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View Full Version : Mike Wallace to the Texans Petition


redwhiteblue
03-18-2012, 09:38 PM
Who else would love to see the Texans give up their #26 pick and sign Mike Wallace from the Steelers?

EllisUnit
03-18-2012, 09:40 PM
as much as i would love to have mike wallace i just dont see the texans doing it. I see them drafting a WR. Him along with AJ on the same field would cause major problems for opoosing defenses for sure.

Dutchrudder
03-18-2012, 09:45 PM
Where are we going to get 8-10 million dollars to sign him? The dude isn't going to be taken away from the Steelers any time soon, they have the right to match the offer as well.

Trap_Star
03-18-2012, 09:45 PM
don't have the $$$ to sign him to a big enough deal that he would want.

redwhiteblue
03-18-2012, 09:45 PM
I just don't see a lot of options for the Texans at #26. I think Kevin Walter is going to start over anyone they could draft at that spot, and if the Texans go OLB or DT or offensive line at #26, they won't draft a receiver until the second round and they will probably be #4 on the depth chart behind Jacoby.

EllisUnit
03-18-2012, 09:46 PM
I just don't see a lot of options for the Texans at #26. I think Kevin Walter is going to start over anyone they could draft at that spot, and if the Texans go OLB or DT or offensive line at #26, they won't draft a receiver until the second round and they will probably be #4 on the depth chart behind Jacoby.

Arian was undrafted, i'm sure we will be fine ;)

redwhiteblue
03-18-2012, 09:47 PM
Kubiak wants his receivers to know the offensive an show great effort and blocking in the run game, and that is something jones and Walter do well. I think whoever gets drafted by the Texans is not going to see a lot of playing time the first year.

Fili
03-18-2012, 09:51 PM
Kubiak wants his receivers to know the offensive an show great effort and blocking in the run game, and that is something jones and Walter do well. I think whoever gets drafted by the Texans is not going to see a lot of playing time the first year.

Our system needs some experience to get used to. Wallace wouldn't be an automatic starter which would be just a waste of cap space. Better off with a rook for cap space reasons.

Rey
03-18-2012, 09:57 PM
Wallace would start from day 1.

Not sure what some of you are talking about.

I don't know the Texans cap space figures, but from everything I've heard/read it doesn't appear that this would be a move we could make...but I donno for sure

redwhiteblue
03-18-2012, 09:57 PM
Our system needs some experience to get used to. Wallace wouldn't be an automatic starter which would be just a waste of cap space. Better off with a rook for cap space reasons.

I think any veteran receiver with nfl experience would be an automatic starter, I just don't think a rookie out of college would.

Playoffs
03-18-2012, 10:00 PM
Cap room? :kubepalm:

gwallaia
03-18-2012, 10:02 PM
If not Mike Wallace, how about Morley Safer?

EVOLVIST
03-18-2012, 10:06 PM
Kubiak wants his receivers to know the offensive an show great effort and blocking in the run game, and that is something jones and Walter do well. I think whoever gets drafted by the Texans is not going to see a lot of playing time the first year.

I see where you're coming from, but as other members have said, Wallace will cost too much cheddar for the Texans right now. I mean, hell, they are not even going after Early Doucet. Ya know why?

Uncle Bob made it very clear that the Texans would not go after a FA WR. Instead, he said they would go after a WR in the draft. Bob also placed an emphasis on speed for said WR.

The more I think about it this leads me to believe three things:

1.) Contrary to what I wanted the Texans will take a WR in the 1st round if the guy they want is there.

2.) Because of this, whichever WR they draft they'll want to start right away (see every 1st rounder almost anyone has ever drafted).

3.) Bob's words eliminates several bigger names in the 1st round due to sub-par 40s - which is fine, because the quicker guys (at least by combine or pro day numbers) might just fall as low as #26.

In short, Bob's especially in the know about this year's draft, and he's made that clear. And although Uncle Bob is not one to generally force his will on his GM and coach, it sounds like to me they've already reach a quorum.

If Dale and Shane could die, then anything could happen with the Texans this year. Just as the mayans predicted.

GP
03-18-2012, 10:17 PM
If not Mike Wallace, how about Morley Safer?

I was thinking the same thing. That Morley Safer guy is the balls.

WolverineFan
03-18-2012, 10:31 PM
You gonna put up the $10-12 million its going to take to sign him?

whitewater
03-18-2012, 10:42 PM
Who else would love to see the Texans give up their #26 pick and sign Mike Wallace from the Steelers?
I would, that's who.

GP
03-18-2012, 10:49 PM
What is this place coming to???

Geez Louise.

Why would we pay Mike Wallace upwards of 8 or 9 or 10 million when we can draft and pay a rookie WR a paltry rookie salary for like, oh I don't know...four years?

We also have Lestar Jean for those with short memories. He was turning into a preseason sensation before getting hurt and I.R.'d. Him and Yates were clickin' like boneless chicken in the preseason.

Has boredom reduced us to this? Stay strong out there, guys. Meet back here tomorrow and run your thread ideas through me before posting them. I will help sort out the good ideas from the bad ideas.

Corrosion
03-18-2012, 10:58 PM
Cap room? :kubepalm:

This is Madden .... <//////////} a buncha cap room .... :wadepalm:

ObsiWan
03-19-2012, 01:06 AM
Who else would love to see the Texans give up their #26 pick and sign Mike Wallace from the Steelers?

In direct answer to your question:

Not me.

I'd rather have the draft pick. A first round WR pick would be less expensive (Wright would give us Wallace-type speed AND a kick returner). And if we don't go WR, we need a quality OL or OLB with that pick. Since this WR draft class if fairly deep, we could get a quality guy in the 2nd round.

Lastly, and I admit less important, I want that comp pick for giving up Mario. Signing Wallace - even if we had the cap room - may well negate that comp pick.

Allstar
03-19-2012, 01:09 AM
Cap room? :kubepalm:

This.

DocBar
03-19-2012, 04:22 AM
I might be in the minority here, but I'm as giddy as a school girl with the offseason moves. The only thing I really see to gripe about is they haven't cut Jones and re-signed Dreesen.
I'm interested in what our ufa receivers from last season look like this year.

Marcus
03-19-2012, 04:44 AM
What is this place coming to???

Geez Louise.

Why would we pay Mike Wallace upwards of 8 or 9 or 10 million when we can draft and pay a rookie WR a paltry rookie salary for like, oh I don't know...four years?

We also have Lestar Jean for those with short memories. He was turning into a preseason sensation before getting hurt and I.R.'d. Him and Yates were clickin' like boneless chicken in the preseason.

Has boredom reduced us to this? Stay strong out there, guys. Meet back here tomorrow and run your thread ideas through me before posting them. I will help sort out the good ideas from the bad ideas.

:spit:

Od damn GP, you made milk come out my nose on that one. Don't remember the last time I rep'd ya, but that was some funny **** right there, I don't care who you are.

redwhiteblue
03-19-2012, 06:53 AM
Why would we pay Mike Wallace upwards of 8 or 9 or 10 million when we can draft and pay a rookie WR a paltry rookie salary for like, oh I don't know...four years?

Because drafting a first round wide receiver is a crap shoot and there is no guarantee that they will be successful in the NFL.

We also have Lestar Jean for those with short memories. He was turning into a preseason sensation before getting hurt

"preseason sensation" and "before getting hurt" are two phrases that do not instill a lot of confidence in me.

DocBar
03-19-2012, 07:12 AM
Because drafting a first round wide receiver is a crap shoot and there is no guarantee that they will be successful in the NFL.



"preseason sensation" and "before getting hurt" are two phrases that do not instill a lot of confidence in me.Drafting a 1st round <insert position here> is a crap shoot. Hopefully, we draft BPA and it happens to be a position of need. There's no need for the Texans to go reaching, at any position, in this draft.

dsorc
03-19-2012, 07:36 AM
Lastly, and I admit less important, I want that comp pick for giving up Mario. Signing Wallace - even if we had the cap room - may well negate that comp pick.
Wallace would not count towards comp picks because he's a RFA. They're separate because otherwise teams would get 2 picks for one player. I still don't think we would sign Wallace simply because of the money. He'd be a clear improvement opposite Andre but we can't afford him.

DonnyMost
03-19-2012, 07:51 AM
http://knetbooksblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/monopoly-man-broke1.jpg

Texan_Bill
03-19-2012, 07:53 AM
Meet back here tomorrow and run your thread ideas through me before posting them. I will help sort out the good ideas from the bad ideas.

GP, I was contemplating starting a Mario Williams is a Bill thread.... Thoughts??


:fingergun:

Blake
03-19-2012, 07:54 AM
Yeah I just dont see it. The Texans are more interested in keeping Dreesen, Rackers, Dobbins, Bullman and possibly signing a Shawntae Spencer.

ckhouston
03-19-2012, 08:59 AM
No one. It would be a dumb move.

silvrhand
03-19-2012, 09:13 AM
Who else would love to see the Texans give up their #26 pick and sign Mike Wallace from the Steelers?

Schaub can't throw the ball far enough for Wallace lol.

