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View Full Version : What exactly did DD do to the offense???


Fiddy
06-19-2004, 11:58 PM
Disclaimer: Very, Very Long

I have voiced my opinion on many other threads that DD might be hurting the offense by taking all the dump downs, so now after 2 hours of research and doing math I have some interesting stats to throw around.

1st 5 games = pre-DD; Last 11 games = after-DD; except on DD stats, I had trouble classifying which one I should put the @Tenn game under. So for Bradford, Johnson, Gaffney, and Carr the @ Tenn game is counted in the first 5, for Davis the @ Tenn game is counted as the last 12. I did this because I felt that the @ Tenn game was the game where DD's production started and after that game everyone else's tailed off

Corey Bradford
1st 5 games - 54.2 yards/game and 2.4 receptions/game
*most productive game, in first 5 games of season, came with David Carr at QB (@ Tenn: 5 receptions, 127 yards, 1 TD)
Last 11 games - 17.2 yards/game and 1.01 receptions/game
*most productive game, in the last 11 games of the season, came with David Carr at QB (Tenn: 3 receptions, 36 yards)

Andre Johnson
1st 5 games - 79 yards/game and 5.6 receptions/game
*most productive game, in first 5 games of season, came with David Carr at QB (KC: 7 recpetions, 102 yards, 2 TDs (one TD came with Tony Banks at QB))
Last 11 games - 52.8 yards/game and 3.5 receptions/game
*most productive game, in the last 11 games of the season, came with Tony Banks at QB (@ Buf: 4 receptions, 122 yards, 1 TD)
*most productive game, in the last 11 games of the season, with David Carr at QB (Tenn: 5 reception, 108 yards)

Jabar Gaffney
1st 5 games - 42.2 yards/game and 3.2 receptions/game
Last 11 games - 17.4 yards/game and 1.6 receptions/game
*most productive game, in the last 11 games of the season, came with Tony Banks at QB (@ Buf: 3 receptions, 40 yards)
*most productive game, in the last 11 games of the season, with David Carr at QB (Tenn: 1 reception, 14 yards or @ Cin 2 receptions, 8 yards, 1 TD)

David Carr (only counted 4 games in last 11)
1st 5 games - 250.2 yards/game; 34.4 attempts/game; 19.8 completions/game; 57.56 completion %
*most productive game, in first 5 games of the season: @Mia: 266 yards, 1 TD or @Tenn: 371 yards, 2 TDs, but 3 INTs
Last 4 out of 11 games - 165.75 yards/game; 26.25 attemps/game; 14 completions/game; 53.33 completion %
*most productive game, in the last 11 games of the season: Tenn 242 yards, 1 TD, 2 INTs

Domanick Davis
1st 3 games (only played in 2)-
RUSHING
9.3 rushing attempts/game; 37.3 yards/game; 4.0 yards/carry
RECEIVING
2 receptions/game; 21.3 yards/game; 10.6 yards/reception

Last 12 games (only played in 11)
RUSHING
19.1 attempts/game; 83.5 yards/game; 4.4 yards/carry
RECEIVING
3.7 receptions/game; 26.1 yards/game; 7 yards/reception

Total Offense
1st 5 games - 352.8 yards/game
Last 11 games - 231.1 yards/game
Last 11 minus Dave Ragone games - 256.8 yards/game

Now given that 2 of the last games came with Ragone at QB and Carr was
injured most of the last 11 games, there is still a noticeable difference in the
yards per game before DD and after DD, almost 100 yards of offense.
When you RB is averaging more receptions and yards receiving then your 2nd
and 3rd WR something is wrong. Read that last line again, your RB is averaging more receptions and yards receiving than BOTH your 2nd and 3rd WR.

Now I dont know what the problem is, Carr being quick, directions from Palmer and/or Capers, or something else, but this is what I am most worried about next year: Carr not taking advantage of all of his weapons and DD playing too big of a role in him not taking advantage of his weapons.

Did DD hinder the development of Carr?
Did DD hurt the explosivness of the offense?
Did DD turn the Texans into a conservative offense?

All of the WRs stats dropped dramically, especially Gaff's, after DD was discovered. ALL OF THE WRs. Not one, not two, all three of them. AJ's yards/game dropped almost 30 yards, Bradford's dropped 30 yards and 20 yards. Carr's passing dropped almost 100 yards/game.

