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gtexan02
04-05-2012, 10:30 AM
Woa. Glad he didn't come here....

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7778005/gregg-williams-told-new-orleans-saints-hurt-san-francisco-49ers-speech

On the day that members of the Saints' brass will have their appeals heard for their roles in New Orleans' bounty system, damning audio has been released of Gregg Williams, the man who orchestrated the program, instructing his players to injure San Francisco 49ers players in their wild-card playoff game last season.

Williams can be heard in the audio recording instructing his defensive players to injure quarterback Alex Smith, running back Frank Gore, tight end Vernon Davis and receivers Michael Crabtree and Kyle Williams.

According to Pamphilon, Gregg Williams pointed to his chin while telling his players to hit Niners quarterback Alex Smith "right there" and says "Remember me. I got the first one. I got the first one. Go get it. Go lay that m----------- out."

Williams uses one of his favorite slogans in the speech: "Kill the head and the body will die."

On Gore: "We've got to do everything in the world to make sure we kill Frank Gore's head. We want him running sideways. We want his head sideways."

On fullback Kendall Hunter: "Little 32, we're going to knock the f--- out of him."

On Smith: "Every single one of you, before you get off the pile, affect the head. Early, affect the head. Continue, touch and hit the head."

On Kyle Williams: "We need to find out in the first two series of the game, that little wide receiver, No. 10, about his concussion. We need to f------ put a lick on him right now. He needs to decide. He needs to f------ decide."

On Crabtree: "We need to decide whether Crabtree wants to be a fake-ass prima donna, or he wants to be a tough guy. We need to find out. He becomes human when we f------ take out that outside ACL."

On Davis: "We need to decide how many times we can bull rush and and we can f------ put Vernon Davis' ankles over the pile."

Section516
04-05-2012, 10:38 AM
If he does coach again...

Someones going to run into him Sean Peyton style.

Cept its going to be on purpose, hard as hell, and without punishment.

GP
04-05-2012, 10:44 AM
Any questions about if his indefinite suspension, if it was too harsh or what not...well, I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a solid 2 or 3-year ban. Maybe even a permanent ban.

This stuff he's saying...it's more than just a fiery pre game speech. He's directing, in very clear language, the players to hurt and target areas of other players. It goes against the spirit of the game.

Want to say "Go after the football, rip at his hands and get the football out. Pull and yank on the arms and pry the football out!" then I'm fine with that. But when you tell people to go after ACL's, ankles, and heads...that's horrific.

Cjeremy635
04-05-2012, 11:01 AM
Any questions about if his indefinite suspension, if it was too harsh or what not...well, I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a solid 2 or 3-year ban. Maybe even a permanent ban.

This stuff he's saying...it's more than just a fiery pre game speech. He's directing, in very clear language, the players to hurt and target areas of other players. It goes against the spirit of the game.

Want to say "Go after the football, rip at his hands and get the football out. Pull and yank on the arms and pry the football out!" then I'm fine with that. But when you tell people to go after ACL's, ankles, and heads...that's horrific.

I agree 100% man.

HOU-TEX
04-05-2012, 11:06 AM
What's an "outside ACL"? lol

RazorOye
04-05-2012, 11:14 AM
On Kyle Williams: "We need to find out in the first two series of the game, that little wide receiver, No. 10, about his concussion. We need to f------ put a lick on him right now. He needs to decide. He needs to f------ decide."

sounds a lot like what the Giants said, too - following their win in large part due to Williams's fumble

http://www.masslive.com/patriots/index.ssf/2012/01/kyle_williams_concussions_giants.html

After muffing one punt and fumbling a second in an overtime loss last weekend, San Francisco's Kyle Williams was subjected to an all-too-predictable barrage of Twitter hate and several death threats. Compared to that, what two members of the winning New York Giants recklessly boasted about after the game sounded almost tame.

Almost.

"The thing is, we knew he had four concussions, so that was our biggest thing, was to take him outta the game," said Jacquian Williams, who forced the second fumble, in overtime, to set up New York's game-winning field goal.

"He's had a lot of concussions," said Devin Thomas, who recovered both fumbles. "We were just like, 'We gotta put a hit on that guy.'" Later in the same interview, he told the Newark Star-Ledger that teammate and backup safety Tyler Sash "did a great job hitting him early and he looked kind of dazed when he got up. I feel like that made a difference and he coughed it up."

That the Giants targeted a vulnerable opponent like Kyle Williams hardly qualifies as news, nor even that they zeroed in on his head. Those tactics, despite all the attention advancing science has focused on the dangers of concussions, were part of football long before helmets became mandatory. More troubling, but hardly news, either, is the implication that it was part of the Giants' game plan, something that was discussed in the film room or a special-teams meeting among the players, with or without input of the blessing of the coaching staff. It wouldn't be the first time that happened, either.

No, the surprising thing is that Thomas and Jacquian Williams came right out and said it.

edit: just to clarify, I'm not condoning either. And I am glad that Williams is gone.

SheTexan
04-05-2012, 11:16 AM
AND some of you think Sean Payton is innocent?? That his sentence is to "harsh!!?" SURE, and the sun refuses to come up in the morning!!! That entire coaching staff should be penalized! There is no way in hell they didn't know what he was doing!!

Stemp
04-05-2012, 11:24 AM
What is the context of this? Was this the coach firing up his players before the game or was he game planning?

