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CloakNNNdagger
05-06-2012, 10:03 AM
Colts hope to use two, and even three, tight endsPosted by Mike Florio on May 5, 2012, 9:51 PM EDT

The NFL is the ultimate copycat league. And for a team that went 2-14 last season, it’s important to find a successful franchise to emulate.

Colts coach Chuck Pagano, who while coordinating the defense in Baltimore witnessed first hand the challenges of dealing with the two top-end tight ends on the Patriots roster, hopes to put together a similar attack in Indianapolis.

“It is a match-up nightmare,” Pagano said Saturday, via comments circulated by the team. “Coming off of the AFC Championship game, nobody knew better than the Ravens going into that game with the two guys [Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez] that [the Patriots] have. It is across the league. You can see it more and more every year.

“You can choose to put a defensive back on them, and they will be undersized, they will get outmuscled and they will get ‘big-boyed’ for the ball. Then you can put a safety or a linebacker on them and they can’t run with them. So we feel like the two guys that we added, and Dominique [Jones] is a physical presence, that guy is 260 pounds and moving around really well. It is a match-up nightmare for any defense.”

The two guys the Colts added are Coby Fleener and Dwayne Allen, taken in the second-round and third-round, respectively, of last weekend’s draft.

Quarterback Andrew Luck took it an extra step. “With three tight ends, do you put an extra safety in [the box] and try to stop the run or do you leave your regular defense in?” Luck said. “How do you do it? How do you match-up with those guys? Do you put a linebacker on them to cover them when they split out wide? So I think it creates mismatches.”

That would be a nice change for the Colts, given that they typically were on the wrong side of the mismatches in 2011.

It appears that as other teams have focused on the importance of a multi-TE system, the Texans are showing (at least at this point in the offseason) a lesser interest in TE strength.

Blake
05-06-2012, 10:04 AM
It appears that as other teams have focused on the importance of a multi-TE system, the Texans are showing (at least at this point in the offseason) a lesser interest in TE strength.

Sweet. Just more TE's for our OLB to beat up on.

Playoffs
05-06-2012, 10:51 AM
Below average O-line, below average defense/@WR/running game ..... Colts will be dinking & dunking to their rookie TEs hoping to keep Luck alive. Problem is Fleener's ceiling is that of Owen Daniels, not Gronkowski or Graham. Allen is an in line blocking TE, not Aaron Hernandez. So I don't see Indy executing at the level of New England ... ever.

GP
05-06-2012, 11:26 AM
Just as the Texans in the 2011 draft beefed up on the defense for every pick except the TJ Yates pick...the Colts have to stock up on OL in the next draft or begin picking up free agent OL.

Two TEs doesn't make you a good passing offense. You have to have a great OL and you have to have a potent RB, too. And a FB for certain packages. And you have to have a great o-coord running it all.

They're in the infancy stages of re-inventing their offense, so you obviously cannot buy all the groceries all at once. They have to make lots of right moves in order to complete their new system.

And I still think there's something about Andrew Luck that tells me he won't be as good as Peyton Manning was. Ok, I get it: Luck is one of the best prospects SINCE Manning...but that's not saying he will be like Manning. He might be the next Drew Bledsoe or the next Sage Rosenfels...a guy who is accurate but doesn't really have an all-world NFL career.

He's going to see and experience things in the NFL that he never did at Stanford. The game is faster, it's bigger, it's stronger, and it's less forgiving and more punishing than NCAA. Ask Vince Young.

gtexan02
05-06-2012, 12:12 PM
2 TE sets work really, really well... when you have Tom Brady throwing to Gronk and Hernandez. Luck and Fleener have a long, long way to go before they are Brady to Gronk

Vinny
05-06-2012, 12:30 PM
Colts ran lots of two te stuff before...so, what's new?

Rey
05-06-2012, 12:37 PM
Colts ran lots of two te stuff before...so, what's new?

Sounds like they will be using 3 TE sets more now.

The Pencil Neck
05-06-2012, 12:38 PM
Colts ran lots of two te stuff before...so, what's new?

Yeah, this is kind of a "so what" to me. They were like the Texans in that they ran a higher percentage of 2 TE sets than a lot of teams. At least when both Clark and Tamme were healthy.