I know one thing DD did: DD gave the Texans a running threat.
But he gave the running threat at what cost???

texasguy346
06-20-2004, 12:24 AM
It's an interesting post, but there are several different components that played a role in it. One, early in the season the NFL defenses weren't expecting much from the Texans, and with only one season of film to work with it took time to develop a scheme to slow the offense. Often in the NFL you'll see offensive numbers blow up the first few games for several NFL teams till the defenses adjust and bring it back towards the norm. Secondly, injuries played a key role in the conservativeness of the offense. After David returned from his shoulder injury late in the season, his arm was most assuredly not 100% and therefore was not as capable to make throws downfield against even mediocre DBs covering. Add that to the fact that the often injured defense had a hard time stopping anyone means less time on the field for the offense thus fewer chances to gain yards. The injuries would also lead the coaching staff to adjust and throw in safer plays to get DC comfortable. Thirdly, there is much to be said for the strength of schedule as the seasoned progressed. That coupled with the injuries would skew the offensive production some. The reasons go on and on from rookies hitting the 'wall' to even wear and tear on the team as a whole as it gets later into the season.

Dont get me wrong, I think the numbers you put forth are interesting, but in the NFL a running game is very valuable. It gives you the ability to control the ball longer and thus a greater chance to win the game. I'm sure even DC would tell you that he was thankful for a running game, and a good dependable dump off guy. Also, I believe that if DC's progress has been stunted its more a product of his own actions as opposed to having a dependable dump off option. I feel that you'll see much more progress from Carr in his 3rd year, as I assume many others do, and he'll surprise many people. Look for him to start making his other reads as opposed to only his primary read like he did much of last season. If you want a good example of a reliable dump off guy look at Green with the Packers, or Faulk a few years ago with the Rams. If anything it allows more chances to turn a negative play into positive yards. Good stuff nonetheless.

BTW Tried to make an equally long reply, but I feel I came up a bit short. Oh well maybe next time.

Ibar_Harry
06-20-2004, 12:25 AM
I have had a gut feel along similar lines. Everyone has been saying how explosive our receivers will be this year, but I'm not so certain that is in the cards. If you look at what we went after offensively (TE) and what we have done with the line, it points more to a conservative running game and winning with defense rather than being offensive minded. I'm very concerned about the direction the ball club is taking given our talent. I think this is a reflection of Caper's comfort level. I think people are going to find us in the same struggles we had last year. Very close games with little offensive threat from the QB. We had trouble last year when the other teams focused on DD. Yes, he did well, but when crunch time came I think you will find he was stopped. To focus on the receivers alone would be equally as bad. I just have a feeling that we won't be dynamic in the way we use our receivers. You can't put one receiver out there and expect him to get the ball with all of the talented defensive ball players in the NFL. I hope I'm wrong, but most of the press out of the mini camps has focused on defense and little if any comments about the offense, and in particular, AJ, Bradford, or Gaffny. I wonder why?

BuffSoldier
06-20-2004, 02:21 AM
I dont believe that DD hurt the Texans offense last year, he was just last years Billy Miller. In year one, Carr found a reliable target in Miller and being young and not so smart, he looked at the 1st receiver then threw to Miller, same thing he did to DD once DD proved he could be productive, not only in the run game, but the passing game as well. I wouldnt blame it on DD for doing a good job catching out of the backfield and makeing plays. If I had to blame anyone, it would have to be Carr/Banks for locking on to AJ so long then haveing to dump it off. The QBs responsibility is to see the whole field, and check all of his targets before dumping down to the RB or TE(unless a blitz is on on which they look quickly to the hot route or dump off).


Oh and the reason most of the focus this off-season was on defense was because most of our offseason moves were on D. We signed R.Smith and used most of our draft picks on defensive players. We also had more defensive position shifts. The press usually likes to talk about the new players and topics more than the same people.

done88
06-20-2004, 03:20 AM
Interesting developments. I can agree with your stats to a point. However the real issue is what the coachs allowed Carr to do. They said at the begining of the year that Carr was going to get rid of the ball quicker even if that meant not allowing plays to develop. Once Davis established a runnig game Capers went into his normal mode of conservative offense run the ball down their throats. Therefore limiting the opportunities for the rest of the team. When Carr ran a play he only had two options. I was at every home game. THere were times Johnson was wide open Carr would look at Bradeford and then throw it Davis. Those were his two reads. Hopefully he will develop a thid read this year and maybe four next year. Right now the only active quarter back to make 4 or 5 reads is Farve. David has a good arm and sometimes in the first five games hew forced a few passes to avoid sacks. This accounts for early production. After Davis established a running game. Carr began makeing two reads with Davis usually the second read. As the year went on Carr got much better at it. At first it was check the 1 reciever and if not open throw to second reciever if hew is open or not. This caused afew ints. Next he started making decisions and if the second reciever was covered he would throw the ball out of bounds. Finally he started moving out of the pocket and running is the second reciever is covered. His next jump will be throwing once he moves out of the pocket because his second reciever is covered. If you watch Farve you will see that he will run around for ever looking at the 4,5 and 6 options. That is when David will be great. Mcnabb is just learning to look at his thid reciever this year. Last year Mcnabb tried to make impossiable throws when his reciever was covered. Vick looks at one and two and then runs. Sometimes he only looks at one and runs. The key here is that although not effective at winning games all those dumps to Davis help Carr to understand when to through to a second option and when not to. Davis speed up Carrs progression even if it did not turn into wins on the scoreboard. :soapbox:

Scooter
06-20-2004, 05:25 AM
edit: nevermind, failed to read the whole thing.