Seegara
03-19-2012, 09:55 AM
What is this place coming to???

Geez Louise.

Why would we pay Mike Wallace upwards of 8 or 9 or 10 million when we can draft and pay a rookie WR a paltry rookie salary for like, oh I don't know...four years?

We also have Lestar Jean for those with short memories. He was turning into a preseason sensation before getting hurt and I.R.'d. Him and Yates were clickin' like boneless chicken in the preseason.

Has boredom reduced us to this? Stay strong out there, guys. Meet back here tomorrow and run your thread ideas through me before posting them. I will help sort out the good ideas from the bad ideas.
Ain't it the truth? The disparity in pay between draftees and veterans is, to say the least, unfortunate.

GP
03-19-2012, 10:03 AM
Because drafting a first round wide receiver is a crap shoot and there is no guarantee that they will be successful in the NFL.



"preseason sensation" and "before getting hurt" are two phrases that do not instill a lot of confidence in me.

Well, I know what we'd have in Mike Wallace...a WR who costs a helluva' lot of money every year AND hurts us on the cap.

Did you see the catches Lestar Jean was making in preseason? It was a acrobatic, twist around in the air, and stick to his hands like glue "stuff." He gets down the field, gets separation and makes catches. he is what Jacoby OUGHT to be right now...but isn't.

He was going to make the roster until he got hurt. That's why we had to sign Derrick Mason and Bryant Johnson toward the halfway part of the year. Had Jean been on the roster, he is WR4. With Jacoby in limbo, I think Jean could become WR3 easily. If he has the sort of camp and preseason like he did last year.

I'd rather draft and pay less than get into another Eric Moulds situation--Where we think we have a quality WR and he doesn't produce as planned. Outside of Kevin Walter, and it's a stretch to even throw Walter into the mix here, the Kubiak era has not been fortunate in signing quality Free Agent WRs.

If we have ANY money to spend, we go after our own guys first...then see what else we can do. And I bet it's not much.

Blake
03-19-2012, 10:06 AM
What is this place coming to???

Geez Louise.

Why would we pay Mike Wallace upwards of 8 or 9 or 10 million when we can draft and pay a rookie WR a paltry rookie salary for like, oh I don't know...four years?

We also have Lestar Jean for those with short memories. He was turning into a preseason sensation before getting hurt and I.R.'d. Him and Yates were clickin' like boneless chicken in the preseason.

Has boredom reduced us to this? Stay strong out there, guys. Meet back here tomorrow and run your thread ideas through me before posting them. I will help sort out the good ideas from the bad ideas.

Ain't it the truth? The disparity in pay between draftees and veterans is, to say the least, unfortunate.

Its not THAT crazy to fathom. While I dont think it is even an option (Cap wise), the help that a rookie WR can give us vs. the help Mike Wallace can give us is a HUGE disparity. How many rookie WR's come in their first season and tear the league up? 1 in 100?

If we didnt need a replacement for Mario, I would package picks this year and next to jump up and get Blackmon.

drunkcookie
03-19-2012, 10:10 AM
How many rookie WR's come in their first season and tear the league up? 1 in 100?



This offense doesn't need a rookie WR to come in and "tear it up", they just need any WR to come in and be a decent threat/good compliment to AJ...nothing amazing is needed...

GP
03-19-2012, 10:13 AM
GP, I was contemplating starting a Mario Williams is a Bill thread.... Thoughts??


:fingergun:

LOL. Yes, FANTASTIC IDEA!

As our furry little friend here is about to find out, sometimes you shouldn't contemplate what it would be like to act on an impulse:

http://amazingdata.com/mediadata6/Image/amazing_fun_featured_2447263830105101600S600x600Q8 5_200907231528011892.jpg

Blake
03-19-2012, 10:13 AM
This offense doesn't need a rookie WR to come in and "tear it up", they just need any WR to come in and be a decent threat/good compliment to AJ...nothing amazing is needed...

What does that mean to you? Can I get an example or 2 of this?

80tothezone
03-19-2012, 10:16 AM
I just don't see a lot of options for the Texans at #26. I think Kevin Walter is going to start over anyone they could draft at that spot, and if the Texans go OLB or DT or offensive line at #26, they won't draft a receiver until the second round and they will probably be #4 on the depth chart behind Jacoby.

what about lestar Jean? I think he is still on the team maybe he has put in the work and is rdy to step up?

80tothezone
03-19-2012, 10:17 AM
What does that mean to you? Can I get an example or 2 of this?

we need jj with hands.

drunkcookie
03-19-2012, 10:18 AM
What does that mean to you? Can I get an example or 2 of this?

Nothing specific, just a better option than what we had on the field in January... They don't need to be all-world...

drunkcookie
03-19-2012, 10:19 AM
what about lestar Jean? I think he is still on the team maybe he has put in the work and is rdy to step up?

That could be a guy they have great confidence in, and another reason (outside of cap room) they're not chompin' at the bit for a WR in FAgency...

80tothezone
03-19-2012, 10:25 AM
Its not THAT crazy to fathom. While I dont think it is even an option (Cap wise), the help that a rookie WR can give us vs. the help Mike Wallace can give us is a HUGE disparity. How many rookie WR's come in their first season and tear the league up? 1 in 100?

If we didnt need a replacement for Mario, I would package picks this year and next to jump up and get Blackmon.

do we really need a Mario replacement? I think we saw him last yr.... and we got Brahman and I think one other on the other side other than barwin. I mean with the exception of Ryans our lb's are young and we have plenty of them. I would say our needs in order are WR, Ol, Cb, and I haven't heard what we did with OD so maybe a Te. Other than that it's Bpa

Blake
03-19-2012, 10:28 AM
I am not comfortable going into 2012 with Reed, Barwin, Nading and Brahman.

I thought they should have signed on in FA, and drafted 2 OLB's in the first 2 rounds.

But holding money for Mario made that virtually impossible.

Blake
03-19-2012, 10:31 AM
4.105) Carolina Panthers - Timekiller - 6 HOUR CLOCK IS RUNNING

4.106) Buffalo Bills - Texan4Ever -

4.107) Seattle Seahawks - Ndevine7 -

4.108) Kansas City Chiefs - Honoring Earl 34 -

4.109) New York Jets - kiwitexansfan -

4.110) Washington Redskins - Aussie Texan -

GP
03-19-2012, 10:35 AM
What does that mean to you? Can I get an example or 2 of this?

1 example is Lestar Jean.

Yeah, I know...he's not a big name from a big-time team, but Lestar Jean is that type of home-grown talent that will be a good fit for our offense.

He runs routes the way a route should be ran, unlike Jacoby who is a sloppy route runner and makes Schaub's passes look like they were thrown in the dirt or over Jacoby's head--In Kubiak's offense, you have to be in the right spot at the right time...you have to run PRECISE routes and break off the routes at the right time, because Schaub is timing his throw to a certain spot at a certain time.

This is why guys like Dreessen and OD and AJ and Walter are in this offense. Kubiak isn't just looking for whatever WR might be out there. He wants them to be reliable in the route running. He wants them to be precise. Some guys just don't do that, they freestyle it and they fit QBs like a Favre who also freestyles it a lot.

But Wallace's big problem is his price tag. Period.

Marcus
03-19-2012, 10:47 AM
Speaking of Lestar Jean . . .

Did anyone besides me find his "injury/IR" status last preseason a little suspicious, for the lack of better words?

I mean, he was tearing it up in the 2nd halfs of the 1st two preseason games, and then we never saw him again. Then, in response to a question, Kubes said he was iinjured, and put on IR. I'm wondering if Kubes was just putting him "on ice" because he knew there wouldn't be an opening roster spot for him, but knew he wouldn't make it to the practice squad because he'd be picked up on waivers.

That was just something I'd been wondering about for a long time, and I thought I'd finally throw it out to see what you guys thought.

Blake
03-19-2012, 10:50 AM
1 example is Lestar Jean.

Yeah, I know...he's not a big name from a big-time team, but Lestar Jean is that type of home-grown talent that will be a good fit for our offense.

He runs routes the way a route should be ran, unlike Jacoby who is a sloppy route runner and makes Schaub's passes look like they were thrown in the dirt or over Jacoby's head--In Kubiak's offense, you have to be in the right spot at the right time...you have to run PRECISE routes and break off the routes at the right time, because Schaub is timing his throw to a certain spot at a certain time.

This is why guys like Dreessen and OD and AJ and Walter are in this offense. Kubiak isn't just looking for whatever WR might be out there. He wants them to be reliable in the route running. He wants them to be precise. Some guys just don't do that, they freestyle it and they fit QBs like a Favre who also freestyles it a lot.

But Wallace's big problem is his price tag. Period.

I totally get where you are coming from, and I am also excited to see more of Lester Jean. Only problem I see with your post is that if Kubiak value's route running so much, then why even bother with Jacoby Jones this season? Dude has been in the league 4 seasons and is still awful with his route running.

I really think the only reason he is around is that his cap number this season is practically that of a rookie WR. But we've gone back and forth on what his cap hit actually is.

Rey
03-19-2012, 10:58 AM
1 example is Lestar Jean.