GP
04-05-2012, 11:44 AM
What is the context of this? Was this the coach firing up his players before the game or was he game planning?

It was a pre-game speech he made to the players the night before the playoff game vs. the 49ers.

He is directing them to target specific areas of certain players, in an attempt to take those players out of the game.

In my mind, there is a difference between a player deciding to do those things on his own (of his own accord) compared to a coach--an authority figure who has the power to bench you or promote you, etc.--directing a player to do those things.

I think we all know that players can do things on their own--you cannot control the person and his motives--but the idea that a "more mature" person, a coach in this situation, is provoking and encouraging such behavior is the focus of the punishments.

I can see how the Saints will argue that although Williams was "suggesting" that they target players and their specific injury-prone areas, there is no proof that any Saints defensive player did, indeed, try to do so on the field of play. To that extent, I think the Saints lawyers might be able to (a) get the players off the hook, and maybe even (b) get the draft pick punishment scaled back a bit, claiming that the team--the PLAYERS on the roster--should not be punished for the provoking nature of the coach(es).

I think Williams is screwed no matter what happens, and he knows it and everyone on God's green earth knows it, but there might be a way to scale back the other punishments if the Saints lawyers can say "Look, there's no way to prove that the players actually carried out the coach's wishes." To that extent, I think Goodell will need to seriously consider JUST punishing the coaches and the GM, as well as fining the team. I think that the punishments involving players and maybe even draft picks can be arguably scaled back.

But you know what? I think Goodell is so pissed off about this, especially with the way gobs of former players are suing the NFL for head injuries, that he's going to say "Eff you. Eff you ALL. The ruling stands, get the hell out of my office and I don't want to EVER see or hear of these sorts of things from any of you ever again." Goodell is no joke when it comes to penalizing ANYBODY. He is for real. Homie ain't playin'.

I'm just thinking there MIGHT be wiggle room, but won't be surprised if the punishments stand in their totality.

Rey
04-05-2012, 11:52 AM
He shouldn't be going after ankles and stuff...

And with how the rules are and what we know about concussions he should be preaching about head shots...

That's just dirty.


But I've heard some of that from coaches before. I've never heard one say go after an ACL or any shyt like that, but "knock them out", "bang him in the head", "punch him in the gut"...yeah....

Texn4life
04-05-2012, 11:56 AM
I'm torn on this...... On one hand I see a coach who's looking to inspire his players to play passionately and be physical. On the other hand, he's crossing the line when he talks about hitting players to physically injuure them. At one point in the youtube audio it shows where tells his players to hit Alex Smith in the chin, and that he has the first one (Meaning fine or bounty payment). He's basically laughing in the face of the NFL even after they were notified of the second investigation.

There's a very fine line in football between being physical and being dirty. Hell, sometimes being dirty isn't even a bad thing as long as its done within the rules. To be dirty though to the point where you're putting guys careers in jeopardy for your personal gratification is way too much. These guys have families and a shortened time to make as much money as possible to provide for them. The thought that a coach would intentionally tell players to go out and try to "injure" a guy sickens me. You want to make guys "hurt" anytime you're on defense because you want to inflict pain. But to purposely try to injure a guy is out of line.

GP
04-05-2012, 12:02 PM
What if players on a team got together and said, "OK, I got $5,000 for the guy on our team who takes out Sean Payton. Just roll through him when he's on the sideline and take out his knee."

I wonder if Sean Payton would care for that or not. What happened to him was an accident, but what if it had been ordered by an opposing team's coach or player(s)??? That's what the Saints were trying to accomplish: The specific, encouraged/provoked targeting of game-ending and even season-ending or career-ending injuries on opposing players. Makes me sick.

Gregg Williams, IMO, seems like he's a chicken schit guy. Goodell should ban him for life JUST to keep Gregg Williams off the sideline so that a player doesn't take him out some day. It's for Williams' own safety. When you live by the word, you die by that same sword. It's how it is.

MightyTExan
04-05-2012, 12:04 PM
http://www.kevinkrzyzanski.com/vo/cobra_kai.jpg

GP
04-05-2012, 12:23 PM
Fixed it for ya'.....

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t128/gpshafer_1976/williams.jpg

MightyTExan
04-05-2012, 12:37 PM
Awesome!

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to GP again."

Requesting permission to spread around the internet.

CloakNNNdagger
04-05-2012, 12:46 PM
http://i.qkme.me/3w6n.jpg*

*This has been a Saints PAID Public Announcement

Brisco_County
04-05-2012, 12:59 PM
Wait, you mean it's not okay to pay people to tear an ACL? I wonder what kind of a bonus Jarred Allen made from those consecutive hits to Schaub's knee.

The NFL must have had a plant inside the Saints locker room, which means this investigation has been going on for some time.

TimeKiller
04-05-2012, 01:05 PM
I thought he was giving out zombie advice...

Playing dirty is just a way to cover up a lack of talent. That goes from 4 year olds playing tackle basketball to grown men completely removing the spirit of competition out of professional sport. Everybody knows it.

I'd rather spend my time making my personnel perform better than drawing up bounty charts.

I think the Gooddell hate is pretty unwarranted. On one hand people want him to take care of players from the past and on the other, people don't want to see the commissioner punishing people for disrespecting the game, the league and themselves by injuring each other purposefully. Frankly, he's done Williams a monumental favor by limiting the suspension to "indefinitely" and not "completely and utterly"

G27RR
04-05-2012, 01:17 PM
I thought he was giving out zombie advice...

