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badboy
05-07-2012, 04:46 PM
I think it is coming together & that should benefit the fans. Wade agreeing to stay was huge after the 2011 draft being so strong and his defensive scheme moving the stats so positively. Hopefully Texans have a next man up.

While I was not as pleased with the 2012 draft, they are our guys and the coaches will have a full off season to perform magic. Also, first draft where we did not draft a guaranteed starter (just signed a FA kicker to challenge Bullock) and the over all fan base did not melt down. UDFA was best class ever signed by us.

Kubiak's extention will probably be next major piece of business & that too is a mark of a solid organization.

I am not as concerned that rash of injuries would derail the season. Orgainization/roster wise, my main concern is 2013 free agents & hopefully backups now in place will allow us flexibility if certain starters (Barwin & Schaub come to mind) & supposedly roster moves freed up money to at least offer D Brown a new deal.

Players have to play & it is all about the Ws but for me the organization is starting to look like what I think Robert McNair envisioned years ago.

The Pencil Neck
05-07-2012, 04:55 PM
From the beginning, McNair said he wanted to build an organization that resembled the Steelers. I'm almost positive that's why he stuck by Smithiak when most owners would have canned him. McNair wants to have that continuity in the front office and in the head coach.

There are a lot of people on this board (I'm not one of them) who don't like Kubiak, don't think he's head coach material, thinks he makes too many gameday mistakes, etc. They don't think he should still be here. Hell, after the 2010 season, I would have fired him.

I think Kubiak and Smith have improved at their jobs every year. Their weakness is in choosing defensive coordinators and then sticking with them through thick and thin. If this organization has a fault, it's sticking with people instead of cutting loose. But that's a virtue as well.

I expect a great season this season. I'll be crushed if we backslide. And if we do, I think McNair will pull the trigger.

Rey
05-07-2012, 05:02 PM
I want to believe all of that, but in order for me to be secure I need to see it at least one mroe year.

I'm not yet comfortable enough to expect wins on Sunday. What has changed for me as a fan is that I believe we CAN (should in some instances) win on any given Sunday whereas in years before I went into games expecting it to be a rough go.

Marcus
05-07-2012, 05:06 PM
From the beginning, McNair said he wanted to build an organization that resembled the Steelers. I'm almost positive that's why he stuck by Smithiak when most owners would have canned him. McNair wants to have that continuity in the front office and in the head coach.

There are a lot of people on this board (I'm not one of them) who don't like Kubiak, don't think he's head coach material, thinks he makes too many gameday mistakes, etc. They don't think he should still be here. Hell, after the 2010 season, I would have fired him.

I think Kubiak and Smith have improved at their jobs every year. Their weakness is in choosing defensive coordinators and then sticking with them through thick and thin. If this organization has a fault, it's sticking with people instead of cutting loose. But that's a virtue as well.

I expect a great season this season. I'll be crushed if we backslide. And if we do, I think McNair will pull the trigger.

Only if McNair thinks that he's lost the team. He won't fire him in any other circumstance.

After all, like you said, he wants to resemble the Steelers.

GP
05-07-2012, 05:06 PM
AMERICA'S NEW AMERICA'S TEAM
I have been saying that I think Bob McNair is trying to slowly position the Texans as the old Cowboys of the glory years...the reliably efficient team that Texas football fans want to embrace as their favorite team. Jerry Jones has gone Looney Tunes. He's lost the plot. Bob knows that fans in Texas want a perennial winner and not a lot of change across the landscape of the roster and coaching staff.

He has almost an insurmountable task ahead of him, due to how much the Cowboys are entrenched into the minds of most Texas-based NFL fans. It's been a generational thing that dads hand down to their sons, and that's hard to supplant.

However, it seems he thinks he has his Tom Landry in Gary Kubiak. Gary is the quiet brooding HC on the sidelines...always looking at his menu and sometime staring and not saying a thing to anybody (not even to himself!). The hiring of Wade Phillips was also another move to accomplish two things--Improve the defense AND establish even more Houston Texas roots into the team culture.

THE TORTOISE IS IN THE LEAD!
Bob has his staff slow to make caustic moves. In fact, the Texans don't make brash moves very often. The past offseason of 2011 was like a comet streaking through the fan base...you could see it, but it was a blur and you don't see a comet very often do you? Bob is not going to throw money at some flashy but highly troubled CB (like Jerry did with PacMan Jones) nor will he dole out for some diva WR (like Jerry has, repeatedly with guys like T.O. and Roy Williams). Overall, Bob has been trying to pace the organization and bring it up slowly. He could have fired Kubiak after the 2010 season but he didn't. He is the anti-Jerry Jones in many regards.

WHICH CAME FIRST: THE KUBIAK OR THE WADE?
I think there is definitely going to be a dynamic involved, regarding the arrival of Wade Phillips and the subsequent FA signings and draft haul that Wade had in 2011, that will be forever discussed among football fans. Which guy is the key to the organization? Was it that Gary steadies the ship and makes everyone, even Wade Phillips, better all the way around? Or is it that Wade has never been in a culture like the Texans and HE possibly could take the HC position and be more successful than Kubiak? You cannot tell me that Wade Phillips, who says he still has aspirations of being a HC one day, does not sit and envision himself as being Houston's HC some day. He surely does. He's sitting a few doors down from that desk. In the same city that his father was HC way back when.

Can the dynamic of Kubiak and Phillips be harnessed on an annual basis? Can it be used for good or will the dynamic cause a rift one day? I think this is the key to the future here for both of those men. Personally, I sit on the fence on this one. Wade has a knack for doing well with a new team, as HC, and then slowly losing the locker room and the coaching staff over time. Gary, on the other hand, seems to only grow in stature and leadership (in the minds of his players) as time goes on.

Wade did more with one shortened FA period and one draft, all in the same year!, than any Texans head coach has ever done. Was this an anomaly or a signal that Wade--if given the latitude--can do things faster and stronger than Kubiak? My main quibble with the idea of toying with Wade as HC is the history of Wade HC'd teams, plus the fact that Gary built the current team upon his own vision of what it should be. If anything, I think I'm leaning towards Wade being a great d-coord and always having the full-fledged reins of the defense and can do whatever he wants. Once he has full power, though, I don't think he knows how to manage everything and keep both sides of the ball operating in harmony. He's maxed out his management skills, in short.

HOLDING ONTO A GOOD THING
I hope Bob McNair pays Wade Phillips so much money that Wade never wants to take a pay cut to go be a HC somewhere again. They need to make that guy feel like he IS the head coach...of the defense, which I think they already have. They need to keep him no matter what it takes until he begins to lose his players and coaches. Dick LeBeau is the type of d-coord who is forever ensconced in Pittsburgh as being The Man behind the steel curtain. Wade is every bit of that, as well, and I hope he stays here as long as it's working out for all involved. We waited 9+ years for the day when we didn't have to see a Texans defense shredded by even the most mediocre teams in the NFL.

TexanSam
05-07-2012, 06:37 PM
I want to believe all of that, but in order for me to be secure I need to see it at least one mroe year.

I'm not yet comfortable enough to expect wins on Sunday. What has changed for me as a fan is that I believe we CAN (should in some instances) win on any given Sunday whereas in years before I went into games expecting it to be a rough go.

QFT. Nine straight years of losing will do that. If we have another good season like last year though, then I'll be confident week in and week out that we're going to win.

Texecutioner
05-07-2012, 06:49 PM
QFT. Nine straight years of losing will do that. If we have another good season like last year though, then I'll be confident week in and week out that we're going to win.

I think that is fair. Show me two very good seasons where you're looking like a top contender, and maybe at that point there isn't really any major reasons for questioning this regime at that point. We'll see if they can come back strong next season. We're going to need Schaub though, or we'll just look like a great defensive team with a sub par offense like the Titans from a few years ago or some of those Ravens teams.

TimeKiller
05-07-2012, 07:49 PM
Well as much as people will always question, naysay and hate everything but it seems like that noise gets a little more quiet every year. They're learning from mistakes, in my opinion. There are a million mistakes to be made lol and they've finally done damn near every one of them. They have a guy who takes care of the books, a guy that takes care of the offense, a guy that takes care of the defense and a guy with a bajillion bucks.

I get being nervous about next season but it feels like some people are just parroting old criticisms because there isn't really much to say these days, especially when things are going smoothly. Problems always draw more wordage than good f/a moves and good drafts and letting the right ones walk, etc....


Go Texans!

Playoffs
05-07-2012, 08:07 PM
I think it is coming together...I agree. I'm hoping for stability, continued high level performance, truly getting to the place where we're a BPA drafting franchise. Fingers crossed.

badboy
05-07-2012, 08:18 PM
AMERICA'S NEW AMERICA'S TEAM
I have been saying that I think Bob McNair is trying to slowly position the Texans as the old Cowboys of the glory years...the reliably efficient team that Texas football fans want to embrace as their favorite team. Jerry Jones has gone Looney Tunes. He's lost the plot. Bob knows that fans in Texas want a perennial winner and not a lot of change across the landscape of the roster and coaching staff.

He has almost an insurmountable task ahead of him, due to how much the Cowboys are entrenched into the minds of most Texas-based NFL fans. It's been a generational thing that dads hand down to their sons, and that's hard to supplant.

However, it seems he thinks he has his Tom Landry in Gary Kubiak. Gary is the quiet brooding HC on the sidelines...always looking at his menu and sometime staring and not saying a thing to anybody (not even to himself!). The hiring of Wade Phillips was also another move to accomplish two things--Improve the defense AND establish even more Houston Texas roots into the team culture.

THE TORTOISE IS IN THE LEAD!
Bob has his staff slow to make caustic moves. In fact, the Texans don't make brash moves very often. The past offseason of 2011 was like a comet streaking through the fan base...you could see it, but it was a blur and you don't see a comet very often do you? Bob is not going to throw money at some flashy but highly troubled CB (like Jerry did with PacMan Jones) nor will he dole out for some diva WR (like Jerry has, repeatedly with guys like T.O. and Roy Williams). Overall, Bob has been trying to pace the organization and bring it up slowly. He could have fired Kubiak after the 2010 season but he didn't. He is the anti-Jerry Jones in many regards.