Yeah, I know...he's not a big name from a big-time team, but Lestar Jean is that type of home-grown talent that will be a good fit for our offense.

He runs routes the way a route should be ran, unlike Jacoby who is a sloppy route runner and makes Schaub's passes look like they were thrown in the dirt or over Jacoby's head--In Kubiak's offense, you have to be in the right spot at the right time...you have to run PRECISE routes and break off the routes at the right time, because Schaub is timing his throw to a certain spot at a certain time.


I think you are overstating this...

Matt isn't out there just throwing to spots where the WR should be. When someone says that this is a "timing" offense it means that certain things on a given play need to be executed within a certain rythm...Like on bootlegs before a WR or TE gets into their route and is in a position to catch the ball, they need to sell the run for a certain amount of time so they are in rythm with everything else going on with the play...Normally it's like a 3 count, but it probably varies from play to, team to team, whatever...

It does not mean, be in a specific place at a specific time per se....

All of Matt's balls are not going to be perfect and he has thrown bad passes to more players than just Jacoby. Regardless of the timing aspects of a route, he still needs to see his target and throw a catchable ball...

Not if we are talking about a WR going one direction and Matt thinking he's going somewhere else...that's different. But if we are talking rounding your routes or not getting the proper depth or something of that nature that shouldn't affect the throw much...Maybe the receiver doesn't get as open as he should but the throw can still be on point. I remember a few times last year where a receiver was open for a catch and Matt short armed the throw...And that wasn't just to Jacoby...

Jacoby moves funny to me...He has awkward mannerisims...He's not a crisp, tight movement guy and I think that is a big part of his problem (along with him not having that great a pair of hands)....

But I don't think he has bad timing in the offense. Jacoby would be a good 3/4 receiver, but he is no #2 and he is no #1.....

michaelm
03-19-2012, 11:03 AM
He runs routes the way a route should be ran, unlike Jacoby who is a sloppy route runner and makes Schaub's passes look like they were thrown in the dirt or over Jacoby's head--In Kubiak's offense, you have to be in the right spot at the right time...you have to run PRECISE routes and break off the routes at the right time, because Schaub is timing his throw to a certain spot at a certain time.


I'm not disagreeing with any of the above, but considering what you said, why is the supposedly sloppy route running Jacoby Jones still on a team with a head coach who requires that skill?
Only thing I can think of is that jacoby has a Kubiak voodoo doll.

GP
03-19-2012, 11:06 AM
I think you are overstating this...

Matt isn't out there just throwing to spots where the WR should be. When someone says that this is a "timing" offense it means that certain things on a given play need to be executed within a certain rythm...Like on bootlegs before a WR or TE gets into their route and is in a position to catch the ball, they need to sell the run for a certain amount of time.

It does not mean, be in a specific place at a specific time per se....

All of Matt's balls are not going to be perfect and he has thrown bad passes to more players than just Jacoby. Regardless of the timing aspects of a route, he still needs to see his target and throw a catchable ball...

Not if we are talking about a WR going one direction and Matt thinking he's going somewhere else...that's different. But if we are talking rounding your routes or not getting the proper depth or something of that nature that shouldn't affect the throw much...Maybe the receiver doesn't get as open as he should but the throw can still be on point. I remember a few times last year where a receiver was open for a catch and Matt short armed the throw...And that wasn't just to Jacoby...

Jacoby moves funny to me...He has awkward mannerisims...He's not a crisp, tight movement guy and I think that is a big part of his problem (along with him not having that great a pair of hands)....

But I don't think he has bad timing in the offense. Jacoby would be a good 3/4 receiver, but he is no #2 and he is no #1.....

Jacoby is sloppy. Period.

It's evident in his punt returning, too. It affects his route running. He doesn't pay attention to details.

When Jacoby breaks off a route two yards later than he should, the ball is in the dirt at his feet. When he breaks off a route earlier than he should, the ball is over his head. He hurts himself, and our team, by being a sloppy route runner.

It's something that I didn't notice until this season. And I was THE leading supporter of Jacoby during the summer of 2011 when the Jacoby vs. David Anderson debate was all the rage around here. I began to really study Jacoby's route running because I couldn't figure out why so many passes to Jacobu ended up short or long and he didn't even have a chance at those passes...I kept thinking, "There's no way Schaub is THAT inaccurate." And he isn't.

Yeah, Schaub is going to be hurried and wing a pass or twelve. But I'm talking about the times when Schaub had time to stand in the pocket and throw. I don't have time to find the film and break it down...and it would just be picked apart anyways, so there's no use in trying.

I stick to my statement: Jacoby is not a "details" guy. This is why he fields punts "on the bounce" in playoffs games. It's why he runs backwards on punts, or from sideline to sideline and gains 1 yard after running for 10 seconds. It's why the ball is over his head or at his feet when he's out there as a WR.

Jacoby is either on or off when the ball hits his hands. He's like laying the roulette wheel...you bet black and it turns up red, you lose. Then you play red, it turns black and you lose. Then you bet red again, and you win. There's just no reliability from him. None. He's not a details guy.

GP
03-19-2012, 11:14 AM
Speaking of Lestar Jean . . .

Did anyone besides me find his "injury/IR" status last preseason a little suspicious, for the lack of better words?

I mean, he was tearing it up in the 2nd halfs of the 1st two preseason games, and then we never saw him again. Then, in response to a question, Kubes said he was iinjured, and put on IR. I'm wondering if Kubes was just putting him "on ice" because he knew there wouldn't be an opening roster spot for him, but knew he wouldn't make it to the practice squad because he'd be picked up on waivers.

That was just something I'd been wondering about for a long time, and I thought I'd finally throw it out to see what you guys thought.

I didn't mention that in my pervious posts here...because people think I have lots of crazy conspiracy theories about stuff like that.

But, yeah...I get what you're saying. It was fishy.

I remember thinking the same thing. He wasn't hurt enough to be fully I.R.'d, IMO, but Kubiak knew he had to work the system to protect him from being snagged by another team. That was my opinion then, it's my opinion now.

I totally get where you are coming from, and I am also excited to see more of Lester Jean. Only problem I see with your post is that if Kubiak value's route running so much, then why even bother with Jacoby Jones this season? Dude has been in the league 4 seasons and is still awful with his route running.

I really think the only reason he is around is that his cap number this season is practically that of a rookie WR. But we've gone back and forth on what his cap hit actually is.

Because he was a Kubiak pick. 100%. And as much as I appreciate the way Kubiak is loyal to his guys, this is the sort of thing that gets to me.

Kubiak is a David Anderson fan, too. Brought him back for a game or two in 2011 because of his affinity for the guy. When you are IN with Kubiak, you're IN. Bob McNair even said that Kubiak had a hard time letting go of struggling d-coord Frank Bush. Which tells me--my theory here--that Wade Phillips was not Kubiak's decision...McNair urged him to fire Bush and told him he wanted Wade, and Kubiak relented and agreed to fire Frank and hire Wade.

McNair said in a recent interview that Dom Capers' inability to fire struggling assistants and coordinators is what got us the 2-14 season...and got Dom fired for it. So, this tells me that McNair gives his HC wide latitude in how to hire and fire, and when to hire and fire, and it seems McNair had a heart-to-heart and told Kubiak that sticking with Frank Bush might get him (Kubiak) fired in the end. Kubiak didn't do what Dom did; Kubiak fired Frank and therefore I think McNair said, "OK, let's try Wade and give it a go with him for awhile OK?" And Kubiak was cool with it. He had to be.

Rey
03-19-2012, 11:36 AM
Jacoby is sloppy. Period.

It's evident in his punt returning, too. It affects his route running. He doesn't pay attention to details.

When Jacoby breaks off a route two yards later than he should, the ball is in the dirt at his feet. When he breaks off a route earlier than he should, the ball is over his head. He hurts himself, and our team, by being a sloppy route runner.

It's something that I didn't notice until this season. And I was THE leading supporter of Jacoby during the summer of 2011 when the Jacoby vs. David Anderson debate was all the rage around here. I began to really study Jacoby's route running because I couldn't figure out why so many passes to Jacobu ended up short or long and he didn't even have a chance at those passes...I kept thinking, "There's no way Schaub is THAT inaccurate." And he isn't.

Yeah, Schaub is going to be hurried and wing a pass or twelve. But I'm talking about the times when Schaub had time to stand in the pocket and throw. I don't have time to find the film and break it down...and it would just be picked apart anyways, so there's no use in trying.

I stick to my statement: Jacoby is not a "details" guy. This is why he fields punts "on the bounce" in playoffs games. It's why he runs backwards on punts, or from sideline to sideline and gains 1 yard after running for 10 seconds. It's why the ball is over his head or at his feet when he's out there as a WR.

Jacoby is either on or off when the ball hits his hands. He's like laying the roulette wheel...you bet black and it turns up red, you lose. Then you play red, it turns black and you lose. Then you bet red again, and you win. There's just no reliability from him. None. He's not a details guy.

I said that Jacoby is sloppy and I said he was not a #1 or #2 reciever. I thought I illustrated my point pretty well as the only thing I disagreed with you about was the "timing" part of the offense and Matt throwing balls in the dirt because of it.