Playing dirty is just a way to cover up a lack of talent. That goes from 4 year olds playing tackle basketball to grown men completely removing the spirit of competition out of professional sport. Everybody knows it.

I'd rather spend my time making my personnel perform better than drawing up bounty charts.

I think the Gooddell hate is pretty unwarranted. On one hand people want him to take care of players from the past and on the other, people don't want to see the commissioner punishing people for disrespecting the game, the league and themselves by injuring each other purposefully. Frankly, he's done Williams a monumental favor by limiting the suspension to "indefinitely" and not "completely and utterly"

Good post TK. Nothing overly harsh at all about the penalties they've imposed so far. I also agree with your comments on why people play dirty.

RazorOye
04-05-2012, 01:31 PM
The NFL must have had a plant inside the Saints locker room

no - as an fyi

the source audio came from the work of Sean Pamphilon, a filmmaker/documentarian who'd worked on a Saints/Ricky Williams documentary for an ESPN 30-for-30 production

he crossed paths with Steve Gleason - former Saint and local hero (for his punt block on Dome re-opening) and current sufferer from ALS. He was making a documentary about the inspiring, courageous story of one of the most likeable Saints' in recent memory.

You can see his esteem for Gleason brandished on his twitter page:

https://twitter.com/#!/seanpamphilon

He was in the locker room while Greg gave this speech as a guest of Gleason's.

Apparently Gleason is supposed to be making a comment today, about expecting these tapes to remain private. At least one Saints beat writer apparently believes the Saints might've had knowledge of the leak and played a part in its orchestration #tinfoil. As part of a move to distance themselves from Williams who was specifically directed by Payton and Loomis to make sure that he wasn't up to his old tricks - and that he refused to comply in the speech he delievered (which Payton and Loomise were not present for, as Pamphilon also pointed out). From Schefter:

Sources close to Saints said Sean Payton and Mickey Loomis directed Gregg Williams to ensure no inappropriate conduct would occur.

And then there are some - like Jenkins - have already accused Pamphilon for taking advantage of Gleason.

Things only get increasingly bizarre.

This makes me wonder, though. This type of talk or sentiment isn't just Williams (although I don't doubt he might be the worst offender) - it's happening in other locker rooms. So do we bug or put plants in locker rooms all over the NFL? How is this going to be policed going forward?

Then there's the issue of intent and actual harm committed. In that 9ers game, the worst hit was suffered by Pierre Thomas - leading to his being taken off the field, not to return and a turnover at the SF goal line. AN important play for that game, no doubt. And the 49ers celebrated the injury at the time, just as the Giants celebrated the successful targeting of Kyle Williams.

And Pamphilon said about that game:

Pamphilon, who watched the Saints-49ers game from the New Orleans sidelines, said he doesn’t believe Williams’ speech translated into any actual harm to San Francisco players.

“I was two feet behind the Saints’ bench,” he said, “and it looked like they were trying to kill each other every play. But I’ve watched about 15 NFL games from the sidelines, and I didn’t see anything different in that game than I’ve seen in any other football game. To me, they’re all trying to separate guys from the ball and all trying to get big hits that land them on ‘SportsCenter’ – on every play.”

:backtolurking:

RazorOye
04-05-2012, 02:08 PM
one more contribution - I think this is a piece by the documentarian that's worth reading - from a link on another board and a Saints blogger I respect (over at moosedenied (http://www.moosedenied.com/)). It's long, yes. But it's also illuminating and explains why Pamphilon made the choice he did.

I think it's a pretty compelling read and worth your time. If you happen to be interested in this issue/era of safety and football.

He notes, significantly, something I've believed: this is more than the Saints. This is more than their locker room and their team. This is something that needsd focus league wide. Personally, I have no faith in current leadership that they really are concerned with this beyond symbolic gestures when things like profits and image and litigation are at stake.

It strikes me - even in seasons before this - hollow posturing.

And I think Bill Simmons has been knocking it out of the park in this regard on his twitter (https://twitter.com/#!/sportsguy33)

Anyway, here's Pamphilon's article (I'll also note that I think it's a shame that in the media frenzy, the source's words in this piece will be ignored. Why? Because it isn't a soundbite and calls into question the nature of the game. But do we want to ask or face those questions? I don't have faith that we do - no matter the team you root for):

Tru Dat (http://theusof.com/2012/04/tru-dat-gregg-williams-saints-audio-bountygate-pay-for-pain/)

some excerpts

re: the NFL taking care of its players

On this January 13th Saturday night before the playoff game with the San Francisco 49ers, I was filming for a few documentary projects I have been working on for the past two years. Steve is a small part of my USOF film because two of the main people profiled (NFLPA Executive Committee members Sean Morey and Scott Fujita) fought hard for him to ensure he wouldn’t get screwed by the disability system for former NFL players. Of which, a former player told me “you have to be paralyzed for them to give you disability.”

It’s a system so flawed that the NFL was called on the carpet in front of congress in 2009. At the time congresswoman Linda Sanchez (interviewed in the USOF) spoke of the NFL being like the tobacco industry, with absolutely no moral compass. Who is responsible for taking care of these men, she wondered.

re: Vilma's alleged bounty and his impressions of the man/player

If Jonathan Vilma ever paid a man $10,000 to hurt another man, I need a cancelled check or a verified cash payment by two witnesses. When I studied journalism at Boston University they taught us that we needed two impeccable sources if we were going to make public anything that could ruin a man’s reputation and put a tag of “criminal” or “thug” next to his name.

