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CloakNNNdagger
04-03-2012, 10:26 AM
VY can now face the stage with renewed pride!

Claiborne gives birth to a four on the Wonderlic (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/03/claiborne-gives-birth-to-a-four-on-the-wonderlic/)

The NFL has kept the Wonderlic results under tighter wraps than usual this year. Or maybe the media has had enough other things to keep itself occupied.

Regardless, the first eye-opening score has leaked from the 2012 edition of the 50-question Wonderlic test. Per multiple league sources, LSU cornerback Morris Claiborne scored a four.

Yes. A four. Out of 50.

Six years ago, quarterback Vince Young initially got a six. Re-scoring of the test bumped it to a seven. A next-day Mulligan moved it to 13.

Finally, Young has someone at whom he can point and laugh.

The joke, however, continues to be on anyone who thinks that all college athletes are also students. Plenty of them aren’t. They’re minor-league football players who have no choice but to wait at least three years until they get a shot at joining the NFL.

How else can anyone explain a person who presumably has found a way to avoid failing out of college getting such a low score on a basic intelligence test?

And that gives rise to a more important question. What did LSU actually do to keep Claiborne from failing out of school?:chef:

Playoffs
04-03-2012, 10:28 AM
Man, they should either protect those scores or stop the testing. Not fair to the guys, imo.

Showtime100
04-03-2012, 10:33 AM
And that gives rise to a more important question. What did LSU actually do to keep Claiborne from failing out of school?

No kidding! He could have gone to Texas and almost doubled his score. :heh:

Hervoyel
04-03-2012, 12:13 PM
Man, they should either protect those scores or stop the testing. Not fair to the guys, imo.

I've got a better idea. They should make them all public. Maybe the impending threat of public humiliation might inspire some of these guys to attempt to learn something while they're in college.

brakos82
04-03-2012, 12:22 PM
:vincepalm:

infantrycak
04-03-2012, 12:41 PM
Statistically his and VY's scores are like they were trying to be a dumbass. He probably could have colored in A on every question in 30 seconds, not over-powered his one brain cell and gotten a higher score.

brakos82
04-03-2012, 12:46 PM
Statistically his and VY's scores are like they were trying to be a dumbass. He probably could have colored in A on every question in 30 seconds, not over-powered his one brain cell and gotten a higher score.

Well we've seen VY try to do smart things... his 6 looks legit to me. :kitten:

Errant Hothy
04-03-2012, 12:48 PM
My biggest concern when guys pull Wunderlics this low isn't their intellegence, it's their work ethic and desire. Any college player who's likely to go in the top half of the first round will be making their agent money. Copies of the Wunderlic are readily available, and agents in the past have clearly stated that they have prepped future players on the Wunderlic. Any of the patheticly low scores can just as easily be attributed to lack of work ehtic and prep as it can be attributed to intellegnce.

I argueed the same point when VY came out.

Rey
04-03-2012, 01:35 PM
My biggest concern when guys pull Wunderlics this low isn't their intellegence, it's their work ethic and desire. Any college player who's likely to go in the top half of the first round will be making their agent money. Copies of the Wunderlic are readily available, and agents in the past have clearly stated that they have prepped future players on the Wunderlic. Any of the patheticly low scores can just as easily be attributed to lack of work ehtic and prep as it can be attributed to intellegnce.

I argueed the same point when VY came out.

You make a good point.

Have to wonder if he has the mental capacity to over come adversity. VY obviously didn't.

Goldensilence
04-03-2012, 01:49 PM
My biggest concern when guys pull Wunderlics this low isn't their intellegence, it's their work ethic and desire. Any college player who's likely to go in the top half of the first round will be making their agent money. Copies of the Wunderlic are readily available, and agents in the past have clearly stated that they have prepped future players on the Wunderlic. Any of the patheticly low scores can just as easily be attributed to lack of work ehtic and prep as it can be attributed to intellegnce.

I argueed the same point when VY came out.

This.

I don't think Morris Claiborne is likely dumb as a rock, more likely did he really care is the bottom line. If I was measuring his IQ it would more be on what classes he took versus what kind of grades he got.

Guys like this know they are bound for the 1st round of the NFL draft, in the long run what is his Wunderlic score going to prevent or allow him to achieve in his mind?

Goatcheese
04-03-2012, 01:50 PM
This chick could have gotten a 5.

http://thechive.com/2012/03/19/womens-logic-redefining-thousands-of-years-of-science-video/

Come on bro!

Goldensilence
04-03-2012, 01:57 PM
You make a good point.

Have to wonder if he has the mental capacity to over come adversity. VY obviously didn't.

Guys like VY always have the physical tools to succeed in the NFL. Problem is through-out his college career he was able to use his physical skills to really dominate the game at each level without really having to learn the real fundamentals of the game. When he got to the pros the first year was more or less the same story, teams generally aren't used to such a mobile QB initially and the offense as a whole had lowered expectations and complexity in favor of getting him on the field ASAP in the end.

When it came to his second year that's where his real problems started. The offense got more complex, teams caught up to what he could do running the ball, and he didn't really dedicate himself to getting better as a QB fundamentally.

Right now its still not caught onto Vince that his athletic ability alone isn't going to carry him to success in the NFL. The flashes he has shown HIM enough that he can still carry on business as usual. He still has time to turn his NFL career into something, but it's looking less and less like he will "get it".

Doppelganger
04-03-2012, 02:01 PM
My biggest concern when guys pull Wunderlics this low isn't their intellegence, it's their work ethic and desire. Any college player who's likely to go in the top half of the first round will be making their agent money. Copies of the Wunderlic are readily available, and agents in the past have clearly stated that they have prepped future players on the Wunderlic. Any of the patheticly low scores can just as easily be attributed to lack of work ehtic and prep as it can be attributed to intellegnce.

I argueed the same point when VY came out.

His score would come out to roughly a 75 IQ, or Borderline Intellectual Functioning. I think that he is likely in the low Average range of Intelligence rather than BIF.

I agree with the notion of your post. If he is not willing to set aside time to prepare for a test he knows he will get, will he put forth the time to study game film and the playbook?

I think he is a great player, but I wouldn't touch him in the top 10.

TheIronDuke
04-03-2012, 02:17 PM
Dexter Manley probably could've done better.