WHICH CAME FIRST: THE KUBIAK OR THE WADE?
I think there is definitely going to be a dynamic involved, regarding the arrival of Wade Phillips and the subsequent FA signings and draft haul that Wade had in 2011, that will be forever discussed among football fans. Which guy is the key to the organization? Was it that Gary steadies the ship and makes everyone, even Wade Phillips, better all the way around? Or is it that Wade has never been in a culture like the Texans and HE possibly could take the HC position and be more successful than Kubiak? You cannot tell me that Wade Phillips, who says he still has aspirations of being a HC one day, does not sit and envision himself as being Houston's HC some day. He surely does. He's sitting a few doors down from that desk. In the same city that his father was HC way back when.

Can the dynamic of Kubiak and Phillips be harnessed on an annual basis? Can it be used for good or will the dynamic cause a rift one day? I think this is the key to the future here for both of those men. Personally, I sit on the fence on this one. Wade has a knack for doing well with a new team, as HC, and then slowly losing the locker room and the coaching staff over time. Gary, on the other hand, seems to only grow in stature and leadership (in the minds of his players) as time goes on.

Wade did more with one shortened FA period and one draft, all in the same year!, than any Texans head coach has ever done. Was this an anomaly or a signal that Wade--if given the latitude--can do things faster and stronger than Kubiak? My main quibble with the idea of toying with Wade as HC is the history of Wade HC'd teams, plus the fact that Gary built the current team upon his own vision of what it should be. If anything, I think I'm leaning towards Wade being a great d-coord and always having the full-fledged reins of the defense and can do whatever he wants. Once he has full power, though, I don't think he knows how to manage everything and keep both sides of the ball operating in harmony. He's maxed out his management skills, in short.

HOLDING ONTO A GOOD THING
I hope Bob McNair pays Wade Phillips so much money that Wade never wants to take a pay cut to go be a HC somewhere again. They need to make that guy feel like he IS the head coach...of the defense, which I think they already have. They need to keep him no matter what it takes until he begins to lose his players and coaches. Dick LeBeau is the type of d-coord who is forever ensconced in Pittsburgh as being The Man behind the steel curtain. Wade is every bit of that, as well, and I hope he stays here as long as it's working out for all involved. We waited 9+ years for the day when we didn't have to see a Texans defense shredded by even the most mediocre teams in the NFL.I like so much of what you say. I agree that McNair wants to be Dallas of years gone by. This last season's Next Man Up reminded me so much of the old Dallas Cowboy's depth. I think comparing Landry & Kubiak needs at minimum one more very good year. I've wanted to unabashedly support Gary; dad gum it, I like the guy. 2010 infuriated me & I too would have been okay if he were fired. The HC is just so important.

Wade would be high on my list for HC [B]if[B] Texans were starting all over as new team or if McNair blew it up. As it is, I hope he is DC as long as he wants. Kubiak is the HC but unfortunately I have to say he will have the spotlight on him. I truly hope it does not do anything but make him greater.

I don't know how Bob will keep Wade but he has to. Together, they are building a dynasty that hopefully Ric SMith can keep stocked.

badboy
05-07-2012, 08:31 PM
I think that is fair. Show me two very good seasons where you're looking like a top contender, and maybe at that point there isn't really any major reasons for questioning this regime at that point. We'll see if they can come back strong next season. We're going to need Schaub though, or we'll just look like a great defensive team with a sub par offense like the Titans from a few years ago or some of those Ravens teams.Do you think it was a mistake or at least a waste for Texans to go with back ups in has been vets without putting a higher draft pick on board to train? I think we should have made a better effort in having a sound #2 QB.

It was a gamble that worked I guess as losing QB & in then having to go with a 5th got team further than any of us could have guessed. It would have been interesting to have seen what would have happened if Leinert could have remained healthy. I was very ok with his play as short as it was. Even if he had done well and led us into playoffs, he would probably gone elsewhere as a FA.

Rey
05-07-2012, 08:57 PM
Didn't we cut leinart?

G27RR
05-07-2012, 09:02 PM
Didn't we cut leinart?

Yes, he had a year left and we let him go since Yates took over as #2. Plus, it saved cap room.

badboy
05-07-2012, 10:08 PM
Yes, he had a year left and we let him go since Yates took over as #2. Plus, it saved cap room.yeah my mistake, thanks for catching. I had it in my mind that Leinert was in his 2nd year but was signed originally to a one year deal then re-signed to a two year deal.

Premier
05-08-2012, 02:22 AM
I agree. I'm hoping for stability, continued high level performance, truly getting to the place where we're a BPA drafting franchise. Fingers crossed.

not only that, a team that doesnt tie up salary cap by handing out $100 million contracts to injury prone players.. letting mario walk and the cuts/trades they made lead me to believe this franchise is starting to play smart. if the steelers are mcnairs vision, im with it..

drs23
05-08-2012, 10:21 AM
I think it is coming together & that should benefit the fans. Wade agreeing to stay was huge after the 2011 draft being so strong and his defensive scheme moving the stats so positively. Hopefully Texans have a next man up.

While I was not as pleased with the 2012 draft, they are our guys and the coaches will have a full off season to perform magic. Also, first draft where we did not draft a guaranteed starter (just signed a FA kicker to challenge Bullock) and the over all fan base did not melt down. UDFA was best class ever signed by us.

Kubiak's extention will probably be next major piece of business & that too is a mark of a solid organization.

I am not as concerned that rash of injuries would derail the season. Orgainization/roster wise, my main concern is 2013 free agents & hopefully backups now in place will allow us flexibility if certain starters (Barwin & Schaub come to mind) & supposedly roster moves freed up money to at least offer D Brown a new deal.

Players have to play & it is all about the Ws but for me the organization is starting to look like what I think Robert McNair envisioned years ago.

:goodpost:

Excellent synopsis Steve. Though I'm not as distraught regarding this year's draft class, the remainder I completely agree with and couldn't have said it better myself.

badboy
05-08-2012, 08:56 PM
not only that, a team that doesnt tie up salary cap by handing out $100 million contracts to injury prone players.. letting mario walk and the cuts/trades they made lead me to believe this franchise is starting to play smart. if the steelers are mcnairs vision, im with it..

I am concerned how much of the money allegedly saved by cutting/trading will be used to re-sign our own FA 2013 & how much gets eaten by escalating contracts

welsh texan
05-09-2012, 08:21 AM
I am concerned how much of the money allegedly saved by cutting/trading will be used to re-sign our own FA 2013 & how much gets eaten by escalating contracts

You are right to be, ask yourself how much we saved by cutting Demeco, then take a look at what the AJ restructuring this season leads to in escalation next season. I'm pretty sure our main saving only serves to cover that one contract.

Goldensilence
05-09-2012, 09:03 AM
Theres no doubt in my head Wade coming in is Finally solidified things here. I think I would have gone over the deep end if Gary pulled another friend to the DC spot. Having a guy like Wade around had to instill some real confidence, especially after he pulled the defense together in one off-season, was crucial. I think if Wade is really interested in being a HC, he's pretty close to being it here IMO.

I hope it also showed the FO that things don't have to and can't after this season, move at a glacial speed. I hope waiting on Mario is the last kind old Texans move we see. Though I do kind of see one brewing if Matt Schaub isn't back from injury on the track they continue to claim.

How the rest of this offseason goes is going to,be very telling going forward on what to expect.

dinkatoid
05-09-2012, 03:35 PM
I must say, when we first hired Kubiak, I thought it would be a great move. We knew it would take time to fix the team, and he showed progress fairly early, so I was good with it. I even agreed with keeping him into the 2010 year. However, that is when I (like a lot of you), had enough and would have fired him personally. However, Bob did not do this, and I think it may have been the right call now.

I feel like Kubiak has been growing every year - that is not the problem. The problem was that he was not growing fast enough. However, this becomes the same catch-22 a lot of us have struggled with in our careers - you need experience to get a job, but you need a job to get experience. I think that last season has shown that enough talent and help can over come some coaching mistakes, and if Gary continues to improve, he may just be worth it.

He may never be the best game day coach, but that is not all there is to coaching. He has shown that the players love him and work hard for him, which is more than a lot of coaches ever get out of their players. I was quite impressed how he handled the injuries and kept everything moving forward when a lot of coaches would have just kept ramming their heads into the wall. As long as he can keep the players dialed in and playing hard and keeps the O moving, he will be fine as the head coach with an experienced D coordinator behind him.

People seem to love Bill Cowher now, but remember, he only won 1 superbowl and I believe he coached 14 years and only won 1 Superbowl, and that was late in his run. Sometimes patience pays off, all you can do is field a good team and play hard, then hope a few breaks go your way.

As for the draft, I actually kind of like the direction we are headed. I think when you having a boring draft, things are looking up for you. When you have a bad team, everyone wants to draft a star. They need someone to step up and save the team. However, when your team is starting to really get solid, you need to fill some holes with solid players and get cheap depth. I think we are finally getting to the point where we aren't looking to hit a home run in the draft. We just want to get a solid hit and put the ball in play. We know most of the picks will be solid depth or rotational players, and all have talent. If our coaches do their jobs, these guys will grow and some of them will turn into studs.

A perfect example of this is what the steelers do. How many times have people been confused about some strange linebacker they drafted. I believe their starting 4 last year had 1 first rounder, and a bunch of late round guys. The steelers know if they get a solid player, they can coach them up and fit the system right so these players can excel. This is one thing I will give Kubiak/Wade credit for - they seem very good about finding a way to hide a players weakness and play towards their strength.

Bottom line, I love the direction the team is headed, even if we took the bumpy road to get here. Hopefully we continue to do so.

badboy
05-09-2012, 04:14 PM
dinkatoid what is your thoughts on Smith not drafting ILB to eventually replace Demeco Ryans? Is Brady James going to be replaced at end of his one year deal by current roster player, 2013 draft pick, another cheap vet cast off or just maybe will he re-sign?

