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EllisUnit
03-24-2012, 03:14 PM
I have been hearing a lot of negativity, i was one of them, i finally had a chance to calm down and i have began to view all that is happening in a new light.

What the texans are doing is not near rebuilding, not gutting. They are simply helping the team for the future. Lets be honest if we would of tried to resign most of our starters that would of been great but imagine what our cap situation would of been next season and the season after that.

What they have done is really smart, they have dropped some players who had pretty high salaries that are easily replacable. That way we will also have money to resign some of our better players who will be FA come next off season.

Demeco was a good player for us for a long time, but after his injury and with the new 3-4 system he was virtually usless. Winston was a liability in the pass game and Brisel was ok but not irreplacable. I trust that Kubiak can plug whoever he dicides to into the O-line and pick up where we left off last season. Mario was a good DE when he was healthy, but when is the last time he was healthy ? It had been a while thats for sure.

I think we draft a WR in the draft who will be expected to start and i believe that we trade jacoby for a draft pick soon. We will be ok and i think or chance to win the superbowl now is just as good as it was before FA began.

thunderkyss
03-24-2012, 03:37 PM
What the texans are doing is not near rebuilding, not gutting. They are simply helping the team for the future.

What they have done is really smart, they have dropped some players who had pretty high salaries that are easily replacable. That way we will also have money to resign some of our better players who will be FA come next off season.

Most know that I'm usually the one bringing the koolaide to the party. This time however, I see an organization that got completely off guard and are now running to catch up.

If the Mario situation was the worst of it, I'd be ok with that, because it truly was a difficult situation. And though I am not the biggest fan of Eric Winston, I believe in Continuity. If we had someone on this team that could beat him out for the starting spot, that person should have been playing in the final games of the 2011 season.

Instead, it appears that we panicked & made some decisions we would rather not have.

Demeco was a good player for us for a long time, but after his injury and with the new 3-4 system he was virtually usless.

Most of us are not without some intelligence. We know who & what Demeco is. We traded him for mid round picks, which most of us don't feel is equal value. Imagine Cushing gets pregnant again, who would you rather have be the next man up? Demeco or Sharpton?

Making too much money? Again, that points to errors made by the F.O. to fix that error, they could have traded him for what appears to be low value, or they could have restructured his deal where his cap hit is much lower. I can understand a FA like Mario or even Myers not wanting to work with the team to get that cap number lower, but 'Meco? I'm not buying it.

Winston as well... I can't imagine him not restructuring... we're not talking about less money, only the way it is paid out, which 9 times out of 10 benefits the player as much as the team.

I think we draft a WR in the draft who will be expected to start and i believe that we trade jacoby for a draft pick soon. We will be ok and i think or chance to win the superbowl now is just as good as it was before FA began.

Everybody said the same about Jacoby for quite some time now. I'm beginning to think we have some pretty thick fans. Jacoby is here, Winston is not, Brisiel is not, Demeco is not, Dressen is not.... if they were going to get rid of Jacoby (which I think they should) they would have done it by now.

Jacoby making more money that Plaxico in 2011 didn't make sense. Making as much as Manningham in the 2012 season doesn't make sense. But we're going to have to wait & see how it plays out.

Especially since WR is no longer our top priority. Outside Pass Rusher, Offensive Guard, & ILB are at the top of our chart.

EllisUnit
03-24-2012, 03:45 PM
Most know that I'm usually the one bringing the koolaide to the party. This time however, I see an organization that got completely off guard and are now running to catch up.

If the Mario situation was the worst of it, I'd be ok with that, because it truly was a difficult situation. And though I am not the biggest fan of Eric Winston, I believe in Continuity. If we had someone on this team that could beat him out for the starting spot, that person should have been playing in the final games of the 2011 season.

Instead, it appears that we panicked & made some decisions we would rather not have.

Most of us are not without some intelligence. We know who & what Demeco is. We traded him for mid round picks, which most of us don't feel is equal value. Imagine Cushing gets pregnant again, who would you rather have be the next man up? Demeco or Sharpton?

Making too much money? Again, that points to errors made by the F.O. to fix that error, they could have traded him for what appears to be low value, or they could have restructured his deal where his cap hit is much lower. I can understand a FA like Mario or even Myers not wanting to work with the team to get that cap number lower, but 'Meco? I'm not buying it.

Winston as well... I can't imagine him not restructuring... we're not talking about less money, only the way it is paid out, which 9 times out of 10 benefits the player as much as the team.


Everybody said the same about Jacoby for quite some time now. I'm beginning to think we have some pretty thick fans. Jacoby is here, Winston is not, Brisiel is not, Demeco is not, Dressen is not.... if they were going to get rid of Jacoby (which I think they should) they would have done it by now.

Jacoby making more money that Plaxico in 2011 didn't make since. Making as much as Manningham in the 2012 season doesn't make since. But we're going to have to wait & see how it plays out.

Especially since WR is no longer our top priority. Outside Pass Rusher, Offensive Guard, & ILB are at the top of our chart.

I'm not saying they didnt panic, BUT i think with the moves they did make they were smart about it. I think they will wait until FA slows down and then see what kind of interest they get for Jacoby, maybe some other team out there is dumb like us and believe they can develope him, i hope so anyways.

WolverineFan
03-24-2012, 03:46 PM
We already need a WR and that's with Jacoby on the roster. He will not be cut. Mark it down.

Everyone who has been cut, traded, or let walk is replaceable. Their replacements are already on the roster and obviously the staff believes they can be serviceable. Now they need to add depth behind those guys to keep the status quo.

These moves over the last 2 weeks do not make us a better team, but I do not think they make us dramatically worse. This team would have made the Super Bowl last year if not for so many injuries to key players.

With Schaub back I still see us as a top 3 team in the AFC. Now we just need to fill the new holes in the roster and add a few playmakers via the draft.

thunderkyss
03-24-2012, 04:29 PM
Everyone who has been cut, traded, or let walk is replaceable. Their replacements are already on the roster and obviously the staff believes they can be serviceable. Now they need to add depth behind those guys to keep the status quo.

These moves over the last 2 weeks do not make us a better team, but I do not think they make us dramatically worse. This team would have made the Super Bowl last year if not for so many injuries to key players.

With Schaub back I still see us as a top 3 team in the AFC. Now we just need to fill the new holes in the roster and add a few playmakers via the draft.

I can buy that. One thing that can be said, is that the Texans are not in any place they haven't been before. I personally generally like how they handle the off-season, but this time, my panties are already bunched up.

bckey
03-24-2012, 04:52 PM
We already need a WR and that's with Jacoby on the roster. He will not be cut. Mark it down.

Mark this down. Jacoby will be a June 1st cut.

WolverineFan
03-24-2012, 04:55 PM
Mark this down. Jacoby will be a June 1st cut.

Is that an actual feeling/prediction? Or just you hoping/convincing yourself it will happen?

Runner
03-24-2012, 05:27 PM
I have been hearing a lot of negativity, i was one of them, i finally had a chance to calm down and i have began to view all that is happening in a new light.

What the texans are doing is not near rebuilding, not gutting. They are simply helping the team for the future. Lets be honest if we would of tried to resign most of our starters that would of been great but imagine what our cap situation would of been next season and the season after that.

What they have done is really smart, they have dropped some players who had pretty high salaries that are easily replacable. That way we will also have money to resign some of our better players who will be FA come next off season.

...


I am calm about my evaluation too, and I still have a negative viewpoint. The parts I have bolded are similar to what I've been saying. They are sacrificing this season, on purpose or not, to salary cap issues they created and to the seasons after the next.

The NFL is a "win now" league. Being able to re-sign Brown won't mean much if Schaub and/or Dre suffer more major injuries next year and don't ever get back to form. Probably neither happens, but Texans fans should be well aware by now that things rarely go as planned. Opportunity must be snatched when it is there. It disappears too fast for the team to run in place for a season.


Just win the season-after-next, baby.



...
Now we just need to fill the new holes in the roster and add a few playmakers via the draft.

Sounds easy. The truth is that it's easier said than done, especially for a team with cap issues.

Thorn
03-24-2012, 05:36 PM
Mark this down. Jacoby will be a June 1st cut.

That would be nice if it happens.

infantrycak
03-24-2012, 06:00 PM
Mark this down. Jacoby will be a June 1st cut.

They could have designated him a June 1st cut already. Each team can designate two players as June 1st cuts and release them earlier.

GP
03-24-2012, 06:08 PM
Mark this down. Jacoby will be a June 1st cut.

I agree. He's in a holding pattern, which is the only pattern he does correctly. Once the draft is over, and the FA market is whittled down, he'll be a June 1st cut and off our books. Period.

In regards to Runner's assessment that 2012 might be a season sacrificed by the Texans front office, the only way I see that happening is if they know 100% Matt Schaub is not going to be back in 2012, meaning they feel they are going to have to have a lot of stars line up in 2012 (to begin with) to win the South and make a push in the playoffs.

