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Playoffs
04-23-2012, 03:54 PM
Sources: Saints' GM could eavesdrop (http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7846290/new-orleans-saints-mickey-loomis-eavesdrop-opposing-coaches-home-games)
April 23, 2012, 3:46 PM ET
By John Barr | ESPN

NEW ORLEANS -- The U.S. Attorney's Office in the Eastern District of Louisiana was told Friday that New Orleans Saints general manager Mickey Loomis had an electronic device in his Superdome suite that had been secretly re-wired to enable him to eavesdrop on visiting coaching staffs for nearly three NFL seasons, "Outside the Lines" has learned.

Sources familiar with Saints game-day operations told "Outside the Lines" that Loomis, who faces an eight-game suspension from the NFL for his role in the recent bounty scandal, had the ability to secretly listen for most of the 2002 season, his first as general manager of the Saints, and all of the 2003 and 2004 seasons. The sources spoke with "Outside the Lines" under the condition of anonymity because of fear of reprisals from members of the Saints organization.

Jim Letten, the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Louisiana, acknowledged being told of the allegations Friday and has briefed the FBI in New Orleans about Loomis' alleged activity, according to sources. If proven, the allegations could be both a violation of NFL rules and potentially a federal crime, according to legal sources. The federal Electronic Communications Privacy Act (ECPA) of 1986 prohibits any person from intercepting communications from another person using an electronic or mechanical device...

Greg Bensel, Saints vice president of communications, said Monday afternoon on behalf of the Saints and Loomis: "This is 1,000 percent false. This is 1,000 percent inaccurate."

read more: http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7846290/new-orleans-saints-mickey-loomis-eavesdrop-opposing-coaches-home-games

GlassHalfFull
04-23-2012, 03:55 PM
:kubepalm:

Oh boy, the hits just keep on coming for the Saints.

badboy
04-23-2012, 04:04 PM
Holy poo poo. How do they spin this? If proven, I think one of the punishments would be to have the Super Bowl taken away.

Fili
04-23-2012, 04:05 PM
They're in deep **** now....

Playoffs
04-23-2012, 04:10 PM
Bill Polian is questioning, among other things, any competitive advantage that might realistically be gained.

Yankee_In_TX
04-23-2012, 04:54 PM
Bill Polian is questioning, among other things, any competitive advantage that might realistically be gained.

Personally, I'd be more worried about jail than a competitive advantage.....

infantrycak
04-23-2012, 04:57 PM
The federal Electronic Communications Privacy Act (ECPA) of 1986 prohibits any person from intercepting communications from another person using an electronic or mechanical device...

So the feds can do it but you can't in your own facility? j/k kind of.

Man the Saints are working hard on giving away their championship.

El Tejano
04-23-2012, 04:58 PM
:kubepalm:

Oh boy, the hits just keep on coming for the Saints.

Noone and I mean noone, especially if your team is the Saints, messes with The NFL's chance to have Brett Favre and Peyton Manning playing against each other in a Super Bowl. NOONE!!!!!

Wolf
04-23-2012, 05:19 PM
damn, if all this is true, the Patriots and Belicheat is looking like a choir boy compared to the Saints staff

powda
04-23-2012, 05:42 PM
So the feds can do it but you can't in your own facility.

A judge would have to sign a warrant 2 make it legal lol. Unless ofcourse the opposing coaching staff was in custody. Almost all of those laws go out the door if its applied 2 a person in custody.

You can now expect everyone 2 distance themselves from loomis as fast as possible. You thought the bonds/ clemens congresional hearings were a waste of tax dollars? Just wait. If theres any credibility 2 this claim its going 2 get real ugly real fast.

disaacks3
04-23-2012, 06:28 PM
Greg Bensel, Saints vice president of communications, said Monday afternoon on behalf of the Saints and Loomis: "This is 1,000 percent false. This is 1,000 percent inaccurate."
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...and if they'd been honest about the bounty system, they might even be believed. Today? Not a chance in ****.

GP
04-23-2012, 06:34 PM
If this is true, then wowzers.

Listening to pre-game and halftime discussions by opposing teams is the lowest of lows in sportsmanship.