Vinny
05-09-2012, 04:14 PM
beat the Bengals in the playoffs and we've arrived. excellent

Double Barrel
05-09-2012, 04:43 PM
However, it seems he thinks he has his Tom Landry in Gary Kubiak.

I have no idea if this is true or not.

But honestly, I really hope that McNair does not put Kubiak on the same level as Tom Landry. One was a career backup QB who experienced great success as a coach for two Hall of Fame QBs, and the other a football genius that changed the game on fundamental levels and is widely considered to be one of the greatest football coaches in history along with Vince Lombardi.

People seem to love Bill Cowher now, but remember, he only won 1 superbowl and I believe he coached 14 years and only won 1 Superbowl, and that was late in his run.

Cowher's record as a head coach is 149–90–1 (161–99–1 including playoff games).

Through the Super Bowl, Cowher's team had compiled a record of 108–1–1 in games in which they built a lead of at least eleven points.

In 1995, at age 38, he became the youngest coach to lead his team to a Super Bowl. Cowher is only the second coach in NFL history to lead his team to the playoffs in each of his first six seasons as head coach, joining Pro Football Hall of Fame member Paul Brown.

In Cowher’s 15 seasons, the Steelers captured eight division titles, earned ten postseason playoff berths, played in 21 playoff games, advanced to six AFC Championship games and made two Super Bowl appearances. He is one of only six coaches in NFL history to claim at least seven division titles.

Meanwhile, Gary Kubiak went the playoffs in his 6th year as a head coach.

beat the Bengals in the playoffs and we've arrived. excellent

And I got the souvenir cup! :dancer:

Thorn
05-09-2012, 05:34 PM
Well, if nothing else, when the conversation starts up about playoff teams the Texans will be included in anyones conversation. That's an improvement. Took a long time to get there though.

Goldensilence
05-09-2012, 06:16 PM
dinkatoid what is your thoughts on Smith not drafting ILB to eventually replace Demeco Ryans? Is Brady James going to be replaced at end of his one year deal by current roster player, 2013 draft pick, another cheap vet cast off or just maybe will he re-sign?

I know not directed at me, but I would think its a one year rental. If he performs well, he might get a small extension, like another year or two. I don't think atm we have anyone that's going to replace him, but I'd look for a FA pick up after cuts or likely, 2013 draft. That's just me.

Far as even mentioning Kubiak in comparison to Landry...:spit:

thunderkyss
05-09-2012, 06:26 PM
I think Kubiak and Smith have improved at their jobs every year. Their weakness is in choosing defensive coordinators and then sticking with them through thick and thin. If this organization has a fault, it's sticking with people instead of cutting loose. But that's a virtue as well.


We make it sound like it should be easy to get a competent defensive coordinator. Greg Williams is available? Sign him up.. But, we know the man was after some serious jack after Washington over-paid him & over-inflated his ego. Then Washington's defense wasn't all that. & after we found out about the Bounty program, maybe Smithiak new before hand that he wasn't a fit.

As much as we don't like to think this is an expansion team, a failed one at that, you have to take into account that maybe, nobody wants to come here. Yeah, I know Cowher was lick'n his chops, just dying to come to Houston.. & I've got a bridge I could sell you if you're interested.

I'm not a Smithiak lover (at the moment), but you listen to some of these Armchair owners & you wonder why they aren't running multi-million dollar organizations. Then these are the same guys who'll throw out the, "That only works in Madden" line.

I am, however, loving me some Bob McNair. Right now, this city needs people like Kubiak & Wade. The city of Houston mean more to them than "winning" they have pride & ownership in what they're doing, trying to build something the city of Houston can be proud of.

Winning is a by-product.

GP
05-09-2012, 06:45 PM
I have no idea if this is true or not.

But honestly, I really hope that McNair does not put Kubiak on the same level as Tom Landry. One was a career backup QB who experienced great success as a coach for two Hall of Fame QBs, and the other a football genius that changed the game on fundamental levels and is widely considered to be one of the greatest football coaches in history along with Vince Lombardi.

Oh I don't think anybody is fooling themselves into a 100% comparison of the two.

I just meant that Kubiak fits the Texans persona like Landry did the Cowboys. The man and the logo get intertwined with one another.

McNair is a man of image. Kubiak and the players we have, they all fit an image. To the point that were just now comfortable taking on some UDFA guys who have some personal baggage. It signals they all think they're at a point where they can break with their cultural norms a bit. The hyperactivity of our off-season last year is another product of that. The ability to flat-out CUT a guy like Winston is another example. Trading a HUGE fan favorite like DeMeco Ryans. There was a time when none of these things were done...we were begging people like Ahman Green to come play for us.

The team is doing things it normally doesn't do, and I think it's because McNair feels that everyone is buying into Gary Ball. Prior to 2011, Gary Ball was on the ropes. 2011 put Gary Ball into the center of the ring again. You watched the Tom Landry special on NFLN where Landry broke down and cried in front of his players after they underachieved...the players really didn't even like him that much (cold, distant, perfectionist, scathing, etc.) but they rallied around him in that locker room and the rest is history. Granted, I think the Cowboys at that time were loads more further into the playoffs and maybe even had just lost a SB, but still. Same picture: And with Gary, the players genuinely LOVE the guy as their HC. So he's got Landry beat on that front. LOL.

And in that sense, McNair thinks he's got his own long-term HC in Kubiak. I use the Landry example because Cowboys football was so genuinely iconic from the 60s to the early 80s. It lost its luster and then came Jerry Jones who put some fake shine on the star there...but let's face it, McNair would LOVE to create the Texans in such a way that it drew nostalgic Cowboys fans away from the Cowboys and unto the Texans. Sort of like gene replacement surgery.

Goldensilence
05-09-2012, 07:03 PM
We make it sound like it should be easy to get a competent defensive coordinator. Greg Williams is available? Sign him up.. But, we know the man was after some serious jack after Washington over-paid him & over-inflated his ego. Then Washington's defense wasn't all that. & after we found out about the Bounty program, maybe Smithiak new before hand that he wasn't a fit.

As much as we don't like to think this is an expansion team, a failed one at that, you have to take into account that maybe, nobody wants to come here. Yeah, I know Cowher was lick'n his chops, just dying to come to Houston.. & I've got a bridge I could sell you if you're interested.

I'm not a Smithiak lover (at the moment), but you listen to some of these Armchair owners & you wonder why they aren't running multi-million dollar organizations. Then these are the same guys who'll throw out the, "That only works in Madden" line.

I am, however, loving me some Bob McNair. Right now, this city needs people like Kubiak & Wade. The city of Houston mean more to them than "winning" they have pride & ownership in what they're doing, trying to build something the city of Houston can be proud of.

Winning is a by-product.

Competent would have been a major upgrade over Dick Smith and Frank Bush.

Look, that's really what most of us were asking for with Gary after Smith. Get a DC with a track record of success or if you're going to go after a young assistant coach at least pick one from a team that has a track record of fielding good defenses.

I think more than anything what Wade did last year, was prove without a doubt that it doesn't take 3-4 years to get things headed in the right direction and make moves at a glacial pace. Manning and J- Jo came here not just because they got paid, but likely because of the appeal of working under/with a defensive coordinator who has a damn good track record. I do think that rolling out the red carpet and getting Wade Phillips to come here was the game changer this organization needed.

Insideop
05-09-2012, 07:21 PM
Oh I don't think anybody is fooling themselves into a 100% comparison of the two.

I just meant that Kubiak fits the Texans persona like Landry did the Cowboys. The man and the logo get intertwined with one another.

McNair is a man of image. Kubiak and the players we have, they all fit an image. To the point that were just now comfortable taking on some UDFA guys who have some personal baggage. It signals they all think they're at a point where they can break with their cultural norms a bit. The hyperactivity of our off-season last year is another product of that. The ability to flat-out CUT a guy like Winston is another example. Trading a HUGE fan favorite like DeMeco Ryans. There was a time when none of these things were done...we were begging people like Ahman Green to come play for us.

The team is doing things it normally doesn't do, and I think it's because McNair feels that everyone is buying into Gary Ball. Prior to 2011, Gary Ball was on the ropes. 2011 put Gary Ball into the center of the ring again. You watched the Tom Landry special on NFLN where Landry broke down and cried in front of his players after they underachieved...the players really didn't even like him that much (cold, distant, perfectionist, scathing, etc.) but they rallied around him in that locker room and the rest is history. Granted, I think the Cowboys at that time were loads more further into the playoffs and maybe even had just lost a SB, but still. Same picture: And with Gary, the players genuinely LOVE the guy as their HC. So he's got Landry beat on that front. LOL.

And in that sense, McNair thinks he's got his own long-term HC in Kubiak. I use the Landry example because Cowboys football was so genuinely iconic from the 60s to the early 80s. It lost its luster and then came Jerry Jones who put some fake shine on the star there...but let's face it, McNair would LOVE to create the Texans in such a way that it drew nostalgic Cowboys fans away from the Cowboys and unto the Texans. Sort of like gene replacement surgery.


The only organization that I've heard McNair say publicly that he would like to model his organization after is the Steeler organization. I think he wants the stability, tough image, and respect that they have built through the years. I think he knows his mistakes (Casserly/Capers) and believes he has the "ship" righted with Smith/Kubes. Is he right? I don't know, but I think he plans on sticking with Smith and Kubes for awhile to try and build that stability and respect that the Steelers organization has. As for the tough image, he'll leave that to Wade and the :d: !!!!

thunderkyss
05-09-2012, 08:12 PM
Cowher's record as a head coach is 149–90–1 (161–99–1 including playoff games).

Through the Super Bowl, Cowher's team had compiled a record of 108–1–1 in games in which they built a lead of at least eleven points.

In 1995, at age 38, he became the youngest coach to lead his team to a Super Bowl. Cowher is only the second coach in NFL history to lead his team to the playoffs in each of his first six seasons as head coach, joining Pro Football Hall of Fame member Paul Brown.

