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False Start
03-21-2012, 12:50 PM
adam schefter ‏ @adamschefter



sean payton suspended one year. Mickey loomis 8 game and $500,000 fine. Saints fined $500,000 and a second round pick in 2012 and 2012.


wow!

Texan_Bill
03-21-2012, 12:51 PM
Oh... Do you think so Doctor?

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1922996&postcount=98

False Start
03-21-2012, 12:52 PM
Oh... Do you think so Doctor?

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1922996&postcount=98

I didnt even read that thread, my bad. :)

Vinny
03-21-2012, 12:52 PM
Good, Loomis should have been given the same one year suspension as well. 500K isn't big enough to me either.

Texan_Bill
03-21-2012, 12:54 PM
I didnt even read that thread, my bad. :)

No worries cat.... Just ribbing ya!!!

gwallaia
03-21-2012, 12:59 PM
I figured the NFL would make an example out of the Saints.

Honoring Earl 34
03-21-2012, 01:02 PM
who dat , who dat

Dutchrudder
03-21-2012, 01:11 PM
who dat , who dat

More like, who was dat?

Goodbye Saints, Brees gets another year older, and his time is running out.

El Tejano
03-21-2012, 01:17 PM
Wow, this is crazy. One year suspension for the head coach. What about Gregg Williams?

GlassHalfFull
03-21-2012, 01:21 PM
.Wow, this is crazy. One year suspension for the head coach. What about Gregg Williams?

Gregg Williams is suspended indefinitely, per league source.

Vinny
03-21-2012, 01:28 PM
In addition to announcing discipline on the New Orleans Saints and individual employees for the operation of an illegal bounty program, Commissioner Roger Goodell also instructed all clubs today to certify that no such program exists at any NFL team.
In a memo to NFL clubs, Commissioner Goodell directed the principal owner of every NFL team to meet with the head coach and confirm that the club does not operate a similar pay-for-performance or bounty program and to instruct his coach that no such program is permissible and that if such a program exists, it must be terminated immediately.
Each principal owner and head coach must certify this in writing to the commissioner by March 30. http://nflcommunications.com/2012/03/21/all-clubs-directed-to-ensure-no-bounty-programs-exist/

Double Barrel
03-21-2012, 01:30 PM
wow...I don't know if I have ever heard of a year suspension for a head coach.

Flip side: They still have a Lombardi trophy, though. I could live with it if I was a Saints fan.

Not that I'm condoning what occurred by any means...just sayin', that championship trophy is what the game is all about.

This league is bi-polar. I've got DVDs sold by the NFL that celebrate big, brutal hits, most of which would be considered illegal today. I've seen recent documentaries on NFLN about Al Davis ("If you ain't cheating, you aren't trying") and the 'roided up Steelers teams of the '70's.

It's an interesting paradox to see a league celebrate it's brutal past as they try to transform themselves into something nice and softer.

Don't mind me...just a cynic sittin' in the corner plopping out brain droppings without a filter right now...train of thought stuff...

chicagotexan2
03-21-2012, 01:34 PM
Damn the commish dropped the hammer big time.

The1ApplePie
03-21-2012, 01:36 PM
wow...I don't know if I have ever heard of a year suspension for a head coach.

Flip side: They still have a Lombardi trophy, though. I could live with it if I was a Saints fan.
Not that I'm condoning what occurred by any means...just sayin', that championship trophy is what the game is all about.

This league is bi-polar. I've got DVDs sold by the NFL that celebrate big, brutal hits, most of which would be considered illegal today. I've seen recent documentaries on NFLN about Al Davis ("If you ain't cheating, you aren't trying") and the 'roided up Steelers teams of the '70's.

It's an interesting paradox to see a league celebrate it's brutal past as they try to transform themselves into something nice and softer.

Don't mind me...just a cynic sittin' in the corner plopping out brain droppings without a filter right now...train of thought stuff...

No matter what the records say, Reggie still has the big trophy, and USC are National Champ. Vacating anything is a joke.

Glad to see Roger protecting Fantasy Football... I mean the players' safety.

How many games did Belicheat miss again?

Vinny
03-21-2012, 01:42 PM
wow...I don't know if I have ever heard of a year suspension for a head coach.

Flip side: They still have a Lombardi trophy, though. I could live with it if I was a Saints fan.

Not that I'm condoning what occurred by any means...just sayin', that championship trophy is what the game is all about.

This league is bi-polar. I've got DVDs sold by the NFL that celebrate big, brutal hits, most of which would be considered illegal today. I've seen recent documentaries on NFLN about Al Davis ("If you ain't cheating, you aren't trying") and the 'roided up Steelers teams of the '70's.

It's an interesting paradox to see a league celebrate it's brutal past as they try to transform themselves into something nice and softer.

Don't mind me...just a cynic sittin' in the corner plopping out brain droppings without a filter right now...train of thought stuff...ain't the same league as in the 70's. I think it is one thing to have the players have a little pool but when you have management directing your guys to hurt someone, you are totally, totally, totally crossing the line. Your Son plays football...why do you think that this is ok or is it ok that if your son ever played in the NFL you would be ok with team management schemeing to break his leg or put him out of the game with a concussion? Is that what you are saying? You think this game is too soft a game because its not ok to intentionally hurt someone?

Mr teX
03-21-2012, 01:49 PM
That boy roger..........he went straight deebo on em'

GlassHalfFull
03-21-2012, 01:49 PM
ain't the same league as in the 70's. I think it is one thing to have the players have a little pool but when you have management directing your guys to hurt someone, you are totally, totally, totally crossing the line. Your Son plays football...why do you think that this is ok or is it ok that if your son ever played in the NFL you would be ok with team management schemeing to break his leg or put him out of the game with a concussion? Is that what you are saying? You think this game is too soft a game because its not ok to intentionally hurt someone?

I read DB as saying how the league is bi polar on the issue.

Not that he condones either position, but how the league puts out conflicting messages. Hard for the players to know what is ok or not based on that.

Blake
03-21-2012, 01:50 PM
Did not see that coming. Cheating is ok as long as you pay the fine and stop. But a bounty program is grounds for suspension. Got it.

majestrate
03-21-2012, 01:51 PM
*facepalm*

Why are you comparing video taping another team to promoting the injury of other players? Apples and oranges

Thorn
03-21-2012, 01:52 PM
As a head coach, if you are aware of an active bounty program on your team, and you do not stop it, you should be banned forever from being a head coach again.

majestrate
03-21-2012, 01:53 PM
As a head coach, if you are aware of an active bounty program on your team, and you do not stop it, you should be banned forever from being a head coach again.
Pretty sure that Goodell just set the example. If this happens again, the penalties will be even more severe

Kimmy
03-21-2012, 01:54 PM
As a head coach, if you are aware of an active bounty program on your team, and you do not stop it, you should be banned forever from being a head coach again.

I think I agree with you on this one.

However

I am sure more teams have done this. The Saints are the ones that got caught ala Patriots Spygate.

I am very glad it came out, was so harshly penalized in an effort to stop it.

HoustonFrog
03-21-2012, 01:56 PM
I think this is B.S.

If it was proven that Payton "ordered" to hurt people...not hit hard, I can see it. But their "bounty" system was the same as a large amount of teams in the NFL. Guys like Darren Woodson and others said they had pots for big hits and plays...that they wanted to hit a guy hard in the rules of the game and knock him out of the game.

In Roger Goodalls world it goes like this..."Suspend him for a year because of player safety....how about that 18 game season." A joke.

Vinny
03-21-2012, 01:58 PM
I read DB as saying how the league is bi polar on the issue.

Not that he condones either position, but how the league puts out conflicting messages. Hard for the players to know what is ok or not based on that.I think you are right but I think they have been pretty consistent the last few years. We used to see shows like JACK'D UP and they used to revel in that stuff...but they cut that out and cleaned up the game a few years back. If they didn't penalize Payton harshly then I would feel like they were sending a bi-polar message since they have come down so hard on the players in recent years so I see this as consistent, not inconsistent.

Blake
03-21-2012, 01:58 PM
*facepalm*

Why are you comparing video taping another team to promoting the injury of other players? Apples and oranges

They're still both fruit.

The1ApplePie
03-21-2012, 01:58 PM
ain't the same league as in the 70's. I think it is one thing to have the players have a little pool but when you have management directing your guys to hurt someone, you are totally, totally, totally crossing the line. Your Son plays football...why do you think that this is ok or is it ok that if your son ever played in the NFL you would be ok with team management schemeing to break his leg or put him out of the game with a concussion? Is that what you are saying? You think this game is too soft a game because its not ok to intentionally hurt someone?

Outside of being scared of law suits, I still think its a crock to believe the NFL gives one **** about player safety.

Offense = Ratings

Defensive players still get ear-holed and cut blocked while the rules make it easier every year to score more points.

Spygate helped a major market team score more points. Therefore it was good for the NFL and Belicheat got a slap on the wrist.

Bounty Gate could have/did hurt players, but they were offensive guys. Plus, NO is a small market, so Goodell can put the whoop ass stick to them and not lose ratings.

Would the penalties be this bad if it was NE, Dallas, NYG, NYJ, etc?

Just my tin foil hat moment of the day. I'm starting to sound like Dex:kubepalm:

Vinny
03-21-2012, 02:01 PM
Outside of being scared of law suits, I still think its a crock to believe the NFL gives one **** about player safety.

Offense = Ratings

Defensive players still get ear-holed and cut blocked while the rules make it easier every year to score more points.

Spygate helped a major market team score more points. Therefore it was good for the NFL and Belicheat got a slap on the wrist.

Bounty Gate could have/did hurt players, but they were offensive guys. Plus, NO is a small market, so Goodell can put the whoop ass stick to them and not lose ratings.

Would the penalties be this bad if it was NE, Dallas, NYG, NYJ, etc?

Just my tin foil hat moment of the day. I'm starting to sound like Dex:kubepalm: If you had a Son playing I think you would feel different about Management sanctioning hurting opponents on purpose. There is a massive difference in some guys making a competitive pool about who can deliver a big blow, but once Management tells you to go out and intentionally hurt someone its no longer a game...its friggin' throwing Christians to the Lions.

The1ApplePie
03-21-2012, 02:06 PM
If you had a Son playing I think you would feel different about Management sanctioning hurting opponents on purpose. There is a massive difference in some guys making a competitive pool about who can deliver a big blow, but once Management tells you to go out and intentionally hurt someone its no longer a game...its friggin' throwing Christians to the Lions.

For the record, I hate the Saints and think they should have been punished to hell. I just think it would have been lighter if it had been against defensive players or was by a big market team.

The "management" at my high school had the same policy (no money though). I agree that I would not want my son playing for a coaching staff like that, let alone against a team with such leaders.

majestrate
03-21-2012, 02:07 PM
There is a massive difference in some guys making a competitive pool about who can deliver a big blow, but once Management tells you to go out and intentionally hurt someone its no longer a game...its friggin' throwing Christians to the Lions.
This. Exactly this. I was saying the same thing on ESPN's comments when the investigation story first broke.

Edit: Okay, before "Blake the Comedian" quotes me again, I said most of that

Thorn
03-21-2012, 02:09 PM
This. Exactly this. I was saying the same thing on ESPN's comments when the investigation story first broke.

Yes. It is one thing to bemoan the wussyfication of the NFL, which I do, but it's quite another to condone deliberately injuring another player. Those are two very seperate things.