If true, that team is rotten to the core. I also think it might be somewhat ethical of the NFL to strip them of their Super Bowl title and give it to the Colts...and I hate the Colts, but I love the game itself more.

At the very least, put an asterisk beside the Saints' name...

*It is uncertain if the Saints won the Super Bowl legitimately or due to knowing what the other team was going to do on the field of play.

And dissacks is right: Can't cry wolf now--You weren't honest about the bounty system, so why would we believe you when you say you never eavesdropped???

Playoffs
04-23-2012, 06:37 PM
Listening to pre-game and halftime discussions by opposing teams is the lowest of lows in sportsmanship.I think they were saying he was plugged into the opposing team's headsets, which would be more about play calls?

welsh texan
04-23-2012, 06:48 PM
How serious is the threat of removing their Superbowl? I just can't imagine any sport doing such a thing. Is there any precedent for it in any American sports?

I know it happened in Italy with Juve's title but that was based on 100% proof that they were bribing referee's and it was done in the year that they won the title.

Its a bit different from listening in on a gameplan 5 years earlier or paying a bit extra for a nasty hit, in what is a violent sport anyway.

The Saints organisation is clearly rotten to the core, I wonder how rife this sort of thing is around the league, on the one hand, if everyone was doing it, you wouldn't expect it to come out like this, on the other, you've got evidence that one club has resorted to shady tactics of different kinds at two seperate points in its recent history, plus you've got the Pats spygate, were they just the unlucky ones in getting caught?

BTW, they posted records of 9-7, 8-8 & 8-8 in the seasons in question, if they had full knowledge of the opposing teams gameplan, that is some effort to be that poor whilst cheating.

Speedy
04-23-2012, 06:58 PM
Quick, somebody dig up Kenesaw Mountain Landis. There's some people that could probably use some lifetime bans.

Dutchrudder
04-23-2012, 06:59 PM
How serious is the threat of removing their Superbowl? I just can't imagine any sport doing such a thing. Is there any precedent for it in any American sports?

I know it happened in Italy with Juve's title but that was based on 100% proof that they were bribing referee's and it was done in the year that they won the title.

Its a bit different from listening in on a gameplan 5 years earlier or paying a bit extra for a nasty hit, in what is a violent sport anyway.

The Saints organisation is clearly rotten to the core, I wonder how rife this sort of thing is around the league, on the one hand, if everyone was doing it, you wouldn't expect it to come out like this, on the other, you've got evidence that one club has resorted to shady tactics of different kinds at two seperate points in its recent history, plus you've got the Pats spygate, were they just the unlucky ones in getting caught?

BTW, they posted records of 9-7, 8-8 & 8-8 in the seasons in question, if they had full knowledge of the opposing teams gameplan, that is some effort to be that poor whilst cheating.

Well, they were so terrible for years that it took them a while to learn how to take advantage of cheating...

GP
04-23-2012, 07:05 PM
I think they were saying he was plugged into the opposing team's headsets, which would be more about play calls?

Cripes, I think you are RIGHT!

From the same article:

Sources told "Outside the Lines" the listening device was first installed in the general manager's suite in 2000, when Loomis' predecessor, Randy Mueller, served as Saints GM. At that time, according to sources, Mueller only had the ability to use the device to monitor the game-day communications of the Saints coaching staff, not the opposing coaches. Mueller, now a senior executive with the San Diego Chargers (he also was an ESPN.com NFL analyst from 2002-05), declined to comment when contacted by "Outside the Lines."

After the transition from Mueller to Loomis, the electronic device was re-wired to listen only to opposing coaches and could no longer be used to listen to any game-day communications between members of the Saints coaching staff, one source said.

"There was a switch, and the switch accessed offense and defense," said the source. "When Randy was there, it was the Saints offense or defense, and when Mickey was there it changed over so it was the visiting offense or defense," the source said.

"Outside the Lines" could not determine for certain whether Loomis ever made use of the electronic setup.

The sources said when Loomis took his seat during home games, then in the front row of box No. 4 in the 300 level of the Superdome's north side, he was able to plug an earpiece into a jack that was under the desk in front of him. The earpiece was not unlike those used to listen to inexpensive transistor radios, the sources said. With the earpiece in place, Loomis could then toggle back and forth with a switch that he controlled, enabling him to listen to either the game-day communications of the opposing offensive or defensive coaches.

