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View Full Version : Coach Joe says Tricycle Holliday still in mix for KR spot


ObsiWan
05-17-2012, 01:59 AM
LINK (http://blog.houstontexans.com/2012/05/15/joe-marciano-gives-the-rundown-on-texans-special-teams/)

Texans special teams coordinator Joe Marciano joined “Texans All Access” on Tuesday on SportsRadio 610, giving insightful comments on the competition spots in the special teams unit.
The entire interview (http://old.houstontexans.com/news/PodcastCentral2.asp?AUTO=Y&EID=2103) is worth a listen — Marciano also discussed the upcoming “First Down Dads” event (http://www.houstontexans.com/community/first-down-dads.html) on June 9 — but here’s a snapshot of what he said:

Kick Returner
Asked about fourth-round draft pick Keshawn Martin’s return skills, Marciano said wide receivers Juaquin Iglesias and Trindon Holliday are also in the mix to return kicks for the Texans in 2012. The “sleeper of the group,” he said, is Davin Meggett, an undrafted rookie running back from Maryland and the son of former Pro Bowl returner Dave Meggett. “When I first got in the league, his dad torched me back in the day,” Marciano said. “His dad was a dynamite returner. He can do both punts and kickoffs.” Marciano said Holliday, one of the fastest players in college football history (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-1/Holliday-headlines-late-round-picks/48533E99-F65C-426D-BEF1-E97C4060E634), “can be a dynamite returner in this league,” adding: “I would hate to play against him. But the thing about him here, he has to make it as a receiver. We don’t have the luxury just to carry an extra guy (solely as a returner).”


Looks like the tiny one will get one last chance to make it here.
:cool:

rmartin65
05-17-2012, 07:59 AM
Why not? He is under contract still. He has game changing speed. If he does not produce, then cut him. But give him OTAs and TC to prove if he can play or not.

GP
05-17-2012, 10:17 AM
Year 3 of this project.

This is what I mean when I say "If you just find a way to stick on the PS or roster...Gary will give you roughly 3 or even 4 years to hang around and develop."

I understand it's not costing the team much of anything to keep him around, but does anybody really think he's going to suddenly catch fire and make noise I'm his third year?

I'd like to see guys like him get 2 years max. After that, clear out the clutter and sign new guys to have their 2-year chance at making the team. I guess the only thing, though, is how that would affect cap space.

The Pencil Neck
05-17-2012, 10:36 AM
Year 3 of this project.

This is what I mean when I say "If you just find a way to stick on the PS or roster...Gary will give you roughly 3 or even 4 years to hang around and develop."

I understand it's not costing the team much of anything to keep him around, but does anybody really think he's going to suddenly catch fire and make noise I'm his third year?

I'd like to see guys like him get 2 years max. After that, clear out the clutter and sign new guys to have their 2-year chance at making the team. I guess the only thing, though, is how that would affect cap space.

Some times guys take a while to develop. I'm not too worried about trying to develop a couple of guys here and there on the PS (like Nading , Jamison, and Bulman, etc.) and giving them multiple chances to make the team. It's not like we've got a platoon of guys who've been on the PS for 4 years at the expense of no newer, younger PS guys.

Most guys only last a year or two before they're gone: Zabransky, Brink, Dickerson, Abbate, etc. You're only noticing Holliday because he's been around awhile and most guys don't last that long.

bckey
05-17-2012, 11:09 AM
No way this guy makes the team this year with all the new wrs the Texans added in the draft. Keyshawn Martin alone will end Holiday's career here. I never saw much of anything from this guy. As much as I grew to dislike Jacoby after each passing year he still was better than this guy.

jaayteetx
05-17-2012, 11:18 AM
No way this guy makes the team this year with all the new wrs the Texans added in the draft. Keyshawn Martin alone will end Holiday's career here. I never saw much of anything from this guy. As much as I grew to dislike Jacoby after each passing year he still was better than this guy.
How do you know that? He never got a chance on the field.

Rey
05-17-2012, 02:12 PM
Year 3 of this project.

This is what I mean when I say "If you just find a way to stick on the PS or roster...Gary will give you roughly 3 or even 4 years to hang around and develop."

I understand it's not costing the team much of anything to keep him around, but does anybody really think he's going to suddenly catch fire and make noise I'm his third year?

I'd like to see guys like him get 2 years max. After that, clear out the clutter and sign new guys to have their 2-year chance at making the team. I guess the only thing, though, is how that would affect cap space.

His first year he was hurt and went on ir.

Last year he played limited snaps in pre season, but I believe he had one catch in a two minute drill situation. Last year was his first real football year. He spent time on the practice squad, was called up for a game or two, didn't get the chance to field any kicks and was sent back down.

I want the best team possible. Trindon has something that nobody else on the team has and maybe not many people in the league....world class speed. And he's not just a track guy. He is a football player and he loves the game.

If trindon gets the opportunity and provides us with big play capability then great. If he doesnt, we cut him and move on. No biggie. (no pun intended)

The Pencil Neck
05-17-2012, 02:48 PM
Last year was his first real football year. He spent time on the practice squad, was called up for a game or two, didn't get the chance to field any kicks and was sent back down.

He "fielded" kicks but they were touchbacks and fair catches. He was back there for some kick returns and some punt returns against the Titans.

But then someone was hurt and we needed to his spot and cut him.

At this point, he's kind of a luxury we haven't been able to afford.

EDIT: "Some" might have been too strong a term. I saw him out there for at least 1 each in the first Titans game.

