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Ibar_Harry
05-17-2005, 12:47 PM
When I looked through the comments and pictures I found it interesting there were zero comments concerning the O-line. I mean nothing about Smith or the young Center. There were a number of comments on the other rookies. In fact the O-line comments centered around the recent O-line FA pickup. Interestingly, like everyone said he was in poor shape. I think that is ominous. They showed a picture of the D-line, but not the O-line. Some would say you are reading too much into this 1st workout, but I think not. This is the one continuing weakness and BJ going down means we can not rely on the TE at the present time to fortify the O-line. I will remain adiment that this team goes nowhere without O-line improvement. In fact I feel we will have a much worse season than last year if the O-line is not fixed. I did pick up on the fact they have changed some of their plays, however. One of the reporters, I believe in the Capers interview, refered to that.

Changing the plays or schemes will give you a temporary advantage until people adjust to what you have changed, but in the final analysis you have to do what you do well to be successful in the long run. Our O-line has to learn to block effectively if we are to go anywhere and have a successful season. The same could be said for the D-line.

Tailgate
05-17-2005, 12:56 PM
When I looked through the comments and pictures I found it interesting there were zero comments concerning the O-line. I mean nothing about Smith or the young Center. There were a number of comments on the other rookies. In fact the O-line comments centered around the recent O-line FA pickup. Interestingly, like everyone said he was in poor shape. I think that is ominous. They showed a picture of the D-line, but not the O-line. Some would say you are reading too much into this 1st workout, but I think not. This is the one continuing weakness and BJ going down means we can not rely on the TE at the present time to fortify the O-line. I will remain adiment that this team goes nowhere without O-line improvement. In fact I feel we will have a much worse season than last year if the O-line is not fixed. I did pick up on the fact they have changed some of their plays, however. One of the reporters, I believe in the Capers interview, refered to that.

Changing the plays or schemes will give you a temporary advantage until people adjust to what you have changed, but in the final analysis you have to do what you do well to be successful in the long run. Our O-line has to learn to block effectively if we are to go anywhere and have a successful season. The same could be said for the D-line.


You are reading too much into it. Hasnt it been like 2 days???? And how could we have a MUCH worse season next year if the O-Line is not improved? Wouldnt it just be the same as last year then? Are you expecting them to worse? Are you expecting our D to be worse too?

Or does all of this simply come from the front page not mentioning our O-Line in a little mini camp when the season is STILL 3 months away?

Ibar_Harry
05-17-2005, 01:04 PM
Again, every facit of the game was mentioned, but the O-line. I will say watch this area closely, as I think it will tell you where we are headed. If we begin to see favorable comments and tibits appearing about the O-line play, then I would say you can begin to think about having an excellent season. I feel the O-line is the key to the Texan's season. Are there worries about the defense, Yes. Capers will focus on that so I don't worry about that aspect of the game. We simply do not have the same focus with the offense. Again, I'm adiment that the slogan for this year's Texans is - So goes the O-line, So goes the Season.

infantrycak
05-17-2005, 01:12 PM
Good lord Ibar, are you sure your not Oliver Stone? The article and slide show obviously concentrated on the stars and new guys on the team. They don't mention the kickers either and several new ones have been signed--think they aren't telling us something about their injuries from last year?

Just as an FYI--it is "adamant."

Double Barrel
05-17-2005, 01:20 PM
Well, to be honest, the O-line is my chief cause for concern. I'm not going to start hand-wringing over it just yet...I'll wait until they actually take to the field before making any judgements.

However, I give them a month of games. If we do not see some protection for Carr within four games, we might have a problem. It doesn't matter how many weapons are at his disposal if they can't give him the time to utilize them properly or he's running for his life every other play. In addition, if we can't establish a running game early in the season, my fear is that we are a one trick pony (and easy to figure out).

While it is disappointing that no major upgrades have been made to the O-line so far, we have to keep it in perspective that there were not a lot of choices available to us. Plus we have to factor into account that they were playing better by the end of last year, so the logic is that they are now into the second year of learning the zone blocking scheme, so they should start to gel this year.