HOU-TEX
04-03-2012, 02:19 PM
Apparently he has a learning disability.

When Claiborne came out of high school, the schools that recruited him knew he had a learning disability. I don’t know much about his disability other than it has to do with reading. Everyone I have talked to tells me that Claiborne has great character and is a great kid. He knows and understands his disability and uses all the resources that LSU has available to control it and to help him get by in the classroom. When it comes to football he puts in extra time to learn and understand his assignments and it is not a problem. Will he need reps? Probably, but no more than the usual rookie would need. In saying that, Claiborne’s test score was NOT a true indicator of his intelligence. He can and does learn.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/What-you-should-know-about-Claibornes-test-score.html

Texan_Bill
04-03-2012, 04:58 PM
Woww he dun gudder den me!

Signed,

Six

CloakNNNdagger
04-03-2012, 09:30 PM
Some information that put the "learning disability" explanation somewhat into question.

Bus Cook “in shock” about Claiborne test score (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/03/bus-cook-in-shock-about-claiborne-test-score/)

ESPN has confirmed our report that LSU cornerback Morris Claiborne scored a four (yes, four) on the 50-question Wonderlic test.

Adam Schefter of ESPN also has gotten a quote from Claiborne’s agent, Bus Cook.

“I haven’t heard a word about it,” Cook said of the score. “I haven’t talked to anybody about it. All I know is that [Claiborne] was from a complicated defensive system and he flourished in it. I’ve never seen any sort of deficiency in him. I’m sitting here in shock at what you’re telling me.

“And if it is true, how does that get out? I thought the Commissioner was going to put safeguards on this information and there would be severe discipline if it ever did get out. I don’t know if he scored a 4 or a 40. All I know is he’s a great kid, he’s smart, and I’ve been thoroughly impressed with everything about him.”

The truth is that Cook shouldn’t be in shock. With ample samples of the Wonderlic available, Cook and every agent worth his or her commission should know before the kid takes the test the neighborhood in which his score is expected to land.

Moreover, if the sudden assertion elsewhere that Claiborne has a learning disability is true (and that argument would tend to conflict with Cook’s comments), it becomes even more important for Cook to know about it and to take steps aimed at protecting his client from being put into a situation that will result in an unjust outcome.

And so, regardless of why or how Claiborne scored so low, Cook should have known it was coming, and Cook should have either tried to find a way to improve the score — or Cook should have advised Claiborne not to take the test.

That’s a point Dan Patrick has been making for a long time, and it’s a great one. Incoming rookies routinely decline to run the 40 or participate in certain drills. If there’s any concern that the score will be low, why not refuse to take the Wonderlic? The easy explanation for refusing would be that the player doesn’t believe the NFL will maintain the confidentiality of the score.
If the score doesn’t impact draft stock, then refusing to submit to the test shouldn’t matter, either.

The NFL can gnash its teeth all it wants about the fact that the information gets out. Regardless, the information will continue to get out. Everything relating to the draft gets out — whether it’s the Wonderlic scores or or stupid/funny things guy said during interviews or which guys failed drug tests at the Scouting Combine (there’s already one fairly high-profile name link to a failed February 2012 drug test).

Since a low Wonderlic score invariably is met with the argument that it won’t affect the player’s draft stock because the score doesn’t matter, the bigger question is why does the NFL keep using the Wonderlic test?

Maybe every player should refuse to take it until the NFL provides a compelling explanation for continuing to insist that they submit to a test that doesn’t say anything about their football ability, especially since the NFL can’t guarantee that the information won’t be disclosed. Maybe, in the end, that will prompt the NFL to quit using a test that apparently has no correlation to a guy’s ultimate performance.

bah007
04-03-2012, 09:47 PM
It's actually pretty common knowledge that Claiborne has a learning disability. I've been hearing about it since he came out of high school.

I would assume that the teams interested in him would know about it too. So it wouldn't hurt him to just take the test anyway. It would look worse if he just refused to take it.

The info about his score was probably leaked by a team hoping he will fall to them.

steelbtexan
04-03-2012, 09:52 PM
Learning disability or no, a 4 on the Wunderlich after 4 yrs of college = Mentally challenged> short bus to school.

After all the hard questions like what is the 9th month of the yr are really difficult.

I suffer from Dyslexia and have worked to overcome this problem most of my life. So I know it can be done, you just have to be willing to work very hard to learn how to deal with it.

This is why Claiborne would fall to the bottom of the 1st rd if I was a GM. It's not so much that he has a learning disability. It's the fact that he's not willing to put in the work to overcome his disability. BTW, they should publish all of the Wunderlich from the combine. Just like they publish the 40/vert/3-cone etc...results.

gg no re
04-03-2012, 09:57 PM
This is why Claiborne would fall to the bottom of the 1st rd if I was a GM. It's not so much that he has a learning disability. It's the fact that he's not willing to put in the work to overcome his disability.

There are rumors floating that towards the end of testing, his pencil broke, and instead of taking a new pencil offered to him, he just gave up. /shrug

LonerATO
04-03-2012, 10:16 PM
VY can now face the stage with renewed pride!

:chef:

http://images.starpulse.com/news/bloggers/640389/blog_images/thumbs-up.jpg

I think the answer is.

c
c
c
c
c
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Wolf
04-03-2012, 10:17 PM
Statistically his and VY's scores are like they were trying to be a dumbass. He probably could have colored in A on every question in 30 seconds, not over-powered his one brain cell and gotten a higher score.
This ^^^^^


Yep. They let you take a version of of.
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89983

BullBlitz
04-03-2012, 10:19 PM
I have seen the statistics on median Scores on the test by position. The lowest scores tend to be generated by CBs, RBs and WRs. The highest scores tend to come from QBs and centers.

Claiborne falls in the absolute worst group. VY was an exception, being an unintelligent QB, which probably explains his lack of success in the NFL.

Goldensilence
04-03-2012, 10:30 PM
I have seen the statistics on median Scores on the test by position. The lowest scores tend to be generated by CBs, RBs and WRs. The highest scores tend to come from QBs and centers.

Claiborne falls in the absolute worst group. VY was an exception, being an unintelligent QB, which probably explains his lack of success in the NFL.

I think there's a lot more to VY's lack of success.