The only thing I don't understand about that assessment is that it doesn't compute with a team led by McNair, Smith, and Kubiak (and now Wade, as well). I cannot foresee these guys meeting in the bunker at Reliant and sadly contemplating the surrender of their season so easily.

That sort of defeatist attitude, IMO, is being projected onto them by the creator of said assessment. If you cannot understand or foresee HOW the Texans would rectify the loss of our own FAs, it becomes easy to think it was all pre-destined to begin with and it's a white flag of surrender by the Texans altogether. I think those dots are being wrongly connected, actually.

What is certain, anyways? 1. McNair is loyal; 2. Kubiak is loyal; 3. McNair trusts Gary and Wade and Rick so they ain't going anywhere soon; 4. We retained two vital pieces to our offense; 5. We've lost a few our own FAs because a team paid them substantially more than we would have, respective of their level of worth to their new teams; and 6. We still have FAs out there we can re-sign, we have a draft coming up, OTAs, a UDFA system to utilize after the draft, as well as the normal sign/cut/sign/cut system used by all 32 teams during training camp and pre-season.

FWIW, you guys all know that I thought McNair was a cheapskate deluxe. Well, 2011 changed my view dramatically. And even with the first few weeks of FA underway, I haven't reverted back to my Bob's A Cheapskate ways. I feel comfortable knowing both sides of the football have a coach who knows what they want and what works for what we have here.

You know what would have been depressing? The off-chance we had kept Frank Bush for 2011, missed the playoffs while witnessing the Titans win the AFCS and then having watched a prime opportunity fly by us because we didn't change gears on defense. Success creates new problems, McNair & Co. are all learning as they go, apparently. This is new territory for Bob.

Runner
03-24-2012, 06:24 PM
I did not say they have given up on the season. That is a misinterpretation of what I am saying. It makes it easier to point out that "my projections" are what the issue is though.

I am sure that they will try to win to the best of their abilities and resources. The resources (which are their responsibility to manage) are the problem. The reality of the cap issue is what makes this a difficult season to improve. They have lost contributing players, and it will be difficult to replace them when the cap limits their free agent moves and with one draft to work with.

Many posters state that these moves were great because it helps with 2013 free agent signings. 2012? Not so much.

drunkcookie
03-24-2012, 06:29 PM
Sounds easy. The truth is that it's easier said than done, especially for a team with cap issues

I am starting to believe more and more that the Texans do not have any "major" cap problems, but are managing it now and trying to avoid major cap problems in the future...

How do you get into major cap trouble? By overpaying a right tackle, who though a great run blocker is not a real good pass blocker... Another way is to spend top notch MLB money on an ILB who is for the most part a part-time player... Then of course you can pay your #2 TE starting money..

I can't say the Texans will be as good as they were next year, yet Kubs and staff give me a little confidence.. for example: where in the hell did Joel Dreesen come from? Dude wasn't jack squat til he was in this offense! Now he's probabaly going to be starting in Denver...

Myers? Got him for nothing more than a 6th round draft pick, he was on the scrap heap... Fast-forward to 2012 and Texans fans were crying in their beers at the thought of him signing elsewhere...

Arian Foster? He went from UDFA to top RB in the league...enough said...

I can't say everything will be fine, but i've seen enough to say that this staff can plug holes on the offense pretty well, and Wade should have the D good to go...

We shall see...

Carr Bombed
03-24-2012, 06:30 PM
They're not rebuilding, they're not gutting, they're simply restructuring. Guess what? Companies in every line of business have to do it to remain competitive and this is no diferent. Hell every successful team in the league has had to do it to remain competitive. The Steelers have done it, the Eagles have done it, the Pats have done it, and the Colts had PLENTY of tough decisions they had to make to remain competitive over the last decade.... but god forbid if the Houston Texans make big boy tough decisions themselves :rolleyes: Nope when the Texans do it, it clearly means they're forfeitting the up coming season and only care about winning 2 years from now. Yep, it has absolutey nothing to do with them wanting to restructure their books to make sure what happened this season doesn't happen again anytime soon and it also can't mean they're trying to realign their payroll to make sure they can lock up their young core players so they can compete on a yearly basis. It just means they want to win two years from now.

I also fail to see the logic in thinking that resigning Duane Brown won't mean much if Schaub or others get hurt.. The LT position is the 2nd most important position you have on your team and we have a pretty damn good young one. That guy needs to be locked up regardless of who's taking snaps under center, because you certainly aren't competing for much of anything with some Joe Blow at that position... we've already been there, done that, and have the T-shirt to prove it.

ObsiWan
03-24-2012, 06:33 PM
Most know that I'm usually the one bringing the koolaide to the party. This time however, I see an organization that got completely off guard and are now running to catch up.

Instead, it appears that we panicked & made some decisions we would rather not have.

You're half right. They did panic. But the "panic" was last year, not this year.

Smithiak knew they were dead men walking if they didn't at least win the division after the 6-10 showing in 2010. So they pulled out all the stops to shore up the defense last year with the Manning & Joseph acquisitions. They pushed money into the cap this year to make that happen.

The folks that had to be released this year boils down to us having to "pay the bill" for last year's success.

Welcome to success folks.

With free agency enabling every player to be a hired gun and the salary cap limiting how many home-grown hired guns each team gets to retain, this is how it's going to be. Truth is that we'll only be able to keep 15-20 high paid to moderately high paid performers on the team each season. The quality of our draft picks, fill-ins, and up-and-comers will determine whether we have continued success.

As other posters have noted, the Pats, Steelers, Giants, and others have been operating this way for a while. From year to year they pick and chose who they keep and who they let walk. This is new territory for us.

Runner
03-24-2012, 06:58 PM
They're not rebuilding, they're not gutting, they're simply restructuring. Guess what?
...



I guess:

Sometimes restructuring means a step back, or no improvement, before a step forward.


It's a simple concept, really. I don't expect fan(atic)s to agree it is happening. I think the anger its mention brings out is funny in a ridiculous sort of way though.

Playoffs
03-24-2012, 07:02 PM
But the "panic" was last year, not this year.Yep, and it was a good gamble. With Schaub we had a real chance at the SB. Paying for the gamble now a bit, but I'd do it again.

Welcome to success folks.Good teams lose good players. We got a little "cap trapped" but it's SOP for elite teams.

Runner
03-24-2012, 07:09 PM
You're half right. They did panic. But the "panic" was last year, not this year.

Smithiak knew they were dead men walking if they didn't at least win the division after the 6-10 showing in 2010. So they pulled out all the stops to shore up the defense last year with the Manning & Joseph acquisitions. They pushed money into the cap this year to make that happen.

The folks that had to be released this year boils down to us having to "pay the bill" for last year's success.

...

As other posters have noted, the Pats, Steelers, Giants, and others have been operating this way for a while. From year to year they pick and chose who they keep and who they let walk. This is new territory for us.

Good point that they had to make up for a lot of defensive missteps from previous seasons last year and the bill is due now. That does imply everything isn't quite perfect though.

I know it's fun to think the Texans are the Pats and Steelers, but have any teams ever stumbled entering this "new territory"?

welsh texan
03-24-2012, 07:37 PM
You can put me right in the happy-clapper camp right now.

I have my concerns about some of the losses, but at the same time I can see the reasoning behind every single one of them.

Myers and Foster were the two most important FA's, we signed them both.

Mario got way more than he was worth to us, would have been a great piece to have but a luxury we can do without.

Briesel got $4m, above what I'd consider him to be worth to us, we have a well established backup in Caldwell, who has a fair amount of starting experience, and I'd expect us to draft competition for him in camp. Shame to lose MB but I can understand it.

Dreessen was a backup who made very few yards, and went unmarked in goal-line situations, that hints to me it was as much about scheme as ability, and we have Graham who supposedly has great hands and will likely either draft competition, or move Casey back and won't miss a beat. I'm fine with this.

Ryans, its a great shame to lose such a good locker room guy, but the guy isn't what he was, and doesn't play fit in on a lot of snaps. Finding a replacement does worry a little but to save $9m in 2013 is huge for us, its going to tie up our LT. It makes sense to do it, and it makes even more sense to do it now, best of luck to him.

Winston, another guy who's been a great servant, sad to see him go. He has his weaknesses and was being paid as if he didn't, we have a guy backing him up who we've spent plenty of time on, and again, we will likely draft some camp competition.

I'm not about to get too upset about this offseason right now, in a perfect world we wouldn't have lost any of them and simply strengthened by getting healthier for next season, I know its a win-now league, but who's to say they can't be just as good or better next season? Say they have a draft on the level of the '06 draft, 2 great OL, a great WR as opposed to OD, a great OLB and a great ILB?

Thats pretty much what the '06 draft got us, you'd rather not rely on getting that but at the same time I see guys already on the roster who have starting experience at ILB, OT, and OG, they may have their weaknesses but it isn't like we couldn't live with the level of talent they have.