Lucky
06-20-2004, 01:33 PM
First, I'd like to thank Fiddy for displaying his research. Good work.

And I think you have made a strong point about Davis. But I can take the same data, and make a case that the Texan coaching staff made a decision to become more conservative due to Carr's injuries. Yeah, Domanick's prowess facilitated those game plans. But, the Texans probably would have gone that way even if Mack had been the back. I just feel the Texans were for the most part concerned about Carr's health and the ability to keep Banks on the field. They knew then what we would find out in the late season Florida road trip...Ragone was not ready. Had Carr been healthy all year long, we would have seen a less conservative offense.

So the question you're asking is "What offense will we see in '04?". The Carr driven air attack or the DD small ball? I'd guess some of both, and a little extra on the side. I think we'll see a bunch of double TE sets that will try to spread the defense and allow Davis (or Hollings) to find holes into the secondary. And I think we'll see 3 WR sets where the Texans will try to take advantage of the opponents weaker DB's. As a bonus, I expect more play action passes on 1st down, taking full benefit of the accomplished rushing attack.

On paper, look how far the talent base has grown from entering year 2 to this season:

WR - A full offseason for AJ and another for Gaffney. Remember, this would have been Jabar's true rookie season had he played out his eligibility at Florida.

TE - A veteran blocking TE in Bruener and a young multi-purpose guy in Joppru. Plus, Miller is still one of the more reliable receivers at TE in the league.

T - Two huge, long armed, prototype tackles in Wade and Wand. With a new blocking scheme designed for their maximum effectiveness.

G - Pitt’s physical style making him likely to become one of the better guards in the AFC by the end of the season. Plus, Wiegert's 2nd year in the system.

C - An extra season of experience at center for McKinney.

FB - Two functional NFL FB's with Baxter being the better runner/receiver and Norris the better blocker.

RB - Two gifted young RB's with a full offseason under their belt. While Davis has already developed into a prominent dual threat, Hollings could well be one of the top 5 fastest RB's in the NFL.

QB - Not only an extra year of experience for Carr, but Ragone's 1st full NFL offseason. By the end of training camp, Dave could be hailed as the most improved player on this team. The man does have the physical ability to play and play well in this league.

I expect the Texans to build on last year's early season passing performance and combine that with the ground game that Davis provided. By the season's end, this should be an offense that can take control of a game pull out the victories that eluded them last year.

keyfro
06-20-2004, 02:07 PM
this was a very good post...you obviously took your time on doing the research and putting your thoughts in this...so applaud you for that...DD didn't hurt the offense...he hurt the passing game...which isn't a bad thing...he just made us a more balanced offense that's all...we went from averaging like 60 some odd yards rushing a game to somewhere in the high 80's i think...he rushed for over a 1,000yds in what 12 games...so to say he hurt the offense wouldn't be correct...a balanced offense is the way to go...if we start to depend completely on the running game then we'll get stuck in situations that require us to pass and we won't be ready for...if we depend too much on the pass teams like the patriots, the bucs, and the other good pass defensive teams will eat our lunch...so don't worry...like glenn said we just need to gell as a team before the season starts

Vinny
06-20-2004, 02:15 PM
Good stuff from all and especially Fiddy. What we see in the Texans offense in years one and two is an expansion team with young players and journeymen in spots at times. Terms like refined, sophisticated, diverse, experienced, and dominating are not going to be found.

I think that we have seen the makings of a solid offense and simply witnessed the growing pains that are associated with going with youth and inexperience. As our players mature and can handle more sophisticated schemes I think you guys will find that our offense gets more complex and tougher to stop. The NFL is one tough league and a unit centered on one and two year players will struggle. Heck, when you add one rookie to a unit he is often exposed. We had a team centered on youth last year.

vtech9
06-20-2004, 08:24 PM
this all brings to mind something that McClain said in one of his question & answer sessions (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/2620399). He said "Because the defense had so many injuries, including being depleted up front, the offense had to become more conservative and rely more on the running game. When Carr was hurt, they ran Domanick Davis a lot, and it paid off."

Texansbacker
06-20-2004, 08:31 PM
Great stats and very interesting read to all.

The Texans have the necessary talent combined with veteran leadership and good coaching to make the same strides made by Carolina last year.

The Texans improved line on both sides of the ball with the Wade and Robaire additions, additional experience to talented youngsters (Carr, Johnson, Gaffney, Hollings and of course DD), and a return to health for the teams proven stars (Walker, Payne and AG) coupled with the fact that most every opponent will underestimate the Texans will prove to be a breakout season for the team, individually and as a whole.