Also underneath the desk in front of Loomis, said the sources, was a metal box that contained two belt packs similar to those worn around the waists of NFL head coaches during games. The packs powered the listening device available to Loomis, which was, according to sources, hard-wired to the audio feed of the opposing coaches.

The wiring setup was disabled sometime in September 2005 in the weeks after Hurricane Katrina ravaged the Gulf Coast. The timing of the device's removal could prove significant for legal reasons. If Loomis used an electronic device to secretly listen to the opposing coaches without their consent, it would appear to be a violation of the federal ECPA statute, said Mike Emmick, a Los Angeles-based attorney.

Emmick worked for 25 years as an assistant U.S. attorney in Los Angeles, serving for eight years as chief of the public corruption and government fraud section.

"The ECPA bars any person from intentionally intercepting wire, oral or electronic communications by using an electronic or mechanical device," Emmick said. "The ECPA doesn't make it illegal just to eavesdrop. You have to have used a device ... Intentional interception by using the device is the key."

But the statute of limitations, the window federal prosecutors have to pursue any criminal charges against Loomis or the Saints, would only extend for five years after the date of such an offense, Emmick said.

If Loomis no longer had the ability to eavesdrop on opposing coaches after the 2004 season, he would be free from any potential criminal prosecution for a violation of the ECPA, Emmick said.

Loomis' alleged activity also would be a violation of Louisiana state law, according to Danny Onorato, a former assistant U.S. attorney now in private practice in Washington, D.C., where he specializes in white-collar crime. The statute of limitations for the law governing electronic eavesdropping in Louisiana is six years, Onorato said.

So at first, before Loomis was the GM, the device was to listen to their own coaches on game day.

Then, Loomis comes in as GM and has that device re-wired so he could hear OPPOSING teams' coaches. He even had it to where he could flip a toggle switch and therefore listen to the opposing team's coaches on offense...then flip the switch and hear the opposing team's defense coaches talk to each other. He intentionally made it to where he could hear the opposing team discuss strategy and play calls.

Then, Hurricane Katrina happens....and Loomis SUPPOSEDLY does away with it. Saints won their SB after Katrina, so I think IF they can prove the device was not used after 2005, they can shed arguments about taking their SB title away. But still, IF he did this...then he is a snake no matter what. To consciously re-wire so you can hear your foe's communications??? That's the lowest of lows.

These guys were ordering Nancy Kerrigan-type hits on opponents, and now they allegedly were listening in on opponent's communications.

Doppelganger
04-23-2012, 07:37 PM
The Saints became "America's Team" after Katrina as so many across the nation cheered for them. They are quickly losing all the goodwill they had built up.

CloakNNNdagger
04-24-2012, 08:34 AM
Sorry, boss. But I'm leaving the country and disappearing. Needed the money. I sold our technology to my favorite Saints awhile back.........and now the Feds are onto me. Tell #99 I love her.

http://ology.com/bundles/ologysocial/up/img/post/post_large/post_4f95bd690fb7b8.24522017.jpg

BullNation4Life
04-24-2012, 04:07 PM
Cripes, I think you are RIGHT!

From the same article:



So at first, before Loomis was the GM, the device was to listen to their own coaches on game day.

Then, Loomis comes in as GM and has that device re-wired so he could hear OPPOSING teams' coaches. He even had it to where he could flip a toggle switch and therefore listen to the opposing team's coaches on offense...then flip the switch and hear the opposing team's defense coaches talk to each other. He intentionally made it to where he could hear the opposing team discuss strategy and play calls.

Then, Hurricane Katrina happens....and Loomis SUPPOSEDLY does away with it. Saints won their SB after Katrina, so I think IF they can prove the device was not used after 2005, they can shed arguments about taking their SB title away. But still, IF he did this...then he is a snake no matter what. To consciously re-wire so you can hear your foe's communications??? That's the lowest of lows.

These guys were ordering Nancy Kerrigan-type hits on opponents, and now they allegedly were listening in on opponent's communications.