Learning disability or no, a 4 on the Wunderlich after 4 yrs of college = Mentally challenged> short bus to school.

After all the hard questions like what is the 9th month of the yr are really difficult.

I suffer from Dyslexia and have worked to overcome this problem most of my life. So I know it can be done, you just have to be willing to work very hard to learn how to deal with it.

This is why Claiborne would fall to the bottom of the 1st rd if I was a GM. It's not so much that he has a learning disability. It's the fact that he's not willing to put in the work to overcome his disability. BTW, they should publish all of the Wunderlich from the combine. Just like they publish the 40/vert/3-cone etc...results.

So you wouldn't even factor in what his GPA is? Or it compared to what classes he's taking?

Or even this:

2011 Thorpe Award Recipient
2011 Consensus First-Team All-America (AFCA Coaches', AP, FWAA, Sporting News, Walter Camp, ESPN.com, Rivals.com, CBSsports.com, FoxSportsNext.com, SI.com)
2011 Southeastern Conference Defensive Player of the Year (Coaches)
2011 First-Team All-SEC (AP, Coaches)
2011 Nagurski Award Finalist
2011 Walter Camp National Defensive Player of the Week (vs. Miss. State)
2010 Second-Team All-SEC (AP, Coaches)

Right. 4 on the Wunderlic. He's going to be an NFL bust :kitten:

Lucky
04-03-2012, 10:44 PM
Statistically his and VY's scores are like they were trying to be a dumbass. He probably could have colored in A on every question in 30 seconds, not over-powered his one brain cell and gotten a higher score.
I don't know how the test is scored. But, I took tests in college where you would get a negative on a missed multiple choice question. If you didn't know the answer, you couldn't just luck into it. Is it possible the Wonderlic is scored in a similar fashion?

If I were a NFL GM/Head Coach, the low score would have zero effect on my decision to draft a player. If the player had success in college and I was comfortable with him in the interview, I would take him. I'm paying him to play football. Not take tests.

The interview would seem to be very important in getting to know what a player is about. Which makes me wonder why Smithiak chose not to bring in top prospects for interviews. Yes, they talk to them for a limited time at the combine. Maybe they take them to dinner at their pro day. But, I would think they would want to know as much as possible about the personality of the player. Casserly and Kubiak brought Mario, Bush, and Vince Young in for pre-draft visits in 2006. I think those visits helped make the decision to go with Williams. Why did that change?

steelbtexan
04-03-2012, 10:45 PM
I think there's a lot more to VY's lack of success.



So you wouldn't even factor in what his GPA is? Or it compared to what classes he's taking?

Or even this:

2011 Thorpe Award Recipient
2011 Consensus First-Team All-America (AFCA Coaches', AP, FWAA, Sporting News, Walter Camp, ESPN.com, Rivals.com, CBSsports.com, FoxSportsNext.com, SI.com)
2011 Southeastern Conference Defensive Player of the Year (Coaches)
2011 First-Team All-SEC (AP, Coaches)
2011 Nagurski Award Finalist
2011 Walter Camp National Defensive Player of the Week (vs. Miss. State)
2010 Second-Team All-SEC (AP, Coaches)

Right. 4 on the Wunderlic. He's going to be an NFL bust :kitten:

Didn't say he was going to be a bust.

If I was a GM I would drop him because I want a team of players that can look adversity in the eye and are willing to do whatever it takes to overcome it. Claiborne is lacking in this dept. (see Wunderlich, unable to put in the work to overcome his learning disabilities.)

If he dropped to 15/30 I would gamble on him. The same as I would Janoris Jenkins.

Doppelganger
04-03-2012, 11:22 PM
Learning disability or no, a 4 on the Wunderlich after 4 yrs of college = Mentally challenged> short bus to school.

After all the hard questions like what is the 9th month of the yr are really difficult.

I suffer from Dyslexia and have worked to overcome this problem most of my life. So I know it can be done, you just have to be willing to work very hard to learn how to deal with it.

This is why Claiborne would fall to the bottom of the 1st rd if I was a GM. It's not so much that he has a learning disability. It's the fact that he's not willing to put in the work to overcome his disability. BTW, they should publish all of the Wunderlich from the combine. Just like they publish the 40/vert/3-cone etc...results.

If he truly has a learning disability, and had documentation, he could have requested accomodations consistent with his ld. Of course he would have needed to request this well ahead of time and had proper documentation. That again speaks to being prepared and going the extra mile.

Now, if he had accommodations and still scored that low, that says a lot.

Doppelganger
04-03-2012, 11:32 PM
I don't know how the test is scored. But, I took tests in college where you would get a negative on a missed multiple choice question. If you didn't know the answer, you couldn't just luck into it. Is it possible the Wonderlic is scored in a similar fashion?

If I were a NFL GM/Head Coach, the low score would have zero effect on my decision to draft a player. If the player had success in college and I was comfortable with him in the interview, I would take him. I'm paying him to play football. Not take tests.

The interview would seem to be very important in getting to know what a player is about. Which makes me wonder why Smithiak chose not to bring in top prospects for interviews. Yes, they talk to them for a limited time at the combine. Maybe they take them to dinner at their pro day. But, I would think
they would want to know as much as possible about the personality of the player. Casserly and Kubiak brought Mario, Bush, and Vince Young in for pre-
draft visits in 2006. I think those visits helped make the decision to go with Williams. Why did that change?

I gotta disagree. The wonderlic is like the drug test. Everyone knows you will get both at the combine. Both of them are excellent tests of judgment. Knowing you have a drug test at the combine, are you mature enough, not to smoke any marijuana or do any drugs prior to testing? You know when the test will be, so it's a question of judgment. The wonderlic is also a test of judgement. You know you will get the test. There are tons of places where you can take the test multiple times and increase your score by as much as 20 points. Knowing there are these services available, why wouldn't you take it? Choosing not to put din the work to raise a wonderlic, may be a judgement as well as a test of dedication to the classroom side of football. If you are not wiling to put in the time to study for the wonderlic, perhaps you won't put the time into film study and learning complex NFL play books.

Lucky
04-03-2012, 11:45 PM
I gotta disagree. The wonderlic is like the drug test.
No, it's not like a drug test. You may have player who has a limited ceiling on math and word problems. That has little to do with the schematics of a NFL playbook. Some guys just aren't going to score well on these. And where is the coorelation between the Wonderlic and NFL success. You say Vince Young, and I'll come back with Dan Marino.