Vinny
03-21-2012, 02:10 PM
Dan Reeves agrees with the NFL...podcast from 610 a little bit ago

http://houston.cbslocal.com/2012/03/21/sean-payton-had-to-know-this-was-going-on/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

majestrate
03-21-2012, 02:11 PM
I was a Jints fan when Dan Reeves was coaching. Much dislike for that guy.

/tangent, with apologies

Hardcore Texan
03-21-2012, 02:14 PM
Who dat gonna coach dem saints?

The1ApplePie
03-21-2012, 02:19 PM
From looking at comments on other boards, I think a "Hurricane Goodell" meme might be incoming

gwallaia
03-21-2012, 02:20 PM
I tried to go to the one of the Saints message boards but the server was too busy.

Kimmy
03-21-2012, 02:24 PM
I tried to go to the one of the Saints message boards but the server was too busy.

I bet!!!

houstonspartan
03-21-2012, 02:25 PM
A couple of things.

1) I think the reason that the penalty was so harsh was because the Saints got caught, were told to stop, and kept doing it. That's the bigger picture here. It's not like they were just discovered having instituted a bounty program. After an investigation, they were confronted and were told to discontinue doing this. Instead of discontinuing it, they not only kept doing it, but they ramped it up into a formal, organized program and process.

2) This is a reminder that we, as Texans fans, if we ever get to a solid, winning streak where we are truly a elite franchise, should keep it classy when we root for our team. Yes, we should be happy and root for our Texans and be proud, but, there's a line. Saints fans have taken their team's success WAAAY to far, and are some of the most arrogant fans I have ever seen: in your face, chanting who dis, dat and the other, CONSTANTLY talking about Hurricane Katrina (and then, the BP Oil Spill), yammering about how their city is the only city in the world with any kind of culture, slamming other cities for no reason, taunting other teams for not taking Drew Brees (ok, I might give them that one, but still...), harping about their supposedly-great defense, and on and on and so on and so forth.

Enough already.

I used to like the Saints, because I thought their "story" was interesting, and it was nice to see a new NFL Powerhouse emerge to challenge New England, but, now, I really don't care about the Saints either way.Their fans have turned me against them.

This penalty was more than justified.

Vinny
03-21-2012, 02:36 PM
The statement of Roger Goodell said it all:

“We are all accountable and responsible for player health and safety and the integrity of the game. We will not tolerate conduct or a culture that undermines those priorities. No one is above the game or the rules that govern it. Respect for the game and the people who participate in it will not be compromised. A combination of elements made this matter particularly unusual and egregious. When there is targeting of players for injury and cash rewards over a three-year period, the involvement of the coaching staff, and three years of denials and willful disrespect of the rules, a strong and lasting message must be sent that such conduct is totally unacceptable and has no place in the game.”

Rey
03-21-2012, 02:37 PM
I think this is B.S.

If it was proven that Payton "ordered" to hurt people...not hit hard, I can see it. But their "bounty" system was the same as a large amount of teams in the NFL. Guys like Darren Woodson and others said they had pots for big hits and plays...that they wanted to hit a guy hard in the rules of the game and knock him out of the game.

In Roger Goodalls world it goes like this..."Suspend him for a year because of player safety....how about that 18 game season." A joke.

This is what I was wondering about...

Honestly, I haven't paid much attention to this bounty gate stuff...

Were they paying players to actively seek to injure other players? Or were they paying for big hits that let to injuries? Or were they just paying for big hits in general?

SheTexan
03-21-2012, 02:39 PM
Not tough enough! JMO. What are they gonna do to the players that participated?

houstonspartan
03-21-2012, 02:46 PM
Not tough enough! JMO. What are they gonna do to the players that participated?

I think the player's penalties are next.

GP
03-21-2012, 02:48 PM
Not tough enough! JMO. What are they gonna do to the players that participated?

Nothing will be done to the players because lawyers for players will say the players acted on directions set forth by coaches.

It would be a Scapegoat defense with players crying..."I didn't want to hurt Brett. But I had to. (sniff, sniff)...."

HoustonFrog
03-21-2012, 02:49 PM
This is what I was wondering about...

Honestly, I haven't paid much attention to this bounty gate stuff...

Were they paying players to actively seek to injure other players? Or were they paying for big hits that let to injuries? Or were they just paying for big hits in general?

This is where it gets tricky. As I said many players said their teams had the same thing, it just wasn't called a bounty. If you knocked a guy out with a great hit or not, you got some of the pool. If Gregg Williams knew of injury pool, then fine him but if Payton knew secondhand of a pool but it wasn't with intent to injure, then I think this is B.S.

Jimmy Johnson on Twitter

Jimmy Johnson ‏ @JimmyJohnson I'm shocked how severe the penalty is vs the Saints and Sean Payton. I don't agree with it...like a 8 million dollar fine vs HC..wrong!

jjjezebel
03-21-2012, 02:49 PM
Player punishments are still being determined. For those, the NFL has to consult with the Player's Association.

Nothing will be done to the players because lawyers for players will say the players acted on directions set forth by coaches.

It would be a Scapegoat defense with players crying..."I didn't want to hurt Brett. But I had to. (sniff, sniff)...."

But yeah, I expect a lot of this. Though it's a bunch of crap, because the players were doing it for cashy-money.

Showtime100
03-21-2012, 02:50 PM
Dear Commish The Honorable Roger Goodell,

Can we please have those two 2nd round picks??

Vinny
03-21-2012, 02:50 PM
Nothing will be done to the players because lawyers for players will say the players acted on directions set forth by coaches.

It would be a Scapegoat defense with players crying..."I didn't want to hurt Brett. But I had to. (sniff, sniff)...."they have already stated that several players will be punished for participating and covering up.

Vinny
03-21-2012, 02:51 PM
This is where it gets tricky. As I said many players said their teams had the same thing, it just wasn't called a bounty. If you knocked a guy out with a great hit or not, you got some of the pool. If Gregg Williams knew of injury pool, then fine him but if Payton knew secondhand of a pool but it wasn't with intent to injure, then I think this is B.S.

Jimmy Johnson on TwitterGoodell said himself that Payton lied to him and that Payton knew about it and that it included injury to players...what more do you want?

ObsiWan
03-21-2012, 02:51 PM
Nothing will be done to the players because lawyers for players will say the players acted on directions set forth by coaches.

It would be a Scapegoat defense with players crying..."I didn't want to hurt Brett. But I had to. (sniff, sniff)...."

I disagree. This "bounty" is akin to doing an extra credit project like when we were in school. You can take up the challenge and go for the extra credit or you can choose not to.

This bounty thing wasn't an "order" it was an "offer". The players could take it or leave it on the table. Their call.

Kimmy
03-21-2012, 02:51 PM
This is going to be very tricky for the players. Not only could the players fined file grievances, but the players that were TARGETED could also file them as well.

This is ground breaking all the way around.

Nothing will be done to the players because lawyers for players will say the players acted on directions set forth by coaches.

It would be a Scapegoat defense with players crying..."I didn't want to hurt Brett. But I had to. (sniff, sniff)...."

Player punishments are still being determined. For those, the NFL has to consult with the Player's Association.



But yeah, I expect a lot of this.

ObsiWan
03-21-2012, 02:53 PM
Dear Commish The Honorable Roger Goodell,

Can we please have those two 2nd round picks??

:lol:

Hey, I agree!
...no need to let them go to waste.

paycheck71
03-21-2012, 02:57 PM
I also heard on NFLN a little earlier that there was at least one instance of a person outside of the Saints organization contributing to the bounty. I think they mentioned someone contributed $5K. We have no idea who that was, but when outside elements get involved, it's a whole new ball game...

HoustonFrog
03-21-2012, 03:00 PM
Goodell said himself that Payton lied to him and that Payton knew about it and that it included injury to players...what more do you want?

See, I never heard that. I thought Williams came clean but Payton knew of it but not of what was directly involved. My issue is how are they drawing the line of who "knew" of trying to injure vs hit hard to make a play. I understand the message when injuring but a large group of ex players already said that their teams just had side bets like this with interceptions, hard hits, etc. I just think this is a very slippery slope. Goodell just shouldn't put it under the umbrella of safety when he has shown he can't think straight on safety....i.e. 18 game season.

HOU-TEX
03-21-2012, 03:02 PM
The Saints are now going to pay for the wrong doings by the one and only Gregg Williams.

I've said it many a times, I'm sooo happy we didn't bring him in here

GlassHalfFull
03-21-2012, 03:13 PM
I disagree. This "bounty" is akin to doing an extra credit project like when we were in school. You can take up the challenge and go for the extra credit or you can choose not to.

This bounty thing wasn't an "order" it was an "offer". The players could take it or leave it on the table. Their call.

And from what I have read about the bounty, the players put up money for the pool. So if they put money into the pool, they are culpable.

GlassHalfFull
03-21-2012, 03:14 PM
I also heard on NFLN a little earlier that there was at least one instance of a person outside of the Saints organization contributing to the bounty. I think they mentioned someone contributed $5K. We have no idea who that was, but when outside elements get involved, it's a whole new ball game...

That was in an email to Sean Payton, someone sent an email to him saying to put him in for $5k. When confronted with the email, Payton admitted he knew about it.

Double Barrel
03-21-2012, 03:16 PM
ain't the same league as in the 70's. I think it is one thing to have the players have a little pool but when you have management directing your guys to hurt someone, you are totally, totally, totally crossing the line. Your Son plays football...why do you think that this is ok or is it ok that if your son ever played in the NFL you would be ok with team management schemeing to break his leg or put him out of the game with a concussion? Is that what you are saying? You think this game is too soft a game because its not ok to intentionally hurt someone?

I don't know, man...Mario got a $100 million to do what? Knock the ever living crap out of QBs.

It's a fine line. Not condoning a bounty program, but in the big picture, there is not a whole lot of difference between it and paying a dude mad money to achieve the exact same end result.

We are kidding ourselves if we do not recognize the basic fact that we cheer as fans when one of our defensive players slams an opposing QB to the ground. I have been to way too many NFL games and felt the crowd's reaction to those hits.

I think you are reading to much into my words with the stuff about my son. That's too much assumption. I'm just making observations about the bi-polar nature of the NFL these days and how they market the product that they are selling us.

Heck, my son has been trained to cut block in a zone scheme, something still legal in the NFL in spite of the on-going debate regarding it's potential to hurt defenders. It's only a matter of time before the NFL outlaws this technique.

They tell these players that it's "war" and they are "going into battle". You know the locker room rhetoric. Considering opponents "enemies" and other phrases borrowed from war and conflict.

Mixed signals. Now it's be mean! But not too mean. Hit hard! But not too hard.

Again, I was clear in my initial message that I do not condone a bounty program. But, I do see a paradox in the way this league operates.

I read DB as saying how the league is bi polar on the issue.

Not that he condones either position, but how the league puts out conflicting messages. Hard for the players to know what is ok or not based on that.

My thoughts exactly. I bought DVDs from the NFL just a few years ago. It was not too long ago that the league celebrated big, nasty hits. It's the football we grew up on. Now there is a clear agenda to promote offense, protect offensive players, and it's about selling product to make money.