As for the money saving side, great job, the only other move I'd make is to cut Jacoby, and again I'd do it now rather than wait a year and get rid of the dead money now.

Its not like we just went and lost our QB, C, TE & WR to FA as the Colts have. That is cleaning house, moving on a few guys who were great team players but who's contracts have outgrown their value isn't cleaning house, its making smart moves before they begin to hurt you.

I might be proven wrong in 6 months time, but between the fact that there is no point in getting worked up about it now, and that I can see all the reasoning behind every move, I'm not about to start getting all upset.

Edit; I just noticed that I joined this forum in Feb 05, I think in 04 I began to casually watch games, I think there may have been a late night game on TV that was the first time I got to watch the Texans live, and at the end of that season I decided to properly get into it and join this forum to learn more. If I survived that particular time in our history at the earliest stage of my fandom, I doubt there is anything coming that will top it next year! Chill out peeps.

ThaShark316
03-24-2012, 08:19 PM
Texans will become elite when they take multiple years off from big spending in Free Agency. I can only hope that we are done with huge spending. J-Jo and Manning needs to be it for the next 4 yrs.

DocBar
03-24-2012, 08:35 PM
I am calm about my evaluation too, and I still have a negative viewpoint. The parts I have bolded are similar to what I've been saying. They are sacrificing this season, on purpose or not, to salary cap issues they created and to the seasons after the next.

The NFL is a "win now" league. Being able to re-sign Brown won't mean much if Schaub and/or Dre suffer more major injuries next year and don't ever get back to form. Probably neither happens, but Texans fans should be well aware by now that things rarely go as planned. Opportunity must be snatched when it is there. It disappears too fast for the team to run in place for a season.


Just win the season-after-next, baby.




Sounds easy. The truth is that it's easier said than done, especially for a team with cap issues.I don't follow the logic behind this thinking. Brown has turned into an excellent LT and is still young. You don't let those guys walk if you can help it. Regardless of who is playing QB, RB or WR, they need protection and time or a hole to run through. Brown is an absolute no-brainer to re-sign. I hope they extend him and Cushing this season so they never even get a glimpse of FA.

The Texans are in a good position right now. As EllisUnit pointed out, the replacements on the OL are known quantities and there shouldn't be much of a learning curve there.
They need to draft for depth, with an eye on good contribution from the early round picks and keep making good FA decisions.

dinkatoid
03-24-2012, 08:57 PM
The Houston Chronicle reported a bit back that "The Texans would like to extend the contracts of OLB Connor Barwin and LT Duane Brown before the start of the 2012 season." The Rotoworld link to it is here: http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5267/connor-barwin

When I started reading things like this, I am inclined to believe what many have said in this thread: this was not about us being in a bad situation now, but preparing for the future. It would have been nice to keep everyone, but then who do we lose down the road cause of this? They made choices and decided who was the most expendable, and then made sacrifices. Nobody wanted to do it, but with a hard cap, it has to be done sometimes.

As for DeMeco, it really is odd to me that people are saying he was not traded for enough value. The problem is value is perceived - we think he is worth a lot because of what we have seen him do. The problem is that he is making a lot of money and after the injury and scheme change, there are some question marks. Teams knew that we would probably have to get rid of him at some point. Why offer an equal trade? If they don't, he probably has to be released in a year or two, and the team can get him there with no compensation.

You see this quite a bit in basketball at the trade deadline - some star player gets traded for pennies on the dollar. This is because they know there is no other choice but to risk losing them for nothing. I don't think we wanted to get rid of Ryans like this, but the Texans had to know the longer we waited, the more his value went down. If we were going to make a move, we had to do it, and we got the best that was offered for it. From Rotoworld: " Considering Ryans $5.9 million salary, the Texans' haul was as much as could reasonably be expected. "
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3657/demeco-ryans

Also, just my 2 cents on Jacoby: he will be here for the rest of this season. The problem is we have 3 WRs right now. Even if we draft one, we might still have to find 1 more. I just don't think the texans want to add another empty roster spot to the list - they have enough spots to fill with the draft right now.

thunderkyss
03-24-2012, 09:06 PM
You're half right. They did panic. But the "panic" was last year, not this year.

Smithiak knew they were dead men walking if they didn't at least win the division after the 6-10 showing in 2010. So they pulled out all the stops to shore up the defense last year with the Manning & Joseph acquisitions. They pushed money into the cap this year to make that happen.


We're in cap hell for what? Jjo?

Last year's rookies aren't getting paid squat. Neither is Cushing. We've got a few studs on this team that are making healthy salaries. If the numbers on this chart aren't correct, then we've made a bad habit of overpaying mediocre players.
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n634/G27RR/texanscapsmall03-14-2012-1.jpg

To pour salt on open wound, notice Jacoby's 2012 cap number versus Andre's & tell me something ain't wrong.

ObsiWan
03-24-2012, 09:10 PM
This doesn't tell me what the cap situ was during the 2010 season or going into the 2011 offseason OR what cap changes were made to bring Manning and Joseph (and sign 1st rounder Watt) on board.

Without that data neither of us has a basis for discussion.

I know I heard that a couple of our stars restructured their deals to make cap room to sign those guys.

infantrycak
03-24-2012, 09:21 PM
This doesn't tell me what the cap situ was during the 2010 season or going into the 2011 offseason OR what cap changes were made to bring Manning and Joseph (and sign 1st rounder Watt) on board.

Without that data neither of us has a basis for discussion.

I know I heard that a couple of our stars restructured their deals to make cap room to sign those guys.

Not only that but the numbers aren't making sense with other reports.

For example, TK's source is reporting a $4.5+ mil cap hit for 2012. The reports were a three year $10.5 mil contract with this year's salary at $3 mil. To get to a $4.5 mil cap hit the signing bonus would have to be $4.5 mil. But $4 mil next year, plus $3 mil this year, plus $4.5 mil signing bonus, plus his salary last year adds up to a more than $10.5.

redwhiteblue
03-24-2012, 10:03 PM
All I have learned from this off season is that Texan fans are unrealistic. They want 4 pro bowl linebackers. They want 3 all pros on the defensive line. They want 2 shut down corners and 2 ball hawking safeties that never miss a tackle. They want not only an elite running back but his back up to be a 1000 yard rusher too. They want a top 5 qb, and lots of fast wide receivers. They want all 5 positions on the offensive line to all stay together for max salary. About the only thing texan fans don't want is tight ends. And they want all of these players to fit under the salary cap for the next 6 years.

redwhiteblue
03-24-2012, 10:05 PM
And the front office is not allowed to miss on a draft pick. They must all be home runs and diamonds in the rough

thunderkyss
03-24-2012, 10:55 PM
My point, is that we are in "cap hell" & we've got two, maybe three All-pro's on the roster.

That does not sound like fiscal responsibility.

bckey
03-24-2012, 11:22 PM
Is that an actual feeling/prediction? Or just you hoping/convincing yourself it will happen?

I guess I could ask you the same thing.

EllisUnit
03-24-2012, 11:53 PM
My point, is that we are in "cap hell" & we've got two, maybe three All-pro's on the roster.

That does not sound like fiscal responsibility.

2 maybe 3 all Pros. Here is a list of all pro off the top of my head

Foster, Schaub, AJ, JoJo, Daniel Manning

and lets not forget all the politics in the NFL, look at ray lewis did he deserve to go to the pro bowl over cushing ? Hell no. so i would add

Cushing, A. Smith, Myers, D. Brown, O.D, Watt, Barwin

i think our roster is still way more solid than you seem to think it is. We are not in cap hell ANYMORE, and we wont be next season either due to all the cuts and trades we have made this season !

DocBar
03-24-2012, 11:57 PM
2 maybe 3 all Pros. Here is a list of all pro off the top of my head

Foster, Schaub, AJ, JoJo, Daniel Manning

and lets not forget all the politics in the NFL, look at ray lewis did he deserve to go to the pro bowl over cushing ? Hell no. so i would add

Cushing, A. Smith, Myers, D. Brown, O.D, Watt, Barwin

i think our roster is still way more solid than you seem to think it is. We are not in cap hell ANYMORE, and we wont be next season either due to all the cuts and trades we have made this season !I love it when prudent financial moves are also smart football moves. I mean this in the context of cutting Winston, not re-signing Briseil and trading Ryans.

Thorn
03-25-2012, 12:38 AM
I love it when prudent financial moves are also smart football moves. I mean this in the context of cutting Winston, not re-signing Briseil and trading Ryans.

Rick Smith and Kubiak both were rookies at their respective jobs when they first came here. Personally, I think it took them to long to get their acts togeather, but they have built a good team. Keeping Wade Phillips was the best thing they did this offseason. That and signing Foster and Myers.