If the Jonathan Vilma I met did what whoever leaked this crap says he did, you could cut his jersey in tiny pieces, put it in a cereal bowl and feed it to me slowly, while selling it on pay-per-view. Call it intuition, if you will. But until I see proof that he did this, I rest secure in the fact that this man was raised correctly and doesn’t roll that way.

If I am wrong, put the milk in the bowl and throw Fireman Ed’s high school jock strap and replica 42 Jets jersey in, mix it well and give me a big spoon.

If I am right, spread that jersey around and give it to every media member who smeared his name without a shred of proof (beyond leaked information from 280 Park Avenue)

re: WIlliams lacking cajones

“We make no apologies for the way we play the game,” Williams said in a tone which suggested that he actually had the balls to put on a uniform and do the very things he was ordering his players to do, much less be on the receiving end of the blows he was ordering up.

I don’t have those balls.

You don’t have those balls.

And Gregg Williams most definitely does not have those balls.

It’s a cowards play to send someone off to do your malicious bidding. I’m sure many of his players would have told him this if they weren’t scared to lose their jobs or look like bitches in front of their teammates. Or if they weren’t 25 and couldn’t possibly have a fully developed perspective on life.

re: irresponsible journalism and NFL front office equivocation

And it’s comical that so many mainstream journalists kept asking players if it’s like this on their teams?

Seriously?

Who’s going to honestly answer a dumb ****ing question like that?

This is the same media who will tell you James Harrison is the second coming of Darth Vader, when this is the way he’s been taught the game his whole life. Instead the talking heads sit around blowing smoke, insisting they know what’s in Harrison’s head when he’s playing the game of football. Look at the replays of Harrison’s three fine-able hits against Cleveland Browns players, closely.

Watch the Colt McCoy hit and understand that Harrison could have put him six feet under if he put all his 6 feet 270 pounds into McCoy. Fact is, when a professional football player wants to hurt you and he has a clean shot, he runs right through your ass…check the tape. Harrison didn’t run through anyone on the hits he was fined for.

I asked McCoy’s teammate Scott Fujita, himself a linebacker, if Harrison’s hit on McCoy was illegal or “dirty.”

“No and No. Bang-bang play. Colt became a ball carrier and threw it at the last minute.”

re: Williams's cowardice

Did Gregg Williams ever consider on that January 13th night that a former player who played balls out– kicking fear’s ass on a weekly basis–was sitting, slumped in a wheelchair within earshot? Does he know that it’s a statistical likelihood that Steve Gleason’s ALS was as a result of head trauma from crashing into other football players at high speeds, since he was in the 8th grade? Gleason emphatically states he could have gotten ALS if he were an architect. The odds say that’s about eight times less likely than if he played football.

Did Gregg Williams ever see the eyes of these men whose heads he was calling for after they got their lights blown out as their limp bodies hit the turf?

Has he seen wives nurse their broken husbands, who hid their injuries as a badge of honor and for their career survival?

why he released it and what it might cost him - in personal and financial terms:

In the interest of full disclosure: If this story hadn’t broken and been made public, I would not have shared this it. I would not have compromised my personal relationships and risked damaging Steve Gleason’s relationship with the Saints. I would have crafted these words and sentiments for another forum, perhaps years down the road.

If it weren’t for the fact I feel deeply that parents of children playing football MUST pay attention to the influence of men who will sacrifice their kids for W’s, I would not have written this.

If it weren’t for the fact that a man of conviction and conscience, Scott Fujita has been publicly attached to this scandal on the day he brought his newborn daughter home from the hospital, I would not have written these truths. FYI, his name was leaked directly from the NFL offices to three HUGE sports journalists, one of which broke the “scoop.”

I’m not calling them out by name because nobody pays me to be an *******.

To date, there has been no evidence Scott Fujita ever paid a man money to hurt another man. The fact that he’s willing to admit paying for turnovers (fumbles, int’s, etc.) is cause for possible suspension. Seriously? If you met him, you would know he wouldn’t sacrifice his well-earned reputation of social activism and authentic charity work, while reveling in the destruction of another human being.

But every time his children google him, this stain (regardless of whether it is retracted) will follow him and he will have to explain that daddy really isn’t one of the bad guys.

In releasing this material, I have severely strained my relations with Michel and Steve Gleason, whom I sincerely love. They had no part in this material becoming public and I may have to find another producer to finish our film project. This was a film which made me have to learn to shoot my camera while crying. This is a film that guitarist Mike McCready from my favorite band, Pearl Jam has committed to doing the music for. No joke. It’s that deep. It’s that powerful. It’s that big of an opportunity potentially lost.

Some will call me releasing this audio for fame or money grab. True haters will call it exploitation.

On Williams's defensive autonomy from Payton and Loomis:

Sean Payton and Mickey Loomis have admitted to being complicit simply because they did not put a stop to it. There’s no denying it happened on their watch while they were in the building. But on January 13th–in a room far down the hall–they were nowhere to be seen. And I’ve had two player sources directly tell me that Gregg Williams would often boast of having a “**** you clause,” in his contract. This gave him total control of the defensive side of the ball. I guess the analogy would be like when Buddy Ryan was the defensive head coach of the Chicago Bears.