So, while I'm not losing any sleep at the moment about it, I will be looking at our line first and foremost for indications that our entire offense will start coming together.

JDizzle
05-17-2005, 01:28 PM
So goes the O-line, So goes the Season.

Another pearl of wisdom from Harry.

Here's one:

Man who fart in church sit in own pew.

Ibar_Harry
05-17-2005, 01:33 PM
Another pearl of wisdom from Harry.

Here's one:

Man who fart in church sit in own pew.

I think your right Jack, you might want to pray for the O-line.

Ibar_Harry
05-17-2005, 01:45 PM
I was referencing Jack's comments.

Tailgate
05-17-2005, 02:03 PM
Geese guys... its not like anyone is stating anything new here. The Oline of course is going to be a part of our team to watch very closely. But to start deriving bad predictions from 2 days of practice because no one spoke of them on our front page is complete nonsense.

This is supposed to be a time for optimism. Wand has POTENTIAL that supposedly has not been reached yet. How do you know that one more offseason/training camp isnt exactly what he needs to improve a bit? Maybe this line just needs to be TOGETHER as a total unit without being moved around,etc... with another offseason of the mastering the new zone scheme? The offensive line could actually be BETTER next year. It will never be a league leader with this talent... but this is a young team and with our cap room and the draft next year, it WILL be addressed.

Look, people just need to relax a bit. The Joppru situation is unfortunate... and something that could not be predicted. But we may address that before the season starts as well.

I don't know if any of you have noticed but our depth is better than I have EVER seen it and that is big in todays NFL.

Bottom line, this team has improved EVERY year since its inception.... so what do you really have to complain about??

El Tejano
05-17-2005, 02:10 PM
The team improved over the years and I think that as long as we let the guys we have play together they will get better also.

infantrycak
05-17-2005, 02:38 PM
Chester needs to play left tackle, Wands problem is he is NOT athletic enough to play LT, Yes Chester jumps off sides a lot but he has been the best at LT. I think Hodgdon will give Steve a run for his money if anything else get Steve worried about his spot on the line.

JMO, but anyone arguing Pitts should move back to LT is facing a pretty big self-contradiction because Pitts' time at LT should be glaring evidence for letting Wand have another year before messing with the whole left side of the line.

Pitts gave up 15.5 sacks in 2002, plus 3 false starts and 5 holds. In 2003, he improved dramatically on sacks to 5.75 but did trade off with increased penalties to 8 false starts and 7 holds. In other words the Pitts that people think is better than Wand at LT is the 2003 Pitts which we never would have seen if all the cries for him to be replaced had been listened to after 2002. Pitts responded as many if not most 2nd year players do, with a big jump in performance.

Wand gave up 12.5 sacks with just 1 false start and 2 holds (this was on 30 more passing attempts also by the way), i.e. his 1st year was better than Pitts'. There is no reason to expect Wand not to make a typical big jump in 2nd year performance also--something like 5-8 sacks allowed. Plus, we don't jack with the set-up of the best run-blocking side of the OL.

Lucky
05-17-2005, 02:47 PM
...In other words the Pitts that people think is better than Wand at LT is the 2003 Pitts which we never would have seen if all the cries for him to be replaced had been listened to after 2002...
The Texans were replacing Pitts at LT in '03. Pitts worked at RT during the '03 minicamps. Didn't work out that way though (wonder why?). Pitts was a stopgap LT and as that did a serviceable job. Wand has to perform at a higher level than that for the Texans offense to function. Seth's bar must be higher than the '03 version of Pitts.

Tailgate
05-17-2005, 02:51 PM
The Texans were replacing Pitts at LT in '03. Pitts worked at RT during the '03 minicamps. Didn't work out that way though (wonder why?). Pitts was a stopgap LT and as that did a serviceable job. Wand has to perform at a higher level than that for the Texans offense to function. Seth's bar must be higher than the '03 version of Pitts.

Then if we believe in trends.... it looks as though since Wands first year was better than Pitts, then his second year should be better than his as well.

bckey
05-17-2005, 02:57 PM
We can only wonder how good Pitts would have been at LT in 2004.