Carr will make all the reads, all the throws and manage effectively.

DD will provied a solid, if not spectacular, running game and add to the aerial attack.

AJ will show why he was 3rd pick of the draft with improved hands and comprehension to accompay the size, strength and talent.

The defense looks to have all the pieces, it just depends on how fast the youngsters pick-up the system and adapt to the position and the league. Another big question mark is the health of the veterans. If the (AG, Walker, and Payne) can all stay healthy and we can get another career year out of Jamie Sharper, then the Texans will make the playoffs. Bunch of ifs but fewer than the last two years for the Texans franchise and most everyone else.

sensei
06-20-2004, 09:22 PM
Great Post Guys,

I see everyone's point of view here and do not disagree with anyone.

I think the underlying reason behind what and how the offense has performed and will perform this year, is directly equated to the performance of the offensive line.

The offensive line play will determine when the brain thrust has confidence in the offenses ability to complete certain plays or even try them, David Carr has the time to read the defense, Carr has time to survey the field, the line has the ability to open holes or push the defense backward for a short gain, etc.

I think last year they just felt "SAFE" trying the type of plays you are talking about. This years play calling will be determined by the offensive line play again. I think the jury is still out on what plays we will be able to execute. I hope all the changes will also open up the offense and give Carr time to complete his reads. It's also time for him to step forward and lead.

I believe (hope) we have adequate skill players. Its the trenches that I worry about.

I know this is not revelation to anyone. I just wanted to add my $.02 worth.

sensei

Hervoyel
06-21-2004, 12:22 AM
Well, I tend to fall in the "DD was last years Billy Miller" line of thinking (and so I am saying that BuffSoldier is clearly brilliant :) ) and I suspect that in 2004 IF Carr continues to progress (and I see no reason why he should not) then DD's pass catching skills will be used less than in 2003. Those plays will be directed at our 2nd and 3rd WR's more often and we should see an increase in the number of yards we get where this is the case.

I'd also hazard a guess that DD will produce for us in 2004 quite well on the ground. I don't think that part of the "DD Equation" was a fluke and assuming he stays healthy I think we're going to see a 1,400 - 1,600 yard performance out of him. Optimistic? Yes but if our other wideouts come into play more then I think stacking the line to shut down DD is going to be a very bad idea. I look for 2004 to be the year Palmers offense starts to run with the big boys.

dalemurphy
06-21-2004, 12:30 AM
Hopefully, this year, the offense will have enough stability to begin to learn it's identity. I think it's very important for a team to figure who it is and what it can and wants to do. I think this is why many of the so-calles West Coast offenses have had success- they knew who they were and what they wanted to do. The Faulk/Warner Rams were that way as well... I can list others that had a clear vision of who they were:

Dallas Cowboys: 1991-1996
Pittsburgh: 1995-2000
Baltimore Ravens: 2000-2003
Carolina Panthers: 2003
Washington Reskins: 1980's

even the Houston Oilers during Pardee... it was a poor choice but just being committed and believing in the Run 'n Shoot brought results... Though, I'll never forgive them for using that great OL and that monstrous bench of RBs so poorly!

idonno: All of that to say that I just want the offense to establish itself somehow... If we're going to pound it on first down 70% of the time, then let them buy into it and figure out how to make this thing work.

El Tejano
06-21-2004, 01:08 PM
I do think this was a very good post and probably one of the best in a long time because it allows us to put so much analogy to it.

I wouldn't say that these stats aren't correct but I would say they don't reflect what the season was really like. While taking the first five games before Davis started and comparing them to the last eleven when he did start I think it is important to take the games themselves into consideration.

Miami- we had to start passing to get back in the game, where a Carr to Bradford 78 yard catch and run helped get us back in it but the dump passes to DD (I knew he was special when he ran over Zach Thomas) is what helped us get the game winning FG.

New Orleans-Injuries to our defensive line allowed the Saints to get a big lead on us and we had to pass to try and get back in the game.

K.C- We turned over the ball too much and we had to pass to get back into that game and Carr was pulled from the game to avoid injury to him.

Jville- This was a little different. Carr had a great first half, and he and Johnson looked good in the 4th quarter. A lousy halfback pass call and a lousty 3rd quarter ruined our chances of winning this one early.

@Tenn-Matt Stephens forced us to have to come from behind and pretty much throw in the second half, and Tenn defense was forcing Carr to get rid of it fast.

Also we played Indy twice after those five games and they have a pretty good cover 2 defense that allows the dump off and we had to exploit their weak run defense.

Then you have to look at how Davis did the last two games of the season. He showed up in those games against Tenn and Indy, and he was the reason we won against Atlanta and Carolina.

We can also put it like this. Our 3rd down conversion % was a whole lot better once we started Davis and as the season progressed.

