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View Full Version : Who ends next season with more sacks Barwin or Average MaIRo?


Big Lou
03-16-2012, 11:44 PM
Now that Average Mario has moved on, who ends next season with more sacks, him or Barwin?

Although I don't blame Mario for pulling a "Rod Tidwell", I am a little bitter about him leaving.

Corrosion
03-16-2012, 11:49 PM
Nothing average about Mario - Dude's one of the best in the NFL at his position.

Im not bitter about him leaving .... He said it wasnt about the money , but when it was all said and done , Barfallo just threw too much money at him to turn down. $50m guaranteed .... wow.


Who do I think will end up with more sacks (should they both stay healthy)? I'll go with Barwin due to the scheme.

Rey
03-16-2012, 11:49 PM
Barwin...Mario is no longer on the team...I could care less about him at this point...Barwin is the f'n man...

Ryan
03-16-2012, 11:53 PM
Now that Average Mario has moved on, who ends next season with more sacks, him or Barwin?

Although I don't blame Mario for pulling a "Rod Tidwell", I am a little bitter about him leaving.

Watt and Antonio are gonna tear it up and free up alot of stuff for Barwin so i'll vote for Barwin.

Thorn
03-16-2012, 11:56 PM
Watt and Antonio are gonna tear it up and free up alot of stuff for Barwin so i'll vote for Barwin.

Agreed.

XI CMURDER IX
03-17-2012, 12:02 AM
I'm going with Mario, just because Barwin can't match his physical skill. It will take more of a collective effort on defense, and I expect the sacks to be almost even around. Mario in the 4-3 defense though, if he is fully healthy, and actually "wants" to play. There would be almost no stopping him.

Carr Bombed
03-17-2012, 12:18 AM
I'm going with Mario, just because Barwin can't match his physical skill. It will take more of a collective effort on defense, and I expect the sacks to be almost even around. Mario in the 4-3 defense though, if he is fully healthy, and actually "wants" to play. There would be almost no stopping him.

I'm going to go with Mario as well, just for the simple reason that he won't have to deal with the competition at multiple levels of the defense that Barwin will (Cushing, Reed, Watt, and Smith)... but I don't think you ca say Barwin can't match Mario's physical talent... The only thing Mario has over Barwin is outright strength. Mario can't beat him in technique, speed, and his motor... which is why Barwin in his first season at his natural NFL position already holds the Texan record for the single game sack total.

Both Barwin and Watt had greater single game dominant performances than Mario ever had as a Texan. Mario's greatest performance was against the Broncos years ago.. Barwin's performance against the Jags and Watts performance against the Colts, despite a loss, was MUCH better than any effort Williams ever trotted out. Speaking of Watt.. he actually eclipses Mario in strength and physical talent..as well as a much higher motor. He's the guy I'd lock up for that type of money. The fact that you actually had to type if Mario "actually wants to play" after signing that type of contract only further illustrates on who expensive a guy like J.J. Watt will cost in the future.

Screw Williams... Watt is the guy who we need to be clearing cap space for whenever he's due up for a new contract. He's well worth a LOT more than Mario Williams was... he actually has a knack for coming up big in big games. In fact this thread very well could be called.. "who ends next season with more sacks, J.J. Watt or Mario Williams".

Mr teX
03-17-2012, 12:21 AM
Should've added Reed to the poll..he's got just as good a shot as Barwin imo; Just never been a fan of the Barwin pick. But since you only put Barwin, i'll go with mario.

Barwin wouldn't have gotten to double digit sacks last year if it weren't for Blaine Gabbert & that atrocious as offense of theirs.

Mr teX
03-17-2012, 12:22 AM
I'm going to go with Mario as well, just for the simple reason that he won't have to deal with the competition at multiple levels of the defense that Barwin will (Cushing, Reed, Watt, and Smith)... but it's silly to say Barwin can't match Mario's physical talent... The only thing Mario has over Barwin is outright strength. Mario can't beat him in technique, speed, and his motor... which is why Barwin in his first season at his natural NFL position already holds the Texan record for the single game sack total.

Both Barwin and Watt had greater single game dominant performances than Mario ever had as a Texan. Mario's greatest performance was against the Broncos years ago.. Barwin's performance against the Jags and Watts performance against the Colts, despite a loss, was MUCH better than any effort Williams ever trotted out. Speaking of Watt.. he actually eclipses Mario in strength and physical talent..as well as a much higher motor. He's the guy I'd lock up for that type of money.

Screw Williams... Watt is the guy who we need to be clearling cap space for whenever he's due up for a new contract. He's well worth a LOT more than Mario Williams was... he actually has a knack for coming up big in big games. In fact this thread very well could be called.. "who ends next season with more sacks, J.J. Watt or Mario Williams".

complete garbage...

Carr Bombed
03-17-2012, 12:28 AM
complete garbage...

What part...

My post or your infatuation with Mario Williams?



Mario Williams signing in Buffalo is simply R.I.P Mario Williams...

He just joined the NFL witness protection program. He isn't the type of player who can elevate a crappy team to any type of success... god knows he couldn't do that here. :)

Corrosion
03-17-2012, 12:36 AM
CB you arent entitled to your opinion. The govt stole that from you and gave it to Mr Tex. :smiliepalm:

Mr teX
03-17-2012, 12:37 AM
What part...

My post or your infatuation with Mario Williams?

your whole post....Barwin & Mario on the same level physical talent wise?....:ok:

Neither of them are technicians so i don't know where in the hell you come up with Barwin having better technique....Especially when Barwin hasn't even been on the field for 2 full seasons at OLB to show this better technique at his "natural" NFL position.

why don't you do this, see who lines up to drop 100 million at Barwin's feet next year.

& yeah Barwin holds the single game sack record..pretty impressive against a team with a god awful offense & qb......:smiliepalm:

Norg
03-17-2012, 12:42 AM
Barwin will get more Teams will be doubling mario thats not to say teams will double barwin has well but IMO in a 3-4 u have a better chance of getting more sacks IMO

Carr Bombed
03-17-2012, 12:43 AM
CB you aren't entitled to your opinion. The govt stole that from you and gave it to Mr Tex. :smiliepalm:

LOL, tell me about it...