We can agree to disagree on that one particular aspect or we can hash it out. A bad ball is not always on the QB, but most of the time I would say it is. An exception would be like like I stated above where the receiver flat out does the wrong thing or goes the wrong direction.

I've seen Matt throw balls in the dirt to Andre and he is about as crisp and clean a route runner as there is.

GP
03-19-2012, 12:45 PM
I said that Jacoby is sloppy and I said he was not a #1 or #2 reciever. I thought I illustrated my point pretty well as the only thing I disagreed with you about was the "timing" part of the offense and Matt throwing balls in the dirt because of it.

We can agree to disagree on that one particular aspect or we can hash it out. A bad ball is not always on the QB, but most of the time I would say it is. An exception would be like like I stated above where the receiver flat out does the wrong thing or goes the wrong direction.

I've seen Matt throw balls in the dirt to Andre and he is about as crisp and clean a route runner as there is.

I didn't read all of your post. I was just re-stating my viewpoint with more detail than I did before. My bad.

Yes, Schaub is going to lame duck a few passes. I agree. But more times than not, the receivers are in the vicinity and can get a hand on a pass. With JJ, I notice that he is many times not even in the right "area"...he's several yards (which can be as much as 6 feet since two yards is 6 feet) and therefore he's out of position to begin with. His frame and athleticism allow him to make up some of that gap, but even so...he is behind the 8-ball by that point in time. That's why a pass glances off his hands awkwardly. He has a lot of that, and it's on him.

He also drops easy passes too. Was re-watching the 2010 Texans/Skins game and he dropped two or three easy passes. It was bad.

My problem is AJ went down, and beginning with the Raiders game we needed him to step up and be a dynamic part of the offense. But he couldn't do it. He was a non-factor in the Raiders game. He was largely absent the entire year.

I think we have better talent for his spot on the roster. I didn't think that in the summer of 2011, but I do now. For the reward he can bring, he's not worth the risk involved with trying to throw to him. He's had many, many years to get there and at the end of the day he shouldn't even be WR3 here.

Bulls on Parade
03-19-2012, 12:56 PM
I'd love to see the Texans make Mike Wallace an offer the Steelers couldn't match. Giving up the 26th pick for him is a bargin. But unfortunately, now that the Broncos signed Peyton Manning and still have a lot of cap space left... It's hard to imagine the Broncos not offering Mike Wallace a big contract offer. They would have to give up the 25th pick to Pittsburgh if they failed to match.

badboy
03-19-2012, 01:10 PM
I'm still of the opinion that Marvin McNutt will be avail #58 and coupled with Lestar Jean should fill out the position. OLB in first.

GP
03-19-2012, 01:48 PM
I'm still of the opinion that Marvin McNutt will be avail #58 and coupled with Lestar Jean should fill out the position. OLB in first.

No thanks. I don't want a guy with a name like Marvin McNutt on my team.

I am a big believer in how a person's name affects their talent level. Guys like John Elway, Joe Montana, Michael Jordan, Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, Joe Namath, they all have cool-ass names.

Marvin McNutt? No way.

Might as well be Harold Flaghnessy or Delbert O'Riley. Or maybe Leonard Rustpocket.

He would have to be out-of-this-universe AWESOME for me to look at our roster and see Marvin McNutt's name on there. Sounds like a cartoon character.

GP
03-19-2012, 01:52 PM
GP, I was contemplating starting a Mario Williams is a Bill thread.... Thoughts??


:fingergun:

No, we need this thread title to pop up on the Texans Talk forum:

WTH? We didn't get Mario? Broncos land Manning too?!?! Shane got killed off on The Walking Dead?!?! Obama is an alien! Do you think we should trade Lowry?

redwhiteblue
03-19-2012, 04:35 PM
I am a fan of Lestar Jean, but I can't extrapolate plays he made in preseason games against a second team defense, into how he will produce in the NFL. While I think Jean may have a chance to start ahead of anyone we draft other than Malcolm Floyd, I have not seen enough to determine he is the long term answer for a #2 or an eventual #1. I started this thread because I am aware of the financial implications of signing Wallace, but he has 3 solid years of NFL production, and if Andre Johnson can not return to 100% or has nagging reoccuring injuries, I do not wish to see the Texans play out the season with Walter, Jones, Jean and a rookie wide receiver. Wallace can be our #1 and AJ can spend his final years as a Texan being the #2 option. If AJ remains healthy, it can be a #1a, 1b situation similar to Fitzgerald and Boldin.

Rey
03-19-2012, 04:47 PM
No thanks. I don't want a guy with a name like Marvin McNutt on my team.

I am a big believer in how a person's name affects their talent level. Guys like John Elway, Joe Montana, Michael Jordan, Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, Joe Namath, they all have cool-ass names.

Marvin McNutt? No way.

Might as well be Harold Flaghnessy or Delbert O'Riley. Or maybe Leonard Rustpocket.

He would have to be out-of-this-universe AWESOME for me to look at our roster and see Marvin McNutt's name on there. Sounds like a cartoon character.

What about LeStar Jean? That sounds pretty cool...


But about Lestar....I would treat him the same way we treated Arian...

Arian played well at the end of the season and looked pretty damn good in an actual NFL game...But we still brought in Ben Tate in the second round...

I'd still draft a good WR and if Jean beats him out then he beats him out. If the rookie WR looks good then the worse thing that happens is you have two good players added to your WR corps...

Honestly, I am thinking we should target WR in the 3rd, but I don't know who will be available when, so its hard to say...

Goldensilence
03-19-2012, 05:14 PM
I'd really love the FO to give some consideration, not to Wallace necessarily, but a look at someone who might turn into a legit #2 in FA.

Truth is this staff really hasn't done a great job at developing WRs. Lestar Jean? No clue, I didn't get to watch much preseason action this year. But, seems like every offseason we have a flavor of the OTAS and preseason that never pans out at WR.

The Derrick Mason move baffled me. Dude was NOT what we needed then. Maybe Gary and Co. are having to learn position by position that having "their guys" can only work if they can be coached up or that they aren't just lunch pail sort of guys.

IF they do pick up a WR in the first or second I'd have much more confidence if they were a bit more polished.

TejasTom
03-19-2012, 05:35 PM
"preseason sensation" and "before getting hurt" are two phrases that do not instill a lot of confidence in me.

Two words: Ben Tate

redwhiteblue
03-19-2012, 06:19 PM
Two words: Ben Tate

Vernand Morency
Wali Lundy

GP
03-19-2012, 06:22 PM
Vernand Morency
Wali Lundy

Arian Foster
Ben Tate

Sometimes you hit, sometimes you miss. That's the game.

But if you grab Wallace, you gonna' pay out the nose for the guy. BIG TIME. Nobody is saying he isn't good enough, it's strictly a problem of economics.

The Third Man
03-19-2012, 06:30 PM
If not Mike Wallace, how about Morley Safer?

HA!

Both Morely Safer and the decaying corpse of Andy Rooney are more effective than Jacoby Jones.

Allstar
03-19-2012, 06:33 PM
Really don't see why this conversation is going on. Yes, it'd be nice to have Mike Wallace, but it would be extremely foolish to pay for him if you want to keep your core together. redwhiteblue, you have to see this.

majestrate
03-20-2012, 10:54 AM
HA!

Both Morely Safer and the decaying corpse of Andy Rooney are more effective than Jacoby Jones.
I'm pretty sure, at this point, Andy Rooney stinks as bad as Jacoby Jones

:deadhorse

Bulls on Parade
03-21-2012, 11:09 AM
How much more money on this year's salary cap would the Texans save if they released Jacoby Jones, Kareem Jackson and Antonio Smith? Would it be enough to make Mike Wallace a fair contract offer or would it be too small and the Steelers will just match it? Losing the 26th pick for a deep downfield threat is well worth it.

Or would it just be easier to try and trade into the 3 to 5 pick range and draft Justin Blackmon? I'm thinking of a Mike Ditka for Ricky Williams type trade. We offer all of our picks in the top four rounds this year, and then add a future first, second and third next year. Not even sure if that's enough. I don't have Jimmy Johnson's value chart in front of me right now.

I'm thinking outside the box here but I want to make some type of splash this off-season. Something to give the city of Houston some buzz and excitement. It's been frustrating to be losing so many great players.

Texan_Bill
03-21-2012, 11:12 AM
How much more money on this year's salary cap would the Texans save if they released Jacoby Jones, Kareem Jackson and Antonio Smith? Would it be enough to make Mike Wallace a fair contract offer or would it be too small and the Steelers will just match it? Losing the 26th pick for a deep downfield threat is well worth it.

Or would it just be easier to try and trade into the 3 to 5 pick range and draft Justin Blackmon? I'm thinking of a Mike Ditka for Ricky Williams type trade. We offer all of our picks in the top four rounds this year, and then add a future first, second and third next year. Not even sure if that's enough. I don't have Jimmy Johnson's value chart in front of me right now.