DocBar
03-25-2012, 12:51 AM
Rick Smith and Kubiak both were rookies at their respective jobs when they first came here. Personally, I think it took them to long to get their acts togeather, but they have built a good team. Keeping Wade Phillips was the best thing they did this offseason. That and signing Foster and Myers.Don't forget letting MW walk. :spy:

aussie_texan
03-25-2012, 01:01 AM
All I have learned from this off season is that Texan fans are unrealistic. They want 4 pro bowl linebackers. They want 3 all pros on the defensive line. They want 2 shut down corners and 2 ball hawking safeties that never miss a tackle. They want not only an elite running back but his back up to be a 1000 yard rusher too. They want a top 5 qb, and lots of fast wide receivers. They want all 5 positions on the offensive line to all stay together for max salary. About the only thing texan fans don't want is tight ends. And they want all of these players to fit under the salary cap for the next 6 years.

Isn't this what every fan of every team in every sport wants!

Its our right as fans to demand the best its what hopefully keeps the FO honest.

Im not saying we should have signed all these guys we lost this off-season because i think the FO have done everything correct for the franchise.

but still has fans we demand perfection even if it is unobtainable !!!

thunderkyss
03-25-2012, 01:16 AM
2 maybe 3 all Pros. Here is a list of all pro off the top of my head

Foster, Schaub, AJ, JoJo, Daniel Manning

and lets not forget all the politics in the NFL, look at ray lewis did he deserve to go to the pro bowl over cushing ? Hell no. so i would add

Cushing, A. Smith, Myers, D. Brown, O.D, Watt, Barwin

i think our roster is still way more solid than you seem to think it is. We are not in cap hell ANYMORE, and we wont be next season either due to all the cuts and trades we have made this season !

You seem to be confusing the All-Pro team for the All-Homer team.

& I'm not talking about Pro-Bowls either.

I think we've got a solid team, not a $120M dollar team.

If you count second teamers, we've got 4 All-Pros (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=capress-fbn_all_pro_roster-16213683). Duane Brown, Brian Cushing, Arian Foster, & Jonathan Joseph. All second team.

Runner
03-25-2012, 01:56 AM
I don't follow the logic behind this thinking. Brown has turned into an excellent LT and is still young. You don't let those guys walk if you can help it. Regardless of who is playing QB, RB or WR, they need protection and time or a hole to run through. Brown is an absolute no-brainer to re-sign. I hope they extend him and Cushing this season so they never even get a glimpse of FA.

The Texans are in a good position right now. As EllisUnit pointed out, the replacements on the OL are known quantities and there shouldn't be much of a learning curve there.
They need to draft for depth, with an eye on good contribution from the early round picks and keep making good FA decisions.

I'll help you understand my logic. Yes Duane Brown is an important player, I didn't say he wasn't. That doesn't mean re-signing him is the number one goal the team should have. Most teams are shooting for the Super Bowl next season, not locking up top notch left tackles in another year. Just because the Texans are apparently opening up a lot of cap space for next off-season doesn't mean this is a successful off-season.

I know some people are being deliberately obtuse or just looking for small parts of my posts to twist around to show my statements are wrong and illogical, or to "prove" that I am too stupid to realize we can't sign All-Pros at every position. Guess what - I get it. I know the Texans can't keep all of their players and shouldn't. My point is that they may likely be less competitive next year, judging from the early effects of free agency.

Here is some logic I don't understand. The Texans get to the playoffs once, lose some talented and contributing players because of the salary cap issues, and that proves that the team is just fine and is like the Patriots and Steelers.

Why are they more like them then teams that haven't won multiple - or any - Super Bowls and face salary cap issues?

Rey
03-25-2012, 01:59 AM
I'll help you understand my logic. Yes Duane Brown is an important player, I didn't say he wasn't. That doesn't mean re-signing him is the number one goal the team should have. Most teams are shooting for the Super Bowl next season, not locking up top notch left tackles in another year. Just because the Texans are apparently opening up a lot of cap space for next off-season doesn't mean this is a successful off-season.

I think some people are being deliberately obtuse or just looking for small parts of my posts to twist around to show my statements are wrong and illogical, or to "prove" that I am too stupid to realize we can't sign All-Pros at every position.

Here is some logic I don't understand. The Texans get to the playoffs once, lose some talented and contributing players because of the salary cap issues, and that proves that the team is just fine and is like the Patriots and Steelers.

Why are they more like them then teams that haven't won multiple - or any - Super Bowls and face salary cap issues?

I think the talent on the team definitely helped, but the texans made the play offs last year because they finally got a competent d coordinator.

Runner
03-25-2012, 02:02 AM
I think the talent on the team definitely helped, but the texans made the play offs last year because they finally got a competent d coordinator.

Note - I was editing my post when you quoted it, so it doesn't look the same.

Rey
03-25-2012, 02:09 AM
Note - I was editing my post when you quoted it, so it doesn't look the same.

Which player that we have lost do you think will leave the biggest gap? Or which player do you think will be the hardest to replace?

Also, do you think it's possible that will get better in other areas (like wr or guys that were rookies get better) and maybe off set some of the drop off (if there is any) ?

Rey
03-25-2012, 02:14 AM
Note - I was editing my post when you quoted it, so it doesn't look the same.

Which player that we have lost do you think will leave the biggest gap? Or which player do you think will be the hardest to replace?

Also, do you think it's possible that will get better in other areas (like wr or guys that were rookies get better) and maybe off set some of the drop off (if there is any) ?

DocBar
03-25-2012, 02:47 AM
I'll help you understand my logic. Yes Duane Brown is an important player, I didn't say he wasn't. That doesn't mean re-signing him is the number one goal the team should have. Most teams are shooting for the Super Bowl next season, not locking up top notch left tackles in another year. Just because the Texans are apparently opening up a lot of cap space for next off-season doesn't mean this is a successful off-season.

I know some people are being deliberately obtuse or just looking for small parts of my posts to twist around to show my statements are wrong and illogical, or to "prove" that I am too stupid to realize we can't sign All-Pros at every position. Guess what - I get it. I know the Texans can't keep all of their players and shouldn't. My point is that they may likely be less competitive next year, judging from the early effects of free agency.

Here is some logic I don't understand. The Texans get to the playoffs once, lose some talented and contributing players because of the salary cap issues, and that proves that the team is just fine and is like the Patriots and Steelers.

Why are they more like them then teams that haven't won multiple - or any - Super Bowls and face salary cap issues?I guess we just disagree on the fundamental idea.
I think the team has actually improved, overall, this offseason. The biggest loss is Ryans' leadership. Wade will pick up the slack there.

kiwitexansfan
03-25-2012, 03:01 AM
I guess we just disagree on the fundamental idea.
I think the team has actually improved, overall, this offseason. The biggest loss is Ryans' leadership. Wade will pick up the slack there.

How has the team improved, we have lost numerous starters and added no free agents. Even if you believe we have pieces that can step in and do better jobs, the team at the very least has gotten worse for loss of depth.

drunkcookie
03-25-2012, 10:55 AM
My point, is that we are in "cap hell" & we've got two, maybe three All-pro's on the roster.

That does not sound like fiscal responsibility.

I think you're helping to argue Smithiak's case here... This FAgency they're trying to avoid the overpaying, so they're really managing the cap in front of our eyes...

A lot of people complaining about this "cap hell" are at the same time pissed because the Texans are making the tough decisions to help avoid all out cap hell in the future...

The reactions to Dreesen being allowed to walk and Ryans being traded are perfect examples.. People are so pissed that Smithiak won't pay our #2 TE starting money, and that we won't pay our part-time ILB elite LB money, yet they also ***** about Smithiak managing the cap poorly... What these people are calling for is more poor managing of the cap...

You want to talk about fiscal responsibility? I think they're showing some right now by refusing to overpay average players... You guys cannot have it both ways...

As i've said, a prime example of wanting the cake and eating it too...

EllisUnit
03-25-2012, 11:08 AM
You seem to be confusing the All-Pro team for the All-Homer team.

& I'm not talking about Pro-Bowls either.

I think we've got a solid team, not a $120M dollar team.

If you count second teamers, we've got 4 All-Pros (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=capress-fbn_all_pro_roster-16213683). Duane Brown, Brian Cushing, Arian Foster, & Jonathan Joseph. All second team.

All Pros according to who ??? This is all opinon if u are talking about NFL all Pro, we have a bunch of impact players on our team besides the few that we let go, and we dont have a 120 million dollar team, we actually do have cap room now.

so the argument about all pros on the team is just not a case for anything. I would rather have a full starting defense full of solid players who can play their position good instead of 5 all pros and the rest scrubs.

Runner
03-25-2012, 11:22 AM
Which player that we have lost do you think will leave the biggest gap? Or which player do you think will be the hardest to replace?

Also, do you think it's possible that will get better in other areas (like wr or guys that were rookies get better) and maybe off set some of the drop off (if there is any) ?

I hesitate to say where the biggest hole is, because then I will be told how a particular move makes sense by itself. My point has been we have multiple holes now, and limited resources to fill them all. I am interested to see how the OL and WRs shake out. For instance, if Dre gets hurt again, "next man up" isn't so catchy if that man is Jacoby Jones.

