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Runner
04-10-2012, 12:29 PM
What is the net effect of Winston's loss? Is it probable that run blocking is worse? Is it probable that pass protection is better? Is the net effect a push, positive, or negative?

I'd like to discuss such things in terms of the team's on field performance this season. Believe it or not, I understand the financial considerations of the cap drove the move. As I said, I'd like to talk about the team the Texans field next year, but we will see where this thread goes.

FirstTexansFan
04-10-2012, 12:58 PM
I'll go with a positive, as I'm eternally optimistic about my team at this point of the year, check back with me in December... preferably before the 21st, as we'll all be dead after that :)

Runner
04-10-2012, 01:08 PM
I can't form a clear picture of the offense in my mind right now. The injuries to Schaub and Dre are very worrisome. Even if Schaub comes back healthy, I can't convince myself we will see the Andre Johnson of old this season. He was injured twice last year running in a straight line and untouched. Add that to the rather experimental surgery he had for his first injury and the passing game may not be there.

In that case, this team may be required to rely on the run even more. If they do, Winston's loss will hurt more.

On the other hand, a less than 100% or missing Schaub would seem to imply that pass protection is more important next year; I think they need to shore up the receiving for that to be true.

XI CMURDER IX
04-10-2012, 01:15 PM
You will see a lot less holding calls... That is what I know for sure!

Goldensilence
04-10-2012, 01:45 PM
I think Butler will be capable in replacing Winston. Possibly better in pass protection.

I am more concerned about getting good guard play right now.Can Wade Smith recover from a mediocre year? Is Caldwell capable of stepping up his game with more reps?

Dutchrudder
04-10-2012, 02:22 PM
Well, the Texans rushed to the right side heavily this year, more so than almost ever other team did (NYG tied, GB 40%). I don't think that was an accident, but rather by design because they got great push from Winston. He was a great runblocking RT, and the Texans used that to their advantage.

I think we will see a step back in our run production this year due to the downgrade on the right side, but it will likely be overtaken by increased passing. Last year we ran it a lot more than usual by about 100 more carries total.


Stats from FBO if anyone wants to look at it:

Total runs: 26% left, 41% mid, 33% right

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/Charts%20and%20Graphs/rushstats2011.jpg

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol


You will see a lot less holding calls... That is what I know for sure!

He had 5 holding calls last year, which was a lot for him as he only had 4 in the previous 5 years combined. Ryan Clady had 9 last year, should the Broncos cut him?

The Medic01
04-10-2012, 03:00 PM
Well, the Texans rushed to the right side heavily this year, more so than almost ever other team did (NYG tied, GB 40%). I don't think that was an accident, but rather by design because they got great push from Winston. He was a great runblocking RT, and the Texans used that to their advantage.

I think we will see a step back in our run production this year due to the downgrade on the right side, but it will likely be overtaken by increased passing. Last year we ran it a lot more than usual by about 100 more carries total.


Stats from FBO if anyone wants to look at it:

Total runs: 26% left, 41% mid, 33% right

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/Charts%20and%20Graphs/rushstats2011.jpg

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol




He had 5 holding calls last year, which was a lot for him as he only had 4 in the previous 5 years combined. Ryan Clady had 9 last year, should the Broncos cut him?

Am I in the minority thinking that our O-line will still be tops. Butler has impressed me when he played LT for Duane Brown and seeing his workout videos and working as hard as he can to be a great player. As for Caldwell he started all of 2010 Foster's best year so no worries for me there.

Rey
04-10-2012, 03:17 PM
I can't form a clear picture of the offense in my mind right now. The injuries to Schaub and Dre are very worrisome. Even if Schaub comes back healthy, I can't convince myself we will see the Andre Johnson of old this season.

Re Schaub: I have no idea what to expect there and I hope the team is either a) confident TJ Yates can play at a satisfactory or high level is Schaub can't -or- b) plan on finding a QB that can via the draft or -or- c) confident Schaub will return and be able to play at a functional level.