I'm thinking outside the box here but I want to make some type of splash this off-season. Something to give the city of Houston some buzz and excitement. It's been frustrating to be losing so many great players.

Really??? :facepalm:

Why would you blow your wad when this draft class is rich in recievers?

Bulls on Parade
03-21-2012, 11:16 AM
Really??? :facepalm:

Why would you blow your wad when this draft class is rich in recievers?
Justin Blackmon reminds me a lot of Andre Johnson. I feel like he's going to be the most pro ready as a rookie. All of those other guys are a crap shoot. Blackmon is going to be a top three WR in the NFL during his prime. He'll be taking over the game at the same time Andre is at the tail end of his career and nearing retirement.

Texan_Bill
03-21-2012, 11:36 AM
Justin Blackmon reminds me a lot of Andre Johnson. I feel like he's going to be the most pro ready as a rookie. All of those other guys are a crap shoot. Blackmon is going to be a top three WR in the NFL during his prime. He'll be taking over the game at the same time Andre is at the tail end of his career and nearing retirement.

All draft choices are a crap shoot. Even at receiver.

Signed,

Mike Williams, Charles Rogers

HOU-TEX
03-21-2012, 11:43 AM
Really??? :facepalm:

Why would you blow your wad when this draft class is rich in recievers?

That said, Wright just blasted a 4.43 40 at Baylor's pro day. I think we can darn near take him off our board now.

Texan_Bill
03-21-2012, 11:48 AM
That said, Wright just blasted a 4.43 40 at Baylor's pro day. I think we can darn near take him off our board now.

Damnit!! That was the guy I was eyeballing.

bigbrewster2000
03-21-2012, 11:50 AM
How much more money on this year's salary cap would the Texans save if they released Jacoby Jones, Kareem Jackson and Antonio Smith? Would it be enough to make Mike Wallace a fair contract offer or would it be too small and the Steelers will just match it? Losing the 26th pick for a deep downfield threat is well worth it.

Or would it just be easier to try and trade into the 3 to 5 pick range and draft Justin Blackmon? I'm thinking of a Mike Ditka for Ricky Williams type trade. We offer all of our picks in the top four rounds this year, and then add a future first, second and third next year. Not even sure if that's enough. I don't have Jimmy Johnson's value chart in front of me right now.

I'm thinking outside the box here but I want to make some type of splash this off-season. Something to give the city of Houston some buzz and excitement. It's been frustrating to be losing so many great players.

I think both options are terrible. Removing 2 defensive starters on your team for one over priced albeit very good offensive player is a bad idea. You start severely damaging depth across the team if you do that. Being splashy just to think out of the box is not a good idea.

Getting rid of your entire draft, when you have many needs is bad for similar reasons as above. We need depth or possibly another starter in a few places on this team so more pics the better. Sorry to poop in your cherrios.

Edit:I would also add that it will cost us money to cut KJ

Texan_Bill
03-21-2012, 11:56 AM
I think both options are terrible. Removing 2 defensive starters on your team for one over priced albeit very good offensive player is a bad idea. You start severely damaging depth across the team if you do that. Being splashy just to think out of the box is not a good idea.

Getting rid of your entire draft, when you have many needs is bad for similar reasons as above. We need depth or possibly another starter in a few places on this team so more pics the better. Sorry to poop in your cherrios.

Edit:I would also add that it will cost us money to cut KJ

/END Thread!

Good post Brew!!

NETxTexanFan
03-21-2012, 12:05 PM
Wallace would not count towards comp picks because he's a RFA. They're separate because otherwise teams would get 2 picks for one player. I still don't think we would sign Wallace simply because of the money. He'd be a clear improvement opposite Andre but we can't afford him.When people say we can't afford Wallace do they mean we would be over the cap and unable to sign rookies or do they mean we would allow ourselves little wiggle room after signing him and the rookies?

If the answer is the second one than I see no reason not to get him because he is a proven player who we would know what we are getting.

I am rooting for LeStar Jean but the reality is that even if he kicks ass throughout training camp and the pre season it is quite different many times when the regular season takes place. I would rather see Jean as a our third option if he plays well and have him learn behind Johnson and any other above average veteran receiver we would acquire.

I feel that the team can get a quality OLB beyond the third round and at least a starting talent wide out late in the second. The O-line to me now seems the most pressing need. I don't feel we need to draft a starting OLB because I feel we are set in that regards at the position. That is my opinion though.

The Texans are not going to pick up anybody of note in free agency so none of this matters. I think we will be fine. The team will at least finish with the same record as last year or maybe one game worse but there should not be a major drop off. The season after this upcoming one could be the big one for our Texans in regards to making a serious title run.

Texan_Bill
03-21-2012, 12:22 PM
When people say we can't afford Wallace do they mean we would be over the cap and unable to sign rookies or do they mean we would allow ourselves little wiggle room after signing him and the rookies?

No. They mean you mortgage the future with depth by giving up too muchl.

If the answer is the second one than I see no reason not to get him because he is a proven player who we would know what we are getting.

Proven? Where?? At the collegiate level??

That means diddly squat.

Signed,

Charles Rogers, Tim Tebow, Vince Young, Curt Warner, and countless others.

michaelm
03-21-2012, 03:14 PM
Proven? Where?? At the collegiate level??

That means diddly squat.

Signed,

Charles Rogers, Tim Tebow, Vince Young, Curt Warner, and countless others.

I'm pretty sure he was saying that Wallace is proven, and so it would be OK to give up a first round draft pick to acquire him.
Basically, you would add Wallace's salary, but because you've given up your first round draft choice as compensation for RFA, your rookie salary pool is reduced. It's not reduced enough to offset the Wallace contract, but it is reduced by a decent amount.

Playoffs
03-22-2012, 10:20 AM
Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite ∑ Open
Restricted free agent Mike Wallace isn't drawing much NFL interest
because he wants more money than Larry Fitzgerald:

ArlingtonTexan
03-22-2012, 08:24 PM
Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite ∑ Open
Restricted free agent Mike Wallace isn't drawing much NFL interest
because he wants more money than Larry Fitzgerald:

http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2012/03/the-49ers-inquired-about-mike-wallace-but.html

LonerATO
03-22-2012, 08:27 PM
Are we really having this discussion?

Texan_Bill
03-22-2012, 08:43 PM
I'm pretty sure he was saying that Wallace is proven, and so it would be OK to give up a first round draft pick to acquire him.
Basically, you would add Wallace's salary, but because you've given up your first round draft choice as compensation for RFA, your rookie salary pool is reduced. It's not reduced enough to offset the Wallace contract, but it is reduced by a decent amount.

Why, why would you ever drop that kind of money on an existing receiver when this is actually a very RICH receiver class... Stupid (or for the 'hipsters' - 'stoopid')

Texan_Bill
03-22-2012, 08:46 PM
Are we really having this discussion?

:thinking:


YESSSS!. Isn't that what message boards are for???? NO?


That said, I stick to my original............ Efff Wallace. Not a good fit.

srrono
03-22-2012, 08:47 PM
Who else would love to see the Texans give up their #26 pick and sign Mike Wallace from the Steelers?

LMAO how are the Texans going to pay Wallace? Have you been paying attention Texans have no cap space?

Playoffs
07-28-2012, 11:43 AM
http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers/117381-ed-trading-wallace-best-for-both-sides

Ed: Trading Wallace Best for Both Sides

...The Steelers did more than sign a good, young receiver when Antonio Brown committed to them through the 2017 season. They lowered the kaboom on Wallace. There was little chance they were going to give into Wallace’s contract demands before they signed Brown; there is no chance now.

That doesn’t mean a multiple-year contract is no longer available to Wallace. It very well could be. But the number offered by the Steelers before AB would likely be reduced dramatically, that is if negotiations even resume with Wallace on a multiple-year deal.

A sign-and-trade remains a possibility, but the Steelers do not like to go that route because it might set a precedent for a player or players to force trades similarly in the future. However, a trade technically can happen and the scenario would look like this: The Steelers give another team or teams permission to talk to Wallace to try to work out a deal. If they do, Wallace would sign his one-year tender with the Steelers, who then would trade him to the other team.

What could they get for Wallace at this point? No team apparently was willing to give up a first-round draft choice for him when he was a restricted free agent, so why would they do it now? Santonio Holmes, remember, brought them only a fifth-round pick. I’m guessing with Wallace, it could be a fourth-rounder.

Do you do that trade? I think the Steelers have reached a point that they might. They now view Wallace as a potential distraction – not his holdout, but if he ever ends it. He not only slumped in the second half of last season...

Ryan
07-28-2012, 12:08 PM
Talk to me about it after we've resigned Barwin, Brown, and Schaub and still have cap room(which probably won't happen)

dalemurphy
07-28-2012, 01:05 PM
Wallace turned down a $50 million contract, choosing instead to play for $2.5 million this year and hit a monster pay day next year. So, we would be renting him for one year. I can't imagine a worst trade than a run-dominate team with an elite WR (Andre Johnson) trading away valuable picks for a one year WR rental. NO!!

badboy
07-28-2012, 08:56 PM
Wallace turned down a $50 million contract, choosing instead to play for $2.5 million this year and hit a monster pay day next year. So, we would be renting him for one year. I can't imagine a worst trade than a run-dominate team with an elite WR (Andre Johnson) trading away valuable picks for a one year WR rental. NO!!You think a 4th round for a Pro Bowl WR is a bad trade? I'd give our first this season and next for him. Wallace should be willing to work an AJ type contract.Work a deal for what he gets 2012 from Pitts and have him sign lengthy extension this season.