I mean I only threw about 3 paragraphs of "opinions" out there and he chimes in with two words??? That's either being lazy or cowardly. If you're going to criticize my post (and opinion)...atleast offer some type of view point and actual criticism... if not, then don't bother responding. :rolleyes:

Rey
03-17-2012, 12:46 AM
Should've added Reed to the poll..he's got just as good a shot as Barwin imo; Just never been a fan of the Barwin pick. But since you only put Barwin, i'll go with mario.

I disagree with all of that.

Reed is not on Barwin's level quite yet...

Barwin is a damn fine pass rusher...

Carr Bombed
03-17-2012, 12:57 AM
your whole post....Barwin & Mario on the same level physical talent wise?....:ok:

Neither of them are technicians so i don't know where in the hell you come up with Barwin having better technique....Especially when Barwin hasn't even been on the field for 2 full seasons at OLB to show this better technique at his "natural" NFL position.

why don't you do this, see who lines up to drop 100 million at Barwin's feet next year.

& yeah Barwin holds the single game sack record..pretty impressive against a team with a god awful offense & qb......:smiliepalm:

LMAO... like Mario didn't face god awful QBs during his 6 year career :mariopalm:

And I hate to break this to you... but Barwin is a WAY much more refined technician than Mario has ever been or ever will be... Barwin had better pass rushing moves and actually uses his hands way better than Mario ever has, even when Barwin played on the college level as a player who switched over from offense. :rolleyes:

He's a more refined pass rusher, who can beat you in multiple ways (hence not just by bull rushing, who gets pushed to the outside when he does try to speed rush :rolleyes:). When Mario lines up against a tackle who can handle his bull rush, he's shut down... while Barwin can put a move on them and spin around them and actually cut inside.

Barwin doesn't have the size of Mario, but you're kidding and straight lying to yourself if you don't think he can beat a tackle more ways that Mario can. Mario is a one trick pony. He's put up numbers.. yes, but what exactly (team/defensive success) have they equated to? Tell me that... what the hell has Mario done for this team or this defense since he's been here? What part of Mario's game tells you he's worth 100 mil.? and I don't give a crap if Barwin would demand a 100 million dollar contract or not, because no way in hell would I ever offer Mario that type of money either. A few years from now, Bills fans will be cursing this contract and I'm glad it wasn't us who signed it.

Mr teX
03-17-2012, 01:00 AM
I disagree with all of that.

Reed is not on Barwin's level quite yet...

Barwin is a damn fine pass rusher...

I agree with everything you said....but the key word in all of what you said is the bolded..."yet".


Barwin is a good pass rusher but i can't envision him just taking over games like i can Reed.

and when you consider that Reed notched 6 in his rookie season basically just using his god given talents blowing by guys...having no real IQ for the NFL yet....

Put it like this, I could easily see Wade sliding Reed back to WOLB going into next year if Reed shows even the slightest bit of growth. from last year.

Corrosion
03-17-2012, 01:03 AM
When you consider who might have the most sacks between MW and Barwin - You have to look at everything around them as well.

Barwin has Antonio Smith and JJ Watt wreaking havoc between him and Reed .... He has Cushing wrecking people in the middle. And .... he has the advantage of Wade Phillips.


What does MW have in Barfalo ? Dave Wannstedt and .... Marcell Dareus switching to a 4-3.



Advantage Barwin.

Carr Bombed
03-17-2012, 01:18 AM
I agree with everything you said....but the key word in all of what you said is the bolded..."yet".


Barwin is a good pass rusher but i can't envision him just taking over games like i can Reed.

and when you consider that Reed notched 6 in his rookie season basically just using his god given talents blowing by guys...having no real IQ for the NFL yet....

Put it like this, I could easily see Wade sliding Reed back to WOLB going into next year if Reed shows even the slightest bit of growth. from last year.

This is coming from one of Reed's biggest fans (which is the reason why I never shed a tear over Mario Williams from the second he went down to injury and has now left)...

What exactly do you have against a player who notched 11.5 sacks in only his second full season while playing a new position? You act like Barwin is a finished product or something and he's not. The guy was productive as a rookie too, despite being considered a project... He had to sit out pretty much his entire sohpmore season in the league due to injury, had to move to a new position (yes his natural NFL positon is OLB) and threw up 11.5 sacks year one at that position. Why do you hate the guy? and why do you give Reed props for "having no NFL I.Q" when he played his entire college career on defense... while Barwin only played one single season on that side of the ball? Like he was some expert at NFL defensive schemes when he came into the league :rolleyes:

Seriously in the above post, you try to pimp Reed's (a player that I am EXTREMELY high on) 6 sacks during his rookie season, a season where he started 11 freaking games... yet when Barwin was able to post 4.5 sacks as a rookie, despite starting 0 games and posted the SAME EXACT sack total that Mario posted in 16 starts as a rookie... that gets no mention??? what gives?

So 11 less starts and only 1.5 less sacks than Reed isn't worth mentioning??? I guess matching Mario's rookie sack total in 16 less starts ins't worth mentioning as well either huh? :headhurts:

msbbc833
03-17-2012, 01:31 AM
More importantly. Are we going to find a better NT to replace Cody?

Mr teX
03-17-2012, 01:36 AM
This is coming from one of Reed's biggest fans (which is the reason why I never shed a tear over Mario Williams from the second he went down to injury and has now left)...

