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View Full Version : Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB


GhostRaider2007
03-21-2012, 06:22 PM
Link:
http://blog.houstontexans.com/2012/03/21/wade-phillips-affirms-kareem-jackson-as-texans-no-2-cb/
Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

Posted by Nick Scurfield on March 21, 2012 – 4:36 pm

As a guest on the new “Texans All Access” show on SportsRadio 610 on Tuesday afternoon, defensive coordinator Wade Phillips was asked about the Texans’ No. 2 cornerback situation heading into next season.

The question from “All Access” co-host/former Texans defensive end N.D. Kalu went like this: With Brice McCain, Sherrick McManis and 2011 second-round pick Brandon Harris all on the roster, does Phillips plan for an open competition opposite Pro Bowl corner Johnathan Joseph, or does he feel like Kareem Jackson is the starter?

“I think Kareem’s the starter,” Phillips said. “He started most of the games [last season]. Jason Allen played a lot for us. Of course, Jason went to Cincinnati. So, Kareem had a good year. Part of it was we had a good year defensively, but he had something to do with that. He played physical like we thought he would and he obviously played better than he did previously, and that was a big plus for us.”

Jackson started 13 games in 2011 in his second season out of Alabama. Allen, who signed with the Bengals this weekend as an unrestricted free agent, rotated with Jackson and started four games.

A first-round draft pick in 2010, Jackson gets more criticism from fans than any Texans player this side of Jacoby Jones. Much of it stems from his rookie season, when he was victimized on numerous big plays as a 16-game starter for the Texans’ 32nd-ranked passing defense.

“I mean, you could be on him, but we were, what – second in the league in pass defense or third?” Phillips said [the Texans ranked third with 189.7 yards allowed per game]. “He’s part of a secondary that all works together, and he did his part. He didn’t let us down. I thought I think certainly everybody can improve, including Johnathan Joseph and Danieal Manning and those guys and myself. We can all improve some, but I thought he improved a lot last year. He made a big step forward and he became a starter and played good enough to play with a team that did well pass defense-wise, and that was really the big difference in our team last year, defensively, certainly, after giving up so many yards the year before.”

Goatcheese
03-21-2012, 06:26 PM
I like Jackson's improvement in year 2 and would easily rate him in the top 64 corners league wide after his 2011 performance. He caught some flak for some of the receptions he gave up in the playoffs, but from what I could see, those were just spectacular catches that Joseph couldn't have stopped in that situation.

I'm very comfortable going into this season with him tying up #2 WRs and I was one of his biggest critics after a train wreck rookie campaign.

Norg
03-21-2012, 06:30 PM
IM proud of Jackson hes improved from rookie season to year 2 now in year 3 he should only get better

im telling u we could be on the verge of having two Shutdown corners on our team

Endcoachment
03-21-2012, 06:30 PM
UGH. Freeze frame any throw to KJ's receiver in 2011 and you will either see KJ looking away from the ball or falling down. He may have had great plays this year, however i think that is more luck of the draw than anything.

Playoffs
03-21-2012, 06:42 PM
Still need another CB or two in the Don't-Touch-The-QB league.

EllisUnit
03-21-2012, 06:51 PM
:kubepalm: and i thought demeco getting traded was bad.

LikeMike
03-21-2012, 07:00 PM
UGH. Freeze frame any throw to KJ's receiver in 2011 and you will either see KJ looking away from the ball or falling down. He may have had great plays this year, however i think that is more luck of the draw than anything.

KJ had some big problems on deep balls because he can`t locate the ball when his back is to the QB. I guess that a lot of coaching and a lot of work will be put in this offseason to correct that.

But when he was facing the QB he played really, really well - and not just covering his man, but also in run support and helping the other dbs.

In his first years KJ was burnt on many slants and was fooled by many WRs with double moves - he drastically improved in that area. So I think there is hope, that this year he can improve on the deep balls as well.

EllisUnit
03-21-2012, 07:03 PM
KJ had some big problems on deep balls because he can`t locate the ball when his back is to the QB. I guess that a lot of coaching and a lot of work will be put in this offseason to correct that.

But when he was facing the QB he played really, really well - and not just covering his man, but also in run support and helping the other dbs.

In his first years KJ was burnt on many slants and was fooled by many WRs with double moves - he drastically improved in that area. So I think there is hope, that this year he can improve on the deep balls as well.

the problem is that last season we always had consistent pressure on the QB that the WR rarely even had a chance to put a double move on KJ. Lets not forget he did get burned pretty bad a few times. Thanks to Julio of the falcons dropping the ball we managed to hang on for that win.

If we dont get consistent pressure on the QB that is when i will be concerned cause that is when he will get exposed. like in 2010

Allstar
03-21-2012, 07:03 PM
Considering his only competition last year went to the Bengals, I really don't see how this is news...

Rey
03-21-2012, 07:17 PM
Considering his only competition last year went to the Bengals, I really don't see how this is news...

Yeah, I don't get why this is news worthy.

Of course kj is the #2 corner. Who the he'll else would it be?

If he plays well enough to hold on to that job he'll keep it. But if someone else obviously outplays him I think the other guy would take some snaps.

PapaL
03-21-2012, 07:51 PM
Call me crazy but I look forward to seeing what Roc Carmichael can bring. I think last year he was "red-shirted" and he's the reason why Allen was let go.

Food for thought. Let's see how this all plays out. In Wade I Trust...

Texan_Bill
03-21-2012, 07:54 PM
In Wade, we trust??

Maybe Wade knows something we don't? Maybe Wade thinks more of KJ than we all do... I'll bite..............





For the time being.

Thorn
03-21-2012, 08:14 PM
Yall are all aware of that little stat about 2nd year Wade Phillips defenses having a down year, no?

Allstar
03-21-2012, 08:17 PM
Yall are all aware of that little stat about 2nd year Wade Phillips defenses having a down year, no?

We can have a down year and still be top 5, so hopefully we can live with that.

Thorn
03-21-2012, 08:19 PM
We can have a down year and still be top 5, so hopefully we can live with that.

An offense or defense in the top ten is always something to be proud of. Top five is even better. :)

Fili
03-21-2012, 09:30 PM
Still need another CB or two in the Don't-Touch-The-QB league.

If you look at the league there few great QB's and some decent QB's.... That's why they are protected.

badboy
03-21-2012, 09:56 PM
I agree that KJ had better year but that was due largely to improvement of over all D especially moving him opposite a probowler and putting better safeties in backfield. We will see what coaching can do for him. I still want to see Harris and Carmichael on field.

TdotTexas2Step
03-21-2012, 10:11 PM
If that's the case....

Will we ever see Brandon Harris? I only ask this because I think McCain's got the nickle position locked up (he played really well in that spot last season IMO), and I can see Carmichael playing the role of spelling McCain and being the 4th CB.

Texan_Bill
03-21-2012, 10:14 PM
Yall are all aware of that little stat about 2nd year Wade Phillips defenses having a down year, no?

Really? Thorn are you kidding me??

While I'm a quarter of your age, why do you have to post in such small font??? I'm getting older myself!! :D

buddyboy
03-21-2012, 10:47 PM
I just have to say that if Wade says it, I believe it. He's earned that thus far in my book.

El Tejano
03-21-2012, 10:56 PM
......and Kareem Jackson falls down!

TexCanada
03-21-2012, 11:43 PM
I like the way Wade talks about him. He praises him a bit, but he still made it clear that he has some improving to do. I like KJ, I think he works well as our #2. I hope to see Harris a lot more next season too.

clutch
03-22-2012, 12:17 AM
well he has gotten better with time..usually CBs need 2-3 years to develop to their potential..maybe wade reminded jackson that he has a neck..here's for hoping..in wade we trust..

DocBar
03-22-2012, 04:58 AM
I'm very curious to see how they use Brandon Harris this coming season.

TimeKiller
03-23-2012, 09:15 AM
At least people are consistent haha....

I mean all you can ask a player to do is to get better. I don't think anybody would be foolish enough to argue otherwise for KJ.

All Phillips did was ask him to get better.....again. Still only his 3rd year and with that sort of leap last year why so down on him? That may be as good as he gets but there's only one way to find out. If he makes the same step forward this year he'll be a decent #2.

Rey
03-23-2012, 09:19 AM
Kareem did not perform well his rookie season. Last year he made improvements with some real coaching.

I'm willing to look at last year as Kareem's true rookie season.

Based on what I saw, he still isn't a great CB. I think we can do better there, but that said, he's not awful either. He's missing some playmaking ability and ball skills IMO, but he's solid player.

chicagotexan2
03-23-2012, 09:25 AM
......and Kareem Jackson falls down!

Which begs the question. If a Kareem falls in the woods does it make a sound?

chicagotexan2
03-23-2012, 09:30 AM
Link:
http://blog.houstontexans.com/2012/03/21/wade-phillips-affirms-kareem-jackson-as-texans-no-2-cb/

I concur with Wade Phillips. Kareem Jackson is pure #2.

