometimes the things that lead to small failures can be your greatest attributes for success.

Yes unfortunately Gary is going to let guys wear out their welcome sometimes, but that's the same thing that is going to keep people around him loyal to him and giving 100 percent effort.

It's ok for a gm to be disconnected. They aren't generally as close with the team. The head coach has to have guys that will run through a brick wall for him because if he doesn't they will crumble any time adversity strikes.

One thing I can say about Kubiak's texan's texans is that they have always fought hard.

All that said I thought kubiak should have been fired after 2010. But the stars aligned and wade was available. With wade handling the defense completely (which appears to be the case) and with kubiak handling the head coach stuff and the offense I think this team is potent.

Add in a gm that isn't afraid to ruffle some feathers and I think we could be in for a really good run here.

I like the chemistry of this team right now.