What exactly do you have against a player who notched 11.5 sacks in only his second full season while playing a new position? You act like Barwin is a finished product or something and he's not. The guy was productive as a rookie too, despite being considered a project... He had to sit out pretty much his entire sohpmore season in the league due to injury, had to move to a new position (yes his natural NFL positon is OLB) and threw up 11.5 sacks year one at that position. Why do you hate the guy? and why do you give Reed props for "having no NFL I.Q" when he played his entire college career on defense... while Barwin only played one single season on that side of the ball? Like he was some expert at NFL defensive schemes when he came into the league :rolleyes:

Seriously in the above post, you try to pimp Reed's (a player that I am EXTREMELY high on) 6 sacks during his rookie season, a season where he started 11 freaking games... yet when Barwin was able to post 4.5 sacks as a rookie, despite starting 0 games and posted the SAME EXACT sack total that Mario posted in 16 starts as a rookie... that gets no mention??? what gives?

So 11 less starts and only 1.5 less sacks than Reed isn't worth mentioning??? I guess matching Mario's rookie sack total in 16 less starts ins't worth mentioning as well either huh? :headhurts:


i'll leave the mario thing alone so as not to derail yet another thread.

But with Reed & Barwin, it's just an eye test thing...everything else falls in behind that.

There's just nothing that jumps out to me about Barwin & what he does. Last year he was basically making zero impact....until he switched over to WOLB when mario went down.

Meanwhile Reed comes in, shows exceptional burst coming off the edge & was leading the team in sacks 1/2 way through the season despite not starting the 1st 5. Only until Barwin was switched to WOLB & got that layup game against Jax did he overtake Reed.

Then in the playoffs, Reed not Barwin was the guy of the 2 who was making the most noise. He just looks more natural as a pass rusher out there & that's not something that is taught but learned over years of doing it. & by NFL IQ i just meant getting a feel for the NFL speed and things NFL teams do to cross you up.......things you can only learn by actually playing in the game on this level. Barwin obviously had more of that going into the season than Reed & yet Reed was able to hold his own despite him switching positions midway through the season. Tough on both of them for sure, but that much tougher for reed just b/c he's a rookie.

This is why i called you out on the technique thing. Barwin hasn't played enough at the position to have shown better technique than mario as both guys were new to the position. His rookie season he was obviously raw, 2nd season he didn't play, this 3rd season he showed what he could do, but at no point did i see a guy who showed this great technique you're talking about. When did he develop this in rehab in 2010 lol.

Barwin = can do alot of things well...= athlete
Mario/Reed = talented pass rushers and pass rushing = a talent that if developed properly can put you as the very best in the game. I can't see that with Barwin.

you don't necessarily have to be 1 to be the other. The 2 can be mutually exclusive.

Carr Bombed
03-17-2012, 01:45 AM
i'll leave the Mario thing alone so as not to derail yet another thread.

But with Reed & Barwin, it's just an eye test thing...everything else falls in behind that.

Like I said...I'm EXTREMELY HIGH on Reed.. Truth be told, I think he has a higher ceiling than Barwin.. He can do everything Barwin can do. He can match his speed and has a greater pass rush pedigree entering the league (much more strength and bullrush ability).. and I think he's much more instinctive.. Playing his entire career as a college pass rusher will serve him well and gives him a upper hand over Barwin, but that's no knock on Barwin. My praise of Barwin isn't a knock against Reed..I'm simply giving Barwin his due. I was ecstatic when we drafted Reed and we hit a home run when we drafted him... I just feel we also hit a homerun with Barwin as well.

The most impressive thing I saw with Reed wasn't his run defense (which was EXCELLENT) or his pass rushing skills (which was EXCELLENT)... it was his fumble recoveries... This kid is going to be our "clean up player" and is "that guy" who'll always have his nose around the ball. People need to get the hell over Mario Williams (I was well over him before the season even ended). He's gone and we have more than enough to replace him with. He have scrappers and scrapers, mallers and ballers.. expect another top 3 round pick being spent at the front 7 and he'll be scary as well... In Wade we trust.

Corrosion
03-17-2012, 02:10 AM
More importantly. Are we going to find a better NT to replace Cody?

:smiliepalm:


Cody has been their most consistent DL over the past two seasons - He's not a world beater but he's a bargin at his current pricetag.

They also have Earl Mitchell behind him and he was improving as the season wore on.

How bout they solve their OL issues and upgrade the WR spot before looking to replace a guy who's done nothing but produce .... Or are you Ok with Shelley Smith @ OG? (You heard it here first).

Carr Bombed
03-17-2012, 02:14 AM
i'll leave the mario thing alone so as not to derail yet another thread.

But with Reed & Barwin, it's just an eye test thing...everything else falls in behind that.

There's just nothing that jumps out to me about Barwin & what he does. Last year he was basically making zero impact....until he switched over to WOLB when mario went down.

Meanwhile Reed comes in, shows exceptional burst coming off the edge & was leading the team in sacks 1/2 way through the season despite not starting the 1st 5. Only until Barwin was switched to WOLB & got that layup game against Jax did he overtake Reed.

Then in the playoffs, Reed not Barwin was the guy of the 2 who was making the most noise. He just looks more natural as a pass rusher out there & that's not something that is taught but learned over years of doing it. & by NFL IQ i just meant getting a feel for the NFL speed and things NFL teams do to cross you up.......things you can only learn by actually playing in the game on this level. Barwin obviously had more of that going into the season than Reed & yet Reed was able to hold his own despite him switching positions midway through the season. Tough on both of them for sure, but that much tougher for reed just b/c he's a rookie.

This is why i called you out on the technique thing. Barwin hasn't played enough at the position to have shown better technique than mario as both guys were new to the position. His rookie season he was obviously raw, 2nd season he didn't play, this 3rd season he showed what he could do, but at no point did i see a guy who showed this great technique you're talking about. When did he develop this in rehab in 2010 lol.

Barwin = can do alot of things well...= athlete
Mario/Reed = talented pass rushers and pass rushing = a talent that if developed properly can put you as the very best in the game. I can't see that with Barwin.

you don't necessarily have to be 1 to be the other. The 2 can be mutually exclusive.


WTH... I responded to this post almost a hour ago... If you're going to edit it and completely change it, you might as well post a new post...