Williams insisted in that meeting, “We don’t apologize for the way we play football.”

But then it became public and that’s exactly what he did. And he threw his defense and the Saints franchise under the bus, in order to break his fall.

ChampionTexan
04-05-2012, 02:22 PM
Apparently Gleason is supposed to be making a comment today, about expecting these tapes to remain private. At least one Saints beat writer apparently believes the Saints might've had knowledge of the leak and played a part in its orchestration #tinfoil. As part of a move to distance themselves from Williams who was specifically directed by Payton and Loomis to make sure that he wasn't up to his old tricks - and that he refused to comply in the speech he delievered (which Payton and Loomise were not present for, as Pamphilon also pointed out)

I don't know that if it was or it wasn't "orchestrated" by the Saints, but given the fact that Williams going rogue seems to be at least a part of the argument Vitt (and maybe Payton) used in the appeal, I'm not sure I would characterize the suspicion as a tinfoil hat type of thing. Clearly everything else the writer asserted was proven by Vitt's attorney to be on target.

During the New Orleans Saints' 2012 playoff run Gregg Williams was going to get fired for his role in the team's "bounty" program and became a "rogue coach," Saints assistant coach Joe Vitt's attorney said Thursday, according to Newsday.

Vitt's attorney, David Cornwell, spoke to reporters outside the NFL's league offices in New York after Vitt met with commissioner Roger Goodell to appeal his six-game suspension. Cornwell said, via The New York Times, that Saints coach Sean Payton and general manager Mickey Loomis warned Williams to stop they "bounty" system after they were informed by the NFL that the league was investigating the team prior to their NFC Wild Card Game against the Detroit Lions.

LINK (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8281b86a/article/attorney-for-saints-joe-vitt-says-gregg-williams-went-rogue?module=HP11_headline_stack)

Playoffs
04-05-2012, 07:52 PM
Kyle William's father: I should never be in room with Gregg Williams (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2012/04/49ers-father-i-should-never-be-in-room-with-gregg-williams/1#.T34ubPCJeSo)

By Robert Klemko, USA TODAY

Kyle Williams, the 49ers receiver who was specifically targeted by the Saints and Gregg Williams for his history of concussions, has been mum on the topic, preferring to focus on the Niners.

His father, Chicago White Sox general manager Ken Williams, has spoken briefly on the Saints bounty program, and issued a final statement regarding his son and Gregg Williams' pay-for-pain program following today's news of a leaked recording detailing the Saints illicit plans in January.

Ken Williams says his son has too much fortitude to break his silence, wonders if the Saints crossed the line from competitiveness to criminality, and says it's best if he and Gregg Williams never meet.

The statement reads:

"As you have seen, Kyle Williams is a man's man and has shown himself more than capable of answering on his own behalf. He has definite feelings on the subject but has chosen to remain committed to providing all his answers to any questions on the field next season. Knowing this young man's intestinal fortitude, I doubt anyone will get him to waver from his position.

To answer the questions directed specifically to me, as a father first and foremost, I am glad to report Kyle's concussion tests have been extremely positive and we are grateful he is ready and anxious to get back to competition. Personally, suspension or not, it's probably best I'm never in a room with Gregg Williams and wonder if such an order crosses the line of the aggressive, competitive spirit we all know and love about the sport; and leans closer to a criminal act and therefore a litigious matter...

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2012/04/49ers-father-i-should-never-be-in-room-with-gregg-williams/1#.T34ubPCJeSo

Nawzer
04-05-2012, 08:33 PM
The stuff said in the clip honestly did not surprise me. I think this kind of talk happens frequently in NFL locker rooms. The simple fact is that injured players are targeted and it happens in every sport. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but if a player is well enough to play then they unfortunately will become targets. I feel terrible about some of the lesser known players who are just hanging on and they have to play injured. The other issue here is that I don't think Goodell or the NFL is really concerned about player safety and player well being. They are creating all these rules simply to protect themselves from potential lawsuits. I heard Jay Feely on ESPN today say that all player injury comp claims are outright rejected when they are first filed. The player then has to wait 2-3 years for the whole process to complete. If the NFL was concerned about player health, they would be proactive in their approach to taking care of their injured players and not denying everything and making them wait. Also, expanding the season to 2 more games is also going to cause more injuries which is contradictory to this whole safety movement that Goodell is pushing. Finally, what I heard in that Greg Williams clip was not surprising and I think this kind of thing is fairly common in this league. The league as I have complained in the past has become so much about the money and accounting that it's lost some of its spirit. I think we have forgotten a bit that this is a sport and a distraction from real life but things like this illustrates how real life is invading this sport.

Vinny
04-05-2012, 08:49 PM
The stuff said in the clip honestly did not surprise me. I think this kind of talk happens frequently in NFL locker rooms. The simple fact is that injured players are targeted and it happens in every sport. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but if a player is well enough to play then they unfortunately will become targets. I feel terrible about some of the lesser known players who are just hanging on and they have to play injured. The other issue here is that I don't think Goodell or the NFL is really concerned about player safety and player well being. They are creating all these rules simply to protect themselves from potential lawsuits. I heard Jay Feely on ESPN today say that all player injury comp claims are outright rejected when they are first filed. The player then has to wait 2-3 years for the whole process to complete. If the NFL was concerned about player health, they would be proactive in their approach to taking care of their injured players and not denying everything and making them wait. Also, expanding the season to 2 more games is also going to cause more injuries which is contradictory to this whole safety movement that Goodell is pushing. Finally, what I heard in that Greg Williams clip was not surprising and I think this kind of thing is fairly common in this league. The league as I have complained in the past has become so much about the money and accounting that it's lost some of its spirit. I think we have forgotten a bit that this is a sport and a distraction from real life but things like this illustrates how real life is invading this sport.
Seth Payne says otherwise. I think this kind of talk happens amongst the players but I don't think that it comes from management almost 100% of the time. Its one thing to discuss hammering a player with other players but once Management tells you to go out and injure players it becomes something much more insidious.