Look at Amazon.com right now:

NFL: Moment of Impact (2007) (http://www.amazon.com/NFL-Moment-Impact-Dick-Butkus/dp/B000S2XD8G/ref=pd_sbs_mov_1/179-6239584-1206668)

"First you hear the breathing, then you feel the wind coming through your helmet's ear hole. Suddenly you're down, and you're looking through your helmet's ear hole. Pain? That's for tomorrow morning. Right now you've gotta focus - focus on the next play and try not to focus on the next Moment of Impact. Moment of Impact takes you through the rugged world of the NFL like never before. You'll go into the huddle, up to the line, and under the pile with some of the game's roughest customers - men like Ray Lewis, Patrick Kearney, John Lynch and Michael Strahan. You'll meet some of the greatest defensive units of all time and find out which teams have a "tradition by position". But hard-hitting isn't limited to defense - we'll take a look at offensive players who can dish it out as well as they can take it as well as the art of being a "gunner" on special teams. Presented by NFL Films, Moment of Impact combines exclusive player-wires as well as game sound and interviews to provide an intense football experience you just can't get on Sunday afternoons. Buy yours today!"

ChampionTexan
03-21-2012, 03:36 PM
Goodell said himself that Payton lied to him and that Payton knew about it and that it included injury to players...what more do you want?

And this is a big part of why the penalties are so severe. They lied about it, and then failed to follow up on the NFL's initial inquiry into this. The Saints were told to end the program after their Super Bowl season (a directive that not only didn't come with a punishment attached, but wasn't made public). Today we see that the list of targeted QB's included Cam Newton - meaning it continued throughout this past season.

Kimmy
03-21-2012, 03:43 PM
Sources reporting Jeremy Shockey was the snitch.

Color me shocked ... NOT!

Showtime100
03-21-2012, 03:44 PM
Sources reporting Jeremy Shockey was the snitch.

Color me shocked ... NOT!

You're kidding. :lol:

This day just keeps getting better.

ChampionTexan
03-21-2012, 03:44 PM
I also heard on NFLN a little earlier that there was at least one instance of a person outside of the Saints organization contributing to the bounty. I think they mentioned someone contributed $5K. We have no idea who that was, but when outside elements get involved, it's a whole new ball game...

I'm guessing your talking about this guy -

One name stood out among the accused parties in the Saints' bounty scandal. Mike Ornstein.
How a two-time felon could surface in the landmark probe has puzzled Saints fans, many of whom wonder how a team that champions a commitment to character in the locker room could foster a relationship with a known criminal, albeit one of the white-collar variety.

If nothing else, it indicates a glaring case of bad judgment by the team's brain trust.

My guess is not only did this component eliminate this instance from the "Everybody's doing it" defense, it contributed to what I characterize as a perfect storm type combination of rule-breaking, lieing and stupidity that cost Payton and Williams so much.

LINK (http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2012/03/mike_ornsteins_association_wit.html)

False Start
03-21-2012, 03:48 PM
While it is shocking, I cant say I'll shed a tear, or feel sorry for them I never have , and never will be a Saints fan. :kitten:

Vinny
03-21-2012, 03:54 PM
I don't know, man...Mario got a $100 million to do what? Knock the ever living crap out of QBs.
no, Mario got paid to play football - something your son does. He isn't paid to hurt people on purpose. I played football too but I'd be shocked that some coach told a player to hurt me on purpose. Good clean hard hits are one thing, but having the people running the league telling you to give some guy a concussion or break a leg is thug behavior and evil if you ask me. I'd quote the rest of your post but I'm a fan of big hits and physical play too...but I am a fan of clean football, not dirty thug-like behavior being condoned by the people in charge (so that is all I take to task in your post). If a few guys go over the top that's one thing and you can't stop that, but once the people in charge cross the line and let it be known that the league is just another version of throwing Christians to the Lions I'm out...I'm not a fan of intentional pain and suffering. There is enough of that with clean play and a few guys pushing the envelope too far.

Double Barrel
03-21-2012, 03:58 PM
no, Mario got paid to play football - something your son does. He isn't paid to hurt people on purpose. I played football too but I'd be shocked that some coach told a player to hurt me on purpose. Good clean hard hits are one thing, but having the people running the league telling you to give some guy a concussion or break a leg is thug behavior and evil if you ask me. I'd quote the rest of your post but I'm a fan of big hits and physical play too...but I am a fan of clean football, not dirty thug-like behavior being condoned by the people in charge (so that is all I take to task in your post). If a few guys go over the top that's one thing and you can't stop that, but once the people in charge cross the line and let it be known that the league is just another version of throwing Christians to the Lions I'm out...I'm not a fan of intentional pain and suffering. There is enough of that with clean play and a few guys pushing the envelope too far.

I agree with you in principle, man, which is why I said it's a fine line between the two.

As far as hurting people on purpose, I have always understood that there is a difference between hurting someone and injuring someone. I think most defenders want to hurt someone. I do not think most of them want to injure another player.

Old school quotes not really applicable but funny anyway:

"I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault."
~ Jack Tatum

"I wouldn't ever set out to hurt anyone deliberately unless it was important – like a league game."
~ Dick Butkus

Ole Miss Texan
03-21-2012, 04:05 PM
The players are paid to play football and win games. That includes the physical nature of the sport of tackling, hitting players and forcing fumbles.

But what a bounty system does is support the concept of HURTING an opposing player. That is beyond unsportsmanlike right there. Football is physical enough as it is, purporsely hurting someone is not football.

Plus you get into the whole notion of extra money to players for their play on the field. This circumvents their contract, NFL rules and the salary cap. What is to prevent an McNair from saying, "Cushing, here is your contract for $2 million per year for the next five years. But if you give Peyton a concussion or get him taken out of the game... there's an extra $2 million in cash from my pocket to yours." Yes that's grossly exhagerated but having a pool of money for players to do something circumvents the salary cap. You can't pay players anything outside of what their contract states.

What's going to be interesting is when this investigation leads to finding these cash payments being made and the players not reporting it on their tax return. Now you've got the IRS after them for tax evasion.

:cheese:

Porky
03-21-2012, 05:31 PM
I was shocked at the penalties, but to be honest I think it's justified. And this will put a very quick end to any other bounty programs.

DB has a point. It is a fine line - but there IS a line. It's like boxing in a way. You can have a good clean boxing fight where both guys come out of it bloodied but you know it was clean...or you can have Mike Tyson biting off someone's ear.

To me it's kind of like falling in love. You can't truly describe it but you know it when you feel it...ie the difference between lust and love. When I see a hard, clean hit, I love it too, but when I see a dirty hit I get ill. Players can and do get injured with clean hits, or even no hits all the time. But for a team and staff to incentivize it with monatary gifts reminds me of the movie The Running Man (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093894/)
. It is beyond the pale and something that should never be condoned or tolerated.

Rey
03-21-2012, 06:18 PM
no, Mario got paid to play football - something your son does. He isn't paid to hurt people on purpose. I played football too but I'd be shocked that some coach told a player to hurt me on purpose. Good clean hard hits are one thing, but having the people running the league telling you to give some guy a concussion or break a leg is thug behavior and evil if you ask me. I'd quote the rest of your post but I'm a fan of big hits and physical play too...but I am a fan of clean football, not dirty thug-like behavior being condoned by the people in charge (so that is all I take to task in your post). If a few guys go over the top that's one thing and you can't stop that, but once the people in charge cross the line and let it be known that the league is just another version of throwing Christians to the Lions I'm out...I'm not a fan of intentional pain and suffering. There is enough of that with clean play and a few guys pushing the envelope too far.

I agree with you in principle, man, which is why I said it's a fine line between the two.

As far as hurting people on purpose, I have always understood that there is a difference between hurting someone and injuring someone. I think most defenders want to hurt someone. I do not think most of them want to injure another player.

Old school quotes not really applicable but funny anyway:

"I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault."
~ Jack Tatum

"I wouldn't ever set out to hurt anyone deliberately unless it was important – like a league game."
~ Dick Butkus

We were always told "football isn't a contact sport, it's a collision sport..."

People get hurt and injured in collisions...

I never set out to injur someone, but I damn sure wanted to hurt folks. I wanted to hit people so hard that they had to get out of the game. I didn't want to break bones or anything like that and I never even thought about concsussions until someone got one....

But I did want to knock the crap out of folks and see them slow to get up....

If they were injured so be it...If they took the hits and kept getting back up, so be it...

Corrosion
03-21-2012, 06:47 PM
wow...I don't know if I have ever heard of a year suspension for a head coach.

Flip side: They still have a Lombardi trophy, though. I could live with it if I was a Saints fan.

Not that I'm condoning what occurred by any means...just sayin', that championship trophy is what the game is all about.

This league is bi-polar. I've got DVDs sold by the NFL that celebrate big, brutal hits, most of which would be considered illegal today. I've seen recent documentaries on NFLN about Al Davis ("If you ain't cheating, you aren't trying") and the 'roided up Steelers teams of the '70's.

It's an interesting paradox to see a league celebrate it's brutal past as they try to transform themselves into something nice and softer.

Don't mind me...just a cynic sittin' in the corner plopping out brain droppings without a filter right now...train of thought stuff...

They should have stripped it from them too ....

Funny we hear that this bounty thing is unprecedented .... How quickly we forget that Buddy Ryan did this same thing when he was here in Houston , I recall players speaking openly of it at the time .... particularly a special teams player. (remember the army helmet?).
Then again with Ryan in Philly some years later ....

I think every one of them involved , both players and coaches. should be banned from the league for life. Intentionally attempting to injure another player is just going .... too far.

kingh99
03-21-2012, 08:02 PM
I never liked the cut of Greg Williams jib. Seems like an odd duck. Now we find out he's a masochistic freak. And Peyton seemed equally odd to me. But I figured that was because he allegedly enjoys getting tight with a Vike or two. I believe that was a phrase originally coined by Brett Farve. He went into rehab for pills back in the day.

Texan_Bill
03-21-2012, 08:09 PM
"I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault."
~ Jack Tatum


Not border on. They are!!!!

Signed,

Darryl Stingley (posthumously)

HoustonFrog
03-21-2012, 08:30 PM
More Jimmy Johnson Twitter



Jimmy Johnson ‏ @JimmyJohnson
Bounties have been around for years throughout the league on a much smaller basis...lot of hypocrites out there

Jimmy Johnson ‏ @JimmyJohnson
99% of NO hits I see on ESPN are legal hits...are we still celebrating Big Hits?

ADTpaul
03-21-2012, 08:58 PM
does this mean that every pick slides up one slot since the 2nd round saints pick has not selection?

Kimmy
03-21-2012, 09:06 PM
does this mean that every pick slides up one slot since the 2nd round saints pick has not selection?

Hmmmm :thinking: excellent question.

The1ApplePie
03-21-2012, 09:17 PM
Dear Commish The Honorable Roger Goodell,

Can we please have those two 2nd round picks??

A better punishment for the Saints:

They must trade Drew Brees to the Texans in exchange for Jacoby Jones

toronto
03-22-2012, 06:46 AM
Let this be a lesson to all NFL teams. Lie to Roger Goddell and he will **** you up. He takes no prisoners and doesn't care who you are.

Dutchrudder
03-22-2012, 11:06 AM
The NFL's statement on the evidence against the team.

The statement released by the NFL on Wednesday listed the following findings in the investigation:

1. The Saints defensive team operated a pay-for-performance/bounty program, primarily funded by players, during the 2009, 2010, and 2011 seasons. Under that program, players regularly made cash "donations" to a pool, and were "fined" for mental errors, loafing, penalties, and the like. At least one assistant coach (defensive coordinator Williams) also occasionally contributed to the pool. There is no evidence that any club money was contributed to the program.