Dutchrudder
05-17-2012, 03:17 PM
He was waste of capspace, cut the cord already.

badboy
05-17-2012, 03:40 PM
LINK (http://blog.houstontexans.com/2012/05/15/joe-marciano-gives-the-rundown-on-texans-special-teams/)


Looks like the tiny one will get one last chance to make it here.
:cool:we have luxury to carry a LS to do just one thing and I'd argur returns is pretty dang significant.

Thorn
05-17-2012, 04:05 PM
If he can play up to his potential, it will have been worth the wait. I don't see it happening though.

TimeKiller
05-17-2012, 05:07 PM
He was waste of capspace, cut the cord already.

And you've got a suggestion for a better, cheaper 6th WR/backup kick returner?


My thing with Holliday is find a way to maximize his abilities rather than peg him into a hole he may struggle in. Such as receiving. If he can't catch, hand him the ball. Don't tell me a DL or LBer is going to beat him to the edge on a stretch play. I'm not saying he didn't need practice squad time, I'm saying play to his strengths.

SCOTTexans
05-17-2012, 05:25 PM
May the best man win. He is cheap competition for Martin and has potential

Rey
05-17-2012, 05:26 PM
He "fielded" kicks but they were touchbacks and fair catches. He was back there for some kick returns and some punt returns against the Titans.

But then someone was hurt and we needed to his spot and cut him.

At this point, he's kind of a luxury we haven't been able to afford.

EDIT: "Some" might have been too strong a term. I saw him out there for at least 1 each in the first Titans game.

I don't view him as a luxury. Either he's helping the team with big kick returns or he's not. If he's not, he's not making the team, period.

We're not keeping him for his wr skills. He has to provide tremendous value as a return man and if he does that I think we'll find a way to keep him.

Trindon hasn't been kept around these few years in hopes that he'll develop into some dynamic receiver. Sure he needs to provide some value there but I don't view him as a luxury. I view him as any other player. Youre either good enough at what you do in order to justify a roster spit or not.

In his case I believe he'll have to be the primary punt and kick returnee and do both very well.

Rey
05-17-2012, 05:30 PM
And you've got a suggestion for a better, cheaper 6th WR/backup kick returner?


My thing with Holliday is find a way to maximize his abilities rather than peg him into a hole he may struggle in. Such as receiving. If he can't catch, hand him the ball. Don't tell me a DL or LBer is going to beat him to the edge on a stretch play. I'm not saying he didn't need practice squad time, I'm saying play to his strengths.

A lb can get to the edge first easily. Technique and angles will help with that. It helps to have speed when talking about getting to the sidelines, but speed isn't the only factor and lots of fast guys struggle to get to the edges.

All that said, if trindon isn't providing value on returns he's not making it for his offensive capabilities.

Insideop
05-17-2012, 07:08 PM
I think Martin was brought in primarily as a KR/PR that has some good WR skills, and since they cut Jacoby, I think it will be his job to lose. This will make it tough for Holliday to make the team IMO.

GP
05-17-2012, 07:28 PM
And you've got a suggestion for a better, cheaper 6th WR/backup kick returner?


My thing with Holliday is find a way to maximize his abilities rather than peg him into a hole he may struggle in. Such as receiving. If he can't catch, hand him the ball. Don't tell me a DL or LBer is going to beat him to the edge on a stretch play. I'm not saying he didn't need practice squad time, I'm saying play to his strengths.

Maehl.

He's actually a WR whereas Holliday is not.

TimeKiller
05-17-2012, 08:48 PM
A lb can get to the edge first easily. Technique and angles will help with that. It helps to have speed when talking about getting to the sidelines, but speed isn't the only factor and lots of fast guys struggle to get to the edges.

All that said, if trindon isn't providing value on returns he's not making it for his offensive capabilities.

True. You have to be playing disciplined angles to keep Holliday's kind of speed in check though, especially if he's coming out of the backfield where you probably can't see him after the snap.


Maehl.

He's actually a WR whereas Holliday is not.

Holliday is a bubble player. He probably isn't going to make the final cut unless he does something special. I think fans fell in love with him coming out of college, getting drafted for being crazy fast and were a little too disappointed when he didn't make much noise. They could do a LOT worse for a 6th or 7th best WR who probably makes the P squad again.

Jeff Maehl is a bubble player too. We're really talkin Psquad receivers? LOL....good night y'all.

ObsiWan
05-17-2012, 11:01 PM
we have luxury to carry a LS to do just one thing and I'd argur returns is pretty dang significant.

I think the LS spot is a specialty position like the punter. Both are on the squad to do their one, single thing and do it flawlessly. Unless Holliday is a major threat to break a long one whenever the touches the ball - and Coach Joe kinda hinted he is - then he has a spot; otherwise has to contribute in some other fashion like WR or change-of-pace RB.

Hands from everyone who shutters at the thought of Holliday at RB and needing to pick up a blitzing LB....

[Schaub raises hand]
[Yates raises hand]
[Kubiak turns away... not wanting to look] :D

Ryan
05-17-2012, 11:56 PM
Jeff Maehl is a bubble player too. We're really talkin Psquad receivers? LOL....good night y'all.

Guess you haven't been hearing all the hooplah about LeStar Jean recently. It's the offseason at its finest.

GP
05-18-2012, 12:26 AM
Jeff Maehl is a bubble player too. We're really talkin Psquad receivers? LOL....good night y'all.

Oh I see. You tricked me when you said "Who else can be a better, cheaper 6th/7th WR and return kicks?" I thought you were actually wanting a name. My bad.

I think you didn't think through your statement and now you're stuck with the fact that you never thought Jeff Maehl could do what Holliday does and actually be better than Holliday at it.

IIRC, the Texans in camp last year tried to have Holliday play some WR and it was a farce. So, IMO, Maehl is the answer to the question...if you were genuinely wanting an answer in the first place. Which I guess you weren't, though you did ask who we had that can do the job for the same pay and same talent level.