I really don't know what to expect there and I agree it's fuzzy right now.

Re Dre: I am more convinced that we need to take a WR early. You are 100% right. Dre needs some legit help and someone that can potentially be the #1 if he goes down.

XI CMURDER IX
04-10-2012, 03:54 PM
He had 5 holding calls last year, which was a lot for him as he only had 4 in the previous 5 years combined. Ryan Clady had 9 last year, should the Broncos cut him?

It was a joke. It just seemed like every time there was a holding call it always panned the camera straight to Eric Winston haha :brickwall:

Rey
04-10-2012, 05:04 PM
He should have had two more. Once when Schaub got killed by his man and the other when Yates was planted against the Falcons.

Wolf6151
04-10-2012, 05:09 PM
I'm a little concerned about the right side of our O-line. I think they'll start off the year a little rusty but by game 5 they'll be doing just fine. I think Butler will be better than Winston in pass blocking, but will be slightly weaker in run blocking. Again I expect Butler to be playing great by game 5 of the season. Caldwell looked bad last year when he sub'd for Brisiel but he was playing injured (ankle) at the time, I expect Caldwell to be just fine this year. I would like to see an OT taken in round 2, 3, or 4 of this years draft though as I'm not convinced that Newton will be anything more than a roster filler at this point.

Rey
04-10-2012, 05:34 PM
I think by this time next year we will look back and wonder what the fuss was about.

drs23
04-10-2012, 06:01 PM
I'll go with a positive, as I'm eternally optimistic about my team at this point of the year, check back with me in December... preferably before the 21st, as we'll all be dead after that :)

I thunk that was the 12th? Or is my calender FUBAR'D? :)

b0ng
04-10-2012, 06:07 PM
He should have had two more. Once when Schaub got killed by his man and the other when Yates was planted against the Falcons.
According to modern NFL lore holding is committed on every play.

CloakNNNdagger
04-10-2012, 07:21 PM
I'm a little concerned about the right side of our O-line. I think they'll start off the year a little rusty but by game 5 they'll be doing just fine. I think Butler will be better than Winston in pass blocking, but will be slightly weaker in run blocking. Again I expect Butler to be playing great by game 5 of the season. Caldwell looked bad last year when he sub'd for Brisiel but he was playing injured (ankle) at the time, I expect Caldwell to be just fine this year. I would like to see an OT taken in round 2, 3, or 4 of this years draft though as I'm not convinced that Newton will be anything more than a roster filler at this point.

Not just ONE high ankle sprain. He actually developed a high ankle sprain in the opposite ankle........and still played out the latter part of the season.......although, he would have more appropriately qualified for ADA status.:kitten:

Norg
04-10-2012, 07:41 PM
run blocking might take a litte dip on the right side since butler prob cant run has fast has winston

pass protection might be slighty better since i like butler on that better then winston at that

bottom line from what i see i not to worried about our right side of the line i think butler and one of the 5 guards we have now on the roster in terms of depth whoever wins the TC battle will fill in nicely

CloakNNNdagger
04-10-2012, 07:53 PM
For those nostalgic about Winston, I came across this piece (http://www.raiders.ninjagoro.com/2012/03/eric-winston-2011-season-week-4-steelers-run-blocking-lead/)about his play specifically in last year's Steeler's game.............and another one on the Raiders game. (http://www.raiders.ninjagoro.com/2012/03/eric-winston-2011-season-week-5-raiders-run-blocking-lead/)

A similar isolation pieces on Briesel is presented here (http://www.raiders.ninjagoro.com/2012/03/mike-brisiel-2011-week-4-v-steelers-run-blocking-playside/) and here (http://www.raiders.ninjagoro.com/2012/03/mike-brisiel-2011-week-3-v-saints-run-blocking-playside/)

You can actually find more pieces on Briesel and Winston on this site if you follow the link prompts at the top.