In Cowher’s 15 seasons, the Steelers captured eight division titles, earned ten postseason playoff berths, played in 21 playoff games, advanced to six AFC Championship games and made two Super Bowl appearances. He is one of only six coaches in NFL history to claim at least seven division titles.

Meanwhile, Gary Kubiak went the playoffs in his 6th year as a head coach.




Ouch, damn good post.

But if their situations were reversed, do you think Cowher would have done much better than Kubes, taking over a failed expansion project? How much worse would Kubiak done taking over a championship club with a championship organization behind it?

thunderkyss
05-09-2012, 08:29 PM
I think more than anything what Wade did last year, was prove without a doubt that it doesn't take 3-4 years to get things headed in the right direction and make moves at a glacial pace.

Still a little oversimplifying. Take Mario, Demeco (even though they didn't play too much), Connor, Antonio, Cushing, even McCain, & Nolan out of the picture & we probably don't go from 30 to 2. We had some pretty crappy players when Kubiak got here & that's just the starters. We had crappy coaches (most of them he brought with him) crappy scouts, front office execs, & medical staff.

Just about every aspect of this team was a joke when he got here.


Don't take this as me saying that 6 years is right, or should be acceptable, I'm just saying getting Wade as DC was not the single biggest reason for success that everyone tries to make it out to be. He had a defense in Dallas that was just as talented & they were ranked 23rd in 2010, not looking much better in 2011.


Manning and J- Jo came here not just because they got paid, but likely because of the appeal of working under/with a defensive coordinator who has a damn good track record. I do think that rolling out the red carpet and getting Wade Phillips to come here was the game changer this organization needed.

I'm happy that Wade is here. But I don't know what kind of red carpet we rolled out for him. Making some back-room deal with his daddy is probably what got him here.

dinkatoid
05-10-2012, 09:19 AM
dinkatoid what is your thoughts on Smith not drafting ILB to eventually replace Demeco Ryans? Is Brady James going to be replaced at end of his one year deal by current roster player, 2013 draft pick, another cheap vet cast off or just maybe will he re-sign?

I think that will be determined by how he plays. I would assume that Smith now feels we have 3 solid OLBs to rotate, and Cush in the middle. It does not make much sense to pay a high price for a guy who will basically be a 2 down thumper for us. James knew the system and I assume came fairly cheap (Rotoworld says 890k).

If James comes in and shows he has more left in the tank than they thought, then I am sure they would consider bringing him back. However, I assume the main reason he is here is to push Sharpton, as Smith (rightfully so) does not like just handing jobs to people.

From what I remember hearing, he was also a big locker room leader for the Cowboys, so that might have something to do with it. If he plays well enough but nothing great, which I think is how this will play out, then I figure he is basically a one year rental/veteran leadership.

I also assume that due to James, an ILB was not near the top of their draft list. If they had one lying around they liked when it was their turn, I am sure he would have been taken, but they had others rated higher, so they drafted them. My guess is that we will see a mid round ILB being drafted next year, and the competition will be between the new guy and Sharpton.

Goldensilence
05-10-2012, 10:13 AM
Still a little oversimplifying. Take Mario, Demeco (even though they didn't play too much), Connor, Antonio, Cushing, even McCain, & Nolan out of the picture & we probably don't go from 30 to 2. We had some pretty crappy players when Kubiak got here & that's just the starters. We had crappy coaches (most of them he brought with him) crappy scouts, front office execs, & medical staff.

Just about every aspect of this team was a joke when he got here.


Don't take this as me saying that 6 years is right, or should be acceptable, I'm just saying getting Wade as DC was not the single biggest reason for success that everyone tries to make it out to be. He had a defense in Dallas that was just as talented & they were ranked 23rd in 2010, not looking much better in 2011.

Sorry, I am doing a bit of a double take on your point here. In the first paragraph you're going back to when Kubiak first got here. Then 6 years later we finally get into the playoffs...but then again you're not necessarily ok with the glacial pace that this staff has moved and then bumbled and stumbled its way into a formula that suddenly just works?

Call me skeptical I just find it hard to believe that this is case.

I really believe had there CBA not expired and we had the lockout Kubiak would have been gone last year's 6-10 meltdown.

Far as his defenses in Dallas go, I can't really say one way or another what those struggles were due to. Perhaps one of the cowboys fans can give some insight. If I had to guess though, I don't think Garrett is that great of an offensive play caller and the offense stalled out at times leaving the defense in bad positions at times.




I'm happy that Wade is here. But I don't know what kind of red carpet we rolled out for him. Making some back-room deal with his daddy is probably what got him here.

I am pretty sure he's the highest, if not one of, the high paid coordinators. Looked like he pretty much got carte blanche on last year's draft to me and finally got Bob McNair to make a move in FA last year.

thunderkyss
05-10-2012, 11:47 AM
Sorry, I am doing a bit of a double take on your point here. In the first paragraph you're going back to when Kubiak first got here. Then 6 years later we finally get into the playoffs...but then again you're not necessarily ok with the glacial pace that this staff has moved and then bumbled and stumbled its way into a formula that suddenly just works?

2007 we thought we would have at least had a winning season if not for Aj missing 7 games.

2008 if only Matt would stay healthy.

2009, I remember many a folk here with the idea we would have had made the play-offs if we only had a running game. The defense struggled the first 4 weeks of the season, but after that, Frank Bush & the boys looked every bit as formidable as the group Wade put together.

This team we saw in 2011 did not appear out of thin air, it's been a work in progress, each year building on the year before.


Call me skeptical I just find it hard to believe that this is case.

I really believe had there CBA not expired and we had the lockout Kubiak would have been gone last year's 6-10 meltdown.

I think he would have been gone after the 2010 season as well, but I don't understand you're point here.


Looked like he pretty much got carte blanche on last year's draft to me and finally got Bob McNair to make a move in FA last year.

I really don't know much about that. To me, it looked like the draft went exactly the way it had gone in the past.


2011 2010 2009 2008 2007 2006
JJWatt KJ Cushing Brown Okoye Mario
Reed Tate Barwin Slaton Jacoby Demeco
Harris Mitchelle Caldwell Adibi Bennette Spencer
Carmichael Sharpton Quin Okam Harrison Winston
Keo Graham Hill Barber Frye OD



Defensive heavy emphasis on pass rush. More defensive heavy than the others, eh.. a little. But we did have the worst pass defense in the history of the NFL.

I also don't think FA was handled any differently. We spent major dollars on Weaver, Antonio Smith, & I would count Franchising Dunta. So I don't think it was a money issue. We went after Bodden in 2010, but couldn't get'r done.

We also failed to get Nnamdi signed, Jjo was the second option & I don't know if there was such a quality second option in 2010, I do know we didn't stop trying to get a veteran FA even after the season started & landed J.Allen that season.

So I guess it's really all in how you look at it. If you think Smithiak is the biggest FUbar since Bud Adams, then yeah.... Wade gets all the credit. If you think Smithiak are competent but are learning on the job, then you'll see this thing was built brick by brick over a very long time. Wade was just the newest brick.

If you think about it, the only difference between the 2011 defense & the 2010 defense is that they never stopped going after the QB in 2011. Try to remember all the times you cursed the field (or TV depending on where you were) wondering why we stopped blitzing.... wondering why Pollard was covering slot receivers & tight-ends, when he didn't do that in 2009. Why were we playing prevent defense with a 3 point lead.

I honestly think Frank Bush was scared to lose his job when he realized he had to start a rookie & two second year corners & he over compensated with a heavy dose of zone coverage. Had he allowed them to play the same aggressive, pressure defense that got us back into games for 4 Qtrs, it would have been a different story all together. 2009, he proved (to me anyway) that he is at least competent enough to do the job. 2010, he proved (to me) that he didn't have the stones for it.

Wade is like a honeybadger. He don't give a ****. He's going after the QB.

welsh texan
05-10-2012, 12:07 PM
tk, I agree with your post above, when you say about the quality 2nd option at CB in FA 2010, Dunta and Bodden were the top rated in that class at the position, both got overpaid, Bodden got injured then cut mid-season after coming back from it. Dunta seems to be playing okay but nothing special from what I hear in Atlanta.

Long run, probably a good thing that we waited, and perhaps we'll come to review a number of their decisions over the long, slow 5 year build as being good long run decisions.

How about all the years being regarded as 'finesse chokers'?

Maybe we will look back in 2 or 3 years having done well in the playoffs for say 4 straight seasons and realise that the coaching style they used instilled a good way of working within the franchise, despite not having the talent to pull it off, and was part of the reason why it eventually did come together.

The jury is very much still out for me, they have to sustain last seasons success, but I can see now how a lot of those WTF? decisions made could be leading on to better things.

badboy
05-10-2012, 12:19 PM
tk, I agree with your post above, when you say about the quality 2nd option at CB in FA 2010, Dunta and Bodden were the top rated in that class at the position, both got overpaid, Bodden got injured then cut mid-season after coming back from it. Dunta seems to be playing okay but nothing special from what I hear in Atlanta.

Long run, probably a good thing that we waited, and perhaps we'll come to review a number of their decisions over the long, slow 5 year build as being good long run decisions.

How about all the years being regarded as 'finesse chokers'?

Maybe we will look back in 2 or 3 years having done well in the playoffs for say 4 straight seasons and realise that the coaching style they used instilled a good way of working within the franchise, despite not having the talent to pull it off, and was part of the reason why it eventually did come together.

The jury is very much still out for me, they have to sustain last seasons success, but I can see now how a lot of those WTF? decisions made could be leading on to better things.Winning does buy time with fans and usually smooth the bumps. A concern I have is many of us assume things like if Andre & Matt had remained healthy we would have been in Super Bowl. Butler will be a very good RT because he did pretty good in like 4 games relieving Brown. Myers will continue to play every game. Matt if healthy will continue to pass for 4,000 yds and not lose a bit due to age. We don't have much choice but I remain concerned and cautiously optimistic.