2. Payments were made for plays such as interceptions or fumble recoveries. All such payments are against league rules. Payments also were made for plays on which opposing players were injured. In addition, specific players were sometimes targeted. The investigation showed bounties being placed on four quarterbacks of opposing teams - Brett Favre, Cam Newton, Aaron Rodgers, and Kurt Warner. Multiple sources have confirmed that several players pledged funds toward bounties on specific opposing players, with defensive captain Jonathan Vilma offering $10,000 to any player who knocked Brett Favre out of the NFC Championship Game in 2010.

3. Coach Williams acknowledged that he designed and implemented the program with the assistance of certain defensive players. He said that he did so after being told by Payton that his assignment was to make the defense "nasty." coach Williams described his role as overseeing record keeping, defining payout amounts, deciding on who received payouts, and distributing envelopes with cash to players who "earned" rewards.

4. In each of the 2009-2011 seasons, the Saints were one of the top five teams in the league in roughing the passer penalties. In 2009 and 2011, the Saints were also in the top five teams in unnecessary roughness penalties; in 2010, the Saints ranked sixth in the category. In the January 16, 2010 divisional playoff game against the Arizona Cardinals, Saints defensive players were assessed $15,000 in fines for fouls committed against opposing players. The following week, in the NFC Championship Game against the Minnesota Vikings, Saints defensive players were assessed $30,000 in fines for four separate illegal hits, several of which were directed against quarterback Brett Favre.

5. Coach Williams now acknowledges that when he was first questioned about this matter in early 2010 he intentionally misled NFL investigators and made no effort to stop the program after he became aware of the league's investigation.

6. Coach Williams further confirmed that the program continued during the 2010 and 2011 seasons, and that he occasionally contributed funds to the pool in each of those seasons.

7. Assistant Head Coach/Defense Vitt acknowledged that he was aware of the program in 2009-2011. He admitted that, when interviewed in 2010, he "fabricated the truth" to NFL investigators and denied that any pay-for- performance or bounty program existed at the Saints.

8. Coach Vitt said one of his primary roles was to monitor the activity of coach Williams. This was based on the direction of coach Payton, who apparently had less than full confidence in coach Williams. Despite coach Vitt's knowledge of the bounty program, his understanding of the terms "knock- out" and "cart-off," his witnessing coach Williams handing out envelopes that he believed to contain cash, and his acknowledgement that the defensive meeting preceding the 2010 NFC Championship Game may have "got out of hand" with respect to Brett Favre, coach Vitt claimed he never advised either coach Payton or general manager Loomis of the "pay-for-performance/bounty" program.

9. A summary prepared following a Saints preseason game included the statement, "1 Cart-off - Crank up the John Deer (sic) Tractor" in reference to a hit on an opposing player. Similar statements are reflected in prepared documents or slides in connection with other games in multiple seasons. A review of the game films confirms that opposing players were injured on the plays identified in the documents.

10. When interviewed in 2012, Payton claimed to be entirely unaware of the program, a claim contradicted by others. Further, prior to the Saints� opening game in 2011, coach Payton received an email from a close associate that stated in part, "PS Greg Williams put me down for $5000 on Rogers (sic)." When shown the email during the course of the investigation, coach Payton stated that it referred to a "bounty" on Green Bay quarterback Aaron Rodgers.

11. In early 2010, Mr. Loomis advised coach Payton that the league office was investigating allegations concerning a bounty program. Coach Payton said that he met with his top two defensive assistants, coach Williams and coach Vitt, in advance of the interview with league investigators and told them, "Let's make sure our ducks are in a row." Remarkably, coach Payton claimed that he never inquired of coach Williams and coach Vitt as to what happened in the interviews, never asked them if a "pay-for-performance" or bounty program was in fact in place, and never gave any instructions to discontinue such a program.

12. In January 2012, prior to the Saints' first playoff game of the 2011 season, coach Payton was advised by Mr. Loomis that the league office had reopened the investigation. coach Payton made a cursory inquiry but took no action to ensure that any bounty program was discontinued.

13. Loomis was not present at meetings of the Saints defense at which bounties were discussed and was not aware of bounties being placed on specific players. Mr. Loomis became aware of the allegations regarding a bounty program no later than February 2010 when he was notified of the investigation into the allegations during a meeting with NFL Executive Vice President-Football Operations Ray Anderson. He was directed to ensure that any such program ceased immediately. By his own admission, Mr. Loomis did not do enough to determine if a pay-for-performance/bounty program existed or to end any such program that did exist.

14. Saints owner Tom Benson notified Mr. Loomis in January 2012 prior to the team's participation in the playoffs that the league's investigation had been reopened. Mr. Benson reiterated his position that a bounty program was unacceptable and instructed Mr. Loomis to ensure that if a bounty program existed at the Saints it would stop immediately. By his own admission, Mr. Loomis responded to this direction by making only cursory inquiries of Coaches Payton and Williams. He never issued instructions to end the bounty program to either the coaching staff or the players.

15. There is no evidence that Saints ownership had any knowledge of the pay- for-performance or bounty program. There is no evidence that any club funds were used for the program. Ownership made clear that it disapproved of the program, gave prompt and clear direction that it stop, and gave full and immediate cooperation to league investigators.

Read more: http://bigshow.iheart.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=104670&article=9929997#ixzz1prFB36Ku


I'm no Vikings fan, but I think that without this program they don't win that NFC championship game. This clearly factored into the multiple brutal hits Favre and AP took in that game. Screw them, I'll never root for the Saints to win anything ever again. Their 2010 Super Bowl* win will now have an asterisk by it. I hope Brees holds out for a trade too cause he's too good for that organization.

Ole Miss Texan
03-22-2012, 12:12 PM
The NFL's statement on the evidence against the team.

I'm no Vikings fan, but I think that without this program they don't win that NFC championship game. This clearly factored into the multiple brutal hits Favre and AP took in that game. Screw them, I'll never root for the Saints to win anything ever again. Their 2010 Super Bowl* win will now have an asterisk by it. I hope Brees holds out for a trade too cause he's too good for that organization.

Whoa, nice find. Much more damaging than I first though in regard to Peyton. I have a feeling Benson isn't too pleased. Payton and GM Loomis likely out of a job for good with the Saints. Went directly against ownership and f*cked the franchise.

Playoffs
03-22-2012, 12:20 PM
I'm really taken aback by Payton's brazen, bold-faced lies and defiance of NFL directives. Just wow.

Texaninlild
03-22-2012, 12:24 PM
I heard he might get the chair-:scarygirl:

Porky
03-22-2012, 12:25 PM
Coach Vitt said one of his primary roles was to monitor the activity of coach Williams. This was based on the direction of coach Payton, who apparently had less than full confidence in coach Williams.

Interesting. If he didn't have confidence in him, why was he his DC? I take it Payton won't be on Williams' Christmas card list this year. :mariopalm:

Double Barrel
03-22-2012, 01:03 PM
wow...after reading the NFL's statement...yikes! :eek:

Dutchrudder
03-22-2012, 02:00 PM
I hope everyone reads that statement. That's from the NFL, not some blogger or former coach/player and it's not an opinion piece. It's akin to a grand jury investigation report's findings, but from NFL investigators. I would imagine most of the people supporting the Saints on this issue don't have any idea how much the entire organization tried to cover this up. I would be absolutely appalled if the Texans were found to be doing the same kind of stuff, and I don't know that I would even follow the team any more in that situation. I can tell you for damn sure I'd want the Head Coach and all the cronies involved to be sacked. Super Bowl winner or not, this is the sort of thing that does irreparable harm to the team's brand and image.

And like I said earlier, I really do hope Drew Brees sees what happened here, who he's working with and asks for a one-way trip out of NO. He's an incredible person off the field, does more charity work than anyone in the league I know of, and doesn't deserve to be brought down by a bunch of shady cheaters.

Thorn
03-22-2012, 02:10 PM
The Saints screwed this one up, that's for sure. I'm sure the repercussions from this aren't even close to being over. As well they shouldn't be.

I feel bad for the Saints fans on this one.

Double Barrel
03-22-2012, 02:41 PM
I hope everyone reads that statement. That's from the NFL, not some blogger or former coach/player and it's not an opinion piece. It's akin to a grand jury investigation report's findings, but from NFL investigators. I would imagine most of the people supporting the Saints on this issue don't have any idea how much the entire organization tried to cover this up. I would be absolutely appalled if the Texans were found to be doing the same kind of stuff, and I don't know that I would even follow the team any more in that situation. I can tell you for damn sure I'd want the Head Coach and all the cronies involved to be sacked. Super Bowl winner or not, this is the sort of thing that does irreparable harm to the team's brand and image.

And like I said earlier, I really do hope Drew Brees sees what happened here, who he's working with and asks for a one-way trip out of NO. He's an incredible person off the field, does more charity work than anyone in the league I know of, and doesn't deserve to be brought down by a bunch of shady cheaters.

yep, it's always the cover up and blatant lies that really gets people into trouble.

I do not condone the bounty system and now that I've read more about it, I find it extremely distasteful and very unsportsmanlike. I guess I did not understand the extent of it all until reading more about it.

But the dishonorable actions by the head coach and GM during the investigation is what really caused the penalties to be so severe.

majestrate
03-22-2012, 02:55 PM
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7722853/new-orleans-saints-senator-dick-durbin-sets-hearing-bounties-nfl

The assistant Senate majority leader, an Illinois Democrat, says he wants to examine whether federal law should make such bounty systems a crime

Because one of the most important things going on right now, something that definitely needs government attention, is a bounty program within the NFL.

FFS. I hate politics and politicians, and this kind of crap is exactly why. Republicans and Democrats alike.

Marcus
03-22-2012, 02:58 PM
For the NFL to have so much detailed info about what the Saints were doing the past 3 years, indicates either they were all being recorded on tape, or the league had someone "working" for them on the inside.

Then, I find this (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-cole_jeremy_shockey_warren_sapp_bounty_snitch_0321 12). They are already pics on the web of his jersey being burned in the French Quarter.

welsh texan
03-22-2012, 03:14 PM
Is there any bigger ******* than Warren Sapp? Maybe Jamie Dukes. But still, what a total moron he is, hopefully he loses his job over this so we don't have to listen to him anymore.:evil:

Corrosion
03-22-2012, 03:21 PM
The Saints screwed this one up, that's for sure. I'm sure the repercussions from this aren't even close to being over. As well they shouldn't be.

I feel bad for the Saints fans on this one.

I dont , nothing more annoying than a Aints fan post Superbowl. Too bad the Czar didnt strip them of that trophy.

I said it before and I'm gonna say it again - Everyone who participated in this from the coaches to the players should be banned from the league for life.

The game of football is physical and dangerous enough without players intentionally attempting to injure others.


Have to wonder if Payton or Williams ever get another gig in the NFL after this. What owner or GM in their right mind could sign off on their hiring?

As for those players involved , you have to wonder if other players might retaliate ....


Reap what you sow ..... :goodluck:

Thorn
03-22-2012, 03:22 PM
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7722853/new-orleans-saints-senator-dick-durbin-sets-hearing-bounties-nfl



Because one of the most important things going on right now, something that definitely needs government attention, is a bounty program within the NFL.

FFS. I hate politics and politicians, and this kind of crap is exactly why. Republicans and Democrats alike.

Yep. Have some rep.

majestrate
03-22-2012, 03:29 PM
Have to wonder if Payton or Williams ever get another gig in the NFL after this. What owner or GM in their right mind could sign off on their hiring?
Really? I'm wondering how quickly next year Payton will be approached for a job.