ItsMyFault
03-23-2012, 09:30 AM
Maybe Kareem threatened Wade into saying this... the one gaping hole in the defense is the other CB spot with Jackson. It might just get exposed more this season with the schedule that the Texans have against some of the best QBs in the NFL.

IBleedTexans
03-23-2012, 09:55 AM
Maybe Kareem threatened Wade into saying this... the one gaping hole in the defense is the other CB spot with Jackson. It might just get exposed more this season with the schedule that the Texans have against some of the best QBs in the NFL.

Or, he will make y'all eat y'alls words Just like Myers did. I'm leaning towards the eating of the crow

foo82
03-23-2012, 10:16 AM
Maybe Kareem threatened Wade into saying this... the one gaping hole in the defense is the other CB spot with Jackson. It might just get exposed more this season with the schedule that the Texans have against some of the best QBs in the NFL.

Do you seriously believe that KJ threatened Wade into saying this? Seriously too many of you still have the same biases of KJ falling down from season 1. I saw Allen fall down more that KJ this past season.

Ryan
03-23-2012, 10:24 AM
At least i have this news to be happy about. :wadepalm:

GP
03-23-2012, 10:32 AM
I just don't know what to think of Kareem Jackson.

Overall, I think he's a liability. I can't go into the reasons why, but I have multiple reasons. Getting into this discussion is a real drain on me. And others.

Joseph got abused a few times himself. The favorite way offenses abuse Joseph is near the end zone, like the Saints and a few other teams did (Falcons, IIRC), where the WR runs an in or a slant and then cuts back to the corner of the end zone...Joseph bites on that inside move a lot. He even knows it when it unfolds before him and he knows he can't recover in time.

KJ is going to have be better in year 3 than he was in year 2. I think that's the best way I can say it. He wasn't terrible in year 2 like he was in year 1. He needs a great year in 2012.

El Tejano
03-23-2012, 10:44 AM
Things like this make me think we are going to have a bad year.

76Texan
03-23-2012, 11:23 AM
Kareem was a starting RB in high school and only played part-time at DB.
He converted to full-time CB at a prep school.
He came out of college a year early.
One can consider him as a RS Senior; the fact remains that he didn't have as much experience in the secondary as most NFL CBs.
He's only going to get better.
I hope the doubters join the program soon so they won't have to waste their time nitpicking next season.
Enjoy the game, people! :fans:

Rey
03-23-2012, 11:30 AM
Kareem was a starting RB in high school and only played part-time at DB.
He converted to full-time CB at a prep school.
He came out of college a year early.
One can consider him as a RS Senior; the fact remains that he didn't have as much experience in the secondary as most NFL CBs.

Do you know that can be said about a lot of NFL prospects?

A lot of these guys played different positions at one point or another and only played the position they're being drafted at in college...Quite a few guys don't even have as much experience as kareem had... Alot of them come out early. A lot of them have not been locked into one position for their entire football playing life.

silvrhand
03-23-2012, 12:26 PM
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/122/7/8/beating_a_dead_horse_by_potatoehuman-d3fead4.jpg

CloakNNNdagger
03-23-2012, 12:33 PM
Kareem was a starting RB in high school and only played part-time at DB.
He converted to full-time CB at a prep school.
He came out of college a year early.
One can consider him as a RS Senior; the fact remains that he didn't have as much experience in the secondary as most NFL CBs.
He's only going to get better.
I hope the doubters join the program soon so they won't have to waste their time nitpicking next season.
Enjoy the game, people! :fans:

I'm trying to stay positive. I keep trying to kick Okoye out of my head. At least KJ didn't really learn the ins and outs of football by playing Madden NFL ...........I guess.:kitten:

76Texan
03-23-2012, 12:58 PM
Do you know that can be said about a lot of NFL prospects?

A lot of these guys played different positions at one point or another and only played the position they're being drafted at in college...Quite a few guys don't even have as much experience as kareem had... Alot of them come out early. A lot of them have not been locked into one position for their entire football playing life.

How many guys who came out early with not much experience at CB have been successful early in their NFL career?

76Texan
03-23-2012, 01:02 PM
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/122/7/8/beating_a_dead_horse_by_potatoehuman-d3fead4.jpg

Mad prop to you, LOL!

TimeKiller
03-23-2012, 01:05 PM
Do you know that can be said about a lot of NFL prospects?

A lot of these guys played different positions at one point or another and only played the position they're being drafted at in college...Quite a few guys don't even have as much experience as kareem had... Alot of them come out early. A lot of them have not been locked into one position for their entire football playing life.

Of course, due to developing bodies, guys grow in and right out of positions which also expand farther at every level. I know that some folks will never be satisfied because of where he was drafted but it does, almost always, take 3 years to really be able to judge a player specifically. So year 1 he was tossed straight into an inferno and got torched, funny that. Year 2 Wade pulled him out of the fire, got a butter knife and scraped off some of burned edges and he was able to progress. Year 3......uh, anybody got some butter? This analogy went better in my head...

I'm not saying we're waiting on Picasso's next great work of art. I'm saying as long as he's progressing, what's the problem?

The "falling down" jokes are SOOOOOOOO 2010.....

Vinny
03-23-2012, 02:04 PM
In Wade, we trust??

Maybe Wade knows something we don't? Maybe Wade thinks more of KJ than we all do... I'll bite..............





For the time being.its that time of year where you pump everyone up. Every year they are glossing all over guys they eventually cut or don't perform as well as their advertising. Its a family thang

Rey
03-23-2012, 02:12 PM
Of course, due to developing bodies, guys grow in and right out of positions which also expand farther at every level. I know that some folks will never be satisfied because of where he was drafted but it does, almost always, take 3 years to really be able to judge a player specifically. So year 1 he was tossed straight into an inferno and got torched, funny that. Year 2 Wade pulled him out of the fire, got a butter knife and scraped off some of burned edges and he was able to progress. Year 3......uh, anybody got some butter? This analogy went better in my head...

I'm not saying we're waiting on Picasso's next great work of art. I'm saying as long as he's progressing, what's the problem?

The "falling down" jokes are SOOOOOOOO 2010.....

Seems like when you respond to one aspect of something you get linked with everything else...

I've never made jokes abou tKJ falling down, and if you look at my posts in this thread or regarding KJ in general I've never said he sucks.

I was responding to 76's post about KJ not being as experienced as other NFL corners because he had only played the position since prep school...Nothing more, nothing less.

Rey
03-23-2012, 02:14 PM
How many guys who came out early with not much experience at CB have been successful early in their NFL career?


Are you saying that KJ has not been successful, or are you saying he is the lone exception that has been successful despite extraordinary circumstances?

foo82
03-23-2012, 05:05 PM
Are you saying that KJ has not been successful, or are you saying he is the lone exception that has been successful despite extraordinary circumstances?

...It's not difficult. He's stating that most CBs are not successful their rookie year, especially those with the playing time that KJ got, and KJ is no exception. We should not have put that high of an expectation on him nor should we criticize too harshly because it is to be expected. CB requires a huge learning curve that experience and good coaching can improve.

Rey
03-23-2012, 05:27 PM
...It's not difficult. He's stating that most CBs are not successful their rookie year, especially those with the playing time that KJ got, and KJ is no exception. We should not have put that high of an expectation on him nor should we criticize too harshly because it is to be expected. CB requires a huge learning curve that experience and good coaching can improve.

I think I'll let 76 speak for himself, thank you.

He's a big boy.

76Texan
03-24-2012, 12:20 AM
Are you saying that KJ has not been successful, or are you saying he is the lone exception that has been successful despite extraordinary circumstances?

...It's not difficult. He's stating that most CBs are not successful their rookie year, especially those with the playing time that KJ got, and KJ is no exception. We should not have put that high of an expectation on him nor should we criticize too harshly because it is to be expected. CB requires a huge learning curve that experience and good coaching can improve.

I didn't say anything really. I was only asking youu (Rey) a question.

Which guy(s) that you know of who had about the same experience at CB as Jackson coming out and had a fantastic first year?

You didn't answer my question, instead you ask me a question.
Foo82 (and a few others through all of last year) had followed some of my studies and agreed about the dead horse thing.

I had already typed out an answer to your question, but since I've asked you a question first, I think it's only fair for you to anwer my question before I answer yours.

Rey
03-24-2012, 12:45 AM
I didn't say anything really. I was only asking youu (Rey) a question.

Which guy(s) that you know of who had about the same experience at CB as Jackson coming out and had a fantastic first year?

You didn't answer my question, instead you ask me a question.
Foo82 (and a few others through all of last year) had followed some of my studies and agreed about the dead horse thing.

I had already typed out an answer to your question, but since I've asked you a question first, I think it's only fair for you to anwer my question before I answer yours.

Fair enough. But what is your definition of "early in their career"?

Jason seahorn didn't even play much cb until he got to the NFL. He was a wr/return man in juco then he played safety at USC.

He didn't play a whole lot his first two years in the league, but by his third year he was a legit starting corner. I'd consider that early in his career.