Tailgate
05-17-2005, 03:03 PM
We can only wonder how good Pitts would have been at LT in 2004.

Cept the staff feels that Wand is a better fit and has more potential for LT, and Pitts is a better guard.... hence utilizing the pieces we have and making our line better OVERALL.

infantrycak
05-17-2005, 03:04 PM
The Texans were replacing Pitts at LT in '03. Pitts worked at RT during the '03 minicamps. Didn't work out that way though (wonder why?). Pitts was a stopgap LT and as that did a serviceable job. Wand has to perform at a higher level than that for the Texans offense to function. Seth's bar must be higher than the '03 version of Pitts.

Yeah, but that was because they thought they were getting Bosselli back--remember he was actually out there working with Wand and Pitts before the final revelation. After that, I don't recall any serious effort to get someone to put at LT. And I see no reason why Wand won't be better than the 2003 Pitts.

Lucky
05-17-2005, 03:20 PM
Yeah, but that was because they thought they were getting Bosselli back--remember he was actually out there working with Wand and Pitts before the final revelation. After that, I don't recall any serious effort to get someone to put at LT...
I was trying not to say the "B" word.

I think #71 "retired" just prior to training camp. Too late to bring in someone else. The 2nd order of business in the '04 minicamps (after changing to zone blocking) was to move Pitts inside. The Texans were never happy with Pitts at LT.

I just don't think Pitts' "progress" at LT should be a measuring stick for Wand. Make it a legit LT going into his 2nd season. That's what Seth needs to live up to.

infantrycak
05-17-2005, 03:24 PM
I was trying not to say the "B" word.

Maybe I need to edit it out so Ses doesn't see it.

I just don't think Pitts' "progress" at LT should be a measuring stick for Wand. Make it a legit LT going into his 2nd season. That's what Seth needs to live up to.

My only real point on the comparison was even as reviled as Pitts was in 2002, he did make a dramatic improvement, enough that some rosy memoried people want to deny Wand the opportunity to make a big improvement in his 2nd year as a starter. I think that would be a mistake and expect to see Wand make a big jump in performance this year.

Meloy
05-17-2005, 05:05 PM
Good lord Ibar, are you sure your not Oliver Stone? The article and slide show obviously concentrated on the stars and new guys on the team. They don't mention the kickers either and several new ones have been signed--think they aren't telling us something about their injuries from last year?

Just as an FYI--it is "adamant."
Wasn't Adam Ant a rock group?

Meloy
05-17-2005, 05:23 PM
Seriously, I have to vote against the naysayers. Wand should improve. The blocking scheme seemed to offer some hope at end of season. Wand has the new guy pushing him and adding depth at all oline positions. Carr will probably be using quicker release steps. We have another DD protogee with Morancy that hopefully will keep a fresh back at Carr's disposal. It will be interesting. I think the additions on D side of the ball might help to win games also.

Algebrat
05-17-2005, 05:28 PM
Seriously, I have to vote against the naysayers. Wand should improve. The blocking scheme seemed to offer some hope at end of season. Wand has the new guy pushing him and adding depth at all oline positions. Carr will probably be using quicker release steps. We have another DD protogee with Morancy that hopefully will keep a fresh back at Carr's disposal. It will be interesting. I think the additions on D side of the ball might help to win games also.

I have to agree. Why replace a guy after one season. Most players' first year in the NFL is a learning experience. Give him a chance to improve. Now...if he struggles this season as much as last, maybe you look at one of those left tackles in the next draft.

TexansTrueFan
05-17-2005, 07:26 PM
When I looked through the comments and pictures I found it interesting there were zero comments concerning the O-line. I mean nothing about Smith or the young Center. There were a number of comments on the other rookies. In fact the O-line comments centered around the recent O-line FA pickup. Interestingly, like everyone said he was in poor shape. I think that is ominous. They showed a picture of the D-line, but not the O-line. Some would say you are reading too much into this 1st workout, but I think not. This is the one continuing weakness and BJ going down means we can not rely on the TE at the present time to fortify the O-line. I will remain adiment that this team goes nowhere without O-line improvement. In fact I feel we will have a much worse season than last year if the O-line is not fixed. I did pick up on the fact they have changed some of their plays, however. One of the reporters, I believe in the Capers interview, refered to that.