He has a SB win, to owners that haven't tasted success in a while, this is a huge deal.

Corrosion
03-22-2012, 03:42 PM
Really? I'm wondering how quickly next year Payton will be approached for a job.

He has a SB win, to owners that haven't tasted success in a while, this is a huge deal.

He also knowingly and willingly violated many NFL rules which seriously cost his team both money and draft picks .... along with a heaping helping of negative press.


I wouldnt hire him.

Playoffs
03-22-2012, 03:44 PM
Then, I find this (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-cole_jeremy_shockey_warren_sapp_bounty_snitch_0321 12). They are already pics on the web of his jersey being burned in the French Quarter.Dumb prison/gang talk about "snitches." NFL needs to question Sapp and discipline those trying intimidation tactics. Pretty sure that's against the law.

No "snitch" told Payton to lie & lie to NFL and ignore their rules and direct warnings. I like Sapp, but he's wrong here.

majestrate
03-22-2012, 03:50 PM
Michael Vick. Donte Stallworth. Adam Jones. Ben Roethlisberger. Plaxico Burress.

Just a couple of names. We all know there are many more.

With the exception of Michael Vick, and possibly Ben Roethlisberger, the negative impact to the team was minimal. But my point is that there will always be an owner in the NFL that will hire someone else that they believe can bring wins to their team. Even if that person is no longer Al Davis :P

And no, I'm not trying to compare what they did (non-football related incidents) to what Payton did. I'm just saying that some owners will take risks on "tainted" personnel, if they think it'll help their club more than it will hurt it.

Dutchrudder
03-22-2012, 03:56 PM
He also knowingly and willingly violated many NFL rules which seriously cost his team both money and draft picks .... along with a heaping helping of negative press.


I wouldnt hire him.

I'm sure Bob McNair wouldn't hire him either, but I know there are owners that would. I imagine the Jets and Rex Ryan would love to have Payton as an OC, or any struggling team for that matter. There is always movement in the NFL, someone is bound to take a chance on Payton. Considering this bounty thing was on the defensive side of the ball, if you made him an OC, there would be little chance of an issue like this arising again.

Of course that is only if he gets fired. I seriously doubt he will be fired, but you never know.

Double Barrel
03-22-2012, 03:59 PM
Dumb prison/gang talk about "snitches." NFL needs to question Sapp and discipline those trying intimidation tactics. Pretty sure that's against the law.

No "snitch" told Payton to lie & lie to NFL and ignore their rules and direct warnings. I like Sapp, but he's wrong here.

Yeah, one of the local radio hosts was babbling about "the hood" and snitching last night on his radio show. Like it is some kind of high crime to report felonies or corruption because it breaks some kind of "street code". What a friggin' chump. :smiliepalm:

Ole Miss Texan
03-22-2012, 04:19 PM
I hope everyone reads that statement. That's from the NFL, not some blogger or former coach/player and it's not an opinion piece. It's akin to a grand jury investigation report's findings, but from NFL investigators. I would imagine most of the people supporting the Saints on this issue don't have any idea how much the entire organization tried to cover this up. I would be absolutely appalled if the Texans were found to be doing the same kind of stuff, and I don't know that I would even follow the team any more in that situation. I can tell you for damn sure I'd want the Head Coach and all the cronies involved to be sacked. Super Bowl winner or not, this is the sort of thing that does irreparable harm to the team's brand and image.

And like I said earlier, I really do hope Drew Brees sees what happened here, who he's working with and asks for a one-way trip out of NO. He's an incredible person off the field, does more charity work than anyone in the league I know of, and doesn't deserve to be brought down by a bunch of shady cheaters.
Absolutely. I wonder what Brees is thinking after he's learned about the extent of everything. I wonder if he's starting to question his signing a longterm contract with the Saints now. Play out the season on the franchise tag and then be a FA next offseason.

We'll see how Schaub comes back from his lisfranc injury and performs in his contract season. I love me some Schaub but if he's not good to go I would be very very supportive of trying to get Brees here. We've been clearing cap room for next season. If we come out of it with Drew Brees and Duane Brown locked up on longterm contracts - hoooweee!!

kingh99
03-22-2012, 08:39 PM
My creep meter pegged on Peyton and Williams. Seemed really sketchy to me. And it ends up they were not just skirting but skipping over the line. I don't think either will ever coach again in the NFL. Fisher's another one I wonder about.

majestrate
03-23-2012, 10:51 AM
I still don't understand why anyone thinks Payton isn't going to get a job somewhere.

Tom Cable punched one of his assistant coaches, and he still has a job. Doesn't he have a history of beating women? What kind of negative publicity is that? And he exposes the club to lawsuits. Yet, he gets hired. Is he a head coach? No. Does that mean he never will be? No.

The only way Payton will never get another job in the NFL is if he is banned from the game. Winning > Negative publicity

Ole Miss Texan
03-23-2012, 10:55 AM
I still don't understand why anyone thinks Payton isn't going to get a job somewhere.

Tom Cable punched one of his assistant coaches, and he still has a job. Doesn't he have a history of beating women? What kind of negative publicity is that? And he exposes the club to lawsuits. Yet, he gets hired. Is he a head coach? No. Does that mean he never will be? No.

The only way Payton will never get another job in the NFL is if he is banned from the game. Winning > Negative publicity

Time cures all.

Signed,
Michael Vick

Payton will be alright after a year off. I see the Saints letting him go, he catches on as an OC for some team in 2013 and then moves up to HC. That is IF he doesn't get a HC gig right out of the gate.

GP
03-23-2012, 11:25 AM
He'll get fired. No way the owner will want an entire season filled with nothing but talk about it. Yes, it will be an ongoing topic...but the way the owner moves on, even if it's only a subtle "move on," is to fire him and install a HC NOW.

By firing him and installing a new HC you can shape the discussion that will be had on the topic. You can be seen as being proactive and starting anew. There will be less "negative" analysis and more "Oh, good for them. They're moving in a NEW direction."

I cannot foresee the Saints operating in an entire football year without their HC. Talk about a shaming punishment. THAT is how you shame a team right there.

The players and the fans deserve to move on, and you do that by parting with the "things" that need to be parted with. I suspect the league leveled the punishment in anticipation that the Saints would be pressured enough by it to fire Payton and maybe even Loomis. Leveraging tactic.

It would actually shock me more if they kept Payton and Loomis and anybody else. I am sure the lawyers are drawing up all the language and protocol as we speak. They can easily justify their firings, and maybe even not have to pay them one more dime on the remainder of their contracts for the financial loss they can claim they have caused the franchise with those shady practices. Lawyers can do wonders with the "harm" angle. In this instance, I think it's justifiable and correct.

Lucky
03-25-2012, 12:35 PM
He'll get fired.
Payton might get fired. But, not anytime soon. And not this year.

What you are failing to consider is that by Payton and Loomis proclaiming responsibility, they are removing any possible guilt from the owner. As far as Goodell knows, Benson knows nothing. Even if he actually does. Fire Payton and/or Loomis and they might be singing a different tune.

badboy
03-25-2012, 02:29 PM
Good, Loomis should have been given the same one year suspension as well. 500K isn't big enough to me either.Exactly! Headhunting & trying to put players out of games or careers should be worth jail time imo. Probably only time I'd agree with congressional investigation.

GP
03-25-2012, 03:51 PM
Payton might get fired. But, not anytime soon. And not this year.

What you are failing to consider is that by Payton and Loomis proclaiming responsibility, they are removing any possible guilt from the owner. As far as Goodell knows, Benson knows nothing. Even if he actually does. Fire Payton and/or Loomis and they might be singing a different tune.

That's a pretty damn good point.

Wolf
03-25-2012, 04:08 PM
Suspended New Orleans Saints head coach Sean Payton will have a lot of free time in the upcoming season -- he's out of the game for the entire 2011 campaign, and he's $5.8 million lighter in the pocket after Roger Goodell told him that he was not needed this year as a result of BountyGate. Fox Sports would like to fill Payton's Sundays by making an analyst for the network's NFL broadcasts.

"Our feeling about Sean is that he's bright, articulate and obviously contemporary," said Lou D'Ermilio, FOX's senior vice president for communications in a statement. "Any network with NFL rights would have to consider it."

While the league can prevent Payton from finding gainful employment in a coaching or administrative position until his one-year suspension is done, there's no mandate to keep him out of the booth.

"He is suspended from the NFL for the season," the league said in a statement to The New York Times. "His involvement in any non-NFL employment or business matters is not our decision.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/deep-posts-sean-payton-fox-144605051.html

Showtime100
03-25-2012, 05:29 PM
Payton might get fired. But, not anytime soon. And not this year.

What you are failing to consider is that by Payton and Loomis proclaiming responsibility, they are removing any possible guilt from the owner. As far as Goodell knows, Benson knows nothing. Even if he actually does. Fire Payton and/or Loomis and they might be singing a different tune.

The story as I last heard, and it might be different now, is that Benson heard what was up and told Gregg to cut it out post-haste and Gregg said he would.

It doesn't mean he didn't come to accept it later, though. I don't know if I would believe anyone from the Saints FO at this point.

Corrosion
03-26-2012, 01:29 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/deep-posts-sean-payton-fox-144605051.html

Stupid media ..... I hate them. :texanbill:


I wouldnt hire that guy to wash sh!tty diapers.

TheMatrix31
03-26-2012, 07:57 AM
Love seeing Saints fans in a tailspin. Screw 'em.

Playoffs
03-26-2012, 03:18 PM
Sean Payton, Bill Parcells talk role (http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=7738693&wjb)
Chris Mortensen
ESPN
March 26, 2012

While seeking the counsel of his former boss and mentor, Bill Parcells, New Orleans Saints coach Sean Payton has broached the idea of Parcells becoming the interim head coach during Payton's suspension for the 2012 season, according to several league sources.

Payton and Parcells have spoken numerous times, sources said, since NFL commissioner Roger Goodell announced last Wednesday that the Saints coach was being suspended for the year because the league found that the team had engaged in a bounty program that included incentives to injure opposing players.

Payton is contemplating an appeal of his stiff sentence, sources said. His suspension begins April 1 and will end after the Super Bowl.

Payton's agent said Monday "no decisions have been made about an appeal..."

read more: http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=7738693&wjb

GP
03-27-2012, 12:13 PM
Did I miss something? Did Sean Payton become the owner of the Saints sometime in the past year or two? How is it that SEAN PAYTON, not the owner, is having conversations with Bill Parcells about coaching the Saints in Payton's absence??????

From the article in the previous post:

It is uncertain whether Payton has discussed Parcells' candidacy as an interim head coach with Saints owner Tom Benson or general manager Mickey Loomis, who was handed an eight-game suspension.

LOL. I guess since he's still technically the Saints' head coach, Sean Payton can pick his interim HC?

If I were Tom Benson, I'd have me and my front office (with Loomis and Payton uninvolved, btw) picking the interim HC. I would distance myself from Sean Payton. The last thing you want is your HC for 2012 on the sideline of games and the announcers/telecast commentators saying "There's _______, the interim head coach who was selected by Sean Payton to coach this season."

Sometimes I wonder if any of these teams even have a Public Relations department.