Seth Payne
‏ @iamsethpayne
Follow

Guys claiming Gregg Williams' behavior was normal in NFL are out of line. Played for 5 DC's and never heard anything remotely like that.

https://twitter.com/#!/iamsethpayne/status/187949007383969793

Nawzer
04-05-2012, 08:55 PM
Seth Payne says otherwise. I think this kind of talk happens amongst the players but I don't think that it comes from management almost 100% of the time. Its one thing to discuss hammering a player with other players but once Management tells you to go out and injure players it becomes something much more insidious.



https://twitter.com/#!/iamsethpayne/status/187949007383969793

I would like to believe that and perhaps the talk in the lockeroom isn't as bad as the one we heard in this clip, but the cynic in me thinks that these kinds of things happen.

Vinny
04-05-2012, 08:58 PM
I would like to believe that and perhaps the talk in the lockeroom isn't as bad as the one we heard in this clip, but the cynic in me thinks that these kinds of things happen.I don't think management is dumb enough to do this for the most part. There is just WAY too much player movement to let guys think that you are out to hurt their careers as a model of behavior for a NFL Franchise. The NFLPA would go nuts about the league trying to hurt their players. Most teams educate players about healthy living and taking care of your bodies. For a member of management to tell you to go out and jack with someone's career, health and livelyhood is just something I don't think happens...except for a few knuckleheads like Williams obviously.

Nawzer
04-05-2012, 09:25 PM
I don't think management is dumb enough to do this for the most part. There is just WAY too much player movement to let guys think that you are out to hurt their careers as a model of behavior for a NFL Franchise. The NFLPA would go nuts about the league trying to hurt their players. Most teams educate players about healthy living and taking care of your bodies. For a member of management to tell you to go out and jack with someone's career, health and livelyhood is just something I don't think happens...except for a few knuckleheads like Williams obviously.

Management may not be dumb enough to do this, but it did happen and if it happened once it more than likely happened in other places at different times. I do sincerely hope Williams was an exception rather than the rule.

GP
04-05-2012, 09:44 PM
Williams grew desperate. Period.

He reached too far into the suitcase of inspiration...and pulled out a big heaping handful of hate and ugliness. He resorted to a last-ditch-effort to try and get him and his defense over the top. Desperation does crazy things to you.

That part of him has always been there, lurking and waiting to get out. It wanted some walkin' around money.

He's suspended indefinitely because he has shown a history of not caring for the health of the NFL players. It would be the same as if he was working his defense out in a summer camp, and he worked them too hard and his guys got heat stroked.

It's disgusting to see the majority of the ESPN comments section being slammed by guys who are acting tough, with all the posts about how the league is weak now and Goodell is ruining the NFL. These guys are either Stifler type guys or they never played.

We had a Gregg Williams-type coach when I played junior high football, he was a real dick. He wanted you to quit. He took joy in robbing the "weak" from a chance to play, by virtue of ruining your life if you didn't toe the line with him on everything. This coach would make you run 200's (sprinting) right after lunch and laugh at you as you threw up...screaming that you better keep running and just roll with it. He was verbally obscene. He was physically abusive in ways I cannot describe.

I played through junior high (since he was the varsity coach and not technically "my" coach...yet) but then I never tried out in high school. I was asked to play LB my senior year, several coaches asked me to play LB. Nope. I wouldn't play for the head coach. It was a matter of principle for me. I would have LOVED to play. I l-o-v-e-d playing defense. I flattened people on special teams. But, I wasn't going to play for the man that I knew was off his effing rocker.

I know people here might think I'm a puss or whatever. But for me, there's just a limit. I wish we had a different coach back in my high school days because I would have been playing every Friday night. But it was Crazyville, IMO. The reward didn't outweigh the negatives involved.

Guys like Gregg Williams are out there. At all levels. You read the comments by Kyle Williams' father and you feel for the guy. His kid is a man, he's a player in the NFL, and some powder puff coach was actively provoking players to try and hurt him. I'd be pissed too.

infantrycak
04-05-2012, 10:08 PM
I heard Jay Feely on ESPN today say that all player injury comp claims are outright rejected when they are first filed. The player then has to wait 2-3 years for the whole process to complete.

Assuming he said it - and you believed that? What comp claim are you even talking about? Mario Williams didn't go someplace and file a "comp claim" when he got injured in week 5. What he did was collect a full paycheck for the rest of the season. Then as an uninjured player he got cut. If he had been injured they would have worked out an injury settlement as is commonly reported and happens all the time in the NFL within months. So I am curious about this 2-3 year period "all comp claims" have to go through after being rejected.

Marcus
04-06-2012, 11:40 AM
And yet . . .

And yet . . .

And yet . . .