Do you really believe they "did away with it?" No way in hell did he do away with it. I bet, and just mere speculation, it was working so well, he had it re-wired after the renovations. Would not surprise me in the least to find out that their 2009 Super Bowl and all the INTs and turnovers they were getting was a result in this...

Desperate men do desperate things...Sean Peyton maybe be far better at coaching than Gary Kubiak and for years everybody asked how the Saints turned it around so quickly...I think we are now finding out how...

At least if/when the Texans when it all, they will do it legit and go to bed with a clear conscience

GP
04-24-2012, 04:18 PM
Do you really believe they "did away with it?" No way in hell did he do away with it. I bet, and just mere speculation, it was working so well, he had it re-wired after the renovations. Would not surprise me in the least to find out that their 2009 Super Bowl and all the INTs and turnovers they were getting was a result in this...

Desperate men do desperate things...Sean Peyton maybe be far better at coaching than Gary Kubiak and for years everybody asked how the Saints turned it around so quickly...I think we are now finding out how...

At least if/when the Texans when it all, they will do it legit and go to bed with a clear conscience

I agree with all of what you said.

How could the Saints jump Peyton Manning's pass in the SB so easily??? Oh it's easy: You know where the play is going.

How could the Saints know that the Colts special teams were not looking for the onside kick to start the second half of the SB vs. Colts??? Oh it's easy: The chatter in Loomis' headphone (and in OTHER Saints' staff's headphones, for that matter) said nothing of looking out for an onside kick.

Your decisions as a head coach--whether to tell your Cb to jump a route, or whether to tell your kicker to go for the onside kick--increase in success rate probability (the odds) IF you know a bit of inside information.

I think the ****-eating grin on Sean Payton's face...that Cheshire Grin he sported...it's not as much the result of great play and great coaching. It just might be that he had the room bugged and EVERYONE knew what to look for on every single freaking play.

Sure, an audible could be called at the line and screw stuff up for the Saints. Or, a player could just slip up and get burned even if he knew what was going on. But still, coaches could position players and could play formations knowing the odds were in their favor. If I am playing Madden video game against friend sitting next to me...and I can see the set of three play calls on his side of the screen that he's choosing from for his next play...I don't have to know the exact play call, I just have to look for what formation he comes out of the huddle with. Now I know if it's a run or pass. Simple.

Slimy bastards. IF they are guilty of it, which at this point perception of the Saints is that IF they did the bounty stuff...they were likely to do other slimy stuff too.

TheIronDuke
04-24-2012, 04:25 PM
I agree with all of what you said.

How could the Saints jump Peyton Manning's pass in the SB so easily??? Oh it's easy: You know where the play is going.

How could the Saints know that the Colts special teams were not looking for the onside kick to start the second half of the SB vs. Colts??? Oh it's easy: The chatter in Loomis' headphone (and in OTHER Saints' staff's headphones, for that matter) said nothing of looking out for an onside kick.

Your decisions as a head coach--whether to tell your Cb to jump a route, or whether to tell your kicker to go for the onside kick--increase in success rate probability (the odds) IF you know a bit of inside information.

I think the ****-eating grin on Sean Payton's face...that Cheshire Grin he sported...it's not as much the result of great play and great coaching. It just might be that he had the room bugged and EVERYONE knew what to look for on every single freaking play.

Sure, an audible could be called at the line and screw stuff up for the Saints. Or, a player could just slip up and get burned even if he knew what was going on. But still, coaches could position players and could play formations knowing the odds were in their favor. If I am playing Madden video game against friend sitting next to me...and I can see the set of three play calls on his side of the screen that he's choosing from for his next play...I don't have to know the exact play call, I just have to look for what formation he comes out of the huddle with. Now I know if it's a run or pass. Simple.

Slimy bastards. IF they are guilty of it, which at this point perception of the Saints is that IF they did the bounty stuff...they were likely to do other slimy stuff too.

I doubt that he had permission from Miami to wire the opponent's coaches radio frequency for the Super Bowl.

GP
04-24-2012, 04:37 PM
I doubt that he had permission from Miami to wire the opponent's coaches radio frequency for the Super Bowl.

I thought the SB was played in the Superdome??? Was it not?

Geez, that's really bad if I got that wrong. LOL.