Btw, Holliday sucks.

Bulls on Parade
05-18-2012, 12:28 AM
Are the Texans planning to carry five or six wide receivers on this year's roster? I know that Kubiak always preferred to carry an extra tight end and one less wideout in the past.

GP
05-18-2012, 01:03 AM
Are the Texans planning to carry five or six wide receivers on this year's roster? I know that Kubiak always preferred to carry an extra tight end and one less wideout in the past.

I tried to search for a September 2011 depth chart, but could never find one. I gave up after clicking on a few links on the first page of results.

I thought he carried 5, but maybe he carried 6. Cannot remember for sure.

This offense has never really gone to the 3rd WR anyways. It's been AJ and KW with a sprinkling of JJ for good measure every now and then.

We simply use the TEs too much for a WR3 to be much of a mover/shaker for us. Oh, and that run game thing that we do so well. That's why I think it's vital for Posey or Jean to step up and show heart. If KW remains our WR2 then we better hope defenses don't crack the Foster-Tate nut and smash it into little pieces.

We need better WR2 play than what we have in KW. And I like what KW brings to the table, but still....

kiwitexansfan
05-18-2012, 01:34 AM
I hope they use their creativity to try and take advantage of his special skills, and by special skills I mean his blinding speed. :jogger:

Screens, end arounds, maybe even a few touches in the backfield, just some things that make the defense move a step slower just because you never know.

Rey
05-18-2012, 04:43 AM
Oh I see. You tricked me when you said "Who else can be a better, cheaper 6th/7th WR and return kicks?" I thought you were actually wanting a name. My bad.

I think you didn't think through your statement and now you're stuck with the fact that you never thought Jeff Maehl could do what Holliday does and actually be better than Holliday at it.

IIRC, the Texans in camp last year tried to have Holliday play some WR and it was a farce. So, IMO, Maehl is the answer to the question...if you were genuinely wanting an answer in the first place. Which I guess you weren't, though you did ask who we had that can do the job for the same pay and same talent level.

Btw, Holliday sucks.

Mahael is not a kick returner.

Rey
05-18-2012, 04:53 AM
We simply use the TEs too much for a WR3 to be much of a mover/shaker for us. Oh, and that run game thing that we do so well. That's why I think it's vital for Posey or Jean to step up and show heart. If KW remains our WR2 then we better hope defenses don't crack the Foster-Tate nut and smash it into little pieces


We use two te's a lot, but prior to this past season our number three was getting a bunch of looks. A few factors played into the change in output from that position, but kubiak has shown that he can call his offenses around what's working.

Plus, if we give Andre a little more rest to try to keep him fresh that gives even more opportunities to a third wr.

TejasTom
05-18-2012, 07:21 AM
I tried to search for a September 2011 depth chart, but could never find one. I gave up after clicking on a few links on the first page of results...

it was four on opening day:

Andre Johnson
Kevin Walter
Jacoby Jones
Bryant Johnson

We also had four running backs and seven corner backs.

Here is media guide: opening day 2011 (http://prod.static.texans.clubs.nfl.com/assets/clubimages/2011-1-Houston.pdf) go to page 40 for roster by position.

That seems like so long ago.

CloakNNNdagger
05-18-2012, 08:26 AM
And you've got a suggestion for a better, cheaper 6th WR/backup kick returner?


My thing with Holliday is find a way to maximize his abilities rather than peg him into a hole he may struggle in. Such as receiving. If he can't catch, hand him the ball. Don't tell me a DL or LBer is going to beat him to the edge on a stretch play. I'm not saying he didn't need practice squad time, I'm saying play to his strengths.

This is was I was hoping to see the Texans do.........but they never have. His speed and "invisibiity" in a crowd could make him a formidable weapon.

CloakNNNdagger
05-18-2012, 08:43 AM
I think the LS spot is a specialty position like the punter. Both are on the squad to do their one, single thing and do it flawlessly. Unless Holliday is a major threat to break a long one whenever the touches the ball - and Coach Joe kinda hinted he is - then he has a spot; otherwise has to contribute in some other fashion like WR or change-of-pace RB.

Hands from everyone who shutters at the thought of Holliday at RB and needing to pick up a blitzing LB....

[Schaub raises hand]
[Yates raises hand]
[Kubiak turns away... not wanting to look] :D


His RB plays could be patterned with the QB in the shotgun to minimize that concern.

ArlingtonTexan
05-18-2012, 09:15 AM
I think the LS spot is a specialty position like the punter. Both are on the squad to do their one, single thing and do it flawlessly. Unless Holliday is a major threat to break a long one whenever the touches the ball - and Coach Joe kinda hinted he is - then he has a spot; otherwise has to contribute in some other fashion like WR or change-of-pace RB.


Yeah, I think people get confused with a LS doing the job near flawlessly versus somebody on the roster doing pretty good. that difference between the handful of poor snaps would be direct points or extreme changes in field position. that's why darn near every team in the NFL carries a dedicated long-snapper.

Unless, you have one of the handful of dynamic KRs in the league, then having a pretty good versus good one is not as big a deal. remember when the Texans had another below average sized KR who could not play WR.

Playoffs
05-18-2012, 09:22 AM
http://images.chron.com/photos/2010/08/04/22767561/600xPopupGallery.jpg

GP
05-18-2012, 10:18 AM
Mahael is not a kick returner.

Correct. But he IS a WR.

So in one hand we have a returner being forced into WR duty. In the other hand we have a WR trying returns.

Either way, you'd be sacrificing one thing for another. They're equally on the bubble, but my reply was geared toward the idea that there was no other option for a 6th WR who can return punts.