H-TownRules
07-18-2004, 07:30 AM
I'm sure someone else has already said it in another post, but Domanick Davis should provide a stable running game which will help in running more play action plays that could open things up for Carr and the WRs. I feel that DD did more help than damage last season and gave the fans a new player to root for... I remember the VERY loud cheers when DD became the first Texan to rush for 100 yards in a game.

pv1999
07-18-2004, 09:36 AM
It's a good thing that Carr didn't break his sack record from the previous year. Davis is part of that , the Offensive line and the coaching staff is equally responsible. It doesn't make good football sense to bounce your franchise around the turf and expect him to be healthy for long.
However, we should not mistake good numbers for good offense. The goal is to put points on the board and win ballgames. The question is did we win more ballgames with Davis than without? If so, then "What DD did for the offense?" is simply help them to win.

HoustonTexans4Life
07-18-2004, 10:34 PM
To think DD hurt or offense in any kind of way is a little strange but to think he took away from the recievers is even more nuts (no offense) ! Yeah or recievers might of had more yards and catches before DD took the starting job at running back but Carr's injuries had alot to do with it ! I Mean look at all or last few games where we had most all or starting offense we had over 20 points in a lot of those games ,,,,its or defense that couldnt stop the other team ! i think DD helped us alot and w/ a more productive defense we would of won alot more games ! and about the recievers Tony banks is a good quarter back but he is alittle bit conservative and that also limits recievers catches and yards, while carr was injured . I might be crazy but i think Davis is exactly what or offense needed .

powda
07-19-2004, 12:18 AM
not long into the season it became apparent davis was the key playmaker on our offense. naturally, that took oppurtunities away from our wide recievers. barring injury, i dont think that will be the case this year (at least to the extreme your stats would suggest). heres a few factors to consider...

1. carr's evolution as a qb...reading the defense...a better grip of the offense...better progression through his targets.

2. a better offensive line then we've ever had...gives carr the time to progress ,and hit those downfield recievers.

3. joppru...equally a threat as a reciever and a blocker makes our offense less predictible and may give carr a slight advantage compared to what we've had in the past (yes, i'm assumeing he'll start at some point in the season)

4. an improved defense wich would ideally hold on to leads and keep games even closer then they have in the past potentially opening the playbook. this would keep the playcalling less conservative.

5. OVERALL HEALTH!

i would not anticipate our offense being the kind to provide anyone of our recivers a 90+ reception type season. what i would expect instead with davis in the key role on our offense, is an improved downfield performance. more deep plays and more touchdowns out of our recievers. until this offense becomes domminant its a give and take league. your stats suggest disputible themes, what isnt up for question in my mind is wether or not davis made us better. he did ,and i hope that trend continues.

Fiddy
07-19-2004, 12:24 AM
To think DD hurt or offense in any kind of way is a little strange but to think he took away from the recievers is even more nuts (no offense) ! Yeah or recievers might of had more yards and catches before DD took the starting job at running back but Carr's injuries had alot to do with it ! I Mean look at all or last few games where we had most all or starting offense we had over 20 points in a lot of those games ,,,,its or defense that couldnt stop the other team ! i think DD helped us alot and w/ a more productive defense we would of won alot more games ! and about the recievers Tony banks is a good quarter back but he is alittle bit conservative and that also limits recievers catches and yards, while carr was injured . I might be crazy but i think Davis is exactly what or offense needed .I can agree with the first part of your first sentence, but DD did take away from the WRs. I do agree that the Carr's injury did have a lot.

Tony Banks was not conservative last year and did not limit the WRs, the WRs had some of their best games with Banks at the QB. He was our best QB last year.

HoustonTexans4Life
07-19-2004, 09:35 AM
I can agree with the first part of your first sentence, but DD did take away from the WRs. I do agree that the Carr's injury did have a lot.

Tony Banks was not conservative last year and did not limit the WRs, the WRs had some of their best games with Banks at the QB. He was our best QB last year.


Well that seems to be the way it goes ,,,you have good running teams and you dont hear much from their recievers ,,,or viceversa ! Like the broncos w/ clinton portis ,,,,and the ravens w/ Jamal Lewis ! I think since whe have a solid ground game and a well rounded set of recievers its up to the coaches to decide the pass/run differentia. Dont blame DD he dont call the plays. (He just makes the big ones)

Fiddy
07-19-2004, 11:35 AM
Well that seems to be the way it goes ,,,you have good running teams and you dont hear much from their recievers ,,,or viceversa ! Like the broncos w/ clinton portis ,,,,and the ravens w/ Jamal Lewis ! I think since whe have a solid ground game and a well rounded set of recievers its up to the coaches to decide the pass/run differentia. Dont blame DD he dont call the plays. (He just makes the big ones)The difference between playing a ball control offense with DD/Portis/Lewis is that Portis and Lewis broke 50 yard TD runs. DD had one 50 yard run, and it wasnt for a TD. Portis and Lewis were a threats to take a long one to the house everyday, DD wasnt a threat to break a long one.