The area we will get better is easy for me. Quarterback, assuming Schaub is healthy.

welsh texan
03-25-2012, 12:14 PM
I hesitate to say where the biggest hole is, because then I will be told how a particular move makes sense by itself. My point has been we have multiple holes now, and limited resources to fill them all. I am interested to see how the OL and WRs shake out. For instance, if Dre gets hurt again, "next man up" isn't so catchy if that man is Jacoby Jones.

The area we will get better is easy for me. Quarterback, assuming Schaub is healthy.

Even if Schaub isn't healthy, you have to assume TJ is better than last season given a full off-season.

Answering the previous question, I do think the personnel we have kept will improve over the offseason, you have to assume that, especially when the areas we've lost starters are positions we've been good at coaching for longer than just since Wade's been here too, we've always got the maximum out of our LB's in the Smithiak era.

Thats why I'm not going to worry yet, it isn't even as if we haven't seen drafts where the number of holes we have have been filled with starters previously, not that I feel we have to bank on that.

Just say we improve 2 starting slots through the draft, and get good backups elsewhere, you're only relying on 2 or maybe 3 of the guys who were backups last season to take significant snaps.

If the whole draft is a complete bust, then yeah, we may have a problem with overall talent at a few spots, if we hit on a couple of positions in the draft, we'll be fine.

I know why you and others are worried Runner, we've lost some starters, some leadership and some depth. We haven't really lost that many pieces though, and have the chance to get better through the draft, and have plenty of quality depth to compete for the spots as well.

thunderkyss
03-25-2012, 12:50 PM
I'll help you understand my logic.

Here is some logic I don't understand. The Texans get to the playoffs once, lose some talented and contributing players because of the salary cap issues, and that proves that the team is just fine and is like the Patriots and Steelers.

Why are they more like them then teams that haven't won multiple - or any - Super Bowls and face salary cap issues?

Good question. But the Steelers are in cap hell, same as us. But, you can look at that roster & see why. They paid a lot of players a lot of money & those players are getting a little long in the tooth. They got their money's worth.

The Patriots have a QB & nothing else. They also have cap room to manuever if the wanted to & they've got the draft picks to move up or down to get the players they want & not settle for the players they can get.

thunderkyss
03-25-2012, 01:07 PM
I think the talent on the team definitely helped, but the texans made the play offs last year because they finally got a competent d coordinator.

I think our schedule & the lock out helped as well. Had Frank Bush been here & played as aggressively as he did in 2009, I think we would have had the same results.

Next year's opponents will be much more formidable than the majority of the teams we played in 2011. If Wade continues to let the guys play aggressively, giving up big plays every now & then, I think we'll do pretty good.

If he starts playing prevent defense for 3 Qtrs trying to stop the big plays... we'll get our asses handed to us again.

badboy
03-25-2012, 02:57 PM
I have been hearing a lot of negativity, i was one of them, i finally had a chance to calm down and i have began to view all that is happening in a new light.

What the texans are doing is not near rebuilding, not gutting. They are simply helping the team for the future. Lets be honest if we would of tried to resign most of our starters that would of been great but imagine what our cap situation would of been next season and the season after that.

What they have done is really smart, they have dropped some players who had pretty high salaries that are easily replacable. That way we will also have money to resign some of our better players who will be FA come next off season.

Demeco was a good player for us for a long time, but after his injury and with the new 3-4 system he was virtually usless. Winston was a liability in the pass game and Brisel was ok but not irreplacable. I trust that Kubiak can plug whoever he dicides to into the O-line and pick up where we left off last season. Mario was a good DE when he was healthy, but when is the last time he was healthy ? It had been a while thats for sure.

I think we draft a WR in the draft who will be expected to start and i believe that we trade jacoby for a draft pick soon. We will be ok and i think or chance to win the superbowl now is just as good as it was before FA began.

what a difference a day makes for a day dreaming boy...


#2 WR, starting OG and ILB replacement for Ryans would be nice. Maybe Caldwell could be backup center but me, I'm praying for Myers to start every game

badboy
03-25-2012, 03:33 PM
We have recently become younger. We need to prepare to replace Andre Johnson and Matt Schaub even if Matt is re-signed. TJ may be the eventual replacement but that is more a fantasy than a dream. This does not have to be done this draft but soon.

Norg
03-25-2012, 03:34 PM
ikeep telling my selfs its not like Winston Dressen and Brisles are Pro bowl players its not like they can be replaced or even upgraded

we got a 4 Player Depth at guard

hopefully Butler can plug right in

Decent depth at TE

the only stud i think we need is another OLB

thunderkyss
03-25-2012, 07:49 PM
You want to talk about fiscal responsibility? I think they're showing some right now by refusing to overpay average players... You guys cannot have it both ways...


Doesn't change the fact that they screwed up to get to where we are now, which is what we've been saying, they're scrambling to fix their screw ups.


...and we dont have a 120 million dollar team, we actually do have cap room now.

so the argument about all pros on the team is just not a case for anything. I would rather have a full starting defense full of solid players who can play their position good instead of 5 all pros and the rest scrubs.

My whole argument is predicated on our team being in "cap hell" If the posters saying we had $30M in cap space as of March 13 are correct, then I'm as happy as a clam.

We've got nothing to go on but rumors so far. So we've got a bunch of ifs..... if the Texan didn't offer Mario $14M because they didn't think it fiscally responsible, I'm good with that. If they didn't offer it because they don't have the money.. not so much.

If they thought they could do better than Eric Winston, Mike Brisiel, & Joel Dressen, I'm fine with that as well. If they couldn't afford to bring those players along.... not so much.

If they thought Demeco Ryans has seen his best days & thought it was time to move on, I'm fine with that as well. If they think Ryans is on his way to a full recovery, but couldn't afford to pay him what he's worth..... not so much.

However, everything that has happened since March 13 points to serious cap mismanagement. It says we have already over-paid a bunch of mediocre players, $120M dollars worth. We've got 4 second team All-Pros on this team, none are our QB or an outside pass rusher....

If you don't see a problem with that, I don't know what to tell you.


I've said my peace.

Lucky
03-25-2012, 08:20 PM
Doesn't change the fact that they screwed up to get to where we are now, which is what we've been saying, they're scrambling to fix their screw ups.
I can't believe I'm the one asking this, but exactly what are the Texans' "screw ups" that put them in this position? What contracts are so atrocious that they put the team in "cap hell"? I look at the guys who are getting the most $$$ (AJ, Antonio, Joseph, Schaub) and they've pretty much earned their money. Foster and Myers earned their respective raises. I see this more as a function of having a lot of good players and not enough salary cap to pay them all.

When I see the Texans screwing up, I won't be shy about pointing it out. This isn't the first time a team has had to cut/trade/not re-sign players in order to get under the cap. The good teams find a way to continue to win. We'll see if the Texans are one of those "good teams".

Texecutioner
03-25-2012, 09:14 PM
All I have learned from this off season is that Texan fans are unrealistic. They want 4 pro bowl linebackers. They want 3 all pros on the defensive line. They want 2 shut down corners and 2 ball hawking safeties that never miss a tackle. They want not only an elite running back but his back up to be a 1000 yard rusher too. They want a top 5 qb, and lots of fast wide receivers. They want all 5 positions on the offensive line to all stay together for max salary. About the only thing texan fans don't want is tight ends. And they want all of these players to fit under the salary cap for the next 6 years.

You and your 60 posts are completely full of it. Not one person on this site has pushed any agenda like that or something that extreme. Nice try at exxaggeration, but it's completely false rhetoric.

Carr Bombed
03-25-2012, 09:27 PM
I can't believe I'm the one asking this, but exactly what are the Texans' "screw ups" that put them in this position? What contracts are so atrocious that they put the team in "cap hell"? I look at the guys who are getting the most $$$ (AJ, Antonio, Joseph, Schaub) and they've pretty much earned their money. Foster and Myers earned their respective raises. I see this more as a function of having a lot of good players and not enough salary cap to pay them all.

When I see the Texans screwing up, I won't be shy about pointing it out. This isn't the first time a team has had to cut/trade/not re-sign players in order to get under the cap. The good teams find a way to continue to win. We'll see if the Texans are one of those "good teams".

The Texans didn't "screw up" at all. They actually did the opposite.. a screw up would've been them not recognizing that they were bleeding on defense, thus not signing Manning or Joseph and make a scheme change to rectify the situation. It was that scheme change that made certain players expendable and not nearly worh their value. That scheme change is what led them to draft Brooks, which is what ended up making Mario Williams expendable and not worth nearly enough to us as he was to the bills. It was also that scheme change that made Demeco Ryans a highly over paid player when he was worth his contract in a 4-3 front.

If you want to point out a screw up , the screw up happened when they held on to the unproven defensive staffs for as long as they did. However it is now wrong to criticize them for correcting that mistake, a correction that has now forced us to part from certain players. If that's a screw up then I guess every GM in the leauge screws up. The Texans were pressed hard against the cap and had to make some tough decisions.. the same type of decisions that every other team also faces.