Manning has handled kickoffs before and Maehl could handle punts. We're not locked into giving Holliday a third year unless Kubiak is giving him the Jacoby treatment...which seems to be the case. Patient and loyal, the Kubiak way.

The Pencil Neck
05-18-2012, 10:52 AM
it was four on opening day:

Andre Johnson
Kevin Walter
Jacoby Jones
Bryant Johnson

We also had four running backs and seven corner backs.

Here is media guide: opening day 2011 (http://prod.static.texans.clubs.nfl.com/assets/clubimages/2011-1-Houston.pdf) go to page 40 for roster by position.

That seems like so long ago.

We started the season with Arian in street clothes, which I think is why we had 4 RBs. We hadn't released Slaton, yet.

And... I thought Roc Carmichael started the season on IR...

Rey
05-18-2012, 10:56 AM
Correct. But he IS a WR.

So in one hand we have a returner being forced into WR duty. In the other hand we have a WR trying returns.

Either way, you'd be sacrificing one thing for another. They're equally on the bubble, but my reply was geared toward the idea that there was no other option for a 6th WR who can return punts.

Manning has handled kickoffs before and Maehl could handle punts. We're not locked into giving Holliday a third year unless Kubiak is giving him the Jacoby treatment...which seems to be the case. Patient and loyal, the Kubiak way.

I doubt they are going to have Mahael handling punts. That was my point.

And manning is Really good at kick returns, but I doubt they want him doing that full time.

Trindon is being forced to play wr, but he's only making the team if he wows on kick returns.

I don't get why people keep talking about him in the offense. Yes he needs to be able to relieve someone due to injury or fatigue, but his ticket to making the team is being the absolute best return man on the roster. He needs to dazzle in that area.

Whether or not he can line up and take 50 snaps at wr will not mean a whole lot.

Mahael is a better receiver, but as a returner holiday could easily have a bigger impact and get more touches than a end of the rotation receiver.

infantrycak
05-18-2012, 05:23 PM
And manning is Really good at kick returns, but I doubt they want him doing that full time.

Why? People say this kind of thing all the time just because someone is a starter but the NFL doesn't bear it out. Devin Hester is a starting WR also doing both punt and kick returns. Arguably one of the best CB's of all time (far better no offense to Manning) also did returns and played WR - Deion Sanders.

drs23
05-18-2012, 05:39 PM
Why? People say this kind of thing all the time just because someone is a starter but the NFL doesn't bear it out. Devin Hester is a starting WR also doing both punt and kick returns. Arguably one of the best CB's of all time (far better no offense to Manning) also did returns and played WR - Deion Sanders.

My thought as well. Manning, when he did get hurt, it wasn't returning kick offs. Any player can go down on any play.

gary
05-18-2012, 05:53 PM
He may start by catching the football.

TejasTom
05-19-2012, 07:07 AM
And... I thought Roc Carmichael started the season on IR...

I think he was injured in camp but not put on IR until Friday after the 1st game. See Pro Football Weekly (http://www.profootballweekly.com/2011/09/16/texans-place-rookie-cb-carmichael-on-ir)

EllisUnit
05-19-2012, 09:30 AM
i dont care who returns KR/PR as long as they go north and south.

thunderkyss
05-19-2012, 11:14 AM
Year 3 of this project.

This is what I mean when I say "If you just find a way to stick on the PS or roster...Gary will give you roughly 3 or even 4 years to hang around and develop."

I understand it's not costing the team much of anything to keep him around, but does anybody really think he's going to suddenly catch fire and make noise I'm his third year?

I'd like to see guys like him get 2 years max. After that, clear out the clutter and sign new guys to have their 2-year chance at making the team. I guess the only thing, though, is how that would affect cap space.

Does the name Tramon Williams ring a bell?

I think it's going to be different for every position, and different for every person. For all we know, Trindon has been sitting out because of health issues.... last year, Coach might have talked him into being a medical casualty with the agreement that he'll be brought to camp again..... probably a better offer than he'd have gotten anywhere.

But these kids have talent, I defintiely wouldn't give up on any of them until I've got a bonafide replacement. At kick return, we've got Danieal Manning, but that's a house of cards. Behind Manning, we've got squat.

Next year, Manning will be the only one on our team with return experience in the NFL. Not a big deal, I think, as long as we have plenty of options.... not a Jacoby or no one else option.

Rey
05-19-2012, 11:47 AM
Why? People say this kind of thing all the time just because someone is a starter but the NFL doesn't bear it out. Devin Hester is a starting WR also doing both punt and kick returns. Arguably one of the best CB's of all time (far better no offense to Manning) also did returns and played WR - Deion Sanders.

Did you miss the part where I said full time?

I didn't sat they never wanted him taking returns, I clearly said "full time".

Manning and Hester were on the same team ya know. Hester couldn't return every kick since manning was also returning kicks. And Hester has returned less kicks since becoming a starting wr. And the bears went out and got better wr's this off season, so expect Hester to see less offensive snaps and more returns.

And Deion didn't return every kick and punt either. And really he is an exception since he was a threat to score just about any time he touched a ball.

Teams generally don't want high priced, important starters playing special teams full time, and some don't want them playing it at all. That's just a fact and any argument against it is silly.

And the NFL does bear that out. A vast majority of starters in the NFL are not playing special teams.

Rey
05-19-2012, 11:53 AM
My thought as well. Manning, when he did get hurt, it wasn't returning kick offs. Any player can go down on any play.

Doesn't matter when he got hurt. Additional wear on your body is additional wear on your body. Especially as a player gets up in age.

You can tweak something on one play and full out injur yourself on another.

But the point is that it's additional exposure to injury.