Changing the plays or schemes will give you a temporary advantage until people adjust to what you have changed, but in the final analysis you have to do what you do well to be successful in the long run. Our O-line has to learn to block effectively if we are to go anywhere and have a successful season. The same could be said for the D-line.


oh geez just cause they failed to put up a pic, of the MOST UNPOPULAR positions in the NFL you think its cause ours still stinks. Dont get me wrong Ibar i am used to u beign negative but come on. if they hadnt showed a pic of AJ, or Carr, would that mean they now stink to ????? LOL :pigfly:

ojthecat
05-17-2005, 09:20 PM
What I haven't heard anyone comment on is how smart IBAR is. HMMM what does that say? :confused:

TexansTrueFan
05-18-2005, 12:53 AM
What I haven't heard anyone comment on is how smart IBAR is. HMMM what does that say? :confused:


IQ test anyone ! LOL

Ibar_Harry
05-18-2005, 03:11 PM
This gives you some input on where they are headed with the O-line. (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/news_detail.php?PRKey=1695)

At least we have an idea of what they are thinking. Looks like McKinny can't be as secure as before and looks like they might be targeting Wiegert. I still think Wiegert is better than most of our O-linemen, but is injury prone. Wade also might be open for discussion. However, its still who is the best 5. Seems like a lot of our players can play a lot of positions, but I'm not certain they do any of them very well. May be that's our problem. At least they are showing some signs of recognizing that the O-line is important. The last comment about AJ, Carr, and DD by Wand was very interesting. What do you guys make of that?

Hervoyel
05-18-2005, 03:18 PM
I think he's pointing out that recievers, quarterbacks, and runningbacks all operate to some extent independently while the line requires 5 players (sometimes 6) to operate together.

BFOTO

El Tejano
05-18-2005, 03:22 PM
I think he was basically saying that playing on the Oline is more of a team effort than being at one of the skill postions. I do like the fact that we have several other options at the tackle position than most of us realized. It should be nice to see them together after a full year (first time in team history).

Ibar_Harry
05-18-2005, 03:37 PM
I thought the QB and the line as well need to know what each other is going to do and have a feeling on how to adjust when things go sour. I didn't think the QB operated independently of his line. The runner may well change his mind, but he has to also trust the hole will be there. I'm a little perplexed by the statement.

Tailgate
05-18-2005, 04:05 PM
At least they are showing some signs of recognizing that the O-line is important.HUH??? So before this article the coaches and staff were thinking the O-Line was not important??? This is the NFL. The coaches are ALWAYS aware of the importance of EVERY position. Its a matter of circumstance as to how they can address them.

ATX
05-18-2005, 04:14 PM
We can only wonder how good Pitts would have been at LT in 2004.

yeah, but then we'd all be crying because we need a left guard. i think pitts is one of those guys that will be a texan for a long time and will probably play some LT if wand goes down. always good when you have a guy who can play guard and tackle.

Chance_C
05-18-2005, 04:37 PM
I'm a little perplexed by the statement.

You would be.

Hervoyel
05-18-2005, 05:53 PM
I thought the QB and the line as well need to know what each other is going to do and have a feeling on how to adjust when things go sour. I didn't think the QB operated independently of his line. The runner may well change his mind, but he has to also trust the hole will be there. I'm a little perplexed by the statement.

It's simple Ibar. A QB can deviate from the play. A RB and WR can too and often do. Maybe something the defense does makes it necessary or maybe they see something that can be exploited. Either way it happens and it's acceptable for the players at these positions to do this. When a TE goes out to catch a pass the same thing applies. Keep in mind that they can do this but more often than not they don't.

If one lineman goes off on his own and does what he wants to do nothing good comes from that. Think of the linemen (all of them) as "one player". They're 5 guys but they must execute as a single unit.