Playoffs
03-27-2012, 12:27 PM
Did I miss something? Did Sean Payton become the owner of the Saints sometime in the past year or two? How is it that SEAN PAYTON, not the owner, is having conversations with Bill Parcells about coaching the Saints in Payton's absence??????Methinks it's because Benson is http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x107/supremelurker/drunk.gif

GP
03-27-2012, 01:22 PM
Methinks it's because Benson is http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x107/supremelurker/drunk.gif

LMAO!

Brilliant.

Says I must spread rep before giving it to you again.

steelbtexan
03-27-2012, 01:28 PM
Did I miss something? Did Sean Payton become the owner of the Saints sometime in the past year or two? How is it that SEAN PAYTON, not the owner, is having conversations with Bill Parcells about coaching the Saints in Payton's absence??????

From the article in the previous post:



LOL. I guess since he's still technically the Saints' head coach, Sean Payton can pick his interim HC?

If I were Tom Benson, I'd have me and my front office (with Loomis and Payton uninvolved, btw) picking the interim HC. I would distance myself from Sean Payton. The last thing you want is your HC for 2012 on the sideline of games and the announcers/telecast commentators saying "There's _______, the interim head coach who was selected by Sean Payton to coach this season."

Sometimes I wonder if any of these teams even have a Public Relations department.

I would hire the HC that gave me the best chance to win a SB. Parcells would be at the top of my list.

I want my FO to give me the best chance to win and PR shouldn't be a part of the thought process. It appears as though Benson puts winning above PR. As it should be for all of the teams in the NFL.

I wish our home team didn't put PR 1st before winning.

Vinny
03-27-2012, 01:53 PM
Did I miss something? Did Sean Payton become the owner of the Saints sometime in the past year or two? How is it that SEAN PAYTON, not the owner, is having conversations with Bill Parcells about coaching the Saints in Payton's absence??????

From the article in the previous post:



LOL. I guess since he's still technically the Saints' head coach, Sean Payton can pick his interim HC?

If I were Tom Benson, I'd have me and my front office (with Loomis and Payton uninvolved, btw) picking the interim HC. I would distance myself from Sean Payton. The last thing you want is your HC for 2012 on the sideline of games and the announcers/telecast commentators saying "There's _______, the interim head coach who was selected by Sean Payton to coach this season."

Sometimes I wonder if any of these teams even have a Public Relations department.Payton comes from the Parcells system so I'd bet Bill Parcells wouldn't have to come in and learn the language...Benson doesn't have that kind of a connection to Parcells. I'm sure Payton asked Benson if he could talk to his friend about being an interim and I'd bet he said go for it. I don't see how that is so weird.

GP
03-27-2012, 02:14 PM
Payton comes from the Parcells system so I'd bet Bill Parcells wouldn't have to come in and learn the language...Benson doesn't have that kind of a connection to Parcells. I'm sure Payton asked Benson if he could talk to his friend about being an interim and I'd bet he said go for it. I don't see how that is so weird.

It's weird in the sense that as an owner in Benson's position, a compromised position to say the least, the owner needs to be wayyyyyy out in front of this deal and not allowing his suspended head coach to be getting the air time he's getting. Especially in the sense of him picking his guy to replace him.

Standard P.R. practice, well....except for the Saints.

If this had been with the Texans, no way in hell would McNair be letting Sean Payton go anywhere near this decision-making territory. Benson has balls, or is ignorant of public sentiment/scrutiny, or both. My bet is on "both."

Vinny
03-27-2012, 02:28 PM
It's weird in the sense that as an owner in Benson's position, a compromised position to say the least, the owner needs to be wayyyyyy out in front of this deal and not allowing his suspended head coach to be getting the air time he's getting. Especially in the sense of him picking his guy to replace him.

Standard P.R. practice, well....except for the Saints.

If this had been with the Texans, no way in hell would McNair be letting Sean Payton go anywhere near this decision-making territory. Benson has balls, or is ignorant of public sentiment/scrutiny, or both. My bet is on "both."
you always make things soap opera quality....er, kudos to that?

I donno, Payton is generally not seen as an evildooer nor does anyone think that he was the driving force behind all this stuff but was punished for covering it up mostly. I don't think Payton taints anything and why wouldn't you want to bring in a guy who taught Payton much of the system he runs himself? That would likely give you a better shot at staying competitive than otherwise. When I read your stuff sometimes I think it comes across as something Boss Hogg and his sidekick Rosco P. Coltrane would post. :)

I find that reading your posts in Boss Hogg voice helps.

GP
03-27-2012, 02:49 PM
you always make things soap opera quality....er, kudos to that?

I donno, Payton is generally not seen as an evildooer nor does anyone think that he was the driving force behind all this stuff but was punished for covering it up mostly. I don't think Payton taints anything and why wouldn't you want to bring in a guy who taught Payton much of the system he runs himself? That would likely give you a better shot at staying competitive than otherwise. When I read your stuff sometimes I think it comes across as something Boss Hogg and his sidekick Rosco P. Coltrane would post. :)

I find that reading your posts in Boss Hogg voice helps.

Awww, that's so nice of you to say that to me. Very becoming of a respected member of a board whose policy is to not name-call and deride a poster. Way to go, Vinny! Keep up the good fight.

Based on your posts, I'm not sure that you see the value in what people perceive anyways. So I can see why my posts are puzzling to you. (That's my little way of getting a "dig" in on you since you want to play that way. Isn't this fun?!? LOL).

Back to the topic: Perception is reality. Period. For better or for worse, the Texans have made it their goal to place their product into the minds of the public as being (a) Wholesome, (b) Quality-driven in terms of basic fan happiness, and (c) Committed to doing right things no matter the situation, i.e. Respecting a guy like Mario by not signing any of our other FAs while he was out getting his Mega Deal with the Bills.

If I am Joe Football Fan and I see that the guy who is suspended for a year, Payton, is choosing his successor for the year...I scratch my head and wonder why the owner isn't making that decision since the original HC, Payton, screwed up so badly in the first place and isn't supposed to be making football decisions...though Goodell is allowing him to since Payton will appeal the verdict.

It's as if Payton is wagging the dog there in Nawlins. That's my perception. Dude effed up and the owner needs to take over and be the man of his household...rather than letting Payton be a visible leader right now.

I always wanted to be Luke Duke, btw. So you really crushed my spirit, Vinny.

Vinny
03-27-2012, 02:57 PM
Awww, that's so nice of you to say that to me. Very becoming of a respected member of a board whose policy is to not name-call and deride a poster. Way to go, Vinny! Keep up the good fight.

Based on your posts, I'm not sure that you see the value in what people perceive anyways. So I can see why my posts are puzzling to you. (That's my little way of getting a "dig" in on you since you want to play that way. Isn't this fun?!? LOL).

I just think your posts are humorous. Likely unintentional humor, but humorous all the same.

Double Barrel
03-27-2012, 03:23 PM
If this had been with the Texans, no way in hell would McNair be letting Sean Payton go anywhere near this decision-making territory. Benson has balls, or is ignorant of public sentiment/scrutiny, or both. My bet is on "both."

Why would Bob McNair even want Sean Payton go anywhere near this decision-making territory? :um:

To be honest, man, I think there is a little wink/wink at owners meetings about this stuff. I really do not think owners are as indignant about these kinds of things as the public assumes.

Yeah, the commish has to put the hammer down, but only due to public relations and 'protecting the shield' and all that jazz. The reality is that bounty programs have been in the NFL for a long time, and it is only somewhat recent that politically correctness has permeated the marketing of the sport to a wider audience.

Payton is picking his replacement coach because his owner and front office want him to pick his replacement coach. Occam's razor.

Dutchrudder
03-27-2012, 03:57 PM
Payton is picking his interim coach because his owner and front office want him to pick his future replacement coach. Occam's razor.

Fify.

Bill Parcells is no threat to taking Payton's job. Bill Cowher, Jon Gruden and Spagnuolo that are. Payton just needs a guy who can keep the seat warm for him, and Parcells is perfect for that. He's well respected, knows the system, and is too old to do this long term. Excellent move by the brilliant Mr. Payton.

Double Barrel
03-27-2012, 05:07 PM
Fify.

Bill Parcells is no threat to taking Payton's job. Bill Cowher, Jon Gruden and Spagnuolo that are. Payton just needs a guy who can keep the seat warm for him, and Parcells is perfect for that. He's well respected, knows the system, and is too old to do this long term. Excellent move by the brilliant Mr. Payton.

'eh, I honestly do not think Benson has any intention of losing Sean Payton. He's a savior of sorts in that town, and this story barely event dents the goodwill he has built up in the fanbase.

I've got about a dozen friends who are Saints fans, and none of them think ill of Payton. Almost all entertain a conspiracy by the league against New Orleans, in spite of the regular visits to their city by the Super Bowl.

I think if Benson wanted Cowher, Gruden, etc., he would take this opportunity to fire Payton and hire one of them. What we are seeing is the exact opposite. They are handing the reigns of the franchise to a soon-to-be exiled head coach.

Texans_Chick
03-28-2012, 08:12 PM
I have a different point of view on this situation:

Why the New Orleans Saints Bounty Penalties are Too Harsh (http://www.houstoncriminallaw.com/Criminal-Defense-Blog/2012/March/Why-the-New-Orleans-Saints-bounty-penalties-are-.aspx)

Before you react to the headline, I'd ask you to read the reasoning. I'm not sure it persuades anybody to anything--I think the bounty punishment thing is something that people react one way or another to, and get locked into their point of view. Like many things in life.

Sean Payton can't talk much publicly. As it is, Peter King noted on Twitter that the NFL was not happy he briefly talked to the media at the owners meeting. In some of the few words he said, he said that he did not believe he lied to Goodell at their two meetings.

It is quite possible that both Goodell and Payton honestly believe their points of view. That is the difficult thing about investigations. People remember things differently. People perceive others actions differently. And nobody has a detector that can discover what is truly in someone's heart.

Texan_Bill
03-28-2012, 08:31 PM
Love seeing Saints fans in a tailspin. Screw 'em.

I disagree with that sentiment, for this reason:

I went to New Orleans for a Texans game and other then the obligatory drunk dick, most fans were cool.. That said, I give a damn about the rats ass with regards to the Saints organization.

Texans_Chick
03-29-2012, 09:55 PM
I disagree with that sentiment, for this reason:

I went to New Orleans for a Texans game and other then the obligatory drunk dick, most fans were cool.. That said, I give a damn about the rats ass with regards to the Saints organization.

I disagree with that sentiment because if Goodell can use the nuclear option against the Saints with fans in the crossfire, he can use it against any team.

Corrosion
03-29-2012, 11:43 PM
I disagree with that sentiment because if Goodell can use the nuclear option against the Saints with fans in the crossfire, he can use it against any team.

I dont consider what the Saints got to be such a nuclear option , in fact I think they got off light.

They broke the rule of sportsmanship. The things we try to instill in our kids from sports at an early age. Its not whether you win or lose , its how you play the game .... Win or lose with dignity & grace.

Yes , you play to win the game .... but you go about it in the right way.

Maybe I expect too much from people .... I cant stand a cheater or a liar.

I guess they are a pretty good example of our society as a whole today tho , winning is all that matters , no matter the cost.


For what its worth , I wouldnt think it too harsh for every coach and player who was involved to be banned for life.

Dutchrudder
03-29-2012, 11:56 PM
I disagree with that sentiment because if Goodell can use the nuclear option against the Saints with fans in the crossfire, he can use it against any team.