Goldensilence
05-10-2012, 12:22 PM
2007 we thought we would have at least had a winning season if not for Aj missing 7 games.

2008 if only Matt would stay healthy.

2009, I remember many a folk here with the idea we would have had made the play-offs if we only had a running game. The defense struggled the first 4 weeks of the season, but after that, Frank Bush & the boys looked every bit as formidable as the group Wade put together.

This team we saw in 2011 did not appear out of thin air, it's been a work in progress, each year building on the year before.

Looks to me like a lot of "if only's" and nothing really substantial in your yearly account list. I think every team can make that list that doesn't make the playoffs. Problem is i nthe NFL well if this had gone right we COULD'VE made the playoff just doesn't count. It does for revisionists.

The defense under Smith's tenure looked lost under his "read and react defense" and all too often looked just plain lost and like he had no clue on how to manage personnel.

The defense under Bush, if I had to sum it up in one word, I'd use the one Frank himself used all too often and all too often it failed to be that way: "aggressive". All too often as well, by the time they "got" whatever Frank was doing it was well into the season and after it was too late to make a real playoff run.

I wouldn't even say the looked formidable as what Wade put on the field, they just looked better.

I will give the possibility that Kubiak was pulling the strings behind thins because after bad defensive games and when it came time to turn it up midway through the season after a big losing streak they would "get more aggressive" but only generally after the most realistic chance of making the playoffs is done.

The biggest difference between a Wade Smith defense and the other two, is they always seemed to be guessing or hoping that some aspect of their "scheme" would work or hoped and guessed X player would fit. With Wade he knows what to look for and what player will fit in his scheme.


I think he would have been gone after the 2010 season as well, but I don't understand you're point here.

My point is if we're going with the brick building theory of things, if NFL teams weren't bracing for a lockout. Kubiak's gone, though I think it's likely Smith would've stayed on.


I really don't know much about that. To me, it looked like the draft went exactly the way it had gone in the past.


2011 2010 2009 2008 2007 2006
JJWatt KJ Cushing Brown Okoye Mario
Reed Tate Barwin Slaton Jacoby Demeco
Harris Mitchelle Caldwell Adibi Bennette Spencer
Carmichael Sharpton Quin Okam Harrison Winston
Keo Graham Hill Barber Frye OD



Defensive heavy emphasis on pass rush. More defensive heavy than the others, eh.. a little. But we did have the worst pass defense in the history of the NFL.

I also don't think FA was handled any differently. We spent major dollars on Weaver, Antonio Smith, & I would count Franchising Dunta. So I don't think it was a money issue. We went after Bodden in 2010, but couldn't get'r done.

Weaver got grossly overpaid and grossly underperformed. Antonio Smith got a big contract, we're lucky for the most part he's played up to it. Sorry, I don't count franchising as making a FA move. Revising again. Failing to sign a mediocre corner in a bad FA market doesn't count either. But, hey at least that was another moral victory in FA?

We also failed to get Nnamdi signed, Jjo was the second option & I don't know if there was such a quality second option in 2010, I do know we didn't stop trying to get a veteran FA even after the season started & landed J.Allen that season.

I guess I am in the opinion that the FO thought about Nnmadi then decided to more aggressively pursue J-Jo. Either way do you think IF Frank Bush was still the coordinator Him or Manning would've come here?

So I guess it's really all in how you look at it. If you think Smithiak is the biggest FUbar since Bud Adams, then yeah.... Wade gets all the credit. If you think Smithiak are competent but are learning on the job, then you'll see this thing was built brick by brick over a very long time. Wade was just the newest brick.

I've never stated that Rick and Gary have been FUBAR'd. What I am saying is suddenly, just suddenly it all falls into place when Wade arrives and the defense moves from 30th overall to 2nd... that you can just call it coincidence and the stars aligning?

I'm saying I don't believe Wade's place in this turnaround and playoff appearance is overstated. I think it should be pretty clear without him, this defense isn't likely to make that kind of lightspeed jump it did. Make no mistake about it, without the defense playing lights out when it did, this team doesn't make the playoffs and Gary's gone.

If you think about it, the only difference between the 2011 defense & the 2010 defense is that they never stopped going after the QB in 2011. Try to remember all the times you cursed the field (or TV depending on where you were) wondering why we stopped blitzing.... wondering why Pollard was covering slot receivers & tight-ends, when he didn't do that in 2009. Why were we playing prevent defense with a 3 point lead.

Occam's Razor: maybe Frank Bush just wasn't a good defensive coordinator?

I honestly think Frank Bush was scared to lose his job when he realized he had to start a rookie & two second year corners & he over compensated with a heavy dose of zone coverage. Had he allowed them to play the same aggressive, pressure defense that got us back into games for 4 Qtrs, it would have been a different story all together. 2009, he proved (to me anyway) that he is at least competent enough to do the job. 2010, he proved (to me) that he didn't have the stones for it.

Wade is like a honeybadger. He don't give a ****. He's going after the QB.

I guess we'll never totally know whose call it was to go young at CB. I would guess he at least had some say in that personnel decision. Is that on Gary or Frank....either way we both know Frank got axed for it.

Nothing convinced me he was competent enough to do the job or we would've had to deal with yet another guy "learning on the job". Sure his defenses looked competent...late in the season when realistic playoff chances were all but dead.


:fingergun:

badboy
05-10-2012, 12:35 PM
GS not quibbling but it is downtime so let's discuss; I think FO did more than think on Nnamdi as days went by. Joseph was finally made an offer and IIRC signed immediately. IMO ww were in the mix for Asomougha up until Smith thought he was being strung along.

TexanSam
05-10-2012, 12:53 PM
I think Gary Kubiak is basically Jeff Fisher. Good head coach at times, average at other times. Hell, look at Fisher's first 6 season's. Almost eerily similar to Kubes.

The Pencil Neck
05-10-2012, 12:54 PM
GS not quibbling but it is downtime so let's discuss; I think FO did more than think on Nnamdi as days went by. Joseph was finally made an offer and IIRC signed immediately. IMO ww were in the mix for Asomougha up until Smith thought he was being strung along.

That's the impression I got. If I recall the reports at the time, we put more money on the table than any other team. And when Nnamdi hesitated too long, the FO changed directions and went after JJo instead.

I thought it was a great move.

thunderkyss
05-10-2012, 01:29 PM
Looks to me like a lot of "if only's" and nothing really substantial in your yearly account list. I think every team can make that list that doesn't make the playoffs. Problem is i nthe NFL well if this had gone right we COULD'VE made the playoff just doesn't count. It does for revisionists.

Who's revising? I'm not saying those were good teams or that they did anything other than what they did. All I'm saying, is that those teams were the beginnings of the team we saw in 2011. It was more of an evolutionary thing, not something totally new that started with Wade.

The defense under Smith's tenure looked lost under his "read and react defense" and all too often looked just plain lost and like he had no clue on how to manage personnel.

He managed them just fine in 2009. I'm not saying he belongs in the H.O.F. of defensive coordinators, but if nothing else, 2009 proves he was at least competent. & we played much better offenses in 2009 than we played in 2011, including the SuperBowl appearing Kurt Warner led Cardinals & a Peyton Manning led Colts (x2).

How do you go from competent one year to no clue the next? That just doesn't make sense.

The defense under Bush, if I had to sum it up in one word, I'd use the one Frank himself used all too often and all too often it failed to be that way: "aggressive". All too often as well, by the time they "got" whatever Frank was doing it was well into the season and after it was too late to make a real playoff run.

They flipped a switch in 2009 after 4 games. It wasn't a case of too little too late. 2010, Frank never adjusted to playing "aggresive" for much of any game. Didn't make sense to me. We got back into games because the defense would play aggressive for small spurts.

I wouldn't even say the looked formidable as what Wade put on the field, they just looked better.

Are you saying this for both the 2009 & the 2010 team, or just the 2010 team? I completely agree if the latter.

The biggest difference between a Wade Smith defense and the other two, is they always seemed to be guessing or hoping that some aspect of their "scheme" would work or hoped and guessed X player would fit. With Wade he knows what to look for and what player will fit in his scheme.

Again, in 2009, Frank Bush knew... in 2010, he didn't? I don't get it.

Richard Smith, I agree. He was clueless.

My point is if we're going with the brick building theory of things, if NFL teams weren't bracing for a lockout. Kubiak's gone, though I think it's likely Smith would've stayed on.

irrelevant. Whether Kubiak left or not, the team that played the 2010 season would have been mostly his guys. It's rare to turn a roster over completely in one offseason. We still would have been playing with Kubiak's team & whatever coach would have been here would have been better off than what Kubiak was when he got here. For one, he'd have at least a handful of quality starters on both sides of the ball. Kubiak got here, & there was a WR, LG/LT, & a CB. I might be missing one or two starters from the 2006 team... but only one or two.

He also would have had a competent GM (though I think he's asleep at the wheel a little too often, he's better than the guy Kubiak started with).

He'd also have an owner that actually knows something about the business. McNair was clueless about how things work in the NFL & you can see a big change in how he goes about his business now than 2006. Always a business man, I know that. But he didn't know jack about the NFL.

Weaver got grossly overpaid and grossly underperformed. Antonio Smith got a big contract, we're lucky for the most part he's played up to it. Sorry, I don't count franchising as making a FA move. Revising again. Failing to sign a mediocre corner in a bad FA market doesn't count either. But, hey at least that was another moral victory in FA?

Antonio is overpaid. Not grossly, not as bad as Weaver was. But he's overpaid.

& we're going to have to define "revising" because I don't know what you mean. I listed the guys we drafted. Not could have drafted, not should have drafted.... but the guys we drafted & remarked on the similarities of them & what I felt was a common theme.

Two points about Dunta, one I'm talking about the money we gave him to play one year. If you're going to call McNair cheap, you have to look at the money he's spending. Aj, Schaub, Dunta.... & all the bad FA moves we made in the past should (but I don't know why it doesn't) squash any "cheap" argument.