Be sure to watch the corresponding videos. It is great the way the videographer isolated him on each play making it easy to follow the particular action of interest. It would be neat to have some of our talented MB be able to present some videos this year using a similar format approach.

Norg
04-10-2012, 08:04 PM
after play 7 ive seen enough winston Gets beat to much ............... LOL

on one play he gets pushed back like 7 yards like nothing LOL causing the run play to be blown up

GP
04-10-2012, 10:11 PM
Pass pro will be more consistent, meaning the passing game will be more productive...which means the run game will work better because boots and other play-action stuff will be an easier thing for us to run on defenses.

We don't have ALL the film on every game. The Texans do. For all we know, they sat down and watched the film and felt like Winston was beyond bad...he might have been downright atrocious in their eyes. Not sure, but it's possible that the film they have was so disgusting to them...that they cut him rather than even try to keep him. Face it: He was ensconced in Houston as a quasi-celebrity on the radio...you don't want that guy, on our team, if he is getting his ass ridden every day about how he has to get better "or else!" A guy like that is a loose cannon if he thinks he's on the outs. The overall consensus could have been to just get him gone and move on. I dunno, I'm just sayin'....

The main point is that I think Texans coaches felt he was a liability in many ways, plus he was making too much money. So that means they think they have one or two guys already on the roster (Caldwell and S. Smith???) and they can maybe get a guy or two in the draft to solidify the right side of the line. Next man up, and all that jazz.

In summation:

1. Pass pro was lacking, Winston was sent packing.

2. Pass pro will be awesome, which means the run game will blossom.

3. Next man up, make me a Crown and 7-Up.

GP
04-10-2012, 10:17 PM
I know I re-hashed talking points from the other thread....

I just want it known--in THIS thread--that my opinion in this thread is that the run game works best if the pass game is consistently good. And the pass game cannot be consistently good unless pass pro is consistently good.

We are bleeding QBs here. They are dropping like flies. We STILL only have TJ Yates as of right now, and I think Kubiak's idea is that he's rolling the dice on Yates first and foremost...and that means he wants his o-line better at pass pro to compensate for the thin line being held at the QB position.

QB is THE biggest need, due to substantive injury to Schaub and the release of Leinart. I don't think we can afford a veteran deal for Delhomme again, either. So that means Kubiak is scouting college QBs like a mad man.

Y'all gonna crap your pants if he picks Kennum at #26. People be all like "OMG!" and stuff. Wouldn't THAT be bizarre! Uh huh. It would. But hey, Kubiak is letting his hair down...I wouldn't put it past him. I think he's legitimately scared of what 2012 might hold if pass pro doesn't get better and/or more QB injuries happen. TJ is it. Nobody behind him but Lisfranc Schaub.

IDEXAN
04-11-2012, 06:55 AM
I say we bring back Seth Wand ?

G27RR
04-11-2012, 08:43 AM
I get what you're saying about why they might pick a QB, but I don't think they would pick Keenum unless it was in the second half of the draft.

FirstTexansFan
04-11-2012, 11:38 AM
I thunk that was the 12th? Or is my calender FUBAR'D? :)

Dyslexia is a horrible disease :)

badboy
04-11-2012, 03:58 PM
I think Butler will be capable in replacing Winston. Possibly better in pass protection.

I am more concerned about getting good guard play right now.Can Wade Smith recover from a mediocre year? Is Caldwell capable of stepping up his game with more reps?I agree. Butler did well for Brown and should do as well as Winston. Now will he have to help Caldwell more that Winston helped Briesel? Also, CND's info on Caldwell's injuries should also allow Caldwell to play better imo. I think a better pass option than JJ or another better TE in 2 TE sets will make us an even more proficient offense. This draft should allow us to add better depth. I am more concerned about Schaub and RG than RT.