TheIronDuke
04-24-2012, 04:39 PM
I thought the SB was played in the Superdome??? Was it not?

Geez, that's really bad if I got that wrong. LOL.

Nope, Miami.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XLIV

No team's ever won the SB in their own stadium IIRC.

GP
04-24-2012, 05:25 PM
Nope, Miami.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XLIV

No team's ever won the SB in their own stadium IIRC.

Well hell. For some reason I was thinking it was in the Superdome.

Dutchrudder
04-24-2012, 05:49 PM
Nope, Miami.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XLIV

No team's ever won the SB in their own stadium IIRC.

Take a step further, I don't think any team has played in a Super Bowl that was hosted by their stadium.

Hervoyel
04-24-2012, 05:51 PM
I just keep thinking that they sucked so bad for so long that eventually they became enormous cheaters willing to go to any length to win. I can't think of anything worse than being a Saints fan through all of this. You finally shake your pathetic history and win, then find out that your team had to resort to things like this in order to do it.

I think they need their paper bags back. If I was a Saints fan I'd pretty much be insisting on it.

Wolf
04-24-2012, 09:09 PM
NEW ORLEANS (AP) While state police and the FBI started a wiretapping probe into the Saints and general manager Mickey Loomis, assistant head coach Joe Vitt called allegations that Loomis' had his Superdome booth wired so he could listen to opposing coaches ''ludicrous.''


The alleged actions would violate NFL rules, if not state and federal laws.

Edmonson said he is aware that statutes of limitations - six years under state wiretapping laws - may hinder prosecution but added, ''Let's find out if any laws have been broken first, and that's what we're doing right now. It's up to us to find out facts and get with the district attorney, who will then decide'' if the time to prosecute has passed.

The statute of limitations for federal wiretapping crimes is generally five years.

''Where these allegations take us, we'll certainly go there,'' Edmonson said. ''Out of fairness to the people involved, let's find out if any of these allegations are factual.''

Under Louisiana law, the only law enforcement agency in Louisiana that can investigate wiretapping violations is the state police.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/state-police-probing-saints-alleged-172544197--nfl.html;_ylt=Ask.9h9rKqRdsTnxHz8Df3Y5nYcB

Corrosion
04-24-2012, 09:36 PM
I just keep thinking that they sucked so bad for so long that eventually they became enormous cheaters willing to go to any length to win. I can't think of anything worse than being a Saints fan through all of this. You finally shake your pathetic history and win, then find out that your team had to resort to things like this in order to do it.

I think they need their paper bags back. If I was a Saints fan I'd pretty much be insisting on it.

Yeah they were better off losing with their dignity in tact than all the bullsh!t they are going thru in the wake of winning while cheating.


If I were an Aints fan , I'd be happy to put the bag back on my head rather than being labled a bunch of cheaters.


Then again , like our govt , some people dont care how they win as long as they win ....


Cheaters suck

Dutchrudder
04-25-2012, 02:16 PM
http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/Sports/hurricanegoodell.gif

drunkcookie
04-26-2012, 11:22 AM
BTW, they posted records of 9-7, 8-8 & 8-8 in the seasons in question, if they had full knowledge of the opposing teams gameplan, that is some effort to be that poor whilst cheating.

It would be impossible to have "full" knowledge of what the opposing teams were going to do...for one you have audibles, where the audible is completely different from the play called..then sometimes the play called will give absolutely nothing to hint as to what is going to happen... But even if you're able to know what's going to happen only 15% of the time, that's better than the 0% you'd know otherwise...

I've been listening to a lot of the talk on radio about this and the hosts, guests and callers seem to feel there wouldn't be much of an advantage at all... Outside of injuries and general talk, they don't feel a GM could know enough to help his coach's out with what will happen... I believe they're wrong on this...

A.) It's not all coach-speak and code-talk regarding plays that you'd hear..some times you'd actually know what's going to happen right after the players are getting up from the previous play... For example: the previous play just ended and Kubiak wants to go to the right with a run, but wants a certain type of blocking scheme/whatev because he's seen something he can exploit... He calls up to some offensive coach in the booth, "coach i wanna run to the right, outside but i need that backside cleared quick gimme something.." the coach may respond "tiger alpha 26 blue rodeo slapyomomma"... But who cares? You know what play was requested...it's going outside to the right...