Mr teX
03-17-2012, 02:23 AM
WTH... I responded to this post almost a hour ago... If you're going to edit it and completely change it, you might as well post a new post...

Lol, not really a change just an addition...lol. I'm tying from my I-pad & sometimes when i'm responding to a post, it'll just close the "reply to thread" box and i have to start my post all over again. So i have to brief at times...but i can take all the time i need when i edit b/c it doesn't seem to close the box unexpectedly when i edit my posts.

DocBar
03-17-2012, 02:35 AM
Am I the only one that thinks Mario is no great shakes as a passrusher? The biggest thing Mario has ever shown is potential. That's not all bad, as it's netted him a cool $100 mil but it's not all that great for the team that has to pay him.

Carr Bombed
03-17-2012, 02:41 AM
edit

kingh99
03-17-2012, 03:17 AM
Mario Williams went to a team running a 4-3 in need of a DE. People said he was mispositioned here and by his decision, they were right.

As far as Barwin, Reed and Watt, they are all strong and, hopefully getting stronger.

kingh99
03-17-2012, 03:37 AM
I noticed this a lot with Watt and Reed. Compared to Williams, Watt and Reed do not try and bury their shoulder into the blocker and engage in a physical shoving match. Instead they stay upright, and distance themselves from the blocker using their hands to keep the blocker away and using their leverage and quick feet to beat their man one on one. Mario is all about the edge power dip your shoulder and engage the blocker body to body. Frankly he became boring to watch some games because the blocker was able to push him out of the play and he never adjusted.

It's a case of quickness and balance being > strength and balance. Also, I don't recall Mario doing much with stunts. Guys like Reed and Barwin are quick enough to do shifts Williams couldn't.

Corrosion
03-17-2012, 04:19 AM
Mario Williams went to a team running a 4-3 in need of a DE. People said he was mispositioned here and by his decision, they were right.

As far as Barwin, Reed and Watt, they are all strong and, hopefully getting stronger.

I seriously doubt the position change back to a 4-3 DE had much if anything at all to do with the decision to load up the Brinks Truck in Barfalo. They gave him $50m guaranteed reasons ..... :headhurts:

infantrycak
03-17-2012, 11:44 AM
Am I the only one that thinks Mario is no great shakes as a passrusher?

I am going to have to say yes you and a few other hyper-critical Houstonians are being unrealistic. There is a reason several teams were lined up to make him the highest paid defensive player in the league. Before making a $100 mil decision these professionals were going back looking at all sorts of film focusing on Mario. They didn't decide to pursue a "no great shakes" pass rusher.

steelbtexan
03-17-2012, 11:54 AM
Now that Average Mario has moved on, who ends next season with more sacks, him or Barwin?

Although I don't blame Mario for pulling a "Rod Tidwell", I am a little bitter about him leaving.

Barwin

MW will only be healthy for about 6-8 games.

Although he will play in 12-16 games

Playoffs
03-17-2012, 11:55 AM
I am going to have to say yes you and a few other hyper-critical Houstonians are being unrealistic. There is a reason several teams were lined up to make him the highest paid defensive player in the league. Before making a $100 mil decision these professionals were going back looking at all sorts of film focusing on Mario. They didn't decide to pursue a "no great shakes" pass rusher.Yep.

Put Barwin & Mario on Free Agent list -- Mario got $100 million; Barwin wouldn't come close to that, and he's younger.

leebigeztx
03-17-2012, 12:09 PM
When you consider who might have the most sacks between MW and Barwin - You have to look at everything around them as well.

Barwin has Antonio Smith and JJ Watt wreaking havoc between him and Reed .... He has Cushing wrecking people in the middle. And .... he has the advantage of Wade Phillips.


What does MW have in Barfalo ? Dave Wannstedt and .... Marcell Dareus switching to a 4-3.



Advantage Barwin.


So you're saying that wannstedt isn't as successful dc as wade? Say what you want about both as head coaches, but go look at wanstedd at dallas,chicago,and miami and tell me about his defense. He knows defense and the bills have 2 studs in the middle and now mario outside. Not to mention,they will be playing with a lot of leads too. If healthy and that's a big if, I think mario is going to have 14+ sacks. If barwin is healthy, I think he'll be at least 10. All this technician and pass rush blah,blah,blah, if anyone would've though barwin was as good as mario with his physical talent,he wouldn't have went in the 2nd rd. I like barwin and I've always thought of him as a joker at olb because of his te stuff. He's going to get better,but as usual poster talking bs when it comes to mario.

ObsiWan
03-17-2012, 12:19 PM
I am unclear/confused/befuddled as to why we would care how many sacks Mario gets next season and why we should compare his numbers to Barwin's ...or any other Texan player's numbers for that matter...

Is off-season THAT boring??
:D

drunkcookie
03-17-2012, 12:23 PM
Mario will have more sacks than Barwin I think (esspecially if he he stays healthy... and let's hope Barwin does as well), but Barwin will play in at least three more games...

TejasTom
03-17-2012, 12:24 PM
He said it wasnt about the money...

No, it was about the wings!

... He isn't the type of player who can elevate a crappy team to any type of success... god knows he couldn't do that here. :)

There was the time that he, uh, uh...
No wait it was the game against, uh, uh...
Surely you remember when he dominated, uh, uh...

infantrycak
03-17-2012, 12:36 PM
... He isn't the type of player who can elevate a crappy team to any type of success... god knows he couldn't do that here. :)

Name me the DEs who have elevated crappy teams to success all on their own. Are the Colts a crappy team without Freeney or without Manning? Did Charles Haley make the early '90s Cowboys or was it Aikman, Smith, Irwin, Novacek, Johnson, Sanders, Norton, etc.?

GlassHalfFull
03-17-2012, 12:49 PM
i am unclear/confused/befuddled as to why we would care how many sacks mario gets next season and why we should compare his numbers to barwin's ...or any other texan player's numbers for that matter...

is off-season that boring??
:d

yes

mussop
03-17-2012, 01:14 PM
Barwin hands down! Mario is so screwed! He thinks he has faced so much adversity already. Hahahahaha, guess what Mario, you are the 100 million dollar man now. You better stay healthy and produce or you will be eatin alive. The kiddie gloves are off now.