Texan_Bill
04-11-2012, 09:45 PM
Re: How will Winston's loss affect this season's on-field play


I dunno how it will effect the Texans, but I certainly hope it doesn't effect his involvement with Gary's foundation... Link: Gary J Lynn Foundation (http://www.thegaryjlynnfoundation.org/)

Eric Winston was, and I hope will continue to be in the future, be a huge contributor to the foundation!!

Lucky
04-11-2012, 11:11 PM
What is the net effect of Winston's loss? Is it probable that run blocking is worse? Is it probable that pass protection is better? Is the net effect a push, positive, or negative?
Winston is the superior run blocker. That said, Butler should be good enough to spring the best RB and best backup RB in the league. I think it's a push, at worst, in pass protection. Still, I would like to see the Texans bring in a blocking TE to help Butler with the speed rushers.

The most negative effect is in terms of depth. Winston never missed a start, so you weren't concerned with who was playing behind him. Butler has had medical/injury issues that have kept him off the field. And he's never been a regular starter. The Texans must find a competent backup to Butler (if they feel they don't already posses one in Derek Newton).

Jackie Chiles
04-12-2012, 04:27 PM
Well, the Texans rushed to the right side heavily this year, more so than almost ever other team did (NYG tied, GB 40%). I don't think that was an accident, but rather by design because they got great push from Winston. He was a great runblocking RT, and the Texans used that to their advantage.

I think we will see a step back in our run production this year due to the downgrade on the right side, but it will likely be overtaken by increased passing. Last year we ran it a lot more than usual by about 100 more carries total.


Stats from FBO if anyone wants to look at it:

Total runs: 26% left, 41% mid, 33% right

That is some interesting stuff, I saw Lance Zierlein had an article recently with slightly different numbers but still favoring runs to the right. I believe the O-line as a whole takes a step back this year and we see the numbers either even out or skew to the left a bit. Hopefully Duane becomes to the run game what he has become as a pass protector. I think its very possible that he does and that would go a long way to mitigating our losses.

NastyNate
04-13-2012, 11:09 AM
Butler filled in for Winston at the U when winston went down his senior year. They were just fine. Caldwell played all of 2010, when healthy he's a very capable RG.

Dutchrudder
04-13-2012, 03:52 PM
Hadn't thought of this until today, but the final game of the season against the Titans featured Caldwell, Austin and Newton quite a bit. After halftime, the line became: Brown - Smith - Austin - Caldwell/S. Smith - Winston/Newton (didn't see Butler in any of the plays)

So there is some tape out there of what it may look like next year. If anyone has a copy of that game, it may be worth it to check out the second half. I'll check TYT for it sometime this weekend. Granted having Myers at Center ought to make a big difference over Austin, we should still be able to evaluate the RG and RT play. I found a few clips of it on NFL.com that I'll link here. I'll try to explain some of these as best I can. (really wish they had slo-mo...)

1st quarter play, Tate runs for a 4 yard TD. LINK (http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d8259861d/RB-Tate-4-yd-run-TD) Oline is: Brown? - W Smith - Myers - Caldwell - Winston - Dreessen
I like this play because Caldwell really helps Tate punch it in the end zone. Caldwell chips Myers guy at the line and then proceeds to take a step forward and blocks the Titans LB Whitherspoon, which stands him up, Vickers comes in late to push him back too. Tate follows right behind and bashes through the other LB to get the TD. Good power by Caldwell to push back the LB and make room for Tate to run by.

This is a bad one for Caldwell LINK (http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d8259857f/Titans-defense-sack-5-yd-loss). Early 1st quarter, Caldwell is the RG, and Jurrell Casey runs right by him and sacks Yates. Iirc, this is the play that bruised Yates' shoulder. Titans bring 6 guys and Yates gets gobbled up by two of them. 99 (Casey) goes right of Caldwell, while 90 takes a step towards Winston, then stunts back to the other side of Caldwell. I'm not sure if there was a miscommunication between him and Winston or what, because he may have been trying to pass 99 off to Winston. Either way, he didn't block either guy, but Winston wasn't much help either.

