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View Full Version : Question for all the arm-chair GMs


TexansRule1
03-15-2012, 12:52 PM
I want to give our front offense the benefit of the doubt, especially with respect to offense. I think the track record since Kubiak took over supports it.

Consider...

Last year, I remember the pursuit of Vonta Leach as a free agent. Vonta Leach wanted 3 yrs, $11 mill. The Texans FO thought that was too rich and let him go to the Ravens. Many of the armchair GMs on this site thought that it was the worst move ever, complaining that Vonta Leach was a linchpin to a successful running game. However, without Leach's presence (and even with Casey out for several weeks), the team somehow managed to be ranked 2nd in the league rushing (versus 7th with Vonta).

So while the team is facing budget limitations, how many out there are willing to step up and say...(1) they were wrong about needing Leach (2) they are glad we still have the money that Leach didn't get so that we might be able to sign one or more OL (3) perhaps Kubiak and Smith know at least a little something about what they are doing for the offense.

XI CMURDER IX
03-15-2012, 12:55 PM
I also have something to add on to that.

Trust the front office with their decisions. They are there instead of YOU for a reason! Sure, there will be questionable moves, but we can't even scratch the surface of what they go through in a day, week, or year.

thunderkyss
03-15-2012, 12:56 PM
I want to give our front offense the benefit of the doubt, especially with respect to offense. I think the track record since Kubiak took over supports it.

Consider...

Last year, I remember the pursuit of Vonta Leach as a free agent. Vonta Leach wanted 3 yrs, $11 mill.

Not all of us was upset with Vonta moving on. I was against signing him, even after giving that money to Jacoby (which I also do not agree with).

But here's the deal.

For years, we've had armchair GMs getting on McNair for being cheap, but we've never in the life of this franchise had the capspace teams like the Bills, Bucs, or Bengals have had.

Now, we had to cut our starting right tackle to save cap space..... we had to cut the most likely QB to be able to start for us to get under the salary cap...

2/5ths of our OL is not under contract right now, another 5th was just cut & the worst player on the OL is not included in that 3/5ths.

No, I'm going back to wondering WTH we pay Rick Smith for.

Blake
03-15-2012, 12:58 PM
The "downgrade" from losing Leach was not worth the 11 million in their eyes. And seeing as how we are having cash issues this offseason, I am glad they didnt make that deal.

Kthx
03-15-2012, 12:59 PM
I want to give our front offense the benefit of the doubt, especially with respect to offense. I think the track record since Kubiak took over supports it.

Consider...

Last year, I remember the pursuit of Vonta Leach as a free agent. Vonta Leach wanted 3 yrs, $11 mill. The Texans FO thought that was too rich and let him go to the Ravens. Many of the armchair GMs on this site thought that it was the worst move ever, complaining that Vonta Leach was a linchpin to a successful running game. However, without Leach's presence (and even with Casey out for several weeks), the team somehow managed to be ranked 2nd in the league rushing (versus 7th with Vonta).

So while the team is facing budget limitations, how many out there are willing to step up and say...(1) they were wrong about needing Leach (2) they are glad we still have the money that Leach didn't get so that we might be able to sign one or more OL (3) perhaps Kubiak and Smith know at least a little something about what they are doing for the offense.

You fail to mention the fact that we high a much larger share of he pie when it came to ToP though due to the fact that our defense could actually stop the other offense. I still believe getting rid of Vonta last year was a bad idea, look how much better Rice looked comparatively.

http://www.nfl.com/player/rayrice/941/profile

The Cush
03-15-2012, 01:10 PM
Not all of us was upset with Vonta moving on. I was against signing him, even after giving that money to Jacoby (which I also do not agree with).

But here's the deal.

For years, we've had armchair GMs getting on McNair for being cheap, but we've never in the life of this franchise had the capspace teams like the Bills, Bucs, or Bengals have had.

Now, we had to cut our starting right tackle to save cap space..... we had to cut the most likely QB to be able to start for us to get under the salary cap...

2/5ths of our OL is not under contract right now, another 5th was just cut & the worst player on the OL is not included in that 3/5ths.

No, I'm going back to wondering WTH we pay Rick Smith for.

Rick Smith found all those guys to begin with except for Winston, they traded a 6th for Myers and Brisel was an UDFA. They got great production from them cheaply and now they've grown out of their contracts and are looking to get paid, its just the nature of the game and we can't keep them all. His job now is to try to retain them or move on and find their replacements. The FO has proven they can put a line together using anywhere from a 1st round pick (Duane Brown), to cheap FA signings (Wade Smith), to even lower end resources like how Myers and Brisiel came about.