Failing a drug test means you were on drugs before going into the biggest job interview you'll ever have. It means you are screwup. A bigtime screwup. Bombing the Wonderlic does not mean you are a screwup.

infantrycak
04-04-2012, 12:03 AM
I don't know how the test is scored. But, I took tests in college where you would get a negative on a missed multiple choice question. If you didn't know the answer, you couldn't just luck into it. Is it possible the Wonderlic is scored in a similar fashion?

I could be wrong but I believe it is a 50 question test straight up graded on how many you get correct in like 12 or 15 minutes. So there is a speed element involved but I don't believe there is a wrong answer scoring factor, well other than just not getting credit for the question.

CloakNNNdagger
04-04-2012, 12:09 AM
I don't know how the test is scored. But, I took tests in college where you would get a negative on a missed multiple choice question. If you didn't know the answer, you couldn't just luck into it. Is it possible the Wonderlic is scored in a similar fashion?

Lucky, with the Wunderlic this is not the case.

The Wonderlic intelligence test sets itself apart from other IQ tests in several key factors, including a quick test time (to prevent fatigue in an individual, resulting in a lower than accurate score), and a lack of negative scoring (to prevent test anxiety). What this means to you is that the Wonderlic intelligence test is quick, painless, and easy. link (http://www.personality-and-aptitude-career-tests.com/wonderlic-intelligence-test.html)

ArlingtonTexan
04-04-2012, 12:28 AM
I could be wrong but I believe it is a 50 question test straight up graded on how many you get correct in like 12 or 15 minutes. So there is a speed element involved but I don't believe there is a wrong answer scoring factor, well other than just not getting credit for the question.

12 minutes 50 questions. My my wife took this on a job interview (UH liberal arts grad, average math person) and made a 40 and says the test is easy assuming a person does not have test anxiety and can read the questions quickly and accurately.

There are some mini tests that have floated around this message board with sample questions and conversion chart of what your score would be. I took one tipsy late one night and made the equivalent of 35.

On the broader issue of learning disabilities. Most semesters I have a student or two who has a non-obvious learning disability. Ususally, this guy/girl does not do well in fast paced timed assignements. The guy this semester does well in out of class work, but if I put a question on the board and ask the class to write on it for ten minutes he barely gets through 3 or 4 simple sentences when at least half of the class writes a full page with complex thoughts. He is an engaging kid to have a conversation but my gues is that he would not do well on a Wunderlic either.

Rey
04-04-2012, 12:32 AM
I could be wrong but I believe it is a 50 question test straight up graded on how many you get correct in like 12 or 15 minutes. So there is a speed element involved but I don't believe there is a wrong answer scoring factor, well other than just not getting credit for the question.

Right.

I know they have wunderlichs online. Has anyone actually taken one anywhere?

I'm not the smartest guy ever but the wunderlich is not something you should score a four on if you've had any college at all. That's pretty damn bad.

ArlingtonTexan
04-04-2012, 12:33 AM
Lucky, with the Wunderlic this is not the case.

link (http://www.personality-and-aptitude-career-tests.com/wonderlic-intelligence-test.html)

The only thing I will dispute is the people I have encountered with test anxiety won't truly process that there is no downside. This is purely my experience and nothing that I have done any even haphazard research.

Edit: I lied, Howard Gardner has done work on the concept of multiple intelligences. IQ tests measure only certain things largely problem solving, math and a portion of language skills. An NFL CB does not need to strong in those for the most part, but other intelligences such kinetic function and spatial understanding that IQ tests don't measure at all (or relatively little) are vital to his performance.

eriadoc
04-04-2012, 02:28 AM
I'd say problem solving and pattern recognition are pretty damn important for an NFL QB. We have, after all, witnessed a QB that could never figure out or solve the Cover 2.

Wolf6151
04-04-2012, 02:31 AM
The thing I dislike the most about guys like this is that a free college education was given to him because he could run fast and he obviously wasted that college education. There are lots of folks who never got the opportunity to go to college because they simply couldn't afford it. Those people probably would have really appreciated and used that free education.

Maybe LSU will now lower tuition and fees because an education from their obviously isn't worth much.

Wolf
04-04-2012, 05:20 AM
Right.

I know they have wunderlichs online. Has anyone actually taken one anywhere?

I'm not the smartest guy ever but the wunderlich is not something you should score a four on if you've had any college at all. That's pretty damn bad.

How do you compare to your favorite players? Take “The Wonderlic” and find out! (http://www.wonderlic.com/take-the-wonderlic)

The Pass…

For the first time in Wonderlic history, we are providing football fans with the opportunity to take a real Wonderlic test!

The Wonderlic test measures learning and problem solving ability, helping teams determine if a potential player has the skills to learn the playbook and make decisions – both of which are critical on the field.

The Catch…

We need your help! We are developing a brand new basic skills test and need research participants. Before taking The Wonderlic, we ask that you first take the research test. This assessment of math and English skills takes approximately 40 minutes to complete.

The Score…

After completing the research test, you will be able to take The Wonderlic. This online version is similar to the paper version used for assessing athletes seeking to play professional football.

Your Wonderlic score will be emailed to you within two business days, along with an analysis of what position your score most coincides with based on the average reported scores.

Remember, you must complete the entire testing session for Wonderlic to be able to send you your score. Make sure you have enough time to finish the test before you start. If you don’t have time now, you can return to this page and begin testing at a later time.

Share your score with your football friends – and don’t forget to share the link so they can take The Wonderlic, too! (http://www.wonderlic.com/take-the-wonderlic) <--- click for link

TT link of a thread
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1904500

El Tejano
04-04-2012, 08:01 AM
Good. I hope this Wonderlic score helps him drop to #26. We need a good CB, not a test taker. We got a pretty damn good professional (Jonathan Joseph) who can help him learn the defense which is all we need him to know.

Goldensilence
04-04-2012, 09:03 AM
Didn't say he was going to be a bust.

If I was a GM I would drop him because I want a team of players that can look adversity in the eye and are willing to do whatever it takes to overcome it. Claiborne is lacking in this dept. (see Wunderlich, unable to put in the work to overcome his learning disabilities.)