He no longer has the excuses that he is a rookie or that he is still in a learning curve or that he has bad coaching. It's swim or sink time. He just doesn't have the personality for what he is about to get into. He isn't a bigtime game changer and never will be. People in buffalo are expecting Bruce Smith and instead they are getting a better than average super athlete who will make one or two real good plays a game but very seldom when you need them.

I like Mario and hope he does well but don't see it happening.

buddyboy
03-17-2012, 01:28 PM
Honestly, I feel like those who picked Mario either a) are homers, or b) believe Mario will get injured.

I understand where argument b comes from. He's had a history of injuries, and if he does get injured (even if it's not IR, just one of those nagging ones he always has), then Barwin has a good chance of winning out.

But if Mario stays healthy, I dont think Barwin has much of a chance. Another thing you'd have to hope for is that Barwin will improve, not regress. He's had one good season, no telling if that's a trend or an oddity.

thunderkyss
03-17-2012, 02:41 PM
Barwin...Mario is no longer on the team...I could care less about him at this point...Barwin is the f'n man...

I'm good with Mario leaving the team, but I'm no fool to think Barwin will lead the league in sacks. He's just not that kind of athlete.

Not that I think Mario will lead the league in sacks, just saying I'm sure there will be plenty of players who will have more sacks than Barwin.

For the second time in his career, Mario will have teammates that will prevent QBs from stepping up into the pocket with ease. Last time that was the case, Mario averaged 1 sack per game.

Even though this scheme will lift Barwin above his own ability, he is no Demarcus Ware, no Shawn Merriman.

Watt is going to have to be our primary hell raiser, Barwin, Smith, & Reed are merely role players.

thunderkyss
03-17-2012, 02:47 PM
Screw Williams... Watt is the guy who we need to be clearing cap space for whenever he's due up for a new contract. He's well worth a LOT more than Mario Williams was... he actually has a knack for coming up big in big games. In fact this thread very well could be called.. "who ends next season with more sacks, J.J. Watt or Mario Williams".

Ridiculous. A 3-4 DE will never command $16M/yr

Carr Bombed
03-17-2012, 04:21 PM
Name me the DEs who have elevated crappy teams to success all on their own. Are the Colts a crappy team without Freeney or without Manning? Did Charles Haley make the early '90s Cowboys or was it Aikman, Smith, Irwin, Novacek, Johnson, Sanders, Norton, etc.?

Reggie White for one... and the Bills went to 4 straight SBs with Bruce Smith.

But all of that isn't even the point that I was trying to make. I'm not even talking about total team success... I was talking about just the defensive side of the ball. During the time that Mario played here, he never elevated Houston into being a top defense of even a top pass rushing team. People may not want to hear it, but it's the truth.. That guy disappeared when it mattered most and no way in hell is he worth 100 million dollars...glad to see him go to be honest and J.J. Watt is MUCH better. Glad we didn't waste the cap space on him. The knock on him coming out of college was his motor and he definitely lived up to that criticism.

Like I said... he just joined the NFL witness protection program and R.I.P. Mario Williams.. you won't hear much from him from hear on out except when he's padding his stats after teams have already ran up the score on the Bills.

Carr Bombed
03-17-2012, 04:23 PM
Ridiculous. A 3-4 DE will never command $16M/yr

Umm, I never said Watt would get "16 m/yr" did I? I strictly said Watt is worth more than Mario Williams... because he's a MUCH better player and plays big in big games. J.J. Watt is >>> than Mario Williams. and in case you missed it, I said Mario isn't nearly worth the contract that he just signed... no player is worth that type of money. Any Texan (outside of a HOF caliber QB) who even attempts to demand that type of contract promptly needs to be shown the door and the only mistake Houston made was they didn't do it sooner. They wasted valuable FA time chasing after Mario. However kudos to them for not tying their rope to the anchor that is Mario Williams' contract...

thunderkyss
03-17-2012, 04:36 PM
Umm, I never said Watt would get "16 m/yr" did I? I strictly said Watt is worth more than Mario Williams... because he's a MUCH better player and plays big in big games. J.J. Watt is >>> than Mario Williams. and in case you missed it, I said Mario isn't nearly worth the contract that he just signed... no player is worth that type of money. Any Texan (outside of a HOF caliber QB) who even attempts to demand that type of contract promptly needs to be shown the door and the only mistake Houston made was they didn't do it sooner. They wasted valuable FA time chasing after Mario. However kudos to them for not tying their rope to the anchor that is Mario Williams' contract...

Well, let me put it to you this way.

NO one will "accidentally" give Jj Watt $16M/yr.

Carr Bombed
03-17-2012, 04:42 PM
Honestly, I feel like those who picked Mario either a) are homers, or b) believe Mario will get injured.

I understand where argument b comes from. He's had a history of injuries, and if he does get injured (even if it's not IR, just one of those nagging ones he always has), then Barwin has a good chance of winning out.

But if Mario stays healthy, I dont think Barwin has much of a chance. Another thing you'd have to hope for is that Barwin will improve, not regress. He's had one good season, no telling if that's a trend or an oddity.

I'm going to assume you meant to say Barwin... and if that's the case, how the heck does that make people who picked Barwin homers?

LOL... Do you guys even realize that Mario Williams hasn't had a double digit sack season since the 2008 season? Do y'all even realize that in Mario's 6 year career he's only finished with double digit sack seasons twice? :kubepalm:

Seriously... all Barwin has to do is do what he did last year (which is have a double digit sack season) and he stands a very realistic chance at winning this debate. People need to get off the Mario Williams fluffer train.. the guy isn't the bee's knees and he didn't rope the moon either... he's VERY replaceable and Barwin can easily have a better season than him and it doesn't make someone a "homer" for saying as much... It just makes them people who have a different opinion than you. (BTW.. this is coming from someone who voted for Mario in this poll)

Carr Bombed
03-17-2012, 04:43 PM
Well, let me put it to you this way.