Ole Miss Texan
03-15-2012, 01:16 PM
Rick Smith found all those guys to begin with except for Winston, they traded a 6th for Myers and Brisel was an UDFA. They got great production from them cheaply and now they've grown out of their contracts and are looking to get paid, its just the nature of the game and we can't keep them all. His job now is to try to retain them or move on and find their replacements. The FO has proven they can put a line together using anywhere from a 1st round pick (Duane Brown), to cheap FA signings (Wade Smith), to even lower end resources like how Myers and Brisiel came about.
Agreed. The world keep turning, time keeps ticking, and we just gotta keep moving. None of this is the end of the world. Our FO just has to keep doing what they do. I think they do a good job of finding quality undervalued guys that will produce for us. Next man up!

Marcus
03-15-2012, 01:27 PM
Armchair GMs ?????

Lately. all I seen from armchair GMs is pulling a bunch of numbers out of their asses to make people think they know what the hell is going on, when they don't have the slightest clue.

b0ng
03-15-2012, 01:28 PM
I don't think that Rick Smith or Kubiak is infallible with their decisions for the Texans, but I do think they are in the upper half of front offices in terms of drafting and acquiring talent. I get worried when we start losing defensive pieces as it seems to take us longer to replace talent there than it does in the offense.

Not paying Leach was the right move. As much as I loved him being the coke machine, you can't pay a guy that much money when he's not on the field in a lot of formations. Means I'm also in favor of asking Demeco to take a paycut or a restructure, or he gets the Winston treatment.

IDEXAN
03-15-2012, 01:31 PM
What's happened to the Texans this week is the football equivalence of financial insolvency - they had to liquidate valuable assets to keep their heads above water and continue operations.
CFOs in business sometimes loose their jobs for this kind of incompetance though I'd be surprised if company CEO McNair would go so far as to dump Rick Smith, but then if he did it would not be the first stunner Texans fans have had this week.

drunkcookie
03-15-2012, 01:37 PM
You fail to mention the fact that we high a much larger share of he pie when it came to ToP though due to the fact that our defense could actually stop the other offense. I still believe getting rid of Vonta last year was a bad idea, look how much better Rice looked comparatively.

http://www.nfl.com/player/rayrice/941/profile

Look how much better? It really wasn't that much better... Sure, TDs went up (but what about Ravens total rushing TDs, not just one player's rush TDs), but yardage was only 124 yds better, and yards per carry only went up .7 yards...

He only had 25 more yards this year than in '09 and averaged less per carry...

Get that outta here...act like he doubled production or something...

Ole Miss Texan
03-15-2012, 01:40 PM
What's happened to the Texans this week is the football equivalence of financial insolvency - they had to liquidate valuable assets to keep their heads above water and continue operations.
CFOs in business sometimes loose their jobs for this kind of incompetance though I'd be surprised if company CEO McNair would go so far as to dump Rick Smith, but then if he did it would not be the first stunner Texans fans have had this week.

Insolvency? No I think our company just had a lot of Producers that are looking for substantial pay raises. Our CEO is thinking the company can continue making decent earnings by finding new producers at half the cost. Shareholders would probably agree to such a move. Particularly if there are a couple other key employees and executives that they anticipate paying next year.

Porky
03-15-2012, 01:55 PM
This whole offseason to this point is one giant fail. The consistently good teams manage the cap, aquire talent at a fair price point, draft well, keep good players and release ones they can part with and promote from whithin. The Texans have some of these points down pretty well, others not so much and the cap management is atrocious right now.

And whoever thought it was a great idea to release Winston while retaining Jacoby Jones needs to be strung up, quartered, and flambayed over hot coals.

badboy
03-15-2012, 02:10 PM
At the time I was ok with letting him go but looking back I think I was wrong and it was a bad decision. Sure it would have cost but we could have deducted Vicker's salary (not much but would reduce Leach a bit) and Vickers could have been our pro bowler rather than theirs. How much better would our backs have been with Vontae? I don't think Leach would have began as poorly as Vickers did either. Jacoby should have been the one not re-signed and money would have equaled out. We would not be looking for a FB to protect our QB and block for our guys and we would have been forced to draft a WR last year and might not be in shape we are now.

Texanfan4ever
03-15-2012, 02:13 PM
Amen to that Porky! What the heck is that about? I don't want to watch him do his line dance again all next year and then lose yards. OMG! Edspecially now that we are really starting over with our OLine it seems. I'm sick! And very disappointed.

JamesBill
03-15-2012, 02:22 PM
Horrific drafting got us here. Thanks Rick Smith.