If he dropped to 15/30 I would gamble on him. The same as I would Janoris Jenkins.

I guess I just think its quite a knee-jerk reaction and makes a lot of assumptions to hold this kind of view. But hey, it's all yours.

steelbtexan
04-04-2012, 09:13 AM
4 yrs in college and scores a 4 on the Wunderlich = LOL

How the he** did he stay eligible to play?

Doppelganger
04-04-2012, 09:52 AM
No, it's not like a drug test. You may have player who has a limited ceiling on math and word problems. That has little to do with the schematics of a NFL playbook. Some guys just aren't going to score well on these. And where is the coorelation between the Wonderlic and NFL success. You say Vince Young, and I'll come back with Dan Marino.

Failing a drug test means you were on drugs before going into the biggest job interview you'll ever have. It means you are screwup. A bigtime screwup. Bombing the Wonderlic does not mean you are a screwup.

Both of these tests are judgment based. Every player at the combine KNOWS they will get both of them. No surprises there.

1. Drug test. Do you choose to use drugs before the biggest interview of you life? Uses drugs presents a serious judgment question or a lack of maturity.

2. Wonderlic. Don't look at the score as an estimate of intelligence. Instead of think of it as a test of tenacity and hard work. There are numerous versions of the test floating around and good agents will have their players taking multiple versions of the test for weeks prior to the real one. It's just like playing football. You don't just go out and take the test, you practice, you drill, you see patterns in the types of questions presented. Then at the combine, you go in well practiced and take the test. The wonderlic now is a test of dedication. Were you willing to put in the time in the classroom to study and prepare for the test? If not, perhaps you will not treat game viewing seriously. Maybe you won't be focused enough during team meetings. Maybe you won't study your playbook.

Doppelganger
04-04-2012, 09:56 AM
I'd say problem solving and pattern recognition are pretty damn important for an NFL QB. We have, after all, witnessed a QB that could never figure out or solve the Cover 2.

And this may suggest he should solely be a man corner. Tell him to stick to his man and let him be. He may not be as good in zone or systems which require passing off receivers at various levels of the field.

IDEXAN
04-04-2012, 10:15 AM
I have seen the statistics on median Scores on the test by position. The lowest scores tend to be generated by CBs, RBs and WRs. The highest scores tend to come from QBs and centers.

And isn't there a correlation between those positions and race and, oh wait, can't go there.

steelbtexan
04-04-2012, 10:21 AM
And isn't there a correlation between those positions and race and, oh wait, can't go there.

Race positions,

Are you a NASCAR fan?

LOL

Goldensilence
04-04-2012, 10:32 AM
Well, do you have a transcript of his classes? His overall GPA? Maybe a few letters of recommendation would satisfy you he isn't dumb as rocks.

I really don't see the real relevance of the Wunderlich test for a NFL prospect. Are you really going to chose a guy with less physical measureables, not an all-american at his position, and who might have more character concerns over a guy who has higher Wunderlich score? Please.

What I would be more concerned about right now....does he have a history of off the field concerns?

IDEXAN
04-04-2012, 10:34 AM
Are you a NASCAR fan?

Don't know, never seen him play - what's his position ?

Stemp
04-04-2012, 10:42 AM
The kid has a very difficult time reading and did ending up doing well in his classes using alternative learning and testing methods.

If being able to read a few sentences takes a few minutes, those 12 testing minutes will fly by and you won't get to answer very many questions.

Amazing how some people on here insist on mocking a guy whom everyone on the NFL knew has a hard time with reading and written tests. I heard on the radio that agents of players with learning and testing disabilities we start telling them to decline taking the Wonderlic, same as guys who decline to throw or run at the combines.

brakos82
04-04-2012, 12:11 PM
Don't know, never seen him play - what's his position ?

Outside the top 10. :ahhaha:

Doppelganger
04-04-2012, 01:41 PM
Well, do you have a transcript of his classes? His overall GPA? Maybe a few letters of recommendation would satisfy you he isn't dumb as rocks.

I really don't see the real relevance of the Wunderlich test for a NFL prospect. Are you really going to chose a guy with less physical measureables, not an all-american at his position, and who might have more character concerns over a guy who has higher Wunderlich score? Please.

What I would be more concerned about right now....does he have a history of off the field concerns?



2. Wonderlic. Don't look at the score as an estimate of intelligence. Instead of think of it as a test of tenacity and hard work. There are numerous versions of the test floating around and good agents will have their players taking multiple versions of the test for weeks prior to the real one. It's just like playing football. You don't just go out and take the test, you practice, you drill, you see patterns in the types of questions presented. Then at the combine, you go in well practiced and take the test. The wonderlic now is a test of dedication. Were you willing to put in the time in the classroom to study and prepare for the test? If not, perhaps you will not treat game viewing seriously. Maybe you won't be focused enough during team meetings. Maybe you won't study your playbook.

Please read my quoted response.

ckhouston
04-04-2012, 01:47 PM
Wunderlich is not a gauge for intelligence, but rather a measure of thought process under pressure. You have twelve minutes to answer fifty questions and they start with the reading questions first which take longer so you end up being up against the gun and trying to run through them. More than showing your IQ (many could ace them if given enough time) it shows your ability to think quickly and adjust and make the right decision. Probably most important for QB's as they are faced with that scenario most often in-game.

Goldensilence
04-04-2012, 02:26 PM
Please read my quoted response.

So your assertion is that it now has no real relation to IQ, but now has come to be a representative of how much you are really willing to dedicate yourself to a test that cannot gauge at all the success you will or will not have in the NFL?

I guess he really has shown no dedication at all in coming out of the shadow of Patrick Peterson last year and has only managed to garner numerous awards for his on the field play and has managed to stay out of trouble off of it.

Far as his ability to digest a play book, guess you'll have to ask Les Miles didn't seem to have too much trouble digesting the play book for one of the continually toughest defenses in the nation.

HOU-TEX
04-04-2012, 02:54 PM
Meh, he'll go in the top ten anyway and I'll wish him well.

I've watched a lot of LSU games over the past few years and have heard/watched several of his interviews. He doesn't sound unintelligent at all, imo (unlike your VY's and CJ's). He seems like a really cool, down to Earth person. I'd draft him in a heartbeat.