ObsiWan
03-25-2012, 09:31 PM
You seem to be confusing the All-Pro team for the All-Homer team.

& I'm not talking about Pro-Bowls either.

I think we've got a solid team, not a $120M dollar team.

If you count second teamers, we've got 4 All-Pros (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=capress-fbn_all_pro_roster-16213683). Duane Brown, Brian Cushing, Arian Foster, & Jonathan Joseph. All second team.

If you're speaking strictly All-Pros, how many teams have more than four on their roster? Hell, how many have four? As you said, not pro-bowlers but All-Pros.

And since you said "including second teamers" I would argue that Myers is 2nd team All-Pro at center and a healthy A.J. is second team All-Pro (at least) at WR.

ThaShark316
03-25-2012, 09:36 PM
You and your 60 posts are completely full of it. Not one person on this site has pushed any agenda like that or something that extreme. Nice try at exxaggeration, but it's completely false rhetoric.

He's right tho.

Dutchrudder
03-25-2012, 09:46 PM
You seem to be confusing the All-Pro team for the All-Homer team.

& I'm not talking about Pro-Bowls either.

I think we've got a solid team, not a $120M dollar team.

If you count second teamers, we've got 4 All-Pros (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=capress-fbn_all_pro_roster-16213683). Duane Brown, Brian Cushing, Arian Foster, & Jonathan Joseph. All second team.

^This. In what crazy alternate universe is Schaub considered an All-pro? Seriously, people really need to see Schaub for what he is, an above average QB who is a bargain at 8 mill a year. If he was scheduled to make 13 mill this year he would be Demeco'd.

Texecutioner
03-25-2012, 09:53 PM
He's right tho.

No, he is just as full of it as you are.

Carr Bombed
03-25-2012, 10:01 PM
^This. In what crazy alternate universe is Schaub considered an All-pro? Seriously, people really need to see Schaub for what he is, an above average QB who is a bargain at 8 mill a year. If he was scheduled to make 13 mill this year he would be Demeco'd.

Yep, but the problem is that even 2nd tier QBs (and Schaub is right at the top of the list of non elite QBs) still get paid a boat load of money.. they get paid more than "all pros" do at other positions and if Schaub stays healthy and has the type of year that he's more than capable of having (by no means is he some scrub either) it's going to take a lot of cash to bring him back.

And if Shaub was making 13 mil per he wouldn't be demeco'ed either.. QBs get overpaid all the time and if you have a live body at that position, teams are more than willing to eat it. It isn't even fair to compare Schaub to Demeco, the monetary value of the positions are on two complete different stratospheres. Demeco's cap hit alone is not what got him demeco'ed.. His cap hit plus the fact that he did not fit the system is what got him Demeco'ed. Schaub is still a highly productive player in the system that he plays in, where Demeco was not and that is the main reason why he no longer plays here.

redwhiteblue
03-25-2012, 10:43 PM
You and your 60 posts are completely full of it. Not one person on this site has pushed any agenda like that or something that extreme. Nice try at exxaggeration, but it's completely false rhetoric.

Really? Which player on this team are you happy with that is just average? Which position do the texans NOT need a probowler in?

Dutchrudder
03-26-2012, 12:04 AM
Yep, but the problem is that even 2nd tier QBs (and Schaub is right at the top of the list of non elite QBs) still get paid a boat load of money.. they get paid more than "all pros" do at other positions and if Schaub stays healthy and has the type of year that he's more than capable of having (by no means is he some scrub either) it's going to take a lot of cash to bring him back.

And if Shaub was making 13 mil per he wouldn't be demeco'ed either.. QBs get overpaid all the time and if you have a live body at that position, teams are more than willing to eat it. It isn't even fair to compare Schaub to Demeco, the monetary value of the positions are on two complete different stratospheres. Demeco's cap hit alone is not what got him demeco'ed.. His cap hit plus the fact that he did not fit the system is what got him Demeco'ed. Schaub is still a highly productive player in the system that he plays in, where Demeco was not and that is the main reason why he no longer plays here.

I don't know how you define your tiers, but my second tier has guys like Rivers, Romo, Eli Manning, Big Ben and Stafford ahead of Schaub. I'd say Schaub is about the 10th to 13th best QB currently in the league. I haven't thought enough about it to say whether or not I would rank him above guys like Vick, Cutler and Newton.

I really don't think Schaub would be worth the risk if he was making a ton of money next year. He only has about 1.5 million guaranteed this year, so if he's not expected to recover completely, he might get cut after preseason. Luckily he doesn't have a 10 mill bonus coming up this offseason, or he might get the axe prematurely.

Carr Bombed
03-26-2012, 12:21 AM
I don't know how you define your tiers, but my second tier has guys like Rivers, Romo, Eli Manning, Big Ben and Stafford ahead of Schaub. I'd say Schaub is about the 10th to 13th best QB currently in the league. I haven't thought enough about it to say whether or not I would rank him above guys like Vick, Cutler and Newton.

Whatever your/my definition/ranking is pretty irrelevent to the main points that were made.. It doesn't change the fact that as a QB, Schaub will be paid like all pros who play other positions and as a producive starting QB in this system he would not be treated like a LBer who doesn't fit our system, regardless if Schaub was overpaid or not. That was the main point, not what pecking order Schaub fits in. If the man stays healthy and is able to put up the type of production he's capable of putting up, he's going to get a boat load of cash. QBs get paid

DocBar
03-26-2012, 01:28 AM
I don't know how you define your tiers, but my second tier has guys like Rivers, Romo, Eli Manning, Big Ben and Stafford ahead of Schaub. I'd say Schaub is about the 10th to 13th best QB currently in the league. I haven't thought enough about it to say whether or not I would rank him above guys like Vick, Cutler and Newton.

I really don't think Schaub would be worth the risk if he was making a ton of money next year. He only has about 1.5 million guaranteed this year, so if he's not expected to recover completely, he might get cut after preseason. Luckily he doesn't have a 10 mill bonus coming up this offseason, or he might get the axe prematurely.No way would this happen. The guys that have been let go are replaceable and their replacements are already on the team. We saw last season that Yates isn't ready to be Schaub's full time replacement.
Schaub is among my top 10 QB's.

drunkcookie
03-26-2012, 10:01 AM
Doesn't change the fact that they screwed up to get to where we are now, which is what we've been saying, they're scrambling to fix their screw ups.


I wouldn't call paying DeMeco what they paid him when they did a screw up... But in 2012 he just isn't worth it... I wouldn't call refusing to pay the #2 TE starting money a sign of a screw up, i'd call it not overpaying...

I still maintain that some of what people are seeing as bad cap management is a result of Arian Foster... I'm guessing as recently as this past September the FO still wasn't positive they'd have to pay arguably the best RB in the league...

I also think it's the way the cap management has been done that has some people more pissed... Instead of doing some of this year's trimming last year and the rest this year, they did it all in one two week span... It just seems more urgent, like they're in a panic, when they probably knew last offseason they'd need to make these cuts (esspecially if they had to pay Arian)... It could have well been a deal where they said "Okay, we need to win this year, and i like our chances with these guys right now, so let's keep them all, which buys us more time to prepare their replacements and then trim the money next year all in one big dump." It was esspecially easy that way, seeing there was no cap last year and the cuts weren't required...

TexanBacker93
03-26-2012, 11:22 AM
I don't think they were caught off guard. I think they are looking at the rest of the division and know they can win again this year even with the movements they are making. They can bring in some young players to fill in depth or become key contributors. They now have more room going into next season to re-sign and extend Cushing, Barwin, Brown, etc. These are the core pieces they need to lock up to be the AFC South team to beat over the next 10 years. We have enough talent to win this division for a long time.

TexanBacker93
03-26-2012, 11:30 AM
Doesn't change the fact that they screwed up to get to where we are now, which is what we've been saying, they're scrambling to fix their screw ups.




My whole argument is predicated on our team being in "cap hell" If the posters saying we had $30M in cap space as of March 13 are correct, then I'm as happy as a clam.

We've got nothing to go on but rumors so far. So we've got a bunch of ifs..... if the Texan didn't offer Mario $14M because they didn't think it fiscally responsible, I'm good with that. If they didn't offer it because they don't have the money.. not so much.

If they thought they could do better than Eric Winston, Mike Brisiel, & Joel Dressen, I'm fine with that as well. If they couldn't afford to bring those players along.... not so much.

If they thought Demeco Ryans has seen his best days & thought it was time to move on, I'm fine with that as well. If they think Ryans is on his way to a full recovery, but couldn't afford to pay him what he's worth..... not so much.

However, everything that has happened since March 13 points to serious cap mismanagement. It says we have already over-paid a bunch of mediocre players, $120M dollars worth. We've got 4 second team All-Pros on this team, none are our QB or an outside pass rusher....

If you don't see a problem with that, I don't know what to tell you.