Also, the Ravens had a rookie QB in that got hurt and the Broncos had to go to their 3rd string QB...

Speedy
07-19-2004, 12:28 PM
I do think this was a very good post and probably one of the best in a long time because it allows us to put so much analogy to it.

I wouldn't say that these stats aren't correct but I would say they don't reflect what the season was really like. While taking the first five games before Davis started and comparing them to the last eleven when he did start I think it is important to take the games themselves into consideration.

Miami- we had to start passing to get back in the game, where a Carr to Bradford 78 yard catch and run helped get us back in it but the dump passes to DD (I knew he was special when he ran over Zach Thomas) is what helped us get the game winning FG.

New Orleans-Injuries to our defensive line allowed the Saints to get a big lead on us and we had to pass to try and get back in the game.

K.C- We turned over the ball too much and we had to pass to get back into that game and Carr was pulled from the game to avoid injury to him.

Jville- This was a little different. Carr had a great first half, and he and Johnson looked good in the 4th quarter. A lousy halfback pass call and a lousty 3rd quarter ruined our chances of winning this one early.

@Tenn-Matt Stephens forced us to have to come from behind and pretty much throw in the second half, and Tenn defense was forcing Carr to get rid of it fast.

Also we played Indy twice after those five games and they have a pretty good cover 2 defense that allows the dump off and we had to exploit their weak run defense.

Then you have to look at how Davis did the last two games of the season. He showed up in those games against Tenn and Indy, and he was the reason we won against Atlanta and Carolina.

We can also put it like this. Our 3rd down conversion % was a whole lot better once we started Davis and as the season progressed.What exactly did DD do to our ofense?? The last sentence in that quote. "Our 3rd down conversion % was a whole lot better once we started Davis and as the season progressed" That's huge for an offense. As someone mentioned, numbers don't tell the whole story. You have to look at each game and situation. You're going to pass more when you're behind even with a 1,500 yard back. But the converting 3rd downs, which we were horrible at in year one, plays a BIG part in a successful offense, IMO.

Fiddy
09-19-2004, 08:38 PM
Now is the best time as ever to bring this thread back up....


To think DD hurt or offense in any kind of way is a little strange but to think he took away from the recievers is even more nuts (no offense) ! Yeah or recievers might of had more yards and catches before DD took the starting job at running back but Carr's injuries had alot to do with it ! I Mean look at all or last few games where we had most all or starting offense we had over 20 points in a lot of those games ,,,,its or defense that couldnt stop the other team ! i think DD helped us alot and w/ a more productive defense we would of won alot more games ! and about the recievers Tony banks is a good quarter back but he is alittle bit conservative and that also limits recievers catches and yards, while carr was injured . I might be crazy but i think Davis is exactly what or offense needed .does it seem strange now???

DominatorDavis
09-19-2004, 09:59 PM
4 fumles in 2 games. Eegghh, not good double D. :thumbdown

TheOgre
09-20-2004, 10:02 AM
I think our offense if fine as is EXCEPT the turnovers. I'm more concerned with DD's fumbles than Carr's picks though. DD's fumbles seem habitual now. Teams are keying on stripping the ball from him too.

It seems like Caper's philosophy is to wear teams down with DD and watch him plow over them with ease in the 4th. The problem I see with it is too much run, run, pass in the first half, particularly the first quarter. I'd like to see more 1st and 2nd down play action passes in the first half. We can still run prodominantly, but we should take advantage of the stacked lines we are seeing so much of.

MojoX
09-20-2004, 11:24 AM
Too much of the load is falling on DD, right now. The guy is a good back, but maybe he just isn't effective as over 50% of the offense. DD isn't LT. When he isn't fumbling, he is a consistent running threat, but never a threat to take it all the way from anywhere on the field. There is no reason why he should be the leading receiver, especially when Andre Johnson is on the field. The coaches and Carr need to get more of those passes to the TEs and WRs. Those dump offs to DD could be going to a TE or slot receiver.

Htown34s
09-20-2004, 01:10 PM
If you think about it, this is the first time our guys have had to deal with any sort of adversity. They were expected to win these first two games and failed. This is new. How they respond will determine Caper's future and the team's reputation.

I support them of course, but I do have a few gripes:

-When was the last time Carr did a pump fake? He stares down his receivers too much.

-DD still goes down with only one arm on the ball.

-90% of our play calling is run on 1st and 2nd down and then try to pass for a first down. NO imagination. Screen dumps are not opening up the offense.

-Carr seems to give up too easy on his receivers and dumps to DD. Effective, but I wished he'd let Johnson try to go get it more.