In 2013 we should be out from under the dead money burden of Slaton, Okoye, David Anderson and Orlovsky. That is approx $8million. Pay Wallace the $2.5m this season and use dead money for 2013. That gives us a probowler opposite AJ for two seasons. We have money for Duane Brown now so he is not an issue.

Here is a thread from another source that is from Feb but offers info on 2012 Texans pre-draft. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3464116#post400187767

Arrow down a bit until he talks about Texans.

Texn4life
07-28-2012, 09:01 PM
You think a 4th round for a Pro Bowl WR is a bad trade? I'd give our first this season and next for him. Wallace should be willing to work an AJ type contract.Work a deal for what he gets 2012 from Pitts and have him sign lengthy extension this season.

In 2013 we should be out from under the dead money burden of Slaton, Okoye, David Anderson and Orlovsky. That is approx $8million. Pay Wallace the $2.5m this season and use dead money for 2013. That gives us a probowler opposite AJ for two seasons. We have money for Duane Brown now so he is not an issue.

Here is a thread from another source that is from Feb but offers info on 2012 Texans pre-draft. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3464116#post400187767

Arrow down a bit until he talks about Texans.

The 4th rounder for Wallace is a no brainer. Any team in the league would give that up yesterday. The issue is he wants to be paid similar to what VJax got from Tampa this year. In the neighborhood of 5 years 55 mil. If we already had Brown, Barwin, and Schaub locked up then I'll pull the trigger. In a dream world I'd love to see it happen though.

Playoffs
07-28-2012, 09:18 PM
Wallace has said he wants Larry Fitzgerald money. That's more than Mario Williams. http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/average/

Texn4life
07-28-2012, 09:26 PM
Wallace has said he wants Larry Fitzgerald money. That's more than Mario Williams. http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/average/

Apparently he changed course recently and now said he wants Vincent Jackson money.

Wallace wants to be paid like Vincent Jackson, not Fitzgerald (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/28/wallace-wants-to-be-paid-like-vincent-jackson-not-fitzgerald/)

Playoffs
07-28-2012, 09:30 PM
Apparently he changed course recently and now said he wants Vincent Jackson money.

Wallace wants to be paid like Vincent Jackson, not Fitzgerald (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/28/wallace-wants-to-be-paid-like-vincent-jackson-not-fitzgerald/)
Ahh, okay. $11 million per year vs. $16 million. Andre averages ~$9 million.

I don't think we have the QB arm to fully utilize Wallace's best attribute, anyway.

badboy
07-28-2012, 09:30 PM
The 4th rounder for Wallace is a no brainer. Any team in the league would give that up yesterday. The issue is he wants to be paid similar to what VJax got from Tampa this year. In the neighborhood of 5 years 55 mil. If we already had Brown, Barwin, and Schaub locked up then I'll pull the trigger. In a dream world I'd love to see it happen though.Take a few minutes and look at the 2012 roster. Can you not find $10- 11m to cut for a probowler? '

How about re-working J. Joseph and A. Smith's deals. That would pay for most of it. Let's not forget the money we gained from Demeco, Briesel, Leinert, the money "reserved" for Mario but not used,


We can cut Holliday $540K, Iglesias $540K, Ra'Shon Harris $390K, Beck $700K, Sherrick McManus $490K, Shelley Smith $490K, Jon Weeks $540K that is about $3.5 to $4m

TexansFanatic
07-28-2012, 09:49 PM
Take a few minutes and look at the 2012 roster. Can you not find $10- 11m to cut for a probowler? '

We can cut Holliday $540K, Iglesias $540K, Ra'Shon Harris $390K, Beck $700K, Sherrick McManus $490K, Shelley Smith $490K, Jon Weeks $540K that is about $3.5 to $4m

Those figures are all so close to the league minimum that you're not really saving any money by cutting those guys because you're only going to have to replace them with other league minimum players to fill out the roster.

Texn4life
07-28-2012, 09:50 PM
Take a few minutes and look at the 2012 roster. Can you not find $10- 11m to cut for a probowler? '

How about re-working J. Joseph and A. Smith's deals. That would pay for most of it. Let's not forget the money we gained from Demeco, Briesel, Leinert, the money "reserved" for Mario but not used,


We can cut Holliday $540K, Iglesias $540K, Ra'Shon Harris $390K, Beck $700K, Sherrick McManus $490K, Shelley Smith $490K, Jon Weeks $540K that is about $3.5 to $4m

To be honest I'm not a cap expert so I wouldn't know exactly what would need to be done. I just know that a lot of money would be tied up at the receiver position with Wallace and AJ on the roster together. If it could be done and we could keep our key components then I'd be all for it.

badboy
07-28-2012, 10:10 PM
Those figures are all so close to the league minimum that you're not really saving any money by cutting those guys because you're only going to have to replace them with other league minimum players to fill out the roster.

Interesting you focused on the bottom of the barrel guys rather than the other two areas I mentioned that would allow us to sign Wallace. Why is everyone so willing to shell out big bucks for Barwin and Brown? It's because they are worth it at key positions. Well a pro bowl WR who can play oposite AJ and then move to WR1 when AJ hangs them up is also worth the bucks. I cannot understand anyone not getting this. Hell's bells! Re-work Manning.

IIRC, McNair said Mario's salary for 2011 was apprx $13.8m. Let's say cap was met at $120m minus $14 = $106m where did that 14 go? Escalators? Yeah some, but there were other guys who left whose millions have to fit in somewhere.

badboy
07-28-2012, 10:12 PM
To be honest I'm not a cap expert so I wouldn't know exactly what would need to be done. I just know that a lot of money would be tied up at the receiver position with Wallace and AJ on the roster together. If it could be done and we could keep our key components then I'd be all for it.AJ's recent re-worked contract counts $700,000 in base this season. Same could be done for those I mentioned above. If we had Wallace, AJ and Martin, could we cut Walter?

Texn4life
07-28-2012, 10:16 PM
AJ's recent re-worked contract counts $700,000 in base this season. Same could be done for those I mentioned above. If we had Wallace, AJ and Martin, could we cut Walter?

I'm sure you could. Have no idea what the cap ramifications would be though. The only thing about re-working contracts is eventually you're going to have to have their contracts count against the cap. Pushing it back has put some teams in cap hell from my understanding of it. Again, I'm with you if they could make it work.

Nawzer
07-28-2012, 10:16 PM
When did this Mike Wallace to the Texans become a thing??? Man, I've missed out on this thread I think.

TexansFanatic
07-28-2012, 10:36 PM
Interesting you focused on the bottom of the barrel guys rather than the other two areas I mentioned that would allow us to sign Wallace.

I focused on that because that was the portion of your reasoning that was flawed. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't sign Wallace, I'm just saying it can't be done that way.

It's not logical to think you can cut league minimum guys to sign high-dollar guys. You have to fill out your roster. And because there's a league minimum salary, you can't just sign clowns off the street for $50k/year.

I'm all for signing Wallace, but it simply won't be as easy as you make it seem. If it were easy to approach high-dollar players with re-worked contracts and get them to agree, it would be happening a lot more often.

b0ng
07-29-2012, 12:03 AM
Wallace to the Texans is a pipe dream. We aren't cutting 5 or 6 players to make room for Wallace, does not matter how prudent we as a collective may think it is.

Lucky
07-29-2012, 08:58 AM
When did this Mike Wallace to the Texans become a thing??? Man, I've missed out on this thread I think.
Fits in with the "Percy Harvin to the Texans" and "Dwight Howard to the Rockets". Should be in the "Things that will never happen" forum.

JB
07-29-2012, 09:17 AM
Fits in with the "Percy Harvin to the Texans" and "Dwight Howard to the Rockets". Should be in the "Things that will never happen" forum.


We got one of those now? Cool!!! :hurrah:

CloakNNNdagger
07-29-2012, 09:47 AM
AJ's recent re-worked contract counts $700,000 in base this season. Same could be done for those I mentioned above. If we had Wallace, AJ and Martin, could we cut Walter?

I'm sure you could. Have no idea what the cap ramifications would be though. The only thing about re-working contracts is eventually you're going to have to have their contracts count against the cap. Pushing it back has put some teams in cap hell from my understanding of it. Again, I'm with you if they could make it work.

AJ did rework his contract to a 2012 $700,000 base with a $4,848,571 cap hit. Next year his base salary jumps to $6,200,000 and I would suspect that the cap hit would accordingly escalate impressively.

ESAD2-14
07-29-2012, 09:47 AM
Fits in with the "Percy Harvin to the Texans" and "Dwight Howard to the Rockets". Should be in the "Things that will never happen" forum.