I've said my peace.

Can't it be both? It is fiscally responsible not to pay someone that kind of money that doesn't dominate games on a regular basis. It might be irresponsible to do it even if they do. As for having that kind of money available, the Texans have talented players that make good money. The teams that have a lot of cap room right now aren't typically the ones that were in the playoffs. I don't want to hear the Broncos mentioned, because it was the Chargers division to lose and once again Norv Turner did just that. They weren't a playoff caliber team. Everyone else, Buffalo, Washington, Tampa Bay, Seattle, Jacksonville were teams that were sitting home in January. I don't expect the Texans to be $20 million below in case they need to sign someone. You can't win and keep talented players happy, or even just keep them if you aren't spending the money.

Texecutioner
03-26-2012, 11:50 AM
Really? Which player on this team are you happy with that is just average? Which position do the texans NOT need a probowler in?

Your question isn't relevant to what you originally said which I called BS on. You went way overboard and stated that Texans fans wanted all these Pro Bowl LB's, LIneman, two shutdown CB's, and top players at every position practically and expected the team to be able to afford it. Not one person on this site has suggested that ever, and for someone who has hardly contributed to the site and hasn't been on here that long, I find it pretty ridiculous that they'd make such strong exaggerations like that regarding an entire fan base. You come off like someone who can't take it when management gets criticized for their moves they've made or lack thereof, so you choose to simply use hyperbole to get your point across.

redwhiteblue
03-26-2012, 12:51 PM
Your question isn't relevant to what you originally said which I called BS on. You went way overboard and stated that Texans fans wanted all these Pro Bowl LB's, LIneman, two shutdown CB's, and top players at every position practically and expected the team to be able to afford it. Not one person on this site has suggested that ever, and for someone who has hardly contributed to the site and hasn't been on here that long, I find it pretty ridiculous that they'd make such strong exaggerations like that regarding an entire fan base. You come off like someone who can't take it when management gets criticized for their moves they've made or lack thereof, so you choose to simply use hyperbole to get your point across.

Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better #2 cornerback than Kareem Jackson. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better #3 receiver than Jacoby Jones. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better linebacker core than Barwin, Cushing, reed, and player X. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have an offensive line better than Brown, Smith, Myers, Caldwell and Butler? Now tell me how unrealistic Texans fans have been and how the sky is falling and the texans are back to mediocrity conversations are out of line. It's time to support the Texans and the good team they have put on the field. I know there have been many years of suffering, and I was a part of it, but the Texans are good now, enjoy it while it lasts.

Dutchrudder
03-26-2012, 03:02 PM
Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better #2 cornerback than Kareem Jackson. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better #3 receiver than Jacoby Jones. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better linebacker core than Barwin, Cushing, reed, and player X. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have an offensive line better than Brown, Smith, Myers, Caldwell and Butler? Now tell me how unrealistic Texans fans have been and how the sky is falling and the texans are back to mediocrity conversations are out of line. It's time to support the Texans and the good team they have put on the field. I know there have been many years of suffering, and I was a part of it, but the Texans are good now, enjoy it while it lasts.

Ya know, if you actually responded to posts that said the things you claim to be contradicting, then you might have a point. Instead you continue to make straw men attacks at arguments that don't exist, while trying to frame it as if this entire board thought the way you portray them to be. Seriously, learn how to debate and discuss rather than throwing out sweeping generalizations smothered in hyperbole.

Texecutioner
03-26-2012, 03:13 PM
Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better #2 cornerback than Kareem Jackson. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better #3 receiver than Jacoby Jones. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better linebacker core than Barwin, Cushing, reed, and player X. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have an offensive line better than Brown, Smith, Myers, Caldwell and Butler? Now tell me how unrealistic Texans fans have been and how the sky is falling and the texans are back to mediocrity conversations are out of line. It's time to support the Texans and the good team they have put on the field. I know there have been many years of suffering, and I was a part of it, but the Texans are good now, enjoy it while it lasts.

You don't have a freaking clue what the Texans are. All you know is that they had one good season for the first time in 10 years or whatever. Funny how you "just know" that they're a great team, because of last season, but I've got news for you. Last season is over. There are teams that step up every year and surprise people and have a great season, and then end up going back to mediocrity or a bad team. The Chiefs did that just last season, the Dolphins did that after going 1-15, the Bengals did that a few seasons ago and then stunk it up after that. Did you just start watching the NFL or something, because you seem to suggest that we've hit the promised land because of one season? This team has only had one really good season under Kubiak and Rick Smith when they've been here for 6 seasons as a whole, so for you to insinuate like it's some given that they're a great team and that there might not be any reason for any concern just makes you sound like some homer who hasn't paid much attention to the "entire NFL" over the last 10 years. The fact is you don't know what the Texans will be until around week 6 of next season where they've been able to show what kind of team they'll be down the stretch. The success of NFL teams change every season.

The fact is the Texans have lost some very key players going into next season, and that is something that people will consider a loss going forward at least for the short term. WIll it stop the Texans from being a very good team?? It might. It might not as well, and maybe they continue on to playing very well. We'll see, but to play hyperbole just because you can't take it when the management gets criticized is weak.

Dutchrudder
03-26-2012, 03:13 PM
Whatever your/my definition/ranking is pretty irrelevent to the main points that were made.. It doesn't change the fact that as a QB, Schaub will be paid like all pros who play other positions and as a producive starting QB in this system he would not be treated like a LBer who doesn't fit our system, regardless if Schaub was overpaid or not. That was the main point, not what pecking order Schaub fits in. If the man stays healthy and is able to put up the type of production he's capable of putting up, he's going to get a boat load of cash. QBs get paid

Well, depending on how you rank Schaub, it does matter as to what his value is. If Demeco was making 3 million this year, I doubt he would have been moved in 2012, but he was set to make 8 million, so they had to do something. He was being paid like a pro-bowl MLB in a 4-3, when he isn't nearly as valuable as an ILB in a 3-4. In any case, if Schaub was scheduled to make 13 million or more this year, I could see the Texans looking to trade him and start TJ instead. The risk is significant given his injury, and money saved this year is money that can be used next year to retain other guys. I know QBs are difficult to replace, but if Schaub looks bad this preseason, he may be cut or traded just to spare that 7 million. We will need those dollars next year.


No way would this happen. The guys that have been let go are replaceable and their replacements are already on the team. We saw last season that Yates isn't ready to be Schaub's full time replacement.
Schaub is among my top 10 QB's.

I don't want to turn this into a "how good is Schaub" thread, but I wouldn't mind starting one in the NFL section on the subject of ranking QBs. Maybe I'll do that...

redwhiteblue
03-26-2012, 03:46 PM
Ya know, if you actually responded to posts that said the things you claim to be contradicting, then you might have a point. Instead you continue to make straw men attacks at arguments that don't exist, while trying to frame it as if this entire board thought the way you portray them to be. Seriously, learn how to debate and discuss rather than throwing out sweeping generalizations smothered in hyperbole.

I asked for examples for people to discredit what I said. So far no one has taken me up on my exercise. I actually think that is a good example of how to debate and discuss.

Texecutioner
03-26-2012, 03:54 PM
Ya know, if you actually responded to posts that said the things you claim to be contradicting, then you might have a point. Instead you continue to make straw men attacks at arguments that don't exist, while trying to frame it as if this entire board thought the way you portray them to be. Seriously, learn how to debate and discuss rather than throwing out sweeping generalizations smothered in hyperbole.

And that's just it. This is the typical hyperbolic stuff that certain posters just throw out there when they can't frame an argument at what is specifically being discussed. Sure there have been some criticisms by people on certain moves, but if you look across the board a lot of people are on opposite sides of arguments than what they normally have been in the past as far as this off season goes. I've seen several posters that have been highly critical of Rick Smith for years now, and all of a sudden after one good season they're out to defend this guy big time as if the first 5 seasons got completely erased from history. It's hilarious to me, but whatever. But then there are also guys that have been very defensive for Smith and Kubiak for years, but have been very upset with this off season and very vocal about it, especially on the Demeco Ryans trade. People have had very different opinions across the board this off season other than some of the previous seasons from my observations. There hasn't been any consistency with any stance or any certain posters that normally feel a certain way.

Dutchrudder
03-26-2012, 03:58 PM
I asked for examples for people to discredit what I said. So far no one has taken me up on my exercise. I actually think that is a good example of how to debate and discuss.

Let's see, this is the post that started your chain with Tex:

All I have learned from this off season is that Texan fans are unrealistic. They want 4 pro bowl linebackers. They want 3 all pros on the defensive line. They want 2 shut down corners and 2 ball hawking safeties that never miss a tackle. They want not only an elite running back but his back up to be a 1000 yard rusher too. They want a top 5 qb, and lots of fast wide receivers. They want all 5 positions on the offensive line to all stay together for max salary. About the only thing texan fans don't want is tight ends. And they want all of these players to fit under the salary cap for the next 6 years.