But the reason I asked you that question is because your stance has been that as a rookie Kareem wasn't bad. Now it seems as if you're defending his bad play by saying he hadn't had much experience.

And you want me to answer a question that would require me to know the history of ever cb to ever play in the NFL.

My while point is that the excuses you are making don't matter. Everyone has a story. I'd guess most NFL players have played a bunch of different positions and some not as long as kj.

I'm pretty sure there have been mire players than Jason seahorn to play all over the place and then come into the NFL and be successful early in their career.

And before you or anyone else tries to give me words or thoughts that I didn't type, I realize that kj is still a youngster and I even said earlier in the thread that I was willing to look at last year as his rookie season since his first year the defense was ran by what seemingly amounted to a bunch of clowns.

I just disagree with the excuses you're putting out there for poor play. And I guess that you are admitting that he has played poorly in the past because you wouldn't need to give excuses if his play was great, right?

76Texan
03-24-2012, 01:10 AM
Never mind about Seahorn (whom I admit that I've never heard of - I don't know if anybody on this board can come up with that example either).

There are plenty of CBs who came out recently and were drafted higher than Jackson and never amounted to much. The duos from the Chargers for example.
One is better than the other, both were cover 2 corner.

But to answer your question, I would have to ask you to go back to the archive and read what I had to say when I started the thread analyzing KJ's play in college.

I said that KJ was an all-around solid CB.
He was a near-shutdown cover corner against "would-be or wanna-be" 2nd receiver (at most) in the NFL.
I questioned his deep speed (more like I recognized that it will not be his forte.)
I even gave that part to McCourty pre-draft (and that was why I had them neck-to-neck only because McCourty has a little better speed.)
I wasn't even sure if I would give either one of them first round grade.
I said I would feel more comfortable with both of them early in the second round.

Jackson's strength in coverage was to stay in phase with the receiver and thus discouraged a throw his way. Either the QB had to take a shot from the get-go or he woudn't have a chance to come back that-a-way.

He was (and is) a great tackler who can avoid blocks to get to the ball carrier better than a majority of CBs that were in the NFL before him.
He's a great forced man on the edge, unlike Dunta or Allen.


He can be useful in blitzes, but so far his NFL coaches hadn't asked him to do that yet (for various reasons too lengthy to get into.)

At Bama, Saban wanted him to stay mostly on the right side of the defense and keep up with the receiver if he reads pass. If he reads run, he was asked to come off his man and support. He did both exceptionally well. He was mostly on an island.

This allowed the safety to give help to the other side or to come down to play the run.
And when the opponent QBs "had to" go to the other side way too often against more coverage, there were more INT opportunities on the left side.
There wasn't a single play where the QB can come back to Jackson's side to find an open receiver.
This would result in a sack or a throw away if the QB tries to.

That was in college.

In his rookie year, the Texans moved him to play more on the left side of the D.
They wanted him to work on the shuffle, something he never did in college (at least in his last season at Bama - I had reviewed all the games except for games against 2nd tier schools.)
The Texans played him in some zone and cover 3 and he did those tasks as well as one can expect (prompting Wade and Vance Joseph to say that he was a good zone corner - and these were the things he didn't do at Bama).

He had a full plate to learn as a rookie (unlike McCourty who was simply asked to play cover 2 corner for the most part by the Pats - whether man or zone under; or Patrick Peterson who was asked to simply play man with the Cards.)

For me, Jackson had a successful rookie season.
Not only was he thrown into the fire, he was asked to do a whole lot more than either McCourty or Peterson.

And need I repeat that the guys that failed were the safeties and the DC who were let go?

Need I rehash that even a highly-touted CB like Peterson was burned left and right doing (basically) the only thing that he did best in college?

Jason Allen was never the future; KJ is the future and the now.

Who was banking on Allen?
Definitely not me!

Rey
03-24-2012, 01:26 AM
Never mind about Seahorn (whom I admit that I've never heard of - I don't know if anybody on this board can come up with that example either).

There are plenty of CBs who came out recently and were drafted higher than Jackson and never amounted to much. The duos from the Chargers for example.
One is better than the other, both were cover 2 corner.

But to answer your question, I would have to ask you to go back to the archive and read what I had to say when I started the thread analyzing KJ's play in college.

I said that KJ was an all-around solid CB.
He was a near-shutdown cover corner against "would-be or wanna-be" 2nd receiver (at most) in the NFL.
I questioned his deep speed (more like I recognized that it will not be his forte.)
I even gave that part to McCourty pre-draft (and that was why I had them neck-to-neck only because McCourty has a little better speed.)
I wasn't even sure if I would give either one of them first round grade.
I said I would feel more comfortable with both of them early in the second round.

Jackson's strength in coverage was to stay in phase with the receiver and thus discouraged a throw his way. Either the QB had to take a shot from the get-go or he woudn't have a chance to come back that-a-way.

He was (and is) a great tackler who can avoid blocks to get to the ball carrier better than a majority of CBs that were in the NFL before him.
He's a great forced man on the edge, unlike Dunta or Allen.


He can be useful in blitzes, but so far his NFL coaches hadn't asked him to do that yet (for various reasons too lengthy to get into.)

At Bama, Saban wanted him to stay mostly on the right side of the defense and keep up with the receiver if he reads pass. If he reads run, he was asked to come off his man and support. He did both exceptionally well. He was mostly on an island.

This allowed the safety to give help to the other side or to come down to play the run.
And when the opponent QBs "had to" go to the other side way too often against more coverage, there were more INT opportunities on the left side.
There wasn't a single play where the QB can come back to Jackson's side to find an open receiver.
This would result in a sack or a throw away if the QB tries to.

That was in college.

In his rookie year, the Texans moved him to play more on the left side of the D.
They wanted him to work on the shuffle, something he never did in college (at least in his last season at Bama - I had reviewed all the games except for games against 2nd tier schools.)
The Texans played him in some zone and cover 3 and he did those tasks as well as one can expect (prompting Wade and Vance Joseph to say that he was a good zone corner - and these were the things he didn't do at Bama).

He had a full plate to learn as a rookie (unlike McCourty who was simply asked to play cover 2 corner for the most part by the Pats - whether man or zone under; or Patrick Peterson who was asked to simply play man with the Cards.)

For me, Jackson had a successful rookie season.
Not only was he thrown into the fire, he was asked to do a whole lot more than either McCourty or Peterson.

And need I repeat that the guys that failed were the safeties and the DC who were let go?

Need I rehash that even a highly-touted CB like Peterson was burned left and right doing (basically) the only thing that he did best in college?

Jason Allen was never the future; KJ is the future and the now.

Who was banking on Allen?
Definitely not me!

Will respond tomorrow. Sleep time.

welsh texan
03-24-2012, 05:25 AM
And the debate rages on. I saw a lot of improvement from KJ last year, thought he looked very competent late in the season when the only passes he looked to be giving up were great plays by the WR's.

I guess next season it'll be whether he begins to stop the WR from making that great play as often that decides whether he will be a success in this league long term or not.

Also, I don't see anyone coming in and displacing him at CB2, or even taking significant snaps at him, how will he cope with being out there the whole time rather than subbing in/out and getting extra coaching for half the snaps.

Those are the 2 big questions for next season, if you ask me. He made a big step last year and I can see him becoming everything you need at #2 if he makes the same sort of progress again.

If he doesn't, Glover Quin's contract is up at the end of next season and Kareem might make a cheaper option at safety if he isn't going to make it as a corner.

GP
03-24-2012, 08:34 AM
All I want to know is if 76 is a 'Bama fan. I've hinted in past discussions that he is, but have never had it confirmed nor denied.

He knows so much about KJ's college days, he has an affinity for the guy, so it makes me wonder.

The reason I ask is because sometimes our objectivity gets clouded when we've got an alma mater and an alum to defend.

Not saying he can't discuss the topic, but am only wondering if there's an extra reason or two for his often "soft" analysis of KJ.

Overall, 76, I enjoy your posts on other topics. The KJ thang just seems different than other players you analyze for some reason. No harm meant, 76. :)

76Texan
03-25-2012, 01:08 AM
All I want to know is if 76 is a 'Bama fan. I've hinted in past discussions that he is, but have never had it confirmed nor denied.

He knows so much about KJ's college days, he has an affinity for the guy, so it makes me wonder.

The reason I ask is because sometimes our objectivity gets clouded when we've got an alma mater and an alum to defend.

Not saying he can't discuss the topic, but am only wondering if there's an extra reason or two for his often "soft" analysis of KJ.

Overall, 76, I enjoy your posts on other topics. The KJ thang just seems different than other players you analyze for some reason. No harm meant, 76. :)

Nah, I'm a Coogs homer. Read my thread on Case Keenum in the college football forum and you'll know. http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

But I do watch a lot of SEC football throughout the year.