2nd Q 6:35 to go, Delhomme is stripped of the ball, LINK (http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d82599024/Titans-defense-sack-9-yd-loss). Line is:
Brown - W Smith - Myers - Caldwell - Winston
Fwiw, Caldwell and Winston do a good job double teaming 1 guy at the line, but the other 4 guys get to Delhomme and force the turnover. Winston probably should have left the double team and blocked the outside guy, but Ward did try to pick him up. The sack/fumble should probably be credited against Wade Smith on this play. Brown tried to pass off the guy to Smith so he could block the outside rusher, but Smith was out of position to pick him up.


On this play: LINK (http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d8259b385/RB-Tate-56-yd-run) it looks like a run to the right tackle, but the line gets blown up at the snap and the Titans almost get Tate for a loss. Tate avoids the first tackle and then cuts back to the middle and runs for a 56 yard gain. Vickers made a good block on the left side to keep the lane open for him. I'm having trouble seeing the center's number, but I believe the line was setup like this:
Brown - Smith - Austin - Caldwell - Newton - Dreessen
In any case, it didn't look very good for Caldwell and Newton as they both get moved back at the snap.

4th quarter 3:48 to go, the whole o-line fails on this one, LINK (http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d8259c0a1/Titans-defense-sack-9-yd-loss). Line setup:
Gardner - W Smith - Austin - Caldwell - Winston
Wade Smith doesn't even try to block 99 Casey coming up the middle, Austin tries to pick him up but doesn't have the position to do so and gives him an open lane to the QB. Caldwell can't hold position to create space for Delhomme to step into the pocket to avoid the two pass rushers on the edge, so there were about 4 different ways he could be sacked on this play.

Not very encouraging overall, but Eric's poor pass protection makes me less concerned that he is gone. The lack of Butler makes me wonder if was playing or inactive for the game. Seems odd, maybe Newton will be the RT next year?

ChampionTexan
04-13-2012, 04:03 PM
Hadn't thought of this until today, but the final game of the season against the Titans featured Caldwell, Austin and Newton quite a bit. After halftime, the line became: Brown - Smith - Austin - Caldwell/S. Smith - Winston/Newton (didn't see Butler in any of the plays)

So there is some tape out there of what it may look like next year. If anyone has a copy of that game, it may be worth it to check out the second half. I'll check TYT for it sometime this weekend. Granted having Myers at Center ought to make a big difference over Austin, we should still be able to evaluate the RG and RT play. I found a few clips of it on NFL.com that I'll link here. I'll try to explain some of these as best I can. (really wish they had slo-mo...)

1st quarter play, Tate runs for a 4 yard TD. LINK (http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d8259861d/RB-Tate-4-yd-run-TD) Oline is: Brown? - W Smith - Myers - Caldwell - Winston - Dreessen
I like this play because Caldwell really helps Tate punch it in the end zone. Caldwell chips Myers guy at the line and then proceeds to take a step forward and blocks the Titans LB Whitherspoon, which stands him up, Vickers comes in late to push him back too. Tate follows right behind and bashes through the other LB to get the TD. Good power by Caldwell to push back the LB and make room for Tate to run by.

This is a bad one for Caldwell LINK (http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d8259857f/Titans-defense-sack-5-yd-loss). Early 1st quarter, Caldwell is the RG, and Jurrell Casey runs right by him and sacks Yates. Iirc, this is the play that bruised Yates' shoulder. Titans bring 6 guys and Yates gets gobbled up by two of them. 99 (Casey) goes right of Caldwell, while 90 takes a step towards Winston, then stunts back to the other side of Caldwell. I'm not sure if there was a miscommunication between him and Winston or what, because he may have been trying to pass 99 off to Winston. Either way, he didn't block either guy, but Winston wasn't much help either.