But even if all the GM hears is "tiger alpha 26 blue rodeo slapyomomma", all he needs to do is repeat it to one of the coaches, they'll understand the gist of what's planned: the running back (2) is getting the ball and heading toward the 6 gap!

These coding-like play calls are meant to be easily understood, not hard to understand for other coaches... You might not know what formation etc... tiger alpha refers to (yet), and you might not know exactly what type of play and blocking scheme blue rodeo slapyomomma is (yet), but you know who gets the ball and where it's going...

"tiger alpha 926 blue rodeo slap yo momma": play action to Foster (2), he'll take that invisible ball to the outside hip of the right tackle (6), Schaub's rolling out to his left (9 gap...boot leg)... 926...or it's a play-action reverse...

GP
04-26-2012, 12:15 PM
Over the course of the game, you can learn what formations and what tendency the play will be....if you were tuning into the headsets of the coaches up in the coach's box from the start of the game onward.

It's cheating to a HIGH degree. You're gaming the system. You're clocking the team just like in baseball when people steal signals from the catcher.

Teams would have to change signals and calls pretty regular if they know an opposing team is clocking them. In the case of the Saints, they were clocking every game for three years.

ALLEGEDLY.

Dutchrudder
04-26-2012, 02:28 PM
I've been listening to a lot of the talk on radio about this and the hosts, guests and callers seem to feel there wouldn't be much of an advantage at all... Outside of injuries and general talk, they don't feel a GM could know enough to help his coach's out with what will happen... I believe they're wrong on this..

....

Jesus... every single Saints fan has been trying to play off these scandals as if there is no advantage from what they were doing. It's really simple, if there is no advantage, THEN DON'T ****ING CHEAT!!1!@!@$#!$

Rey
04-26-2012, 02:55 PM
Honestly, I think if they did this it's MUCH worse than the spy gate thing.

If you are listening to other coaches talk during halftime you know what adjustments they are going to make. If they plan on running a certain kind of play or doing more of something you can make adjustments to counteract that.

If they were doing this it might explain why we looked so good against them before halftime this year only to get ran through in the second half.

drunkcookie
04-26-2012, 05:24 PM
Over the course of the game, you can learn what formations and what tendency the play will be....if you were tuning into the headsets of the coaches up in the coach's box from the start of the game onward.

It's cheating to a HIGH degree. You're gaming the system. You're clocking the team just like in baseball when people steal signals from the catcher.

Teams would have to change signals and calls pretty regular if they know an opposing team is clocking them. In the case of the Saints, they were clocking every game for three years.

ALLEGEDLY.

Yah... But sometimes you do not need to figure out over the course of the game, but can already know...

Example: the Texans play At Kansas City in the playoffs...the KC GM has the ability to evesdrop into all of the visiting headset cimmunications... Eric Winston anybody? He's got a wealth of info on the Texans O in his noggin...

But still, the main point is knowing if it's a run or pass, and if a run which side/gap... Your coaches would most likely be be able to figure it out if you repeated for them...

It'd be too much to demand/ask your coaches to learn what everything means just to be able to interpret everything when you read it to them, so forget learning all of that (unless the GM has one dude that serves only that purpose...possible i guess)...

Having the GM explain the formation, style of play and each route to be ran etc... would take too long, which is why plays are lumped into these crazy "tigeralpha116bluerodeopasture-party" style calls..

For example, in a play call you may have the phrase "17 counter trap"... That'd be too much to explain... "okay, running back you're carrying the ball to the seven gap...since it's a counter trap just step to your right, then cut back to the left and take the handoff... Left Tackle: block the guy on your outside, left gaurd: down block, center: down block, rip and reach if possible, right guard: pull to your left, cut up field first hole past the left guard and block the first guy in your way..no guy in your way? Go into the secondary and get one of those guys.. right tackle: more the same, 'cept you cut upfield first hole opposite side of the center... TE: do this...receiver: do that...ready? On 3! Break!"

Better off not confusing things.. "Is it a run? Yes? Which gap!" You're better off knowing where it's going then you were not even knowing if it was a pass or run! No need confusing things trying to know 100% of what's going to happen...