NastyNate
03-15-2012, 02:27 PM
Rick Smith found all those guys to begin with except for Winston, they traded a 6th for Myers and Brisel was an UDFA. They got great production from them cheaply and now they've grown out of their contracts and are looking to get paid, its just the nature of the game and we can't keep them all. His job now is to try to retain them or move on and find their replacements. The FO has proven they can put a line together using anywhere from a 1st round pick (Duane Brown), to cheap FA signings (Wade Smith), to even lower end resources like how Myers and Brisiel came about.

Plus the effectiveness of Bill Kollar, I think we have a pretty good tandem to produce capable linemen for the ZBS scheme here in Houston. I'm not too worried about Butler playing RT, or caldwell stepping in with a full offseason and OTA's of taking first team reps in the right guard position. There will be a dropoff, but we'll figure it out. We need to resign Myers though if the price is reasonable.

Nate

AMartin56
03-15-2012, 02:30 PM
I hate that Jacoby is still here as well but I think he's still around for a couple of reasons:

Kubiak likes system guys and thinks that Jacoby's experience in our system makes him more valuable than a rookie would be (I don't agree)

and more importantly:

This is payback for all the drafts where we whiffed on defense (especially the secondary). We would have upgraded the WR position long ago if it wasn't for all the scrambling for defensive backs over the last few years. Which leads us back to Kubiak setting us back with his 'I'll hire my no experience buddies as defensive coaches' for so many years prior to hiring Wade.

Iceman16
03-15-2012, 02:30 PM
I want to give our front offense the benefit of the doubt, especially with respect to offense. I think the track record since Kubiak took over supports it.

Consider...

Last year, I remember the pursuit of Vonta Leach as a free agent. Vonta Leach wanted 3 yrs, $11 mill. The Texans FO thought that was too rich and let him go to the Ravens. Many of the armchair GMs on this site thought that it was the worst move ever, complaining that Vonta Leach was a linchpin to a successful running game. However, without Leach's presence (and even with Casey out for several weeks), the team somehow managed to be ranked 2nd in the league rushing (versus 7th with Vonta).

So while the team is facing budget limitations, how many out there are willing to step up and say...(1) they were wrong about needing Leach (2) they are glad we still have the money that Leach didn't get so that we might be able to sign one or more OL (3) perhaps Kubiak and Smith know at least a little something about what they are doing for the offense.

Lol? We didn't need Leach. We couldn't afford him and we made the right decision in letting him walk. Kubiak still doesn't know dick. You've got your homer goggles on.

NastyNate
03-15-2012, 02:31 PM
I hate that Jacoby is still here as well but I think he's still around for a couple of reasons:

Kubiak likes system guys and thinks that Jacoby's experience in our system makes him more valuable than a rookie would be (I don't agree)

and more importantly:

This is payback for all the drafts where we whiffed on defense (especially the secondary). We would have upgraded the WR position long ago if it wasn't for all the scrambling for defensive backs over the last few years. Which leads us back to Kubiak setting us back with his 'I'll hire my no experience buddies as defensive coaches' for so many years prior to hiring Wade.

Jacoby can block and is still a capable returner regardless of a boneheaded play in the playoffs. I think that's the only reason he's still here.

noxiousdog
03-15-2012, 02:34 PM
and yards per carry only went up .7 yards...

Only? That's huge. That's the difference between a star (> 4.2 ypc) and a scrub (< 3.5 ypc)


I wouldn't attribute all that to Vonta though. They also added a credible threat at WR which makes safeties play off the line.

Iceman16
03-15-2012, 02:34 PM
Jacoby can block and is still a capable returner regardless of a boneheaded play in the playoffs. I think that's the only reason he's still here.
Yeah. Man, too bad he's bad at everything else, right?

santo
03-15-2012, 02:34 PM
I think Jacoby is still here because the Texans are waiting for training camp to start so they can find a replacement for him. At least I hope so.

Iceman16
03-15-2012, 02:35 PM
Only? That's huge. That's the difference between a star (> 4.2 ypc) and a scrub (< 3.5 ypc)
4.2 YPC is not star numbers at all.

AMartin56
03-15-2012, 02:35 PM
Jacoby can block and is still a capable returner regardless of a boneheaded play in the playoffs. I think that's the only reason he's still here.

I just can't agree with that. He goes sideways more than forward, doesn't judge fair catches very well and because of it catches way too many balls on the first hop.

He might occasionally break one but the risk vs reward isn't worth it IMO.

Runner
03-15-2012, 02:38 PM
Confidence in the front office? No.

They've had one very good year and they've been here more than half a decade. Ask me again next year, but as it stands now last season was the anomaly.

noxiousdog
03-15-2012, 03:08 PM
4.2 YPC is not star numbers at all.