I don't know how much they ran 3 TE sets. I didn't really pay that much attention to their sets.

Vinny
05-06-2012, 12:40 PM
Sounds like they will be using 3 TE sets more now.using two te's with a "pass catching" TE in the slot isn't all that novel.

Vinny
05-06-2012, 12:41 PM
Yeah, this is kind of a "so what" to me. They were like the Texans in that they ran a higher percentage of 2 TE sets than a lot of teams. At least when both Clark and Tamme were healthy.

I don't know how much they ran 3 TE sets. I didn't really pay that much attention to their sets.
yeah, they ran a lot of balanced formations with a stretch play action. It's just gonna be with different numbers on the jersies. :)

ChampionTexan
05-06-2012, 01:13 PM
Colts ran lots of two te stuff before...so, what's new?
Pretty much everything else except the two te stuff.

Rey
05-06-2012, 01:27 PM
using two te's with a "pass catching" TE in the slot isn't all that novel.

I don't recall too many teams doing that, but besides that I don't recall the colts running many 3 TE sets.

Lucky
05-06-2012, 01:30 PM
Below average O-line, below average defense/@WR/running game ..... Colts will be dinking & dunking to their rookie TEs hoping to keep Luck alive. Problem is Fleener's ceiling is that of Owen Daniels, not Gronkowski or Graham. Allen is an in line blocking TE, not Aaron Hernandez. So I don't see Indy executing at the level of New England ... ever.
First, I agree that the Colts initially will have more of a dink and dunk offense. What I disagree with is your evaluations of Fleener and Allen. Fleener's measurables and production compare very favorably to Gronkowski and Graham. And Allen is not strictly an inline TE (if he is even that). He's a former basketball player who understands positioning and has great hands.

Who knows how the Indy offense will shake out down the road. But I think Indy going 2 TEs is smart, with the proliferation of 3-4 defenses. And with the best QB, and 2 best TEs in the draft, the Colts have a good chance of eventually making it work.

CloakNNNdagger
05-06-2012, 02:09 PM
Colts insist they aren’t rebuilding (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/06/colts-insist-they-arent-rebuilding/)

As the Colts try to rebuild a franchise that went 2-14 in 2011 and that lost its franchise quarterback prematurely and that cut or didn’t re-sign various other key contributors, the team insists that it’s not rebuilding.

“Too old to be rebuilding,” Reggie Wayne said recently, via Mike Chappell of the Indianapolis Star. “The only thing I’m rebuilding is the cars in my garage.”

New quarterback Andrew Luck agrees, with a less entertaining description.

“I don’t think anybody is viewing it as a rebuilding season,” Luck said, via Chappell. “There are great players on this team, guys that have made the playoffs for x-amount of years in a row and then maybe missed out last year. I know they are hungry. I just hope that I can help them achieve that goal.”

Meanwhile, coach Chuck Pagano is trying to convince the new players that they can become the next wave of great players.

“We said, ‘You wouldn’t be sitting in this room if someone didn’t see something in you . . . somebody in here is going to be the next Dallas Clark, and somebody is going to be the next Joe Addai,’” Pagano said.

As long as Luck isn’t the next Curtis Painter, the Colts should be fine. Still, even Manning was 3-13 as a rookie, and he had Marshall Faulk and Marvin Harrison.

http://shirahvollmermd.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/delusional.gif

GP
05-06-2012, 02:32 PM
I remember how all of the Colts players, last year at the start of the season, said they weren't scared at all about not having Manning as the QB. I mean, they acted like it was no big deal and that they were all together and would still be fine on Sundays. Oops.

Luck is a good prospect. Fleener is a good prospect. Outside of that, they have Reggie Wayne. They lost Garcon, have a new HC, rookie QB, rookie TE who will be expected to be top-flight for their rookie QB, no running game, no o-line, and a very awful defense that did not get vastly better via FA nor in the draft.

They have their work cut out for them. The Titans are the only team that concerns me in the AFCS. Colts and Jags are going to be pedestrian all year long.

The Colts offense will struggle to surpass their 2011 numbers, IMO. The learning curve is too steep, the talent is too shallow, and the rest of the NFL is not going to be scared of The Stanford Two.