Here's a sample on how he interviews

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czuW7k1Tbu4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

ArlingtonTexan
04-04-2012, 03:14 PM
well, if his agent did not know that he has learning disability...I will let you draw your own conclusions.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/03/bus-cook-in-shock-about-claiborne-test-score/

Doppelganger
04-04-2012, 03:20 PM
So your assertion is that it now has no real relation to IQ, but now has come to be a representative of how much you are really willing to dedicate yourself to a test that cannot gauge at all the success you will or will not have in the NFL?

I guess he really has shown no dedication at all in coming out of the shadow of Patrick Peterson last year and has only managed to garner numerous awards for his on the field play and has managed to stay out of trouble off of it.

Far as his ability to digest a play book, guess you'll have to ask Les Miles didn't seem to have too much trouble digesting the play book for one of the continually toughest defenses in the nation.

Um, no. That's not what I said.

The way it was originally designed was to be used as an IQ test. However, with so many versions of it out now and the fact that players study for it, it no longer has validity as an IQ measure.

You seem to think the only thing that is important is on the field production. That is important, but not the only thing. I think what's equally, if not more important is film study and dedication to learning one's playbook. He has played very well in the LSU defense but college success does not necessarily translate to professional success. There are lots of college players who have tons of natural skill but don't put forth the additional effort one they hit the NFL. At the NFL level EVERYONE is athletically gifted and the players that stick around are the ones who put in the work watching tape and studying their playbook meticulously. There are tons of stories of players with high talent that flame out in the NFL becuase they didn't have the drive to get better. Peyton Manning is not considered one of the best becuase of his natural abilities alone, it is becuase he spends HOURS in the film room dissecting defenses, refining his knowledge of his playbook, and working with his receivers. He gives EXTRA effort.

Again, his score is NOT reflective of his IQ, it is reflective of his effort. Everyone who attends the combine knows they will receive a Wonderlic. Every agent worth his salt knows that it is possible to study for and improve one's score on the test. So, why did he not take a practice one, gauge his weaknesses and then improve his score? If he really has an LD, why didn't he request appropriate accommodations? Why didn't he try out numerous practice versions to work on better strategies to take the test? From where I sit, it seems he knew he had reading difficulties and then walked into the test cold and didn't really have a plan of action. THAT suggests he was not prepared to take the test and did not put forth the effort required to be ready for it. The wonderlich is a single data point.

I have not looked at a ton of film on him, but it seemed he was pretty much a man-man corner. That is not a complex job for a CB. Stick to your man and don't let him catch the ball/make a big play. I don't recall very much zone, pass offs, fakes etc.

I will take nothing away from his on the field accomplishments. But, if I was going to invest that much money into him, I want to have a sense of his dedication. The wonderlich is a SINGLE factor in that, not the whole.

Lucky
04-04-2012, 07:30 PM
Blaine Gabbert - 42
Ryan Leaf - 27

Dan Marino - 15
Donovan McNabb - 14

Does anyone think these Wonderlic scores were indicative of these players' abilities to assimilate a NFL playbook?

Playoffs
04-04-2012, 07:35 PM
Blaine Gabbert - 42
Ryan Leaf - 27

Dan Marino - 15
Donovan McNabb - 14

Does anyone think these Wonderlic scores were indicative of these players' abilities to assimilate a NFL playbook?Bingo. We could only be so lucky as to have him on our team.

Doppelganger
04-04-2012, 09:24 PM
Blaine Gabbert - 42
Ryan Leaf - 27

Dan Marino - 15
Donovan McNabb - 14

Does anyone think these Wonderlic scores were indicative of these players' abilities to assimilate a NFL playbook?

There are always exceptions to every rule. Assimilating the NFL playbook is just one data point.

What are your thoughts on my other point? The issue of effort?

Lucky
04-04-2012, 09:40 PM
What are your thoughts on my other point? The issue of effort?
What about my point regarding the correlation of Wonderlic scores to NFL success? Why is this test relevant? And if it's not relevant, either to draft position or future NFL success, why is it being discussed?

Here's the question that should be asked: Why did someone release this low score on Claiborne? All NFL teams are privileged to the information. Could it be a team that may pass on Claiborne, but would want to deflect criticism for doing so? Makes me wonder.

Stemp
04-04-2012, 10:10 PM
What about my point regarding the correlation of Wonderlic scores to NFL success? Why is this test relevant? And if it's not relevant, either to draft position or future NFL success, why is it being discussed?

Here's the question that should be asked: Why did someone release this low score on Claiborne? All NFL teams are privileged to the information. Could it be a team that may pass on Claiborne, but would want to deflect criticism for doing so? Makes me wonder.
If anything, they did it to try to help lower his draft status. If they want him at a lower pick, then they will release it to hurt him. It's disgusting and wrong and I really wish the NFL would crack down harder on these leaks of confidential info.

Rey
04-04-2012, 10:12 PM
If anything, they did it to try to help lower his draft status. If they want him at a lower pick, then they will release it to hurt him. It's disgusting and wrong and I really wish the NFL would crack down harder on these leaks of confidential info.

Release it to who?

Don't all NFL teams already have access to these results?

How would telling someone something they already know do anything?

gary
04-04-2012, 11:05 PM
In the end he will probably still be drafted.

Doppelganger
04-04-2012, 11:27 PM
What about my point regarding the correlation of Wonderlic scores to NFL success? Why is this test relevant? And if it's not relevant, either to draft position or future NFL success, why is it being discussed?

Here's the question that should be asked: Why did someone release this low score on Claiborne? All NFL teams are privileged to the information. Could it be a team that may pass on Claiborne, but would want to deflect criticism for doing so? Makes me wonder.

I would say the Wonderlic is a good test of intelligence IF it is administered properly. I would say it is NOT administered properly.

Validity of the test is lowered each time a person takes a practice version. I wouldn't even be surprised if some agents got a hold of the actual test questions and taught their players half the test.

But, I contend the test is not relevant for intelligence. I think it gets at motivation. I would say some of the events at the combine have very little to do with actual football skill. What it shows his whether an athlete took the time to show up in shape. A failure to show up in shape (as seen with slower than expected 40 times, fewer reps on the bench), dropping balls (suggesting being rusty and not practicing), etc can get at a player's dedication to the game.