NO one will "accidentally" give Jj Watt $16M/yr.

Great... That bodes well for us then, that means we'll be able to lock up a player who's >>> than Mario Williams and a player who's on the field play is >>> and worth more than Mario Williams. :doot:

infantrycak
03-17-2012, 05:36 PM
Reggie White for one... and the Bills went to 4 straight SBs with Bruce Smith.

But all of that isn't even the point that I was trying to make. I'm not even talking about total team success... I was talking about just the defensive side of the ball.

Yeah and you are making a joke of your point. You pick two of the greatest DEs in NFL history and with neither can you seriously assert they single handed lifted a bad D to prominence. Yeah, the Bills went four straight times to the SB - how many did they win? In the end who had the better D, them or the Cowboys? Remember the names of the Cowboys' DEs? Much less that Bills team was renowned for O not D. But for a bone-headed play the Bills would have given up more points in playoff history than any other team. As it was they got 52 hung on them.

Rey
03-17-2012, 07:14 PM
I'm good with Mario leaving the team, but I'm no fool to think Barwin will lead the league in sacks. He's just not that kind of athlete.

I think Mario could have been special with us, but I think he's going to be above average in Buffalo.

Corrosion
03-17-2012, 11:03 PM
Honestly, I feel like those who picked Mario either a) are homers, or b) believe Mario will get injured.

I understand where argument b comes from. He's had a history of injuries, and if he does get injured (even if it's not IR, just one of those nagging ones he always has), then Barwin has a good chance of winning out.

But if Mario stays healthy, I dont think Barwin has much of a chance. Another thing you'd have to hope for is that Barwin will improve, not regress. He's had one good season, no telling if that's a trend or an oddity.

I had a difficult time not picking MW in this poll - He's a hell of a player. It came down to whats around him not being enough. Teams couldnt effectively double team him with the talent surrounding him here. That wont be the case in Barfalo.

thunderkyss
03-17-2012, 11:34 PM
I had a difficult time not picking MW in this poll - He's a hell of a player. It came down to whats around him not being enough. Teams couldnt effectively double team him with the talent surrounding him here. That wont be the case in Barfalo.

With Kyle Williams & Marcell Dareus I think the front 4 will be ok. I worry about their pass defense though.

mussop
03-18-2012, 12:04 AM
by Lance Zierlein
LINK (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2012/03/for-bills-fans-Ė-a-scouting-report-on-mario-williams/)

Mario's weaknesses

Marioís awareness out on the field is average at best and there are times he just doesnít seem to show very good football instincts at all.

While Marioís bull rush is a solid weapon, unfortunately, it has been his primary weapon for most of his career. Despite having some solid defensive line coaches, he has been very slow to add to his pass rush repertoire. There is no excuse for Mario not to have developed a club move as his go-to inside pass rush. Mario doesnít have the footwork to utilize a spin move (Iíve seen him try Ö itís not pretty) so that club move is a must if Mario Williams is ever going to develop a mature outside/inside pass rush attack.

There are questions about how much Mario Williams loves football. He has buddies who he rides (motorcycles) with who seem to believe that football is what he does for a living but it isnít what he loves. That bothers me I think it is important that your core players eat and sleep football and that they love it. Mario has never really been that guy.

Despite having immense physical tools, Mario hasnít really dominated as many games as you would like. Granted, heís been on some defensive lines that have been highly paid but ineffective, but Texans fans simply havenít seen him dominate a game very often. I think a big part of that is mental, too. He has the tools to do it, but he needs to have a fire lit under him from time to time.

Mario is more of a follower than a leader. That is fine if Buffalo has the right leadership on that defensive line, but heís never looked comfortable with the role of being ďthe guy.Ē Even when he had his best seasons in 2007 and 2008, it really had no bearing on the overall play of the defense and there werenít enough teammates raising the level of their play. I think Mario likes to play next to guys who are highly motivated and he takes his cues from that. We saw that this year. If Marcel Dareus can be that Alpha Dog, then there is a good chance that Mario will follow suit. Itís not a necessarily a weakness, but it is somewhat rare with players being paid like Mario.

There are concerns over whether or not Mario Williams can stay healthy. There is a reason that Mario hasnít hit double digits in sacks for three straight years Ė injuries. In 2009, he is said to have had a shoulder injury that he was battling throughout the season. In 2010, Mario had a sports hernia that was an issue from the preseason all the way through the first 13 games. At that point, Williams shut it down and had surgery. In 2011, Mario played in only five games after tearing his pectoral muscle and missing the rest of the season.


To read his list of strengths follow the link at the top.

This is pretty much what I and a few others have been saying all along.

Corrosion
03-18-2012, 12:52 AM
With Kyle Williams & Marcell Dareus I think the front 4 will be ok. I worry about their pass defense though.

Yeah , those corners arent very good .... If QB's are able to get the ball out before the rush gets there , then you dont get many sacks.

I would have liked for MW to stay ..... but man , that contract was just too good to pass up. Wish the guy luck unless he's playing the Texans.

Carr Bombed
03-18-2012, 03:07 AM
Yeah and you are making a joke of your point. You pick two of the greatest DEs in NFL history and with neither can you seriously assert they single handed lifted a bad D to prominence. Yeah, the
given up more points in playoff history than any other team. As it was they got 52 hung on them.
Actually.. I'm not making a joke of my point, if any thing im making a joke of your post. You asked me to list DEs who elevated their team and I did... speaking of which, I can't believe you really disregarded the bills just because they didn't win a SB...after reaching 4 straight.. that's a joke in itself

thunderkyss
03-18-2012, 05:47 AM
I would have liked for MW to stay ..... but man , that contract was just too good to pass up. Wish the guy luck unless he's playing the Texans.