This is just silly. If someone actually said something like this in a post, then by all means retort. But chances are you read a few posts here and there by people who were upset that X player is gone, and have created a combination of unrealistic expectations. These "fans" that you speak of don't exist, because they are simply the amalgamation of a few posts you have decided reflect the board/fanbase/city as a whole. You're way off track here as there are plenty of people on this very board who have supported all or most of the free agency moves made by the Texans so far. That's where you are completely wrong on this. Yet you ask Tex to argue this fictitious strawman's argument against you so you can validate your claim, which isn't going to happen.

Runner
03-26-2012, 04:01 PM
I asked for examples for people to discredit what I said. So far no one has taken me up on my exercise. I actually think that is a good example of how to debate and discuss.

"Go ahead and this. Go ahead and that".

Frankly I didn't get more than three or four lines into that post before I moved on. There is usually enough reasonable content on here to read. I consider it a waste of time reading, much less responding to, what appears to be a belligerent post/poster.

Texan_Bill
03-26-2012, 04:07 PM
I want 4 pro bowl linebackers. I want 3 all pros on the defensive line. I want 2 shut down corners and 2 ball hawking safeties that never miss a tackle. I want not only an elite running back but his back up to be a 1000 yard rusher too. I want a top 5 qb, and lots of fast wide receivers. I want all 5 positions on the offensive line to all stay together for max salary. About the only thing texan_Bill doesn't want is tight ends. And I want all of these players to fit under the salary cap for the next 6 years.

All of that and add Hoooushmazili. Championship! :runaway:



:stirpot:

Runner
03-26-2012, 04:11 PM
Never mind.

thunderkyss
03-26-2012, 09:48 PM
Never mind.

Good post. To add to that, I'll repeat what I said in another post.

If the Texans are $20-$30 million under the cap & they are making these moves because they think it is for the better of the team..... I like it, I'm on board & I'll be serving the Koolaide.


If the Texans are $4-$6 million under the cap after the moves they have made & those moves were to get the team $4-$6M under the cap....



We need a new general-manager.

utahmark
03-26-2012, 09:56 PM
You seem to be confusing the All-Pro team for the All-Homer team.

& I'm not talking about Pro-Bowls either.

I think we've got a solid team, not a $120M dollar team.

If you count second teamers, we've got 4 All-Pros (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=capress-fbn_all_pro_roster-16213683). Duane Brown, Brian Cushing, Arian Foster, & Jonathan Joseph. All second team.

Is'nt 4 kinda of, a lot. How many all pro's are there? Around 50. There are 32 teams so each team should have one and 3/4s. It seems we have ours plus some other teams plus another half. That's not even counting some of our other players who have a great chance to be all pro's this year or have been in the past. Schaub, Daniels, Watt, Barwin, Myers, AJ. We have more talent than your giving us credit for.

TexanBacker93
03-28-2012, 05:52 PM
I find it hilarious (maybe too strong) that so many of the fans here want to rip the organization for trading Demeco and turn around and bash them for not trading Mario at the beginning of the season last year so we could get something for him. Yeah, we lose a little money this season with the Demeco trade, but imagine having to cut him next season because every team would know we had to get rid of him to sign Brown? Plus we get a chance to get more PT for his replacement.

As for not signing a bunch of free agents, I'd rather go with what we have on roster now. Add our players from the draft and maybe grab a couple of depth UDFAs or cheap vets. That way we could look at a few nice compensatory picks next season for losing Brisiel, Williams, Allen, and Dreessen. Maybe Vickers, too. I'd rather have extra picks then overpaying FAs right now.

There is a reason me and everyone else that comes here is doing what we are doing and not an NFL GM. Maybe it's blind homerism, but I trust the guys in charge to know more than anyone here. Even if they are awful I'll bet they know more.

bckey
05-02-2012, 01:40 PM
Mark this down. Jacoby will be a June 1st cut.


This is shameless and I feel bad. :kitten:

Joe Texan
05-02-2012, 05:22 PM
its always 0 for everybody at the start of the season. No one would be where they are right now if Jones had not muffed the punt but instead ran it back for 7. Cannot wait for the season to start

SteveSlaton20
05-03-2012, 12:44 PM
Demeco was a good player for us for a long time, but after his injury and with the new 3-4 system he was virtually usless.

Is it me or is this incredibly ignorant? If you watched the first half of the season or so, then yes, this might be correct. At the same time, he was still recovering from a terrible injury, and arm/injury. I don't think the system had ANYTHING to do with it. If you watched the later half of the season, especially DeMeco, you saw he was doing good/great. Especially in the playoffs, and especially against the Ravens in round 2.

I know we had to get rid of him because of his salary cap, but that's not what I'm arguing about. Give DeMeco a full healthy season in the 3-4 and he woulda been good. Either way, I still think we shoulda gotten a third rounder or more off of him.

Corrosion
05-03-2012, 03:15 PM
Is it me or is this incredibly ignorant?.

Nope , its pretty accurate IMO.


Ryans wasnt "Ryans" last season (bad hand had something to do with that).

His fit for the 3-4 is debatable.

His cost to production was sky freaking high. He played on ~30% of the snaps and was a liability in coverage. Cushing is going to be on the field in nickle and dime packages meaning Ryans wasnt going to see increased playing time. Paying $9m for a part time player doesnt make any sense when they were cash strapped and have a lot of young guy's coming up for new deals next season.


At least they got "something" for Ryans ..... What did Philly get for Samuels?!

Rey
05-03-2012, 03:23 PM
Nope , its pretty accurate IMO.


Ryans wasnt "Ryans" last season (bad hand had something to do with that).

His fit for the 3-4 is debatable.

His cost to production was sky freaking high. He played on ~30% of the snaps and was a liability in coverage. Cushing is going to be on the field in nickle and dime packages meaning Ryans wasnt going to see increased playing time. Paying $9m for a part time player doesnt make any sense when they were cash strapped and have a lot of young guy's coming up for new deals next season.


At least they got "something" for Ryans ..... What did Philly get for Samuels?!

Have to add that he also didn't play any special teams which further decreased his value...

infantrycak
05-03-2012, 03:34 PM
Nope , its pretty accurate IMO.

Ryans wasnt "Ryans" last season (bad hand had something to do with that).

His fit for the 3-4 is debatable.

His cost to production was sky freaking high. He played on ~30% of the snaps and was a liability in coverage.

Ryans did get considerably better as the season went on despite the severely limiting arm brace. He played more like 54% of snaps. His cost to production was definitely high.

Have to add that he also didn't play any special teams which further decreased his value...

Wow, throw away comment. Since you see so many starting LB's out there on special teams.

Rey
05-03-2012, 03:37 PM
Ry
Wow, throw away comment. Since you see so many starting LB's out there on special teams.


Ummm...In a 3-4 if you have an ILB that is considered a 2 down ILB it's not strange at all to see them playing some special teams...

Yes, technically he was considered a starter, but he didn't play the typical amount of snaps for most starting players hence my special teams comment which would have raised his value and maybe could have justified his salary.

cuppacoffee
05-03-2012, 06:43 PM
All I have learned from this off season is that Texan fans are unrealistic. They want 4 pro bowl linebackers. They want 3 all pros on the defensive line. They want 2 shut down corners and 2 ball hawking safeties that never miss a tackle. They want not only an elite running back but his back up to be a 1000 yard rusher too. They want a top 5 qb, and lots of fast wide receivers. They want all 5 positions on the offensive line to all stay together for max salary. About the only thing texan fans don't want is tight ends. And they want all of these players to fit under the salary cap for the next 6 years.

And the front office is not allowed to miss on a draft pick. They must all be home runs and diamonds in the rough



Nothing wrong with that.

I think some of them also want cheaper beer.

:coffee:

Corrosion
05-03-2012, 06:50 PM
Nothing wrong with that.

I think some of them also want cheaper beer.

:coffee:

I want free top shelf scotch .... you can have the cheap beer. :shots:

cuppacoffee
05-03-2012, 07:02 PM
I want free top shelf scotch .... you can have the cheap beer. :shots:

I am not one to question your priorities, but a poor dumb coonass like me can only afford Southern Comfort.

No worries about stadium beer, tickets are also out of my range.

:coffee:

rush2112mn
05-03-2012, 09:44 PM
If we can keep players healthy...this team is built to be in the playoffs and a superbowl run for years to come.....
Sure we lost some players.....but you have to replace them. Look at teams like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New England. They lose players....but replace them and get in the playoffs time and time again. I think this team is like those teams in that respect now.

Corrosion
05-03-2012, 10:11 PM
If we can keep players healthy...this team is built to be in the playoffs and a superbowl run for years to come.....
Sure we lost some players.....but you have to replace them. Look at teams like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New England. They lose players....but replace them and get in the playoffs time and time again. I think this team is like those teams in that respect now.

After a decade of absolute failure .... its about time this team figured it out. They've made some shrewd moves this offseason , I hope they pay off.