Or perhaps this is the true meaning of Fantasy Football, which btw there is a forum for. I have a sneaking suspicion you probably already knew it existed though.

ArlingtonTexan
07-29-2012, 10:03 AM
Fits in with the "Percy Harvin to the Texans" and "Dwight Howard to the Rockets". Should be in the "Things that will never happen" forum.

We got one of those now? Cool!!! :hurrah:

At least thread is no"Arlington Texan winning Powerball" thread from what I can see.

GuerillaBlack
07-29-2012, 10:59 AM
Fits in with the "Percy Harvin to the Texans" and "Dwight Howard to the Rockets". Should be in the "Things that will never happen" forum.

Except Dwight to the Rockets is an actual trade being worked on and not just a fan pipe dream.

Lucky
07-29-2012, 11:26 AM
Except Dwight to the Rockets is an actual trade being worked on and not just a fan pipe dream.
Whatever you say.

drunkcookie
07-29-2012, 11:45 AM
From Jason LaCanfora via Tweet

Steelers GM Kevin Colbert told me, emphatically, "Mike Wallace is not available for trade," and said the WR remains in longterm plans...

Norg
07-29-2012, 02:29 PM
i dont think this is going to happpen because look how our offense is ran alot of running the ball alot of boots and alot of get the ball out of the qb's hand quick

the ball goes to our RB first then TE then prob FB hell

Mike will have to do alotttt of run blocking seems like a waste to me i think we should get a good Vet TE instead in case Garrett does not work out

badboy
07-30-2012, 02:47 PM
AJ did rework his contract to a 2012 $700,000 base with a $4,848,571 cap hit. Next year his base salary jumps to $6,200,000 and I would suspect that the cap hit would accordingly escalate impressively.My understanding is he got a $5.2m signing bonus that will be averaged thur 2016 so his cap will be much smaller. He also was to get an annual $1m work out bonus but not sure if he gets that under the new 2012 deal.

Regardless, it is many millions less than originally and has not been used yet. Ball and the Dallas ILB were peanuts.

Texan_Bill
07-30-2012, 04:02 PM
I think this sums up the whole Wallace debate pretty well:

Stephanie Stradley ‏@StephStradley
Please stop listening to vomity sports talk topics. There's no $ for Wallace RT @closest2thepin: what do you think? Tate for mike Wallace?



Love that word "vomity"

Dutchrudder
07-30-2012, 10:20 PM
My understanding is he got a $5.2m signing bonus that will be averaged thur 2016 so his cap will be much smaller. He also was to get an annual $1m work out bonus but not sure if he gets that under the new 2012 deal.

Regardless, it is many millions less than originally and has not been used yet. Ball and the Dallas ILB were peanuts.

Every time his salary got restructured, it was changed into a signing bonus that is prorated through the remainder of the contract. He has done that the last two years and has a substantial increase in pay the next few years because of this. AJ will be a cap problem in the next few years if he doesn't get extended for cheap, and have current salary spread out over those extra years.

badboy
07-30-2012, 10:24 PM
Every time his salary got restructured, it was changed into a signing bonus that is prorated through the remainder of the contract. He has done that the last two years and has a substantial increase in pay the next few years because of this. AJ will be a cap problem in the next few years if he doesn't get extended for cheap, and have current salary spread out over those extra years.He has already been extended thru 2016 but Aj is not the issue. There are other vets that could be re-structured.

badboy
07-30-2012, 10:32 PM
I think this sums up the whole Wallace debate pretty well:



Love that word "vomity"Quote:
Stephanie Stradley ‏@StephStradley
Please stop listening to vomity sports talk topics. There's no $ for Wallace RT @closest2thepin: what do you think? Tate for mike Wallace?

Hey Bill, ask Stephanie what happened to the money that is not going to Briesel, WInston, Allen, etc? I thought it was being saved for our 2012 free agents but seems like we have a need now & it seems those guys will not be addressed until after 2012 season.. If Mario had agreed to re-sign with Texans where would that money have come from?

I think it is a legitimate concern and fans want to talk about it, "vomity" or not.

Texan_Bill
07-30-2012, 10:43 PM
Quote:
Stephanie Stradley ‏@StephStradley
Please stop listening to vomity sports talk topics. There's no $ for Wallace RT @closest2thepin: what do you think? Tate for mike Wallace?

Hey Bill, ask Stephanie what happened to the money that is not going to Briesel, WInston, Allen, etc? I thought it was being saved for our 2012 free agents but seems like we have a need now & it seems those guys will not be addressed until after 2012 season.. If Mario had agreed to re-sign with Texans where would that money have come from?

I think it is a legitimate concern and fans want to talk about it, "vomity" or not.

I don't have to ask! Bisquit, Winston and Allen were cut because the Texans didn't have money to pay them. In short, they were "up against it" in terms of money they could spend. Part of that money got Meyers signed, but also looking forward to getting Brown, Schaub and others next season.

Hell BadBoy, ask Steph yourself the total ramifications! She'll give you a complete and fairly accurate breakdown of what's up!!

I'll see if I can find a breakdown from Twitter from earlier!!

In the meantime, be good bro'!!

Dutchrudder
07-30-2012, 11:34 PM
He has already been extended thru 2016 but Aj is not the issue. There are other vets that could be re-structured.

Not this year, starting next year his caphit will be 10 million plus for the next 4 years. We may end up cutting him in 2015 due to cap considerations, but will continue having him on the books due to signing bonuses and restructures.

We just don't have much capspace at this point, and Mike Wallace isn't going to re-sign with us unless we give him AJ money. A team can only have so many AJs, and WRs are kind of useless without a QB. Schaub and Brown will take precedence over Wallace even if we got him somehow, so it would be a 1 year rental. I'd rather keep Tate behind Foster and have him help keep Arian healthy.

steelbtexan
07-31-2012, 12:57 AM
Not this year, starting next year his caphit will be 10 million plus for the next 4 years. We may end up cutting him in 2015 due to cap considerations, but will continue having him on the books due to signing bonuses and restructures.

We just don't have much capspace at this point, and Mike Wallace isn't going to re-sign with us unless we give him AJ money. A team can only have so many AJs, and WRs are kind of useless without a QB. Schaub and Brown will take precedence over Wallace even if we got him somehow, so it would be a 1 year rental. I'd rather keep Tate behind Foster and have him help keep Arian healthy.

Trading AJ would create cap room.

Cap room wont matter if Schaub/AJ only play 8-10 games this yr. AJ's injury history is why I wanted to see the Texans trade up high in the 2nd rd and take Hill/Jeffery like Jets/Bears did.

Dutchrudder
07-31-2012, 09:00 AM
Trading AJ would create cap room.

Cap room wont matter if Schaub/AJ only play 8-10 games this yr. AJ's injury history is why I wanted to see the Texans trade up high in the 2nd rd and take Hill/Jeffery like Jets/Bears did.

He still has a good amount of signing bonus and restructure money left on his deal. Trading him would accelerate all of that to the current year, and hamstring our chances of re-signing Schaub, Barwin and Brown. AJ needs to stay on the books for at least two more years, unless he plans on retiring, or he needs to do a minimum deal extension and restructure to spread out the next few years of salary.

I'm not saying we can't keep AJ as it stands right now, but his contract is going to hurt the team in a year or two to the point that we may have to let some of our better up and coming talent go.

GP
07-31-2012, 09:18 AM
As it has been pointed out...keep AJ for two more years, and then think about doing a deal with a talented #1 WR who is seeking a new team.

AVOID THE TEMPTATION TO FIND THE NEXT AJ
Don't try and draft a guy. Don't try and find the next AJ in the draft. And don't even try and find the next AJ in free agency. Those guys, such as AJ and Hakeem Olajuwon (NBA) are rare players...you aren't going to fully replace them once they walk away. You have to be patient and wait. You have to have a high draft pick and have options on draft day. And you have to select the right person at that spot *cough*RememberCharles Rodgers*cough* so the better route is through free agency.

We just can't do it right now at the moment because the timing is wrong.

THE "IF/THEN" STATEMENT
If AJ continues to be absent this year and next, then I think the Texans ask him to retire or let him know that he has to leave so the team can pay a younger WR1 to play here. We simply cannot afford to keep him here and pay him WR1 money if his body is not holding up for 14 to 16 games each year. If we're getting 10 to 12 games, or less, out of him...it's time to move on and find another WR1 and pay him the money we'd pay AJ for being our WR1.

It's the NFL life. We all know it. It sucks, majorly, but it is what it is.

WOULD MCNAIR BE OVERLY SENTIMENTAL???
Would McNair bottle up AJ and keep him on the team, at the expense of maybe not being able to pay other top shelf talent to stay here at the same time??? I would really hope he'd not be THAT sentimental. But, ya know, that's been his way for a long time...with the exception of this year (Cutting Winston, trading Ryans, etc.).

With AJ, he's the only Texans player who feels like a life-long representation of the Texans. If we had a Wall Of Honor in Reliant Stadium, where marquee players get their name put up and you're sitting in your seats during the game and you look up and see "Greatest Texans of All Time" up on the sides of sections of Reliant Stadium...it's Andre Johnson #80. Period.