Why do the fans matter? They aren't involved in the equation at all, but are more like bystanders. The team hired people who did bad things, the team suffers for the bad things that their employees did. They ignored warnings from the commish several times, the commish was within his rights under the new CBA to assess the punishments given. Every punishment is legal within the CBA, the argument is merely subjective towards the commish's assessment. Whine and moan all you want about the extent of the punishment, but the owner signed off on the CBA and knew the capabilities given to the commish. Maybe next CBA they will revisit the powers bestowed upon him, but right now it's all sour grapes, just like the Cowboys/Redskins cap issues.

majestrate
03-30-2012, 10:25 AM
They broke the rule of sportsmanship. The things we try to instill in our kids from sports at an early age. Its not whether you win or lose , its how you play the game .... Win or lose with dignity & grace.

Yes , you play to win the game .... but you go about it in the right way.

Maybe I expect too much from people .... I cant stand a cheater or a liar.

I guess they are a pretty good example of our society as a whole today tho , winning is all that matters , no matter the cost.
Rep'd

SheTexan
03-30-2012, 06:11 PM
I dont consider what the Saints got to be such a nuclear option , in fact I think they got off light.

They broke the rule of sportsmanship. The things we try to instill in our kids from sports at an early age. Its not whether you win or lose , its how you play the game .... Win or lose with dignity & grace.

Yes , you play to win the game .... but you go about it in the right way.

Maybe I expect too much from people .... I cant stand a cheater or a liar.

I guess they are a pretty good example of our society as a whole today tho , winning is all that matters , no matter the cost.


For what its worth , I wouldnt think it too harsh for every coach and player who was involved to be banned for life.

rep"d!

Fans have to suck it up and take crap all the time! What makes Saints fans so special? The NFL is a BUSINESS, which is a term that has been used repeatedly this year, esp since Demeco's trade. A business makes rules and is EXPECTED to follow them. The Saints broke the rules in a major way, and Sean Payton was a major player in a horrendous scheme to deliberately injure players. He doesn't deserve to be in the NFL PERIOD!! JMO!!! The penalty is way to light! Using the "fans" as an excuse is just wrong..IMHO anyway!

ObsiWan
03-31-2012, 09:17 AM
My question is: If this is such a heinous "crime" and the NFL has been watching it and warning teams about this since at least 2007 (that's damn near five years) why now? Why did Goodell not start handing out suspensions in 2008 or 2009?? What other teams were on his "radar" and why haven't those teams/names been brought to light??

Let's be real. The severity of the punishment is not about the crime. The punishment was severe because Goodell thought he'd been lied to. It's about Goodell's ego plain & simple.

ArlingtonTexan
03-31-2012, 09:39 AM
My question is: If this is such a heinous "crime" and the NFL has been watching it and warning teams about this since at least 2007 (that's damn near five years) why now? Why did Goodell not start handing out suspensions in 2008 or 2009?? What other teams were on his "radar" and why haven't those teams/names been brought to light??

Let's be real. The severity of the punishment is not about the crime. The punishment was severe because Goodell thought he'd been lied to. It's about Goodell's ego plain & simple.

Of course, the bring lied to is adding to the penalty. Most of us know that from chlldhood and we even have the trite statement "the cover-up is worse than the crime." In this way, goddell is acting no different than most people do.

That said, the overall emphasis on player safety is not some grand humanitarian awakening by the NFL. The league is getting sued currently by former players and these will continue if the NFL does not show that it is trying to make the game "safe" as possible.

steelbtexan
03-31-2012, 11:55 AM
My question is: If this is such a heinous "crime" and the NFL has been watching it and warning teams about this since at least 2007 (that's damn near five years) why now? Why did Goodell not start handing out suspensions in 2008 or 2009?? What other teams were on his "radar" and why haven't those teams/names been brought to light??

Let's be real. The severity of the punishment is not about the crime. The punishment was severe because Goodell thought he'd been lied to. It's about Goodell's ego plain & simple.

Yep

The coverup is almost always worse than the crime.

For the record, If I were a Saints fan the punishment is well worth a Lombardi Trophy. Nobody got killed/career ended)

Goodell is ruining the game I love. Even though I agree with the punishment in this case.

Dutchrudder
03-31-2012, 04:06 PM
Yep

The coverup is almost always worse than the crime.

For the record, If I were a Saints fan the punishment is well worth a Lombardi Trophy. Nobody got killed/career ended)

Goodell is ruining the game I love. Even though I agree with the punishment in this case.

Kurt Warner and Brett Favre would beg to differ.

JPPT1974
03-31-2012, 09:08 PM
Well Parcells aka the Tuna might be coming to the Saints rescue. Would not be surprised if he did.

Thorn
04-01-2012, 10:24 AM
I heard (on NFLN) Sean Payton is appealing his suspension. I'd just as soon he got kicked out of the NFL permanently.

Malloy
04-01-2012, 10:28 AM
I heard (on NFLN) Sean Payton is appealing his suspension. I'd just as soon he got kicked out of the NFL permanently.

You're up early. Thirsty ? :)

SheTexan
04-01-2012, 10:38 AM
I heard (on NFLN) Sean Payton is appealing his suspension. I'd just as soon he got kicked out of the NFL permanently.

Must spread rep Thorn! I agree!! Won't happen, but, it should!

StarStruck
04-01-2012, 12:16 PM
I heard (on NFLN) Sean Payton is appealing his suspension. I'd just as soon he got kicked out of the NFL permanently.

I agree. Due to the nature of the sport, the risk for career ending injuries can occur during any practice or gameday. IMO, placing bounties to speed up the process should not be acceptable.

CloakNNNdagger
04-02-2012, 07:44 AM
Appeals may focus on disconnect between bounties, on-field actions (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/01/appeals-may-focus-on-disconnect-between-bounties-on-field-actions/)

QUOTE]The NFL’s internal dispute resolution system carries with it an added benefit, above and beyond the fact that the Commissioner gets to make the decision and then determine whether he made the right decision: The in-house appeal process keeps most of the arguments and facts out of the public eye.

In contrast to courtroom proceedings, which are subject to full public exposure, the only way we’ll know anything about anything that happens during the Saints’ bounty appeals is if someone leaks something.

Here’s a little something that has leaked in advance of the hearings.

According to a source with knowledge of the situation, the appeals may consist of arguments based on the fundamental difference between the placement of “bounties” on players and the actual infliction of injury. If, in other words, the offer of cash for a “cart-off” didn’t actually result in a player being carted off, the situation arguably becomes a case of intent without a crime.

Then there’s the possibility that, as it relates to the infliction of injuries, the bounty concept was more hyperbole than reality, with the promise of payments for knocking offensive players out of the game simply a device for getting the defensive players properly motivated to play with reckless abandon and appropriate zeal, different in form but no different in substance from the many other ways that teams get players fired up before games.

Also, one or more of the appeals could focus on the unexplored question of whether other teams did the same or similar things, and thus whether it’s objectively fair to nail the Saints simply because, more than two years after the league investigated the situation and got nowhere, a whistleblower blew the case open. Nailing the Saints for something that other teams quite possibly have been doing, but that the NFL hasn’t fully investigated, could be painted as inequitable.

Moreover, there’s an unwillingness to accept without scrutiny the work of NFL Security, which somehow was duped by the Saints in 2010, and which otherwise was unable to catch the Saints without the help of a whistleblower. The raw data generated by NFL Security undoubtedly will be studied and picked apart and, wherever justified, attacked as flawed.

In the end, it may not matter, given that the same office that imposed the penalties is reviewing them. At this point, any softening of the penalties will create the impression that the league has decided to tolerate bounties.

So while it may not be fair for the Saints to be the scapegoats, the league has little choice. And the league will undoubtedly justify the punishment based on the fact that the Saints lied about the existence of the bounty system in 2009 — and that the Saints continued to brazenly use bounties for two seasons after the league investigated the situation.[/QUOTE]

welsh texan
04-02-2012, 07:56 AM
Intent to commit a crime constitutes a crime in itself though no?

Playoffs
04-02-2012, 09:05 AM
Starting to sound like part of Saints motivation here is to discover/expose the "whistleblower".

Saints and NFL better be careful there...

Thorn
04-03-2012, 08:30 AM
Starting to sound like part of Saints motivation here is to discover/expose the "whistleblower".

Saints and NFL better be careful there...

My feelings is anyone, and that means ANYONE, who has participated in any program that has the intent to injure other players, should be out of the NFL for good.

Playing hard and hitting hard is one thing, we all like that. We also love the slow motion violence the NFL provides us during game coverage. That's just the way it is. But playing with the INTENT TO INJURE another player is just wrong, and should never be tolerated.

Never.

Dutchrudder
04-03-2012, 10:50 AM
My feelings is anyone, and that means ANYONE, who has participated in any program that has the intent to injure other players, should be out of the NFL for good.

Playing hard and hitting hard is one thing, we all like that. We also love the slow motion violence the NFL provides us during game coverage. That's just the way it is. But playing with the INTENT TO INJURE another player is just wrong, and should never be tolerated.

Never.

I agree that it is wrong, and that it shouldn't be tolerated, but I don't think the player should be banned from the league. What do you think AJ was trying to do here? Get a mosquito off Finnegan's ear?

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/Sports/johnson-finnegan.gif

They were obviously trying to injure each other, and I would have been fine with them getting suspended a couple games, but any more than that would be excessive. There are guys who go out there trying to hurt other players, it happens in a tough contact sport, but it's difficult to identify the intent to do so.

I think the coaches are much more culpable in this instance because it was a system designed and implemented by the DC. I don't think many of the players involved would have been attacking opposing players the way they did without this system and the direction of the coaches. The players are soldiers and are somewhat products of the team culture. Throw these same players into the mix at Houston, and they won't be playing the same way.

The HC and GM tacitly approved the system too, so that's why they deserve the fines and suspensions. Also, there is the whole lying to the commish thing. I'm sure that didn't help their cases.

Dutchrudder
04-03-2012, 10:51 AM
Starting to sound like part of Saints motivation here is to discover/expose the "whistleblower".

Saints and NFL better be careful there...

Yeah, I wouldn't put it past them to put a real bounty on that guy's head...

Thorn
04-03-2012, 11:12 AM
I agree that it is wrong, and that it shouldn't be tolerated, but I don't think the player should be banned from the league. What do you think AJ was trying to do here? Get a mosquito off Finnegan's ear?

Interesting point, one in which I wasn't thinking of when I made my post. But AJ and Finnegan was a spur of the moment fight in one game, not a long lasting conspiracy over multiple seasons to deliberately injure other players. I think an easily defined distinction can be made between the two cases.

Dutchrudder
04-03-2012, 12:30 PM
Interesting point, one in which I wasn't thinking of when I made my post. But AJ and Finnegan was a spur of the moment fight in one game, not a long lasting conspiracy over multiple seasons to deliberately injure other players. I think an easily defined distinction can be made between the two cases.

So basically don't try to hurt someone in the course of the play, instead throw haymakers and beat the guy in the head like a hockey fight? C'mon, this is the most obvious form of "intent to injure" you can find in the NFL. Heat of the moment and all that for sure, but we have the difference of a couple individuals losing their cool, and a bunch of coaches directing and paying players to make cheap hits on opponents to take them out of the game.

So is it the money incentives, the coach's direction, or the player's 'intent to injure' that is the defining factor? Because AJ/Finnegan fight meets only 1 of those criteria.

Showtime100
04-03-2012, 12:52 PM
Interesting point, one in which I wasn't thinking of when I made my post. But AJ and Finnegan was a spur of the moment fight in one game, not a long lasting conspiracy over multiple seasons to deliberately injure other players. I think an easily defined distinction can be made between the two cases.