The other, as someone else mentioned, Dunta was the best Corner available in 2009.... we franchised him. He was second to Bodden in 2010, we struck out on Bodden & didn't see the value of signing Dunta for another $9M...... what did you expect them to do? **** a Starting Cornerback? If only it were that easy.


I guess I am in the opinion that the FO thought about Nnmadi then decided to more aggressively pursue J-Jo. Either way do you think IF Frank Bush was still the coordinator Him or Manning would've come here?

Yes.

If I remember right, we were the highest bidder for Manning & Jjo... I don't know if anyone else was interested in Jjo, his own team didn't make him an offer. You seem to be thinking of the 2011 Jjo, not the solid-but-nothing-special 2010 & before Jjo.

Same for Manning, he was probably thought of as damaged goods. I don't know how many people were trying to sign him, but I know Chicago wasn't.

These guys were 2nd tier FAs who we overpaid for, but they played up to their contracts. These are the same type of guys we've gotten in FA before, Wade Smith, Sean Cody, Antonio Smith. Young with potential.


I've never stated that Rick and Gary have been FUBAR'd. What I am saying is suddenly, just suddenly it all falls into place when Wade arrives and the defense moves from 30th overall to 2nd... that you can just call it coincidence and the stars aligning?

& I just don't think it's "all of a sudden" they've been a missing piece away for a long time. I think the biggest missing piece, is that the average of the group, the core are the veterans that we never had. The keep it together, keep chopping guys that hold everything together & lead on the field. Cushing, Antonio, Quin, Myers, Brown, Winston, Aj....

Yes, I think Jjo & Manning brought some needed veteran leadership. I also think Arian Foster, though he's young brought some of that fiery on the field stuff that Demeco brought with him back in 2006... but back then, he was alone in that regard. We have more on the field leaders than we ever had.

I had been thinking along those lines for a while. In the past, we were making up ways to lose games. That happens when you've got a team of guys who just aren't any good (which I never thought) or when you've got a bunch of young guys out there with no or little leadership.

I'm saying I don't believe Wade's place in this turnaround and playoff appearance is overstated. I think it should be pretty clear without him, this defense isn't likely to make that kind of lightspeed jump it did. Make no mistake about it, without the defense playing lights out when it did, this team doesn't make the playoffs and Gary's gone.

All other things being equal, yes, you're right, I agree with you & we should probably stop this discussion right here (but you know I won't).

If Frank Bush was here & had the same draft & the same attrition throughout the year, the Titans would have one another game (against us) & won the division with a 10-6 record. We most likely wouldn't have won 6 games.

So yeah, you're right.

At the same time, all I'm saying is had we gone with someone other than Kubiak in 2006, I'm not so sure we would be any better off. It took him a long time, I'm not disagreeing there. But I'd hate to have gone on the coaching carousel the Rams, Bills, Lions, & 49ers have gone on.

Yeah, the 9ers seem to have got it together now, but it took the organization 10 years (I think)... & 2012 will tell us if they've actually got something other than fools gold (same as us).


Occam's Razor: maybe Frank Bush just wasn't a good defensive coordinator?

Explain 2009.

I guess we'll never totally know whose call it was to go young at CB. I would guess he at least had some say in that personnel decision. Is that on Gary or Frank....either way we both know Frank got axed for it.

I think the decision pretty much made itself. We weren't going to resign Dunta, I'm good with that decision & will support it 6 ways to Sunday. We didn't resign Reeves.... he & Bennett & Moulden couldn't get on the field anyway... just because they're older doesn't make them better. It's arguable, but I'm not going to give them a hard time about it.

The bigger mistake I think was not being aggresive, trying to compensate for that youth. But being aggressive is what masked Pollard's inability to cover in 2009. It would have helped us (I think) more than hurt us.



Nothing convinced me he was competent enough to do the job or we would've had to deal with yet another guy "learning on the job". Sure his defenses looked competent...late in the season when realistic playoff chances were all but dead.

:fingergun:

Now I think you are the one revising history. In 2009, it wasn't that the defense turned it on too late. They played lights out from week 5 through week 17. We didn't have a running game, couldn't pick up 3rd & short, couldn't punch it into the endzone.... Our failure in 2009 had less to do with the defense than it did with our inability to pick up a yard.

Goldensilence
05-10-2012, 02:26 PM
Who's revising? I'm not saying those were good teams or that they did anything other than what they did. All I'm saying, is that those teams were the beginnings of the team we saw in 2011. It was more of an evolutionary thing, not something totally new that started with Wade.

I never said it was something newly created. Umm of course there was a team already in place, but it's looking at things it's like a light switch got turned on, instead of fumbling around with a flashlight that goes on and off. To me the team was that much night and day.[/B]

He managed them just fine in 2009. I'm not saying he belongs in the H.O.F. of defensive coordinators, but if nothing else, 2009 proves he was at least competent. & we played much better offenses in 2009 than we played in 2011, including the SuperBowl appearing Kurt Warner led Cardinals & a Peyton Manning led Colts (x2).

How do you go from competent one year to no clue the next? That just doesn't make sense.

If I had to point to one thing. The choice to go so young at DB.

They flipped a switch in 2009 after 4 games. It wasn't a case of too little too late. 2010, Frank never adjusted to playing "aggresive" for much of any game. Didn't make sense to me. We got back into games because the defense would play aggressive for small spurts.

God, I'm looking over the 2009 season offensively and remembering Chris Brown all over. Statistically, you're right the defense was middle of the road for the most past which is what we needed them to be.

Are you saying this for both the 2009 & the 2010 team, or just the 2010 team? I completely agree if the latter.


Again, in 2009, Frank Bush knew... in 2010, he didn't? I don't get it.

Richard Smith, I agree. He was clueless.

irrelevant. Whether Kubiak left or not, the team that played the 2010 season would have been mostly his guys. It's rare to turn a roster over completely in one offseason. We still would have been playing with Kubiak's team & whatever coach would have been here would have been better off than what Kubiak was when he got here. For one, he'd have at least a handful of quality starters on both sides of the ball. Kubiak got here, & there was a WR, LG/LT, & a CB. I might be missing one or two starters from the 2006 team... but only one or two.

He also would have had a competent GM (though I think he's asleep at the wheel a little too often, he's better than the guy Kubiak started with).

If I color coated dog bowls to represent possible draft picks and I chose them by which bowl he ate, together we'd draft better than Casserly. It's relevant because had it been a regular season without the looming lockout, Kubiak is gone and we don't see where the Kubiak experiment goes when he FINALLY gets it all right.

He'd also have an owner that actually knows something about the business. McNair was clueless about how things work in the NFL & you can see a big change in how he goes about his business now than 2006. Always a business man, I know that. But he didn't know jack about the NFL.

Antonio is overpaid. Not grossly, not as bad as Weaver was. But he's overpaid.

Point is we had to pay him that much just to get him to come here. I'm not even sure he was even considered a second tier FA.

& we're going to have to define "revising" because I don't know what you mean. I listed the guys we drafted. Not could have drafted, not should have drafted.... but the guys we drafted & remarked on the similarities of them & what I felt was a common theme.

Two points about Dunta, one I'm talking about the money we gave him to play one year. If you're going to call McNair cheap, you have to look at the money he's spending. Aj, Schaub, Dunta.... & all the bad FA moves we made in the past should (but I don't know why it doesn't) squash any "cheap" argument.

I'm not talking about being cheap. I'm talking about franchising a player does not amount to the same thing as signing a FA. It's like getting your car fixed and claiming you bought a new one.

The other, as someone else mentioned, Dunta was the best Corner available in 2009.... we franchised him. He was second to Bodden in 2010, we struck out on Bodden & didn't see the value of signing Dunta for another $9M...... what did you expect them to do? **** a Starting Cornerback? If only it were that easy.

I would have at least thought they would have gone out of house for a veteran instead of running out so many young guys or looked to trade for some experience. We'll never know though if that was a viable option.

Yes.

If I remember right, we were the highest bidder for Manning & Jjo... I don't know if anyone else was interested in Jjo, his own team didn't make him an offer. You seem to be thinking of the 2011 Jjo, not the solid-but-nothing-special 2010 & before Jjo.

I think J-Jo was largely regarded as the second best corner after Aso and I am under the impression That Cinci wanted to make him and offer, but was stuck deciding between Leon Hall or Him. The Texans didn't really seem to be on the radar until it was announced. I could be wrong on the latter part though.

I am just not so sure, like you, that he just jumps on board without Wade here. Maybe it's the fan part of me that's cynical about FA's we went after in the past using us to jack up other team's prices.

Same for Manning, he was probably thought of as damaged goods. I don't know how many people were trying to sign him, but I know Chicago wasn't.

You could be right about Manning more so than J-Jo.

These guys were 2nd tier FAs who we overpaid for, but they played up to their contracts. These are the same type of guys we've gotten in FA before, Wade Smith, Sean Cody, Antonio Smith. Young with potential.


& I just don't think it's "all of a sudden" they've been a missing piece away for a long time. I think the biggest missing piece, is that the average of the group, the core are the veterans that we never had. The keep it together, keep chopping guys that hold everything together & lead on the field. Cushing, Antonio, Quin, Myers, Brown, Winston, Aj....

Yes, I think Jjo & Manning brought some needed veteran leadership. I also think Arian Foster, though he's young brought some of that fiery on the field stuff that Demeco brought with him back in 2006... but back then, he was alone in that regard. We have more on the field leaders than we ever had.

I had been thinking along those lines for a while. In the past, we were making up ways to lose games. That happens when you've got a team of guys who just aren't any good (which I never thought) or when you've got a bunch of young guys out there with no or little leadership.

All other things being equal, yes, you're right, I agree with you & we should probably stop this discussion right here (but you know I won't).

If Frank Bush was here & had the same draft & the same attrition throughout the year, the Titans would have one another game (against us) & won the division with a 10-6 record. We most likely wouldn't have won 6 games.

So yeah, you're right.