Do you let that guy walk? Do you look at him and tell him "We can't pay you anymore. Time to own and manage your own car dealership franchise, or go find a new team"? Gonna' be verrrry hard to make AJ move on.

It's a day I don't want to see, and I have a feeling that it's not too far off. It's definitely a water shed moment for the Texans. They have a top notch guy, a face of the franchise, a guy who has earned everything and then some, and yet we're nearing the end. This is the part of football I hate. Seriously.

infantrycak
07-31-2012, 09:33 AM
And you have to select the right person at that spot *cough*RememberCharles Rodgers*cough* so the better route is through free agency.

All evidence to the contrary. Look through the the top 20 receivers. Unless I missed one NONE were obtained through free agency. There is Wes Welker who Miami traded because they were stupid and didn't know how to use the undersized WR (and had no QB) and there is Brandon Marshall who has twice been traded despite 5 straight 80 reception seasons because he is such a head case. The only arguable #1 WR I can think of obtained through free agency is Vincent Jackson and once again that was due to an irreparable relationship.

Dutchrudder
07-31-2012, 09:36 AM
All evidence to the contrary. Look through the the top 20 receivers. Unless I missed one NONE were obtained through free agency. There is Wes Welker who Miami traded because they were stupid and didn't know how to use the undersized WR (and had no QB) and there is Brandon Marshall who has twice been traded despite 5 straight 80 reception seasons because he is such a head case. The only arguable #1 WR I can think of obtained through free agency is Vincent Jackson and once again that was due to an irreparable relationship.

Victor Cruz - Undrafted Free Agent

:fingergun:

Porky
07-31-2012, 09:39 AM
Why is this even up for discussion? I've got more chance of being named Romney's running mate. Ain't gonna happen. Let's get back to a real subject shall we instead of playing in fantasy land.

/end thread. :kitten:

steelbtexan
07-31-2012, 10:22 AM
He still has a good amount of signing bonus and restructure money left on his deal. Trading him would accelerate all of that to the current year, and hamstring our chances of re-signing Schaub, Barwin and Brown. AJ needs to stay on the books for at least two more years, unless he plans on retiring, or he needs to do a minimum deal extension and restructure to spread out the next few years of salary.

I'm not saying we can't keep AJ as it stands right now, but his contract is going to hurt the team in a year or two to the point that we may have to let some of our better up and coming talent go.

Thanks Dutch,

Re-signing Schaub may be the least of the Texans problems if he hurts his foot again.

I get what you're saying about AJ. Looks like the Texans are going to be in a pickle for the next couple of yrs.

BTW Dutch, what do you think of the Texans cap guy/management? Who is their cap guy?

False Start
07-31-2012, 10:26 AM
I'm gonna start a "Mila Kunis to my bedroom petition" thread. It has about as much of a chance of happening as the Texans getting a big name WR.

Dutchrudder
07-31-2012, 10:57 AM
Thanks Dutch,

Re-signing Schaub may be the least of the Texans problems if he hurts his foot again.

I get what you're saying about AJ. Looks like the Texans are going to be in a pickle for the next couple of yrs.

BTW Dutch, what do you think of the Texans cap guy/management? Who is their cap guy?

The Texans' "cap guru" (every team has one) is Chris Olsen.

http://prod.static.texans.clubs.nfl.com//assets/images/imported/HOU/person-assets/front-office/chris_olsen.jpg

Chris Olsen enters his fourth season with the Texans and first as the teamís vice president of football administration. He spent 13 years working at the NFL league office in New York. Olsenís primary responsibility with the Texans is to work closely with general manager Rick Smith on negotiating player contracts and managing the salary cap.

Olsen served as the manager of labor operations with the NFL Management Council from 1999-2006. He was responsible for reviewing and analyzing player contracts to ensure teams were in compliance with the Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) and salary cap. He provided assistance to club executives pertaining to player-related areas of the CBA. He also served as a League liaison to the NFL Players Association regarding player contract matters. In addition, he served as a national game representative and as an instant replay communicator.

...
http://www.houstontexans.com/team/staff/chris-olsen/60032eb8-d2f1-471d-9902-4842f91a411d


Honestly, it's hard to say how good cap management is per team because we really don't know all the numbers, nor do we know what other teams are offering the guys we sign. Last year I thought we would have a ton of cap space going into the offseason due to Mario's expiring deal, but it turned out to be a lot less due to contract escalators and wrongly reported contract numbers for other players. I think you need to evaluate each deal as the information is given to really gauge how well they are managing the cap.

The one that has stuck out to me is Winston, because they could have traded his 2 years 9 million non-guaranteed deal to anyone. Instead they cut him for nothing and then he signed a 4 year 22 million dollar deal. It makes no sense to me at all that they couldn't find a trade partner or that they were in a position where they were forced to cut him that day due to cap constraints. That's not very good planning IMO.

The Demeco trade made sense to me, we needed to bite the bullet and take the cap**** so that we can re-sign Brown, Barwin and/or Schaub. Letting guys like Jason Allen and Brisiel walk are the right decisions. Resigning Foster to a competitive deal was a good move, resigning Myers was a good move. The cap considerations for both of them seem reasonable given their talent levels. The Manning and JJo deals seem very reasonable too.

The biggest cap concerns on the books right now are AJ's contract starting next year and Antonio Smith's contract. AJ's not going anywhere for a while because he has something like 10-12 million in restructure bonus money to be paid out. Moving him would wreck the cap next year. Smith will likely be cut or traded next year to save on his 6 million dollar salary, but will still be paid 2.5 million in unpaid signing bonus. It's a good amount of savings though, and he seems replaceable to me. If it comes down to Barwin OR Smith, I choose Barwin.

I don't think the Texans' cap management is bad per se, but it's not perfect. There is always room for improvement, but if I had to guess I would say the Texans' would be in the top 12 when it comes to cap management. What I really want to see from them this year is the re-signing of Duane Brown for about $10 million a year for 5-7 years, and have that franchise tag available to use on to Schaub or Barwin. That to me would be some cap-fu negotiating magic if they can get Brown for that much and still re-sign one of the other two. If they work a deal to keep all three, barring a collosal injury to one of them, then they will become masters of the cap universe IMO.

steelbtexan
07-31-2012, 10:30 PM
The Texans' "cap guru" (every team has one) is Chris Olsen.

http://prod.static.texans.clubs.nfl.com//assets/images/imported/HOU/person-assets/front-office/chris_olsen.jpg


http://www.houstontexans.com/team/staff/chris-olsen/60032eb8-d2f1-471d-9902-4842f91a411d


Honestly, it's hard to say how good cap management is per team because we really don't know all the numbers, nor do we know what other teams are offering the guys we sign. Last year I thought we would have a ton of cap space going into the offseason due to Mario's expiring deal, but it turned out to be a lot less due to contract escalators and wrongly reported contract numbers for other players. I think you need to evaluate each deal as the information is given to really gauge how well they are managing the cap.

The one that has stuck out to me is Winston, because they could have traded his 2 years 9 million non-guaranteed deal to anyone. Instead they cut him for nothing and then he signed a 4 year 22 million dollar deal. It makes no sense to me at all that they couldn't find a trade partner or that they were in a position where they were forced to cut him that day due to cap constraints. That's not very good planning IMO.

The Demeco trade made sense to me, we needed to bite the bullet and take the cap**** so that we can re-sign Brown, Barwin and/or Schaub. Letting guys like Jason Allen and Brisiel walk are the right decisions. Resigning Foster to a competitive deal was a good move, resigning Myers was a good move. The cap considerations for both of them seem reasonable given their talent levels. The Manning and JJo deals seem very reasonable too.

The biggest cap concerns on the books right now are AJ's contract starting next year and Antonio Smith's contract. AJ's not going anywhere for a while because he has something like 10-12 million in restructure bonus money to be paid out. Moving him would wreck the cap next year. Smith will likely be cut or traded next year to save on his 6 million dollar salary, but will still be paid 2.5 million in unpaid signing bonus. It's a good amount of savings though, and he seems replaceable to me. If it comes down to Barwin OR Smith, I choose Barwin.

I don't think the Texans' cap management is bad per se, but it's not perfect. There is always room for improvement, but if I had to guess I would say the Texans' would be in the top 12 when it comes to cap management. What I really want to see from them this year is the re-signing of Duane Brown for about $10 million a year for 5-7 years, and have that franchise tag available to use on to Schaub or Barwin. That to me would be some cap-fu negotiating magic if they can get Brown for that much and still re-sign one of the other two. If they work a deal to keep all three, barring a collosal injury to one of them, then they will become masters of the cap universe IMO.

Thanks for the reply

MSR

This is the most indepth analysis I've seen of the Texans past cap screwups/good moves they've made and a look at the future cap health/problems.

I wonder what BoB/Rick/Gary will do if Schaub only plays 10 games this yr?

badboy
07-31-2012, 10:38 PM
I'm gonna start a "Mila Kunis to my bedroom petition" thread. It has about as much of a chance of happening as the Texans getting a big name WR.If we can get an accurate guage of your cap space, maybe we can start a thread about you Mila.