Barwin used to play a bunch of special teams when he first got here. He became a starter and now he doesn't play them much if at all really.

He didn't get injured on a special teams play. He got injured on defense. But that has nothing to do with why teams generally don't have prominent starters playing special teams. Its exposure.

infantrycak
05-19-2012, 03:27 PM
But that has nothing to do with why teams generally don't have prominent starters playing special teams. Its exposure.

So now it is prominent starters? Is Manning a prominent starter? Or is two time pro-bowler, two time all-pro Vonta Leach who has been used on special teams by both the Texans and the Ravens a prominent starter? You think maybe the fullback has a little more contact at his ordinary position?

Look, I agree if a team has someone with close to the same skill set they will prefer the non-starter for special teams. I just don't think it is as hard a rule as you seem to be making it.

Rey
05-20-2012, 04:36 AM
So now it is prominent starters? Is Manning a prominent starter? Or is two time pro-bowler, two time all-pro Vonta Leach who has been used on special teams by both the Texans and the Ravens a prominent starter? You think maybe the fullback has a little more contact at his ordinary position?

Look, I agree if a team has someone with close to the same skill set they will prefer the non-starter for special teams. I just don't think it is as hard a rule as you seem to be making it.

Vonta leach is a part time player despite his starter status. In ant given game he can technically not start.

Look, I never said starters don't play special teams. I've been pretty clear with that.

But starters generally don't play special teams FULL TIME. Period.

Most of the special teams guys in the NFL are back ups and there's a reason for that and it's not because all the back ups are better at it than the starters. You don't want starters playing full time special teams.

What are you even arguing?

I didn't say it's a hard rule. I didn't say starters NEVER play special teams.

And it has nothing to do with a back up being close in skill set. Cushing would be a beast on special teams easily, but they are not about to have him out there covering kicks and punts all game long in addition to being the starting MLB.

Jonathan Joseph would probably make a really good gunner on punt teams. They aren't going to have him out there either.

Andre johnson could probably be a beast on special teams too. Jj watt as well.

Those guys would make the special teams much better. Still you aren't going to run then out there often and some not at all.

If you recall, last year they really didnt want manning doing st full time. But they had him do it as much as he did because he's one if the best in the NFL and everyone else was basically pathetic.

thunderkyss
05-20-2012, 06:57 PM
Why? People say this kind of thing all the time just because someone is a starter but the NFL doesn't bear it out. Devin Hester is a starting WR also doing both punt and kick returns. Arguably one of the best CB's of all time (far better no offense to Manning) also did returns and played WR - Deion Sanders.

I think those are the exceptions to the rule. Devin Hester is a better Punt/kick returner than he is a WR. He was actually a CB they switched to offense because they were desperate for offensive play-makers.

Deon was Deon & was going to do what he wanted to do. He was also exceptional, same as Hester, at getting points out of the return game.

Danieal Manning is not. He missed games with the Bears with a broken leg, he missed games with us with a broken leg...... He is most definitely better than most on our team in the return game, so he may not be replaced right away.

But I for one would like to see less of him returning kicks, at least until I see better play from Nolan or Demps.

ObsiWan
05-21-2012, 02:25 PM
I think those are the exceptions to the rule. Devin Hester is a better Punt/kick returner than he is a WR. He was actually a CB they switched to offense because they were desperate for offensive play-makers.

Deon was Deon & was going to do what he wanted to do. He was also exceptional, same as Hester, at getting points out of the return game.

Danieal Manning is not. He missed games with the Bears with a broken leg, he missed games with us with a broken leg...... He is most definitely better than most on our team in the return game, so he may not be replaced right away.

But I for one would like to see less of him returning kicks, at least until I see better play from Nolan or Demps.

Not me. Of our returners of late, Manning has been the most effective. And as was pointed out earlier, he got hurt playing his position, not returning kicks.

Think this through... it's his vision, speed, and decision-making that makes him special as a kick returner. And that same vision, speed, and decision-making (like seeing when to step out of bounds) will keep him from being blind-sided.

When someone who isn't a starter steps up and shows equivalent return ability, you can bet a paycheck, Kubiak will insert the non-starting guy into that spot. With the promising cast of youngsters coming into camp this year, Manning's days of being the #1 return guy are probably coming to a close anyhow. So, by the end of preseason, this may all turn out to be moot.

But, hey, what else we got to do until they open the gates for training camp...?
:D

GP
05-21-2012, 03:31 PM
I'd like to see us start on the 20. Period. Just give me the ball at our 20 and let us go to work, doing what we do best: Moving the chains.

I know sometimes the ball is received between the 20 and the goal line, but most of the times it seems we field a kickoff inside our end zone and then run it out. Why? The odds are not in our favor. The odds are stacked in favor of us starting within our own 20...not AT our own 20, which then means our returner faces the risk of an injury, or the risk of fumbling the ball.

To that degree, I would rather risk a 4th round WR on kickoffs than our premier starting safety that earns more money. OK, so we're down to an opponent...it's late in the game...we need a spark on a kickoff return...THEN you can add Manning into the game at kickoff returner and see if he can get us down the field.

But the majority of times, I'd like to see us play it safe and just take what is given to us. And on punt returns, Jacoby fell in love with trying to hit a home run every time...trying to make himself relevant for next year's roster...when instead, he should have just played it smart. Our return game needs to be smarter, less flashy, and just generally working to compliment our already potent offense that can make its own luck just fine.

ObsiWan
05-21-2012, 04:19 PM
I'd like to see us start on the 20. Period. Just give me the ball at our 20 and let us go to work, doing what we do best: Moving the chains.