-Where is the blitz? I can't remember the last time I saw an all-out blitz by our "hard to recognize the blitz" D.

Also, in my eyes, our guys are playing soft. It seems like the other team always hits harder and plays nastier (but fair).

To me, all of these are coaching issues. I feel like we're on the road to being respected in another two or three years, but not this year. I don't think its possible with Capers' coaching, he will need more time to work with the guys because he's not the type that gets quick results.

YoungnotBush
02-09-2006, 10:49 PM
It decreased everyone elses stats because the Texans knew they had to start pounding the ball and try to extend games and pull out a win in the fourth quarter. That also keeps other teams offenses off the field and that way they can't beat you 50 - 0. DD gave us our best chances of winning, but the QB has to be able to seal the deal.

Big78
02-10-2006, 12:01 AM
i attribute it to the fact that carr had no effective #2WR to look to. DD was essencialy his #2 and he did a good job, i think, in giving Carr a reliable option.:twocents:

Scooter
02-10-2006, 01:40 AM
whew, you did some digging for this one. DD has two knocks on his game. 1, he isnt incredibly fast. 2, he isnt very durable (despite this post's creation being after a 300+ carry/68 catch season). neither are very arguable because they're accurate. unless you're drafting jim brown however, every back has trade offs and i for one would trade speed for vision. as far as durability ... look at DD's injuries (bruised ribs, bruised thigh, etc). i'm not one to question his heart because when he plays he leaves it all on the field, but if we could field something resembling a winning team i bet he'd line up in a wheelchair if he had to.

what this post was in reference to however is how the offense reacts with & without his presence. it's actually been argued that the offense performs better without DD because then they actually have to play football and not form an offensive gameplan 90% around DD. i find it hard to fault DD for carr not having a TE to check down to or sufficient blocking to find the deep routed receivers in palmer's passing attack. nor is it DD's fault that every play capers called involved looking at the clock first. what we had is a conflict of interest ... a defensive coordinator calling the offensive plays and a long ball offensive coordinator arguing with it. when DD was in the game, other teams DID have to game plan around him ... the trick was to make our offense one dimensional. either by stacking the box the entire game, or letting DD be the entire offense the opposition successfully dictated how we played. when DD wasnt playing we were forced to have to play the entire offense because our coaching staff was otherwise befuddled as to what to do. this is poor game planning and poor adjustment ... NOT poor execution.

i think next season we'll really start seeing how much of an asset DD is with kubiak calling the shots. our possession WR's (plus 'dre who plays like the biggest guy on the field) should fit entirely into kubiak's shorter "zone destruction" passing game, and DD should benefit greatly from kubiak being smart enough to work his run blocking scheme to exploit DD's acceleration and cut-back ability. with the addition of a legitimate tight end, and if very least a better coached line, i think DD is going to be a fantasy draft "must" for years to come.

zeplin
02-10-2006, 02:00 AM
The Texan were a team that was coached by someone who believed in the ball control philosophy. 3 yards and a cloud of dust. When they did pass usually DC was looking up from the ground. It was not until later in the season that they began to work for the quick short pass to keep defense off of DC. He had about 1.5 secs on avg to make a decision on where the ball was going too. If Sherman is really coming to Houston then we should benifit from his experiance. DD will work nicely with a revamped OL. We should be happy that we have a 1000 yard rusher already in place.
OL, OL, OL!!!!:homer:

TheOgre
02-10-2006, 08:22 AM
I'd add DD's lack of pass-blocking skills to his deficiencies. Bush is allegedly a decent pass-blocker.


*edit* Also, take a look at our winning percentage with DD starting verses Wells starting over the past 3 seasons.

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 08:54 AM
*edit* Also, take a look at our winning percentage with DD starting verses Wells starting over the past 3 seasons.

I would say the problem was DC always looking to dump off to DD and it stumped our running and passing game. 8 men in the box were always licking their chops. Wells was never a threat in the passing game, so DC in the time he could drop back usually had an extra blocker in Wells. Just a shell game in my opinion, with the former staff not knowing how to use their assets properly.

If you want to talk winning percentages then why did we just extend Carr when we had a guy on the bench that guided us to three wins out of five games in Banks. Best streak in Texans history. :cool:

Vinny
02-10-2006, 08:57 AM
i attribute it to the fact that carr had no effective #2WR to look to. DD was essencialy his #2 and he did a good job, i think, in giving Carr a reliable option.:twocents:When AJ is injured Gaffney catches 9 passes....how come he can't get looks at a WR2 but out produce AJ when he is the first option? So Gaffney can beat CB1's but not CB2's? (I think I know why but I will keep my mouth shut because I don't want to get into it with the apologists). If you haven't been the first or last option in this offense you have been lost....I don't think that is Gaffney's fault.

also, DD is a dump off....he just swings to the flat...he is the last option.

thunderkyss
02-10-2006, 09:25 AM
This thread was started after our second season...... it makes some of the last replies seem odd..... you're using Carr's deficiencies from last year to explain problems he had two seasons ago... two seasons ago..