In college a lot of these guys were stars and didn't need to work very hard to get there. The wonderlic, the combine events, and other skills events can shed light on how much the player has done since the season ended. Have they put on weight and gotten doughy or have they continued to live in the gym.

Here is a true story. I had a grad school buddy of mine who used to play DII football at Augustana College. One of his teammates was invited to the combine. My buddy went to the gym twice a day and tried to get the teammate to go with him, but the teammate pretty much refused. He tried to get him to study for his Wonderlic, but he never did. When the combine came around the two of them went. The teammate bombed the wonderlic, showed up in terrible shape, and went from a guy who was considered low second round to UDFA. He went to the Arena league with my buddy for a couple of years. He then bounced around a few teams and was out of the league a couple of years later.

CloakNNNdagger
04-05-2012, 07:08 AM
As others have pointed out, there are many "tools" in life that most of those with learning disabilities can learn to use in order to, at least, partially compensate for their problem, not least of which requires hard work.

But if, indeed, Claiborne does suffer from a significant "learning disability," for a seasoned agent like Cook (20 years of experience,) it is far from a little oversight that he would know nothing about it, especially since a compensatory candidate learning ability evaluation and associated scoring adjustment mechanism was available if appropriate.

Combine president says an accommodation is available for the Wonderlic (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/04/combine-president-says-an-accommodation-i-available-for-the-wonderlic/)

Tuesday’s disclosure that LSU cornerback Morris Claiborne scored a four on the Wonderlic raises important questions about the general intelligence test administered every year at the Scouting Combine and elsewhere, including by individual teams during player visits.

And so, for a change, I decided to try to find some answers.

Although agent Bus Cook claimed in response to the news that he’s aware of no “deficiency” in Claiborne, multiple reports indicate that Claiborne has a learning disability. If that’s true (and we have no reason to believe it isn’t), Cook should have known — and Cook could have obtained an accommodation for Claiborne when taking the test.

Jeff Foster, president of National Scouting and the National Invitational Camp (otherwise known as the Scouting Combine), explained to PFT by phone on Wednesday the procedure used when a player has a learning disability. Foster said that, in such cases, the player communicates the existence of the disability in advance of the test. Then, documentation of the disability is obtained from the athlete’s school, and research is done regarding the accommodations provided to the player when taking tests at his college.

Once the learning disability is confirmed, Wonderlic will authorize an “untimed accommodation.” Under this approach, the player takes the 50-question test within the 12-minute allotment. That effort is scored separately, and the player is then permitted to continue taking the test for as long as he needs to complete it. The Wonderlic people later apply a formula to determine the score based on the answers supplied during the 12-minute window and the answers coming thereafter.

And so, frankly, it all falls back once again to the agent. Although, at some level, the player has the responsibility to bring his situation to the attention of those administering the test, the procedure to obtain an untimed accommodation requires advance effort, which means the agent needs to know that a player has a learning disability, and the agent must thereafter start making calls for the person from whom the agent will eventually be making money. (The universities also should be aware of this wrinkle, and they should be ready to initiate the process on behalf of their students.)

Claiborne’s situation gives rise to a separate topic that we mentioned on Tuesday, and that Dan Patrick has been advancing for months: Players should simply refuse to submit to the test. Foster said that hasn’t happened, yet.

“To my knowledge, we haven’t had anyone say they’re not taking the Wonderlic test,” Foster said. “Attendance is optional, as well as any pieces of the event. If they refused, we would just note that to the teams, and they wouldn’t have a score.”

Foster added that he “doesn’t think that would be a positive” for the athlete, but we continue to believe that not taking the test at all is better than taking it and getting a single-digit score, especially since only Vince Young got the benefit of a do-over that pushed his score into the teens.

The fact that the numbers inevitably are leaked supports the concept of a boycott. Foster explained that the results are sent via hard copy to one person with each team: the G.M. or the person holding the equivalent job. Once the information gets to one member of each of the 32 teams, nothing prevents them from telling others the scores — and there’s no way the NFL or anyone can find out how the information got out.

Given that the information will always get out, and that numbers at each extreme will always be newsworthy, the league needs to revisit its approach and reconsider whether the Wonderlic should even be administered at the Scouting Combine, or by the NFL at all. Maybe, in the end, the test should be given by the colleges that the players attend, especially since the colleges have a clear interest in ensuring that the student-athletes avoid creating the impression that they were athletes only and not students during their time in school.

Stemp
04-05-2012, 10:27 AM
Release it to who?

Don't all NFL teams already have access to these results?

How would telling someone something they already know do anything?

Perception is reality. The teams have to request the Wonderlic score. If a team that wants him but thinks another team may take a chance a few picks higher, they release the low Wonderlic and the perception of the player becomes that he's a "dummy" and his perceived value goes down. It may or may not work, but it's a no lose situation for the teams because they won't get punished for releasing confidential information to the media.

Regardless of WHY they did it, it was still wrong. The results are SUPPOSED to be confidential and not be released to the media or general public.

Vinny
04-05-2012, 11:38 AM
In the end he will probably still be drafted.

he won't last past the early picks. Deion Sanders made something like a 7 if I remember right....that sure hurt him and the teams that he played for.

gary
04-05-2012, 12:21 PM
he won't last past the early picks. Deion Sanders made something like a 7 if I remember right....that sure hurt him and the teams that he played for.See, you just don't know. Do you? He better put in the time in the books though or he'll be out of the NFL like that.

CloakNNNdagger
04-05-2012, 02:44 PM
he won't last past the early picks. Deion Sanders made something like a 7 if I remember right....that sure hurt him and the teams that he played for.


Darrelle Revis 10........no real Rhodes scholar in this CB group. But Revis is at least nearing QB level.:kitten:

Goldensilence
04-05-2012, 03:39 PM
I would say the Wonderlic is a good test of intelligence IF it is administered properly. I would say it is NOT administered properly.

Validity of the test is lowered each time a person takes a practice version. I wouldn't even be surprised if some agents got a hold of the actual test questions and taught their players half the test.