The Pencil Neck
05-06-2012, 03:06 PM
I remember how all of the Colts players, last year at the start of the season, said they weren't scared at all about not having Manning as the QB. I mean, they acted like it was no big deal and that they were all together and would still be fine on Sundays. Oops.

I've re-watched that game a few times already this offseason. At the beginning of the game, Dan Dierdorf recounted about how he talked to the Colts vets and how pissed off they were about how some people were picking them to only win a game or two and how ridiculous that was and how they were going to come out and show the world that they were a professional team and very talented and blah blah blah. It's almost embarrassing to listen to.

But so fun to watch us beat the snot out of them.

Vinny
05-06-2012, 06:15 PM
I don't recall too many teams doing that, but besides that I don't recall the colts running many 3 TE sets.
Most teams run them in short yardage. If they run them in conventional down and distance situations is to be seen. As far as splitting the TE out off the line or putting him in motion into a pattern is all this is. Happens in every game of the year by any team that has a pass catching TE type.

Playoffs
05-06-2012, 06:22 PM
But so fun to watch us beat the snot out of them.Almost as fun as hammering tacks. :fans:

Playoffs
05-06-2012, 06:56 PM
What I disagree with is your evaluations of Fleener and Allen.Not my evaluations -- from Bob McGinn: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/draftcaps21-vn4vq5o-148344735.html
TIGHT ENDS
Name School HT. WT. 40-Yd. Dash Rd.
1. COBY FLEENER Stanford 6-6 247 4.52 1-2
Reminded one scout of former Cowboy Jay Novacek. "The movement type guy - tough guy you can wham-block with," that scout said. "A smart guy with a real good feel for route running." Compared by others to Todd Heap. "You know, the vertical, big plays, catch the ball and run," said Dominik. "He's more of a long stretch tight end." Named by his mother after former Redskins T Joe Jacoby, whose jersey she spotted on TV. Came out of Joliet (Ill.) Catholic to start 16 of 51 games for the Cardinal, finishing with 96 catches for 1,543 yards (16.1) and 18 TDs. "He wasn't even the best tight end on their team," another scout said. "No. 11 (sophomore Levine Toilolo), that's the real deal. He might be the most overrated guy in the draft. He's awful as a blocker. Despite his workout numbers he's really not a quick-twitch, dynamic-moving guy. He's a straight-line, build-up player. All these reports about him being an athlete and this and that, they're assuming that because he ran fast. He's really just a red-zone, jump-ball player."

2. DWAYNE ALLEN Clemson 6-3 258 4.85 2-3
Fourth-year junior, three-year starter. "He's more old-school," said Gregory. "Nowadays everybody's flexed out. This kid could be a full-time tight end. Blocking and passing. He doesn't have the great vertical speed but he can still get in the seam. Uses his body to post up on guys. Pretty good hands and catching radius. Very, very competitive." Finished with 93 catches for 1,079 yards (11.6) and 12 TDs. "He's not bad," one scout said. "He's a little stiff. Not a bad blocker. He just doesn't finish things the way you wish he would. I think he could be a good on-line tight end." Hails from Fayetteville, N.C. Scored 25 on the Wonderlic.I don't doubt they'll be good players. I'm just questioning if copying the Patriots 2TE offense makes sense if you don't have Rob Gronkowski -- is it Brady+Gronkowski+scheme, or Brady+Top10TE+scheme, or Top10QB+Top10TE+scheme?

GP
05-07-2012, 02:33 AM
I've re-watched that game a few times already this offseason. At the beginning of the game, Dan Dierdorf recounted about how he talked to the Colts vets and how pissed off they were about how some people were picking them to only win a game or two and how ridiculous that was and how they were going to come out and show the world that they were a professional team and very talented and blah blah blah. It's almost embarrassing to listen to.

But so fun to watch us beat the snot out of them.

Yeah, it was very funny to watch them primp and pose in front of the cameras...in full denial of their new reality that was about to ensue.

They have even gotten worse since then. Who is their RB, by the way? Donald Brown or some clown like that?

Did you notice that the Colts seemingly draft a QB #1 every 8 to 10 years? Jeff George, then Manning, and now Luck?