Not for a single year, no.

Foster was 'only' 4.4.

Regardless, you could move it to 3.8 and 4.5 and it's a legit statement. .7 ypa is huge.

drunkcookie
03-15-2012, 03:12 PM
Only? That's huge. That's the difference between a star (> 4.2 ypc) and a scrub (< 3.5 ypc)


I wouldn't attribute all that to Vonta though. They also added a credible threat at WR which makes safeties play off the line.

I don't think +.7 yp carry is THAT huge, but i will admit i probably downplayed it a bit...

Either way, Rice's average this year with Leach is still .6 yards less than his '09 average...

Ole Miss Texan
03-15-2012, 03:24 PM
Leach and Mario would both make the Texans a better team. But neither of them are worth keeping for the price of their new contracts. It's that simple.

:barman:

NastyNate
03-15-2012, 03:28 PM
I just can't agree with that. He goes sideways more than forward, doesn't judge fair catches very well and because of it catches way too many balls on the first hop.

He might occasionally break one but the risk vs reward isn't worth it IMO.

I'm looking at the perspective of everyone in the front office. We're a run first team, and Jacoby can block. His average returning is still in the top half of the league. That's exactly what the front office sees and yes you can make the argument that he goes east west before north south quite a bit, he still is a "capable returner". That's why Jacoby is still here.

Nate

G27RR
03-15-2012, 03:30 PM
Leach and Mario would both make the Texans a better team. But neither of them are worth keeping for the price of their new contracts. It's that simple.

:barman:

Exactly.

IDEXAN
03-15-2012, 04:42 PM
Insolvency? No I think our company just had a lot of Producers that are looking for substantial pay raises. Our CEO is thinking the company can continue making decent earnings by finding new producers at half the cost. Shareholders would probably agree to such a move. Particularly if there are a couple other key employees and executives that they anticipate paying next year.
I think it's a valid analogy because in my view Smith has mismanaged the financial component of his roster to the extent that its aggregate has exceeded the cred limit/cap-total Smith must operate within. Think of the cap-limit he had to get under Monday as an acceleratiion clause that he had a mandatory obligation to get under and he met it by selling off a few feet of frontage from the side of his yard in the form of his RT. But then there's your interpritation which is also OK.

Norg
03-15-2012, 05:13 PM
losing leech didnt seem to effect foster that much


Losing schaub during the Div playoff round seemed to hurt alot tho thats prob the main thing i know LOL

Iceman16
03-15-2012, 05:36 PM
I don't think +.7 yp carry is THAT huge
It is that huge

drunkcookie
03-15-2012, 06:25 PM
It is that huge



Basically my point is it's not that huge when trying to judge a FB's impact on the number... It's still 4+ yds per carry and still less than 5...same as it was the year before... It's not like he went from 2.7 to 4.7... THAT'S huge...

thunderkyss
03-15-2012, 07:44 PM
At the time I was ok with letting him go but looking back I think I was wrong and it was a bad decision. Sure it would have cost but we could have deducted Vicker's salary (not much but would reduce Leach a bit) and Vickers could have been our pro bowler rather than theirs. How much better would our backs have been with Vontae? I don't think Leach would have began as poorly as Vickers did either. Jacoby should have been the one not re-signed and money would have equaled out. We would not be looking for a FB to protect our QB and block for our guys and we would have been forced to draft a WR last year and might not be in shape we are now.

Other than the fact that we had to resign David Anderson, because KDub & Jacoby were our only healthy WRs... I think I see your point.

bckey
03-15-2012, 08:05 PM
This whole offseason to this point is one giant fail. The consistently good teams manage the cap, aquire talent at a fair price point, draft well, keep good players and release ones they can part with and promote from whithin. The Texans have some of these points down pretty well, others not so much and the cap management is atrocious right now.

And whoever thought it was a great idea to release Winston while retaining Jacoby Jones needs to be strung up, quartered, and flambayed over hot coals.

Confidence in the front office? No.

They've had one very good year and they've been here more than half a decade. Ask me again next year, but as it stands now last season was the anomaly.


Porky and Runner pretty much some up my feelings about the Texans thus far.

TexanBacker93
03-15-2012, 09:41 PM
Not all of us was upset with Vonta moving on. I was against signing him, even after giving that money to Jacoby (which I also do not agree with).

But here's the deal.

For years, we've had armchair GMs getting on McNair for being cheap, but we've never in the life of this franchise had the capspace teams like the Bills, Bucs, or Bengals have had.