But, I contend the test is not relevant for intelligence. I think it gets at motivation. I would say some of the events at the combine have very little to do with actual football skill. What it shows his whether an athlete took the time to show up in shape. A failure to show up in shape (as seen with slower than expected 40 times, fewer reps on the bench), dropping balls (suggesting being rusty and not practicing), etc can get at a player's dedication to the game.

In college a lot of these guys were stars and didn't need to work very hard to get there. The wonderlic, the combine events, and other skills events can shed light on how much the player has done since the season ended. Have they put on weight and gotten doughy or have they continued to live in the gym.

Here is a true story. I had a grad school buddy of mine who used to play DII football at Augustana College. One of his teammates was invited to the combine. My buddy went to the gym twice a day and tried to get the teammate to go with him, but the teammate pretty much refused. He tried to get him to study for his Wonderlic, but he never did. When the combine came around the two of them went. The teammate bombed the wonderlic, showed up in terrible shape, and went from a guy who was considered low second round to UDFA. He went to the Arena league with my buddy for a couple of years. He then bounced around a few teams and was out of the league a couple of years later.

I would probably say showing up OUT OF SHAPE was a bigger reason for dropping, not his wunderlich score.

Yes, I am more interested in game tape then a Wunderlich score. I am more interested in the fact he garnered All-American Honors and other awards for his play. Yeah, I am more interested in his 3 cone, shuttle and how well he played man coverage. IMO I think shutdown man corners are the hardest position to find in the NFL. Zone defenses tend to mask lack of high end speed and size. The guy has both and excelled in man coverage. That's what I am interested in.

IF it really is just ONE of the measures for effort as you put it...why do you and a few others seem to be making it a BIG deal. As Lucky has pointed out wel as I have what real relevance does it have?

ckhouston
04-05-2012, 03:42 PM
All he needs to know is that he is man to man on the other teams best receiver. I am sure he can handle that.

SW H-TOWN
04-05-2012, 04:06 PM
It's actually pretty common knowledge that Claiborne has a learning disability. I've been hearing about it since he came out of high school.

I would assume that the teams interested in him would know about it too. So it wouldn't hurt him to just take the test anyway. It would look worse if he just refused to take it.

The info about his score was probably leaked by a team hoping he will fall to them.

I have a friend who went to a Houston area school and then played baseball at LSU. He said that classes there are big, easy, and the students are nice guys....That being said, classes are big and students are nice people probably at any big school.

ArlingtonTexan
04-06-2012, 01:08 AM
See, you just don't know. Do you? He better put in the time in the books though or he'll be out of the NFL like that.

Actually, we sort of do know, Claiborne is going to be drafted in the top half of the first round of the NFL draft. He is going to sign for more guaranteed money than many (really most) people make in a life time. He is going to get 3 or 4 to years in the NFL pretty much not matter what he does on the field because of the investment that a team has.

While he may blow every single cent of his money , he does not have look at any book that is not a playbook (which he will get plenty of time to do) ever again in his life.

He has a marketable skill that the world overvalues in terms of day-in, day-out importance. Not truly fair, but at least in his intial financial life that 4 on his Wunderlic means next to nothing.

gary
04-06-2012, 11:32 AM
Actually, we sort of do know, Claiborne is going to be drafted in the top half of the first round of the NFL draft. He is going to sign for more guaranteed money than many (really most) people make in a life time. He is going to get 3 or 4 to years in the NFL pretty much not matter what he does on the field because of the investment that a team has.

While he may blow every single cent of his money , he does not have look at any book that is not a playbook (which he will get plenty of time to do) ever again in his life.

He has a marketable skill that the world overvalues in terms of day-in, day-out importance. Not truly fair, but at least in his intial financial life that 4 on his Wunderlic means next to nothing.No, I mean how he'll play in the NFL is what we do not know he might still be good if he puts in the collared work necessary to succeed like others who have scored low before him have done.

edo783
04-06-2012, 11:13 PM
Took the test for work. Scored a 42. Still can't play in the NFL. Very confused.

Malloy
04-07-2012, 11:31 AM
I've got a better idea. They should make them all public. Maybe the impending threat of public humiliation might inspire some of these guys to attempt to learn something while they're in college.

You're right. I personally like the fact that some jocks are forced into 3 years of school, they might not turn out like complete morons in case their NFL career never picks up.

Wønderl337z0r is teh r0xz0rz!!!11!"!!

CretorFrigg
04-07-2012, 05:54 PM
Took the test for work. Scored a 42. Still can't play in the NFL. Very confused.

What kind of job required you to take a Wonderlic test?

ArlingtonTexan
04-07-2012, 06:00 PM
What kind of job required you to take a Wonderlic test?

Plenty of them. My wife (see post a couple pages back) had to take it to test/quality control healthcare software. Most of the employees no matter the level were required as I understand it.

ObsiWan
04-07-2012, 06:33 PM
The kid has a very difficult time reading and did ending up doing well in his classes using alternative learning and testing methods.

If being able to read a few sentences takes a few minutes, those 12 testing minutes will fly by and you won't get to answer very many questions.

Amazing how some people on here insist on mocking a guy whom everyone on the NFL knew has a hard time with reading and written tests. I heard on the radio that agents of players with learning and testing disabilities we start telling them to decline taking the Wonderlic, same as guys who decline to throw or run at the combines.

This makes sense to me. If my agent knows I have reading issues due to dyslexia or whatever, why the hell would he let me take that test? If he doesn't know enough about me to know of my learning disability, then he isn't on the job. In either case I'd fire his butt.

ObsiWan
04-07-2012, 06:35 PM
Took the test for work. Scored a 42. Still can't play in the NFL. Very confused.

forty time >>> Wunderlich score
:D

ObsiWan
04-07-2012, 06:39 PM
Perception is reality. The teams have to request the Wonderlic score. If a team that wants him but thinks another team may take a chance a few picks higher, they release the low Wonderlic and the perception of the player becomes that he's a "dummy" and his perceived value goes down. It may or may not work, but it's a no lose situation for the teams because they won't get punished for releasing confidential information to the media.

Regardless of WHY they did it, it was still wrong. The results are SUPPOSED to be confidential and not be released to the media or general public.

The conspiracy theorist in me believes this is what is going on in this case. Someone with their pick in the mid teens wants him but doesn't want (or cannot afford) to trade up.

gary
04-07-2012, 08:35 PM
Players do not have to take the test?