What if Luck turns out to be more Jeff George than Peyton Manning? We were told Reggie Bush was the next Gale Sayers. He was going to be other-worldly immediately, according to all the major analysts who covered that year's draft. Houston was officially deemed to be a colossal failure for not drafting him.

I can see the same thing happening with Luck. Every year the Kipers and Mayocks have to have a golden boy who is "the best in the world" and all that jazz. I think Luck has a lot of pressure. You never want to be the man who replaces The Man. You want to be the man who replaced the man who replaced The Man.

76Texan
05-07-2012, 01:29 PM
I don't recall too many teams doing that, but besides that I don't recall the colts running many 3 TE sets.

The Colts have a new coaching staff.

Bruce Arians (their new OC) had the Steelers running a lot of multi-TE sets.

According to this site, the Steelers were in multi-TE personnel 432 times in the regular season; that's 27 times per game.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/03/2012-steelers-roster-position-highlight-tight-end/

With Luck, they will have a guy who has been trained to run the WCO.

TexanSam
05-07-2012, 01:40 PM
I can see the same thing happening with Luck. Every year the Kipers and Mayocks have to have a golden boy who is "the best in the world" and all that jazz. I think Luck has a lot of pressure. You never want to be the man who replaces The Man. You want to be the man who replaced the man who replaced The Man.

I hope that's the case. Because if Luck can handle the pressure of replacing an all-time great and succeeds...well the AFC South is going to be competitive a lot sooner than anticipated.

Playoffs
05-07-2012, 01:40 PM
...the Steelers were in multi-TE personnel 432 times in the regular season; that's 27 times per game.

With Luck, they will have a guy who has been trained to run the WCO.I wonder how often we set up with Dressen & Daniels last year?

The Pencil Neck
05-07-2012, 01:52 PM
I wonder how often we set up with Dressen & Daniels last year?

We run 2 TE sets a LOT. And not just in short down yardage situations. Any time we want to get the other team to think run, we line up in 2 TE because we usually run very effectively from it.

Frequently someone lines up in the slot just off the tackle in what is effectively a 2nd TE position, just not up on the line. Sometimes that's a TE, sometimes a WR, and sometimes the FB.

Goldensilence
05-08-2012, 05:14 PM
Below average O-line, below average defense/@WR/running game ..... Colts will be dinking & dunking to their rookie TEs hoping to keep Luck alive. Problem is Fleener's ceiling is that of Owen Daniels, not Gronkowski or Graham. Allen is an in line blocking TE, not Aaron Hernandez. So I don't see Indy executing at the level of New England ... ever.

First, I agree that the Colts initially will have more of a dink and dunk offense. What I disagree with is your evaluations of Fleener and Allen. Fleener's measurables and production compare very favorably to Gronkowski and Graham. And Allen is not strictly an inline TE (if he is even that). He's a former basketball player who understands positioning and has great hands.

Who knows how the Indy offense will shake out down the road. But I think Indy going 2 TEs is smart, with the proliferation of 3-4 defenses. And with the best QB, and 2 best TEs in the draft, the Colts have a good chance of eventually making it work.

Beat me to it Lucky.

I understand why some people are going to be down on Luck, specially being the same division. While I don't think highly of the PAC-12 he ran the offense there to perfection and didn't drop off after Harbaugh's move to the NFL. He's not flashy as RG3, but he's still pretty damn athletic and seems to have a great understanding of how the position is played. One of the things not talked about is comparing the two...is how many less sacks Luck took.

I think he's going to be fine, hopefully later than sooner.

Far as running two TE's set...umm what what did you expect when the drafted two TEs high?

BullBlitz
05-08-2012, 07:57 PM
Below average O-line, below average defense/@WR/running game ..... Colts will be dinking & dunking to their rookie TEs hoping to keep Luck alive. Problem is Fleener's ceiling is that of Owen Daniels, not Gronkowski or Graham. Allen is an in line blocking TE, not Aaron Hernandez. So I don't see Indy executing at the level of New England ... ever.

I do. Luck is going to be outstanding, and he and Fleener will be in sync from the start. I'm glad that we don't play the Colts until near the end of the year.