Now, we had to cut our starting right tackle to save cap space..... we had to cut the most likely QB to be able to start for us to get under the salary cap...

2/5ths of our OL is not under contract right now, another 5th was just cut & the worst player on the OL is not included in that 3/5ths.

No, I'm going back to wondering WTH we pay Rick Smith for.

I've never really understood this sentiment that has been out there. Have we ever been in a situation where we weren't close to the cap? I think in the first 5 seasons we constantly had bad contracts that killed us, but I don't remember us having tons of room. I didn't think McNair was cheap, we just didn't use our money wisely.

thunderkyss
03-15-2012, 11:01 PM
Leach and Mario would both make the Texans a better team. But neither of them are worth keeping for the price of their new contracts. It's that simple.

:barman:

The only thing that makes Vonta not worth $3M to us, is that he didn't fit our plans. That FB position is going to be something special, with a guy like Casey back there. Remember when we signed Cook..... he was an average to poor blocker & supposedly a better receiver out of the back field.

We weren't looking for a sledge like Vonta when we found him either, I don't think he earned his spot until after two or three games when the coaches realized he was making some monster holes & laying some "grown men" straight the F out.

But, when the OL is blocking like they should & the RB is reading & cutting like he should, we don't need that sledge hammer, we can get by with a maul, or a big ball-peen.

pec0sb0b
03-16-2012, 03:41 AM
At the time I was a fan of Leach but knew the FO would never pay him big money. I think they were intrigued with the potential of using Casey as an H-back and only signed Vickers in case the attempt fell flat...then Casey was injured. We gained more ypc in a singleback formation than an I-formation in both 2010 and 2011, which makes sense since we used a fullback more in short yardage situations.

The fact is that player personnel decisions have to both follow some sort of a budget and stay under the cap. Case in point: We all heard that the Bears were in the chase for Mario Williams, which made zero sense if you thought about it. They very may well have had the cap room but what owner would carry two defensive ends earning 15 million apiece? 25% of your entire payroll? C'mon, man. Could any team afford to have Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald on the same roster?

If they resign Myers or Brisiel for fat cash it would probably be a long-term mistake in terms of cap and attempts to avoid overspending at one position or group. If they come back and sign on the cheap after finding a soft market in free-agency, cool. For now we just have to relax and sip a little more Smithiak kool-aid and trust that this glorified zone-blocking scheme system they've built can be made to work on aftermarket replacement parts from AutoZone and Colorado State. I'm kind of in denial at this point and hope they draft someone that can start at right tackle, as I can see Butler being abused by some of the defensive ends around the league.

Demeco Ryans is making way too much money given his limited snaps but I don't think they can cut him due to the structure of his contract and would still get the full cap hit this year and next. As much as we loved him as fans he's hurting the team in terms of available money. Maybe they can trade him to a 4-3 team that can get more value from him. Anyway, I think they need an ILB that can cover in the base package and stay on the field on passing downs (sub-packages). Cushing can rush the quarterback from inside if they have someone next to him that can chase a slot receiver or tight end. I think Cushing secretly hopes that Payton signs in Tennessee where he can help him with that little neck problem. I particularly like seeing that special pouty face Manning makes as he looks for someone to blame when he's sacked.

Antonio Smith is getting into the fat part of one of the bigger free agent contracts the Texans ever signed. He's one of the more disruptive interior pass rushers around but get too many penalties. I don't thing they can
afford to tie up nearly $8 million in cap at this positionafter this year. It wouldn't surprise me if they looked for another 5-technique defensive end that can stay on the field on passing downs (like JJ Watt) this draft or next and said sayonara to the ninja.

As much as I dislike saying it, they'll probably keep both Jones and Walters. They make about 3 million each and that's not a lot for a receiver that catch the ball about half the time (Jones) or catch the ball and fall down (Walter). Just please don't make me watch Jones field anymore punts or kicks, please.

I think we can now safely dispense with all pre-free-agency mock-drafts and team need assessments. Still want them to use the #26 pick on a wide receiver? I think O-line is higher on their big board than we realized. I'm
also seeing linebackers, inside and outside on their draft board. Punters and kickers will be on there as well. Can we please get through a season without a rookie busted for PEDs? I also think my obsessive desire for a big
nose tackle that can dominate opposing centers will remain unfulfilled. Maybe I can find a therapy group for that.

Maybe someday someone will enlighten me why they couldn't get anything for Eric Winston. His contract wasn't that big compared to many starting right tackles. I know they had to make cuts to get under the cap by March 13. It seems they could have shopped him at an earlier date for a second or third as they didn't just make this decision a couple of days ago. His release seemed to generate a lot of interest. I'm just sayin'...