At the same time, all I'm saying is had we gone with someone other than Kubiak in 2006, I'm not so sure we would be any better off. It took him a long time, I'm not disagreeing there. But I'd hate to have gone on the coaching carousel the Rams, Bills, Lions, & 49ers have gone on.

Yeah, the 9ers seem to have got it together now, but it took the organization 10 years (I think)... & 2012 will tell us if they've actually got something other than fools gold (same as us).

Yeah, but again I'm looking at the 49ers after one year under Jim Harbaugh and they made it to the NFC championship game.... in one year. All things equal...would it be safe to assume that Harbaugh made the biggest impact?


Explain 2009.

Better personnel at DB and certainly helps to have Cushing out there playing like a mad-man. I don't think anyone really saw the ROY performance when we drafted him. I did expect him to be an impact player, but not ROY. I think most of us had concerns of the steroids use rumors going on around him and if he could keep on the field.

I think the decision pretty much made itself. We weren't going to resign Dunta, I'm good with that decision & will support it 6 ways to Sunday. We didn't resign Reeves.... he & Bennett & Moulden couldn't get on the field anyway... just because they're older doesn't make them better. It's arguable, but I'm not going to give them a hard time about it.

The bigger mistake I think was not being aggresive, trying to compensate for that youth. But being aggressive is what masked Pollard's inability to cover in 2009. It would have helped us (I think) more than hurt us.

I agree on having to let Dunta walk. I think not re-upping Reeves was a mistake. Not so much that he was so good, much as he was better than any of the other DBs we had on the roster at the time.

Pollard was good in '09 because he was able to play towards what he is...which is an in the box safety.




Now I think you are the one revising history. In 2009, it wasn't that the defense turned it on too late. They played lights out from week 5 through week 17. We didn't have a running game, couldn't pick up 3rd & short, couldn't punch it into the endzone.... Our failure in 2009 had less to do with the defense than it did with our inability to pick up a yard.

Looking back over the games, you're right. 2009 was the year this team got inventive on how to lose close games. I guess 2009 and 2010 flip flopped so much that I was mixing up the two struggles on the O and on the D.


Chris Brown GODDAMN you! :foottap:

thunderkyss
05-10-2012, 03:00 PM
I think J-Jo was largely regarded as the second best corner after Aso and I am under the impression That Cinci wanted to make him and offer, but was stuck deciding between Leon Hall or Him. The Texans didn't really seem to be on the radar until it was announced. I could be wrong on the latter part though.

I am just not so sure, like you, that he just jumps on board without Wade here. Maybe it's the fan part of me that's cynical about FA's we went after in the past using us to jack up other team's prices.


& it was the same with Antonio Smith, Wade Smith, even Weaver at the time was the #2 (maybe 3) guy on the FA depth charts. Getting Jjo was no different.

He just outperformed anyone's expectations.

Better personnel at DB and certainly helps to have Cushing out there playing like a mad-man.


The personnel thing isn't on him, that's the GM. Cushing... I think his drop off in play was just as much because Bush didn't have the gnads to use him the way he should.

Like I said, it was a gnads issue, not a competency issue.


Pollard was good in '09 because he was able to play towards what he is...which is an in the box safety.


Again with the gnads. I don't think Bush didn't know what to do with Pollard, he did a great job with him in 2009. He was just too scared to get burned on the big play..... even though we were still getting burned on the big play.

I know it's hard to say we need to be more aggressive on the front end & "slack-off" on the backend. But if you have faith in your system, like Wade does, you make that call.

Kj has issues. As much as I defend him, I've never denied that. But we brought him in to be a corner in the NFL. If he couldn't hack it, then we need to sit him & see what the next guy has.

I loved Glover Quin at Corner, I loved McCain in the slot. If our front seven played like they did in 2009 & 2011, I'm confident Quin, Eugene, & even Pollard could manage on the back end. We'd have only been vulnerable in one spot..... Kj. Instead, with the way he played it we were vulnerable every where, from the LB level to the Safeties in pass coverage.

But I know he knew better, because he did better in 2009 & he did better in those spurts throughout the season for those comebacks. Just looks like he didn't have any faith.

I think the DC has to have a short memory, just like a QB, just like a DB. Get burned on one play, forget about it & go get them the next time.

badboy
05-10-2012, 03:21 PM
Who's revising? I'm not saying those were good teams or that they did anything other than what they did. All I'm saying, is that those teams were the beginnings of the team we saw in 2011. It was more of an evolutionary thing, not something totally new that started with Wade.

He managed them just fine in 2009. I'm not saying he belongs in the H.O.F. of defensive coordinators, but if nothing else, 2009 proves he was at least competent. & we played much better offenses in 2009 than we played in 2011, including the SuperBowl appearing Kurt Warner led Cardinals & a Peyton Manning led Colts (x2).

How do you go from competent one year to no clue the next? That just doesn't make sense.

They flipped a switch in 2009 after 4 games. It wasn't a case of too little too late. 2010, Frank never adjusted to playing "aggresive" for much of any game. Didn't make sense to me. We got back into games because the defense would play aggressive for small spurts.

Are you saying this for both the 2009 & the 2010 team, or just the 2010 team? I completely agree if the latter.

Again, in 2009, Frank Bush knew... in 2010, he didn't? I don't get it.

Richard Smith, I agree. He was clueless.

irrelevant. Whether Kubiak left or not, the team that played the 2010 season would have been mostly his guys. It's rare to turn a roster over completely in one offseason. We still would have been playing with Kubiak's team & whatever coach would have been here would have been better off than what Kubiak was when he got here. For one, he'd have at least a handful of quality starters on both sides of the ball. Kubiak got here, & there was a WR, LG/LT, & a CB. I might be missing one or two starters from the 2006 team... but only one or two.

He also would have had a competent GM (though I think he's asleep at the wheel a little too often, he's better than the guy Kubiak started with).

He'd also have an owner that actually knows something about the business. McNair was clueless about how things work in the NFL & you can see a big change in how he goes about his business now than 2006. Always a business man, I know that. But he didn't know jack about the NFL.

Antonio is overpaid. Not grossly, not as bad as Weaver was. But he's overpaid.

& we're going to have to define "revising" because I don't know what you mean. I listed the guys we drafted. Not could have drafted, not should have drafted.... but the guys we drafted & remarked on the similarities of them & what I felt was a common theme.

Two points about Dunta, one I'm talking about the money we gave him to play one year. If you're going to call McNair cheap, you have to look at the money he's spending. Aj, Schaub, Dunta.... & all the bad FA moves we made in the past should (but I don't know why it doesn't) squash any "cheap" argument.

The other, as someone else mentioned, Dunta was the best Corner available in 2009.... we franchised him. He was second to Bodden in 2010, we struck out on Bodden & didn't see the value of signing Dunta for another $9M...... what did you expect them to do? **** a Starting Cornerback? If only it were that easy.


Yes.

If I remember right, we were the highest bidder for Manning & Jjo... I don't know if anyone else was interested in Jjo, his own team didn't make him an offer. You seem to be thinking of the 2011 Jjo, not the solid-but-nothing-special 2010 & before Jjo.

Same for Manning, he was probably thought of as damaged goods. I don't know how many people were trying to sign him, but I know Chicago wasn't.

These guys were 2nd tier FAs who we overpaid for, but they played up to their contracts. These are the same type of guys we've gotten in FA before, Wade Smith, Sean Cody, Antonio Smith. Young with potential.


& I just don't think it's "all of a sudden" they've been a missing piece away for a long time. I think the biggest missing piece, is that the average of the group, the core are the veterans that we never had. The keep it together, keep chopping guys that hold everything together & lead on the field. Cushing, Antonio, Quin, Myers, Brown, Winston, Aj....

Yes, I think Jjo & Manning brought some needed veteran leadership. I also think Arian Foster, though he's young brought some of that fiery on the field stuff that Demeco brought with him back in 2006... but back then, he was alone in that regard. We have more on the field leaders than we ever had.

I had been thinking along those lines for a while. In the past, we were making up ways to lose games. That happens when you've got a team of guys who just aren't any good (which I never thought) or when you've got a bunch of young guys out there with no or little leadership.

All other things being equal, yes, you're right, I agree with you & we should probably stop this discussion right here (but you know I won't).

If Frank Bush was here & had the same draft & the same attrition throughout the year, the Titans would have one another game (against us) & won the division with a 10-6 record. We most likely wouldn't have won 6 games.

So yeah, you're right.

At the same time, all I'm saying is had we gone with someone other than Kubiak in 2006, I'm not so sure we would be any better off. It took him a long time, I'm not disagreeing there. But I'd hate to have gone on the coaching carousel the Rams, Bills, Lions, & 49ers have gone on.

Yeah, the 9ers seem to have got it together now, but it took the organization 10 years (I think)... & 2012 will tell us if they've actually got something other than fools gold (same as us).


Explain 2009.

I think the decision pretty much made itself. We weren't going to resign Dunta, I'm good with that decision & will support it 6 ways to Sunday. We didn't resign Reeves.... he & Bennett & Moulden couldn't get on the field anyway... just because they're older doesn't make them better. It's arguable, but I'm not going to give them a hard time about it.

The bigger mistake I think was not being aggresive, trying to compensate for that youth. But being aggressive is what masked Pollard's inability to cover in 2009. It would have helped us (I think) more than hurt us.




Now I think you are the one revising history. In 2009, it wasn't that the defense turned it on too late. They played lights out from week 5 through week 17. We didn't have a running game, couldn't pick up 3rd & short, couldn't punch it into the endzone.... Our failure in 2009 had less to do with the defense than it did with our inability to pick up a yard.You & GS are doing fine but want to drop a few thoughts in..looking at Bush in 2009 compared to 2010. IIRC, in 2010 Frank tried to increase the amount of his defense he was teaching compared to 2009. I believe I read that about 1/3 though '10 he said he had to "back it down" as it was too complex. Players were about the same so it had to be either his "playbook" or his teaching abilities. I go with the latter. Here is where Wade really impressed me. He had minimal time to install a somewhat different scheme with players whose skills had been chosen for a 4-3. Posters were praying for a D that would land somewhere in the middle of the pack & saying Gary's offense should win enough games to get to first round of playoffs. I am hoping more time to teach will strengthen our guys. This year I am saying if Defense can hold it's own and Offense ramps it up.....