DocBar
03-25-2012, 08:32 AM
Nah, I'm a Coogs homer. Read my thread on Case Keenum in the college football forum and you'll know. http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

But I do watch a lot of SEC football throughout the year.KJ sux. :kitten: j/k bro. Just being a peckerhead.

b0ng
03-25-2012, 09:46 AM
I remember Diane Brown's rookie season he was especially bad and his sophmore year wasn't much better. As long as he continues to improve, something I believe he did, then he should start.

thunderkyss
03-25-2012, 10:48 AM
the problem is that last season we always had consistent pressure on the QB that the WR rarely even had a chance to put a double move on KJ. Lets not forget he did get burned pretty bad a few times. Thanks to Julio of the falcons dropping the ball we managed to hang on for that win.

If we dont get consistent pressure on the QB that is when i will be concerned cause that is when he will get exposed. like in 2010

While I don't share EllisUnit's general negativity surrounding Kj, what he says here has some truth. Not only regarding Kj, but our secondary as a whole. Jjo played well this season (second team All-pro), but he's also played well above what we (& I'm sure the Bengals) expected. A lot of that has to do with the defensive philosophy of Wade Phillips.

If our pass rush takes a step back, Jjo & Manning will become scape goats just like the 2010 Defensive Backfield.

& Kj will be center stage again.

The most telling part of the article, I think, was when Wade said Kj, "didn't let us down." What more can you ask for?

Another thing; I think most fans here have an unrealistic expectation of what to expect from a first round CB. The only Rookie CB I can think of that lived up to that expectation in recent years, I think, was Devon McCourthy in 2010. But then you look at him in 2011 & he looked as bad as Kj did his rookie season.

There's a reason for that, same reason for Kj's improvement in 2011. Same reason for Jjo's All-Pro year.


It's a team game.

ChampionTexan
03-25-2012, 10:51 AM
I remember Diane Brown's rookie season...

http://static.foxsports.com/content/fscom/img/2010/09/21/092110-NFL-Duane-Brown-JW_20100921161708_660_320.JPG

Texecutioner
03-25-2012, 10:51 AM
All I'll say on this subject is that anyone who really feels that KJ is a good CB or a good guy to start for us really doesn't know what a good NFL corner is supposed to play like. He may have gotten better in his 2nd season, but that doesn't mean that he isn't a really bad corner.

thunderkyss
03-25-2012, 10:52 AM
I saw Allen fall down more that KJ this past season.

Speaking of which, the Texans need to do something about that field.

That was pathetic.

thunderkyss
03-25-2012, 11:11 AM
Never mind about Seahorn (whom I admit that I've never heard of - I don't know if anybody on this board can come up with that example either).

There are plenty of CBs who came out recently and were drafted higher than Jackson and never amounted to much. The duos from the Chargers for example.
One is better than the other, both were cover 2 corner.

But to answer your question, I would have to ask you to go back to the archive and read what I had to say when I started the thread analyzing KJ's play in college.

I said that KJ was an all-around solid CB.
He was a near-shutdown cover corner against "would-be or wanna-be" 2nd receiver (at most) in the NFL.
I questioned his deep speed (more like I recognized that it will not be his forte.)
I even gave that part to McCourty pre-draft (and that was why I had them neck-to-neck only because McCourty has a little better speed.)
I wasn't even sure if I would give either one of them first round grade.
I said I would feel more comfortable with both of them early in the second round.

Jackson's strength in coverage was to stay in phase with the receiver and thus discouraged a throw his way. Either the QB had to take a shot from the get-go or he woudn't have a chance to come back that-a-way.

He was (and is) a great tackler who can avoid blocks to get to the ball carrier better than a majority of CBs that were in the NFL before him.
He's a great forced man on the edge, unlike Dunta or Allen.


He can be useful in blitzes, but so far his NFL coaches hadn't asked him to do that yet (for various reasons too lengthy to get into.)

At Bama, Saban wanted him to stay mostly on the right side of the defense and keep up with the receiver if he reads pass. If he reads run, he was asked to come off his man and support. He did both exceptionally well. He was mostly on an island.

This allowed the safety to give help to the other side or to come down to play the run.
And when the opponent QBs "had to" go to the other side way too often against more coverage, there were more INT opportunities on the left side.
There wasn't a single play where the QB can come back to Jackson's side to find an open receiver.
This would result in a sack or a throw away if the QB tries to.

That was in college.

In his rookie year, the Texans moved him to play more on the left side of the D.
They wanted him to work on the shuffle, something he never did in college (at least in his last season at Bama - I had reviewed all the games except for games against 2nd tier schools.)
The Texans played him in some zone and cover 3 and he did those tasks as well as one can expect (prompting Wade and Vance Joseph to say that he was a good zone corner - and these were the things he didn't do at Bama).

He had a full plate to learn as a rookie (unlike McCourty who was simply asked to play cover 2 corner for the most part by the Pats - whether man or zone under; or Patrick Peterson who was asked to simply play man with the Cards.)

For me, Jackson had a successful rookie season.
Not only was he thrown into the fire, he was asked to do a whole lot more than either McCourty or Peterson.

And need I repeat that the guys that failed were the safeties and the DC who were let go?

Need I rehash that even a highly-touted CB like Peterson was burned left and right doing (basically) the only thing that he did best in college?

Jason Allen was never the future; KJ is the future and the now.

Who was banking on Allen?
Definitely not me!

MSR

I generally don't quote complete posts, especially when they're this long, But it's too goo, & needs to be repeated. As far as the player, I agree with your take on Kj. However, I wouldn't know about the 2nd round grade as that depends on who else is in the draft. We took him at what 20? So you're saying there were at least 12 players that you thought provided more value for the Texans in the 2010 draft (http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?season=2010&round=round1#round1)?

Jermiane Gresham, Demaryius Thomas, Dez Bryant, Tim Tebow.... that's about all I see, so he's still a first rounder in my book.

I also can't speak to what McCourty, or Peterson was asked to do as I don't watch there games with that kind of attention to detail, but it does sound plausible & I appreciate the effort you put in to this.

:butterfly:

Rey
03-25-2012, 11:26 AM
All I'll say on this subject is that anyone who really feels that KJ is a good CB or a good guy to start for us really doesn't know what a good NFL corner is supposed to play like. He may have gotten better in his 2nd season, but that doesn't mean that he isn't a really bad corner.

I wouldn't go so far as to say he's really bad, but I think people are setting the bar low or at a mediocre level in this case.

After the season kubiak talked up jacoby. Anybody think that means he doesn't think we can do better at wr other than Andre?

Out of all the starters on defense, kj is/was probably the weakest link.

For all the flak Allen got, kj couldn't keep him off the field. And if you think that him sharing time with Allen didn't mask some of his deficiencies you're dreaming.

We can do better at that position. Either kj will improve and hold off the competition behind him or he won't. It's really that simple, but my point is that we can do better than what we got out of him last season.

thunderkyss
03-25-2012, 12:15 PM
Kj is improving, just like he's supposed to. We saw it in Chris Myers, we saw it in Mario Williams, & we saw it in Duane Brown. Everyone you see defending Kj are the same people you saw defending those guys.

No, they didn't particularly play well as rookies (or in Myers' case, his first season as a Texans). But they did play well enough to show they had the talent it takes to be successful in this league.

He's not playing like a Pro Bowler right now. He is playing like a 2nd year corner. To expect the former, is where the disconnect is.

I don't know that he'll take the necessary steps next year. All I can say is that I do believe it's time for him to take sole responsibility of the #2 CB position. It is time for him to sink or swim.

I also don't think we need to go out & get another CB. We have McCain, Harris, Carmichael, & McMannis in the event Kj fails. If that proves to not be sufficient, then we can go get some help next year.

b0ng
03-25-2012, 11:33 PM
http://static.foxsports.com/content/fscom/img/2010/09/21/092110-NFL-Duane-Brown-JW_20100921161708_660_320.JPG

Heh. Saving the name Duane to my phone now. On a side note Elaine Gabbert will never be corrected.

Texecutioner seems to think Kareem Jackson is incapable of improvement, which is sad but but far fetched. Texans staff are appearing comfortable in giving Kareem the job with probably McCain, McMannis and one of Harris or Carmichael on the bench. I don't think they are grabbing a CB until the 4th round or later, so we're probably seeing him at CB2 for the foreseeable future. Unless Brice McCain grows about 4 or 5 inches in the off-season.

welsh texan
03-26-2012, 10:22 AM
IMO, if they take a CB in this years draft, its either because he's fallen really far and is BPA by a country mile or they are admitting that one of last years guys was a bad pick.

Positions they need to secure before CB include RG, OT, OLB, ILB, WR, QB, K, FB/TE, DE. Those are all positions where our depth is seriously thin, in no particular order, and if CB is taken care of before any of them, then I think its a pretty damning review of Roc & Harris.

GP
03-26-2012, 10:26 AM
Kubiak is going to blow everyone's mind and draft nothing but offensive linemen with every pick except the token 5th or 6th round QB.

LOL. Can you imagine the reaction?

El Tejano
03-26-2012, 12:49 PM
Kubiak is going to blow everyone's mind and draft nothing but offensive linemen with every pick except the token 5th or 6th round QB.

LOL. Can you imagine the reaction?