If you think about it, this is the first time our guys have had to deal with any sort of adversity. They were expected to win these first two games and failed. This is new. How they respond will determine Caper's future and the team's reputation.

I support them of course, but I do have a few gripes:

-When was the last time He stares down his receivers too much. Carr did a pump fake?

-DD still goes down with only one arm on the ball.

-90% of our play calling is run on 1st and 2nd down and then try to pass for a first down. NO imagination. Screen dumps are not opening up the offense.

-Carr seems to give up too easy on his receivers and dumps to DD. Effective, but I wished he'd let Johnson try to go get it more.

-Where is the blitz? I can't remember the last time I saw an all-out blitz by our "hard to recognize the blitz" D.

Also, in my eyes, our guys are playing soft. It seems like the other team always hits harder and plays nastier (but fair).

To me, all of these are coaching issues. I feel like we're on the road to being respected in another two or three years, but not this year. I don't think its possible with Capers' coaching, he will need more time to work with the guys because he's not the type that gets quick results.

two seasons ago...

chuckm
02-10-2006, 12:07 PM
also, DD is a dump off....he just swings to the flat...he is the last option.

eureka, we have agreement .... I expect that we differ on the causes of this effect (although I'll keep my mouth shut rather than risk the wrath of the Carr bashers) ... I suspect, but don't know this to be fact, that Carr did not begin his pro career with the mindset of "first option isn't open so dump it" ... was Billy Miller his first option on the first TD against the Cowboys?

Vinny
02-10-2006, 01:24 PM
was Billy Miller his first option on the first TD against the Cowboys?Billy Miller was the safety valve in the first year. Corey Bradford was the first option. They moved to using Dom Davis as the SV after the first and second seasons. Then Miller went to a 'middle option' in the progression and he dissappeared from the offense at this point too. Kinda brings my point full circle.

chuckm
02-10-2006, 02:07 PM
Kinda brings my point full circle.

you're reaching ..... but that's cool ..... the breeze is nice ....

thunderkyss
02-10-2006, 02:28 PM
Billy Miller was the safety valve in the first year. Corey Bradford was the first option. They moved to using Dom Davis as the SV after the first and second seasons. Then Miller went to a 'middle option' in the progression and he dissappeared from the offense at this point too. Kinda brings my point full circle.
He disappeared, because we were using our TEs mostly for protection right??

Vinny
02-10-2006, 02:29 PM
He disappeared, because we were using our TEs mostly for protection right??I think the moral to my little story was that he disappeared because he was a middle option and no longer the last read/dump pass.

chuckm
02-10-2006, 02:33 PM
I think the moral to my little story was that he disappeared because he was a middle option and no longer the last read/dump pass.


is it remotely possible that a large percentage of the time, the check down occurred because he was about to get hit in the mouth? I know he makes a ton of money, knew what he was getting into in the NFL, all that jazz, but he's been sacked an unGodly number of times .... ALL of those 200 some odd sacks aren't from running out of bounds behind the line .... I firmly believe that he's shellshocked ... but is it incurable? Time will tell I guess ...

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 02:36 PM
ALL of those 200 some odd sacks aren't from running out of bounds behind the line .... I firmly believe that he's shellshocked ... but is it incurable? Time will tell I guess ...

Not picking on you, but picking on this logic that many people carry with two rhetorical questions. If a QB has a couple of concussions would that not have an impact on a pending contract? Mental fortitude is a must for this game, if it is lost does that not tone down the value of the player?

chuckm
02-10-2006, 02:44 PM
Not picking on you, but picking on this logic that many people carry with two rhetorical questions. If a QB has a couple of concussions would that not have an impact on a pending contract? Mental fortitude is a must for this game, if it is lost does that not tone down the value of the player?


You follow me from thread to thread cracking on me ..... don't deny it ...

well I'd answer like this .... the Texans had no "realistic" choice in this matter ... oh you can say OF COURSE THEY DID but IMO they didn't ... If they believe he can flourish under Kubiak, no matter what has come before, they had to do the 3 year option .... showing confidence in him at a time when it's needed most is A MUST if he's to be their QB down the road ... is is fiscally responible? probably not but the sports world is rife with examples of crazy money ..... at least he can throw from 1st to 3rd (wait that's another story) .... seriously though, I think they had 2 ways to go ... release him or embrace him ....

chuckm
02-10-2006, 02:54 PM
Not picking on you, but


and feel free to pick on me .... I've learned a lot by reading (and writing on) this forum over the last couple of years ... I'm one that's not clouded with the belief that I have more football knowledge than everyone else on this forum ...