Agreed. I wanted him back as well, but thought it prudent to put a number out there, so it wouldn't look like flip-flopping. I wanted to sign him at $12M/yr, but willing to go as high as $14M/yr. At $14M/yr I would have thought I was over-paying (since I valued him at $12M/yr).

He signed for $16M/yr a figure I said I did not want to pay. I think Rick did good here, however, from the way we have heard it went down, I still don't think he handled it correctly.

thunderkyss
03-18-2012, 05:52 AM
Actually.. I'm not making a joke of my point, if any thing im making a joke of your post. You asked me to list DEs who elevated their team and I did... speaking of which, I can't believe you really disregarded the bills just because they didn't win a SB...after reaching 4 straight.. that's a joke in itself

He asked for two DEs who elevated their team all by their lonesome. You added two great DEs who were parts of great teams.

You did not name a DE with poor safeties, & corners or who had problems getting pressure up the middle. & like Infantrycak said, the Buffalo Bills got to the Super Bowl 4 times on the strength of their offense, not their defense (which gave up 38 points to a Houston team in one half of football & 'cak mentioned that defense giving up 52 to another team).

ckhouston
03-18-2012, 06:38 AM
Next year when the season ends both Barwin and Reed will have better numbers than Mario. Its the scheme, not the man, and Wade is the best in the league period. We do not have to worry about our defense, but we are going into next year exactly where we left off last year, with no legitimate NFL starting QB. Stay tuned ...

Lucky
03-18-2012, 08:41 AM
We do not have to worry about our defense, but we are going into next year exactly where we left off last year, with no legitimate NFL starting QB. Stay tuned ...
Try to stay on topic.

Corrosion
03-18-2012, 08:56 AM
Agreed. I wanted him back as well, but thought it prudent to put a number out there, so it wouldn't look like flip-flopping. I wanted to sign him at $12M/yr, but willing to go as high as $14M/yr. At $14M/yr I would have thought I was over-paying (since I valued him at $12M/yr).

He signed for $16M/yr a figure I said I did not want to pay. I think Rick did good here, however, from the way we have heard it went down, I still don't think he handled it correctly.

How could he have handled it any differently. They made him an offer , he took a significantly better offer .... Had then gone any higher , they would have really been in a bind next season when multiple starters become UFA's.


I believe Smith made his best offer from the get go .... knowing he couldnt go higher and that even this offer would make life difficult going forward should it be accepted.

What better way to handle the situation than to get it out of the way one way or another and move on to the next thing on the agenda?


Try to stay on topic.

The class of 2011 isnt our best. :wadepalm:

Carr Bombed
03-18-2012, 10:59 AM
He asked for two DEs who elevated their team all by their lonesome. You added two great DEs who were parts of great teams.

You did not name a DE with poor safeties, & corners or who had problems getting pressure up the middle. & like Infantrycak said, the Buffalo Bills got to the Super Bowl 4 times on the strength of their offense, not their defense (which gave up 38 points to a Houston team in one half of football & 'cak mentioned that defense giving up 52 to another team).

:kubepalm: You don't get to 4 straight SBs without good defensive play... who cares if they got their doors blown off once they got there and who cares if the Oilers ran up and down the field for one half of football... it's just one half of one game.

He asked me to list some DEs and I did. The Packers sucked for decades, before Favre and before Reggie White signed with that team... they do not win a SB without Reggie White signing with that team.. he ELEVATED that team to a SB and even when he was in Philadelphia he was also the heart and soul of that team. All you're doing is nitpicking small stuff.

And yes I listed two great DEs, are great DEs not allowed in this discussion or something? Mario Williams is now the highest paid defender in NFL history.... He's paid to be a great DE, so I think it's fair to hold him to that standard... a standard that he doesn't measure up to at the current moment.

Nawzer
03-18-2012, 11:05 AM
I honestly think Barwin will have more sacks. Mario will more than likely get injured at some point in the season which will limit his production. Barwin also plays in a system that facilitates sacks. Mario if he can stay healthy should be good and he has a very good d-line to help him, but I just don't see it happening for him.

thunderkyss
03-18-2012, 12:38 PM
[/B]

How could he have handled it any differently. They made him an offer , he took a significantly better offer .... Had then gone any higher , they would have really been in a bind next season when multiple starters become UFA's.


I believe Smith made his best offer from the get go .... knowing he couldnt go higher and that even this offer would make life difficult going forward should it be accepted.

What better way to handle the situation than to get it out of the way one way or another and move on to the next thing on the agenda?




There was a time, when I believed it went down just like you said & I was proud of our GM. Then after the Mario tweet, I really don't know what to think.

Did they not make an offer, like Mario insinuated? Did they offer the $12M a year & Mario thought it a non-offer? Did they offer $14M a year, putting their best foot forward, but did not attempt to match the Bills $16/yr & thus Mario considers that a non-offer?

I don't know. I'd like to think it was the last case, but I don't know.

So you're right, perhaps I shouldn't say "I don't think they handled it correctly" but rather say, "I don't know."

Wolf
03-18-2012, 12:39 PM
Buffalo has their work cut out for them

If I read correctly they had 29 sacks last year as a team and 10 of those came in one game

All I know is Barwin should have more Texan sacks than mario two years in a row :kitten:

thunderkyss
03-18-2012, 02:01 PM
Buffalo has their work cut out for them

If I read correctly they had 29 sacks last year as a team and 10 of those came in one game

All I know is Barwin should have more Texan sacks than mario two years in a row :kitten:

How many sacks did the Houston Texans have in 2010?


:kitten:

G27RR
03-18-2012, 06:30 PM
how many sacks did the houston texans have in 2010?


:kitten:

2010 - 30
2011 - 44

thunderkyss
03-18-2012, 07:01 PM
Buffalo has their work cut out for them

If I read correctly they had 29 sacks last year as a team and 10 of those came in one game
:kitten:


How many sacks did the Houston Texans have in 2010?