C'mon man, he's not going to do that....you know he'll throw a TE in there somewhere!!!

Runner
03-26-2012, 12:53 PM
Kubiak is going to blow everyone's mind and draft nothing but offensive linemen with every pick except the token 5th or 6th round QB.

LOL. Can you imagine the reaction?

I can imagine the reaction. Half the posters would say it was a bad draft. The other half would say it was a great draft.

Mr teX
03-26-2012, 01:33 PM
:kubepalm: and i thought demeco getting traded was bad.

C'mon man he wasn't nearly as bad as he was in 2010. He showed great improvement from his rookie year. He's still got work to do, but i think he'll be ok as long as we've got good safety help.

Mr teX
03-26-2012, 01:51 PM
Heh. Saving the name Duane to my phone now. On a side note Elaine Gabbert will never be corrected.

Texecutioner seems to think Kareem Jackson is incapable of improvement, which is sad but but far fetched. Texans staff are appearing comfortable in giving Kareem the job with probably McCain, McMannis and one of Harris or Carmichael on the bench. I don't think they are grabbing a CB until the 4th round or later, so we're probably seeing him at CB2 for the foreseeable future. Unless Brice McCain grows about 4 or 5 inches in the off-season.

remember though, alot of the same people said that bringing in Wade wasn't going to be enough to counter Kubiak's terrible coaching and help this team get over the hump & into the playoffs this past year though either.

Some in here just tend to look at things with skepticism having been scarred by houston sports franchises for so long...Nothing wrong with that though, it counteracts those like myself who tend to want to look at the bright side of everything.

As for kareem i think he could get better next year, but only marginally better than what we saw from him last year. & honestly even if that results in him being a decent #2 cb for his career, every time this guy gives up a catch/TD people will gripe about his play. I think he's largely become a marked man here b/c of his rookie season in 2010...which honestly really wasn't all on him. People act like he was the only guy in that secondary getting torched every weekend. Quinn was part of that secondary too & has the most infamous gaffe of that season from the Jax game but people don't look at him the same way they look at KJ.

badboy
03-26-2012, 01:58 PM
Heh. Saving the name Duane to my phone now. On a side note Elaine Gabbert will never be corrected.

Texecutioner seems to think Kareem Jackson is incapable of improvement, which is sad but but far fetched. Texans staff are appearing comfortable in giving Kareem the job with probably McCain, McMannis and one of Harris or Carmichael on the bench. I don't think they are grabbing a CB until the 4th round or later, so we're probably seeing him at CB2 for the foreseeable future. Unless Brice McCain grows about 4 or 5 inches in the off-season.McCain improvement is reason Harris did not play much, imo. I really like direction our DB coaching seems to be going. KJ should take another step forward after a full off season and TC.

GP
03-26-2012, 03:37 PM
C'mon man, he's not going to do that....you know he'll throw a TE in there somewhere!!!

Except for one thing: The TE will turn out to have played only his senior year at TE...his previous three college seasons at Right Tackle! And everyone will wonder if he'll play RT for us and not TE.

NBT
03-26-2012, 03:53 PM
If that's the case....

Will we ever see Brandon Harris? I only ask this because I think McCain's got the nickle position locked up (he played really well in that spot last season IMO), and I can see Carmichael playing the role of spelling McCain and being the 4th CB.

Brandon Harris was drafted because Brice MCcain had such a bad year at the nickel back position the year before. Last year the light came on for McCain, and he had a fine year. Thus brandon Harris never got off the bench. Why they couldn't try him at KJ's corner, I don't know.

thunderkyss
03-26-2012, 09:29 PM
Brandon Harris was drafted because Brice MCcain had such a bad year at the nickel back position the year before. Last year the light came on for McCain, and he had a fine year. Thus brandon Harris never got off the bench. Why they couldn't try him at KJ's corner, I don't know.

Nobody drafts a nickel back with a 2nd round pick. They damn sure don't trade back into the second to do so.

Harris was drafted because we had no proven corners on the team. Kareem, Jason Allen, & McCain were coming off the worst pass defense in the history of the game & Quin was being moved to safety.

If Wade & Joseph had the opportunity to talk to Kj & Allen, the opportunity to see them play, I doubt we would have traded up for a CB.

However, at the time it made all the sense in the world.

76Texan
03-27-2012, 12:59 PM
MSR

I generally don't quote complete posts, especially when they're this long, But it's too goo, & needs to be repeated. As far as the player, I agree with your take on Kj. However, I wouldn't know about the 2nd round grade as that depends on who else is in the draft. We took him at what 20? So you're saying there were at least 12 players that you thought provided more value for the Texans in the 2010 draft (http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?season=2010&round=round1#round1)?


I'm usually too careful when I placed a ranking on prospects.
Consistently, I rated most every one of them lower than where they were drafted.
I don't have time to watch all the draft prospects, but if I do, I wouldn't have enough players (32) to be drafted in each round, LOL!

I did say (before the draft) that I can see both Jackson and McCourty in the first round.
I didn't think as highly of Kyle Wilson and he even snuck into the first round at #29.
(I had Patrick Robinson higher than him, and now Robinson has been playing better than Wilson. The Saint drafted him at #31 I believe.)

...

Last year, a lot of people on this board simply loved Prince Amukarama; they thought he won't make it until our draft slot. I disagreed and I was correct.
Amukarama was drafted at #19 by the Giants and didn't see much playing time (he did have a minor injury early in the year, but fully recovered.) The news from NY is that he struggled and was benched.

I said I liked Jimmy Smith better (he was drafted at #27 by the Ravens).
Similar to Prince, he incurred a minor injury early but also recovered.
He played in 12 games and started 3.
Ravens fans on their MB liked him, and it looks like he might be ready to start next year.

...

Once again, people have been over-expecting; some of them wanted to justify their "feelings" and kept ragging on KJ.

Right, I don't know about CB play, but my takes on them somehow eventually turn out to be much closer to reality. http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

El Tejano
03-27-2012, 01:02 PM
Except for one thing: The TE will turn out to have played only his senior year at TE...his previous three college seasons at Right Tackle! And everyone will wonder if he'll play RT for us and not TE.

Or try to convert him to WR and say that's our guy to play opposite AJ!

76Texan
03-27-2012, 01:05 PM
I wouldn't go so far as to say he's really bad, but I think people are setting the bar low or at a mediocre level in this case.

After the season kubiak talked up jacoby. Anybody think that means he doesn't think we can do better at wr other than Andre?

Out of all the starters on defense, kj is/was probably the weakest link.

For all the flak Allen got, kj couldn't keep him off the field. And if you think that him sharing time with Allen didn't mask some of his deficiencies you're dreaming.

We can do better at that position. Either kj will improve and hold off the competition behind him or he won't. It's really that simple, but my point is that we can do better than what we got out of him last season.

Allen is a journeyman type; he still got a pretty good contract from the Bengals.

I've always say money talks.

It doesn't make sense to me that you keep bringing up that issue about KJ couldn't keep Allen off the field.

It wasn't me who labeled KJ as "at best" a nickle back and Allen "at best" a dime back. That would be Vinny.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

GP
03-27-2012, 01:16 PM
Or try to convert him to WR and say that's our guy to play opposite AJ!

I know, right?

Rey
03-27-2012, 01:36 PM
Allen is a journeyman type; he still got a pretty good contract from the Bengals.

I've always say money talks.

It doesn't make sense to me that you keep bringing up that issue about KJ couldn't keep Allen off the field.


I thought I was pretty clear...

My point is that we can do better at CB2 than to have one that requires splitting time with a "journeyman type"....

And I'm not even saying KJ can't be that guy. What I'm saying is that he needs to continue to improve if he is going to be that guy.

eriadoc
03-27-2012, 02:23 PM
He's not playing like a Pro Bowler right now. He is playing like a 2nd year corner. To expect the former, is where the disconnect is.

See, I would argue that the disconnect lies in he fact that he was a 1st round pick and we were all told by Smithiak that Kareem Jackson was the most NFL ready corner available. Well, we've seen the other corners taken in that draft perform better, even if they weren't world beaters themselves. One of them has even been to a Pro Bowl. THAT is the disconnect, IMO.

Rey
03-27-2012, 02:27 PM
See, I would argue that the disconnect lies in he fact that he was a 1st round pick and we were all told by Smithiak that Kareem Jackson was the most NFL ready corner available. Well, we've seen the other corners taken in that draft perform better, even if they weren't world beaters themselves. One of them has even been to a Pro Bowl. THAT is the disconnect, IMO.

I didn't respond to that post because I pretty much disagreed with all of it.

Not sure why people automatically go to the pro bowler argument as if that's the next step up...

The next step up for Kareem is not pro bowler...

thunderkyss
03-27-2012, 04:58 PM
See, I would argue that the disconnect lies in he fact that he was a 1st round pick and we were all told by Smithiak that Kareem Jackson was the most NFL ready corner available. Well, we've seen the other corners taken in that draft perform better, even if they weren't world beaters themselves. One of them has even been to a Pro Bowl. THAT is the disconnect, IMO.