I know sometimes the ball is received between the 20 and the goal line, but most of the times it seems we field a kickoff inside our end zone and then run it out. Why? The odds are not in our favor. The odds are stacked in favor of us starting within our own 20...not AT our own 20, which then means our returner faces the risk of an injury, or the risk of fumbling the ball.

To that degree, I would rather risk a 4th round WR on kickoffs than our premier starting safety that earns more money. OK, so we're down to an opponent...it's late in the game...we need a spark on a kickoff return...THEN you can add Manning into the game at kickoff returner and see if he can get us down the field.

But the majority of times, I'd like to see us play it safe and just take what is given to us. And on punt returns, Jacoby fell in love with trying to hit a home run every time...trying to make himself relevant for next year's roster...when instead, he should have just played it smart. Our return game needs to be smarter, less flashy, and just generally working to compliment our already potent offense that can make its own luck just fine.

This takes us back to the "what if we need an on-side kick" discussion.

In your new, modern-day NFL, if I'm behind by double digits, with 2 or 3 minutes left, I'm screwed.

I can't try an on-side kick or even kick it deep and hope for a Jacoby from the other team (sorry TK you know I'm not a hater, but we just have to add that to our lexicon, like Smithiak :) ). The on-side kick is an integral part of the game. You can't take that away from us. I have to hand the other guys the ball at the 20 and watch them burn up clock while they pretend to try and score.

G27RR
05-22-2012, 03:38 PM
(on who is going to replace Jacoby Jones as a wide receiver and returner) "Keshawn (Martin) jumps at me because he's an excellent returner and then Trindon (Holliday) has come a long way as a football player and he's going to be more competitive this time around in camp than he's ever been. So if he can show that he can help us out at wide receiver some, we know he can return, so I think his opportunity to make this team is probably the best it's been since he's been with us."
Kubiak on day 2 of OTAs

GP
05-22-2012, 03:48 PM
This takes us back to the "what if we need an on-side kick" discussion.

In your new, modern-day NFL, if I'm behind by double digits, with 2 or 3 minutes left, I'm screwed.

I can't try an on-side kick or even kick it deep and hope for a Jacoby from the other team (sorry TK you know I'm not a hater, but we just have to add that to our lexicon, like Smithiak :) ). The on-side kick is an integral part of the game. You can't take that away from us. I have to hand the other guys the ball at the 20 and watch them burn up clock while they pretend to try and score.

I'm not using this as a platform for my "remove the kickoff from the game" campaign.

Wasn't even a blip on my radar.

I'm saying this: Unless you absolutely NEED a kickoff return to try and beat the dwindling game clock, whether it's just before half or at the end of the game, then insert Danieal Manning into the kickoff returner position and let him see what he can get.

Otherwise, for the other 98% of the kickoffs we field throughout a season...just let a guy like Martin, someone who isn't going to see WR snaps much anyways, let HIM return kickoffs and punts. And that way Martin runs the risk of getting ear holed on a kickoff or punt, not Manning.

And frankly, I'd like to see us down more kicks inside our end zone rather than trying to return them. How many times do we end up starting at the 18 or the 15 or the 17??? A bunch. It's rare that we get it past the 20 when we run a kickoff out of the end zone. Most times, we get near the 20 but not even AT the 20. Or, we get it to the 25 or 30 and get flagged for holding. Why not just down the damned football and start at the 20 and nobody got hurt! That's my beef.

All things considered, Danieal Manning should not be returning kicks or punts. I know he's better at it than others, but I'm pretty much of the opinion that your 4th round WR6 needs to do SOMETHING out there, and might as well risk him and his salary and not Manning.

Rey
05-22-2012, 04:08 PM
It's rare that we get it past the 20 when we run a kickoff out of the end zone. Most times, we get near the 20 but not even AT the 20.

That's because we haven't had very good return men back there.

Put a good return man back there and we get more yards. I don't think Manning should be the full time return man, but when he got a chance to return kicks he produced yards.

TimeKiller
05-22-2012, 06:24 PM
You really blew the door down with Jeff Maehl. Geez, why didn't I think of him?

By your own admission, they have the same talent. They're both bubble players. And neither has done anything. So make sure you rip one of them apart.

CloakNNNdagger
05-22-2012, 06:50 PM
That's because we haven't had very good return men back there.

Put a good return man back there and we get more yards. I don't think Manning should be the full time return man, but when he got a chance to return kicks he produced yards.


You and others may be interested in this well-written article, which is about Devin Hester, and Returners in general. Manning is actually mentioned in this article.

http://theclassical.org/articles/devin-hester-folk-hero-0

Rey
05-22-2012, 07:28 PM
You and others may be interested in this well-written article, which is about Devin Hester, and Returners in general. Manning is actually mentioned in this article.

http://theclassical.org/articles/devin-hester-folk-hero-0

That was an extremely good read. No matter what you think of this topic I'd recommend reading that. Rep when I get the chance.

GP
05-22-2012, 10:44 PM
You really blew the door down with Jeff Maehl. Geez, why didn't I think of him?

By your own admission, they have the same talent. They're both bubble players. And neither has done anything. So make sure you rip one of them apart.

Holliday keeps getting shoved down our throats just like they did with Slaton...and you asked who could do the same job Holliday does...so I produced a name. Who actually can do more than return kicks.

I ripped Maehl too. Did u not catch the part where I said the two guys are equally sucky? I'm not naive to think that every returning Texans player is golden. We still have bubble guys every year, and some bubble guys keep getting brought back year after year.

Your question, since you hung your entire supposition upon it, was WHAT GUY DO WE HAVE WHO CAN DO WHAT HOLLIDAY DOES? Jeff Maehl is the answer. Is he better? Meh. The point is that Holliday is not going to turn into a butterfly here. But we keep shoving him back into a cocoon to see if third year is a charm.