Also, don't want to forget improvement I hope to see Special Teams. Maybe the coach will have some regulars to scheme with if fewer injuries. This in itself could be huge.

drs23
05-10-2012, 05:15 PM
You & GS are doing fine but want to drop a few thoughts in..looking at Bush in 2009 compared to 2010. IIRC, in 2010 Frank tried to increase the amount of his defense he was teaching compared to 2009. I believe I read that about 1/3 though '10 he said he had to "back it down" as it was too complex. Players were about the same so it had to be either his "playbook" or his teaching abilities. I go with the latter. Here is where Wade really impressed me. He had minimal time to install a somewhat different scheme with players whose skills had been chosen for a 4-3. Posters were praying for a D that would land somewhere in the middle of the pack & saying Gary's offense should win enough games to get to first round of playoffs. I am hoping more time to teach will strengthen our guys. This year I am saying if Defense can hold it's own and Offense ramps it up.....

Also, don't want to forget improvement I hope to see Special Teams. Maybe the coach will have some regulars to scheme with if fewer injuries. This in itself could be huge.

Myself as well. After reading, searching and watching clips (though they're highlights) I'm really looking forward to see Martin in action. I remember Coach Joe's comment about him attacking the middle of the field on his returns and then breaking to the edge and that's exactly what I saw on his YouTube clips. And he looked pretty dadgum crisp running routes out of the slot and behold and low, he actually caught the majority of the passes thrown his way. And when he snagged 'em he knew what to do.

Can't wait for the team to get on the field this offseason and hearing the reports of those able to attend!

The Pencil Neck
05-10-2012, 05:31 PM
If I remember right, we were the highest bidder for Manning & Jjo... I don't know if anyone else was interested in Jjo, his own team didn't make him an offer. You seem to be thinking of the 2011 Jjo, not the solid-but-nothing-special 2010 & before Jjo.

Same for Manning, he was probably thought of as damaged goods. I don't know how many people were trying to sign him, but I know Chicago wasn't.

These guys were 2nd tier FAs who we overpaid for, but they played up to their contracts. These are the same type of guys we've gotten in FA before, Wade Smith, Sean Cody, Antonio Smith. Young with potential.


JJo was the 2nd highest rated CB prospect in FA last year. No one was making him an offer because everyone was waiting for Nnamdi to set the market.

We made NNAMDI the highest offer he received and when he hemmed and hawed playing us off his other bidders, we changed targets and went after JJo and Manning.

Like JJo, Manning was rated the 2nd or 3rd highest available FA safety behind Weddle. There were some questions about Manning but I don't recall what they were.

I considered both of these guys 1st tier FAs and I think they got those kinds of contracts and I think they're living up to them.

drs23
05-10-2012, 07:06 PM
JJo was the 2nd highest rated CB prospect in FA last year. No one was making him an offer because everyone was waiting for Nnamdi to set the market.

We made NNAMDI the highest offer he received and when he hemmed and hawed playing us off his other bidders, we changed targets and went after JJo and Manning.

Like JJo, Manning was rated the 2nd or 3rd highest available FA safety behind Weddle. There were some questions about Manning but I don't recall what they were.

I considered both of these guys 1st tier FAs and I think they got those kinds of contracts and I think they're living up to them.

That's the way I recall it as well. Several here were touting JJo right off the bat. JB was the first to herald him IIRC. Then Rick Smith got tired of Aso's shenanigans fairley quickly and pulled the trigger on the twofer. Great call and execution by the FO I think.

Texecutioner
05-10-2012, 08:28 PM
Solidifying? Hopefully so, although many seem to forget that we have had one winning season out of 6 under this regime. The only positive out of that is the fact that we had our best season just last year. I remember hearing this same stuff before the 2010 season and we went 6-10 where the coaching staff should have all been fired. Hopefully they can have back to back great seasons, but we'll wait and see what happens.

The Pencil Neck
05-10-2012, 09:05 PM
Solidifying? Hopefully so, although many seem to forget that we have had one winning season out of 6 under this regime. The only positive out of that is the fact that we had our best season just last year. I remember hearing this same stuff before the 2010 season and we went 6-10 where the coaching staff should have all been fired. Hopefully they can have back to back great seasons, but we'll wait and see what happens.

That's not exactly true.

We've had 2 losing seasons, 2 even seasons, and 2 winning seasons. We've only been to the playoffs 1 season.

I'm not disagreeing with your point, just that one fact.

gafftop
05-11-2012, 08:40 AM
Solidifying? Hopefully so, although many seem to forget that we have had one winning season out of 6 under this regime. The only positive out of that is the fact that we had our best season just last year. I remember hearing this same stuff before the 2010 season and we went 6-10 where the coaching staff should have all been fired. Hopefully they can have back to back great seasons, but we'll wait and see what happens.

Yep I agree. Could we see the "Fire" thread raise its ugly head?
I would have felt a whole lot better if we would have had the SAME team (less Mario obviously) as last year with a healthy Schaub and additions (WR, DE/LB, CB)

thunderkyss
05-11-2012, 12:29 PM
You & GS are doing fine but want to drop a few thoughts in..looking at Bush in 2009 compared to 2010. IIRC, in 2010 Frank tried to increase the amount of his defense he was teaching compared to 2009. I believe I read that about 1/3 though '10 he said he had to "back it down" as it was too complex. Players were about the same so it had to be either his "playbook" or his teaching abilities. I go with the latter.

I don't know... I don't think our guys are dummies & they should be able to absorb a play-book. No "6" on the wonderlics here.

But I saw a team trying to keep everything in front of them but couldn't. I didn't see Brian Cushing attack the LOS like he did so well in 2009 & 2011..... I know there is the PED thing, but if you watch, he's at the LOS when the ball is snapped in 2009 & 2011, but playing read & react 5 yards back in 2010.

I honestly think it was bad thinking. Trying to get Antonio to plug holes instead of penetrate.... that's what I saw, game after game after game.

It's like going through some of 76Texans' Kj reviews. Technically speaking, the kid isn't doing anything wrong (on the plays he managed to stay on his feet). But if you fall in line with 76's thinking (I know some people don't), just about every play had an element or two of containing the play.....

In 2009 & 2011, the corners were left on an island more times than not & we relied on the pass rush to get to the QB before coverage broke down.

thunderkyss
05-11-2012, 12:41 PM
JJo was the 2nd highest rated CB prospect in FA last year. No one was making him an offer because everyone was waiting for Nnamdi to set the market.

We made NNAMDI the highest offer he received and when he hemmed and hawed playing us off his other bidders, we changed targets and went after JJo and Manning.

Like JJo, Manning was rated the 2nd or 3rd highest available FA safety behind Weddle. There were some questions about Manning but I don't recall what they were.

I considered both of these guys 1st tier FAs and I think they got those kinds of contracts and I think they're living up to them.

Anthony Weaver was the 2nd highest ranked DE when he was a FA, so was Antonio Smith. Wade Smith was the 2nd highest ranked offensive lineman.

Sean Cody was probably the highest ranked NT when he was a FA. It all depends on who is a FA at what time, being second doesn't necessarily mean you're tier 1 talent.

Everybody was waiting on Nnamdi, because he was considered tier 1. Mario Williams was considered Tier 1.

In a year when you've got an Arian Foster, Ray Rice, and Matt Forte.... you've got three tier one guys who can sign in what ever order..... doesn't matter.

But everybody was waiting on Nnamdi to look at Jjo, because Nnamdi was tier 1 & Jjo wasn't.

If they were free agents this year, it would probably be flip-flopped. But at the time, Jjo was not on anyone's tier 1 list.

& Manning broke his leg or something with the Bears, missed some time.

That's the way I recall it as well. Several here were touting JJo right off the bat. JB was the first to herald him IIRC. Then Rick Smith got tired of Aso's shenanigans fairley quickly and pulled the trigger on the twofer. Great call and execution by the FO I think.

Right off the bat everyone knew Nnamdi was going to want a bucket load of cash & Jjo was going to come cheap. The thinking was, "instead of spending a bucket on Nnamdi, spend that same bucket on Jjo & some other quality-starter-type FA."

I was one of those guys. Except I had Ike Taylor ranked ahead of Jjo as far as skill, but would have preferred Jjo because of the age.

Jjo was not tier 1.

Rey
05-11-2012, 12:59 PM
I was one of those guys. Except I had Ike Taylor ranked ahead of Jjo as far as skill, but would have preferred Jjo because of the age.

Jjo was not tier 1.

Joseph's biggest knock had been his ability to stay healthy...

Other than that I think he was considered a top CB in the league.

No he probably wasn't tier 1 in relation to Aso, but I think you might be selling Joseph a bit short. The guy was a stud before coming here.

badboy
05-11-2012, 01:04 PM
I don't know... I don't think our guys are dummies & they should be able to absorb a play-book. No "6" on the wonderlics here.

But I saw a team trying to keep everything in front of them but couldn't. I didn't see Brian Cushing attack the LOS like he did so well in 2009 & 2011..... I know there is the PED thing, but if you watch, he's at the LOS when the ball is snapped in 2009 & 2011, but playing read & react 5 yards back in 2010.

I honestly think it was bad thinking. Trying to get Antonio to plug holes instead of penetrate.... that's what I saw, game after game after game.

It's like going through some of 76Texans' Kj reviews. Technically speaking, the kid isn't doing anything wrong (on the plays he managed to stay on his feet). But if you fall in line with 76's thinking (I know some people don't), just about every play had an element or two of containing the play.....

In 2009 & 2011, the corners were left on an island more times than not & we relied on the pass rush to get to the QB before coverage broke down.There were definitley some bad management calls such as Antonio & having Cush playing out of position a game or two.