Kyle Wilson most definitely has not played better than Kareem. & while McCourty's did play better his rookie season, he definitely did not his sophomore year.

Even Joe Haden has not looked like the pro-bowler Kj is expected to look like. From the 2011 draft, those first round corners have struggled as well, with the exception of Jimmy Smith. Yes, that includes Peterson & Amukamara...


Not sure why people automatically go to the pro bowler argument as if that's the next step up...

The next step up for Kareem is not pro bowler...

Who said it was?

Rey
03-27-2012, 05:13 PM
Who said it was?




He's not playing like a Pro Bowler right now. He is playing like a 2nd year corner. To expect the former, is where the disconnect is.
.


Who has said that they expect him to be playing like a probowler right now?

When you make statements like that it leads me to believe that you believe people expect him to be playing at a pro bowl level. Please show a post anywhere, even in the old kj threads that say he should be playing at a pro bowl level.

thunderkyss
03-27-2012, 08:35 PM
Who has said that they expect him to be playing like a probowler right now?

When you make statements like that it leads me to believe that you believe people expect him to be playing at a pro bowl level. Please show a post anywhere, even in the old kj threads that say he should be playing at a pro bowl level.

How does that equate to the next step being the pro-bowl?

Rey
03-27-2012, 09:23 PM
How does that equate to the next step being the pro-bowl?

That's a question I think you should answer as you made that leap. You brought up the expectations of people thinking he should be a pro bowler when no one has said that. You skipped up to pro bowler.

Why did you skip the possible levels in between?

amazing80
03-28-2012, 06:35 PM
KJ is still young and could imrpove to a pro bowler, but competition is key IMO, BUT I disagree with our front office about always drafting guys to be the competition.....we need vets to bring the added heat to the team, but sadly we cannot afford that. He will remain an average number 2 and hopefully Brandon Harris can add some pressure to KJ and get some playing time

76Texan
03-29-2012, 12:49 PM
I thought I was pretty clear...

My point is that we can do better at CB2 than to have one that requires splitting time with a "journeyman type"....

And I'm not even saying KJ can't be that guy. What I'm saying is that he needs to continue to improve if he is going to be that guy.

A journeyman type is:
- a guy that can start with a team that play cover 2.
(and there are quite a few teams in the NFL that play cover 2 heavily last year like the Pats, the Bears, the Colts, etc.)
- a guy that can be a stop-gap measure that is valuable to have while building a team, giving the young guy(s) time to develop (see Salaam/Brown for example.)

The fact that Allen was able to sign a 2-yr, 8.2 M deal with the Bengals while Tracy Porter (39 starts in 4 yrs) can only get a one-yr deal for 4M shows that Allen is a top-flight journeyman (even if the Bengals are a little desperate due to uncertain status of Leon Hall.)

There's nothing wrong for the Texans to use a veteran like that and it was not a knock against a young player like Jackson.

It's kind of odd that you want to have it both ways.
On the one hand, you had your money on Allen as the starter before last season started.
On the other hand, you keep on knocking on Jackson for having to split some time with Allen.

GP
03-29-2012, 12:59 PM
A journeyman type is:
- a guy that can start with a team that play cover 2.
(and there are quite a few teams in the NFL that play cover 2 heavily last year like the Pats, the Bears, the Colts, etc.)
- a guy that can be a stop-gap measure that is valuable to have while building a team, giving the young guy(s) time to develop (see Salaam/Brown for example.)

The fact that Allen was able to sign a 2-yr, 8.2 M deal with the Bengals while Tracy Porter (39 starts in 4 yrs) can only get a one-yr deal for 4M shows that Allen is a top-flight journeyman (even if the Bengals are a little desperate due to uncertain status of Leon Hall.)

There's nothing wrong for the Texans to use a veteran like that and it was not a knock against a young player like Jackson.

It's kind of odd that you want to have it both ways.
On the one hand, you had your money on Allen as the starter before last season started.
On the other hand, you keep on knocking on Jackson for having to split some time with Allen.

But they're clearly sticking with Kareem, over Allen, for three reasons:

1. KJ is younger than Allen (so we get more miles out of the vehicle)

2. KJ was a first round pick and we all know that every team is going to hold onto that 1st round pick for at least a solid 3 years before turning it loose near the end of the rookie contract.

3. Cheaper than Allen, which was made obvious by the nice payday Allen got with the Bengals.

In other words, we're keeping KJ and we let Allen go for three reasons that have less to do with actual on-the-field performance as it relates to which guy gets the nod and which guy hits the bricks.

Allen got a nice payday with the Bengals because he proved he was a dependable CB2, and KJ remained HERE because of the three reasons I listed--All of which is NOT a football decision, but rather a save-face and a save-money factor.

We're kidding ourselves if we think a guy stays here AND even stays the starter because he's better than the guy behind him on the depth chart. Look no further than Travis Johnson and Amobi Okoye for definitive examples on this theory. Both guys were garbage, showed a flash every 5 or 6 games, and stayed the defacto starters for three years here. Case closed.

Just because KJ remains and Allen left, it's not as if this is Survivor and Allen got voted off the island....he voluntarily left the island because another team saw a good CB and they had the coin to pay him as such. And to quite honest, what would be the point of him staying to split time and act as KJ's wet nurse anyways? On to better things, such as being the full-time CB like he wants to be. Makes money sense, and makes good career sense too.

GP
03-29-2012, 01:07 PM
Putting all things aside here, the fact that Allen was splitting time with KJ tells us all we needs to know.

They were not comfortable letting KJ be the full-time guy. It was a smart move. A brilliant move. Instead of a team knowing they could just line up and dog KJ all game long, we were subbing in Allen and forcing teams to spread their strategy around instead of blazing a trail down KJ Boulevard all game long.

That this is not THE main talking point is puzzling. We're talking about an NFL 2nd year player splitting snaps with a veteran. What the hell is the point of that? The point was to shelter KJ, limit the strategy of opposing o-coordinators, and hopefully grow KJ along the way. I, for one, hope the strategy pays off on that last part of the equation.

It's like needing a coach for How To Date A Girl. How embarrassing would it be if you had to bring your Date Coach along with you on your date you have with a young lady? KJ had a tag-along last year to make sure things went OK for him. Now, in a sense that's a bit sad...in another sense it's wise. However, the fact that it had to be done in the first place is telling.

Nick Saban was right when he didn't think KJ should have come out for the draft early. Dude knew then what we know now.

Mr teX
03-29-2012, 01:35 PM
Putting all things aside here, the fact that Allen was splitting time with KJ tells us all we needs to know.

They were not comfortable letting KJ be the full-time guy. It was a smart move. A brilliant move. Instead of a team knowing they could just line up and dog KJ all game long, we were subbing in Allen and forcing teams to spread their strategy around instead of blazing a trail down KJ Boulevard all game long.

That this is not THE main talking point is puzzling. We're talking about an NFL 2nd year player splitting snaps with a veteran. What the hell is the point of that? The point was to shelter KJ, limit the strategy of opposing o-coordinators, and hopefully grow KJ along the way. I, for one, hope the strategy pays off on that last part of the equation.

It's like needing a coach for How To Date A Girl. How embarrassing would it be if you had to bring your Date Coach along with you on your date you have with a young lady? KJ had a tag-along last year to make sure things went OK for him. Now, in a sense that's a bit sad...in another sense it's wise. However, the fact that it had to be done in the first place is telling.

Nick Saban was right when he didn't think KJ should have come out for the draft early. Dude knew then what we know now.



The point of him splitting time with Allen was to give the guy what he should've gotten in his rookie year; time to get acclimated to the NFL & see how the position is played on this level. More importantly for him, time to reset himself & gain his confidence back by limiting the opportunities teams had to pick on him. Guys who make it on this level typically aren't used to having to do that; being forced to sit & watch that is. Yet & still its something that 90% of young incoming players are forced to do to some degree in the NFL and gives them a different perspective on things. Only the grade A studs (WATT!!!) come right in & dominate & KJ wasn't that coming into the draft & it certainly hasn't bourn itself out over the last couple of years.

Rey
03-29-2012, 01:46 PM
A journeyman type is:
- a guy that can start with a team that play cover 2.
(and there are quite a few teams in the NFL that play cover 2 heavily last year like the Pats, the Bears, the Colts, etc.)
- a guy that can be a stop-gap measure that is valuable to have while building a team, giving the young guy(s) time to develop (see Salaam/Brown for example.)

The fact that Allen was able to sign a 2-yr, 8.2 M deal with the Bengals while Tracy Porter (39 starts in 4 yrs) can only get a one-yr deal for 4M shows that Allen is a top-flight journeyman (even if the Bengals are a little desperate due to uncertain status of Leon Hall.)

There's nothing wrong for the Texans to use a veteran like that and it was not a knock against a young player like Jackson.

It's kind of odd that you want to have it both ways.
On the one hand, you had your money on Allen as the starter before last season started.
On the other hand, you keep on knocking on Jackson for having to split some time with Allen.