I'd rather move those guys along and make room for new bubble guys. Kubiak has a hard on for WRs who are these David Anderson type marginally talented underdog guys. It's old.

Texn4life
05-22-2012, 11:22 PM
Holliday keeps getting shoved down our throats just like they did with Slaton...and you asked who could do the same job Holliday does...so I produced a name. Who actually can do more than return kicks.

I ripped Maehl too. Did u not catch the part where I said the two guys are equally sucky? I'm not naive to think that every returning Texans player is golden. We still have bubble guys every year, and some bubble guys keep getting brought back year after year.

Your question, since you hung your entire supposition upon it, was WHAT GUY DO WE HAVE WHO CAN DO WHAT HOLLIDAY DOES? Jeff Maehl is the answer. Is he better? Meh. The point is that Holliday is not going to turn into a butterfly here. But we keep shoving him back into a cocoon to see if third year is a charm.

I'd rather move those guys along and make room for new bubble guys. Kubiak has a hard on for WRs who are these David Anderson type marginally talented underdog guys. It's old.

I get what you're saying GP 100 percent, but I think the thing with Holliday is Kubiak wants to exhaust all possibilities before just letting him walk. While he hasn't shown anything at the WR position, the guy has world class speed. David Anderson or any other marginal receiver that we've had haven't possessed that.

Also have to take into consideration that he's only had one full year to practice at the receiver position. At LSU he was used in the backfield a lot, was on IR his 1st year here so he couldn't practice, missed all off-season because of the lockout, missed a lot of time in training camp, and finally ended up on our PS. So that's basically 5-6 months of practicing the position full time. Considering that we have a roster size of 90 going into camp and a lot of young WRs going into camp, I think giving him a full off-season to show what he can do is reasonable. If it works out, Great! If it doesn't, then we gave him an opportunity and we have other young guys fully capable. He was used in such an unorthodox way at LSU as primarily a track guy that I would think it would take him 3-4 years to learn the receiver position.

TimeKiller
05-23-2012, 08:16 AM
Holliday keeps getting shoved down our throats just like they did with Slaton...and you asked who could do the same job Holliday does...so I produced a name. Who actually can do more than return kicks.

I ripped Maehl too. Did u not catch the part where I said the two guys are equally sucky? I'm not naive to think that every returning Texans player is golden. We still have bubble guys every year, and some bubble guys keep getting brought back year after year.

Your question, since you hung your entire supposition upon it, was WHAT GUY DO WE HAVE WHO CAN DO WHAT HOLLIDAY DOES? Jeff Maehl is the answer. Is he better? Meh. The point is that Holliday is not going to turn into a butterfly here. But we keep shoving him back into a cocoon to see if third year is a charm.

I'd rather move those guys along and make room for new bubble guys. Kubiak has a hard on for WRs who are these David Anderson type marginally talented underdog guys. It's old.

Before you waste another 6,000 words on two guys who probably don't make the team unless one of them "butterflies", you should put away the picture of Jeff Maehl that causes you to have little hearts float out of your posts. I don't care how much you love Jeff Maehl, he's not going to make the cut without a wash of injuries. Yeah I asked for a name and you came up with a guy who isn't better. That's my point. You could do a lot worse for 2 guys that aren't going to make it. Can't wait for the next novel of a response.

El Tejano
05-23-2012, 08:25 AM
Kubiak on day 2 of OTAs

Dang, Kubiak is really backing him up right now.

GP
05-23-2012, 08:49 AM
Before you waste another 6,000 words on two guys who probably don't make the team unless one of them "butterflies", you should put away the picture of Jeff Maehl that causes you to have little hearts float out of your posts. I don't care how much you love Jeff Maehl, he's not going to make the cut without a wash of injuries. Yeah I asked for a name and you came up with a guy who isn't better. That's my point. You could do a lot worse for 2 guys that aren't going to make it. Can't wait for the next novel of a response.

Are you unable to read???

I am not in love with Jeff Maehl. I don't know his jersey number. I wouldn't recognize him on the street. I don't even know what college he went to.

He and Holliday are the same guy: JAG. Just Another Guy.

If anybody is getting worked up over this, it's YOU. Don't get all pissy just because you presented a challenge (Who can do what Holliday does?!?!?) and then somebody actually shows that Holliday is as JAG as the other 12 JAGs we carry every year. Man, you are not fun to hang out with when being disagreed with. Go have a Coke and a smile.

GP
05-23-2012, 08:52 AM
And you've got a suggestion for a better, cheaper 6th WR/backup kick returner?


My thing with Holliday is find a way to maximize his abilities rather than peg him into a hole he may struggle in. Such as receiving. If he can't catch, hand him the ball. Don't tell me a DL or LBer is going to beat him to the edge on a stretch play. I'm not saying he didn't need practice squad time, I'm saying play to his strengths.

It seems like you are in love with Holliday. You see this hidden potential that isn't being utilized correctly.

I don't know where you get off saying I am in love with Jeff Maehl. If anything, you're showing that you're butt hurt that others don't see the potential in Holliday that you do. In fact, I guess I tossed gasoline on your fire when I dared even mention Maehl (a bubble player) in the same breath as Holliday.

Just let it go already. It's obvious you got sand in the vadge, bro.

Rey
05-23-2012, 08:56 AM
Dang, Kubiak is really backing him up right now.

I am interested in seeing the guy personally.

From the few snaps I saw him play in pre season last year he looked like he was more comfortable.

Interesting that Kubiak is saying he's improved as a receiver.

beerlover
05-23-2012, 09:06 AM
Holiday is a specialist. I fear he is doomed if they expect him to rotate @ WR, just like Jacoby.