Think back now. How many of you wanted Greg Williams to be the Texens DC?

:)

Texan_Bill
04-06-2012, 12:06 PM
What's an "outside ACL"? lol

It's the same as an inside ACL, only different. :ahhaha:

majestrate
04-06-2012, 01:29 PM
Sorry, there are more than a few long posts. Yes, targeting specific spots is bad, but did anyone else catch that he also wanted them to play dirty in the pile? I know that kind of crap happens anyway, but seriously, wtf is up with a coach encouraging it?

At first I thought lifetime ban would be too much, but now I can see it happening. Or at least a 3-5 year ban.

Honoring Earl 34
04-06-2012, 02:04 PM
Here's what I would like to see , Greg Williams RB vs Ray Lewis LB in Oklahoma drills ... 20 of them . He'll have Kyle Williams and Crabtree as the OL/DL with Alex Smith as the FB to slow Lewis down if they want to . Then he can coach again with a new light shed on the subject .

http://www.nflpassers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/gregg-williams.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hRciaoqu-wU/Tduz12DX2-I/AAAAAAAAFzI/8ySA5i9aHmE/s1600/Ray-Lewis.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1-Kn5-c1qw&feature=related

Double Barrel
04-06-2012, 03:24 PM
And yet . . .

And yet . . .

And yet . . .

Think back now. How many of you wanted Greg Williams to be the Texens DC?

:)

'eh, hindsight is 20/20.

How many defended David Carr?

How many wanted Reggie Bush?

How many wanted Vince Young?

:)

infantrycak
04-06-2012, 04:34 PM
'eh, hindsight is 20/20.

True (unfortunately only to a degree - not referring to you) as a general proposition. But the vitriol on this issue with accusations of McNair being cheap and Kubiak being stupid were insane. Even while Williams did little to improve the Saints D the crying was still deafening. What he did for the Saints even with his bounty system pales in comparison to Wade's transformation of the Texans D.

Honoring Earl 34
04-06-2012, 04:39 PM
True (unfortunately only to a degree - not referring to you) as a general proposition. But the vitriol on this issue with accusations of McNair being cheap and Kubiak being stupid were insane. Even while Williams did little to improve the Saints D the crying was still deafening. What he did for the Saints even with his bounty system pales in comparison to Wade's transformation of the Texans D.

I don't think he's as good of an Xs and Os guy as he's a dollar and cents guy .

Double Barrel
04-06-2012, 06:28 PM
True (unfortunately only to a degree - not referring to you) as a general proposition. But the vitriol on this issue with accusations of McNair being cheap and Kubiak being stupid were insane. Even while Williams did little to improve the Saints D the crying was still deafening. What he did for the Saints even with his bounty system pales in comparison to Wade's transformation of the Texans D.

True, but at the time (pre-2009 season), Williams was widely considered one of the best available DC's in the NFL.

And at the same time, the Texans had yet to even post a winning season.

Fans just wanted a proven coordinator instead of the FOG's that seemed to be given the position.

I never bought into the McNair is cheap thing, though. Inexperienced and a bit naive perhaps, but just putting the team in Houston after the NFL's requirements kinda' proved that he was not cheap from the beginning.

infantrycak
04-06-2012, 07:36 PM
True, but at the time (pre-2009 season), Williams was widely considered one of the best available DC's in the NFL.

And at the same time, the Texans had yet to even post a winning season.

Fans just wanted a proven coordinator instead of the FOG's that seemed to be given the position.

True but what I was getting at was (a) our FOG actually produced a better D than Williams and (b) people were still stating it was incredibly stupid not to have hired Williams. I certainly wouldn't have complained if Williams was hired at the time.

Imatexanfan
04-08-2012, 03:44 PM
Yawl all sound like a bunch of pansy ass females...look that's football deal with it. From now on no media allowed in the locker rooms none, that's how u coach IMO...

Prolly why they won't lemme coach no more :gun:

Wolf6151
04-10-2012, 01:57 AM
From reading the transcripts of that Gregg Williams pregame speech, I think Sean Peyton is very lucky he didn't get an indefinite suspension as well. He can't claim he didn't know anything about it, surely he was in the locker room for the pregame speech.

drs23
04-10-2012, 09:17 AM
From reading the transcripts of that Gregg Williams pregame speech, I think Sean Peyton is very lucky he didn't get an indefinite suspension as well. He can't claim he didn't know anything about it, surely he was in the locker room for the pregame speech.

I'm not so sure. In an interview I watched with the director who released the audio said Payton and Loomis were down the hall in another room. It was on the NFL channel IIRC.

Dutchrudder
04-10-2012, 10:43 AM
I'm not so sure. In an interview I watched with the director who released the audio said Payton and Loomis were down the hall in another room. It was on the NFL channel IIRC.

If Payton didn't know this was going on, but the entire defense and D coaches knew and openly talked about it like this, then Payton is the most out of the loop head coach ever to hold the job. There's just no way 30 different people keep this under wraps from the rest of the team. The golden boy Drew Brees probably knew about it and just ignored it.

drs23
04-10-2012, 12:50 PM
If Payton didn't know this was going on, but the entire defense and D coaches knew and openly talked about it like this, then Payton is the most out of the loop head coach ever to hold the job. There's just no way 30 different people keep this under wraps from the rest of the team. The golden boy Drew Brees probably knew about it and just ignored it.