1) You're making up your own definition of what a journeyman is. Never heard the cover 2 requirement but whatev...

2) I never "had my money" on Allen to start. What I've been pretty consistent in saying is that both had their faults. And both had their positives. I liked Kareems short passing game defense better and I liked Allen's long ball defense better because I felt he had the superior ball skills.

3) You are the one who was tearing down Allen (and pretty much anoyone else) in defense of Kareem. This is the first positive thing you've said about Allen calling him a "top flight journeyman" pretty much because you had to.

Hard to talk about how bad Allen is in comparison when he's taking a bunch of snaps from Kareem isn't it? :rolleyes:

Rey
03-29-2012, 01:52 PM
The point of him splitting time with Allen was to give the guy what he should've gotten in his rookie year; time to get acclimated to the NFL & see how the position is played on this level.

I disagree with that. I believe they were splitting time because Allen provided valuable play and did some things that Kareem didn't.

And the reason Allen wasn't starting was because of his deficiencies. Both provided value and that was the reason both were playing...IMO.

76Texan
03-29-2012, 02:00 PM
Putting all things aside here, the fact that Allen was splitting time with KJ tells us all we needs to know.

They were not comfortable letting KJ be the full-time guy. It was a smart move. A brilliant move. Instead of a team knowing they could just line up and dog KJ all game long, we were subbing in Allen and forcing teams to spread their strategy around instead of blazing a trail down KJ Boulevard all game long.

That this is not THE main talking point is puzzling. We're talking about an NFL 2nd year player splitting snaps with a veteran. What the hell is the point of that? The point was to shelter KJ, limit the strategy of opposing o-coordinators, and hopefully grow KJ along the way. I, for one, hope the strategy pays off on that last part of the equation.

It's like needing a coach for How To Date A Girl. How embarrassing would it be if you had to bring your Date Coach along with you on your date you have with a young lady? KJ had a tag-along last year to make sure things went OK for him. Now, in a sense that's a bit sad...in another sense it's wise. However, the fact that it had to be done in the first place is telling.

Nick Saban was right when he didn't think KJ should have come out for the draft early. Dude knew then what we know now.

You're still talking the same way as Rey, which is trying to have it both ways.
If we want to talk about sad, we can talk about McCourty.

The Pats was baby-sitting McDourty in cover 2 for more than half a season in his rookie year. Later on in the year, when they started having him playing more on an island, he bombed.
McCourty continued to bomb in his second season as he as asked to play more on an island while KJ showed good improvement.

It's not that easy playing CB.
The fact that the Pats didn't have the luxury of another veteran CB hurt them the last two years when they ranked near the bottom in pass defense.

Another CB that was drafted in the first round was Patrick Robinson, with the Saints ranked 30th in pass defense (one notch better than the Pats).
He's still a back-up. He only started when the Saints begin the game in nickel or when Porter was injured (or recovering),

Kyle Wilson, in the meantime, continued to struggled as a nickel back with the Jets.

Jackson was the correct choice!

76Texan
03-29-2012, 02:04 PM
1) You're making up your own definition of what a journeyman is. Never heard the cover 2 requirement but whatev...

2) I never "had my money" on Allen to start. What I've been pretty consistent in saying is that both had their faults. And both had their positives. I liked Kareems short passing game defense better and I liked Allen's long ball defense better because I felt he had the superior ball skills.

3) You are the one who was tearing down Allen (and pretty much anoyone else) in defense of Kareem. This is the first positive thing you've said about Allen calling him a "top flight journeyman" pretty much because you had to.

Hard to talk about how bad Allen is in comparison when he's taking a bunch of snaps from Kareem isn't it? :rolleyes:
Wrong!

I think you were influenced by the Jason Allen's bad plays thread.

Every CB had their bad plays.
Everybody already knows about his good plays.
In order to evaluate a player, one has to take their whole body of work into consideration.

Don't forget that I was among those who were very concerned that the Texans didn't have a good veteran CB to start the 2010 season.

We questioned the Texans letting go of Reeves and Molden without adding another vet to the roster.

76Texan
03-29-2012, 02:09 PM
1) You're making up your own definition of what a journeyman is. Never heard the cover 2 requirement but whatev...



I read a couple of books that talks about this; one of them was Inside the Helmet.
It talks bout a veteran CB (I forgot his name) who had lost a little speed toward the end of his career but was still very effective when he played with a cover two teams (one of several teams that he had played for).
It's not a requirement; it's one of the scenarios.

76Texan
03-29-2012, 02:18 PM
Also, Rey, you might want to remember that throughout all the discussions, I always emphasized that Allen as "is not the future".

That clearly means he can be a short-term/stop-gap type of guy.

I have always been very consistent with that.

Blake
03-29-2012, 03:00 PM
Weve got this dude on the cheap for 2 more years with an option for a 3rd. He has the tools and pedigree to make it in this league. Why not give him at LEAST his 3 years before we bust him out of the league?

After all he DOUBLED his interceptions this year. ;P

EllisUnit
03-29-2012, 05:03 PM
Wrong!

I think you were influenced by the Jason Allen's bad plays thread.

Every CB had their bad plays.
Everybody already knows about his good plays.
In order to evaluate a player, one has to take their whole body of work into consideration.

Don't forget that I was among those who were very concerned that the Texans didn't have a good veteran CB to start the 2010 season.

We questioned the Texans letting go of Reeves and Molden without adding another vet to the roster.

WOW WOW WOW you always talked down allen and i have never seen you give 1 good comment about him until this thread, and me and u had it out many many times over this. I hope to god ur boy KJ is ready to be an every down CB if not 2010 here we come.

76Texan
03-29-2012, 06:25 PM
WOW WOW WOW you always talked down allen and i have never seen you give 1 good comment about him until this thread, and me and u had it out many many times over this. I hope to god ur boy KJ is ready to be an every down CB if not 2010 here we come.

You must have missed a lot of my posts then.

EllisUnit
03-29-2012, 06:27 PM
You must have missed a lot of my posts then.

oh no i read them all. regardless he is no longer with us, i just hope ur boy has grown up a little, cause it is a different ball game playing full time and not splitting time see 2010 season. Yes he was a rookie but i saw the same CB in 2011 that was there in 2010, just not on the field as much to get exposed as badly !

thunderkyss
03-29-2012, 09:34 PM
Putting all things aside here, the fact that Allen was splitting time with KJ tells us all we needs to know.


Tells us they realized their mistake of letting Kj take the starter job from day one. Most rookie CBs don't start from day one, but they are eased into the game. Usually through the nickel position.

Both Quin & McCain had excellent rookie seasons, neither were asked to start right off the bat & the rest of the defense was playing very aggressively, very fast, & making things happen. A big part of that season was Brian Cushing & Bernard Pollard making things happen at the LOS.

In Kj's rookie season, Cushing got pregnant. Pollard was neutered, as was our pass rush; we lost half our outside rotation before the end of the first game, & our starting free safety gimped up on us.

We crossed our fingers & hoped to God that Kj was going to be able to step up & play like a big boy, at the same time we chastised the F.O. for not bringing in a Veteran to mentor him. We got Jason Allen part way through the season, & Kj was able to play the rookie role.... why as the starter, I don't know. But it doesn't really matter (to me) either way, splitting time with a veteran (who embraced the role of mentor) was the right thing to do.

If you go back & read my posts concerning Jackson vs Allen, you'll see the only "reason" I picked Jackson over Allen was that Jackson was younger & you'd expect him to get better, where Allen was an old dog (who don't normally get better).

But Jason Allen was playing better at the end of the year, imo, than he was at the beginning of the year. Again, imo, it would have been wrong to take him off the field or reduce his time. Not because Kj was the better of the two, but because Allen earned his time.

I don't think it was a knock on Kj that Allen played so much, no more than McCourty being moved to safety, or Wilson being stuck at nickel.

Lucky
03-30-2012, 04:25 AM
Another CB that was drafted in the first round was Patrick Robinson, with the Saints ranked 30th in pass defense (one notch better than the Pats).
He's still a back-up. He only started when the Saints begin the game in nickel or when Porter was injured (or recovering),
According to Pro Football Focus (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/12/cornerbacks-a-glance-at-the-2011-numbers/), Patrick Robinson was among the top 10 CBs in lowest QB rating against.

Lastly, we’re going to give you two tables that show what a quarterback’s rating looks like when they throw at a certain cornerback. Again, you have Revis at the top, with Gamble and Taylor making appearances in the Top 5, but I also get to mention Asante Samuel and the highly impressive Lardarius Webbfor the first time. Here are the lowest (and best) 10 ratings:

1 Darrelle Revis NYJ 45.6
2 Asante Samuel PHI 52.4
3 Chris Gamble CAR 53.3
4 Ike Taylor PIT 54.8
5 Lardarius Webb BLT 56.2
6 Richard Sherman SEA 57.3
7 Patrick Robinson NO 59.3
8 Brandon Carr KC 61.7
9 Carlos Rogers SF 61.9
10 Brent Grimes ATL 62.9Kareem Jackson? Among the bottom 10 CBs in lowest QB rating against.