2nd Q 6:35 to go, Delhomme is stripped of the ball, LINK (http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d82599024/Titans-defense-sack-9-yd-loss). Line is:
Brown - W Smith - Myers - Caldwell - Winston
Fwiw, Caldwell and Winston do a good job double teaming 1 guy at the line, but the other 4 guys get to Delhomme and force the turnover. Winston probably should have left the double team and blocked the outside guy, but Ward did try to pick him up. The sack/fumble should probably be credited against Wade Smith on this play. Brown tried to pass off the guy to Smith so he could block the outside rusher, but Smith was out of position to pick him up.


On this play: LINK (http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d8259b385/RB-Tate-56-yd-run) it looks like a run to the right tackle, but the line gets blown up at the snap and the Titans almost get Tate for a loss. Tate avoids the first tackle and then cuts back to the middle and runs for a 56 yard gain. Vickers made a good block on the left side to keep the lane open for him. I'm having trouble seeing the center's number, but I believe the line was setup like this:
Brown - Smith - Austin - Caldwell - Newton - Dreessen
In any case, it didn't look very good for Caldwell and Newton as they both get moved back at the snap.

4th quarter 3:48 to go, the whole o-line fails on this one, LINK (http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d8259c0a1/Titans-defense-sack-9-yd-loss). Line setup:
Gardner - W Smith - Austin - Caldwell - Winston
Wade Smith doesn't even try to block 99 Casey coming up the middle, Austin tries to pick him up but doesn't have the position to do so and gives him an open lane to the QB. Caldwell can't hold position to create space for Delhomme to step into the pocket to avoid the two pass rushers on the edge, so there were about 4 different ways he could be sacked on this play.

Not very encouraging overall, but Eric's poor pass protection makes me less concerned that he is gone. The lack of Butler makes me wonder if was playing or inactive for the game. Seems odd, maybe Newton will be the RT next year?

I don't really agree with your premise. Butler went on IR after the second game of the season, and wasn't even an option, Caldwell was playing with two high ankle sprains, and as you mentioned, Myers wasn't in the middle. 40% of the line will flat out be different players, and another 20% could be a more effective player than he was at the time you referenced.

Additionally, continuity is a big deal for the O-line as has been mentioned numerous times, so even if the starting line is the 5 players currently expected, and even if everybody stays healthy (certainly not a given), the line you see in the first few games may not even give a good basis to evaluate how they'll look towards the middle and end of the year.

Dutchrudder
04-13-2012, 04:43 PM
I don't really agree with your premise. Butler went on IR after the second game of the season, and wasn't even an option, Caldwell was playing with two high ankle sprains, and as you mentioned, Myers wasn't in the middle. 40% of the line will flat out be different players, and another 20% could be a more effective player than he was at the time you referenced.

Additionally, continuity is a big deal for the O-line as has been mentioned numerous times, so even if the starting line is the 5 players currently expected, and even if everybody stays healthy (certainly not a given), the line you see in the first few games may not even give a good basis to evaluate how they'll look towards the middle and end of the year.

I forgot that Butler was IR'd, so that explains that.

I think this is a good game of reference for Caldwell at least. He played the entire game and in first half he played with Brown, W Smith, Myers and Winston. It's not like he played the whole game with backups, so we can see some differences in his ability with and without them. I saw him get blown up on a few of those plays, and I think it's important to watch, but I also see Wade Smith and Winston making mistakes too, and I pointed those out. We don't have much gametape on him from last year, so this is just one opportunity to see him in action.

IDEXAN
04-14-2012, 09:54 AM
I think one of the biggest things the Texans have going for them with Butler coming in is that it's his contract year (as it is with Caldwell) which means in addition to getting the opportunity to have the regular starter jobs handed to them and it theirs to lose, they have the tremendous additional incentive to leaverage their 2012 performances into a 2012-13 offseason monetary bonanza as free agents.
And I expect the Texans to draft no less than 2 offensive lineman besides other possible FA signings including undrafted rookie FAs. Big ops in Houston this fall for young, athletic Olineman who fit the ZBS to find a place on an NFL roster.