I agree wholeheartedly. I didn't mean to infer that he didn't know what was going on during his watch. Just stating he wasn't present for the "Kill the head" speech. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

ChampionTexan
04-10-2012, 01:07 PM
If Payton didn't know this was going on, but the entire defense and D coaches knew and openly talked about it like this, then Payton is the most out of the loop head coach ever to hold the job. There's just no way 30 different people keep this under wraps from the rest of the team. The golden boy Drew Brees probably knew about it and just ignored it.

Don't forget this was prior to the last game that the Saints played this past season - and as such the last game that Williams coached for them.

Payton and Vitt have actually been trying to use it to their advantage by stating that Williams knew he was going to get fired, and as such went "rogue" in a "one final grand gesture" type of thing.

I'm not saying I believe it, but combined with the timing of the release of the audio of the speech, it does kind of highlight how willing the Payton and Vitt were to sacrifice Williams in what turned out to be a futile attempt to help out their own positions.

The1ApplePie
04-10-2012, 03:21 PM
Stink on ESPN came out and said it wasn't a big deal. A lot of coaches talk like that.

He pointed out that Alex Gibbs would have been killed by the media for the things he said.

Of course Alex Gibbs ran the classless Broncos zone-blocking scheme in his heyday. The one that encouraged players to injure opponents:kitten:

I still remember Igor Olshansky kicking a Bronco's lineman in the head after the Bronco went after his injured knee... on a QB kneel.

GP
04-10-2012, 10:38 PM
Stink is also a guy who loves reminiscing about pissing himself, regularly, during games. I don't think he cares much about protocol. LOL.

Lucky
05-22-2012, 11:21 PM
What Gregg Williams said made Wade Phillips "sick" (http://sportsradiointerviews.com/2012/05/22/wade-phillips-texans-greg-williams-audio/).

Wade Phillips joined KILT in Houston with Josh Innes and Rich Lord to discuss his desire to be a head coach in the NFL again, his initial thoughts on the the Greg Williams audio, his views on the New Orleans Saints Super Bowl victory after hearing the Greg Williams audio, the Williams audio not being commonplace in the NFL and Williams not being known for any type of bounty program in the past.

What were your first thoughts when you heard the Greg Williams audio?
ďWell I mean it made me sick. I just donít believe in that. Itís something completely against what I believe in. I knew it wasnít right certainly and I think thatís where you go.Ē

Do you believe what Greg Williams said in his speech is commonplace in the NFL? ďNo. Thatís what Iím saying. Iíve been around the NFL for 36 years. Weíve never talked about that and hurting another player.Ē

Did you ever know of Greg Williams doing this sort of stuff in the past?
ďNo it surprised me that that was happening and thatís why it surprised me because not a lot of people were or I donít think many people were doing anything like that, so that is why it is surprising.Ē

I assumed that Williams picked up on the "bounty" stuff as an assistant under Buddy Ryan here in Houston. But Wade was Ryan's DC for 3 years in Philly, and was shocked to hear what Williams said. I'm thinking now that Williams is a self-made screwball.

GP
05-23-2012, 12:52 AM
What Gregg Williams said made Wade Phillips "sick" (http://sportsradiointerviews.com/2012/05/22/wade-phillips-texans-greg-williams-audio/).


I assumed that Williams picked up on the "bounty" stuff as an assistant under Buddy Ryan here in Houston. But Wade was Ryan's DC for 3 years in Philly, and was shocked to hear what Williams said. I'm thinking now that Williams is a self-made screwball.

Wade is all over the map. He'd make a good politician.

drs23
05-23-2012, 01:13 AM
Wade is all over the map. He'd make a good politician.

Do tell...?

Lucky
05-23-2012, 07:11 AM
Wade is all over the map. He'd make a good politician.

Do tell...?
It's not often that GP is asked to elaborate.

GP
05-23-2012, 09:42 AM
It's not often that GP is asked to elaborate.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/20835962.jpg

Rey
05-23-2012, 10:15 AM
What Gregg Williams said made Wade Phillips "sick" (http://sportsradiointerviews.com/2012/05/22/wade-phillips-texans-greg-williams-audio/).


I assumed that Williams picked up on the "bounty" stuff as an assistant under Buddy Ryan here in Houston. But Wade was Ryan's DC for 3 years in Philly, and was shocked to hear what Williams said. I'm thinking now that Williams is a self-made screwball.

Or Wade is just trying to say the right thing.

eriadoc
05-23-2012, 10:34 AM
Or Wade is just trying to say the right thing.

I kind of get the feeling that if that were the case, he wouldn't go so far as the "made me sick" line. He'd just casually condemn it, talk about what a brutal game it is, and say it was over the line. Instead, he actually went out of his way to express disgust at the notion. Could be theater, but I seriously doubt it.

GP
05-23-2012, 10:38 AM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/20837842.jpg

Rey
05-23-2012, 10:48 AM
I kind of get the feeling that if that were the case, he wouldn't go so far as the "made me sick" line. He'd just casually condemn it, talk about what a brutal game it is, and say it was over the line. Instead, he actually went out of his way to express disgust at the notion. Could be theater, but I seriously doubt it.

I'm not making a claim either way.

That said, people aren't above getting overly animated or explicit when they are not being completely honest.

A simple "I didn't agree with it" doesn't make him any less credible.

drs23
05-23-2012, 08:38 PM
it's not often that gp is asked to elaborate.

:) :)