1 Quentin Jammer SD 129.9
2 Captain Munnerlyn CAR 126.9
3 E.J. Biggers TB 119.2
4 Cedric Griffin MIN 114.1
5 Justin King SL 113.1
6 Kareem Jackson HST 110.9
7 Aqib Talib TB 109.8
8 Devin McCourty NE 106.2
9 Drayton Florence BUF 103.3
10 Aaron Ross NYG 102.8QBs had over a 50 point higher QB rating throwing against Jackson versus Robinson. Despite Jackson's advantage of playing with the Texans pass rush.

Kareem Jackson is still the weak link of this defense. Will he improve and/or can Phillips continue to mask Jackson's weaknesses? The Texans will face the likes of Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Jay Cutler, Matthew Stafford, and Peyton Manning this upcoming season. I guess we will find out soon enough.

welsh texan
03-30-2012, 06:49 AM
According to Pro Football Focus (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/12/cornerbacks-a-glance-at-the-2011-numbers/), Patrick Robinson was among the top 10 CBs in lowest QB rating against.

Kareem Jackson? Among the bottom 10 CBs in lowest QB rating against.

QBs had over a 50 point higher QB rating throwing against Jackson versus Robinson. Despite Jackson's advantage of playing with the Texans pass rush.

Kareem Jackson is still the weak link of this defense. Will he improve and/or can Phillips continue to mask Jackson's weaknesses? The Texans will face the likes of Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Jay Cutler, Matthew Stafford, and Peyton Manning this upcoming season. I guess we will find out soon enough.
I'm not sure we can compare KJ against a nickel corner and gain any useful comparison. Last offseason I was pretty worried about KJ, 76 made a lot of posts defending him which gave me some comfort, although I wasn't completely sold. Then seeing him play last season made me realise that 76 had a point because the improvement was clear. I'll give KJ another 2 years I think, although I want him to improve again next year.

Also notice Ike Taylor on that stat sheet as one of the better CB's but I've seen him rated very poorly by some posters on here.

PFF offer a lot of very interesting stats etc but stats can't tell the whole story. The #1 receiver against us was often shut down last year, while I know that isn't down to KJ, it does affect his stats because QB's were forced to throw on him.

I saw KJ have a few bad games after MW got injured, but I thought the pass rush took a hit and recovered a little later on, and KJ looked better and better after that.

KJ may well be our weakest link, but he isn't necessarily an insurmountable problem, his play is acceptable and that gives us the opportunity to continue to attempt to improve him. Had we not been able to make the playoffs with his play I might have a different opinion.

GP
03-30-2012, 08:23 AM
If we get the KJ from the Ravens playoff game, then we're good to go.

THAT version of KJ was the best I have seen in his two years here. He was in position all game long, and never got beat. There was a circus catch that a WR made on him, but it was nothing more than a great pass and a great circus catch on a pretty good coverage play by KJ.

Maybe that was his big debut that allowed the coaches to say, "OK, I think we can build on that. He played well in a playoff game on the road. Let's go full time with Kareem and see what happens in 2012. It's time to see what we have."

Rey
03-30-2012, 08:27 AM
If we get the KJ from the Ravens playoff game, then we're good to go.

THAT version of KJ was the best I have seen in his two years here. He was in position all game long, and never got beat. There was a circus catch that a WR made on him, but it was nothing more than a great pass and a great circus catch on a pretty good coverage play by KJ.

Maybe that was his big debut that allowed the coaches to say, "OK, I think we can build on that. He played well in a playoff game on the road. Let's go full time with Kareem and see what happens in 2012. It's time to see what we have."

I agree with that. KJ played really well in that game. Really, I like KJ against physical teams like that. I think where he struggles is against more pass oriented teams that stretch the field....Kinda like the teams that we will be playing more of this year...

steelbtexan
03-30-2012, 09:45 AM
The title of this thread is kinda scary?

KJ as a full time CB2, I dont know if I agree with that. Either Carmicheal/Harris needs to step up and be able to split time with KJ. They also need to draft somebody to replace Allen for depth/competition purposes.

welsh texan
03-30-2012, 10:14 AM
The title of this thread is kinda scary?

KJ as a full time CB2, I dont know if I agree with that. Either Carmicheal/Harris needs to step up and be able to split time with KJ. They also need to draft somebody to replace Allen for depth/competition purposes.

Don't mind the concept of him splitting some of his time with one of those guys, but we do have all the numbers we need on the roster right now, Carmichael was on IR last year, and Harris hardly saw the field.

I see KJ and Allen had some different strengths/weaknesses but were on a similar level overall last year. As GP mentioned, KJ finished really strong, not only in the Ravens game but he really came good from around the time of the ATL game onwards.

I don't really see what the problem is, KJ is still some way off from being a long term #2 CB solution, but has shown signs that he can get there eventually, some of the best have had a mediocre first couple of years. Thats not to say KJ is going to be elite or anything, but that theres no way you could write him off from becoming a solid player.

Another point to consider, KJ's play hasn't cost us anything last season, we were able to cover his weaknesses and consistently win games with him playing. As long as he doesn't regress, its not going to be a problem for us to let him develop. We haven't lost a single starter on D from the second half of last season.

b0ng
03-30-2012, 12:36 PM
The title of this thread is kinda scary?

KJ as a full time CB2, I dont know if I agree with that. Either Carmicheal/Harris needs to step up and be able to split time with KJ. They also need to draft somebody to replace Allen for depth/competition purposes.

I think it'd be pretty foolhardy to pay/draft another guy to be CB2. Maybe drafting another one in the mid late rounds is alright but we've had other players split time with guys on the way out and it has turned out alright. With the defense, I'm more concerned with the NT spot than CB2 because I think it is the weaker of the 2 positions.

thunderkyss
03-30-2012, 06:02 PM
According to Pro Football Focus (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/12/cornerbacks-a-glance-at-the-2011-numbers/), Patrick Robinson was among the top 10 CBs in lowest QB rating against.

Kareem Jackson? Among the bottom 10 CBs in lowest QB rating against.


Who here wouldn't trade Kareem Jackson for Aqib Talib?

From the same article:
Numbers without context can be an awful thing and you can read a lot into what these say, but know that they’re by no means definitive on their own or combined.

They also listed the top ten in yards given up:

1 Tramon Williams GB 108 61 1034
2 Devin McCourty NE 101 62 1004
3 Patrick Peterson ARZ 113 67 869
4 DeAngelo Hall WAS 94 63 858
5 Charles Tillman CHI 115 67 850
6 Eric Wright DET 120 75 842
7 Brandon Browner SEA 95 54 830
8 Cary Williams BLT 111 58 822
9 Aaron Ross NYG 84 57 811
10 Kyle Arrington NE 100 54 810


Look at that, two young corners made the list.

Bottom 10 completion percentage

66 Captain Munnerlyn CAR 61 45 73.8
65 Jacob Lacey IND 68 50 73.5
64 Tracy Porter NO 73 52 71.2
63 Jerraud Powers IND 59 41 69.5
62 Orlando Scandrick DAL 62 43 69.4
61 Aaron Ross NYG 84 57 67.9
60 DeAngelo Hall WAS 94 63 67.0
59 Kyle Wilson NYJ 60 40 66.7
58 Cedric Griffin MIN 64 42 65.6
57 Quentin Jammer SD 66 43 65.2


A few more guys on this list who has played well at times, struggled at times. Some guys you know will get better, & most importantly, some guys who have had pretty long NFL careers, where even the worst guy is a very talented player.

steelbtexan
03-30-2012, 06:35 PM
I think it'd be pretty foolhardy to pay/draft another guy to be CB2. Maybe drafting another one in the mid late rounds is alright but we've had other players split time with guys on the way out and it has turned out alright. With the defense, I'm more concerned with the NT spot than CB2 because I think it is the weaker of the 2 positions.

I dont disagree with you.

But a mid/late rd guy like Jamell Fleming would be great for competition.

I've got a very high opinion of Jenkins and Gilmore. If they were there and you had a choice between Jenkins/Gilmore or Hill/Randle which one would you take?

After thinking about it I would probably take the CB's. They would be BPA and would upgrade the talent at a weak spot on the team. IMHO

Rick/Gary will probably go WR and I certainly wouldn't disagree withe pick. But if Rick is truly a BPA guy (doubtful) then the CB's would be the pick.

badboy
03-30-2012, 08:50 PM
I want to see coaches do better with corners we have. Too many needs elsewhere.

stingray
03-31-2012, 03:01 AM
This thread is alive and well. I don't know who pisses people off more, Dexman or Kareem Jackson.

EllisUnit
03-31-2012, 09:07 AM
Its so bad that Jacksons wife dont even trust Kareem to "cover" his kids at night. So how can we trust the guy !!!
:kitten:

foo82
03-31-2012, 01:06 PM
Its so bad that Jacksons wife dont even trust Kareem to "cover" his kids at night. So how can we trust the guy !!!
:kitten:

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj998o16Cg1qixleeo1_500.gif