:kitten:


2010 - 30
2011 - 44

Did you forget the little kitty, or did you miss the sarcasm?

Texan_Bill
03-18-2012, 07:01 PM
I'm not gonna vote because it really doesn't matter to me who has more sacks.

What matters to me is the "D's" overall production. What matters to m is the value of Barwin / Reed over Super(rich) Mario.

*DISCLAIMER*
I like Mario and really wish the Texans could've resigned him. That said, if Buffalo is willing to overspend and I mean REALLY overspend for him, so be it... Good luck Mario. It's all about winning, no? ;)

G27RR
03-18-2012, 07:44 PM
Did you forget the little kitty, or did you miss the sarcasm?

No, I got it, but I wanted to see what someone might say if I put the actual numbers right out there. I was sort of doing what I think you were doing. I don't use the emoticon thingies much, but I guess maybe I should have posted the kitty, too?

chicagotexan2
03-18-2012, 11:08 PM
I honestly think Barwin will have more sacks. Mario will more than likely get injured at some point in the season which will limit his production. Barwin also plays in a system that facilitates sacks. Mario if he can stay healthy should be good and he has a very good d-line to help him, but I just don't see it happening for him.

Esto ^^^^^

leebigeztx
03-19-2012, 12:08 AM
I like the way people say mario didn't elevate his teammates, but allen elevated minny defense to the bottom of the league.what about ware elevating dallas defense to the bottom half too. In fact, ware has been a monster, and their defense has sucked since greg ellis left. The only guys who can elevate a team is the qb. I watched the philly vs dallas when ware had 4 sacks and he was a non factor in the game.Why? The other players not playing well, philly scored like 40 on dallas. The ravens defense played well when lewis was out. We've also seen ray lewis urging mgmt to get some big bodies in front of him so he can be clean. Everyone remembers that game against kc when he was on skates.

Here is what I'm getting at,pressure leads to picks, coverage leads to sacks. If your lbs and dbs can't close windows in coverage, your pass rush will never get there. They're not coverage sacks, but you have to make the qb reset his feet and come off his 1st 2 reads. By the same token, if you don't stop the run and pressure the qb, your backend won't get any chance to get their hands on the ball. Everything links up to each other.

Seegara
03-19-2012, 09:40 AM
Barwin will lead the league.

ckhouston
03-19-2012, 09:48 AM
Barwin will lead the league.

I will go out on a limb and say that now that he knows he is the starter, Brooks Reed will make a run at the sack record. Watch.

Goatcheese
03-19-2012, 12:27 PM
I will go out on a limb and say that now that he knows he is the starter, Brooks Reed will make a run at the sack record. Watch.

I'll have what [s]he's having.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/MechDX/texanskoolaid.jpg

mussop
03-19-2012, 07:07 PM
Heard this morning that Mario's contract is heavily laden with injury clauses. So don't be surprised if Mario doesn't earn more than 20 million of that contract. The 50 million that was reported "GUARANTEED" has injury clauses in it. I guess it's "guaranteed" only if he stays healthy.

Has anyone else heard this?

Bubbajwp
03-19-2012, 07:16 PM
I think Watt vs. Mario would be a better question.


:stirpot:

cuppacoffee
03-20-2012, 09:46 AM
I'm good with Mario leaving the team, but I'm no fool to think Barwin will lead the league in sacks. He's just not that kind of athlete.

Not that I think Mario will lead the league in sacks, just saying I'm sure there will be plenty of players who will have more sacks than Barwin.

For the second time in his career, Mario will have teammates that will prevent QBs from stepping up into the pocket with ease. Last time that was the case, Mario averaged 1 sack per game.

Even though this scheme will lift Barwin above his own ability, he is no Demarcus Ware, no Shawn Merriman.

Watt is going to have to be our primary hell raiser, Barwin, Smith, & Reed are merely role players.


Yep. And if our previous QB would have had a decent Oline and receivers he would have made the pro-bowl. :lol:


:coffee:

thunderkyss
03-23-2012, 08:42 AM
Yep. And if our previous QB would have had a decent Oline and receivers he would have made the pro-bowl. :lol:


:coffee:

I understand the conjecture, but Mario has made it to the Pro Bowl twice, with little help. Mario has had double digit sacks.. with little help on the line, or in the secondary.

The only thing that has stopped Mario from getting double digit sacks has been his health. Not crawling up into the fetal position or repeatedly running out of bounds behind the LOS.

So there is a difference.

Same with the Haynesworth comparison. Haynseworth hadn't done squat until his "contract" year. He got paid, & didn't do squat from then on.

Mario just became the highest paid defensive player in the history of the league after two back-to-back seasons where he ended on IR.

David Carr is a back-up to one of the most durable QBs in the NFL.

The league knows what Mario can bring to a team.

Texan_Bill
03-23-2012, 09:08 AM
I understand the conjecture, but Mario has made it to the Pro Bowl twice, with little help. Mario has had double digit sacks.. with little help on the line, or in the secondary.


Yup.. His second and third years. Hasn't been to a Pro-Bowl or had double digit sacks, since.

Corrosion
03-23-2012, 02:45 PM
I wish we coulda kept MW ..... but not at that pricetag.

Good luck :mario:

thunderkyss
03-23-2012, 04:41 PM
Yup.. His second and third years. Hasn't been to a Pro-Bowl or had double digit sacks, since.

& Andre didn't go last year either. When did Matt go last?

As I said, his reduction in performance was strictly because of his injuries. Not about the caliber player he is. If he can stay healthy next year, he'll be among the better DEs in the league again.

That's a big if... for any player. I wouldn't be surprised if the Buffalo Bills training staff finds a way to keep him healthy either.

Look, I'm pissed that he isn't here either. But let's not pretend he wasn't a damn good football player.

thunderkyss
03-23-2012, 04:44 PM
A better question to ask, is who will hold the Texans' single season sack record for 2012.

Either Barwin or Reed should be able to cover 14 if the team actually builds on what they were able to accomplish last year.