So basically don't try to hurt someone in the course of the play, instead throw haymakers and beat the guy in the head like a hockey fight? C'mon, this is the most obvious form of "intent to injure" you can find in the NFL. Heat of the moment and all that for sure, but we have the difference of a couple individuals losing their cool, and a bunch of coaches directing and paying players to make cheap hits on opponents to take them out of the game.

So is it the money incentives, the coach's direction, or the player's 'intent to injure' that is the defining factor? Because AJ/Finnegan fight meets only 1 of those criteria.

I don't know about the "haymaker" comment but that's another thing.

That aside, aren't you two in agreement here in the big grand scheme of this thread's issue?

Dutchrudder
04-03-2012, 01:11 PM
I don't know about the "haymaker" comment but that's another thing.

That aside, aren't you two in agreement here in the big grand scheme of this thread's issue?

Banning all the players involved from the league forever? No, I think that's excessive. Suspensions and fines? Sure I'm in favor of that.

The distinction I'm leading up to is that the coaches created, enforced, supported and incentivized the program that led to these players to the 'intent to injure' opponents. We see 'intent to injure' in some plays whether it's the AJ/Finnegan fight, or any number of vicious hits from players that are look like they fit the profile. The NFL already fines and suspends players who do that, so I think that makes sense as many of those questionable hits were fined when they happened.

The problem to me is that coaches are supposed to be people that players look to for direction, people they want to play for, and use as mentors. Those guys breaking the rules, encouraging poor sportsmanship and showing a general lack of morality are the guys who really need to be punished. They are supposed to be upholding the league rules, which is why they are given the authority to fine their own players for stepping out of line. They have a much higher level of responsibility within the league than the guys taking orders on the field. That's where I draw the line with the ban vs suspension debate. I'm fine with any coach/GM they want to ban over this, but I have a hard time saying the players should get banned. The NFLPA would never let that happen anyways.

Showtime100
04-03-2012, 01:20 PM
Banning all the players involved from the league forever? No, I think that's excessive. Suspensions and fines? Sure I'm in favor of that.

The distinction I'm leading up to is that the coaches created, enforced, supported and incentivized the program that led to these players to the 'intent to injure' opponents. We see 'intent to injure' in some plays whether it's the AJ/Finnegan fight, or any number of vicious hits from players that are look like they fit the profile. The NFL already fines and suspends players who do that, so I think that makes sense as many of those questionable hits were fined when they happened.

The problem to me is that coaches are supposed to be people that players look to for direction, people they want to play for, and use as mentors. Those guys breaking the rules, encouraging poor sportsmanship and showing a general lack of morality are the guys who really need to be punished. They are supposed to be upholding the league rules, which is why they are given the authority to fine their own players for stepping out of line. They have a much higher level of responsibility within the league than the guys taking orders on the field. That's where I draw the line with the ban vs suspension debate. I'm fine with any coach/GM they want to ban over this, but I have a hard time saying the players should get banned. The NFLPA would never let that happen anyways.

Certainly, and I agree your post, especially with the bolded. A life sentence sounds a bit harsh. A year for Peyton is really all one should expect given the history of punishments in the NFL. More than a year, maybe even five years would work better, but that's me.

I can say I did like the "indefinite" part for Loomis. Question is, what will indefinite unltimately mean in this case?

GlassHalfFull
04-03-2012, 01:22 PM
So basically don't try to hurt someone in the course of the play, instead throw haymakers and beat the guy in the head like a hockey fight? C'mon, this is the most obvious form of "intent to injure" you can find in the NFL. Heat of the moment and all that for sure, but we have the difference of a couple individuals losing their cool, and a bunch of coaches directing and paying players to make cheap hits on opponents to take them out of the game.

So is it the money incentives, the coach's direction, or the player's 'intent to injure' that is the defining factor? Because AJ/Finnegan fight meets only 1 of those criteria.

Premeditation.

That is the difference. And it is recognized in our legal system as well.

welsh texan
04-03-2012, 01:25 PM
I kind of have sympathy for the players on this one, if your coach tells you to play a certain way then you've got to go out and do what your told.

In a league thats 'not for long', you do everything you can to impress your coaches and get them to keep giving you that next contract.

What is the difference, from the players side, in acting on an instruction to try to injure your opponent at every given opportunity, to acting on an instruction to back-pedal with a different technique?

The difference is on the coach, not the player. IMO

infantrycak
04-03-2012, 01:47 PM
So basically don't try to hurt someone in the course of the play, instead throw haymakers and beat the guy in the head like a hockey fight? C'mon, this is the most obvious form of "intent to injure" you can find in the NFL. Heat of the moment and all that for sure, but we have the difference of a couple individuals losing their cool, and a bunch of coaches directing and paying players to make cheap hits on opponents to take them out of the game.

So is it the money incentives, the coach's direction, or the player's 'intent to injure' that is the defining factor? Because AJ/Finnegan fight meets only 1 of those criteria.

Premeditation.

That is the difference. And it is recognized in our legal system as well.

Glass nailed it and Dutch partially answered his own question. Two huge differences - premeditation and the involvement of the coaching staff.

CloakNNNdagger
04-04-2012, 10:35 PM
Government seems to have to get their fingers in the pie.

From the Times-Picayune: Senate panel passes resolution asking NFL to reconsider sanctions on New Orleans Saints (http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2012/04/senate_panel_passes_resolution.html)

paycheck71
04-06-2012, 11:29 AM
Government seems to have to get their fingers in the pie.

From the Times-Picayune: Senate panel passes resolution asking NFL to reconsider sanctions on New Orleans Saints (http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2012/04/senate_panel_passes_resolution.html)

LA State Senate. Nobody is going to care. Politicians just trying to be fans. The King of my household (myself) has declared that these sanctions are appropriate. I think the difference in the power of those resolutions is minimal.

Thorn
04-06-2012, 04:02 PM
Why are there so many government officials that like to poke governmental fingers where they don't belong? :facepalm:

Malloy
04-07-2012, 12:16 PM
Premeditation.

That is the difference. And it is recognized in our legal system as well.

Bingo! That is IMO the difference in the two scenarios, and as you mention, it's also the way our legal systems sees it.

Malloy
04-07-2012, 12:18 PM
Why are there so many government officials that like to poke governmental fingers where they don't belong? :facepalm:

Hey, I like to poke my fingers where they don't belong, and I'm only working for the city!! :)

CloakNNNdagger
04-07-2012, 09:29 PM
Why are there so many government officials that like to poke governmental fingers where they don't belong? :facepalm:



http://coloradoright.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/monkey_fingers_in_ears.jpg


I'm a government official! And I can poke my fingers anywhere I want! And you can't stop me! La la la la la la la!

Playoffs
04-12-2012, 04:47 PM
http://www.neworleanssaints.com/news-and-events/article-1/Saints-Announce-that-Assistant-Head-CoachLinebackers-Coach-Joe-Vitt-to-Assume-Sean-Payton-Duties--/8ea64e0c-63bf-40ec-a22b-9c67cc3940b3

Saints Announce that Assistant Head Coach/Linebackers Coach Joe Vitt to Assume Sean Payton Duties


Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Saints' OL coach Aaron Kromer is expected to become New Orleans' interim HC during first six games, while Joe Vitt serves his suspension.

Texan_Bill
04-12-2012, 09:36 PM
Government seems to have to get their fingers in the pie.

From the Times-Picayune: Senate panel passes resolution asking NFL to reconsider sanctions on New Orleans Saints (http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2012/04/senate_panel_passes_resolution.html)

Hey Doc, Obviously you posted this a week ago, but I just now noticed it..


My first reaction is "REALLY"???? Our Government doesnt have more pressing issues? REALLYY???

As always, thanks for posting.

GP
04-12-2012, 10:38 PM
I kind of have sympathy for the players on this one, if your coach tells you to play a certain way then you've got to go out and do what your told.

Lots of Nazis in the Nuremburg Trials said the same thing: "We were just following orders. What else could we have done?" In fact, the whole country was an accessory to the crime(s).

Doing nothing can be a crime in of itself. In this instance, the players went along with the program. That's an endorsement of the policy. They're all grown men, not a hapless child.

I was thinking recently that there could have been a few moles that the NFL said, "Look, don't participate but keep us informed and you'll skate by with us when the charges get levied." So it's possible that some players did a little "something" that helped the greater good, but that's just my pet theory of the day. Mostly, however: The players are guilty in my eyes. Grown men know when something is wrong. If they didn't contact the league office or the NFLPA (and even get their attorney to document their efforts) then they deserve to be judged for their inaction. IMO.

Dutchrudder
04-13-2012, 11:57 AM
Hey Doc, Obviously you posted this a week ago, but I just now noticed it..


My first reaction is "REALLY"???? Our Government doesnt have more pressing issues? REALLYY???

As always, thanks for posting.

It was the Louisiana state Senate that passed that resolution, not Congress. No big surprise there, and it probably passed without debate.

Texan_Bill
04-23-2012, 04:11 PM
Saints calling the Mickey Loomis Espionage reports 1000% FALSE:

Saints call Espionage reports False (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/23/saints-call-espn-report-of-loomis-espionage-1000-percent-false/)

Uh-OH, this could be really, really bad.

Playoffs
04-24-2012, 08:56 PM
[Carolina's] Steve Smith revealed Tuesday that one Saints defender as well as former defensive boss Gregg Williams admitted to dirty tactics and trying to injure opposing players.

"I was going out of bounds, and the guy went for my ankle. I said, 'Hey, man, cut that out.' He's like, 'Well, we get fined if we don't go after your legs when you go out of bounds.'" said Smith. "And actually this past year, this last game when we played them, I had a little conversation with Gregg Williams. ... He took responsibility, he was saying it wasn't right, but that's who he was." From what has been discovered of Williams' philosophy, we have no reason to question the veracity of Smith's accusations. Apr 24 - 6:50 PM

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/1038/saints-defense

Texan_Bill
04-24-2012, 09:05 PM
[Carolina's] Steve Smith revealed Tuesday that one Saints defender as well as former defensive boss Gregg Williams admitted to dirty tactics and trying to injure opposing players.

"I was going out of bounds, and the guy went for my ankle. I said, 'Hey, man, cut that out.' He's like, 'Well, we get fined if we don't go after your legs when you go out of bounds.'" said Smith. "And actually this past year, this last game when we played them, I had a little conversation with Gregg Williams. ... He took responsibility, he was saying it wasn't right, but that's who he was." From what has been discovered of Williams' philosophy, we have no reason to question the veracity of Smith's accusations. Apr 24 - 6:50 PM

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/1038/saints-defense

Was it his inner or outer ankle? :kitten:

Corrosion
04-24-2012, 09:33 PM
I'll be seriously surprised if Williams ever coaches in any league again.


If he returns to the NFL , I'll send Roger Goodell a nasty letter. :strangle:

Playoffs
01-22-2013, 10:38 AM
NFL spokesman Greg Aiello announced Tuesday morning that NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell has reinstated Sean Payton from his suspension effective immediately.

Showtime100
01-22-2013, 10:46 AM
NFL spokesman Greg Aiello announced Tuesday morning that NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell has reinstated Sean Payton from his suspension effective immediately.

If I were him I'd still travel with a bodyguard or two while staying in New Orleans next week. :pinned:

As I saw in another thread, he should watch out for the big vagina float. :D