GP
05-23-2012, 09:22 AM
Holiday is a specialist. I fear he is doomed if they expect him to rotate @ WR, just like Jacoby.

I think Kubiak has this thing about project WR/Specialists. He's wanting to kill two roster spots with one player.

That's why I'm of the opinion that we need to at least go with a guy who actually PLAYS the position of WR. You're statement is what I have been trying to say. Thank you.

TimeKiller
05-23-2012, 10:38 AM
It seems like you are in love with Holliday. You see this hidden potential that isn't being utilized correctly.

I don't know where you get off saying I am in love with Jeff Maehl. If anything, you're showing that you're butt hurt that others don't see the potential in Holliday that you do. In fact, I guess I tossed gasoline on your fire when I dared even mention Maehl (a bubble player) in the same breath as Holliday.

Just let it go already. It's obvious you got sand in the vadge, bro.

It could be the 40 posts and half a billion words you've wasted trying to pick on me. I said the guy sucks at WR and is a backup KR who needs to do something special to make the team. I guess that's Sandy butt love but my point wasn't to find a better option to replace Holliday*, my point was picking on Holliday is weak sauce. People like you are running out of things to pick on when you've got THIS much to say about a guy who may or may not even make the practice squad.

*which you couldn't do by the way. Jeff Maehl is not a better football player than Trindon Holliday. Neither is Holliday better than Maehl, just in case I didn't say that yet.

Rey
05-23-2012, 10:42 AM
Holiday is a specialist. I fear he is doomed if they expect him to rotate @ WR, just like Jacoby.

Depends on what you mean by rotate...

In the regular rotation? Or be able to play a few snaps if needed?

ObsiWan
05-23-2012, 11:46 AM
HEY!!!
Who changed my title?!?

I never used the word "tricycle".
:foottap:

Playoffs
05-23-2012, 11:53 AM
HEY!!!
Who changed my title?!?

I never used the word "tricycle".
:foottap:Really? iPhone/Pad spellcheck, perhaps?

It's been that way from the start, hence my picture post: http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1957222&postcount=31

GP
05-23-2012, 12:27 PM
It could be the 40 posts and half a billion words you've wasted trying to pick on me. I said the guy sucks at WR and is a backup KR who needs to do something special to make the team. I guess that's Sandy butt love but my point wasn't to find a better option to replace Holliday*, my point was picking on Holliday is weak sauce. People like you are running out of things to pick on when you've got THIS much to say about a guy who may or may not even make the practice squad.

*which you couldn't do by the way. Jeff Maehl is not a better football player than Trindon Holliday. Neither is Holliday better than Maehl, just in case I didn't say that yet.

Oh, so we're "picking on Holliday" right? LOL.

I fear you've taken up an offense that's not yours to shoulder. I was wondering if you were short like him or something, or you're an LSU fan or something. The level of angst this has driven you to is puzzling.

You expressed that we need to utilize him better. We're not going to be able to utilize him better. Ever. Even Kubiak, when the guy was drafted, made references to the idea that it was a looooooooong shot for him to stick to the roster. But, in true Kubiak form, Kubiak finds ways to fall in love with his kids. So much so that he's getting a 3rd crack at the roster.

I just find it all to be very amusing, the lengths Kubiak goes to with the WRs here. He's really struggled to identify and acquire a legitimate WR threat that can even attempt to come close to what we want in a WR. The best he's done is KW who can run block and execute a curl route or slant.

ObsiWan
05-23-2012, 12:31 PM
Really? iPhone/Pad spellcheck, perhaps?

It's been that way from the start, hence my picture post: http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1957222&postcount=31

I wish this thing had a "Sent Folder". I sure don't remember putting "Tricycle" in my title when I started this thread.
I'm pretty sure I didn't. No way to prove it. And your post is a day and change after I started this thread. Oh well.... no biggie...
:cool:

scourge
05-24-2012, 08:27 AM
http://images.chron.com/photos/2010/08/04/22767561/600xPopupGallery.jpg

I always preferred this one... I'm surprised Jacoby didn't drop him.


http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/01/42/36/403362/3/628x471.jpg






And ObsiWan, does it really matter if you did or didn't? This is how I always have referred to him as well, and no, I am not the one who changed it.

TimeKiller
05-24-2012, 09:21 AM
Oh, so we're "picking on Holliday" right? LOL.

Yeah. You're taking an easy target and blowing it up. Am I missing something?

I fear you've taken up an offense that's not yours to shoulder. I was wondering if you were short like him or something, or you're an LSU fan or something. The level of angst this has driven you to is puzzling.

I can comment on whatever the hell I please. The level of negativity toward Trindon Holliday is flatly unwarranted. He was a 6th round flyer on an incredibly gifted athlete. And are you ready for this? There is not one grain of sand in my vagina.


You expressed that we need to utilize him better. We're not going to be able to utilize him better. Ever. Even Kubiak, when the guy was drafted, made references to the idea that it was a looooooooong shot for him to stick to the roster. But, in true Kubiak form, Kubiak finds ways to fall in love with his kids. So much so that he's getting a 3rd crack at the roster.

I just find it all to be very amusing, the lengths Kubiak goes to with the WRs here. He's really struggled to identify and acquire a legitimate WR threat that can even attempt to come close to what we want in a WR. The best he's done is KW who can run block and execute a curl route or slant.

You know that this little rant includes your dearly beloved Jeff Maehl? hahaha...:lol:

Have fun with the next novel about how Trindon Holliday sucks, about how Kubiak doesn't know what he's doing, about how you love Jeff Maehl with all of your heart and how I'm butthurt about sandy vajeans.